Sam/mnk 1-75?

[Kyero Fox]

Is it possible to get partys using MNK or THF as Subjob from lvl1 to lvl75?

[Aeolus]

After 30 a thf subjob would be semi worthwhile as you get sneak attack from sub. Cant think why you would want that over /war until 60 when you would get sneak and trick attack and could replace the thf in your party. Berserk is more worthwhile to 60 for the extra Str and Atk+ from berserk. No idea why you would want to sub mnk. Your never going to use H2H as samurai so martials wouldnt benefit you and all mnks JA are specifically geared towards mnks and just wouldnt make your job any stronger like subbing war would. So yes to invites as sam/thf and no to invites as sam/mnk.

[Kyero Fox]

eh just wondering because my brother keeps saying it that its better than Warrior ... I keep telling him hes wrong because I've lvl my Samurai too 48

[Celeal]

Before lvl 60, SAM often ask to /war for 1st provoke for SATA + Distortion with THF. It is because SAM has decent armor selection, Tachi: Enpi does decent dmg and can open Distortion, Third Eye, decent parry + evasion skill, good amount of HP... In other words, SAM/WAR + THF makes good partner. If SAM/MNK, a major selling point for SAM is gone.

[Clever Ninja]

Once you leave the Dunes, as you can sub anything in the Dunes and it won't matter, MNK sub is a no-no. Let's look at the abilities SAM gets with MNK and WAR sub, not bringing up the stats they give.

WAR sub
Level 10 - Provoke
Level 20 - Defense Bonus
Level 30 - Berserk and Resist Virus(I dont really care for Virus, but meh >_>)
Level 50 - Defender and Double Attack(Double Attack owns)
Level 70 - Warcry and Resist Virus II

MNK sub
Level 10 - Boost
Level 20 - Counter
Level 30 - Dodge, HP Boost
Level 50 - Focus
Level 70 - Chakra, HP Boost II

Although from 10-20 a SAM can main tank just fine and you can do it with either sub, from 20 on WAR is alot better. Provoke is handy for taking aggro in emergencies, Defense Bonus and Defender complement these moments, Berserk Warcry AND Double Attack make the DD role of a Samurai a hell of a lot easier, and Resist Virus.......yea, its there.

MNK sub gives you Boost, which is nice to use before WS, but it causes some aggro. and Berserk is better than this in that although it causes more damage which = more aggro also, it lasts for a longer amount of time. After level 20, although it may happen, you shouldn't be tanking anymore, so Counter isn't used as often. Focus is actually a really useful ability, but compared to having both Berserk AND Double Attack from /WAR at that level, it pales in comparison. I can see MNK sub working extremely well in Ballista though, but for XP situations stick to /WAR or the ever expensive /RNG sub.

[raidenn]

Never seen a /monk before. Try it out and seek party.

[neighbortaru]

:huh: /mnk is better than /war?

i think your brother is making things up...

[Ziero]

All Mnk could offer to an offensive Sam, which all sams are, is boost and focus. And all that gives is a small att+ for one hit and +20 Acc for 2 out of 5 minutes that doesn't scale.

War gives you Berserk, +25% more att for 3/5 minutes, Att bonus, which is +10 att, Warcry, which gives +25ish att for 30 seconds out of every 5 minutes and double attack, which will give you an extra swing every 10% of your attacks, including WS.

Now looking at that, it might *seem* mnk would be useful for the acc buff to help tp gain, but War, and even Rng, would be better as their traits are both much better at gaining TP then focus. Mnk sub is only good for two things as far as I understand, PvP with the HP+, Counter, Dodge and Chakra or Spirits Within spam, which is surpasses by /thf sub and SaTa WS with good equip.

[Ramath]

Monk does offer a few good options, but like it has been said, warrior and thief are pretty much main stream; and for good reason.

[luisa]

hey dont forget about rng, i t hink rng at 60 is the best sub, but i havent tryed it yet cuz im 41, all i heard is sub rng if u think u can survive it, and thats the kind of challenge i like. and also i thirst for blood. lol

[Dwarkyzidez]

I still wanna ask if I can sub /MNK on my SAM. Truely, I hate WAR with a passion. I hated leveling it to 23 and quit there. I really wanna level SAM, and the only other jobs I can possibly use would be MNK or RNG.

