I know there has been a lot of discussion about the somewhat recent BLM "nerf", but I think the issue still needs to be addressed in a more comprehensive way.

Issues with BLM

XP parties
BLMs seem to be functioning just fine up through around level 60-62, but once parties get close enough to start XPing in Treasures of Aht Urhgan zones, the hyper-active spawn times of enemies in these zones makes BLMs very unwanted in experience point parties, as they must spend the majority of their time resting - which is not possible when the parties are engaging new enemies every 30-60 seconds.

HNM
Aside from some previously mana-burnable arena fights, the Magic Resistance nerf hasn't done all that much to affect BLM damage at all on HNMs. I was watching a Fafnir fight the other day with several BLMs, and despite a hefty amount of free nuking (non-magic bursted), they were still dealing pretty much normal damage. In other words, the Magic Resistance nerf seems to be a paper tiger except in time-critical battles like BCNMs.

Merit Points
Things aren't quite so bleak on the front for BLMs once they pass level 70 or so, since they can then join in manaburn parties to reach 75, but even so, the best manaburn parties still don't don't quite hold their own with the best TP-burn melee parties.

Proposed solutions
Far be it for me to complain about the state of affairs without suggesting a fix, so here's one idea to address the above problems.

Make Magic Bursts temporarily reduce monster defense, the duration of which is linked to the amount of damage done by the strongest magic burst.

This gives melees a reason to invite BLMs into TP-burn, since they can increase the killing speed of the party even only casting one spell per fight.

Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.

Make elemental damage spells that are not accompanied by a Magic Burst increase the Magic Resistance of a NM more than a Magic Bursted spell.
This is just a safety measure to encourage players to include melees into their strategies when fighting NMs, rather than just nuking them down to nothing (which is still happening).

Increase the Magic Resistance limits of various NMs
I'm still seeing 2000+ damage magic bursts on HNMs who have been repeatedly freenuked on a number of difficult NMs. That seems way too high - the penalty for misusing black magic should be much stronger IMO.


Icemage

Hmm. If I'm reading this correctly. I think that with a randomly nuked spell. Your "Free Nuke" magic resistance should go up, then with a Magic Bursted Spell, Magic Resistance should go down. I.E. If things are done according to SE, we'd kill stuff faster.

They really need to give old school PT some tougher mobs to kill at 75. The same way we level up from 1-60 : /

Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.


This looks rediculous. So you are stating what in this? WS do their basic damage and if two are a combination it results in the SC effect that is the bonus damage. It's already losing it's bonus by the fact that the SC effect (bonus damage) doesn't fire.

Aside from that it's quite clear how the system works in this matter and suggestion is just asking to break the game design which is likely to result in horrible effects. Then of course this also is forcing WSs to be used only for SC'ing effect or else they are to become practically worthless.

Don't know the parties you've been in but in ToAU the ones I've done our BLM often only needs to cast 1 spell every other mob fight. His attack is key integral part of ending the fight in approx. 8 seconds. Party even designed the stratedgy for this purpose with two attack stradegies 1 involving when the BLM has MP and 1 for when the BLM needs to recover.

In effect while the BLM has MP we kill faster then the zone can regenerate the mobs, when he's out of MP and recovering we are fairly in line with the zone's regeneration. It does quite well with a good party and a BLM. Also in ToAU after our SC and the BLMs MB the mob is either dead after that or very close to it, don't see how reducing it's defense is going to be of any benefit.

They really need to give old school PT some tougher mobs to kill at 75. The same way we level up from 1-60 : / Why would anyone go up against tougher mobs when the ToAU areas are so easy for most of the games population?

However, there was a problem with the way Black magic did damage, as in there was no real elemental strengths except against just a few mobs like elementals. Something that was 'strong' to Thunder should be weak to Stone but unless you were fighting a Thunder Elemental, Thunder would always do significantly more damage unless you had the next tier Stone but not next tier Thunder.

Even that though is pretty much irrelevent. If ToAU mobs weren't as easy as they are and the change to elemental resistence was implimented, no one would notice. The problem isn't the change. Most jobs can level faster in the new zones without a BLM then they can with so invites dry up. The player base is always going to do things the easiest way and only the easiest way.

Maybe I'm just "Old Skool," but I still feel that a BLM is still a very important part of building a party. Sometimes it does take the BLM a little while to adjust to the fast killing pace, but after a while they're doing a lot of work later on in the chains to keep the killing flowing. So when I hear BLMs can't get invites, it's a shock to me.

I'm still a guy who really enjoys the skillchain. So in my static, we set up a Skillchain or two for the mages to blow up. But I still feel that BLMs are needed to finish off the mobs fast, and I do the best I can to invite them. Problem I'm running into is that some of them are "Manaburn ONRY," or just aren't any around seeking. I've had to take to sending /tells to BLMs that aren't seeking hoping they'd like to join us anyway.

I however would like more VT~IT+ mobs for Lv.75! As much as I do enjoy a good TP Burn, (Nothing like 27k+ EXP in 3hrs in Sky.) but I also like a more "Traditional Setup" with a PLD and a big Skillchain to destroy mobs for good 7~10k an hour. (PLD, MNK, DRK, BLM, RDM, SMN has worked well for me at one of the few VT~IT camps at Lv.75. 1k+ Asurian Fists > 1k~1.5k Spiral Hell, then all 3 Mages MB for roughly 2500~3000dmg. Awesome EXP provided you can find a BLM.)

I like the idea of lowered DEF after a Magic Burst, but in a lot of instances I don't think there's much mob left after the MB at the later levels, and at the lower levels BLMs are already doing most of the work and are popular party members. (Usually.)

This looks rediculous. So you are stating what in this? WS do their basic damage and if two are a combination it results in the SC effect that is the bonus damage. It's already losing it's bonus by the fact that the SC effect (bonus damage) doesn't fire.
Have you been in a TP-burn party lately? No one skillchains because the bonus damage is negligible and there's no BLM to magic burst anyway.


Aside from that it's quite clear how the system works in this matter and suggestion is just asking to break the game design which is likely to result in horrible effects. Then of course this also is forcing WSs to be used only for SC'ing effect or else they are to become practically worthless.
Reading comprehension is your friend Macht.

My suggestion was that as long as WS were used in rapid succession (i.e. within 5 seconds of each other), they'd suffer a penalty if they don't skillchain. If you do it solo, and no one follows up, there's no harm, no foul. This leaves melees alone, except when they make poor decisions.

And for your information, the game design is already broken. FFXI's combat mechanics revolve around skillchains and magic bursts, and there are precious few parties that do either one these days post 62.


Don't know the parties you've been in but in ToAU the ones I've done our BLM often only needs to cast 1 spell every other mob fight. His attack is key integral part of ending the fight in approx. 8 seconds. Party even designed the stratedgy for this purpose with two attack stradegies 1 involving when the BLM has MP and 1 for when the BLM needs to recover.
My last 20 parties in ToAU zones contained either no BLMs, or was a manaburn party. No one mixes BLMs into a TP-burn party, and no one brings anything except a refresher or two to a manaburn party. THAT is how broken the mechanics are now.


In effect while the BLM has MP we kill faster then the zone can regenerate the mobs, when he's out of MP and recovering we are fairly in line with the zone's regeneration. It does quite well with a good party and a BLM. Also in ToAU after our SC and the BLMs MB the mob is either dead after that or very close to it, don't see how reducing it's defense is going to be of any benefit.
Maybe because you won't need to magic burst with a super-hyper-expensive Tier IV, -ga III or AM II nuke? The only things I see BLM75s cast these days are Ancient II, IV or -ga III for damage. Those spells cost an enormous amount of MP, and result in a LOT of downtime for the BLM.

Face it, BLMs heavily disrupt the flow of a TP-burn party. They alter the kill speed on certain spawns, which increases the likelihood of multiple spawns at a bad moment when you're not equipped to handle the extra load, and they require a lot of extra care since you can't roam very well with them for fear of leaving them stuck behind a spawn.

I had a BLM in my semi-static party on my RDM from level 63 to level 71. She was outparsed by the melees in every session, and basically was only there to cast the odd free nuke or Sleep/ga II. She wasn't a bad player; it's just that BLMs just don't work well in that sort of setup. Not that we did poorly, but we could have done even better had we replaced her with another melee, and we all knew it.


Icemage

Don't know about your server then. Guess it's really F**** up. I see either TP Burn, Mana Burn, or the regular party. This is post 62 and see all 3 work well, the mages in the parties I've been in don't even have AM II spells, they've used cheaper spells since finding they dealt just enough to finish the mob after a Sidewinder -> ______ skillchain that deals one part of the damage.

Frequently BLM doesn't need to rest once the area has been cleared but still does just so he wouldn't be a burden. We've killed mobs in 8 sec. some times in successions of 12 sec. each mob and not once had our BLM suffer. Which is why I don't see this problem. BLM hardly, if even, goes below half their MP.

Aside from that if you've forgot the SC result for HNMs are not just effecting BLMs they effect WSs as well.

It isn't the game design that's broken, it's players logic that is thinking that getting a 3rd SC damage almost equal to your closing damage is insignificant. I've closed many Transfixition SCs for near 80%-95% of the damage my WS did. If you want to add that little annoyance it really wouldn't do much but encourage a TP party to have at least a job that can SC almost anything with 1 WS. For example Sidewinder can open and close quite a few combinations, as well as many of SAMs WSs doing the same. Haven't discouraged TP only altered it's party aspects if anything.

Make Magic Bursts temporarily reduce monster defense, the duration of which is linked to the amount of damage done by the strongest magic burst.

This gives melees a reason to invite BLMs into TP-burn, since they can increase the killing speed of the party even only casting one spell per fight.

Interesting, but is that really to crossbow users who use their bolts to do this or people who pick up an acid-type dagger? This seems like adding an ability to an already powerful character at the expense of something done by characters who are less likely (possibly slightly so, but still) to get an invite such as a RNG or THF.




Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.

That probably wouldn't do much. A lot of times TP accumulation speed is so varied among the fighters that when they launch, they're not even close to the window anyway. I think it would merely be an annoyance.


Make elemental damage spells that are not accompanied by a Magic Burst increase the Magic Resistance of a NM more than a Magic Bursted spell.
This is just a safety measure to encourage players to include melees into their strategies when fighting NMs, rather than just nuking them down to nothing (which is still happening).

As you say, you only notice the MR on time-intensive NMs anyway. It just forces cycling of elements or even flip-flopping. I don't have any idea how long the MR burst lasts, but are you suggesting increasing MR on normal spells so much that even just casting a non-burst is detrimental to the effort? There are some lines in here that are very difficult to see--on one side, there's what we have now, on the other there's "BLM? {No, Thanks}" in BCNM which, I believe, is the opposite of what you want. This would be a tweaking issue with the NM MR system. Magic Bursts happen infrequently enough that especially on BCNM this could potentially be crippling to a BLM. What's good for HNM is not necessarily good for BCNM. Perhaps a tweak to the HNMs individually would shake things up a bit rather than applying the changes to the class.


Increase the Magic Resistance limits of various NMs
I'm still seeing 2000+ damage magic bursts on HNMs who have been repeatedly freenuked on a number of difficult NMs. That seems way too high - the penalty for misusing black magic should be much stronger IMO.


