When should I Sub Nin?

[zarcoft]

I want to be a War/Nin for a long time and I finally got my nin to 37 I was wondering at lvl 30 should I go war/nin or should I stay war/thf till 48 for Viking Axes?

[Caspian]

Its rather funny. I've been in parties pre-30 that wanted me to sub nin. Even though /mnk is the superior sub until 48 at the earliest. (Some say 50 for DWII or even 55 for Rampage.) I'd say stick it out with /mnk until 48, then do it up with dual vikings.

[Lmnop]

I take it you don't like tanking? yea totally stay War/thf. War/nin is still nice for parties with bad hate control, but it's easy to play War/thf Conservatively and still be obscene every 100% tp. I'd also suggest having decent defense gear for the combo (it's not that hard to buy some cheap high defense equipment to macro in when you get hate, and then have another macro for when you're not damage-tanking).

[Mav]

as soon as i hit 24 i started subbing ninja. i honestly don't believe War/Monks parse better damage. I build tp very quickly with my 2 axes, and my raging axe hits IT mobs in the jungle for up to 160 with berserk on.

i also have shadows, which means against goblins, i can absorb 6 hits at the start of a pull before i start getting clobbered. that gives the main healer extra regen time, or it gives the mainhealer/debuffer time to cast debuffs without falling behind in the healing.

[Celeal]

pre-48, /nin is decent if you need shadow for almost every fight (SATA partner, share tank with other nin or /nin, etc). For closing skillchain, /THF is a nice option.

[Skoal]

My war is 34 and the last few parties I have been in every melee was /nin. I noticed the whm was casting Banish alot. I guess they were bored from not healing. I would suggest trying it out just to get a feeling for it.

[Zamphire]

as soon as i hit 24 i started subbing ninja. i honestly don't believe War/Monks parse better damage. I build tp very quickly with my 2 axes, and my raging axe hits IT mobs in the jungle for up to 160 with berserk on.

i also have shadows, which means against goblins, i can absorb 6 hits at the start of a pull before i start getting clobbered. that gives the main healer extra regen time, or it gives the mainhealer/debuffer time to cast debuffs without falling behind in the healing.

I actually swtiched to /nin after about 30 so I'm not trying to bash it or anything. A war/mnk may not parse "better" damage, but I can promise a war/mnk with a G.axe can do just as much damage. Before Dual Wield II, the delay for both weapons are added together and that makes your total delay. At 32 your best axes are Warrior's Axe with 260 delay, add two of those together, that's a wopping 520 delay. Both of those axes have a 25 attack with a DPS of 543. At 31 the best great axe is the Twicer with added Double Attack, which means more double attacking for you, yay! But lets say you can't get the best, lets go with Voulge. Delay of 504, right then I'm attacking quicker then you, with an attakc of 50, meaning I'm hitting twice as hard as one of your hits, yes, you hit twice, i know, that's why I said it's about even. The thing that really starts to add up if you ask me is crit hits. With a crit hit on a Gaxe I was hitting 104+, yes, over 100. On Axe I barely hit for 60 on a crit in the 30s. And dont say "I can crit with both swings!" Yes... you can, but it's rare. TP Return for one swing on Gaxe is 16, tp return for one swing on axe is 6 I think, not sure though. Even with two swings we gain more tp faster. Not to mention boost, which doesn't help much but it does. Sturmwind is our best friend. We get it around 30ish and it hits HARD, I've had it do 240 on mandys in the first jungle.

Shadows are nice, and really good for tanking. I static with my wife, we both go WAR/NIN and dual tank almost perfectly together. So WAR/NIN has it's merrits, but WAR/MNK does too.

[ValisOfValefor]

that's a wopping 520 delay

Actually theres a 10% delay reduction from DWI, and with that added in it comes out the dealy is basically the same as a great axe, but not enough to notice.

[Tokitoki]

You arent hitting twice as hard either most of the time... DMG ratings on weapons dont mean you're always doing that much damage, or have that much attack. Theres a whole damage calculation...

Anyway... yea...