MNK is 32 now, RNG is 4 but I'm willing to level that. However, I'm poor as hell and don't really know of any way to make a steady income. So I'm limited. Do I HAVE to level WAR or can I bypass on MNK? Should I level RNG, and if so, whats a good way to make money as 32MNK / 30RDM / 36SAM ? And THF is out of the question, I'll quit before I level that job again.

[luisa]

well the truth is that not alot of people are ready for sam/rng, too much hate maker that can cause instant massacre to be written on your forehead, learn that today as i got my butt handed to me alot of the time for making 700+ws dmg at only 100%tp and at times more than once with meditate, but the truth is that some subs are meant for certain situation, if its dd what you seek , sub thf, if its dd and sc sub war, i subbed war and didnt like it so i subbed thf, i liked it better, until i subbed rng, but yet rng doesnt do too good on certain mogs, such as puks, but the subject is about /monk, you can try it, but the truth is, that you are going to have to make the parties, and from what i saw on a previous post where they showed the diff on both subs, thank you Clever Ninja, i see no reason to sub mnk, infact i dont see how mnk subb will make your sam stronger, but ill let you go on this note, make the pt, prove us wrong and make the impact, some times for a weird sub to be accepted people that are willing to explore have to make a impression on other players, so make your pt's and make sure you know what youre doing and getting into, cause one thing is to make an impression and get invites after that than to make a fool out of your self and no one take you seriously.

[IfritnoItazura]

I still wanna ask if I can sub /MNK on my SAM.
The answer is still "No, not for exp parties."

Truely, I hate WAR with a passion. I hated leveling it to 23 and quit there. I really wanna level SAM, and the only other jobs I can possibly use would be MNK or RNG.
Well, /MNK is not an option. You're left with RNG, then.

As an alternative, you can level and use /DRG, perhaps?

It's a terrific support job at SAM20/DRG10 for Jump and Attack Bonus. Not sure how it parse against /WAR after Lv.30, but it shouldn't be that bad.

At SAM30/DRG15, you can add Wyvern Earring (Haste+5%) and Wyvern Mantle (Attack+6) to the setup, too. At SAM60/DRG30, you'd get Accuracy Bonus, and High Jump comes at SAM70/DRG35.

In truth, though, if you plan to take SAM to Lv.75, you really should level both WAR and THF.

[Amele]

speaking from experience with a friend running sam/drg at level 30 alongside my sam/war:

I outparsed him.. barely. his ws were more frequent and he could self SC, but my per hit damage and per ws damage were higher, berserk pushed me over. it's just flat out better than jump at this level (obvious reasons) haste+5% from the earring closed the gap alot (we tried it both with and without the haste earring) viable sub. probably more damage than sam/thf until at least 66 - doesn't match sam/war until *maybe* 60+ with the accuracy bonus and eventually high jump.

sam/drg makes the ideal haste build though. very easy to cap haste from gear.

[Omni]

sam/drg or any /drg is used early on for the fact that /drg gets a attack bonus at lv. 10. no other job gets this trait that early.

If you do happen to take it past 30, then the haste earring helps too but in the end, /war will always beat out /drg. /thf is great for hnm since it forces criticals and burst dmg is very important for hnm.

[raidenn]

Wow someone really wants to try /monk? Does that mean you have to use Boost before every hit?

If you dont have a way to make some gil before getting higher, better stop for awhile and find a way. Gear gets pricey starting the 50s. Whats worst is if you are using /Rng, you have to buy good arrows too.

/War works well if you know when to provoke a mob when it starts checking out your mages. It makes you a good party member and people always remember that. In this game, reputation counts a lot. Around the higher levels, you need all the reputation you can get. Theres a ton of damage jobs already looking for parties.
Parties get pretty scarce unless you are with a static.

[IfritnoItazura]

sam/drg or any /drg is used early on for the fact that /drg gets a attack bonus at lv. 10. no other job gets this trait that early.

Dark Knight (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Dark_Knight).

[Malacite]

I outparsed him.. barely. his ws were more frequent and he could self SC, but my per hit damage and per ws damage were higher, berserk pushed me over. it's just flat out better than jump at this level (obvious reasons) haste+5% from the earring closed the gap alot (we tried it both with and without the haste earring) viable sub. probably more damage than sam/thf until at least 66 - doesn't match sam/war until *maybe* 60+ with the accuracy bonus and eventually high jump.


