Utsusemi: Ni - Are they making it a level 38 cast??

[Visper]

As the Title states are they going to do this...and if so when, Just real curious. I am happy about the changes to SAM because I didnt really like WAR/NIN, it was all anyone wanted, I think WAR/SAM w/GA will be an awsome DD.

[Intensity]

"That wraps up the job-related changes coming in the next version update. More are scheduled for future updates, though, so keep checking the main page for the latest news!"

Apparently not. They aren't adding Jubaku: Ni either. Bastards.

[KoukiRyu]

Err I'm guessing you got that from the talk about the update...one person just mentioned that it'd be cool, and a good kick in the pants for the game. No one ever solidly stated that it would happen that I know of, and it was just speculation that a few people were interested in. As far as it being changed, nothing of the sort has been announced by SE about that, and I wouldn't think that that's actually going to happen.

[neighbortaru]

lol this really needs to stop.

SE has not, to this date, announced any changes, nor desire to change, Utsusemi: Ni.

That was a player suggested idea.

[Visper]

just checkin...geez. I heard it from someone in my linkshell and just wanted to confirm. Anyway it does get kind of annoying that every job subs nin (I actually saw a DRG/NIN the other day...) I do think that w/the updates to SAM that WAR will have another good sub and actually get to use their A+ weapon..GA!!

[neighbortaru]

just checkin...geez. I heard it from someone in my linkshell and just wanted to confirm. it's fascinating how rumour spreads isn't it...

[Visper]

yes actually it is, I really didnt think it would be possible to change spell levels but as I said I was just checking (the guy on my LS said they definetly where) has SE ever done it, aka change spell levels? I just think you would really piss off alot of people.

[Omni]

lol yea, where did this one come from?

just read the official news, its all there.

[Visper]

lol ya I know about this update...I'm not a retard...I was talking about future!!

[neighbortaru]

yes actually it is, I really didnt think it would be possible to change spell levels but as I said I was just checking (the guy on my LS said they definetly where) has SE ever done it, aka change spell levels? I just think you would really piss off alot of people. 1. smack your LS mate on the head. make fun of him too (optional)

2. afaik, they've never changed a level of a spell. At least none have occurred withing recent updates, but it's possible it might have happened during JP release/NA beta.

[Omni]

lol ya I know about this update...I'm not a retard...I was talking about future!!

... right, hold up. I think Doc Brown can take me to go check later today. I'll get back to you on this one.

[Visper]

kk Omni, hop right on that would ya :) while your there get the winner of this comming world series and superbowl.

[Omni]

Padres and Chargers.

[Visper]

1. smack your LS mate on the head. make fun of him too (optional)

2. afaik, they've never changed a level of a spell. At least none have occurred withing recent updates, but it's possible it might have happened during JP release/NA beta.

Ya he's definetly askin for a smack down, no biggie tho, maybe I could be worse and tell him ya they're definetly doin it so dont bother getting Ni to sub your nin!!

[Malevolent]

Yes Visper they've changed spell lvls before. like when Raise for PLD used to be able to use at lvl 75 i think...now its like a lvl 50 spell...they've done it before they could do it again if they wanted.

[neighbortaru]

like when Raise for PLD used to be able to use at lvl 75 i think...now its like a lvl 50 spell oh right, forgot about that one.

[Liquidedust]

1. smack your LS mate on the head. make fun of him too (optional)
2. afaik, they've never changed a level of a spell. At least none have occurred withing recent updates, but it's possible it might have happened during JP release/NA beta.

Yeah nothing is set in stone of "official" until posted at POL (some hints can usually be given from interviews at Festivals etc . . . but usually never give the exact details of an update).

On the other issue most recent spell change would be Raise for Paladin, but there the change were from PLD75 to PLD50 and happened in the September 2004 update (at around CoP release).

It weren't that recent (basically 2 years ago now) but were around EU release so were a lot after NA release (this is just to be nitpicky though).

http://www.playonline.com/updateus/general/ng01.gifThe level required for paladins to use the white magic spell "Raise" has been lowered from 75 to 50.

EDIT: Damn Malevolent beat me to it . . . .

[Ziero]

Actually there were tons of spell lvl changes and down right removals since the game was released iirc. I remember seeing a thread on Alla way back when (before it was IGE'd) about all the changes that occured since the release of the game until that point and there were a bunch of Rdm spells changed around and such.

[Macht]

Actually there were tons of spell lvl changes and down right removals since the game was released iirc. I remember seeing a thread on Alla way back when (before it was IGE'd) about all the changes that occured since the release of the game until that point and there were a bunch of Rdm spells changed around and such.

