Re-envisioning NIN

[Mouser]

Posit: NIN, as a tank is inherrently unbalanced. For most purposes, the ability to completely avoid both physical and magical damage can not be balanced compared to another tank that is based on reducing damage. This deprecates the damage reduction tank as well as reduces the importance of healers. There is only one effective damage negation tank for most levels, the NIN, though the WAR/NIN can be effective at level 74. The initial balance to NIN, limited number of slots to carry tools, has been mostly reduced thanks to added inventory slot quests and tool-bags and the cost of the tools is not a significant impediment at higher levels.

Recommendation: Change NIN from a tank job to a DD/backup tank pet job. This must be done in such a way that the substantial investment in gear that NINs have made is not invalidated, though inevitably some dislocations would occur. The proposed changes are as follows:
Utsusemi: Rather than creating shadows that absorb hits, it creates a shadow duplicate of the NIN, which would look like a Fomor version of the NIN. It would function like a mime, exactly mimicking the NIN's actions, including job abilities, job traits, spells, and attacks, but not weaponskills. Rather than use the NINs weapon skills though, it would use the NIN's Ninjitsu skill as its weapon skill . It's Ninjitsu skill would be equal to the NINs. At the Ichi level, it's characteristics and base damage would be 20% of the NINs, as would its HP and MP. At the Ni level, they would be 33%. For monsters with San, it would be 50%. The shadow's hate would be tracked as for any pet. However, if the NIN is attacked directly (by weapon or non-AOE spell), the shadow has a chance of being targetted instead. The recast for Ichi and NI would be changed to 10:00 minutes each with a duration of 20:00 minutes. As normal, the NIN could only have one pet at a time. The stack size for Utsusemi tools would be reduced to 12 and recipe yields adjusted accordingly. If used by a /NIN, the shadow's stats would be proportional to the ratio of the NIN level to the main level (i.e. 50% if a fully leveled sub) and the chance of absorbing a hit would be likewise proportionally reduced.
New Enmity-based Job Ability: NIN's would gain a new level 35 job ability called Distract with a 5:00 recast. When used, it would, based on the NINs current rank on the enmity list and the amount of +Enmity the NIN had, force the monster to attack the NIN for a certain amount of time (10-15 seconds typically). It would also reduce all party members' enmity rank by a small amount, enhanced by any +enmity the NIN had.
New 2hr Ability: The NIN's 2hr would be replaced by a new one called Shadow Blade (in Japanese of course). The NIN's next normal attack would work like a Ranger's Barrage, with a maximum of 10 hits (and like Barrage, ending as soon as an attack missed). Double Attack could process as well. If the NIN had a Shadow up, it would use Shadow Blade as well.
Shurikens: The yield on Shurikens would be increased so that the recipes would yield 99 on a normal success. HQ1 would produce 33 +1 Shurikens, HQ2 would produce 66 +1 shurikens.Other Tanks: With the NIN moved to a DD/back-up tank role, other tanking jobs would need to be strengthened to avoid simply making the tank role a PLD monopoly instead.
Monk: Change Guard to check for skill-up whenever the MNK is hit, not when Guard actually processes. Give MNK a level 40 job ability called Chi Fist (3:00 recast, 0:30 duration) that adds a MND-based added-effect healing effect to its unarmed attacks that automatically processed on each hit. Chi Fist would heal an amount equal to the MNK's MND divided by 5 per hit. It would not cause extra damage to the target and would work even if facing undead.
Warrior: Give WAR a new level 40 Job Trait called Stagger. It would only work with 2-handed weapons. Each time the WAR hit, the enemy's next attack would suffer a delay penalty equal to 10% of the WAR's weapon delay, but would only process if the WAR was at the top of the enmity list.
Samauri: Give SAM a new level 40 Job Trait called Blinding Blade. Each time the SAM hit, the enemy's next attack would suffer an ACC down equal to the 20% of the SAM's skill with their current weapon. It would only process if the SAM was at the top of the enmity list and the mob was facing the SAM.
Miscellaneous Changes: Parry and Shield would check for skill-up whenever the character is hit. To avoid stepping on DRKs' 2hr, their 2hr would be altered to instead act as Souleater, with +50% effectivenes, and with no self inflicted damage. Either new gear would be added or existing gear altered to give MNK and SAM access to a wider selection of tanking gear at all levels.Commentary: I fully expect 99.9% of all NINs to hate this proposal. It's natural to not want to lose or share a space as one of the most valuable jobs in the game, but I think there is a real problem in game balance that can't be fixed simply by strengthening the other potential tank jobs and keeping NIN the same. I've tried to include enough carrots to offset the pain of the massive nerf-bat, but it's impossible to do so fully. There is of course no chance of this ever being implemented. The howling that would result would make the protests by RNGs and BSTs look mild by comparison, but I think it's important to occasionally examine the imbalances in the game.

[neighbortaru]

i'm sorry, but the only thing I can say about this is :rolleyes:

[Omni]

let me whip out my SE-lead_developer direct line contact right now...
:rolleyes:

only thing i like is the x99 on shuriken synths.
and its not because i am a ninja.

as thought out and fun as it might have been to type all that up, there still needs to be a lot of thinking to be done. you cannot give other jobs tanking abilities and think they wont be abused either. what if you have a pt with multiple tanking jobs AND those same jobs can dd as well?

nerfing isnt as easy or as fun as it seems.

[Raydeus]

I really wish people stopped trying to solve everything by nerfing NINs and Utsusemi, it seems that's the only thing people can't think of. I'm leveling PLD and yet seeing NINs getting nerfed is the last thing I want to see.

Seriously, what's wrong with people and their "nerf everyone who isn't me" attitude.

[raidenn]

Not bad. I think SE really thought SAM had a potential to be the next tanking job since some of the AF gear has some enmity stats on them. Might be a good idea if they had some extensive parry skills.

[Zamphire]

Great idea. I wish I could find something ass holeish to say, but it's really a good idea. Though I doubt it'll ever happen, and I'd really hate to see shadows go, they are awsome for soloing.

[Lmnop]

Unfortunately, I've come to quite like NIN as a tank. I think if S-E had it to do all over, they'd make it a tank from the start with a bigger focus on the elemental enfeebles and less on their Dual Wield DD potential. Anywho, I think they'd do it right but where it is, and with their vehement belief in not directly nerfing jobs (they'll never lower a job's stat growth or skill caps, they can only add and change game mechanics themselves to hinder exploited jobs), we're stuck with NINs as they are. I think they're moving in the right direction to fix the situation (vastly improving PLD's DD potential through both new traits as well as gear such as Homam). With that said...

... I don't think even 2 complete tank jobs is enough. Unfortunately, War/nin is just a slightly different flavor of Nin/war, so they'll never embrace it as a complete tank job. Additionally, they realize the damage monster they've created in Warrior. As of a year ago, WARs could boast the greatest access to Haste gear as well as the most +enmity of any job. Both of those claims are now quite shakey, and they continue to push WAR more and more into a DD position (or maybe the players do it? or maybe S-E does it because they see that that's what the players want?). I don't think they'd ever add Chi Fist to mnk or anything like it, but it'd definately be nice if they made it so a monk geared right would Guard at least 60% of the attacks that aren't countered. I also think it'd be interesting if they gave monks a job trait that increased the amount healed by any hp-recovering effect so that Pollen or Cure would heal them of 5% more or something.

I really like your idea for Stagger o.o (though they'd have to nerf Warrior before they ever added it).

[Mouser]

I'm neither a NIN, a PLD or a healer, so this wouldn't benefit me in any way. I realize it wouldn't be simple, and would require testing to get the balance right, if in some far off FFXXXIII-online it was implemented. I certainly don't mean it as a challenge to NINs (which is why I didn't post it in the NIN thread myself; I don't believe in going into someone's house and arguing with them). It'd just be nice when putting together a party to not have people feel they *need* a NIN or /NIN, and I don't see any way to accomplish while keeping NIN the same, and it's much easier to change NIN a bit than overhaul three other jobs.

[Drakien]

I really wish people stopped trying to solve everything by nerfing NINs and Utsusemi, it seems that's the only thing people can't think of. I'm leveling PLD and yet seeing NINs getting nerfed is the last thing I want to see.

Seriously, what's wrong with people and their "nerf everyone who isn't me" attitude.

/clap

[Omni]

Not bad. I think SE really thought SAM had a potential to be the next tanking job since some of the AF gear has some enmity stats on them. Might be a good idea if they had some extensive parry skills.