Again, this appears to be an issue where the HNM power is too low for the "average" HNM group. That being, a large, finely tuned group of very specialized characters. Perhaps this was not what SE had envisioned when they designed the HNM's and this might call for a little adjustment. This is more along the lines with what I said above. Adjustments to individual HNM's might be in order. Of course, increasing the power of an HNM is also dangerous in that it then locks out smaller groups from HNM activities and places the advantage more squarely upon the uber-HNMLS groups, which, at least on Asura, do not seem like they would be enjoyable to me--the leaders are draconian, strict, greedy, and generally unpleasant as far as I've seen--forcing the destruction of alternate LS pearls, forcibly pre-empting activites such as XP parties without even recommending an apology. All in all, very unfriendly people with whom I do not think I shall ever have any association with. That being, of course, an example of two larger HNMLS's on Asura--I have no idea how many there are--I just know I'd never be in either one of those. I suppose I've been "colored" badly by the bad experiences others have had with HNMLS's, but I'd rather try to do Vrtra with my more friendly non-HNMLS buddies than sell my soul to some stuck-up draconian oligarchy just so I can kill a big monster. Of course, spawn times as they are, and powerful as HNMLS's and Gilseller groups are, I don't think I'll ever actually see an HNM whose name is shown in red.

Don't know about your server then. Guess it's really F**** up. I see either TP Burn, Mana Burn, or the regular party. This is post 62 and see all 3 work well
i don't know what server you are at, but it seems fun in there.
all i see post level60 is TP-Burn which includes No BLM at all, and Colibri (which is waaay too weak and a EXP PT's best friend) likes to reflect magic on anyone in the party like... this:
BLM starts casting Firaga.
Colibri starts casting Firaga.
PT wiped.

i've casted Stone1 on one of them as DRG/RDM and got reflected for over 30DMG, this is one step BLM suffers around that level.
make BLM un-reflectable?

edit:
i'de say make chains on IT mob a 50+EXP boost, and keep chain on T mob at 20EXP that way players will consider fighting IT mobs and Skillchaining (fun).

ToAU mobs just have way too low defense. That's why melees are overpowered on them.

They're very weak in general, compared to original, RoZ or CoP monsters of the same level, but especially they have terrible defense.

BLM is fine in places like Moongate, Uleguerand or Lufaise. But few melee DDs want to go there anymore because they can do much more damage to colibris, imps or puks.

HNMs needed to be made softer targets for melee to reduce the all-nuke-all-the-time strategies against them, but exp mobs were fine. What we got instead was new super weak exp mobs and no change to HNM. SE dropped the ball on rebalancing melee vs. magic damage.

BLM is still too strong on HNM relative to all other damage dealing jobs, but now in addition, they're left behind in exp as all physical DDs benefit hugely from the weakness of mobs.

So I'm still waiting for the update that says "The difficulty of certain monster types in Aht Urhgan areas has been adjusted."

Don't know about your server then. Guess it's really F**** up. I see either TP Burn, Mana Burn, or the regular party. This is post 62 and see all 3 work well, the mages in the parties I've been in don't even have AM II spells, they've used cheaper spells since finding they dealt just enough to finish the mob after a Sidewinder -> ______ skillchain that deals one part of the damage.
You had a standard Skillchain + Magic Burst party that has made 14K XP per hour? I find this highly doubtful. I had this setup at level 65 with a nearly perfect setup (RDM BLM BRD DD DD Tank), and we barely cracked 8K per hour going as fast as we could.


Frequently BLM doesn't need to rest once the area has been cleared but still does just so he wouldn't be a burden. We've killed mobs in 8 sec. some times in successions of 12 sec. each mob and not once had our BLM suffer. Which is why I don't see this problem. BLM hardly, if even, goes below half their MP.

Exaggerate a bit, do we? No BLM can fire off a nuke every 12 seconds and not be drained of MP. Not to mention that even in ToAU zones, respawn rates would not keep up with that sort of kill speed.


Aside from that if you've forgot the SC result for HNMs are not just effecting BLMs they effect WSs as well.
They do? Pretty much the only thing I do lately is HNM. Skillchain damage just isn't that impressive. It's nearly always at least partially resisted except by very weak NMs, so your "bonus damage" is usually minimal.


It isn't the game design that's broken, it's players logic that is thinking that getting a 3rd SC damage almost equal to your closing damage is insignificant. I've closed many Transfixition SCs for near 80%-95% of the damage my WS did.
And how many Transfixion skillchains did you have that got fully resisted down to 1/10th damage, and what was your average? I'm all ears - I did a lot of unusual skillchains while levelling Bard, and I can tell you even with Threnody on, neutral element skillchains rarely produce full damage more than 30% of the time when fighting VT+ or IT enemies; usually less. Even on monsters that are weak to an element (Fusion on Goblins, for instance), it's rare to see full damage from the skillchain.

Aside from level 2 or 3 skillchains agaisnt enemies that are weak to a specific element, skillchain bonus damage is extremely fickle and usually negligible.


If you want to add that little annoyance it really wouldn't do much but encourage a TP party to have at least a job that can SC almost anything with 1 WS. For example Sidewinder can open and close quite a few combinations, as well as many of SAMs WSs doing the same. Haven't discouraged TP only altered it's party aspects if anything.
I'm not trying to nerf melee here, only punish poor playing skills, and give BLMs an opportunity at the same time. If players don't want to form a skillchain, so be it, let them do them more than 5 seconds apart and it becomes a non-issue. I hardly think you'd switch melees simply because of this sort of change when all you'd have to do is wait a moment longer between weaponskills to avoid it entirely.


Icemage

You had a standard Skillchain + Magic Burst party that has made 14K XP per hour? I find this highly doubtful.

I've been in regular xp parties that have broken 12k an hour, but I have to note these were really good players, and I'm not talking about gear here, but about real skill. Although I'm aware that's kinda too much to ask from the vast majority of players.

(And yep I'm also aware even that is not as much xp as some burn parties make, but I don't care much about what others do or how much xp they get).



That being said, I think boosting SC-Magic Burst party play would be a good way to solve the issues most people have about TP-burns.

The moment people is able to kill VT-IT mobs fast enough in a regular party so they catch up with TP-burns in terms of xp/hr that's when people will stop complaining about Utsusemi, simply because it's all about XP/HR and not really about /nin melee.


Right now the game as it is seems to reward senseless spamming of WS, spells and melee attacks.

So, increasing the MB bonus and the SC damage (with it's correspondent resistence up period of time afterwards to avoid abuse) would be a good thing since it would encourage players to coordinate and get real advantages as a consecuence of playing skillfully.


Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.

I don't believe it to be a good thing to punish players for having poor playing skills, if players want to mindlessly spam WS then good for them, I'm more interested in rewarding those that put real thought, skill and effort in their party play.

All the experience I have with high level blm play is through observing others, but there certainly seems to be a problem to me. I've probably had a party with a blm in it twice at most in the last ten levels, and it's very common to see my 60s blm friend seeking for three hours in a night to no avail. Even at lower levels blms seem to be underappreciated. It took me five days of seeking with my 37 blm to get the two party invites I needed to get to 40 for CoP missions.

True or not, I think it would be a good thing to increase the benefit of actually coordinating a skillchain and magic burst. I don't think there's any arguement that renkei isn't a good play mechanic, but they're so rare to see nowadays. It seems to be the consensus that the additional damage from the skillchain effect is less than the damage that is lost by not having everyon fire off their WS at 100%, that is if one person gets to 150 tp by the time their partner gets to 100 tp, they would have been better off damage-wise to use their tp on 5 WS instead of 4 WS and 2 SC effects, since the SC effect will on average do less than half the damage of a WS, due to factors like resistance, misses, lag, and interrupting effects like sleep, stun, and amnesia. It's just so much easier to spam WS as soon as you get TP, and the results range from insignificantly worse to significantly better.

Have you been in a TP-burn party lately? No one skillchains because the bonus damage is negligible and there's no BLM to magic burst anyway.


Reading comprehension is your friend Macht.

My suggestion was that as long as WS were used in rapid succession (i.e. within 5 seconds of each other), they'd suffer a penalty if they don't skillchain. If you do it solo, and no one follows up, there's no harm, no foul. This leaves melees alone, except when they make poor decisions.

And for your information, the game design is already broken. FFXI's combat mechanics revolve around skillchains and magic bursts, and there are precious few parties that do either one these days post 62.


My last 20 parties in ToAU zones contained either no BLMs, or was a manaburn party. No one mixes BLMs into a TP-burn party, and no one brings anything except a refresher or two to a manaburn party. THAT is how broken the mechanics are now.


Maybe because you won't need to magic burst with a super-hyper-expensive Tier IV, -ga III or AM II nuke? The only things I see BLM75s cast these days are Ancient II, IV or -ga III for damage. Those spells cost an enormous amount of MP, and result in a LOT of downtime for the BLM.

Face it, BLMs heavily disrupt the flow of a TP-burn party. They alter the kill speed on certain spawns, which increases the likelihood of multiple spawns at a bad moment when you're not equipped to handle the extra load, and they require a lot of extra care since you can't roam very well with them for fear of leaving them stuck behind a spawn.

I had a BLM in my semi-static party on my RDM from level 63 to level 71. She was outparsed by the melees in every session, and basically was only there to cast the odd free nuke or Sleep/ga II. She wasn't a bad player; it's just that BLMs just don't work well in that sort of setup. Not that we did poorly, but we could have done even better had we replaced her with another melee, and we all knew it.


Icemage

This is essentially the same thing that was going on last year with arrowburns. No skillchains, no tactics, just burn. BLMs were never invited, except that ToA zones weren't in the picture just yet so the problem wasn't pronounced from 62-65+ as it is now for BLM specifically. High level merit zones were few back then and RNGs pretty much wiped the floor with every mob in places like sky, making EXP hell for any nearby PT hoping for some EXP that night.

However, I don't think we need to nerf the damage jobs do. There are lots of ways to fix this, but the problem is do we really want all PTs to become mage-dependant again? It took Sanction and Empress band combined to make chaining T and VT viable to players, it was valid well before these things, but back them we wanted IT++ and needed BLMs to make good EXP per hour happen.

It cannot be denied, ZM and CoP zones were rather inflexible toward melee and favorable to mages, ToA reversed that trend. ToA zones are unfavorable to mages in general, but incredibly unfavorable to BLM.

High respawn rate and physically weak mobs have forced the /NIN sub down everyone's throat and made TP burn more popular than ever, increase spawn times and up DEF a bit and this would change things and pull BLM back in to the picture.

People are content to think this game is perfectly fine so long as they're getting thier 10K+/limit point per hour, but lets face it, level 75 shouldn't be "bonus time" or a vacation from real PT tactics. It should be just as much work to merit as it was to EXP. Skillchains and magic bursts should be happening, but as of now, they're not.

I think it would be a good thing to increase the benefit of actually coordinating a skillchain and magic burst. I don't think there's any arguement that renkei isn't a good play mechanic, but they're so rare to see nowadays. It seems to be the consensus that the additional damage from the skillchain effect is less than the damage that is lost by not having everyon fire off their WS at 100%, that is if one person gets to 150 tp by the time their partner gets to 100 tp, they would have been better off damage-wise to use their tp on 5 WS instead of 4 WS and 2 SC effects, since the SC effect will on average do less than half the damage of a WS, due to factors like resistance, misses, lag, and interrupting effects like sleep, stun, and amnesia. It's just so much easier to spam WS as soon as you get TP, and the results range from insignificantly worse to significantly better.
Exactly. This is what I was talking about when I said the game mechanics were broken horribly by ToAU - the whole skillchaining system has been all but thrown away.

---

Previously, the "best" way to earn XP was to go after Incredibly Tough opponents. There wasn't any value in going after Very Tough enemies because you couldn't get enough spawns within range to make it worthwhile. Only in a few cases was this even possible, which is how roaming merit parties were created in the first place, originally in places like Shrine of Ru'Avitau and Kuftal Tunnel, which were the only zones that had monsters of the appropriate levels and quantities. Monk-burn King Ranperre's Tomb parties followed this general trend as well, substituting IT+ skeletons due to the damage bonus that monks receive against them, which effectively made them about equal to a Very Tough instead of borderline Incredibly Tough.