Yes, when the game was very young there were a lot of spell level changes. Now though it's a bit more stable and it's also become a careful acrobat because for some silly reason the larger a community gets the less they seem to like changes.

[ikkleste]

if any thing i'd say that this update makes it less likey that would happen. By altering SAm the way they have they've effectively given 2H'ers a boost to hopefully bring them up to the level 1Hers are with a NIN sub. This certainly lessens the imbalences that were upsetting people and hopefully creates a full range of options for weapons again, a WAR isn't going to be forced into NIN sub if GA and SAM sub works well as well. If it works there'll hopefully be less people worried about/NIN dominance.

[Maju]

if any thing i'd say that this update makes it less likey that would happen. By altering SAm the way they have they've effectively given 2H'ers a boost to hopefully bring them up to the level 1Hers are with a NIN sub. This certainly lessens the imbalences that were upsetting people and hopefully creates a full range of options for weapons again, a WAR isn't going to be forced into NIN sub if GA and SAM sub works well as well. If it works there'll hopefully be less people worried about/NIN dominance.

For WARs, yes you might and probably will reach WAR/NIN damage output as WAR/SAM. However, it still won't change a thing. Why? Just take a look at what kind of jobs sub NIN. We see MNK/NIN, DRG/NIN, DRK/NIN and SAM/NIN. None of those jobs gains any additional offensive power at all from subbing NIN, yet they do it so they could survive in battle.

Just because /SAM will boost 2H user damage output, nobody is going to use it unless it gives defense comparable to /NIN and I doubt even the new and vastly improved Third Eye can compete with the imbalanceness of Utsusemi.

[Grizzlebeard]

lol yea, where did this one come from?
just read the official news, its all there.
Whistles innocently. (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ninja/50893-should-utsusemi-ni-level-38-above.html)

[Jei]

When I heard about the SMN changes, I thought it was rumors too.

[Grizzlebeard]

S-E is all about making the simplest things take the longest possible time. With that in mind I could honestly see them knocking Utsusemi: Ni back to 38 or higher in an effort to kneecap the merit burn parties. The fact that this would actually level the playing field for jobs other than warrior, bard and red mage is neither here nor there.

[Nekomieu]

For WARs, yes you might and probably will reach WAR/NIN damage output as WAR/SAM. However, it still won't change a thing. Why? Just take a look at what kind of jobs sub NIN. We see MNK/NIN, DRG/NIN, DRK/NIN and SAM/NIN. None of those jobs gains any additional offensive power at all from subbing NIN, yet they do it so they could survive in battle.

Just because /SAM will boost 2H user damage output, nobody is going to use it unless it gives defense comparable to /NIN and I doubt even the new and vastly improved Third Eye can compete with the imbalanceness of Utsusemi.

We won't know how it will change things untill we get it, unfortunately.

Also, they don't sub Nin for survivability, they do it to not take the 100-200 points they might take from gaining aggro, it's only because of lazy tanks, and scared players that shadows are so important. People are sacraficing soo much versatility when they do it, and it's just reinforcing a cycle, and creating bad players.

Everyone is scared that their White Mage might use some mp, and as a White Mage, I can tell you how boring 95% of the parties are past 40 or so. Plus there's the fact that if you are standing there for 5 fights picking your nose, and decide to entertain yourself by casting banish, you get yelled at for "wasteing mp" when you weren't using any in the first place (and the regen from refresh makes up the mp cast exactily).

I'd add more, but I have to run, so, yea...

[Grizzlebeard]

Also, they don't sub Nin for survivability, they do it to not take the 100-200 points they might take from gaining aggro, it's only because of lazy tanks, and scared players that shadows are so important.

No offence, but from the moment warriors can sub Utsusemi: Ni your job as a white mage in exp parties ceases to exist. Why have a dedicated healer when a bunch of DD jobs can bounce hate among themselves with the odd spot heal from a bard or red mage while gaining beneficial songs and buffs enabling them to kill the mobs so fast that their shadows are enough to ensure they rarely take a point of damage.

[Malevolent]

For WARs, yes you might and probably will reach WAR/NIN damage output as WAR/SAM. However, it still won't change a thing. Why? Just take a look at what kind of jobs sub NIN. We see MNK/NIN, DRG/NIN, DRK/NIN and SAM/NIN. None of those jobs gains any additional offensive power at all from subbing NIN, yet they do it so they could survive in battle.