[Coffeeandapples]

Your damage per second with 2 axes doesn't get better than G.Axe until level 43 with Dual Combat Caster +2's. Then, you don't have sturmwind so you'll probably still be doing less until viking axes. However, if you find yourself taking hate too much, or have to duo tank, /nin is much better in decreasing downtime overall. I'd give this a situational and level all 3, and make the sub call before the party... but thats just me. /mnk for solo tank, /thf for pure damage post 30, /nin for duo tank and if you are going to be taking too much hate(and post 50 with dual axes for damage). Should still use G.Axe till 43 at least reguardless of sub, in my opinion.

[Zamphire]

You arent hitting twice as hard either most of the time... DMG ratings on weapons dont mean you're always doing that much damage, or have that much attack. Theres a whole damage calculation...

Anyway... yea...

Yea, there's a whole damage calculation. But in general, I'm hitting 25-30 with one axe, where as I'm hitting 50-60 with a great axe. More or less, double.

[seq]

Actually theres a 10% delay reduction from DWI, and with that added in it comes out the dealy is basically the same as a great axe, but not enough to notice.
some say 5% others say 10%, stop spreading rumors. DW1 does nothing noticable.
WAR/NIN can use great axe too Zamphire ^^, Sturmwind is way better than Raging axe 'till DW2 is availabe.
as for your question, when to start /NIN. you can start it at 24 if you want to dual tank with another NIN or /NIN but if you'll solo tank /MNK is better i think.
/NIN is used for:
1) Dual weild II (WAR50/NIN25 gets it)
2) Utsusimi (Not much, but good to first voke for the THF to SATA or to voke when the NIN is slowed and the WHM doesn't have Erase >.>)
3) Dual tanking (2 WAR/NIN)
4) benefitial weapons, weapons with added stats (like Warrior's axe , STR & DEX +1 or Viking axe )

other than that, i don't think you should /NIN.
something to note though, when DW1 Axes misses there is a chance only one hit misses and half the TP & DMG is calcualted, but when a great axe misses it's 0DMg and 0TP.

[supersimian]

It kinda depends I think. I would not sub thf unless there was a pally tank in the party. If a Ninja was the main tank I would step away from putting down the big damage with /thf and opt for /nin as ninjas are terrible hate keepers imo. My advice is to have both ready.

[Armando]

some say 5% others say 10%, stop spreading rumors. DW1 does nothing noticable.
WAR/NIN can use great axe too Zamphire ^^, Sturmwind is way better than Raging axe 'till DW2 is availabe.
as for your question, when to start /NIN. you can start it at 24 if you want to dual tank with another NIN or /NIN but if you'll solo tank /MNK is better i think.DWI is a 10% reduction in Delay, this is a hard fact. DWI has a bigger impact on your base Delay than DWII has on your post-DWI Delay.

Anyways, my condensed opinion:
Break WS > All
Break WS > Sturmwind > Raging Axe
Great Axe > Axe 99% of the time until 48

/NIN tip #1: You can use a Great Axe while going /NIN. Do so.
/NIN tip #2: You have shadows. Use them. Shadows not used is MP wasted. If you aren't pulling hate from the tank, then do so. Periodically.
/NIN tip #3: If you're not using your shadows, sub something else. If you have a really good tank, sub something else. If you get to the point that your EXP is limited only by your killing speed, sub something else. If your party has no downtime with the tank taking hits full time, sub something else. If you're solo tanking with just Utsusemi: Ichi, sub something else.

[ValisOfValefor]

some say 5% others say 10%, stop spreading rumors

.... sigh, how come everyone always resorts to this, I know this from listening from Armando. He's a lot better than me, with the formulas and math, and also tests out much of his information if it's possible. And I trust what he says.

Where as at 30, there is a weapon that outparses most Gaxes, the Military Pick if i remember right, though its mega expensive most the time, becuase its a really good weapon. Still I myself am a huge supporter of Gaxe whenever possible, though now I do see the benifits of /nin, I still believe that other subjobs can be just as benificial.

I really learned alot in this thread (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/warrior/57800-great-axe.html), and changed my views on the way Warrior worked.