NO

SE did not think that.
They explicitly said that sam is and never was to tank.

Really, you cannot look at AF and try to derive the uses out of it. AF is mainly symbolic of the job. AF2, AF+1 are better representations of what SE thinks the job should do, but NOT AF.

[neighbortaru]

Not bad. I think SE really thought SAM had a potential to be the next tanking job since some of the AF gear has some enmity stats on them. Might be a good idea if they had some extensive parry skills.actually, it was brought up in the Fan Festival that SE never ever thought SAM to be a tanking job.

Edit:
doh! beaten to the punch by Omni :o

[Gentoo]

I fully expect 99.9% of all NINs to hate this proposal. It's natural to not want to lose or share a space as one of the most valuable jobs in the game, but I think there is a real problem in game balance that can't be fixed simply by strengthening the other potential tank jobs and keeping NIN the same.
I completely agree with this sentiment -- strengthening other jobs to try and balance them with NIN seems a backward approach.

Your Samurai and Monk ideas I find really pleasing to twirl around in my mind, but I'm not so enthralled with new Ninja description. Although it was a accident, I like the notion of a Ninja tanks.

I believe the imbalance is that Ninjas, unlike most other jobs, don't have to make concessions on offensive gear/food versus defensive accouterments. Remove Utsusemi's ability negate an attack 100% of the time [operating more along the lines of it's magical counterpart], and I think you balance out Ninja with everything else.

[neighbortaru]

I'm neither a NIN, a PLD or a healer, so this wouldn't benefit me in any way. I realize it wouldn't be simple, and would require testing to get the balance right, if in some far off FFXXXIII-online it was implemented. I certainly don't mean it as a challenge to NINs (which is why I didn't post it in the NIN thread myself; I don't believe in going into someone's house and arguing with them). It'd just be nice when putting together a party to not have people feel they *need* a NIN or /NIN, and I don't see any way to accomplish while keeping NIN the same, and it's much easier to change NIN a bit than overhaul three other jobs.
well, parties don't *need* a RDM or BRD either... it just makes life so much freaking easier. same with NIN.

it's not the job that's the problem, it's the player base (zomg, where have we heard that before).

[Mouser]

well, parties don't *need* a RDM or BRD either... it just makes life so much freaking easier. same with NIN.

it's not the job that's the problem, it's the player base (zomg, where have we heard that before).

I'm not entirely sure I can agree with that. If one job is clearly better in a fairly objective way than other jobs at a particular party role, people will seek it out. SE has addressed the perceived need for a refresher with recent changes to widen the number of options (the COR job, PLD Auto-refresh, Absorb-TP for DRK so they can heal MP between pulls, Auto- Refresh as an option for BLU).

They've attempted to strengthen PLD, which is a start to evening the tanking options, but even so there's a fundamental problem in trying to balance PLD, which takes damage and can't gear for offense while tanking, and NIN, which can negate damage from any source and gear for offense. I'm not certain that there is a way to adjust player attitudes since, to a large part, they are actually based on observable evidence, not merely faddish group-think.

[Karinya]

... I don't think even 2 complete tank jobs is enough.
Enough for what? It's more than enough for there to be a bunch of tanks looking for parties and not finding them. (Of course, all the ones not finding parties are paladins. Coincidence? Yeah, right.)
Unfortunately, War/nin is just a slightly different flavor of Nin/war, so they'll never embrace it as a complete tank job. Additionally, they realize the damage monster they've created in Warrior.
WAR was always intended to be a damage monster if you geared for damage, and a good tank if you geared for defense/enmity. The problem with WAR/NIN is that it has both at once: you can gear for damage and still be 90% invulnerable (and of course doing that much damage gives you a ton of hate).
You can't really bring everyone up to the level of a WAR/NIN without destroying anything remotely resembling challenge in the game. I know how unpopular nerfs are, but "just buff everyone else" only works for so long until you realize that you can solo ITs now. (Actually, some jobs *can* solo ITs now. Mostly if they sub NIN.)
To create real balance in tanking, Utsusemi needs to be weakened *just enough* that a mainjob ninja with an evasion/parry setup can still tank with it, but not every monkey with /NIN can be invulnerable even while wearing a hauby and snipers etc. It's a delicate line (and depends on the mob as much as on the player and gear). But until blink tanks need to make the kind of offense vs. defense tradeoffs that iron tanks do, where trying to tank in offensive gear will make you a severe burden on the healer or a corpse, they'll still be preferred for exp/merit because they're a DD and a tank at the same time - it's like having a 7 member party without the exp loss of *actually* having a 7 member party.
Either that, or get rid of blink tanking entirely and let other job combinations like WAR/MNK and MNK/WAR and maybe even SAM/WAR take up tanking, with some real defense, Counter, etc. But they'll never do that at this point.

[Ziero]

Honestly the best idea I've heard so far to balance Nin tanking is to make Utsu a non-100% dmg blocker. Instead you make it a 'chance' to block/evade dmg based on your current shadow count. But in the end that would only do so much, so I figure adding two new abilities for Pld would even the playing field.

One ability would be a spell, that when in effect, would turn all dmg blocked with a shield to 0. In essance bringing back the older shield blocking system where no dmg was recieved when blocked with a shield. And the second idea would be a short recast (about 2 minutes) JA that would negate any dmg dealt from the next offensive spell cast on the target, and turn it into MP gained. Basically it would be Celes' Runic ability from FFXI, which would fit perfectly on Pld as it helps with two of Pld's glaring problems. Those being MP dependancy and the total inability to negate magic damage, two things nin does not have to worry about.

Those three changes would drastically change the playing field for tanks, without causing major overhauls to the way the game is played.

[Omni]

I wouldnt say nin doesnt have to worry about magic damage. At higher levels, almost all mobs have some sort of multi-hit/aoe ablity.

I think the issues with pld being mp dependant have been more than addressed. With SE's move to make their new expansion the bulk-head of all activities now, giving PLD auto-refresh and the choice of picking up Sanction refresh, gives pld an EASY 5mp per tick with your very basic 1 refresher PT. Add another refresher and the pld has more hp than he knows what to do with. Up to 8-9MP per tick with a 2 refresher PT.

Making the point that PLD are tied to their mp is like saying nin is tied to their utsu-timers. It's like, duh... its the job. what do you expect? Give pld the ability to cure themselves w/o mp? I've been able to PT with several pld lately in caedarva mire and frankly, they do very well. Actually, when fighting Imps, they do better than nin. with amensia, a nin has no way to generate hate. Pld can atleast flash the mob to gain hate, something that is very important to keep those high chains going.

Pld arent geared for offense. That's the whole thing. They are defensive. With that, you forgo offensive capabilties. However, you have several hate generating abilities, spells and gear. You have to understand, nin generate hate through dmg. Like I mentioned earlier, put a nin against a imp and see how hate gets bounced around so easily w/o provoke. Pld have no trouble at all even with hit with anemsia. Thats what they excel at. I just keep getting the feeling that people want to be able to drop big numbers on ANY job they play. I'm sure if you gave swift blade a dmg increase and youll have so many happy pld in haubies spamming swift blade. Remember what job you are playing. You are a defensive tank w/ many great hate generating skills. Not a drk that can take punishment.

I do agree with kariyna on changing utsu so that nin mains can still tank with an adjustment in parry skillups/procs and limiting how /nin uses utsu. This would help in getting the random player the ability to run around carefree with /nin.

The playing field is fine. Both tanks perform well, you just need people to know how to accomadate them. Changing player mentality is still the main factor imo.

[Ziero]

Well a decently geared DD oriented Pld can still do great dmg and with nin sub, hold hate and mitigate Dmg as well. The problem isn't about nin persay, it's about Utsu. As stated before, any job that subs nin gains a near invulnerability. And yes, many mobs have devastating multi hit WS and AoEs, but many of them can be absorbed by shadows. And just as many mobs have powerful single hit spells and abilities that can be completely negated by shadows, where a traditional Pld/War would take it right in the face. A nin never has to worry about AMs because they can be absorbed by shadows. But a Pld would take the full brunt of the attack.

Now I think both jobs are great jobs, infact I prefer the average Pld tank to the average Nin tank for many things. But there are some clear advantages to nins over Plds. Not everything will take place in the ToAU regions and not everything will have one or two refreshers, meaning that a Pld's limited MP Pool will start to show. Recast timers don't cause downtime, but limited MP does. And though being the *best* hate holder in game, being a hate holder who does great Dmg to kill the mob faster while taking *no* dmg is easily a superior choice.

