multi-hit WS and TP

[seq]

why multi-hit WS's TP modifies the first hit of the WS?
something like Rampage (Critical hit varies with TP) if a WAR (or BST or any job that can use it) built 300TP and used it, only the first hit will be a 300TP hit and the other hits at 100TP... why not all 300TP?
more like Penta thrust (Damage varies with TP) only the first hit is in effect of 300TP and the other 4 hits... 100TP..... why not 300TP if the player built 300TP already...
i'de like to build TP for such WSs, but since it's only for the first hit why should i bother.

[Zamphire]

Because 5 hits, even if not effected by tp is still better then a one hit WS.

[Haggai]

Why bother waiting until 300? Most WSs dmg/tp value is best at 100%. You'll do better damage over time shooting off at 100%.

Then again, this may be the reason.

[Raydeus]

This is one of the questions I'd really like seeing SE giving a response to.

The way it is now makes saving 300 TP seem pretty uselss for the most part if you compare it with the damage 3 separate 100 TP WS would do.

[Haggai]

This is one of the questions I'd really like seeing SE giving a response to.

The way it is now makes saving 300 TP seem pretty uselss for the most part if you compare it with the damage 3 separate 100 TP WS would do.
Plus, getting 100TP three times is faster than getting 300TP once because using the WS gives TP.

[Armando]

Because 5 hits, even if not effected by tp is still better then a one hit WS.This statement is misleading. A 5-hit WS with an fTP of 1.0 and a one-hit WS with an fTP of 5.0, on average, are equivalent. If the 5-hit WS has chances to crit but the one-hit doesn't, the 5-hit will pull ahead. However, if you SA the one-hit WS, it's the equivalent of having crit'd all 5 hits of the multi-hit WS.
The way it is now makes saving 300 TP seem pretty uselss for the most part if you compare it with the damage 3 separate 100 TP WS would do.And if they had made it backwards, there wouldn't be much sense in having only 100 TP. Saving up to 300 TP isn't useless, it's just not useful in an EXP party. Two DD's with 300 TP Skillchaining can open an anticipated fight (popped NMs, etc.) with a big advantage.

[seq]

Plus, getting 100TP three times is faster than getting 300TP once because using the WS gives TP.
and if the first hit of the multi hit WS missed you'll get hmmm 4TP (or less) which is nothing.
think of Asuran fists as an example, 8 godly hits (Accuracy varies with TP) when a MNK saves 300TP the first hit will get the good accuracy but 7 hits will be left out with a 100TP.
edit the description of the WSs and say "first hit Accuracy vary with TP, 7 hits 100TP" or fix it so all the hits have the same TP the player used, please. >.>

[Raydeus]

And if they had made it backwards, there wouldn't be much sense in having only 100 TP. Saving up to 300 TP isn't useless, it's just not useful in an EXP party. Two DD's with 300 TP Skillchaining can open an anticipated fight (popped NMs, etc.) with a big advantage.

But still, considering the time it takes to gather 300 TP (even for a SAM) the damage increase you get in return is very dissapointing in most cases. It's not like you'd have to gather 300TP everytime, but more about that when you did it really made a difference.

Now, I don't know if making all hits count as the same TP as the first hit would be the best way to improve this, especially since I don't know the math behind WS damage calculation and most of the things I've seen are more guesstimates than anything.

Which is why I would like seeing SE answering this question.

[Aeni]

why multi-hit WS's TP modifies the first hit of the WS?
something like Rampage (Critical hit varies with TP) if a WAR (or BST or any job that can use it) built 300TP and used it, only the first hit will be a 300TP hit and the other hits at 100TP... why not all 300TP?
more like Penta thrust (Damage varies with TP) only the first hit is in effect of 300TP and the other 4 hits... 100TP..... why not 300TP if the player built 300TP already...
i'de like to build TP for such WSs, but since it's only for the first hit why should i bother.

I do know the reason (This is just an educated guess)

Remember when WSs would return full TP on each successful strike from a multi-hit weapon skills? Think about it for a moment. What happened?

SE reduced the TP gained from each strike after the first hit.

Think about what the OP has asked.

TP effect only affects the first hit on a multi-hit WS.