What were you fighting? Was he using Polearm with a Lancebelt? SAM/DRG can really tear into the jungles and GC @30 with a good spear. Good as berserk is, it won't hold up against a permanent 25% bonus to all attacks. (Mandra and bats)


As for /MNK, no. Just no. Get that notion out of your head right now. I tried messing around with it earlier to see if it boosted Seigan's counter rate, and from what I could gather it made no difference.


Level that war sub man. Suck it up and get it over. Hell, you're just starting the fun levels of WAR, assuming you're using a Great Axe. Everyone levels subjobs they don't necessarily like but need for their main. You're only hurting yourself (and whoever your PT with, if you get invited) by leaving it at 23.


As for SAM/RNG, that combo is all about spamming Sidewinder later on and using Barrage along with Meditate to generate insane TP. It doesn't really take off into the late 50's however and sushi is a must for this combo, as SAM only has a C+ rating in archery. I have 4 merits (+8 skill) and all the +racc gear I can get and still have a hard time landing shots on some mobs.

[Amele]

What were you fighting? Was he using Polearm with a Lancebelt? SAM/DRG can really tear into the jungles and GC @30 with a good spear. Good as berserk is, it won't hold up against a permanent 25% bonus to all attacks. (Mandra and bats)

we were fighting sahagin, he was using the same weapon I was (Kotetsu, best gkt for 27-34) they are not particularly strong or weak vs. any melee type in any case. (which makes it a fairer comparison) I was pulling with capped archery so I had a slight tp bonus (I hit about 1/4 shots on the pull - wasn't bothering with racc or proper positioning)

as far as using a spear goes - the gap vs. gkt is a 'mere' 4 points, so it's hardly necessary to sub dragoon to wield a spear and then you can enjoy berserk *and* the 25% damage bonus. (granted, you do lose on a potential 5 polearm skill, which is about 10 accuracy)

question about your sam/rng: how are you generating most of your tp? I've seen some that basically play as a ranger with meditate, and others who play as a samurai who basically has a bonus second 'meditate' in barrage. (I have my thoughts as well but wanted to hear what setup you're using specifically before we get into a discussion of what I was intending once I reach 70+)

[Omni]

Dark Knight (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Dark_Knight).

ah i stand corrected.

[Malacite]

I mix it up. When I need to skill up my archery after a LV up, I stand back and keep shooting. Other times I go the "real" approach and use my Soboro to gain TP at a ludicrous rate, run back and fire Sidewinder.

Rinse, lather, repeat. If Sharpshot is up I don't even bother running; last night I was in a PT against puks on my 60 SAM. Every time SS, Barrage and Med were up I'd use them all in conjunction with Seigan + Third Eye (I have a major death wish when I do this) and bust out an easy 2k+ dmg to the poor puk, depending on misses and dmg reduction.

[Amele]

yeah. pretty much what I had in mind, - shigeto(+1), I'd assume? or did you go with a lower delay bow for faster shots?

[luisa]

puks? i tried killing puks at 59 as sam/rng and it was hard core hell, missed alot and when i finally hit it was for 460 the most, but coli take hardcore dmg from me, and i solo a bird from caedarva mire, using 2 hr+ side winder and barrage+ sidewinder and meditate+ side winder, he left me with 10 hp, but how can i own puks, im at lvl 60 now, should i try n take my pts to puks now that im 60?

[Amele]

luisa: some random tips^^

assuming you have your archery skill capped (if you don't, the first step to hitting more is obviously capping it) : you can do 1 of 2 things.

1) get more racc gear (say, another +20 or more if you can, feel free to macro out your normal accuracy for this if you need to find more slots, it'll be in a macro for your ranged ws.)
2) wait for 50% more tp on sidewinder when you can't fire with Sharpshot up. (so if you normally go at 150, go at 200 etc) generally speaking, don't go at less than 150 on sidewinder if you can help it.

hitting for around 500 with sidewinder is pretty standard for samurai in the 60's, from what I've seen. you can boost the damage with more +agi and more +str (the agi is better generally, until you can get about double the strength than agi in the same slot) more +ratt, and higher damage bow and arrows.

puk are weak to piercing, but probably have higher evasion / slightly higher level than colibri at your level if I remember correctly. more +racc will help you here.

use your GKT to build tp if you can. only fire barrage with sharpshot up.