As said before, yes it is the plater mentality that is the cause of the imbalance, that can not be changed without some alterations to the way the two tanks work. Utsuemi is an *extremely* powerful tanking tool, and there is no way around that fact.

[Macht]

The ideas here for NIN and other jobs I don't see being good at all.

The new idea for NIN is still giving them their utsusemi and as I interpret actually makes some stuff about utsusemi to overpowered. Making the shadows to be something like a hate beacon, what stops a THF then from SATA onto this hate beacon and making it a sole disposable target?

The other problem is once you get into having an actual NPC like copy with HP of it's own adjusting it becomes a pain. Around when you first get to use Utsusemi: Ichi a Hume or Mithra player going with that would have a shadow of about 20-30 HP, a Elvaan would have one of maybe 40 HP, a Galka of about probably 60 HP, and a Tarutaru likely with 10-20 HP.

This gives to much superiority of the job by it's race, a Galka and Elvaan would have very powerful Utsusemi able to take anywere from 1-300+ hits depending on what they fight. Even with mobs of VT or IT to them even at just 20% a Galka or Elvaan Utsusemi: Ichi would be capable of taking approx. 12 hits and Ni taking approx. 20 hits.

Yet a Mithra or Hume would only get about 9 hits with Ichi and 15 with Ni. Then of course a Tarutaru probably be lucky to get even 7 hits with Ichi and 11 with Ni. Then of course against the stronger bosses this HP stats and none of the NINs Utsusemi would not survive even 1 hit from the really strong mobs.

Also the Distract ability is too strong, hate spike + party hate reduction. Not only are your reducing the parties hate but your spike is intended to be temporary which means in essence yours as well gets reduced, way to powerful and starts making /NIN to be the only choice for any DD (Create a distract cycle with the Tank using Provoke in the end and you effectively create something that can wedge a huge gapping hole in hate, becoming even more profound with a THF SATA to the tank).

Then the 2hr is way to sickenly powerful especially when used in combination with a hate reduction cycle from distract. The ideas effectively takes NIN out of being a Tank and makes them a way to powerful DD with way to strong abilities as a Sub. I mean a shadow from a RNG/NIN doing even 20% damage of that of a RNG is encroaching on the RNG/WAR field.

Then you are stealing out of DRKs by making WAR stronger with 2-handed weapons through stagger. Again stealing out of DRKs with Chi Fist which is almost a resemblance of Blood Weapon, yet is stronger because it's effect isn't impeaded by fighting Undead and can be used far more frequently.

The SAM one I'm not certain about I play it's scenario over and over in my head, at the current time I can't find something it's impeading on. Perhaps maybe it makes them to strong as being almost like free flash attacks, it would give a reason for SAM to do stick with SAM/WAR or even SAM/NIN using distract.

The change to Shield and Parry makes no sence, why should it skill up if you were completly in-effective in shielding or parrying. The new 2hr for DRK seems like you are weakening them, their 2hr is useful for countering Souleater's negative effects. It almost like promoting some MNK/DRK combination to use Chi Fist + Souleater type thing. Not to also mention this takes away strength to lower levels that seems to be creating gap were they'd have to crawl their way to around lv. 40 to be effective in exping which is counter productive.

If anything to be done to NIN, I'd be more intrested in seeing the afformentioned chance variable in Utsusemi and have NIN branch a new Chakra system for them. Something along accessing the 8 points of chakra as well as their downfalls, can easily associate the 8 points to elements as well so it already has a decent start of relating to the games current function.

Though sadly the ideas I do have for it is probably well beyond current technology to effectively accomplish. At least though in it's design it would give them more foot hold to being a resonable tank or resonable DD depending how they trained their chakra. It would also complete the NIN to a more robust mythical or spiritual aspect of NINs. Ninjutsu in RL uses their style of forms in part as to focus their chakra. It isn't just something from anime like Naruto. Just as Shaolin Monks speak of the spiritual power within they associate as Chi, Ninja's had something similar that they referrenced as Chakra.

[Omni]

1) If you have to worry about AM going off on your pld from an XP mob, I think there are other worries you should be addressing than the fact that pld take magic dmg directly.

2) There are many attacks utsu does not absorb. It's pretty even I think. Especially now.

3) Yes, you may not be in the new zones or have 2 refresher. But, if you do not have 1 refresher in your pt then there is something wrong not just with your pld. So now why not let us try to change the reliance on refreshers? The need to have 1 refresher in a pt is the true cause of pld's mp woes isnt it? Why not make all native mp using jobs mp self sufficient? Recast timers do cause down time. Because recast timers get nins killed. I get criticalled more often than anything when my shadows go down. After that, I have a good 3-4 hits before I'm eating dirt.

4) Utsu is powerful. Im an not denying that and I dont think anyone is. I just dont think that is the problem -causing- this. It's just one of the reasons people have. You take utsu away from the tanking realm and give (for instance) the said abilities in the OP and you'll inevitably find players developing a way to exploit those new abilities. If SE wants pld to be the only tank available, they will make it so. I think the most fair change that should take place would be to affect subbing nin.

[raidenn]

I hope they have more than just a paladin for a tanking class. During the early days of FFXI, there were very few Ninjas and only Paladin was the tanker, no one wanted to join a party unless there was a Paladin. There were White Mages who wont join unless you have a Paladin. It was very common when a party would disband as soon as the Paladin insists on leaving after he levels.

[Macht]

1) If you have to worry about AM going off on your pld from an XP mob, I think there are other worries you should be addressing than the fact that pld take magic dmg directly.
2) There are many attacks utsu does not absorb. It's pretty even I think. Especially now.
3) Yes, you may not be in the new zones or have 2 refresher. But, if you do not have 1 refresher in your pt then there is something wrong not just with your pld. So now why not let us try to change the reliance on refreshers? The need to have 1 refresher in a pt is the true cause of pld's mp woes isnt it? Why not make all native mp using jobs mp self sufficient? Recast timers do cause down time. Because recast timers get nins killed. I get criticalled more often than anything when my shadows go down. After that, I have a good 3-4 hits before I'm eating dirt.
4) Utsu is powerful. Im an not denying that and I dont think anyone is. I just dont think that is the problem -causing- this. It's just one of the reasons people have. You take utsu away from the tanking realm and give (for instance) the said abilities in the OP and you'll inevitably find players developing a way to exploit those new abilities. If SE wants pld to be the only tank available, they will make it so. I think the most fair change that should take place would be to affect subbing nin.

Agreed, as I stated in another thread with all it's talk of Utsusemi and NIN.

I hope they have more than just a paladin for a tanking class. During the early days of FFXI, there were very few Ninjas and only Paladin was the tanker, no one wanted to join a party unless there was a Paladin. There were White Mages who wont join unless you have a Paladin. It was very common when a party would disband as soon as the Paladin insists on leaving after he levels.

In the Older times before lv. 50 cap was raised the Tanks were WAR and MNKs. Progressed to PLD, WAR, and MNKs, then at one point became PLDs and WARs, then PLDs and NINs, now even if NIN isn't the ideal people start trying to force a NIN to work in that situation.

[Aeni]

In the Older times before lv. 50 cap was raised the Tanks were WAR and MNKs. Progressed to PLD, WAR, and MNKs, then at one point became PLDs and WARs, then PLDs and NINs, now even if NIN isn't the ideal people start trying to force a NIN to work in that situation.

Yes, this is what I was discussing about in the thread currently debated under the PLD forum.

The game has evolved, yes, but right now it's not for the best. In fact, it is degrading. Slowly at first, but as enough player base gets experienced in the game, it will devolve repidly. The problems that were generated DIRECTLY as a result of RoZ is only being exacerbated through CoP and now ToAU.

Now, without having to rehash the same old arguments, I'd like to point out the major problem.

Omni said that it's not a problem of a job (indirectly saying that therefore there are no problems/should be no problems with the abilities of a job either) but more of player mentality.

Yet, is it not because of the inherent flaws in a system that contributes to the player's mentality? If the abilities or loopholes were not available in the first place, would there even be a need to have such discussions at all? Something to mull over before putting out a definitive reply on the problems at hand.