Warrior is a flexible job, and was made to be that way ^^;

(lol and I just noticed Armando posted, and agree entirely with what he says about the Break WS being most benificial,)

Though the one weapon skill I still want to see in action is full break, espcially on an enemy or element it's weak against.

[Lmnop]

on the one hand, these are forums meant to discuss things that'll make people talk and respond, and listen to their responses...

... on the other hand, we've seen this topic far too many times. I guess there's not a whole lot we can tell you except listen to Armando. He knows what he's talking about. Even if your axes can keep up with a greataxe hit-for-hit, your weapon skills suck ass. I'm stealing someone's quote when I say that the fact that many Dark Knights use Greataxe over their A rank weapons should say a lot for the power of Greataxe.

sooo yea, Sturmwind is way better than anything your dual axes could ever do, and break weapon skills are better than anything Sturmwind could bring to a party... I'll let it slide when you're subbing THF though.

[pearlsea]

I go war/nin using a neckchopper at lvl 26, while people say to sub mnk i dont see anything benifital frop /mnk other than boost which is only nice if you chain boost a WS and counter which is not that useful since war realy shouldent tank, they can in the earlyer levels but its no where as efficient as a nin or pld tank. Plus shadows can be realy usefull like backup tanking for a nin pre 37 or dual tanking with another war.

[Armando]

Haha, don't say "listen to Armando," one day I might screw up and embarass myself XD
I go war/nin using a neckchopper at lvl 26, while people say to sub mnk i dont see anything benifital frop /mnk other than boost which is only nice if you chain boost a WS and counter which is not that useful since war realy shouldent tank, they can in the earlyer levels but its no where as efficient as a nin or pld tank. Plus shadows can be realy usefull like backup tanking for a nin pre 37 or dual tanking with another war.WAR can and should tank, especially pre-37 when PLD and NIN still don't have their most powerful spell (Flash and Utsusemi: Ni respectively.) There's no logical reason why WAR can't tank pre-37 even through with oldschool /MNK tanking, and they do more than fine enough to tank if there is no PLD or NIN to at least 50. Also, a single Counter a every 1:00-1:30 minutes with a weapon as slow as Great Axe translates to a very large ammount of imaginary haste, which would give it an absolute advantage over even dual wielded axes.

Oh, yeah, and I still insist that a WAR/BLU should be able to tank and DD at the same time. I'm going to be doing CoP 2-5 Mammets soon, I have big plans >3 I'm gonna go WAR/BLU, get an I.Wing, eat Meat (unless the mammets are actually evasive, which I doubt,) pop Berserk and Cocoon, and go Mighty Strikes -> Armor Break -> Blue magic spam with melee swings in between spells. I'm expecting to obliterate at least one Mammet that way, while taking low damage.

[ValisOfValefor]

Warrior shouldn't be tanking? Thats like saying Dark Knight shouldnt be Damage dealing. Or White Mage not healing, and using banish to cause damage.

I did it quite fine from 10-30 /monk, hell it was just as easy as Paladin.

Shadows really aren't usefull till the later 40s, when enemies really have a large jump in their amount of damage they can do. But thats in my own opinion.

And even then its easy to pop defender, and it makes you take less damamge, by sacrificing your damage.

Mandies in the 25-30s range have to be the best enemies to blood tank ever. And in my preference /monk is better on those, becuase they don't excactly hit that hard (hell at 29 those things where a pityance to me bearly hitting me for anything).

Counter too can be a life saving job trait, which they get at 20.

Then at 30, all 3 subs have something very useful and special about them

/ninja has shadows, and duel military picks (but those are for those who have deep pockets, and these are about the only reason to use duel axes and /ninja at 30 for this reason).
/monk has dodge and a max hp boost. Boost is still good for WS's.
/thief has sneak attack, which will beef up your WS damage by a lot.

I'm in a real large hassle for money for right now, but after I go out and farm more I hope to test out all three jobs, just to see in my own experience.

And for those who have the job open, right now Armando is looking into /blue mage.