[luisa]

well i have a update on my sam/rng at lvl 60, IT F%^^&&* ROCKS, i love it, i do 700+ dmg on both puks and coli at 100% tp, i have been doing awsome on puks since i learnd how to avoid shooting at him when hes using shadows and blind, i really dont have that much rng acc gear but the stuff i use i guess is good enought since i rarely miss, but things are looking awsome, oh and one more thing, only use sam/rng if your pt is really good or if every one knows what they are doing, cause i was shooting sidewinder as much as 2 times perfight and using barrage and trust me, i didnt die at all, we had smn, mnk, pld, sam, rdm and brd. oh and just to say this, mnk rocks too.

For gear i use the lvl 55 body that gives rng acc, dont know the name, but is the reg version not the +1, i also have a empress hairband, bounding boots, agil earrings the lvl 59 spectacles, that gives rng acc, and some range acc + earring, i have the bow that has +18 rng att i think, and i use some arrows that have rng acc+15, for rings i use str rings and for hands i use o.kote, along with squid sushi, and i use af pants. i made a marco to use at 90% or so when on tp to use meditate, then side winder, then side winder then barrage, then side winder, i use side winder back to back after med, cause side winder gives me 16 tp after used helping med reach 100%

[Viral Id0l]

i use /mnk for my sam, and its awesome....people always say no no no /war is better...but since ive used /mnk im actualy doing more dmg than /war sometimes...
im lvl 20sam/10mnk. i hate war too...i took it to 8 before i said skrew it....but ya...i know about 5 other people who use /mnk...one of them was 3rd best sam in his server....itll work...ull be surprised on what ive made work....

[Timian]

>_>

Yeah... you have fun with that.

[raidenn]

puks? i tried killing puks at 59 as sam/rng and it was hard core hell, missed alot and when i finally hit it was for 460 the most, but coli take hardcore dmg from me, and i solo a bird from caedarva mire, using 2 hr+ side winder and barrage+ sidewinder and meditate+ side winder, he left me with 10 hp, but how can i own puks, im at lvl 60 now, should i try n take my pts to puks now that im 60?

Well thats bound to happen. You will miss a lot on IT mobs with Archery. Thats why its not too useful in Xp parties.
Just chain colibris and you'll be better off really. I think Puks are better around 63 or something. Less stress from knockbacks and flashes.

[raidenn]

i use /mnk for my sam, and its awesome....people always say no no no /war is better...but since ive used /mnk im actualy doing more dmg than /war sometimes...
im lvl 20sam/10mnk. i hate war too...i took it to 8 before i said skrew it....but ya...i know about 5 other people who use /mnk...one of them was 3rd best sam in his server....itll work...ull be surprised on what ive made work....

Do you have to boost every time you strike? Doesnt that take add up to Gkatana delay ?
The purpose of a /war is added str and another provoker. It helps the party especially if the mob looks at your whm or blm. Contributes a bit to the party you know?

[Malacite]

i use /mnk for my sam, and its awesome....people always say no no no /war is better...but since ive used /mnk im actualy doing more dmg than /war sometimes...


Bull crap. Screens/Parser Log or it didn't happen. No way /MNK is beating Double Attack and Berserk (+25% attack)

[Amele]

well.

if you put a sam/war in outdated nq (walmart sam) vs. a heavily equipped sam/mnk or the sam/mnk was 2-3 levels ahead of the sam/war in (what I can only assume is the pre 30 level range, or there would be *no* question which subjob would win)
say, the dunes. then yeah, I could see sam/mnk outparsing sam/war.

it's been said elsewhere, but it bears repeating.

the dunes do not count when talking about what subjobs are viable. (since esp. in dunes 'no subjob' is viable.) and you could even make a case that qufim doesn't particularly count, since most subjobs don't give a really relevant ability until level 15+

[raidenn]

I guess soloing would be good if you're sam/mnk in the high levels. I sure hate boosting every 8 seconds just to make that normal hit. Ive never seen someone outparsing sam/thf yet though.
But hey, experiment and see if sam/mnk is acceptible to parties. Tell us how long it takes you to get a party. Always wanted to see how other subjobs work.

[Malacite]

if you put a sam/war in outdated nq (walmart sam) vs. a heavily equipped sam/mnk or the sam/mnk was 2-3 levels ahead of the sam/war in (what I can only assume is the pre 30 level range, or there would be *no* question which subjob would win)
say, the dunes. then yeah, I could see sam/mnk outparsing sam/war.


That's not the issue. Of course gear/skill is a factor, but I meant strictly in terms of what job abilites /WAR should not and can not lose to /MNK by 30+, even in the hands of a retarded monkey.