Coincidence? No, I think not. If you think about it like this, all of a sudden, you have a new angle to look at how the whole WS/TP system is working. Seems like they are very closely tied together.

Changing one apparently changed the other. I'm sure people got full effect from each strike back when they could get full TP as well.

[Macht]

I do know the reason (This is just an educated guess)
Remember when WSs would return full TP on each successful strike from a multi-hit weapon skills? Think about it for a moment. What happened?
SE reduced the TP gained from each strike after the first hit.
Think about what the OP has asked.
TP effect only affects the first hit on a multi-hit WS.
Coincidence? No, I think not. If you think about it like this, all of a sudden, you have a new angle to look at how the whole WS/TP system is working. Seems like they are very closely tied together.
Changing one apparently changed the other. I'm sure people got full effect from each strike back when they could get full TP as well.

This would suggest a significant damage difference with certain WSs if that was the case, yet damage is still like it was before that change. So if anything this logic proves that TP had been gained wrong from the start and it wasn't to stop infinite Asuran Fist cycles that MNKs could make.

[Aeni]

This would suggest a significant damage difference with certain WSs if that was the case, yet damage is still like it was before that change. So if anything this logic proves that TP had been gained wrong from the start and it wasn't to stop infinite Asuran Fist cycles that MNKs could make.

Actually, Macht, there were significant reduction in damage. Remember when the DRKs cried "Guillotine nerf" and Dragoons cried "Pentathrust" nerf? They weren't only talking about TP either...

This is why the "importers" sometimes would say things like how tp modified damage on Guillotine (When in fact it has NOTHING to do with damage - only the duration of silence) because, at one point in time, Guillotine's damage was TP dependant or had shared the the modifiers with the silence duration.

This is why you sometimes see the change referred to as being a "nerf to melee damage" which in essence there was a shred of truth to that claim, considering the huge void which was immediately filled by nothing but BLMs (Which continues today with SMNs)

[bside]

why multi-hit WS's TP modifies the first hit of the WS?
something like Rampage (Critical hit varies with TP) if a WAR (or BST or any job that can use it) built 300TP and used it, only the first hit will be a 300TP hit and the other hits at 100TP... why not all 300TP?
more like Penta thrust (Damage varies with TP) only the first hit is in effect of 300TP and the other 4 hits... 100TP..... why not 300TP if the player built 300TP already...
i'de like to build TP for such WSs, but since it's only for the first hit why should i bother.

To my knowledge, it's only tested and confirmed for those WS' w/ TP: modifies damage. Other WS' such as Rampage are yet to be tested for confirmation, while there was the Rampage's parse on Studio Gobli (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Part/6371/)'s forum that suggests that at least critical modifier works on all hits, but that wasn't a enough data to prove.

It takes too much data to come up w/ the definite answer. Damage modifier is rather easier to test, but when it comes to accuracy and critical, we have to use WS' for 1,000+ times under the proper testing environment, which nobody bothered to carry out yet.


Though in Japanese, these are the references that might be helpful;

Studio Gobli (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Part/6371/)
FF11 Encyclopedia of Terminologies, page on multi-hit WS (http://pomum.org/?%C2%BF%C3%CAWS)
Testing Thread Archives (http://pamama.hp.infoseek.co.jp/FF11kensyou/index.html)

[Anaki]

im confused if the 300 tp is only the first hit then why is it if i get 300 tp and penta i can do more then just a bit more damage with all 5 hits landing. like 100 tp versus 300 tp is damage of 1 to 2 with all 5 hits landing both times. is the firsthit 90% of the wses damage then??

[VZX]

penta's multiplier for 100,200, and 300% TP are 0.75,1.00,2.25 according to studio gobli. for consecutive attacks, multiplier is 1.00
so you can think this way:
5 hit @ 100% : 0.75 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4.75
5 hit @ 200% TP : 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5.00
5 hit @ 300% TP : 2.25 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6.25

so higher TP can help the damage, but if it doesn't affect the accuracy that much, the effect should be insignificant

[Celeal]

Actually, Macht, there were significant reduction in damage. Remember when the DRKs cried "Guillotine nerf" and Dragoons cried "Pentathrust" nerf? They weren't only talking about TP either...