Going after Incredibly Tough enemies had its drawbacks, though. Melees had very poor accuracy against enemies with such a huge level gap, while black magic was guaranteed to land with at least a reasonable chance of accuracy, greatly assisted by Magic Bursts, which is why the original XP party dynamics included 2 melees and a nuker for damage.

Right around the release of ToAU, everything changed.

Many monsters in ToAU have few HP, low Evasion and low Defense for their respective levels, which was supposedly counterbalanced by having slightly stronger special attacks, but in practice the stronger specials aren't much of an issue because they have such a tiny time window to use those attacks. In addition, their spawn times are about three times faster than in other zones.

Add to this the improved accuracy that melees now enjoy, not only from improved gear, but from merit points and the ever-present use of sushi, and we now have a situation where the overall damage from BLMs over time is eclipsed by even average melees, as long as those melees receive a continual stream of enemies to rain destruction upon.

The whole premise for going after IT+ enemies is now gone, and the unfortunate victim of this change is that skillchains are now virtually non-existent in high level XP/merit parties. Sure, you can still go after IT+ enemies... but why? You can infinitely chain weaker T/VTs instead and make better XP, plus the 15% bonus for Sanction when the Candescence is active in the hands of players so your T/VT's are now treated as if they were VT/IT once you pass chain #4 (and with a good party, you can chain indefinitely) as far as XP earned per kill, while you're killing them in a fraction of the time.

Without a need to go after IT enemies, skillchains become meaningless because you can deal plenty of damage to T/VT's without any skillchains since you're not missing constantly, and without skillchains, the need for magic bursts goes away. With no need for magic bursts, the role of BLM in standard XP parties has completely vanished once ToAU zones are taken into account.

If this isn't broken game mechanics, I don't know what is.


Icemage

Without a need to go after IT enemies, skillchains become meaningless because you can deal plenty of damage to T/VT's without any skillchains since you're not missing constantly, and without skillchains, the need for magic bursts goes away. With no need for magic bursts, the role of BLM in standard XP parties has completely vanished once ToAU zones are taken into account.

If this isn't broken game mechanics, I don't know what is.


Icemage

Well just as a counterpoint, like I said earlier and you conceded above, RoZ and CoP favored mages. Was this a good thing, though? This left a lot of the melee player base LFG and unhappy. Fighting IT++ left players scrambling to find the easiest kind of IT++ mob they could... which mostly ended up being crabs from 53 onward.

A lot of melees got shafted because their damage just didn't look good on such mobs. Prices were high on accuracy gear because such gear was absolutely needed.

Fast forward to now and accuracy gear is much easier to get. Melee jobs can actually get EXP these days since the mobs don't require mages so harshly and people no longer have to dream about being a 75 THF or DRG.

SE could roll back a little on the EXP bonus given by sanction, though as a COR I wouldn't like that since people would end up demanding COR Roll more often as opposed to a useful buff. If they took away Sanction's EXP bonus, lots of players lose incentive to go to ToA areas to EXP.

And it would be hard to pry players out of ToA zones, I myself benefit greatly as RNG and COR to EXP there, Imperial Standing gets me out of a good bit of farming and I can turn that IS into ammo or tools by selling my imperial currency. It just can't be denied that economy is much more favorable now, stuff is cheaper.

Hate to say it, but with people whipped on TP burns, BLMs may have to do what I was often told to do as a melee. It made me groan. "Make your own PTs." Easier said than done, but its really the only thing that can be done right now.

I don't begrudge the parties that melees are getting - I think it's long past time when it was easier to level as a melee, considering that they consitute about 50% of the available job selections (and were abnormally represented by the playerbase, since a lot of players like to see the big damage numbers).

That being said, I'm disturbed by the fact that there is virtually no skillchaining going on at higher levels. Surely there is a happy medium somewhere in between where nukers aren't complete pariahs?


Icemage

Icemage said everything i wanted to say, i wrote SE though POL in the Suggestion
box aboutv possable more damage on SC and MBs since the AM II's hardly made an impact

Well, I don't really know how blm are doing party wise, so I won't really comment on that, I will say that I think they are just fine in parties and the blm that I have invited to my semi TP burn parties do just fine. But I also don't see what's wrong with warrior's using Gaxe, paladin tanks, or thiefs, so blm must not be getting any parties :P

That being said, I like most of your ideas, I think I would tweak 'em just a little bit:

Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.

I agree 100% with what Raydeus said about this, in addition, I'm olde school, I likes my sparkly skillchains and shiney magic bursts of death and destruction. The ONLY time I would not consider doing skillchains would be when fighting the Colibri family of monsters, I tried SC+MB on them, and Feather Tickle would almost always mess things up. So in general, IMO, and I do realise that this opinion seems to be in the minority since this thread is dealing with this problem, any mob that uses a move that keeps you from using a WS to SC with, be it feather tickle or amnesia (though I think that only affects job abilities) those would be the only mobs I wouldn't bother doing a SC on.

Make elemental damage spells that are not accompanied by a Magic Burst increase the Magic Resistance of a NM more than a Magic Bursted spell.
This is just a safety measure to encourage players to include melees into their strategies when fighting NMs, rather than just nuking them down to nothing (which is still happening).

Me likes :) What about making it so that magic bursts reduce a mobs magical resistance? But that can kinda tie in with the rest of my post:


You suggested making the mobs defense fall when a SC+MB is performed, I say maybe.

From my experiance, players are stuck in the mindset that Distortion is the endall SC to do, whether or not we have a thief in the party. You could be fighting Bombs, which are weak to fire, and people would STILL want to do a distortion SC + MB without a strong closer for distortion, why? Because it's teh best SC so STFU N00bzorz (yes, I've been told that actually) So, what about making Skillchains more interesting?

What I propose is that Skillchains have an added effect, maybe it's just the corresponding blm elemental enfeeble, but that wouldn't be enough IMO, I think it needs more.

Also, since no one wants to do a level 1 skillchain when they could do a level 2 or 3 skillchain, I think that each and every skillchain should either have it's own special thing to make it unique, so like you would get a different effect by doing a Fusion SC rather than a Liquefaction SC, even though both are fire. Or else since Liquefaction is a level 1 SC, Fusion should have the same effect but stronger because it's a level 2 SC.

And the effects could be anything, maybe a strong Def down, maybe a strong magical def down. Rdm complain that they don't get higher tier enfeebles, well why not have Paralyze III be the added effect for doing Impaction? What about Ice Spikes for the entire party for doing any of the Ice SC? Or Regen for the party for doing Light skillchains?

Whatever the added effect should be, make it so that it is not a huge party boost so that you can now get like, 50k exp/hr, but make it so that it is beneficial enough to the party so that they have to stop and think, "do we want to spam WS for more damage, or do we want X buff? Do we want to pick a SC that the mob is weak to for more damage, or do we want Y effect/buff more?"

I like how people are going to argue against Icemage on stuff they have no idea about. HEY ICEMAGE, stop looking down on the noobies! THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO. Just because they havn't done much in the game doesn't mean they don't know more than others who've done a lot.

PS. Nerfing TP burns ain't the answer to making BLM/SC better in my opinion. Though, there some things that make TP burns strong that could use some adjusting, simply making SC damage and MB benefits(I've heard the idea that getting a major MP Conserve bonus, like 5% back) betters could be enough, along with a real manaburnVsNM nerf.

I like how people are going to argue against Icemage on stuff they have no idea about.

Everyone who plays the game, new or otherwise, has some basis of knowledge on which to provide a useful contribution to an argument.

HEY ICEMAGE, stop looking down on the noobies! THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO. Just because they havn't done much in the game doesn't mean they don't know more than others who've done a lot.

This statement contradicts your first statement. The fact that you don't particularly like Icemage is readily apparent in every single thread that contains both of your names, I think it's a well-known fact by now. Just get over it.


PS. Nerfing TP burns ain't the answer to making BLM/SC better in my opinion. Though, there some things that make TP burns strong that could use some adjusting, simply making SC damage and MB benefits(I've heard the idea that getting a major MP Conserve bonus, like 5% back) betters could be enough, along with a real manaburnVsNM nerf.

Well, the best way to correct this is numerical advantage. The numerics of the game are messed up, not the basic systems that are in place:

If a partial 100% TP bonus is worthless, then one of two things should occur:

1) The TP between the two plateaus should be conserved when activating a power.

OR

2) The TP between the two planteaus should represent a linear ramp in benefit. Linear is (IMO) the best way to go with most game numerics. It is simple, but is an open enough system that it allows for great complexity without overstressing the processor, and it is obvious--More is always better and moreover linearly better (i.e. the benefit to having More doesn't decrease).


This makes TP a little bland, however, we can change our linear function at the plateaus by increasing the slope by a small amount--If we make the amount too large, then we run into the problem that everyone will be saving TP to 200%+ but not 300% since any overage will be wasted. Unless of course, there's a "bump" at 300% that makes a certain amount of overage not wasteful, but this, again results in conservation of TP rather than activation. We want more activation.

This means that skillchains have to be value-efficient for the set up cost. For instance, in Valkurm Dunes, a Distortion skillchain might only return a measly 3 damage. The only reason anyone would use a skillchain at such a level is only for the magic burst. Of course, you can't make the damage so high that it shadows the magic bursts--because this would lead to invitation of another melee DD for another SC rather than a weaker Magic Burst user. Therefore, Magic Burst damage and SC damage must be roughly equivalent on the basis of a party mix of say... 2 DD Spellcaster, 1 abstaining spellcaster, 2 chain participants, 1 abstaining melee indicating that a magic burst should be approximately 50% of the damage of an equivalent elemental chain since it takes 2 dudes to do a skillchain but only 1 to do a burst. Exceptional spellcasters can often pull off a double burst and we can add spellcasters each with the same power, so if we factor those in (using some statistical basis which I don't have), we might end up with MB being approximately 30-40% of SC damage. Once we have our statistical basis, we put it in place and wait for the whining....

If the mages are whining, we need to "nudge" it up. If the melees are whining, we need to "nudge" it down. If everybody's whining, it's probably just right (because the law of whining states that a whiner whines even when there's nothing to whine about).

This statement contradicts your first statement.

You've fallen in a sarchasm!

Why the quoting of the related-to-topic portion of my post, when it is completely indifferent compared to lets say, the OP. Now the reply to that... (by the way, what is with all the 'THIS IS A COMPLEX ALGEBRA QUESTION' talk, we are not trying to figure out a weaponskill's modifiers here).

First off, what? You seem to be talking about Weaponskills, not Skillchains. Well, it could be what you are saying is to explain the reasoning why spending your TP right away is better than saving it to SC, however, that doesn't make much sense. In almost all parties the SC partners will SC as soon as possible, at least, if there isn't anything else in the way(like messy position for SA/TA or poor communication). If people are taking their time to deliver the burst-damage, then the battles are going to take longer than they should. Even if this was the case, this does nothing for TP burns or SC-based parties. Going at 100% or when your party is ready will always be better because you are trying to take out the monsters as soon as possible. I'm won't say improving WSes is a bad thing, but it does almost nothing for the current situation. It would make killing HNMs (even) easier, but does nothing to slow down TP burns. I'm going to pretend you been in one, so you would know that its the constant damage preventing the monsters from acting by acting quickly as possible and doing damage.