Right now the way I see it, there's a lot of improvements that can be made into this game. However, we're forgetting that SE also has business obligations to fulfill which may or may not impede on any kind of improvement being made. Some of these may include:


Is it worth changing anything to an already aging game and player population?
If we're putting out a new MMO game just out on the horizon, then why bother?
How would changes impact our ability to maintain and secure the customer base?Unfortunately, changes cannot be made so easily without having repercussions to deal with. The problems have so saturated the player base that it has almost become "normal" and thus worsens the chances of any repairs being made.

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I think making all ninjutsu mana dependant, throwing out the tools sytem and giving NINs a mana bar will solve 99% of the problem. While we're at it, make BRD songs mana dependant as well and give them a mana bar.

[DakAttack]

I really wish people stopped trying to solve everything by nerfing NINs and Utsusemi, it seems that's the only thing people can't think of. I'm leveling PLD and yet seeing NINs getting nerfed is the last thing I want to see.

Seriously, what's wrong with people and their "nerf everyone who isn't me" attitude.

Do you even pay attention? You must be either ignorant or lazy. Nobody cares what job you're leveling on the side, we really don't. There's people who've devoted everything they have and all their money into a tank job that's inferior to a job that was never meant to tank. There's a big difference between to tank jobs when one's pulling in 4-5k an hour and the other 7-8k an hour when it has nothing to do with the rest of the party.

Neither Samurai nor Ninja were meant to be tanks, but anything that subs Ninja can tank because of Utsusemi.

[Zamphire]

How about we just give every job in the game Utsusemi Ichi and Ni. There, no more unbalanced jobs :P

[Macht]

Right now the way I see it, there's a lot of improvements that can be made into this game. However, we're forgetting that SE also has business obligations to fulfill which may or may not impede on any kind of improvement being made. Some of these may include:

Is it worth changing anything to an already aging game and player population?
If we're putting out a new MMO game just out on the horizon, then why bother?
How would changes impact our ability to maintain and secure the customer base?Unfortunately, changes cannot be made so easily without having repercussions to deal with. The problems have so saturated the player base that it has almost become "normal" and thus worsens the chances of any repairs being made.


Buisness wise there are a lot of reasons in MMORPGs to keep an aging one going. Just look back at EQ and EQ2 for this. EQ2 flopped in comparison to EQ however because they kept progressing EQ as well they were able to maintain their playbase with the players just simply returning to EQ as EQ2 flopped. Sustaining and improving an older MMORPG helps keep playerbase retention and gives room for put out more inovative MMORPGs with less of a lash back if it fails.

Allows them to get feedback of what went wrong on the newer MMORPG and make a better one next time. The biggest part to make this successful is being able to retain your playerbase, so advancing a successful MMORPG that's aged is very important.

[Raydeus]

Do you even pay attention? You must be either ignorant or lazy. Nobody cares what job you're leveling on the side, we really don't. There's people who've devoted everything they have and all their money into a tank job that's inferior to a job that was never meant to tank. There's a big difference between to tank jobs when one's pulling in 4-5k an hour and the other 7-8k an hour when it has nothing to do with the rest of the party.

Neither Samurai nor Ninja were meant to be tanks, but anything that subs Ninja can tank because of Utsusemi.

I play PLD because I enjoy playing the job, I enjoy the abilities and the way of tanking, and most of the time I'm too busy having a good time with it to worry about what other jobs can or can't do. If you consider that ignorance or lazyness it doesn't really matter to me. :thumbsup:

Now, if you wanna complain about how inferior PLD is compared to other jobs and that the other kids don't wanna play with you because of it then suit yourself.

When I've felt that PLDs could be better I've spent my time thinking on ways to improve the job rather than ways to change other jobs and bring them "down to my level". But I'm guessing you must be the kind of person who rather take others down with you than actually improving yourself.

[Gentoo]

But I'm guessing you must be the kind of person who rather take others down with you than actually improving yourself.

Since I'm also one of the ones thinking a "nerf" would be a good idea, I guess I'm lumped into that statement.

For some of us, we look at Utsusemi, and see a mistake (it's far too powerful, and takes the balance out of the game).

So, do you fix the mistake, or do you change the entire [virtual] world bit-by-bit (no pun intended) so that mistake works?

[Herrisa]

Orrrrr....

-% damage reduction, -% critical hit rate, PLD only gear

None of that piddly -5% either... I'm talking gear with -20% & -30% stuff. A PLD with -60% damage reduction would be :handsdown.

[LadyPeorth]

Monk: Change Guard to check for skill-up whenever the MNK is hit, not when Guard actually processes. Give MNK a level 40 job ability called Chi Fist (3:00 recast, 0:30 duration) that adds a MND-based added-effect healing effect to its unarmed attacks that automatically processed on each hit. Chi Fist would heal an amount equal to the MNK's MND divided by 5 per hit. It would not cause extra damage to the target and would work even if facing undead.

I'm a Monk and I approve of these changes.

[Raydeus]

For some of us, we look at Utsusemi, and see a mistake (it's far too powerful, and takes the balance out of the game).

So, do you fix the mistake, or do you change the entire [virtual] world bit-by-bit (no pun intended) so that mistake works?

How do I respond to this without writting something that is 3 pages long, I guess I'll go for the short answer.

The only ones who can judge if something is a mistake or not are the Dev team, if Utsusemi was not working as they intended then they would've taken far more decisive actions against it, yet the only two adjustments I can recall are the AoE and the Emnity loss changes (while leaving the level you can use and sub Ni untouched).

Not only that, but they actually said they were pleased with the way players were using the job and actually added more tanking oriented gear for NINs and made tools easier to carry.

So, the way I see they aren't changing the game bit-by-bit to make a mistake work, they are making changes little by little so the game goes where they want it to go. For instance instead of getting rid of Utsusemi they are working on PLD to bring it to a higher lvl of performance, and many other changes like that.

If players like or don't like those changes then it's up to them (the players) to judge if the job is fun to play or not, and make the decision to keep playing the job because they enjoy it or stop playing because they don't. Also making sugestions about how to improve the job you play is a good idea.

But like I said, I focus on wether I enjoy playing a job or not, not on what other jobs can or can't do. And going as far as to actually wanting a complete remake of a job just because I don't like it (or feel threaten by it) would be going too far out of my way to mess with other people's job and fun.



Bah I still wrote way too much. :wasted:

[DakAttack]

No offense, but you don't sound like an educated consumer.

[Aeni]

The only ones who can judge if something is a mistake or not are the Dev team, if Utsusemi was not working as they intended then they would've taken far more decisive actions against it, yet the only two adjustments I can recall are the AoE and the Emnity loss changes (while leaving the level you can use and sub Ni untouched).

Or how about this scenario:


Company A develops a product, which we call G. G was working fine, until Company A decides to enhance their product G by adding a novelty to it. Let's call this Addition Z.

In the short term, many people are enjoying Addtion Z to their already existing G. With some nice reviews and a good marketing campaign, G reaches out to more and more customers. With more and more of G being sold, Company A starts to receive more and more concerns from existing customers.

Apparently, it was discovered that Addition Z has some how changed the mechanics in how G works. All of a sudden, where G was performing admirably in certain areas, customers are now noticing that those areas are now performing inadequately. However, other areas were vastly improved and in fact, many new customers are fully enjoying the performance so much that Company A pushes on forward in their plans to eventually add Addition Y and Addition W to take advantage of this new found performance.

However, with each Addition being added, the performance in some other areas start to worsen and gradually erode at the overall effectiveness of product G. Soon, G is slowly starting to be talked about as being "broken" Company A tries what it does to remediate the problems by trying to redirect consumers attention to the strengths and novelty of the newly released Addition W. Marketing and support is entirely focused on this.


===========


In the real world, if a product was found to be defective or not performing as well as it should, people stop buying said product. However, with MMO games, it isn't entirely easy and it's made complicated by a small but important factor which most people overlook. It's called "Investment of time."

[Raitox]

PLD's sub NIN. In fact, everyone sub NIN. Problem solved, no?

[Raydeus]

No offense, but you don't sound like an educated consumer.

If you are talking about me all I can say is I trust in SE and their Dev team's judgement way more (around 10 million times to 1 actually) to make decisions about the game than I would ever trust you.

But like I said your opinion about me doesn't really matter, specially since I'm aware that I'm playing the game to have a good time, and I'll keep playing for as long as it remains being fun and interesting.

If I was as unhappy about my job (and no other jobs cought my attention) as you seem to be I would've moved on long ago. After all, that's the best way to make an stand as a consumer isn't it? Just stop using the product and taking your money with you is the best way to show you are not a satisfied costumer.