This is why the "importers" sometimes would say things like how tp modified damage on Guillotine (When in fact it has NOTHING to do with damage - only the duration of silence) because, at one point in time, Guillotine's damage was TP dependant or had shared the the modifiers with the silence duration.

This is why you sometimes see the change referred to as being a "nerf to melee damage" which in essence there was a shred of truth to that claim, considering the huge void which was immediately filled by nothing but BLMs (Which continues today with SMNs)

Yea, it is so true. I remember the time after the WS-TP adjustment when a lot of DD has trouble when compare against RNG (before range attack adjustment).

[Vyuru]

One thing I would like them to change is that right now, if you miss the first hit on penta thrust, you only get 4tp back, it would be nice if SE made it so that the first hit that lands get's the full tp/damage, and the rest are at 100% tp and 1%tp regain.

Good to know about the 300% for the first hit, and all others are at 100%, i didn't know that.

[Macht]

In any case thing that annoys me, is how could someone be so sure of any of that mathmatic being right. I mean I could easily go and say that it's:

100%TP = 0.95 mult
200%TP = 1 mult
300%TP = 1.25 mult

5 hits @ 100% TP = 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 = 4.75
5 hits @ 200% TP = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5.00
5 hits @ 300% TP = 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 = 6.25

I mean have they actually gotten many results were only the first hit landed and no others? That would prove so much more.

[Armando]

Well, for one thing, it's kinda established that only the first hit will actually vary. It wouldn't be impossible to test, though - just test it on a mob several levels higher than an EXP mob, SAWS it, the first hit will land and the others will probably miss, especially with how iffy Penta Thrust is. If you want to avoid the first hit and test the others, you could find a NIN mob with shadows up. Besides, Studio Gobli is known for being very meticulous.

[bside]

In any case thing that annoys me, is how could someone be so sure of any of that mathmatic being right. I mean I could easily go and say that it's:

100%TP = 0.95 mult
200%TP = 1 mult
300%TP = 1.25 mult

5 hits @ 100% TP = 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 = 4.75
5 hits @ 200% TP = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5.00
5 hits @ 300% TP = 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 = 6.25

I mean have they actually gotten many results were only the first hit landed and no others? That would prove so much more.

Like Armando said, there are ways to test things like that, and yes, results that Studio Gobli posts are based on numerous number of tests (refer to the links I posted earlier in this thread), that are controlled, valid, and reliable.

We know how many hits we did by looking at how much TP we got right after WS', there's a tested and trustworthy formula to calculate WS damages, and we can expect how much damage we should be doing by using them. Not to mention we can also control hits by some degree, like using it to almost-dead mobs so only the first hit lands, thereby finding/making sure of what the first hit's multiplier is. And after that, you can test consecutive hits, one by one.


While some people tend to say things based on nothing but their feelings, those results are there not because they "felt like it," but because there are numbers that support them. Of course, as we tacitly understand, whether you believe such results or not is entirely up to you. But so long as the outcomes have supported it, and that they are based on the numerous amount of controlled tests, I as a one trust them.

[Macht]

Like Armando said, there are ways to test things like that, and yes, results that Studio Gobli posts are based on numerous number of tests (refer to the links I posted earlier in this thread), that are controlled, valid, and reliable.
We know how many hits we did by looking at how much TP we got right after WS', there's a tested and trustworthy formula to calculate WS damages, and we can expect how much damage we should be doing by using them. Not to mention we can also control hits by some degree, like using it to almost-dead mobs so only the first hit lands, thereby finding/making sure of what the first hit's multiplier is. And after that, you can test consecutive hits, one by one.
While some people tend to say things based on nothing but their feelings, those results are there not because they "felt like it," but because there are numbers that support them. Of course, as we tacitly understand, whether you believe such results or not is entirely up to you. But so long as the outcomes have supported it, and that they are based on the numerous amount of controlled tests, I as a one trust them.


I've done many Sidewinder on near dead mobs out of curiosity of that. No way a mob that I know would die from 200 damage would be taking a single hit from a sidewinder for 1k+ damage. I've seen the obvious difference because Barrage does stop after mob has taken the damage amount (It's why the weak mobs around the starting town will only take around 300-400 damage from a barrage but still takes 2k+ from a sidewinder.