I'd actually like to test that too, if I ever get the chance ^^

[Murphie]

I go war/nin using a neckchopper at lvl 26, while people say to sub mnk i dont see anything benifital frop /mnk other than boost which is only nice if you chain boost a WS and counter which is not that useful since war realy shouldent tank, they can in the earlyer levels but its no where as efficient as a nin or pld tank. Plus shadows can be realy usefull like backup tanking for a nin pre 37 or dual tanking with another war.Boost is a lot more useful than that. If a WAR/MNK uses Boost every time it's up (every 15 seconds) and alternates that with their provokes, they will have no trouble glueing the mob to them throughout those early levels. A WAR/MNK can and does (occasionally tank) until at least 30 if not beyond. I know I did, and it worked out really well.

[pearlsea]

Counter will not do enough for you to replace shadows imo, avoiding 6+ attacks is alot more then having an extra gaxe swing or 2 a fight, also i play taru so i prefer not to tank, not that i have a problem with tarus tanking cause i have a 39 pld but as pld i have a whole lot of mp to spam cure, shield to absorb damage and allowed to stack as much VIT and DEF as i possibly can, most war can do is defender which is not fun or effective.

[pearlsea]

Boost is a lot more useful than that. If a WAR/MNK uses Boost every time it's up (every 15 seconds) and alternates that with their provokes, they will have no trouble glueing the mob to them throughout those early levels. A WAR/MNK can and does (occasionally tank) until at least 30 if not beyond. I know I did, and it worked out really well.

Thats what i did in the dunes and most of the time you could not get the mob off me if you tryed, i died a few times because of that >.>; and war is more then cappable then keeping hate without boost.

[Murphie]

Well, that's what White and Red Mages are for. You know, those times that you take damage rather than avoiding it altogether. WAR/MNK can tank. Yes, they will get hit, but it's not the end of the world if that happens.

And it's entirely fun and effective if you do it right. I don't know anything about how you play, but I do know that WAR/MNK main tanking is possible and in many ways better than NIN or WAR/NIN tanking for certain stretches.

edit: But having Boost doesn't hurt. If you're doing good damage because your skills are capped and you are geared adequately, and you are provoking and boosting regularly, you will have a much easier time holding hate than a NIN (who can't really hold hate that great until later) or a PLD (who often doesn't have enough tools just yet to hold hate as well as they could).

Remember, we're talking about pre-30/37. Worlds different from later on. What works for one level stretch doesn't necessarily work for others. That's not really so difficult to grasp.

[dirtyclown]

Counter will not do enough for you to replace shadows imo, avoiding 6+ attacks is alot more then having an extra gaxe swing or 2 a fight, also i play taru so i prefer not to tank, not that i have a problem with tarus tanking cause i have a 39 pld but as pld i have a whole lot of mp to spam cure, shield to absorb damage and allowed to stack as much VIT and DEF as i possibly can, most war can do is defender which is not fun or effective.

Before 37? Counter more than makes up for the loss of shadows if you ask me. You get the added damage from counter coupled with boost +voke spam, and Defender if things start looking bad. It sucks when you have to actually use it, but it really helps with damage reduction. I'd only consider subbing Ninja after getting to 37+ when a better tank comes along that can replace Warrior/Monk. IMO, Warrior/Monk is the best tank in the game pre-37, although I've yet to try Armando's Warrior/Blue Mage idea. It's mostly just personal preference though.

[ValisOfValefor]

Counter will not do enough for you to replace shadows imo, avoiding 6+ attacks is alot more then having an extra gaxe swing or 2 a fight, also i play taru so i prefer not to tank, not that i have a problem with tarus tanking cause i have a 39 pld but as pld i have a whole lot of mp to spam cure, shield to absorb damage and allowed to stack as much VIT and DEF as i possibly can, most war can do is defender which is not fun or effective.

You think counter won't do enough, when enemies in the 25-30 range absolutly kill shadows.

Defender is not worthless, if your the tank of the party in those level ranges you should not really care about your damage. What you should be caring about is tanking the monster, and helping out the party (with break moves). Especially if you are main tanking (which can happen very often, if you aren't staticing)

And using /monk after 20 offers a replacement for the loss of a shield with a great axe, no matter how small it may be.