Edit>

In the real world, if a product was found to be defective or not performing as well as it should, people stop buying said product. However, with MMO games, it isn't entirely easy and it's made complicated by a small but important factor which most people overlook. It's called "Investment of time."

I would agree, but I guess my perspective is different than most players, as I don't think about it as an investment of time. To me the time I spent playing I did it because it was fun, I got what I payed for while developing my character in terms of it being a fun activity. Kinda like when you watch a movie, the act of watching the movie is what you payed for, the memories you get from it count as well.

But after the movie is over you don't get anything besides the torned ticket.

Video games are the same, specially games like this one that you know will end one day and your character's info will be deleted because the service stops or you quit the game.

It's not like you are gonna get a certificate that validates you as a "Licensed RDM" or whatever job you took to 75 or spent the most time with.

So really if you play thinking that you are investing time then you need to start thinking about what you are gonna do after the game is over or you might suffer an emotional break down if your case is too extreme (I'm kidding eh? :P).

But yeah I've been playing for more than two years now, and although it would be weird if my character got deleted tomorrow I would never think I lost my investment or anything like that. Since I already got what I was looking for.

And that is simply having a good time.

PS> Stop making me write so much!

[seq]

looks like you are trying to make the available tanks even LESS Mouser...
Recommendation: Change NIN from a tank job to a DD/backup tank pet job. This must be done in such a way that the substantial investment in gear that NINs have made is not invalidated, though inevitably some dislocations would occur. The proposed changes are as follows:
NO THANKS, as i said we need more tanks not more DDs.

Monk: Change Guard to check for skill-up whenever the MNK is hit, not when Guard actually processes. Give MNK a level 40 job ability called Chi Fist (3:00 recast, 0:30 duration) that adds a MND-based added-effect healing effect to its unarmed attacks that automatically processed on each hit. Chi Fist would heal an amount equal to the MNK's MND divided by 5 per hit. It would not cause extra damage to the target and would work even if facing undead.
sounds like a mini-bloodweapon.

all that could *fix* NIN is by making the NIN suffer an Attack-down when he have shadows up, something like 25% per shadow. i'm sick of NINs beeing able to Tank and DD at the same time (Blade:Jin 600-1K .... doesn't sound like a tank for me but it is a tank that deals ALOT of DMG).

note: i doubt any changes like what you said can happen, because NIN is played by ppl now. they played it the way it is not expecting any major update that'll change the job.

[Macht]

No one is making you write so much, it's of your own will you do so. The desire to explain in detail to hopefully give the rest better understanding of your viewpoint.

Now, as the thread about what type of MMORPG would you make if you could links too. One of the strongest things it points to is that old creations and such must constantly be checked against players and current gameplay. So it has to be constantly checked for fairness.

FFXI's goal is provide many job combinations and promote a group of them that best fit but others should fit ok as well. There's something wrong there when nearly every DD job has /NIN and nothing else, that's not promoting a group of combinations to use. That is a dead obvious and extreemly apparent balancing issue needing to be fixed.

[seq]

PLD's sub NIN. In fact, everyone sub NIN. Problem solved, no?
no, the problem isn't PLD tanking well or not.... it's:
PLD tanking well, but dealing no noticable DMG.
NIN tanking very well, and dealing DMG almost like any other melee in the party.

got it?

/cheer Aeni

[BurningPanther]

Sounds to me like S-E's initial answer was the most spot on. A while back, they altered shadows to lose hate when damage was absorbed. If Square really wanted to negate NIN's tanking abilities, then they'd make it so shadows reset hate every time damage was absorbed, as well as make the enmity gained from Ninjutsus minimal. They could further remove the enmity gaining attributes of various NIN compatible armors. Really, this wouldn't gimp the shadows concept, just make it impossible to keep hate without the aid of Provoke.

But none of that is the point, is it? The point is, S-E has stopped trying to find ways to bring tanking back to PLD. The developers announced at some point that they were no longer interested in forcing people to adhere to the original vision; they've decided to let people play how they like(i.e: specialized burn parties). Bearing this ideal of empowerment in mind, the path to balancing of tank roles lies in the empowerment of PLD rather than the nerfing of NIN. S-E made a big leap with the introduction of Auto-Refresh for PLD. Defensive boosts, natural Magical Defense traits, natural resistance traits to various status effects(and Provoke for PLD), these things will be what brings PLD back to the forefront: the ability to survive attacks better.

[Macht]

Sounds to me like S-E's initial answer was the most spot on. A while back, they altered shadows to lose hate when damage was absorbed. If Square really wanted to negate NIN's tanking abilities, then they'd make it so shadows reset hate every time damage was absorbed, as well as make the enmity gained from Ninjutsus minimal. They could further remove the enmity gaining attributes of various NIN compatible armors. Really, this wouldn't gimp the shadows concept, just make it impossible to keep hate without the aid of Provoke.
But none of that is the point, is it? The point is, S-E has stopped trying to find ways to bring tanking back to PLD. The developers announced at some point that they were no longer interested in forcing people to adhere to the original vision; they've decided to let people play how they like(i.e: specialized burn parties). Bearing this ideal of empowerment in mind, the path to balancing of tank roles lies in the empowerment of PLD rather than the nerfing of NIN. S-E made a big leap with the introduction of Auto-Refresh for PLD. Defensive boosts, natural Magical Defense traits, natural resistans traits to various status effects(and Provoke for PLD), these things will be what brings PLD back to the forefront: the ability to survive attacks better.

Good and fine with NIN as main. To many issues with it though when NIN is sub. Yes it's apparent they changed NINs focus to be another Tank, however it's tanking abilities is too strong when almost all DDs are using it or being pushed to having to use it.

[tdh]

I don't so much think such a drastic change should be made, however it was an excellent post! Lot of time and though put into it, and has spawned ~some~ intelligent responses.

I won't deny that some changes really are in order, but I can't really think of a way to impliment some sort of change, and not completely piss off everybody. I mean RNGs are still complaining about their "update." (Despite my opinion that they needed to be knocked down a peg or two.) That was one job, and a lot of people. How many people out there would pitch a bitch if /NIN was effectively destroyed? Keeping Duel Wield I hope, but their addiction to Shadows would cause quite an uproar.

This also would require us to address the lack of tanking jobs. WAR has taken a huge shift towards DD in the past two years. Going from a job that was doomed to sub job-dom for so long, became a huge DD option. Now we want to regear WAR to a tank again? Let's couple E Rated Evasion with a Hauby and a set of Woodsmans ring to guarantee WAR takes EVERY hit on the chin. They would have to rely on their DD to hold hate, and there would be no DW any more. Long delay two-handed weapon, all the while evading nothing.

MNK ~can~ tank, but as a Mage, I wish they wouldn't past Lv.20. Bath robes may be nice and comfy, not to mention they look pretty sweet on MNKs, but they're not very good for taking a Sickle Slash. The suggestion for the new MNK ability of Chi Fists sounds like fun, but we're taking a "squishy" job, and giving them a way to regain some HP once their ability is up. This doesn't help the mages who dropping MP at alarming rates to keep the poor MNK alive. They'd also have to adjust Guard to help MNK tank. (Some of you may wish they adjusted Guard anyway, but they would have to if they expected MNK to step up.)

Somebody made a comment about how PLDs are always spending so much time LFG, and adding another tanking job would just extended their time seeking. From my stand point, tanks are as hard to find as main healers are. In the late 60's in on my way to Lv.75, the SMN I staticed with and I had fits trying to find a tank. Refresher, and Main healer already on board, you would think we'd be golden. Many a night we just had to pray a party would take both of us, or just give it up and go do something else. I've had problems in the 40's finding a tank as well. (I guess it could just be me, but every tank I do find, seems appreciate my work.)

But I feel we need more tanking jobs. We currently have two who are odds. Well, more like one job feeling like the games step-child, and hating on the other. Either way, maybe a 3rd tank could help even things out a bit. We now have 3 Refreshers, and things appear to be working out just fine. I know I had my reservations about having to compete with another job for my party spot, but it seems to have worked out. Of course it could completely backfire and suddenly PLD gets no invites, but who knows?

[Lmnop]

I'm truely sorry everyone ; ; I ended up only skimming the last half of page 2 and all of 3. I'll read it more thoroughly when I have time.

In short: Ditto what Omni said. Pretty much everything he said, I agree with. He's a Ninja that understands PLDs, 'nuff said.