Second, let's think as if you are talking about SCs. Well, making SCs stronger in terms of maximun damage isn't going do much at all. It's the accuracy. If your closer does a 1000 damage weaponskill, you are liable to get anything from 20 to 1000 on an EP, IT, or level 90 HNM. If you could almost constantly do an additional WS or half worth of damage, depending on level, worth of damage to a exp-monster of VT, even IT, SCs would be more attractive.

Now after making them more accurate, it isn't enough alone. If you really want to get more hit many birds with one stone, you would deal with the issues "most SC-based WSes ignored", "MBing being worth it", and "BLM not being worth it in a party of melee" at the same time. Have WSes that have a purpose to make better SCs do more damage when closing a SC. Have BLMs gain a bonus from MBing... giving them MAB would only help on HNMs because SC+MB is usually the final moments of a monster's life, so give them (conserve) MP... 5-10% MP return, possibly based on the damage done. Have elemental DoTs increase SC damage of a matching SC(Light could be Burn, Shock, Chock, or even Dia).

SCs doing low damage in Dunes is okay. Its scales up nicely as weaponskills progress. As long as they are doing their maximum damage more than not, then there is no problem with the damage of SCs.

Oh, and Icemage is a fine guy, but he'll do anything to ban me, he makes pushing buttons look so fun. I'm sure he'll tell himself that this statement itself is offensive and award me 10 warning points in an effort to ban me.

You've fallen in a sarchasm!

Sarcasm is rather transparent online, wouldn't you say? I would have no idea you were being sarcastic without being told.


Why the quoting of the related-to-topic portion of my post, when it is completely indifferent compared to lets say, the OP. Now the reply to that... (by the way, what is with all the 'THIS IS A COMPLEX ALGEBRA QUESTION' talk, we are not trying to figure out a weaponskill's modifiers here).


Everything in a game is an algebra question, complex or otherwise, because all game mechanics are inherently algebraic. Therefore, we actually have to think about how the numbers fall. My numerical suggestions are merely indicators to what a fair outcome might look like in the end.


First off, what? You seem to be talking about Weaponskills, not Skillchains.


The two are interrelated. I am speaking in regards to both.


Well, it could be what you are saying is to explain the reasoning why spending your TP right away is better than saving it to SC, however, that doesn't make much sense.


Most parties have been doing exactly this for some time, TP Burn or otherwise. The percentage of parties that I've been in that set up and use a skillchain is very small and decreasing.


In almost all parties the SC partners will SC as soon as possible, at least, if there isn't anything else in the way(like messy position for SA/TA or poor communication). If people are taking their time to deliver the burst-damage, then the battles are going to take longer than they should. Even if this was the case, this does nothing for TP burns or SC-based parties. Going at 100% or when your party is ready will always be better because you are trying to take out the monsters as soon as possible. I'm won't say improving WSes is a bad thing, but it does almost nothing for the current situation.

The problem being addressed, at least in my case, is the tossing of WS outside of chain and the preference for straight SC over SC/MB combination. Taking out the monster asap is obviously the goal with any party. The goal of this thread is to make adding a BLM to a party to be as good as adding another WS'er or SC'er or more specifically, to enhance party diversity by diminishing returns from too much of one thing. I believe SE is also trying to address the Manaburn issue as well, though this is not the topic of this thread.


It would make killing HNMs (even) easier, but does nothing to slow down TP burns. I'm going to pretend you been in one, so you would know that its the constant damage preventing the monsters from acting by acting quickly as possible and doing damage.

You can pretend I've been in a TP Burn party, but as I never said that I had been, I will now state that I have, in fact, not been. My observations relate to the operation of Skillchains, Weaponskills, and Magic Bursts within a mixed party. Mages are not oft welcome in TP Burn parties and I play mages most generally. I also had no intention of suggesting a boost to WS but rather a tweaking of the equation to limit diminishing returns on Partial 100% TP bonuses. In fact, since it appears to be the SC/MB end which is deficient, it is the SC and the MB that I'm suggesting require adjustment rather than the WS's. Although, since we're looking at the big picture of overall statistical outcomes, it may be that in order to maintain the current rate of killing (thus avoiding problems with spawn timers and xp chaining) it will likely be necessary to adjust WS as well.



Second, let's think as if you are talking about SCs. Well, making SCs stronger in terms of maximun damage isn't going do much at all. It's the accuracy. If your closer does a 1000 damage weaponskill, you are liable to get anything from 20 to 1000 on an EP, IT, or level 90 HNM. If you could almost constantly do an additional WS or half worth of damage, depending on level, worth of damage to a exp-monster of VT, even IT, SCs would be more attractive.


I really do not care about the specifics of Accuracy versus Damage. I'm more concerned with the actual outcome overall which, for lack of a better term, I call Damage which is a representation of the combination of accuracy and damage. Per se the "Average Burst Damage" of such-and-such SC is 1000 and the "Accuracy" is 50%. The "Damage" in my case refers to the statistically normalized damage, in this case, 500.


Now after making them more accurate, it isn't enough alone. If you really want to get more hit many birds with one stone, you would deal with the issues "most SC-based WSes ignored", "MBing being worth it", and "BLM not being worth it in a party of melee" at the same time. Have WSes that have a purpose to make better SCs do more damage when closing a SC. Have BLMs gain a bonus from MBing... giving them MAB would only help on HNMs because SC+MB is usually the final moments of a monster's life, so give them (conserve) MP... 5-10% MP return, possibly based on the damage done. Have elemental DoTs increase SC damage of a matching SC(Light could be Burn, Shock, Chock, or even Dia).

Doing an MP Conservation is adding another iron to the fire--making the equation more complicated rather than correcting an existing imbalance. Every time you add a variable, you increase the complexity of the system dramatically. I am making a suggestion for how the existing system might be altered numerically to solve the problem without adding features. I'm always in favor of fixing that which is broken as opposed to correction via Duct Tape. The Duct Tape adds its own problems to the system and usually doesn't provide a complete solution to the problem.


Oh, and Icemage is a fine guy, but he'll do anything to ban me, he makes pushing buttons look so fun. I'm sure he'll tell himself that this statement itself is offensive and award me 10 warning points in an effort to ban me.

I could understand why, your posts have an irous tone, but that may just be the way you do things. Analogously, although I doubt it would enhance my FFXI experience in the game to have you in a party (more likely to the contrary), I wouldn't actively seek to have you removed or refuse to join said party were you in it. You also didn't use any overtly offensive language and you actually spoke toward and provided a point of view on the issue at hand rather than ranting about something entirely unrelated (that is not to say that you do either); therefore, I doubt if such an "award" would be justified--at least in this case.

They really need to give old school PT some tougher mobs to kill at 75. The same way we level up from 1-60 : /


Even better suggestion, Replace all mobs in ToAU with Faffy type mobs and lower spawn rate to every 15 min. like everywhere else.

SO WHERE'S THE TP BURN NOW, HUH? HUH?

:p

First off, what? You seem to be talking about Weaponskills, not Skillchains. Well, it could be what you are saying is to explain the reasoning why spending your TP right away is better than saving it to SC, however, that doesn't make much sense. In almost all parties the SC partners will SC as soon as possible, at least, if there isn't anything else in the way(like messy position for SA/TA or poor communication). If people are taking their time to deliver the burst-damage, then the battles are going to take longer than they should. Even if this was the case, this does nothing for TP burns or SC-based parties. Going at 100% or when your party is ready will always be better because you are trying to take out the monsters as soon as possible.

What we're saying is this: Skillchains aren't happening and the whole point to Weaponskills is to create SCs for magic bursts. You know, party dynamics. "Strategery," as Bush would put it.

Its not there.

It's just blow your TP and 100 percent ASAP on the pathetically weak mob. The ToA EXP mobs are highly weak to melee attacks and this is wholly inconsistant with the original release and the prior two expansions.

And it seems its not just BLM out there waiting. There's a holding patten even for melee at 70-73 right now. If you don't have Utsusemi: Ni, its like you're a freaking leper. I know a MNK - great guy, amazing player - who's been slogging along in those levels because he'll pull too much hate and Ichi won't cut it.

Hoping Ni will get a nerf probably won't get you anywhere, SE looks to be creating incentives to so with others sub and I hope it works out, but I fear it may not be enough. I think spawn rate and mob DEF needs some adjustment to make balanced PTs happen again. I don't expect much on the colibris to change, as being anti-magic seems to be their thing, but we can toughen up some other mobs, it silly they're so weak, epecially when it takes a half hour to kill the same kind of mob in Besieged.

Even better suggestion, Replace all mobs in ToAU with Faffy type mobs and lower spawn rate to every 15 min. like everywhere else.

SO WHERE'S THE TP BURN NOW, HUH? HUH?


Ok, I had to laugh there :) Instead I'd just give all mobs Tail Spike and be done with it :P

:somewhere in west ronfaure:

The Rarab uses Tail Spike!

99 new players take 9999 damage!

Bwahahahhaa.

And it seems its not just BLM out there waiting. There's a holding patten even for melee at 70-73 right now. If you don't have Utsusemi: Ni, its like you're a freaking leper. I know a MNK - great guy, amazing player - who's been slogging along in those levels because he'll pull too much hate and Ichi won't cut it.


Ugh, I am NOT looking forward to that, I'm starting to hit that in the high 60's. I really don't get it either, WHY should I gimp my damage so that some crappyass tank can hold hate? Why should I gimp my damage because players think that no tank parties are the best?

Moreover, if I were a paladin who got to level 75 who went through this, why should I die in HNM fights for you?

Everyone needs some lovin', take it like a man and accept your 6-8k/hr exp standard parties, we know how horrible they are.

Just because it's a fad like arrowburns, manaburns, or fist burns, does that mean that everyone should be forced to not only accept it, but be made to like it? Because that's what is happening, TP burn parties seem to be the "only" way to level, that is if you want a warrior, ninja, or a few other jobs in your party.


Sorry, but that is unacceptable.

Omgwtfbbqkitten

Sorry, I don't I can handle hearing your comments, so let's pretend you never posted. It's probably either unrelated, too obvious, or something ignorant. No reply here to that.

However,

Sabaron

On something not relating to the topic, you seem to talk more than is required on the subject, like if I took half the words of some paragraphs and deleted them, I could still understand your point. Let's just get to the point, okay? Also, you seem to be confusing what I think you are saying (because your post was rather cryptic) with what I think.

I guess I'll have to quote your words in the same way you did to be clear.


The two are interrelated. I am speaking in regards to both.

There is a difference. Making WSes stronger does rather little for SCs in most situations. SCs need to be stronger. With the SC, the BLM gets stronger in the mixed party.

In fact, since it appears to be the SC/MB end which is deficient, it is the SC and the MB that I'm suggesting require adjustment rather than the WS's.

Really, then why constantly bring up WSes?

I'm more concerned with the actual outcome overall which, for lack of a better term, I call Damage which is a representation of the combination of accuracy and damage.

Well, I'll be happy to inform you, the current situation is only accuracy. The maximun damage a SC can do is the same as the closing WS(though I don't think that is the same for a multiple SC). The problem is, SCs are so easily resisted they are hardly worth doing. You'll get an amazing amount of damage maybe once or twice every hour or thirty minutes in a quick and active SC party, but most of the time it will be crap. The answer is simple, make it not be resisted by exp monsters.

Doing an MP Conservation is adding another iron to the fire--making the equation more complicated rather than correcting an existing imbalance...

I'm always in favor of fixing that which is broken as opposed to correction via Duct Tape.

I'm going to answer this in three parts:

1) Do you know what is wrong with SCs, and BLMs along with them? Well we already pointed out the problem with SC damage, and thats the big one. If you fix the accuracy on it, then you "fixed what was broken". However, even with that, doesn't do awhole lot with BLM. BLM themselves need an another advantage to being in a mixed party, a party where they need to control themselves because they are limited by MP gain and hate.

