lvl 60+ DRK/SAM and Absorb-TP

[Celeal]

I am just wondering with Absorb-TP, would DRK/SAM at level 60 in exp. parties works?

On paper, it looks good:

Absorb-TP once per minute. Since Absorb-TP is a spell, the /recast timer can be reduced by Haste.

Mediate (60 TP) every 3 minutes.

lvl 60+ DRK/SAM function like a SAM in exp. party?

With 1 Skillchain partner, DRK/SAM can do 1 SC and solo WS once per fight (or every 2 fight). If the skillchain partner is a crazy TP-machine, bring it on! :cool:

With 2 Skillchain partner, with Absorb-TP and Mediate, maybe DRK/SAM can create 2 seperate SC per fight? With Haste, Absorb-TP timer can be reduced.:evil:

Any thought about it?

[Zamphire]

I don't see why it wouldn't work, except Absorb-TP doesn't always work if your off on the timing, but yea, it could work.

[Aeni]

It would work, but it would be overly redundant. Here's why:

Meditate is on a 1 minute timer.
Abs-TP is also on a 1 minute timer.
Battles end before the recast timer is ready for any of the two.

Your skillchain partner may not have any of these abilities/spells.

Thus you can get 100% TP in 5 seconds. ... But you'll still have to wait for your partner.

So, rather being overly redundant and waste vast potential, you should just sub WAR or THF and use Abs-TP.

[Celeal]

Meditate is a 3 minute timer. With SAM as main job, Meditate returns 100 TP (w/o AF head). With SAM as subjob, Meditate only returns 60 TP. (If Mediate is running on a 1 minute timer, then I won't have a problem SC with those TP monster like war/nin + mnk/war combo my my last party as a sam/war...)

I don't thing it is redundant. Absorb-TP is a spell, so it can be resisted. In order for Absorb-TP to work, the mob needs to have TP for absorb. I think for time like opening of the fight or after the mob used a TP move is not good time for Absorb-TP.

I think Mediate can be used as a backup when Absorb-TP is resisted, or timer is not ready, or mp is running low.

[Lmnop]

posts from YESTERDAY?!?! The site was up YESTERDAY??

...sorry.

Drk/Sam was "potent" before ABS-TP. People didn't use it because it gets you killed too quickly, I had thought. Obviously, w/out Double attack/Berserk, your DoT suffers, but not a whole lot. And Third Eye cannot compete with Trick Attack. You're looking at a sort of middle ground, I guess. Except not really, because that extra WS will get you more hate than you'd get from the higher DoT of WAR so yea.. my thoughts are that it'd be suicide.

See, this is why Scythe shoulda got a "Drain" WS.

[Celeal]

:biggrin: posts from YESTERDAY?!?! The site was up YESTERDAY??

...sorry.

Drk/Sam was "potent" before ABS-TP. People didn't use it because it gets you killed too quickly, I had thought. Obviously, w/out Double attack/Berserk, your DoT suffers, but not a whole lot. And Third Eye cannot compete with Trick Attack. You're looking at a sort of middle ground, I guess. Except not really, because that extra WS will get you more hate than you'd get from the higher DoT of WAR so yea.. my thoughts are that it'd be suicide.

See, this is why Scythe shoulda got a "Drain" WS.

If hate is an issue, then I agree with you. Trick Attack 4TW :thumbsup:

I just came up with a party setup that lvl 60+ DRK/SAM and Absorb-TP may work. If in theory it does not work, we can always go back to drk/war or drk/thf. We have nothing to lose :)

Let say a lvl 60 party have a DRK/SAM and a THF:
1. Skillchain (Distortion) at beginning: Vorpal Scythe -> Trick Attack (Assassin or SATA, depends on situation) + Dancing Edge on the tank.
2. With Absorb-TP and Mediate, DRK/SAM can solo Guillotine with his extra TP.

With THF closing Distortion on the tank, hate should be solid. I know Vorpal Scythe sucks compare to Guillotine. However, with the solid hate on tank, and extra TP from Absorb-TP + Mediate, DRK/SAM should be able to solo Guillotine without problem. In this setup, BLM (if present) can MB the Distortion (one happy BLM), DRK can use his Guillotine (one happy DRK), THF maybe able to solo Sneak Attack + Dancing Edge (more damage, kuppo ^o^), solid hate on tank (yes, please). The mob dies faster and everyone in the party is happy :biggrin:

THF is a common in party, and this kind of party setup should be acceptable (it is not one of those very weird party setup). Compare to this with DRK/WAR or DRK/THF, any thought ^^?

And once again, if hate is an issue and the tank needs help, be flexible and DRK/THF.

[Aeni]

:biggrin:

If hate is an issue, then I agree with you. Trick Attack 4TW :thumbsup:

I still think DRK/DRG pwnz. Moreso with Abs-TP.