A few details of my very own opinion: I never want to see Utsusemi reduced to anything under a 95% chance of success. (I'll touch on that number in a minute) I guess my argument is prolly pretty weak, but I just think that if you make it chance, that Ninja tanking would be more like luck-tanking than blink-tanking. As is, tanking pre-Ni is "fun" enough when "good tanking" consists of how many times/fight you were lucky enough to parry/evade and how often Paralyze went off (anyone who's leveled NIN knows what I'm talking about when I say not evading a single hit is enough to make it so you can't chain your next blink). I say 95% because I wouldn't mind if any time a critical hit would process, it'd instead let the hit go through but not be critical (though maybe it would roll again to see if that hit was then critical). The effect would be something close to 95%.

When I said "what a damage monster WAR is" I kinda meant the whole War/nin package. As is, it's a DD with too good of damage mitigation, but it falls short in the tank department (it can work, but work is a word that most players don't apply to this game). It's true that PLDs seek much longer than NINs, but it's still true that tanks are hard to come by. I always like more options. Though if I designed the game, I woulda made every Melee DD a bit of a tank and made the emphasis of EXP fighting 3 mobs at a time that travel in a party (like Fomors).

Stuff

[Clever Ninja]

The problem is this; yes, NIN is probably abit better than PLD in terms of the method of tanking. However, we have to find a DECENT approach to this that can still keep NIN's as tanks, because if we strip their tanking ability, we'll have even LESS tanks than we do now, which is already a problem on some servers. One idea I liked was the addition of a mana bar to NIN's.

My idea expanded on that is for a small mana cost, NIN's can infuse a
blank tool with an ability like Utsusemi and then use it, giving the desired effect. This not only will put a limit on the endless tanking that NIN's can do as long as they have Shihei, and also make it easier to carry tools around in general, but also allow more freedom with the subbing of jobs like BLM(or RDM >_>)sub post 40, since it'll give more mana plus more damage on the elemental wheel, providing sufficient hate to hold aggro. I've seen NIN/BLM tank right now in the 40's and low 50's with expensive equipment, but with a change like this it'd be cheaper.

But we can't just go off and take away Utsusemi at this point; we can change the way it works to make it not as overpowered, but taking it away completely is a no-no.

[Grizzlebeard]

Commentary: I fully expect 99.9% of all NINs to hate this proposal. It's natural to not want to lose or share a space as one of the most valuable jobs in the game, but I think there is a real problem in game balance that can't be fixed simply by strengthening the other potential tank jobs and keeping NIN the same.

So, the OP thinks it's preferable to generate a monopoly on tanking throughout the game to the extent where only a paladin can tank and has no problem with creating even more competition for those 8 hour wait DD slots? The small tweaks to the other "tanking" jobs will do nothing to remove a paladin monopoly this aside from the fact they're not tanking jobs anyway. I wonder which class the OP plays predominantly.

I said it long ago and I'll say it again, make Utsusemi: Ni a level 44 ability. You cut off the legs of all the burn parties and restore xp/merit grinding to at least some semblance of where it should be. The handing out of the major ninja-defining ability to everyone at 74 is about as acceptable as giving every job Refresh or TH2. Once that has been addressed then the balancing, because I believe some is necessary. between ninja and paladin can go ahead without walls of white noise from warriors and red mages etc.

As to the OP's suggestions, I find them laughable.

[Amovorite]

Why change Ninja? Just give Paladin Provoke. And then watch the tanking job chaos ensue.

[Celeal]

I would said:
1. Make Utsusemi: Ni level 38+....
2. Make Third Eye /recast timer to 15 seconds so that SAM/WAR or WAR/SAM can tank. Or make Thrid Eye /recast timer to 30 seconds and add Third Eye II at level 38+...
3. Increase Guarding proc-rate (like proc-rate of shield) for MNK/WAR to tank, introduce more cheap Counter+ gear.

[Mouser]

So, the OP thinks it's preferable to generate a monopoly on tanking throughout the game to the extent where only a paladin can tank and has no problem with creating even more competition for those 8 hour wait DD slots? The small tweaks to the other "tanking" jobs will do nothing to remove a paladin monopoly this aside from the fact they're not tanking jobs anyway. I wonder which class the OP plays predominantly.

I said it long ago and I'll say it again, make Utsusemi: Ni a level 44 ability. You cut off the legs of all the burn parties and restore xp/merit grinding to at least some semblance of where it should be. The handing out of the major ninja-defining ability to everyone at 74 is about as acceptable as giving every job Refresh or TH2. Once that has been addressed then the balancing, because I believe some is necessary. between ninja and paladin can go ahead without walls of white noise from warriors and red mages etc.

As to the OP's suggestions, I find them laughable.

Let me clairify why I think NIN should move to a more DD focused role. If Utsusemi is simply made less than 100%, there are three basic problems. 1st is that without shadows, a NIN, even with DEF food doesn't have a lot of defense to fall back on, so unless shadows process at a high rate, they would have difficulty tanking, and finding that balance point to make them as 'effective' over time as a PLD is insanely hard given the complexity of the game.

2nd is the player perception problem. If you just weaken NIN as a tank, people will likely adopt an attitude of 'NIN sucks now, get a XXX' instead. My proposal is to shift NINs' role entirely so that people will (hopefull) be more intrigued by the changes and be willing to experiment.

The 3rd reason is to actually increase tank diversity. If you made WAR/MNK, SAM/WAR, and MNK/WAR better able to tank at all levels, it wouldn't help. People would still demand a NIN or complain that they were 'settling' for a PLD or MNK or whatever. And trying to simultaneously bring NIN back in line with the other potential tanks and boost them up is a very difficult multvariable problem. BUt if you remove NIN as a tank, it's much easier to balance the remaining jobs since they all have the basic mechanic: some balance of offence vs defense and a way to mitigate, but not avoid damage.

PLD does it by high defense and Healing, but has very little offense (while geared to tank). WAR/MNK has better offense due to the accuracy from the Aggressor-Focus cycle but takes more damage. SAM has better offense due to Meditate and Store TP and can occasionally avoid a big hit with Third Eye, but also takes more damage. MNK mitigates damage with Guard and Counter and has the most HPs in the game. Because they all work in similar manners, but to different degrees, it's much simpler to adjust them to balance. Have a lot of healing in your party but not much offense? Pick a more offense oriented tank. Have tons of DD but not much healing? Pick a more defense oriented tank.

While it may seem backwards logic, the NIN is so good at tanking that it actually constricts the diversity of tanks.

As for my job, I avoided mentioning it since it has no bearing on the discussion, but since you ask, I'm a 75DRG. So as you see, I have no direct stake, other than the basic 'more tanks = more parties = more fun for me'.

In regards to my suggestions, they are just that, a jumping off point for a discussion, not a prescription.

[Grizzlebeard]

The 3rd reason is to actually increase tank diversity. If you made WAR/MNK, SAM/WAR, and MNK/WAR better able to tank at all levels, it wouldn't help. People would still demand a NIN or complain that they were 'settling' for a PLD or MNK or whatever. And trying to simultaneously bring NIN back in line with the other potential tanks and boost them up is a very difficult multvariable problem. BUt if you remove NIN as a tank, it's much easier to balance the remaining jobs since they all have the basic mechanic: some balance of offence vs defense and a way to mitigate, but not avoid damage.
You won't encourage tank diversity on any challenging content. Warriors, Samurai, and Monks aren't going to tank challenging mobs worth shit even with your changes. They lack the hate generation, both long term and spike, of a paladin along with the survivability gained from job abilities and healing power. Your proposal simply creates a one tank game with some melees that can stand in during xp parties and fulfill a role with a greatly reduced xp gain due to the fact they'll have to sacrifice their core roles, namely DD, to gear up in tank gear only to be a distant second to a paladin.
The only reason a ninja can compete for the tanking role with a paladin is because the ninja's way of tanking is completely different to that of a paladin, a ninja is an evasion based tank both via evasion and parrying skills and Utsusemi.. In a pure damage absorption setting no tank is going to ever compete with a paladin.

[Omni]

stop trying to make all jobs into hybrid jobs.

it doesnt solve anything.

[Macht]

stop trying to make all jobs into hybrid jobs.
it doesnt solve anything.

Totally agree, only hybriding that should occure is by what is choosen as the sub.

[Clever Ninja]

stop trying to make all jobs into hybrid jobs.

it doesnt solve anything.