2) Do you know how TP burns work? Aside from being able to take a monster down fast, TP burns, good ones anyway, exceel at never stopping. This is why /NIN and the only two mages being RDM and BRD(curers, buffers, and most importantly, refreshers) are so popular. They are able to never run out of steam, just keep pulling and pulling. This is how they get +15k/hour exp, because it never stops. In other parties, mainly SC parties, if a BLM plays his best, as in do as much damage without drawing hate, he will run out of steam at some point and have to hold back for a short period of time. A BLM in this situation is stuck to 1-2 nukes a battle(including MB) and maybe some DoT/Enfeebling.

3) Now, what could help BLM and incourage them to join parties, just like SE wants? Well, simple. Give them MP so he doesn't run out of steam. Giving BLM an MP return on MBs is flawless in this nature.

A BLM MBs Burst II, the spell costs 287. Because he MBed, he will recieve 15% of it back, effected by Conserve MP, lets say .1 per 1 Conserve MP. I'm not sure how much Conserve MP BLM gets from the trait... lets say 30 on Trait I and 20 on Trait II... so a level 68+ has an additional 5% bonus on MBing, compared to a, WHM/SMN who MBs Holy.

This BLM has +10 Conserve MP(1%) worth of gear, adding this up, he will get back 21% on Burst II. That is around 60 MP. Quite a nice bonus and would help BLMs a lot. The fact Burst II also increases in damage when MB'd is enough to encourage it being used.

That is all I have to say on the matter for now, I hope you understand.

This BLM has +10 Conserve MP(1%) worth of gear, adding this up, he will get back 21% on Burst II. That is around 60 MP. Quite a nice bonus and would help BLMs a lot. The fact Burst II also increases in damage when MB'd is enough to encourage it being used.


Erm, I dunno, an actual conserve mp bonus to magic bursts is kinda meh to me, conserve mp from what I have seen kicks off enough times already and conserves a random amount of mp. Seeing the blm in my old static cast that Ice AM for about 12mp was more than a little disgusting to not only see that once, but 3 times.


The problem is, SCs are so easily resisted they are hardly worth doing. You'll get an amazing amount of damage maybe once or twice every hour or thirty minutes in a quick and active SC party

Er, no, ever party with a thief? Do you have any idea how often I see a thief close a SC and have the SC do either the same, or 2/3 of the damage the thief did? I get an amazing amount of damage 99.99%, did you ever consider that there are more factors in the equation?

The answer is simple, make it not be resisted by exp monsters.

I don't think so, why should exp monsters be "easy"?

BLM themselves need an another advantage to being in a mixed party, a party where they need to control themselves because they are limited by MP gain and hate.

If it is a balanced party toss in a thief and the hate issues go away except for nuke happy blm. Add to that the fact that mp gain isn't an issue in a balanced party since there will be some downtime for the mage when the puller goes out, in between SC depending on how the blm manages their time and what their gear is.

And yeah, this does happen, last party I had was drg, sam, pld, whm, blm, drk, we fought the fire crawlers and had no downtime unless our paladin got killed, which only happened twice due to the crawler's breath attack killing him at full hp. Our blm was a mithra who used her mp smartly, if she can do it, I am sure other blm can do it as well.

In other parties, mainly SC parties, if a BLM plays his best, as in do as much damage without drawing hate, he will run out of steam at some point and have to hold back for a short period of time.

Sometimes true, but when he does, it's what, 1-2 minutes at most to get his mp back from 0 to full? When you fight T-VT mobs the blm shouldn't even NEED more than 2-3 nukes including the MB, heck most times he just needs to MB on the SC and the mob is dead, Puks anyone?

them MP so he doesn't run out of steam.

Juices, refresh, Vermy cloak, black coat, songs, smn sub, all provide refresh effects, and since very few of the blm that I party with ever use any of their white mage spells, the sub is rather pointless then, and smn for more mp, or rdm for fast cast and dispel would probably be better.

Toss into there the fact that the blm relic basically does what you want, more MB damage, -enmity, refresh, elemental skill +, mp+, conserve mp+, and magic damage affected by day, so it's already in there, and since most dynamis shells will let in mages at level 65, and since this trend is starting in the late 60's, there is really no reason not to get the relic armor.

Oh, and Icemage is a fine guy, but he'll do anything to ban me

Take a look at what you said to Omgwtfbbqkitten.

I don't think so, why should exp monsters be "easy"?

I'm not even sure how to respond to this... because they already are? What you are saying is "Why should people be allowed to kill monsters in mixed groups, when they can do it better in burn parties?".

And yeah, this does happen, last party I had was drg, sam, pld, whm, blm, drk, we fought the fire crawlers and had no downtime unless our paladin got killed, which only happened twice due to the crawler's breath attack killing him at full hp. Our blm was a mithra who used her mp smartly, if she can do it, I am sure other blm can do it as well.

I'm sure your party was nice, but compared to a TP burn getting at least 5k more exp, maybe even 10k. The Mithra BLM wasn't playing at his best if he never needed to rest. The fact you had a PLD who suffers from the same problems(endurance) as BLM in these kind of parties. Who are trying to argue with here? It is the great, wise SE saying this in their own words.

Juices, refresh, Vermy cloak, black coat, songs, smn sub, all provide refresh effects, and since very few of the blm that I party with ever use any of their white mage spells, the sub is rather pointless then, and smn for more mp, or rdm for fast cast and dispel would probably be better.

Jesus christ... I'm just going to stop there. I don't think this is our first encounter, but just...stop talking please. You are hurting the arguement of anyone with the same opinion.

I can't even take you seriously, but as I'm trying really hard, you don't have much of a point. I know standard parties can kill monsters, but they suck so bad compared to a TP burn party.

I've never met an experienced BLM, who has seen both sides of normal parties and manaburns for a long time, opposed to the idea of getting MP back from MBs. I did not dream this one up, it was talked about in a topic similar to this one, with only high level BLMs participating. Since the issue beings at 65+, I really hope I'm not talking to level 8 WHMs here. Where do you people get your ideas?

Also if you are going to make insane claims like Conserve MP bringing Freeze to 13 MP three times, you need some proof. Your little static BLM buddy did something no one else in FFXI has ever done, three times. What's even more concerning is that this guy probably wasn't level 70+ at the time and Conserve MP gear is not common before that range, at least without great costs(not say its enough even then).

One last thing

Add to that the fact that mp gain isn't an issue in a balanced party since there will be some downtime for the mage when the puller goes out

Now here is the problem. If a BLM has time to get one tick in a pull, then your party will never compare to a good TP burn. Mind you, that is just one tick, and the first tick is always the longest for a BLM, you won't get two ticks off in a minute. If a BLM has time to rest the party is not playing at its max, and if the BLM isn't having a hardtime with their MP being spent after 3-5 battles(I guess it depends on the level) then that BLM isn't playing at its max. All the while, TP burns have no problem playing at their max and not running out of steam.

PS. Juices and Refresh do not stack(and likewise, you can't wear two cloaks at one time, and two refreshers for one party is usually too much, unless it is a TP burn), and juices are rarely used by non-crafters. Please put some (realistic) thought in this, or you are just spamming in spaces between good replies.

The only things that ever prevented TP burn pts before would have to be a lack of mobs. I've had pts as low as qufim where it was 4 melee and 2 mages where we'd constantly fight T-VT mobs in a near, no-down time chain. No SC or MB, just WS at 100, going all out and move to the next mob asap. And as stated before, the only thing holding us back was a lack of mobs. We'd get chain 4-5, spend a few seconds looking for a new mob, and by the time we got one the chain was lost. These pts made easy 8-10k an hour, in Qufim, Altep, GC, CN, ect, so the TP burn pts aren't just in higher lvls.

Conversely I had a Blmx3, Whm, War, Nin pt in qufim that did something similar using Blm dmg. Again, no SC or MB, but lots of killing. The only real difference was we went after higher mobs, but the results were rather similar EXP wise. And if I recall correctly, it was mana-burns that were the 'best' kind of pt before ToAU came out, as they were able to rake in a near constant chain of EXP.

Long story short, no matter what 'fixes' are made to the pt system, people will find ways to 'abuse' it. There will always be 'top tier' pt members and 'bottom rung' jobs, no matter what gets done. And to put it bluntly, many people will always try to avoid a SC and MB because it actually requires them to think to accomplish it. Where as 'burn' pts require much less effort. In the end, people are going to choose the easier route. Is it right? not to many who care, but there's not much that can be done.

Am I the only one who find planning a SC(looking at a chart you found online) and repeating it a thousand times not very "strategic"? I think the only reasons people don't do SCs is because it does less damage overall.

Am I the only one who find planning a SC(looking at a chart you found online) and repeating it a thousand times not very "strategic"?

Yeah pretty sure you are the only one. Strategy can be considered a plan, or series of maneuvers for obtaining a specific goal or result.

Using a planned combination of multiple tactics (Weapon Skills) to create a skill chain and magic burst is pretty much a classic definition of being strategic.

Jesus christ... I'm just going to stop there. I don't think this is our first encounter, but just...stop talking please. You are hurting the arguement of anyone with the same opinion.

Oh, do please elaborate, if you aren't going to use the spells from your subjob, then the mp given and the job's traits and ablitities are more important. /smn gives more mp than /whm and /rdm gives more important traits than /whm, take your pick.


Also if you are going to make insane claims like Conserve MP bringing Freeze to 13 MP three times, you need some proof

Sorry, no pictures for you, but the first time was at level 54 in kuftal tunnel vs crabs.


What you are saying is "Why should people be allowed to kill monsters in mixed groups, when they can do it better in burn parties?".

Ah, no, what I am saying is "Why should we make it so that SC are unresisted on normal exp mobs?"

PS. Juices and Refresh do not stack(and likewise, you can't wear two cloaks at one time, and two refreshers for one party is usually too much, unless it is a TP burn), and juices are rarely used by non-crafters. Please put some (realistic) thought in this, or you are just spamming in spaces between good replies.


Did I ever claim they did? I listed them as all ways to get refresh as anyone who is halfway literate would have realised. In this day and age who ISN'T a non crafter? If I can get my cooking to level 34 in 3-4 afternoons of crafting, spending an hour or two max each afternoon, yeah, I darn well think leveling cooking is well within the realm of reality, and it is one of the easiest crafts to level.

Please put some (realistic) trolling in your replies.

BLM can't keep up with TP burns and not even with exceptionally fast PLD parties. More often than not I would (as PLD) outparse the few BLMs that I ever found in my parties at L70+. Why? Because the bard pulls two mobs at a time and makes sure there is always at least one mob sleeping next to the party. The BLM runs out of steam very quickly while melees can keep going forever. PLDs also run out of steam, but they, or at least I did, usually last longer than the BLMs.

Long story short, no matter what 'fixes' are made to the pt system, people will find ways to 'abuse' it. There will always be 'top tier' pt members and 'bottom rung' jobs, no matter what gets done. And to put it bluntly, many people will always try to avoid a SC and MB because it actually requires them to think to accomplish it. Where as 'burn' pts require much less effort. In the end, people are going to choose the easier route. Is it right? not to many who care, but there's not much that can be done.

I would tend to agree. The problem from a developers standpoint, however, is encouraging people not to do that and to use more varied techniques. From a business perspective, however, one really doesn't care what strategy people use as long as they remain happy and satisfied that you appear to be doing everything you can to help them in their various plights and to be fair. Thusly, small adjustments periodically give the illusion that you're actually doing something when in reality most of what you fix breaks something else in the process.