Just because /SAM will boost 2H user damage output, nobody is going to use it unless it gives defense comparable to /NIN and I doubt even the new and vastly improved Third Eye can compete with the imbalanceness of Utsusemi.

has a good point. Now since i have nin lvled to 15 i did some farming in Prom-Dem and i subbed /nin basically for shadows and Duel wield....basically survivability.../sam will pump out the offense but won't stack up to the defense of /nin.

[Omni]

No offence, but from the moment warriors can sub Utsusemi: Ni your job as a white mage in exp parties ceases to exist. Why have a dedicated healer when a bunch of DD jobs can bounce hate among themselves with the odd spot heal from a bard or red mage while gaining beneficial songs and buffs enabling them to kill the mobs so fast that their shadows are enough to ensure they rarely take a point of damage.

Very true.
No one is scared of a whm using mp. It all comes down to efficiency. I really hate to say, nowadays, having a dedicated healer is not efficient when you're exping towards 75, even before then actually. Even with a pld in Mire, you do not need a dedicated healer. Having a pld with Auto-refresh, Sanction refresh and 1 outside refresh, that's 5mp/tick. And with how fast those mobs goes down, even plds dont need all that much healing help other than the spot heal from your friendly brd or rdm.

This is why SE is trying to make whm the ultimate healing job of choice. They know its not efficient to have a job that only heals, while others can heal, refresh, debuff, buff and even do a little dmg.

I highly doubt that people would say anything to you about casting banish when you are in a burn pt. That isnt the issue anyways. The issue is that your party slot if better filled by a brd, blu, rdm, or cor.

Again, the whole reason why SE wants to make whm the 1 and only choice when it comes to healing.

[Aeni]

I have to agree with some of the comments with regards to job classes like WHM. They are hurting. Changes like adjusting SAM as a subjob means jack when there's huge visible problems that are just crying for remedies. We got WHMs that are unwanted and PLDs "siding" with evil by subbing NIN and LFP as a DD rather than as their class defining position.

This outrage has got to stop, but SE isn't doing jack. And as more and more players start to leave the game, SE better not come crying a year later and asking how to best improve the game so that it can have the best Return to Vana'Diel campaign ever.

[Nekomieu]

Very true.
No one is scared of a whm using mp. It all comes down to efficiency. I really hate to say, nowadays, having a dedicated healer is not efficient when you're exping towards 75, even before then actually. Even with a pld in Mire, you do not need a dedicated healer. Having a pld with Auto-refresh, Sanction refresh and 1 outside refresh, that's 5mp/tick. And with how fast those mobs goes down, even plds dont need all that much healing help other than the spot heal from your friendly brd or rdm.

This is why SE is trying to make whm the ultimate healing job of choice. They know its not efficient to have a job that only heals, while others can heal, refresh, debuff, buff and even do a little dmg.

I highly doubt that people would say anything to you about casting banish when you are in a burn pt. That isnt the issue anyways. The issue is that your party slot if better filled by a brd, blu, rdm, or cor.

Again, the whole reason why SE wants to make whm the 1 and only choice when it comes to healing.

There are burn parties, and psudo-burn parties (Parties who use burn tactics, but are to shoddy do do them right). You don't know which is which untill you have the mob eating your face after a cure III.

Also I have seen several people talk about WHite Mage mp as though it were a sacred resource, that casting a 15 mp spell is going to get everyone killed. Also since hate is so poorly controled, that banish may very well pull it towards me x_x (not likely, but anythign oculd happen).

What I feel the issue is isn't that other jorbs can heal in thoes parties, it's that thoes partys exist, and are as efficient as they are. That every job at 74+ subs Ninja because that one ability is so powerful that it lets people completely ignore party structure, and have either Red Mage, Blue Mage, or the one guy who subs white mage cure the whole party. Also it lets them completely ignore the need for a dedicated tank so no one cares where the mob's attention is, as long as everyone is hitting it.

I guess the matter is not what can we do to other jobs to make them better than subbing Ninja, because at this point, there is no way to make anything better than :Ni the only solution that really sticks out is changing :ni to 38, it dosen't impact Ninja at all, they get the spell a level later, oh-boy... But it fixes the lvl 74-74 problems that half the classes suffer from (or only a few classes, but you know, if any class is suffering, then it's an issue).