QFT

Seriously, they can't propose enough changes to make other jobs tank without nerfing something. If they nerf a melee jobs DD ability just so you can get a few more tanks, we're gonna have a whole BLM monopoly again. That's not good. It'd be better just to add in a whole new job that is also focused on tanking instead, rather than gimp NIN just so PLD's can get more invites.

[Aeni]

It'd be better just to add in a whole new job that is also focused on tanking instead, rather than gimp NIN just so PLD's can get more invites.

This is what got us into trouble. Keep adding new jobs, let's see how SE is going to balance everyone. What a dumb idea.

[Aeni]

stop trying to make all jobs into hybrid jobs.

it doesnt solve anything.

Ahh ... news flash! We are already hybrids due to the subjob system.

Where in hell were you these past two years?

:wtf:

[raidenn]

I vote 'Barbarian' !

[Stooky]

Well, im leveling PLD atm, and I can feel the damage nin does to us. I see many nins get parties before I do and I have to sit waiting for a party for hours! In a week and a half I have gotten 4 parties and 2 levels. I have been looking for a party probley 50ish hours in the past week and a half and it is making me very frusterated. I love leveling PLD but since NIN is prefered by most people we dont get invites and on top of that im a Tarutaru, so I see all other races go before me. I can tank very well but people still dont invite me... This is more of a rant but somthing needs to be done to make NIN and PLD more equal instead of NIN being preferd, and PLD being second best in many peoples eyes... I hate that I have gotten a few invites that once im In the party I get a "Ahh a PLD and a tarutaru... no nins avalable I guess..." I dont know if this happens to many people but it has happened to me a few time...
Sorry for the rant...
-Stooky

[raidenn]

Happens to everyone.

Blms at the 60s are avoided too because the Xp mob (colibri) reflects magic back.
Drgs after the tp nerf at the 50s are avoided because the Xp mob (crabs) is resistant to piercing damage.
I still like Pld for holding hate though. I guess you might have just have had the wrong timing to seek a party. My party picked a Taru Pld last night over some Nins for Colibris.

[Stooky]

Maybe lol, just wish I could get some play time in instead of seeking time... War and nin I got to 37 so fast, but for pld its a lot slower to level lol... ^^"

[raidenn]

What level is your Pld now?
Yeah War is easy to get to 37.

[Macht]

Ahh ... news flash! We are already hybrids due to the subjob system.
Where in hell were you these past two years?
:wtf:

Actually I think he ment hybrids in the sence that 1 job started stealing specialities of other jobs. For example giving PLDs provoke, that's just way to powerful considering that provoke is prety signature ability to WARs.

The other would be giving MNKs a blood weapon like ability stealing it from DRKs. There is a clear line between them MNKs are skilled H2H fighters and a signature of theirs is the ability to counter attacks. DRKs are this games version of "Vampires" and rightly so should have blood weapon along with all their other absorb abilities.

This is what got us into trouble. Keep adding new jobs, let's see how SE is going to balance everyone. What a dumb idea.

For the most part the jobs that have been added are all in-line with SEs FF games which they've had over 10 previous FF games to get decently skilled at making and to know their positions fairly well. So they do have a vision to reach for, about the only job going into new terretory for them is probably just the puppet masters.

[Stooky]

Lol my pld is 32 o.o

[raidenn]

At that level you probably have to go to East Altepa for beetles right? Hmm I remember having a hard time finding a party there too because its usually packed. Not to mention 2-3 parties of RMT around. Some people hang out by the zone to west altepa seeking a party though.

[Macht]

At that level you probably have to go to East Altepa for beetles right? Hmm I remember having a hard time finding a party there too because its usually packed. Not to mention 2-3 parties of RMT around. Some people hang out by the zone to west altepa seeking a party though.

More then 1 area you can go for exp at lv. 32. If I recall that's when I went to Garliage Citadel and did the Bats. Or it was Crawler's Nest and killing flies.

[Omni]

Ahh ... news flash! We are already hybrids due to the subjob system.
Where in hell were you these past two years?
:wtf:


i had a response but ill just edit it out.
you're so inept sometimes. its almost funny.

[Clever Ninja]

This is what got us into trouble. Keep adding new jobs, let's see how SE is going to balance everyone. What a dumb idea.

All the new jobs have been DD only, which we have enough of. That's the main reason why the new jobs have been a problem. A tanking job is totally different from that and hasn't been added, since well, OMG SINCE NIN CAME OUT!? NO WAI!

Ahh ... news flash! We are already hybrids due to the subjob system.

Where in hell were you these past two years?

:wtf:

The sad thing is I think you're really serious when you say this.

[TenchiHawkwing]

I say give Ichi 2 more shadows, give Ni 3 more and have em work on the % of how many shadows you have left + Ninjutsu skill. Lower Ichi recast 5sec, lower Ni by 10.

50% Is the lowest chance you'll ever have of getting hit with Shadows up... That's with 0 skill. Maybe even have enemy INT as a factor. The way I'm seeing this... NIN main job would (with capped Ninjutsu) never have less than a 80%ish chance to get hit.

(Also, make -ga spells act like physical AoE where they don't always wipe all shadows...)

Therefore changing Utusemi, strengthing it in alot of ways and only taking away part of it's effectiveness.

Bad change for those NINs who are able to keep shadows up 24/7(sorry, but that's broken anyway) Good for everyone else imo.

EDIT: Also, rather than shadows making the user lose enmity when the enemy hits a shadow it should give the Nin a very small boost in enmity, ammount increasing with the # of shadows hit in a row.(I'd be pissed if I kept hitting shadow images)

[seq]

TenchiHawkwing we don't need less tanks eh,
you know THF gets like a cap of 80% evasion rate, and still gets hit by nooby mobs in the nooby camps at LV75.

(Also, make -ga spells act like physical AoE where they don't always wipe all shadows...)
then give PLD immunity (sp?) to magic >_>

i'de say give the Utsusimi caster no attack power at all when he have shadows up, thus makes NIN able to choose to DD or Tank NOT both at the same time.
or like what others said, give NIN MP (like PLD's or something) heh.
or you know what? make it dependant on your evasion skill.
edit:
evasion skill or Ninjutsu (sp? x.x) skill.

[TenchiHawkwing]

TenchiHawkwing we don't need less tanks eh,
you know THF gets like a cap of 80% evasion rate, and still gets hit by nooby mobs in the nooby camps at LV75.


then give PLD immunity (sp?) to magic >_>

i'de say give the Utsusimi caster no attack power at all when he have shadows up, thus makes NIN able to choose to DD or Tank NOT both at the same time.
or like what others said, give NIN MP (like PLD's or something) heh.
or you know what? make it dependant on your evasion skill.
edit:
evasion skill or Ninjutsu (sp? x.x) skill.

What do you mean by "We don't need less tanks"? I assume you don't know that most Ninjas get hit while tanking anyway(Especially on anything that can be considered "hard")... and notice that 80% was what I said would be the LOWEST(Hell, I even bolded it because I knew if I didn't someone would come in with a reply like this) chance they'd have of getting hit. (That's with 1 shadow left... the more shadows you have the more of a chance you'd have of the enemy hitting a shadow.)


The -ga not wiping all shadows is part of balancing the "new" Utsusemi I proposed. I'm not looking to nerf the ability, only change it.

A NIN will tell you getting hit by Whirl of Rage sucks as is, and there's even a chance that all their shadows won't be taken away by it... it still sucks to put up shadows and them BAM Whirl of Rage, etc. Magic -ga spells would act just like that.

But if you feel that would be too overpowering there would always be a condition by which all shadows are wiped. Magic could go by the same check as physical hits and if the spell were to hit the NIN directly through that check all shadows might dissapear, so sometimes NIN would keep shadows, sometimes not.



Also seq, keep in mind that my main is PLD, so I'm coming at this from that veiwpoint, as much as I'd love immunity to magic... I can look at our 2HR Invincible and easily be able to tell that SE intended that to be our weakness. Honestly I think the changes I'm talking about for Utsusemi would probably balance things in favor of PLD, while still leaving a place for NIN.