There's no such thing as a perfectly balanced game, but I think the balance is off when the only PTs you can get in Aht Urghan are TP Burn. Now, obviously, SE could add an area that's Manaburn friendly, but that doesn't "integrate" the players. Their goal appears to be your generalized party consisting of about 50% melee and 50% magic. I've never fought Colibri, but do they have some sort of a "Wall" ability wherein magic is reflected onto the caster? Perhaps old skool "Wall" battles would be an interesting addition... of course that breaks things such as existing goblin spellcasters and the like who don't have wall... Maybe AoE breaks a wall like it breaks Utsusemi or it only reflects one spell/has a terribly short duration (1/2 Haste or shorter) ? I don't know.

As far as this thread is concerned, I'm sticking with my recalibration of WS/SC/MB based on statistical analysis of their efficacy.

As for LegalFish, I still don't think you understand my perspective and the primary reason I use what one may consider inconcise posts, is because I want someone who is capable of reasonable thought to understand me clearly and not have any doubt as to exactly what I mean. Thus the second post is a clarification provided for your benefit to my first post which you didn't seem to grasp (and still do not). You seem to be looking at something specific while I am eluding to more generalistic analysis with resources that are only available to those who actually made the game.

The fact that you seem to need to denegrate other posters such as OMGWTFBBQKitten and Vyuru even though they had valid perspectives on the issue at hand seems to indicate that you have ego problems and may need to feel superior to others. I suggest professional assistance with your inherent anger. Perhaps there's a pill or something...

Sorry, I don't I can handle hearing your comments, so let's pretend you never posted. It's probably either unrelated, too obvious, or something ignorant. No reply here to that.

Don't worry, I'm sure I can all handle your posts in kind from here on out.

BLM can't keep up with TP burns and not even with exceptionally fast PLD parties. More often than not I would (as PLD) outparse the few BLMs that I ever found in my parties at L70+. Why? Because the bard pulls two mobs at a time and makes sure there is always at least one mob sleeping next to the party. The BLM runs out of steam very quickly while melees can keep going forever. PLDs also run out of steam, but they, or at least I did, usually last longer than the BLMs.

BRD always makes sure, eh? What about buffs? I've actually heard a bit of complaining from mages and melee alike that BRDs are no longer doing in TP burn what BRDs are known for - buffs. all because they're too busy with Utsusemi, pulling and sleeping to do so. I know if I'm holding one/two mobs or pulling, buffing is going to be a rather hard thing to do, /WHM or /NIN.

I could easily do 10k+ EXP per hour as BRD/WHM pre-ToA and keep four buffs going at all times while pulling and sleeping the next mob, buff and pull again - roaming PT or not. I didn't have to sleep more than one, though sometimes it happend. But never enough to warrant /NIN.

Did we some how get another BRP?

I completely agree that Skillchain effects need to be adjusted, but making them so they can't be resisted isn't the right step. We're to the point that the only way to actually have decent Skillchain effects requires THF main or sub job.

THF closes Distortion on a Robber Crab for 500dmg, and then you see a 100 Distortion despite the mob being weak to Ice. Next time Distortion does 300dmg, and everybody's happy. Another party where a WAR closes Distortion with Rampage for 400dmg, and a 100dmg Distortion would be a God send.

Perhaps the player base needs to be given control of the effect resists. Something can be done by the Skillchain partners to help prevent the resists, much like a RDM, BRD, or BLM have to adjust the effect their spells. Another option is making sure that Skillchains do a percentage of the damage from the closing WS, or a percentage of combined WS. 15% minimum for Lv1, 25% for Lv.2, 35~40% for Lv.3. Leave the "caps" for them as they are. (I mean who's ever seen a Lv.2 Skillchain Mirror closing WS damage?) This would make Skillchains a little more attractive. As things are right now, you either have a DRK, THF or SAM closer it from Lv.65+, or just no Skillchain at all.

This way, Skillchain effects might do more damage, and we'll see a lot less Distortions for under 100dmg, or a Light Skillchain that does 150dmg. Just one of many possible options.

Did we some how get another BRP?


What's a BRP?


As things are right now, you either have a DRK, THF or SAM closer it from Lv.65+, or just no Skillchain at all.

This way, Skillchain effects might do more damage, and we'll see a lot less Distortions for under 100dmg, or a Light Skillchain that does 150dmg. Just one of many possible options.

I would suggest that these 3 classes need to remain staple SC closers (as that is what they are primarily known for and receive invites on this basis), but that perhaps there's a happy medium for non-DRK/THF/SAM closed SCs where they remain an attractive combination.

What's a BRP? Blood Red Poet, aka a troll.

Blood Red Poet, aka a troll.

So easy to be called a troll when people are just asking to be 'trolled'. BLM subbing SMN? Oh my...

As for LegalFish, I still don't think you understand my perspective and the primary reason I use what one may consider inconcise posts, is because I want someone who is capable of reasonable thought to understand me clearly and not have any doubt as to exactly what I mean. Thus the second post is a clarification provided for your benefit to my first post which you didn't seem to grasp (and still do not). You seem to be looking at something specific while I am eluding to more generalistic analysis with resources that are only available to those who actually made the game.

Er, if that is what you want to call it. You seem to be dancing around the topic with long sentences and such. The problem with SCs is that they have horrible, horrible accuracy. The problem with BLMs in standard parties is that they have no stamina. Why even bother mentioning SCs in this thread(about BLMs mind you) if it doesn't do much to assist the BLM directly. If I'm not understanding you, then please tell me what I didn't get.

The fact that you seem to need to denegrate other posters such as OMGWTFBBQKitten and Vyuru even though they had valid perspectives on the issue at hand seems to indicate that you have ego problems and may need to feel superior to others. I suggest professional assistance with your inherent anger. Perhaps there's a pill or something...

The posters do it themselves, I just like pointing it out. If someone make a thread, right now, about this complete moron they met in Valkurm Dunes, there would be some laughs and some advice like "avoid that guy". Well, I'm doing that right now, but on the "forums". The kind of arguements like "Well, if want the game to be easy(by easy, then mean using your mind instead of grinding) go play WoW, but I wouldn't know", or "Well since SE made it in the game, its okay, but I wouldn't now", or "I get all my info on the matter from someone who was in my static party, btw he was able to make miracles happen, but I wouldn't know, and I can't prove it" that really turns me off, just like a noob yelling at someone for a raise on those sandy videogame beaches. You can say "Hey, I play this game too, I know what I'm talking about" all you want, but thats the same of someone saying "Hey, I can be a doctor, I've been in a hospital once". About the pill, when I take anything said by me or someone else on the internet seriously, I'll give you a call.

I would suggest that these 3 classes need to remain staple SC closers

Yes, we wouldn't want DRGs taking their invites now would we?

Yeah pretty sure you are the only one. Strategy can be considered a plan, or series of maneuvers for obtaining a specific goal or result.

You know Tic-Tac-Toe is a game of strategy too. Does it make it a "very strategic game"? The excuse people are not doing SCs because it takes less brain power than just using WSes alone is absurd. The different is the same between having to count 2 dots to having to counter 3 dots. A complete idiot who could never win a game of Go, Chess, Connect4, or Checkers could do it. I not saying its a bad thing, but it is far from an excuse. It seems someone is trying to put down people who don't use it, as if people who do it are greater beings of thought(talk about feeding the ego).

tdh

Now, now, you don't know who I am? You should... anyway, you speak an intelligent arguement. I do think you are not thinking in terms of BLM, which this thread is about however. Making SCs stronger without helping BLMs at all could actually be harmful in some cases, where MBs are no longer needed, not to say I wouldn't want a change to SC even without a BLM change.

Ah, no, what I am saying is "Why should we make it so that SC are unresisted on normal exp mobs?"

Last time I'm going to speak to your directly, at least in this thread.

Why you ask? So people would use them, that's why. I can't break it down any further. Read it a few times if needed.

Posters with opinions of great value, please do not stoop to making posts about me being a troll. You are free to insult the value of my arguement all you want as long as you have one yourself.

Now, SE wants BLMs to be strong in standard parties. Their weakness is that they lack endurance. This is the situation, try not to dance around it.

I've never fought Colibri, but do they have some sort of a "Wall" ability wherein magic is reflected onto the caster?

They basically cast back any and all magic on randomly targeted party members. I've seen it work for spells, ninjutsu, and songs. It takes them about... 2-4 seconds to cast a spell on you regardless of how long it took you to do it. And it seems random, because I've been hit by ninjutsu and a few enfeebles while fighting them. Only the Colibri do this, Lesser Colibri do not.

BRD always makes sure, eh? What about buffs? I've actually heard a bit of complaining from mages and melee alike that BRDs are no longer doing in TP burn what BRDs are known for - buffs.

Actually, I'm ready to start complaining to bards now. I recently took up bard as a sub for light soloing/farming easy prey-even matches. I was looking at what songs I needed, and I had no idea they had a dex+ song, str+, int+, and so on. That seems pointless to not be giving int+ to blm, dex+ to thfs, and maybe mnd to either whm or rdm (helps with some enfeebles) I prefer to have the acc+ and haste songs on me as well, i don't like having acc+ and att+, though it is nice, I can get att+ from eating att+food since I don't need to eat acc food with acc+songs, I can't reasonably get haste from gear.

I would suggest that these 3 classes need to remain staple SC closers

Agreed, I can open a light SC with them rather nicely, i dislike closing SC though, it takes too much optimizing and gear swaps and a thf sub to get a powerful closing hit with Wheeling Thrust, so IMO why bother when I can just invite a thf to close light with?



but that perhaps there's a happy medium for non-DRK/THF/SAM closed SCs where they remain an attractive combination.

I don't have my SC chart with me, but isn't there kinda one already? They can close other skillchains, but they are just not what most people would call the "best" SC. I don't know off the top of my head, but for instance I don't think my lances SC well with one handed axes, but I do think they SC well with Gaxes. Not 100% sure on it though. I think that this is what the developers had in mind when they designed the game, you can still make SCs, just not as powerful closers on the popular SCs.

I do think that the only reason distortion is so popular now is because of SATA+Viper Bite closing the SC, big damaging WS, big damaging SC, several elements to MB with. Fusion would probably work just as well against most of the mobs you fight, (bugs, plants, some flying bug stuff), but who has a really damaging closing WS on fusion?

To be honest I'm a little surprised that SC don't change to accomodate the blm's most powerful spell. Blm just got Stone II? A dark/earth SC might be better than whatever SC you currently have going, depends on mob weakness and closing WS damage though.

And I really do think there is more to the SC damage than just resist rate, I party with alot of thiefs, and the SC damage is almost always their full damage, or maybe 2/3 of their closing damage. Other jobs seem to be kinda all over the place, though for the most part jobs with one hit WS and a thf sub will tend to have a high SC damage rate it seems. Like Drk/thf with a Gsword or something similar.

Actually, I'm ready to start complaining to bards now. I recently took up bard as a sub for light soloing/farming easy prey-even matches. I was looking at what songs I needed, and I had no idea they had a dex+ song, str+, int+, and so on. That seems pointless to not be giving int+ to blm, dex+ to thfs, and maybe mnd to either whm or rdm (helps with some enfeebles) I prefer to have the acc+ and haste songs on me as well, i don't like having acc+ and att+, though it is nice, I can get att+ from eating att+food since I don't need to eat acc food with acc+songs, I can't reasonably get haste from gear.

You may prefer to eat attack food, but compared to the attack bonuses Minuets give, what you get from food is an absolute joke and a waste of gil. Sushi is the way to go for accuracy, only in rare instances would I ever use Madrigal at high level. And I play COR no different in that regard, accuracy buffs only go so far and melees should have the gear and food to cover that.