(and besides most enemies in those level ranges are so weak if your dieing, your healer(s) is at fault)

[pearlsea]

I never ment for my post to be a anti warrior/monk tank post but just saying that /monk is not the low level tanking god your making it out to be. Sure /monk situationaly is better then /ninja but when you have another war/nin or nin/war in your party it its alot more efficient to dual shadow tank it, and even if you dont 60% of pre lvl 30 partys are powerleveled anyways so it dossent make too much of a differance anyways since the pl is tanking it and even if you dont have a pl boost will create more hate then you will even need and counter dosent activate enough to make /nin totaly worthless, id imagen counter is 10%, just like DW1 is 10% delay reduction, both give a 10% attack boost.

Plus /nin is nifty and fun too, while not realy a benefital factor to the party it does make grinding more enjoyable.

EDIT:
You think counter won't do enough, when enemies in the 25-30 range absolutly kill shadows. Mandys right? well actualy they are the most friendly :ichi only tanking monster in the game, while they do double attack(or whatever you call mnks 2 punches) they have a large enough delay to cast shadows up if you time it right which allows you to get more shadows up per fight, but its not like they hit for too much anyways.

[Murphie]

Not everyone thinks that /NIN is nifty and fun though. That's kind of the point. Plus, if you haven't reached 30 yet on another job, you don't really have NIN as an option anyway.

You don't have to join powerlevel parties, and you don't have to join parties where everyone subs NIN in order to avoid taking damage. People have been tanking as WAR/MNK during that range for years and it works rather well. That's what healers are for, for crying out loud.

[ValisOfValefor]

Well pearlsea, pre-30 I really do believe that /mnk really is the tanking god. Besides, if you need a Power level, at 25-30..... well we won't get into what I think about that >.>

Now when I play monk, it doesn't matter how much I hold back, anything with ninja in the job description is gonna lose hate to me. I'm not meaning to sound like I'm gloating, but from 25-30 that was the same sad story every party except for one with a warrior/monk main tank.

And as for counter being 10% i don't really know the proc amount, I'll have to test it when i get more money.

(and note of the after edit) You also forget about Smithies, with goblin rush, double attack, and low delay attacks they usually obliterate most inept tanks and healers at that level. And if mandies don't hit that hard why do you need shadows in the first place?

[Murphie]

I'll never understand why anyone would want to NIN or /NIN tank Mandies. Unless you enjoy just throwing money away it's a pretty frustrating endeavor.

[Caspian]

I'll never understand why anyone would want to NIN or /NIN tank Mandies. Unless you enjoy just throwing money away it's a pretty frustrating endeavor.
Seriously, and yet I was always asked to sub /NIN in that lvl range. (Good since I didn't lvl MNK that far, I know, I know, do as I say not as I do.)
Actually part of the reason I didn't lvl mnk was b/c I knew /nin was preferred for some odd reason. It was harder getting a party as /mnk than /nin, and I wasn't up for lvling a subjob just to be asked to use something else.
Now, I am all for /MNK for quite a while, but the only thing I actually prefer about /nin in the lower levels is that I feel more comfortable using berserk. I wasn't usually main tanking, and I could keep it up and not worry about anything more than the occasional hit getting through the shadows. With /MNK w/ GA, it can be scary to use berserk constantly if you're main tanking. If you're not main tanking and you put up Berserk, well, you soon will be.

[Murphie]

What I would do is use Berserk, use my WS, and then cancel Berserk. It worked out pretty well. I'd do the same thing with Defender from time to time (not with a WS, just in general) if I needed something to grab a bit of hate with, but didn't want to affect my damage.