Hell even off a non-ranged weapon in acordance to the damage they take from a normal hit indicates that the WS damage still deals the full thing weather the mob had enough or not. I did try the links but it's just way to much talking is all I could find an nothing that looked like actual test results.

I do know full well that you get normal TP from first and 1 for each subsequent. I have had multi-hit WS hit only on 1st and only 1 time on a subsequent, damage didn't look any different to me especially of 300% TP to indicate that the first is that drastically different. According to the data displayed at 300% TP it seems that the damage on 1st and subsequent should be drastic I mean god on WS that 2.25 multiplier on a 300% TP means that the damage difference should be very drastic.

I'm just stating with all the developed game structures I've seen others make and done myself this just doesn't jive right. It just sounds like speculated guess using the idea that in an ability like SA only counts for first hit and rest don't get the bonus in a multi-hit WS. That would make sense then because SA is suppose to be for 1 hit only.

It's fun trying to read through those linked sites, but I could not find anything that seriously looked like test data.

[Raydeus]

so higher TP can help the damage, but if it doesn't affect the accuracy that much, the effect should be insignificant

I think that would be one of the best ways to improve multi-hit WS (and 1 hit WS too), by giving a good and reliable acc bonus acording to the TP used.

[Icemage]

The easiest way to test the damage for multihit WS would be to enter Diorama-Abdjalis and have someone cast Utsusemi, attack them twice, then use the multihit WS.

You could even test things like Pentathrust with a Ninja and a Dragoon by using Pentathrust against a 4 shadow Utsusemi: Ni.

Just because things are difficult to test does not make them impossible, and the group at Studio Gobli are particularly well-known for their research methods. I can't read Japanese, but I'll take bside's word that the research is there.


Icemage

[Macht]

The easiest way to test the damage for multihit WS would be to enter Diorama-Abdjalis and have someone cast Utsusemi, attack them twice, then use the multihit WS.
You could even test things like Pentathrust with a Ninja and a Dragoon by using Pentathrust against a 4 shadow Utsusemi: Ni.
Just because things are difficult to test does not make them impossible, and the group at Studio Gobli are particularly well-known for their research methods. I can't read Japanese, but I'll take bside's word that the research is there.
Icemage

Yeah, that's just my problem with it. It's also what's been molded into me from my Father, Mother, and even my work. I just won't take someone's word at face value, if the miles of testing results is there I want that before I trust anything.

Also don't forget that Ballista stuff does play on different rules then normal fights, it has to in order to level the playing field some between players. I mean a mage that can just put everyone to sleep over and over gives to much power for a player vs. player match. So of course a resistance build is there and it increases, since it's playing with some altered physics got to prove first that the physics are working close enough to justify the ballista results to be equal to fighting against mobs.

[bside]

I've done many Sidewinder on near dead mobs out of curiosity of that. No way a mob that I know would die from 200 damage would be taking a single hit from a sidewinder for 1k+ damage. I've seen the obvious difference because Barrage does stop after mob has taken the damage amount (It's why the weak mobs around the starting town will only take around 300-400 damage from a barrage but still takes 2k+ from a sidewinder.

Sidewinder isn't a multi-hit WS. It simply deals quadruple damage, like Viper Bite does double damage, while they appear to be multi-hit. Barrage works much in a way multi-hit WS' do, so you're right, it stops when the mob dies, but those WS' that deal double/triple/quadruple damage simply does one damage. This is precisely why Viper Bite works so well w/ SATA; 1 double hit gets the advantage of SATA, instead of 1 of 2 being SATA and another being normal.

EDIT: Just so people won't be mislead, "double damage," or of any other multiplier, does NOT mean the final damage output is doubled. For the case of Viper Bite, it's your ATK that's increased when using it. Therefore, it's effective against those mobs w/ high DEF, rather than those too weak ones. On the other hand, it's the damage multiplier for Sidewinder/Slugshot.


Nevertheless, like I said above, whether you believe it or not is your choice. And if you say whatever the results Studio Gobli posts are suspicious and not trustworthy, I do honor that.