The Etudes you're referring to are best used in camps where everyone is going to get hit with AOE buffs, which shouldn't happen at higher levels. The second tier of etudes, while impressive, dimish in potency as the duration effect continues - all other BRD buffs don't degrade like 2nd tier Etudes do. The most I really ever use the is if we have a second BRD in PT and, really, there's nothing better to put on the mages that MND and INT at that point. Also do MND etudes for the MNK pumping up a Chi Blast sometimes, but its back to Minuet for MNK right after.

Back on the main topic. I did a good ol' SC/MB PT in the ToA zones as BRD tonight, complete with BLM. Hadn't done BRD merits in a good long while. To my surprise, my PT was not content with total weakness of Jnuns and Imps. Seriously, Imps went down in like ten seconds, that's just pathetic.

We switched up to Halvung and camped in the ramparts. Very nice camp and the mobs there were much more difficult ... which made the fast repops a little more thrilling than pulling another wImp.

If the weakness of other mobs wasn't so pathetic and repop so fast, people wouldn't exploit it so heavily and BLM definately wouldn't be hurt so much.

I should also note that we actually started from Dvucca staging point. While there are imps and Jnun to wail on, qutrub mobs are really the only formidable mobs there and apparently they're not burn material as they're rather resistant to sleep and lullaby.

So not everything in ToA is broken, there are just some mobs that need to be a lot stronger in DEF and HP than they are now. This would help bring skillchains and MB back into the picture.

BLM can't keep up with TP burns and not even with exceptionally fast PLD parties. More often than not I would (as PLD) outparse the few BLMs that I ever found in my parties at L70+. Why? Because the bard pulls two mobs at a time and makes sure there is always at least one mob sleeping next to the party. The BLM runs out of steam very quickly while melees can keep going forever. PLDs also run out of steam, but they, or at least I did, usually last longer than the BLMs.

I am a 75 BLM. I played my ENTIRE BLM career after ToAU came out.

I am what I have been told is "old-school BLM." What this means is I cast DoT spells (ie, Poison II, Elemental Enfeebles, Bio II if needed), MB, and maybe 1 or 2 lower level nukes to finish off a mob, sitting when I'm not busy with other things. And I do not run out of steam, even in semi-burn PTs. Do you know how I do it? In semi-burns, I am bored to death, but I use 1-2 nukes at 50% or less life to KO the mob, not bothering with DoT because the mobs just die way too fast. I rest until it's time to start nuking. I've even been known to pull when there's no BRD in the PT (once).

Did I feel any heat around 65 from TP burns? Yes. Yes, I did. But by this time, I had a good reputation with people at my level and still got invites, even to semi-burns. Maybe it's harder on other servers, but I would get PTs with the same people day after day, as a BLM, in TaOU zones. I would LOVE it if SE lowered the Imp resistance to dark magic a bit, but I was invited to Imp PTs because I'm a BLM; I could kill off imps when the melees were Amnesia'd.

My best advice to BLMs everywhere? Do what I did; Make one friend in every PT you're in. Choose the person you see stand out, and send them a tell or two. Talk about how the PT's going. Talk about that WAR who keeps missing the SC or the BRD who's doing a good job pulling or how much you hate Abrasive Tantra. Talk about SOMETHING. Trust me, it is worth it to make friends in this game. They will remember your name, and the next time they see, "WAR X lfg, DRG Y lfg, oh wait! There's Kaithran!" You'll get an invite. Keep in touch. Congratulate them on a new level when you see them LFG. Look them up just to see how they're doing. It pays off in big ways.

My take on the situation?

1) Astral Candescence. This has made VT mobs a more viable option. In many PTs, we decided to burn b/c the melee wouldn't keep their SCs to 40%+ of the mob's life. Yes, it's fun to see your SC kill the mob, but everything goes faster when I'm MBing for 1500 on top of your 2000 for WS+SC. The mobs just don't have enough HP to make magic bursting an option. The mobs are too squishy: They make TP burns thrive.

Up the defence a little bit on certain mobs in the ToAU zones. Increase HP on some of the lower-HP mobs.

2) Collibris. These just suck. Great for TP burns, but they make BLMs into SMNs; HEALING MAGIC ONRY! You can't bio, you can't nuke, you can't even put them to sleep.

Make the reflect effect NOT 100%. Make it a TP-based move. Make it so that WSs can be reflected, too. Change collibris so that they aren't the TP-burn must-have that they are now. Make BLM a viable addition to groups of adventurers in ToAU at this level range.

3) Skillchain VS. Solo WeaponSkills. The main reason, as I see it from a BLM perspective, for no SC on TaOU mobs? WSs just do too much DMG to the mobs to make SCs a viable option. By the time two WSs go off, the mob doesn't have enough life to warrant a Tier 4 spell. Why save your TP when you can do 1000+ damage RIGHT NOW?

Up the defense on certain mobs in the ToAU zones. Increase HP on some of the lower HP mobs.


---
On the subject of MB PTs:

I have never been in a ManaBurn PT that went over 7k XP in an hour (minus ring). This is mainly due to one issue: gimped/stupid BLMs. I have seen BLMs who only have dark staff, with only AF as acceptable gear (ie, fishing gear, SPIKE necklace, BONE earrings). I have also MB'd with BLMs who were consistently 4-6 seconds late on every spell, causing other BLMs to cast a second spell, wasting mana. This makes the whole PT go slower. I know I have excellent gear, and I don't hold other BLMs to the standards I have set for myself, but PLEASE have at least all the NQ staves. They aren't expensive. And we set up timing so that everyone goes at the SAME time. That includes you.

---
Legal Fish:

I find omgwtfbbqkitten to be a polite and well-informed member of these forums. There is no reason to instigate negativity in this thread, so please, if you can't play nice, gtfo. ;3

Legal fish = BRP in case you guys can't tell. (He'll never go away)

And amazingly, I've been getting party invites lately, and not just manaburn parties. Guess it picks up from 70-75.

On the subject of MB PTs:
I have never been in a ManaBurn PT that went over 7k XP in an hour (minus ring). This is mainly due to one issue: gimped/stupid BLMs. I have seen BLMs who only have dark staff, with only AF as acceptable gear (ie, fishing gear, SPIKE necklace, BONE earrings). I have also MB'd with BLMs who were consistently 4-6 seconds late on every spell, causing other BLMs to cast a second spell, wasting mana. This makes the whole PT go slower. I know I have excellent gear, and I don't hold other BLMs to the standards I have set for myself, but PLEASE have at least all the NQ staves. They aren't expensive. And we set up timing so that everyone goes at the SAME time. That includes you.
---
I thought my gear is pretty gimp already... :(
I hardly see any gimp BLM wearing AF at 70+ personally except RMT. All BLM I know are pretty crazy about damage output.

I thought my gear is pretty gimp already... :(
I hardly see any gimp BLM wearing AF at 70+ personally except RMT. All BLM I know are pretty crazy about damage output.

Not all the BLM **I** see. :( It's really sad, to see a 73 BLM in AF with fishing gear and only dark staff. Not as bad as the RDM I PT'd with the other day without ANY staves, but still...

I would suggest that these 3 classes need to remain staple SC closers (as that is what they are primarily known for and receive invites on this basis), but that perhaps there's a happy medium for non-DRK/THF/SAM closed SCs where they remain an attractive combination.I would tend to agree with this. (Admittedly, partly due to the fact that I am a DRK.) I would rather see a closing WS for 1k+ than for 300~500dmg.

I'm not sure who made the comment about THF, DRK and SAM closers taking a party slot from DRGs, but I don't see that as an issue. Of the 3 closers I mentioned, DRG can open light for 2 of them.

Granted DRG could also close Light, but let's be honest. Which would you rather have? A DRG and WAR creating light, where Wheeling Thrust does 300~500dmg, and then Mistral Axe does 300~500. OR DRG or WAR opening for 300~500 and a THF or DRK closing for ~1k. Perhaps Wheeling Thrust needs some of the treatment that Spinning Slash once recieved. Who knows.

Now, now, you don't know who I am? You should... anyway, you speak an intelligent arguement. I do think you are not thinking in terms of BLM, which this thread is about however. Making SCs stronger without helping BLMs at all could actually be harmful in some cases, where MBs are no longer needed, not to say I wouldn't want a change to SC even without a BLM change.You are correct. The changed I suggested does not directly involve BLMs. However I believe that indirectly it could effect them greatly.

If Skillchain effects were adjusted to do more damage for the parties that don't have a THF or /THF closer, I believe there would be more Skillchaining parties. (Vorpal Scythe > Rampage is a pretty good Skillchain, but Distortion effect almost always sucks horribly.) More Skillchaining parties would then invite BLMs more regularly, securing them a spot, increasing their invites. Which is the main problem in a number of BLM's eyes. They don't like waiting like MNKs, DRKs, WARs, and SAMs usually have to.

Really, I think then real problem with the whole "TP-Burn Party" (and why did they change the name from "Well, can't find a blm, just grab another melee" parties?) is a matter convience. But, for the sake of arguement, let's look at the game pre and post ToAU.

Pre-

-SE has melee damage scaled down based on the lvl difference between the player and the mob.

- Pre-ToAU, you had blms who realized that they could get more exp by manaburning and left melees in the cold (not saying all blms did!).

-All Pre-ToAU exp areas, save KRT (which every melee save one does even MORE gimppy damage), are a pain to get to.

The above are the preexsisting problems with exping, least up in the 70s.

So, now ToAU comes out. It gives us the following:

-mobs that have natuarally low def

-exp camps that are easy/safe to get to.

-areas with exp bonus

Now, the first option really is the kicker. Melees just realized that they didn't NEED the damage support that blm had. Then, some extremists developed the whole concept of the fast killing TPburn party.

So now, blms are not being invited as much. And they're upset because they want to exp in the areas with the exp bonus and easy access (let's face it, we're all lazy).

Add a actuall OP warp NPC in sky or in "that zone with the mobs that use Doom" (name escapes me at the momment), and I bet there would be less complaining.

Oh, and btw

Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.

Beside my opinion that this is just wrong (what can i say, I'm a drk/war and spamm Guillotine), I don't think this would work since certain WS wont chain. I woked hard to get where I am. Why should I be forced to use Slice because my Guillotine damage will be gimped?

Beside my opinion that this is just wrong (what can i say, I'm a drk/war and spamm Guillotine), I don't think this would work since certain WS wont chain. I woked hard to get where I am. Why should I be forced to use Slice because my Guillotine damage will be gimped?
You can't wait 5 more seconds to use Guillotine?


Icemage

gimped/stupid BLMs.

Or very good ones. The job itself is quite limited. Something like a boost to SC damage and getting MP back on MBs could fix in a second.

# Make Magic Bursts temporarily reduce monster defense, the duration of which is linked to the amount of damage done by the strongest magic burst.
This gives melees a reason to invite BLMs into TP-burn, since they can increase the killing speed of the party even only casting one spell per fight.
#Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.
Only problem with this is that with ToAU and all the various fast-xp zones out, fights rarely last long enough where replacing one of the WARs with a BLM would help. With the typical TP-burn PT out, killing speed is basically fast enough where the BRD is constantly out pulling/queueing mobs. There is also the reliance on MP and with roaming PTs (which is already seen with the preference of RDMs over WHMs as healers). However, I can see the 2nd point slowing the process down, but with a full SC done on a VT mob, would a MB really make much of a difference?

I must say I like the idea of MP back on Magic Bursts, but it would probably become too over powering. Everybody and their mother would MB if they could. Unless it was some sort of job trait for BLMs, even though us RDMs would love something like this.