[Amele]

That's not the issue. Of course gear/skill is a factor, but I meant strictly in terms of what job abilites /WAR should not and can not lose to /MNK by 30+, even in the hands of a retarded monkey.


yeah, it wasn't until I noticed the poster lists sam20 as his job that the answer clicked into place. - and if the retarded monkey was afraid to use berserk, that would probably answer a big part of the question too. (5-9.5% damage boost from DA is overcomeable by gear gap).

Ive never seen someone outparsing sam/thf yet though.

I want to see the parse where any (non-amano) sam/thf outparsed sam/war or sam/rng in comparable gear. in other words: POITD.

[Malacite]

No one's going to touch SAM/THF in terms of raw WS damage, but the DoT of SAM/WAR or SAM/RNG with a Soboro is very scary.

[raidenn]

I wish I can get that weapon. :(

[Amele]

No one's going to touch SAM/THF in terms of raw WS damage, but the DoT of SAM/WAR or SAM/RNG with a Soboro is very scary.

that's just it. SAM/THF doesn't even win in WSdot - only in per hit WS damage, which is why I want to see a parse before I'll believe a claim that sam/thf 'can't be touched' ws or otherwise. (yeah, I realize SAM/THF is gonna be able to hit higher 'record' gekkos, except for epeen and certain specific situations, that doesn't count for much.)

{warning: math and theory}

I don't think anyone is willing to argue sam/thf will win on dot. so we'll concede that to the sam/war right away.

at standard (0% haste) cadence; assuming six hit store tp setup, and (we'll be generous) perfect accuracy, a samurai will gain 100TP in exactly 45 seconds (with 90% accuracy this will be 'an average' of 50 seconds.) - this means that a sam/thf will only be firing one weaponskill (SA WS) a minute, and will have one throwaway weaponskill every 2.5 minutes (with fully merited haste). the sam/war will throw 20% more weaponskills over time, and all weaponskills will be at an average of 15%+10 higher attack than sam/thf (excluding warcry here.)

at hasso cadence (10% haste) again, six hit store tp; a samurai will gain 100TP in 40.9 seconds ('average' of ~45 seconds with 90% accuracy) this means a sam/thf will still be firing only weaponskill (SA WS) a minute, and will *still* have one throwaway weaponskill every 2.5 minutes. sam/war will throw 33% more weaponskills again at 15%+10 higher attack (excluding warcry)

at 65% haste (hasso + 25% gear + 15% haste spell + 15% march) again, six hit store tp; a samurai will gain 100TP in 27.3 seconds (~30 seconds 'average' @90% accuracy) - now a sam/thf can throw a weaponskill every 30 seconds (one throwaway one with SA) but the sam/war will *still* be throwing 20% more weaponskills, and again, with +15% higher attack (excluding warcry).

SA will give a +1.0 PDIF change, which will generally be between 25% and 100% extra damage. assuming that you can get your attack to at least 400, this boost will be approximately 60% in most exp situations.

assuming WS by thief without SA as baseline of '1'. (this is major simplification but easy math is much simpler to follow and the simplifications are all in the favor of sam/thf here anyway).

I have added an additional +9% damage to the sam/war to represent the effect of double attack in weaponskills (fires 10% of the time for 90% accuracy for 'double damage') 1.09 * 1.15 = 1.25

haste 0 sam/thf: 1.6 / 60 + 1 / 150 = .032
haste 0 sam/war: 1.25/50 + 1.25 / 150 = .033
-> sam/war wins on weaponskills. (although not by much)

hasso haste sam/thf: 1.6 / 60 + 1 / 150 = .032
hasso haste sam/war 1.25/45 + 1.25/150 = .036
-> sam/war wins bigger on weaponskills.

65% haste sam/thf: 1.6 / 60 + 1 / 60 + 1 / 150 = .042
65% haste sam/war 1.25 / 30 + 1.25 / 150 = .050
-> sam/war wins *even bigger* on weaponskills.

{end of math and theory}

if you're going for damage: sam/war is better than sam/thf for *almost* all situations.

if you need to assist a tank in hate control - sam/thf is gonna be better than sam/war.

- I didn't include soboro intentionally. it's a *fantastic weapon* (I love mine) but it has little bearing on whether or not war or thf is the better subjob (it does, however, totally change the way sam/rng plays).