[Caspian]

I don't think changing it to 38 will necessarily fix it. Had a semi tp burn at lvl 58 on lesser colibri a while back. Only healer was a brd/whm. At that lvl NIN is the only job with Ni and we still did great. And thats without all the amazing gear that comes at the later levels, merits, and even more powerful songs that BRDs get. Would it make it a bit harder? Yes, you'd probably have to make an inkling of an effort to keep hate on a NIN/WAR in the party, but probably nothing that should drop more than 1 maybe 2k/hr at most. And thats when pt's are currently making 15-20k/hr. Atleast in the party I was in (I know its not a true endgame TP burn, but it was basically a dumbed down version) there was no reason you'd be getting hit more than 6 times. (2x Ichi)
It sounds good in principle, but I think people would find a way to get it to continue to work.

[Aeni]

I don't think changing it to 38 will necessarily fix it. Had a semi tp burn at lvl 58 on lesser colibri a while back. Only healer was a brd/whm. At that lvl NIN is the only job with Ni and we still did great. And thats without all the amazing gear that comes at the later levels, merits, and even more powerful songs that BRDs get. Would it make it a bit harder? Yes, you'd probably have to make an inkling of an effort to keep hate on a NIN/WAR in the party, but probably nothing that should drop more than 1 maybe 2k/hr at most. And thats when pt's are currently making 15-20k/hr. Atleast in the party I was in (I know its not a true endgame TP burn, but it was basically a dumbed down version) there was no reason you'd be getting hit more than 6 times. (2x Ichi)
It sounds good in principle, but I think people would find a way to get it to continue to work.

Colibri's is an extreme and poor example. It is just one mob and maybe there's only one or two other like it in the entire game outside of level 10-20 where you can exp with some of the oddest party combinations you can pull out of your rear.

Try that setup on Puks or those Crawlers in the Subterranean. I bet you the NIN will at least die 5 times in your combination.

[Omni]

There are burn parties, and psudo-burn parties (Parties who use burn tactics, but are to shoddy do do them right). You don't know which is which untill you have the mob eating your face after a cure III.
Also I have seen several people talk about WHite Mage mp as though it were a sacred resource, that casting a 15 mp spell is going to get everyone killed. Also since hate is so poorly controled, that banish may very well pull it towards me x_x (not likely, but anythign oculd happen).
What I feel the issue is isn't that other jorbs can heal in thoes parties, it's that thoes partys exist, and are as efficient as they are. That every job at 74+ subs Ninja because that one ability is so powerful that it lets people completely ignore party structure, and have either Red Mage, Blue Mage, or the one guy who subs white mage cure the whole party. Also it lets them completely ignore the need for a dedicated tank so no one cares where the mob's attention is, as long as everyone is hitting it.
I guess the matter is not what can we do to other jobs to make them better than subbing Ninja, because at this point, there is no way to make anything better than :Ni the only solution that really sticks out is changing :ni to 38, it dosen't impact Ninja at all, they get the spell a level later, oh-boy... But it fixes the lvl 74-74 problems that half the classes suffer from (or only a few classes, but you know, if any class is suffering, then it's an issue).

Oh I have no problem with pushing Ni to 38+, actually if you have time to read the link that grizzlebeard posted, I'm one of the proponents of just that.

However, I think that it is also good that other jobs can heal as efficiently as they do. Though, at your expense I might add. But, from a melee point of view or pt leader point of view, if the reliance of healing rested solely on whm, we would have yet another issue on our hands. Lack of whm.

I mean, if every pt needed a whm like every pt needs a refresher right now. It would make forming pts and getting invites even more difficult that it is now for some people.

Giving whm more usefullness is probably the only solution that can be implemented w/o further skewing PT dynamics.

[Lmnop]

I was reading that thread posted by Grizzlebeard, and I kept agreeing with every one of Lmnop's comments... :P

To someone (Maju, I think): I believe the Third Eye update will basically give all the 2hander jobs the equivalent of Utsusemi:Ichi. one spell for very temporary protection. However, it won't have the huge cast time which brings me to my next point:

They should just like... switch the Utsu casting times. if Ichi were 1 second cast and Ni were 4 second cast (though 3 and 4 shadows respectively, as normal) then it'd make it errr less horrible if they took away :Ni. Though I'd still hate it just for the sake of Thf/nin. They deserve everything they can get.

Parties burn pre-75. Hey, wanna hear something funny? I fought Puks with this party layout: Nin/war, war/nin, war/nin.... that's it. VT Puks and we made at least 6k/hour. Well, we had a cheat. The nin that made the party had an outside WHM that would toss a cure 3 every other fight. Well, that's how it started anyway. Soon the ninja started getting sleepy and she started sucking hardcore and it was basically 2 war/nins duoing everything.

It's been 6 months since I've had an invite to a party that wanted an SC. And I'm still not 75. I think that sums up "tp burn emulation."