But I would love to have more lower level BLMs actually MB'n. (I can't even express how many parties I've been in as SAM where the BLMs didn't even seem to try and MB. Or how many times as BLM, we'd have a SAM in the group and they wouldn't set up a Skillchain for me blow up.)

Only problem with this is that with ToAU and all the various fast-xp zones out, fights rarely last long enough where replacing one of the WARs with a BLM would help. With the typical TP-burn PT out, killing speed is basically fast enough where the BRD is constantly out pulling/queueing mobs. There is also the reliance on MP and with roaming PTs (which is already seen with the preference of RDMs over WHMs as healers). However, I can see the 2nd point slowing the process down, but with a full SC done on a VT mob, would a MB really make much of a difference?I believe the MB does make a considerable difference.

When my static and I first moved to the ToAU areas, all the Lesser Colibri were IT to us. As DRK my damage was amped up a bit, and their low Evasion helped my Acc at Lv.55. Our goal was to start to ever mob with the skillchain, and have 90~100%TP by the end of the fight. Well it worked amazingly until Lv.57~58 when the Skillchain and MB would take about 85% of the mob's HP, and it died before the THF or I could build 90%+ TP.

Before ToAU, when everybody in the 60's were in the Bay and finally hit Lv.3 Skillchains, MB made quite a bit of difference. RDM and BLM MBs adding up to 1500dmg, later on BLMs could land 1500dmg+ on MB alone. I'd say that's very helpful against VT~IT+ mobs.

The idea change to TP and damage output is like stating it should be on a single timer, like the SMNs Blood Pacts. Should be pretty dead obvious how much of an annoyance that it, all you'll do is start breaking the SC and MB structure that way. If you really want to encourage it should go the opposite direction and be providing bonuses.

Simple and quick concept that could probably encourage SC timing is to have the BLMs spells on MB do a sort of splash effect for some temporary bonuses to the party. Perhaps a successful Earth based MB would splash a 1 hit absorber like stoneskin to the party.

So you could end up doing:

Earth = 1 hit damage null (1 min. timer)
Water = prevent 1 sleep spell (1 min. timer)
Wind = 30% Haste (1 min. timer)
Fire = +20% attack/rng. att. (30 sec. - 1 min. timer)
Thunder = 10% Critical Bonus (1 min. timer)
Ice = prevent 1 stun (1 min. timer)
Light = 5% HP Cure
Dark = prevent 1 curse/gravity (1 min. timer)

This should encourage more SC and MB use because now it's not only just dealing damage but giving strategic abilities. Just make as a trait for BLMs

2) Do you know how TP burns work?

Basically, a TP Burn is blowing TP. That's why it's called a "TP Burn" party. If you're talking about something else entirely, then it is not "TP Burn."

TP Burn do not require skillchains. Not because the skillchain effects get resisted. I'm not sure what level you are or what is your highest level job, but I'm guessing you have not seen too many THF/DRK/SAM SATA for 1.5K~2.5K in damage when combined with the SC effect. If you tell me that this is not better than spamming wheeling thrust, I'll probably slam you on the side of your head with a metal bat.

TP Burn just spam WSs. A WAR/NIN with full haste gear and multiple strike weapons could probably put out 2 WSs a minute. This is a far cry from what you see in RoZ where it takes anyone at least a minute to generate enough TP for a WS. And we're not just talking about WARs here either. MNKs and SAMs are TP whores and that's a fact.

Having a BLM means you need to SC. This means either (a) waiting for the slowest member to get TP and that member might not be an uber geared MNK or SAM or (b) waiting for BLM to have mana to MB with.

Remvoe BLM from this and you don't have any restriction to spamming your TP.

I've been in "TP Burn" as low as in Dunes. No SC'ing, no MB.

I think one of the biggest problems is not that people don't want to SC, it's that they don't know what to do. I play BLM as a subjob and end up setting up the SC with my oh-so-convenient sc chart combined with a mob resistance chart. I find that most pts are willing to do SC's even if only for the fact that it makes them look more uber-1337 than the party 10 feet down the passage. But I've also been in pts where the melees won't change the chain to reflect the weakness because it involves using what they consider "lesser" WS's or b/c they don't want the hassle of changing macros, etc. The fact that this makes it impossible for me to even determine efficacy of the alternate chain through a parser makes me utterly unable to provide concrete evidence that such a thing might be better than what they're currently doing. For instance, a pair of NIN's ends up doing Retsu->To (Detonation [Wind]) instead of Rin->Retsu (Distortion [Water/Ice]) because they don't like Rin vs. Flies (which are weak vs. Ice) for a Blizzard MB... I couldn't even check to see if it might be better... This particular event was as RDM--I was bursting since we didn't have a BLM, but not doing general nukes.

Icemage was referring the issues of BLMs in HNM situations and 70ish+ XP PTs, where TP/melee burn PTs neglect the need of a BLM (actually, where BLM becomes a "slowing down" factor). In your situation, Sabaron, it's not so much of a issue due to game mechanics, but to the attitude of people in PTs (nonetheless, BLMs function great at lower level XP PTs where TP/melee burn are less realistic).

I had already commented on that side, in detail, as per issues with a certain other poster and was simply adding on in comment to some of the remarks made regarding other types of PTs. My opinion on the rest of the thread topic remains the same:

Recalibration of WS/SC/MB interactions.

Icemage was referring the issues of BLMs in HNM situations and 70ish+ XP PTs, where TP/melee burn PTs neglect the need of a BLM (actually, where BLM becomes a "slowing down" factor).

I don't know, but from what I've always understood, many HNMs require a BLM. So I don't think this is an issue. I think the problem lies with players not using skillchains which would make a BLM useful. However, forcing players to skillchain won't change anything either. There's got to be a real need to have BLMs in the first place. Skillchains is just one fact, a big one maybe, but not the only reason. BLM downtime breaks chances for chain #200.

Essentially, just changing ToAU mobs to have the same defense as an Apocalyptic Weapon in Sky and maybe adjusting respawn rate so that it's not THAT FAST might make a difference. All areas where 70s use to exp are very empty aside from a few players w/o ToAU installed. Changing the ToAU areas will not affect the exp situation. All it will do is just spread out players more.

Also, change signet in the older areas to give similar exp bonuses.

I had already commented on that side, in detail, as per issues with a certain other poster and was simply adding on in comment to some of the remarks made regarding other types of PTs. My opinion on the rest of the thread topic remains the same:
Recalibration of WS/SC/MB interactions.

One thing about the WS/SC/MB thing you have to be cautious of though, is at one point Melee's were very irritated that they had to rely on Mages for damage. BLMs ended up gaining this golden pedastel because the logic was if you want great damage you need to MB. That is why I'm not very keen on changing the damage formula just to make it were the BLM does result it in being a tremendous amount better. It just creates to much problems, even though it seems logically sound to do human arrogance will complete F*** that up.

You'll get BLMs running around again thinking they are better then everyone else, and getting those smug remarks from them that when the chance comes you'll have a bad fall out between mages and melee.

Why a more non-centralized benefits is better, ones that won't particulary help the BLMs. Basically sure the BLM contributes good damage but his contribution helps the melee also perform better afterwards. To sum up it's basically Melee supports Mage to do good damage in turn ends up supporting Melee with helpful effects that make them even better. The "I scratch your back and you scratch mine type of approach".

Mages do all sorts of things that do this. Unfortunately, BLM's do not have much in the way of support magic. We RDM's provide debuffs and enhancements to melees that give them a significant edge. BLM is on the far edge of magicry--the DD edge. Their skills are concentrated almost entirely on generating magic-based damage.

The only issue I have with creating "Buff Bursts" as was mentioned earlier is that it feels sort of "foreign" like it doesn't mesh well with the games overall aesthetics. It also creates a lot of new variables that get thrown into the equation that might make BLM the thing to have... I mean, Stoneskinra on a nuke is very nice, even if it's weak and if they stack...better invite two BLMs. Heck, just combine two super-hasted SAMs, a RDM or BRD and 3 BLMs and you have a new elitist party.

You never know how new content is going to effect dynamics. For that matter you never know how changing existing content will effect them either. The idea is to move slowly. Determine what might appear to be a better WS/SC/MB damage equation set and then slowly change your coefficients starting at the status-quo until you find the sweet spot, and if you never do, well, back to the drawing board. A bit of experimentation and careful adjustment is needed.

Hardly exploitable if you are only getting around 1/5 of your MP back on a MB.

I don't know, but from what I've always understood, many HNMs require a BLM. So I don't think this is an issue. I think the problem lies with players not using skillchains which would make a BLM useful. However, forcing players to skillchain won't change anything either. There's got to be a real need to have BLMs in the first place. Skillchains is just one fact, a big one maybe, but not the only reason. BLM downtime breaks chances for chain #200.

Oh, as in the issue of HNM fights heavily relying on BLMs heavily nuking and the lack of participation of melee.

Hardly exploitable if you are only getting around 1/5 of your MP back on a MB.I'd say it wouldn't be exploitable if they made sure it only kicked in when Conserve MP did NOT fire off. Otherwise, a BLM MBs Light with Firaga III, get 55MP back because they landed the MB'd, and Conserve MP kicks in so only 200MP was used. That's 132MP "gained" right there, making this Firaga III in question, damn near half off.

Granted we can't bank on Conserve MP kicking in and saving you that much MP, but at the same time it seems like some days Conserve MP is on overdrive. (I've recieved back to back Refreshes for 10MP, and I've also had some Warps that cost less than 100MP.) Maybe it should be 1~5% of damage MB turned into MP?

Mages do all sorts of things that do this. Unfortunately, BLM's do not have much in the way of support magic. We RDM's provide debuffs and enhancements to melees that give them a significant edge. BLM is on the far edge of magicry--the DD edge. Their skills are concentrated almost entirely on generating magic-based damage.
The only issue I have with creating "Buff Bursts" as was mentioned earlier is that it feels sort of "foreign" like it doesn't mesh well with the games overall aesthetics. It also creates a lot of new variables that get thrown into the equation that might make BLM the thing to have... I mean, Stoneskinra on a nuke is very nice, even if it's weak and if they stack...better invite two BLMs. Heck, just combine two super-hasted SAMs, a RDM or BRD and 3 BLMs and you have a new elitist party.
You never know how new content is going to effect dynamics. For that matter you never know how changing existing content will effect them either. The idea is to move slowly. Determine what might appear to be a better WS/SC/MB damage equation set and then slowly change your coefficients starting at the status-quo until you find the sweet spot, and if you never do, well, back to the drawing board. A bit of experimentation and careful adjustment is needed.


They can keep adjusting but if doesn't draw the players intrest to actually do it's useless. Unfortunatly the way many Americans are, and I have 3 million sales and 300k survey responces that confirm, they aren't patient to wait for tweaks to get it just right. You need some sort of token gesture added to keep their intrest.

Basically you give them a stick they'll have fun with it for a while, start adding rules on what they can do with the stick and starts losing it's appeal. Then wait you add a shiney coin with the stick and it become intresting. The idea isn't to make some thing extreemly good, just something that'll help briefly. Why I was trying to fit it around what you'd get off moogle events, some are helpful little trinkets were it's bonuses basically is just enough that without would of gone worse.

The timers are going along the effect of medicine like stuff, they provide the effect immediatly but can't get the effect again till the medicine effect wears. That would prevent the 1 hit prevention like stoneskin from turning into a like Utsusemi thing, it prevents that 1 sleep from being sleep immunity, it prevents 5% Cure from replacing WHMs as a compiling heal effect, it prevents 1 stun from being 100% stun resistance, and so on. Also to notice the one I didn't have to a 1 hit wonder was the att. & rng. att. bonus, which it would fade after the times up, this prov