[Armando]

Don't use Defender just to grab hate, its activation is so small it may as well not be there. Save it for when you actually need its effects. A far better use for it would be: 1) use Berserk 2) WS 3) use Defender to cancel out Berserk's effect 4) get TP again 5) cancel Defender to "reactivate" Berserk 5) WS again. That way you get off 2 berserked WS instead of just one. You can use Warcry for a third if you really want to, but considering the big hate it gets and its pitiful attack bonus, I'd rather save it for an emergency.
Mandys right? well actualy they are the most friendly :ichi only tanking monster in the game, while they do double attack(or whatever you call mnks 2 punches) they have a large enough delay to cast shadows up if you time it right which allows you to get more shadows up per fight, but its not like they hit for too much anyways.Doesn't change the fact that they still hit at a faster rate than normal mobs. They'll strip more shadows in the same ammount of time, and normal mobs already strip off shadows quickly enough to make Ichi tanking an iffy concept to begin with. Also, it's still possible to recast on normal mobs. The timing is far more strict but it's still entirely possible (especially if you take Slow into account.) MNKs in general are just bad mobs to try to blink tank.

[Murphie]

I wasn't honestly sure how much hate it gave, but when the chips are down, I'll pull out any tool that I have. Including Defender.

Kind of a moot point for me at least, since my WAR days are long over. The important point in my post was how I used Berserk.

[Thrasher]

What I would do is use Berserk, use my WS, and then cancel Berserk. It worked out pretty well. I'd do the same thing with Defender from time to time (not with a WS, just in general) if I needed something to grab a bit of hate with, but didn't want to affect my damage.
Yes this is also how I used Berserk when I was main tanking. If I was sub tanking when I needed to pull emnity for more then a few seconds I always took Berserk down and used Defender. I think where people get this war/nin pwnz all BS is partly due to inproper use of Berserk, Defender and a large % of new players level warror as there first class so there skills are slightly lacking.

[Celeal]

Seriously, and yet I was always asked to sub /NIN in that lvl range. (Good since I didn't lvl MNK that far, I know, I know, do as I say not as I do.)
Actually part of the reason I didn't lvl mnk was b/c I knew /nin was preferred for some odd reason. It was harder getting a party as /mnk than /nin, and I wasn't up for lvling a subjob just to be asked to use something else.
Now, I am all for /MNK for quite a while, but the only thing I actually prefer about /nin in the lower levels is that I feel more comfortable using berserk. I wasn't usually main tanking, and I could keep it up and not worry about anything more than the occasional hit getting through the shadows. With /MNK w/ GA, it can be scary to use berserk constantly if you're main tanking. If you're not main tanking and you put up Berserk, well, you soon will be.

That is the reason why ppl use war/mnk in the old days. Provoke -> Boost -> Boost -> Porvoke -> Boost.... using Great Axe, have counter, WS, Beserk and Defender as additional hate too, the DD in the rest of the party can go all out, Skillchain and MB and kill the mob very efficiently.

When geared correctly, in the Jungles WAR/MNK w/ G.Axe is Tank + DD at the same time. A war/mnk tank party require proper debuff on the mob (slow, paralyze, bio...), a healer that knows how to spend and conserve his mp (regen, bar-spells, know when to sit for mp during the battle...), DD that actually can deal damage (not the gimp ones, SC + MB is the norm). Meanwhile DD can truly unleash on the mob while war/mnk holding hate and dealing damage at the same time. This kind of party requires teamwork, and everyone in the party trust each other, support each other, doing their jobs.

I guess today, the art of war/mnk tank is lost... the art of traditional party setup is fading out...

[IfritnoItazura]

I guess today, the art of war/mnk tank is lost... the art of traditional party setup is fading out...

Not sure about other servers, but on Ifrit, you can still find plenty of WAR/MNK's in the lower levels. However, they seem to prefer the sword and shield combination, for some odd reason. >_> I can only recall one tanking WAR/MNK with great axe (Twicer) in the jungles within the last few months...

[Murphie]

Not sure about other servers, but on Ifrit, you can still find plenty of WAR/MNK's in the lower levels. However, they seem to prefer the sword and shield combination, for some odd reason. >_> I can only recall one tanking WAR/MNK with great axe (Twicer) in the jungles within the last few months...I blame SE for this. Heck, I was a Sword/Shield WAR until 30 on my first character. I just didn't know any better.