[Meepster]

wow... i...nevermind

lets start by assessing the situation here. we have this ongoing battle for "best tank" between 2 TOTALLY different jobs. Look at what the jobs can do first before you decide which one is better. From someone who has played on both sides of the fence, i'd say that they are both great jobs and neither one of them deserves to be 'nerfed' per se. Paladins are truly a powerhouse of a tank. Noone can take a hit like them, and now they have added autorefresh. Also they can tank with staves, which they happen to be very proficient with, and use the weapon skill Spirit taker to make their mana pool seemingly unending. They DO produce decent damage, maybe not as pld/war in a pt vs. IT++ mobs... but they can solo and do great dmg as pld/nin on the same lv that a ninja could, but with much less evasion... and for a good reason: they would be too powerful.

now lets look at the ninja. second highest evasion skill in the game (thief wins that area by a mile) which brings me to my main point about this job.... its effective as MAIN job only to try and solo or tank anything worth fighting in a pt! period. i've never seen a war/nin that tried to tank and didnt get his ass handed to him. look at the evasion skill on them. for example: i have a 75 blm... do you see me as blm/nin trying to solo crap with a staff? no! why? i'm not an idiot... my evasion skill caps at 200.... thats less than a lv 60 ninja has. noone can pull off blink tanking like a ninja can, except for thieves, but thieves cant tank for a pt. i'm not exactly sure of all the evasion skill caps for the other jobs but i'm SURE that they are probably a C or lower. You cant honestly expect to keep up with a ninja in that department. Ninjas on the other hand are capable of dealing better dmg than a pld. Yes this is true... but they also dont have JA's like rampart, sentinel, cover, cures, flash... see where i'm going? you have to pick your battles. Some mobs are easier to tank as ninja, while some are easier as pld. and why on earth people think utsusemi makes you invincible, i'll never understand. show me one ninja thats never been hit, never been one shotted in a pt, never had all thier shadows eaten by a single move from a mob and left with no recast.... and i'll show you my surpised face :O Also, look at dual wield. subbing ninja makes for some really slow delays, unless you sacrifice accuracy and potential damage for a crappy belt that speeds things up. there are other pieces of gear like suppannomimi which is an awesome piece of equipment, but also end-game, so you are still nice and slooooow while lvling from 20(when you get dual wield) - 75

neither job was meant to be invincible....
neither job is better than the other....
one is designed to not get hit, and when they do it hurts... bad
the other job is designed to get hit and not cry about it... and they do it... well

[Aeni]

i had a response but ill just edit it out.
you're so inept sometimes. its almost funny.


[n] an (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/an) offspring (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/offspring) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) genetically (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/genetically) dissimilar (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/dissimilar) parents (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/parents) or (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/or) stock (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/stock); especially (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/especially) offspring (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/offspring) produced (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/produced) by (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/by) breeding (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/breeding) plants (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/plants) or (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/or) animals (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/animals) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) different (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/different) varieties (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/varieties) or (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/or) breeds (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/breeds) or (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/or) species (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/species)
[n] a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) composite (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/composite) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) mixed (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/mixed) origin (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/origin); "the (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/the) vice (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/vice)-presidency (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/presidency) is (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/is) a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) hybrid (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/hybrid) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) administrative (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/administrative) and (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/and) legislative (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/legislative) offices (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/offices)"
[n] a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) word (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/word) that (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/that) is (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/is) composed (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/composed) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) parts (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/parts) from (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/from) different (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/different) languages (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/languages) (e (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/e).g (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/g)., `monolingual (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/monolingual)' has (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/has) a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) Greek (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/greek) prefix (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/prefix) and (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/and) a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) Latin (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/latin) root (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/root))
[adj] produced (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/produced) by (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/by) crossbreeding (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/crossbreeding) I think you're the one who needs to check his literacy background. AFAIK, I'm the only one here who knows what hybrid means. Take one job (main) and put it with another job (subjob) and you have a hybrid.

Do you know what it means? I doubt it.

[Meepster]

sorry if i seemed a bit rude in my post, but i honestly felt that it needed to be said. There really is nothing you can do to even out the jobs anymore. They are even. One is strong where the other is weak, and vice versa, it all depends on what kind of mobs you are fighting. ninjas dont need anymore shadows taken away from them... at all. Its hard enough to blink tank IT++ alot of the time without merits as is... as i said before, i'm a 75 blm so i put 2 merits in evasion, and i wear SH, evasion earring, fortitude torque, empress hairpin, bat cape, akinji bazubands, jaridah pants, spirit torque, and survival belt for evasion gear on my 62 ninja, and i still get owned and left with no shadows or recast more times than i'd like to. I'll bet paladins have the same problems. And if you gave them provoke or even thier own version of it (taunt or something) they would be too powerful because they could then sub ninja or redmage or something that would really benefit them. Bottom line, it all boils down to the player. If you wear decent gear and play to your limits, you'll excell in whatever you do. You can't point the finger at another job just because you are having some downtime with getting parties and feel that you arent wanted.

[Raydeus]

Sorry guys, but you kinda are 1 month late with your replies. :thumbsup:


*This is the part where you see a mod using (Lock Thread) ability*





...maybe

[Aeni]

Sorry guys, but you kinda are 1 month late with your replies. :thumbsup:


*This is the part where you see a mod using (Lock Thread)ability*





...maybe

Umm ... wtf? Have nothing better to do than troll? That's a bannable offense.

[Raydeus]

Umm ... wtf? Have nothing better to do than troll? That's a bannable offense.

Hey man, don't take your anger out on me, if you are mad about that comment you replied to that has nothing to do with me. I'm just pointing out this thread is a month old and most people already forgot about it.

Just chill. :biggrin:

[Omni]

[n] an (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/an) offspring (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/offspring) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) genetically (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/genetically) dissimilar (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/dissimilar) parents (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/parents) or (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/or) stock (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/stock); especially (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/especially) offspring (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/offspring) produced (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/produced) by (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/by) breeding (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/breeding) plants (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/plants) or (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/or) animals (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/animals) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) different (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/different) varieties (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/varieties) or (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/or) breeds (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/breeds) or (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/or) species (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/species)
[n] a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) composite (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/composite) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) mixed (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/mixed) origin (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/origin); "the (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/the) vice (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/vice)-presidency (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/presidency) is (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/is) a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) hybrid (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/hybrid) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) administrative (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/administrative) and (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/and) legislative (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/legislative) offices (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/offices)"
[n] a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) word (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/word) that (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/that) is (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/is) composed (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/composed) of (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) parts (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/parts) from (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/from) different (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/different) languages (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/languages) (e (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/e).g (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/g)., `monolingual (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/monolingual)' has (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/has) a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) Greek (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/greek) prefix (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/prefix) and (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/and) a (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) Latin (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/latin) root (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/root))
[adj] produced (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/produced) by (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/by) crossbreeding (http://hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/crossbreeding) I think you're the one who needs to check his literacy background. AFAIK, I'm the only one here who knows what hybrid means. Take one job (main) and put it with another job (subjob) and you have a hybrid.
Do you know what it means? I doubt it.


read back. please. it'll do you some good. everyone else knew the context of what i meant by hybrid except you.

the discussion was about jobs being able to do many things, and to do them well. jobs like rdm and blu are 2 jobs that can do many things pretty darn well. it has nothing to do with the actually meaning of hybrid. i beileve the discussion was pertaining to pld and how nin does tanking AND dd well and pld cant. some people suggested making pld dd better so it can compete with nin. giving too many jobs the ablity to do too many things well does not solve the balance issue.

A war/whm is not a hybrid job by this context. that is what YOU were pointing out. yea take your websters dictionary and sure its a hybrid job it can heal and do some dmg. however this is not what we were talking about. you of all players should know that a war/whm cant heal a pt reliable and be a great dd. just because a war/whm has cure II in its list of abilties, doesnt mean its a hybrid job. really, go listen to yourself.

dude, stop taking things out of context then trying to make a point out of them.
you're really pathetic trying to pull some webster dictionary response.

[Antivomit]

Well, lets go way way back to the start of this thread for a sec. I actually really like that idea. It's got cool names for stuff and cool features. Why when something gets changed it gets deemed "nerfing"? Change is not bad, guys. I've noticed that when people get comfortable with a certain situation, they will defend it to the death, no matter what the suggested change is. I agree that this will prolly never happen and not many will like it due to the traditionalist factor, but none the less.... Kudos for a well thought plan.

[Malacite]

In every other FF, blink/utsusemi was an evasion spell. While active, it greatly increased evasion against physical (and I think magical) attacks.

Changing it back to that would have a number of effects though.

1) A lot of people will be pissed off.

2) Depending on how SE implements it, it could actually end up being more broken than it already is, possibly evading all hits for the duration. They could fix that though by making it so that as soon as you're hit you have to recast, but it never worked that way before so.... idk

3) For this to work they would likely have to implement magic evasion as a new secondary stat, which would really, really piss off every mage job in the game