(Onion Axe) (Can I have it?)

[Lmnop]

I think this will be the first time I've ever said anything *gasp* counter Armando's beliefs.

I agree with Pearlsea about the mandies. As nin/war tanking them, what I would do is engage mob with fresh shadows and then: mandy takes 2 shadows >> mandy takes 1 shadow and hits. Since I had around a 1/5 or 1/6 chance of evading/parrying, I often would just lose 3 shadows and not take any damage. The great thing about this is that by taking one hit, I'm making sure my healer is earning his exp. :D It may be easy healing for him/her, but at least they're doing what they're supposed to do. At any rate, right as the 2nd attack round is starting I mash the Shadow macro and get shadows up for the next couple attack rounds. Also, the large attack rounds (close to 7 second delay with slow, I think) mean that when my shadows go down again, my shadow recast timer is closer to being ready.

In practice, I often would miss my window for macro mashing and wait for the next attack round, thus taking up to 3 consecutive hits before putting shadows back up. This doesn't hurt since up 'til 29, nin/war technically has better defense than a non-shield-using Warrior (same defense bonus, higher VIT growth, and same Chainmail set) and as detailed above, it keeps my healer awake. Seriously, that's 60 points of damage tops from those 3 swings. That's... stupid pitiful.

-----------------------------------------

With all that said, nin/war is a better tank than a war/nin for pretty much the entirety of the first 60 levels of the game. As of 30, damage output isn't too far off, except that a nin/war will keep shadows up much longer due to certain A ranked skills. And even with that said, keeping hate against mandies wasn't incredibly easy. I always kept them off the healers, but dragoons made my life miserable.

I believe there is no better tank than a war/mnk pre-37. That is opinion.

I know that war/mnk will generate the more hate than pld or nin pre-37. I'd like to think that's a fact, not an opinion. Perfect for early level manaburn and Thf-heavy parties (4x thf, 1 war, 1 whm between levels 15 and 30 is pretty fun).

[Armando]

XD See, this is why I don't like people saying "listen to Armando!" I CAN be wrong. While I still don't like the idea of blink tanking mandies (faster attacks PLUS counters, which I forgot to mention...granted, they'll counter you at a slower rate when using Great Axe, but meh, it's still a guaranteed shadow lost.) Plus, since they do more hits over time than the average mob, that means that many more counters when going /MNK. Then again, the fights do tend to drag on pretty damned long against those little sonsabitches, so I could easily see someone blinking off 12 hits.
I know that war/mnk will generate the more hate than pld or nin pre-37. I'd like to think that's a fact, not an opinion.Bah, go ahead and call it a fact. The only one of the two that has the same hate potential pre-37 is PLD, but in practice they can't do it without using more MP than they should.

You know what would've been fun as hell? WAR/RNG in the Jungles pre-patch.

[Lmnop]

XD See, this is why I don't like people saying "listen to Armando!"
Does it frighten you more that people would mindlessly follow whatever you say, or that I actually pay attention to everything you write and make sure it's right* and still agree with almost everything you type?

You know what would've been fun as hell? WAR/RNG in the Jungles pre-patch. I always wanted to do this. In fact, I still think it'd be fun, but just a lot harder. Xbow doesn't suffer too much accuracy-wise from being in the melee so Holy bolts would still be damn effective and you could use it to open Distortion for THFs while still using Greataxe. The biggest problem would be that even with the world's greatest R.acc gear, you'd still need sushi. This also has me thinking a line of thought that was probably looked at years ago, but I wanna look at it again: changing weapons during WS. In this case: /ws "Piercing Arrow" and then on the next line: /equip main "Archer's Knife". Basically, I'm thinking of Maneater logic (the latent activates on Weapon Skill because tp already reset to 0, yet you gain the stat boosts to the WS itself). This is a really dumb idea now that I think about it but I'm not going to delete this. Oh well, it'd be interesting if it'd work for an extra +10 r. acc on WS.

*not the math. I usually check your math for your first example and then just skim your numbers. :P Unlike you, I'm not a math teacher (bwuahahahahahahaha).