[Lmnop]

that's a pretty good layout. Normally, Dark Knights don't like Thieves since it means using the crappy WSs, but with that much tp, it's an easy enough task to sack a WS for Vorpal and still be soloing Guillo, as you stated.

This was basically possible pre ABS-TP, as I was talking about earlier and it being suicidal. What I hadn't thought of, though, was Assassin. Just that trait really made this combo viable with a thief in the party. Previously, no one would wanna trust you to grab hate w/out voke, but now they don't need it so Ha! I ramble redundantly, repeatedly.

Unfortunately, I still don't see the advantage of drk/drg pre-70. No high jump @60 so you basically have 5% haste and a subpar Double Attack.

So (in my mind, 'til someone gives me more info) drk/sam seems viable 60-66*, and drk/drg is proven to be wonderful 70+.

*I think drk/sam could also be interesting 71+ with a Samurai/thf in the party (assuming you don't mind using a Greatsword). Spinning Slash >> Kasha for Light and given that they will actually keep up in tp... you may not get a chance to solo WSs. This situation is hairy since there's still no voke, but you have a WS ready and high-hate magic to compensate.

[tdh]

I'm in a static with a THF and a PLD. I really hate Vorpal Scythe. I've always hated it, but it is getting better. It won't do Guillotine-esque damage, but it's doing much better and helps the THF close some decent damage for hate.

With Absorb-TP I can how double her TP output. Depending on when I hit 100%, I may save TP for the start of the next fight, or pop of a Guillotine ever 3rd party or so.

I have considered subing SAM and invite a second DD I can Skillchain with. Of course that then means we have to find a RDM who can keep up with all the Refreshes and Main Heal - which can be problematic sometimes. (Recently had a RDM w/ a V. Cloak and a BRD say they couldn't keep up with Refresh and Main Heal. What's up with these lazy RDMs? I've done it quite a number of times from Lv.41 to 75 with no problem. I have no V. Cloak, or desire for one!) But PLD, DRK, THF, WAR, BLM, RDM would probably do well, just have to be real picky about your camps. Finding TP Friendly Mobs.

With a DRK and THF, we're already running into mobs who can Spam their TP ever 5 seconds. Imagine adding a WAR to that mix? Skillchains could destroy mobs, just means no Goblins, (DRK with the help of a BLM can't Stun that many Gobby Bombs.) Crawlers will spam Cocoon, Puks will knock back ever 2 seconds, and no telling how bruised that PLD's going to be!

As DRKs we all like seeing the big numbers. 125+dmg a swing and 1k Guillotines, but if we can Skillchain more often, and mages can blow a mob up, I'm all down for more EXP faster.

[Aeni]

I'm in a static with a THF and a PLD. I really hate Vorpal Scythe. I've always hated it, but it is getting better. It won't do Guillotine-esque damage, but it's doing much better and helps the THF close some decent damage for hate.

If you're in a static, make the THF sub RNG to help things out, hmm? Seriously, I hate it when people have to stay in that preconceived notion rut. She doesn't need to sub NIN if she's in a static. That's the advantage of a static. You can sub what you want as long as the party can work together.

Slugshot/Sidewinder > Crescent Moon/Hard Slash = Distortion
Slugshot/Sidewinder > Guillotine = Induration

She can make up for the "supposed" lack of dps from dual wield (dagger dps ftl) by spamming bolts/arrows. I did this a couple times with p/u JP PTs. You have a PLD, so why do you need SATA (Aside from opening SATA which THF can easily do) THF can solo SA in between when timer is up.

[Lmnop]

with every piece of +AGI and +R.acc barring Peacock Charm (2 macros worth of gear switching), my thf still only hit with bolts around 50-70% of the time. That was up to 45. 60+, yea that'd be hard. Granted, I'm elvaan, but I'm not gonna blame race. And I prolly wasn't perfect on my RNG nerf positioning, but I don't use windower and I hate plug-ins (GAME BREAKERS!!!) so I'll never know for sure. Also, even sidewinder >> whateverDRKWS + SC prolly won't outdamage what you'd get just from SA Dancing Edge + SC... that's completely ignoring the damage of Vorpal Scythe.

All that's fluff though, the real reason I don't like the idea is just that I can't expect people to level Marksmanship. It's F'n hard when you can't even buy bronze bolts to skill up with. I still haven't even gotten it close to cap for my WAR (130ish out of 192ish) and I skill up every chance I get with the cheapy bolts.

I do have a friend whose about 60ish thf with capped archery. She does some pretty nice Sidewinders... especially in that Worms Assault. o.o So yea, those people exist. But then, /rng is the only sub she has fully leveled so of course she does it right.

Tdh: maybe I missed something... what's so high tp-gain about a drk/pld/thf combo? Doesn't seem any worse than 3x ridill WARs. >.>

[Standablaze]

So it would be fair to say SAM is worth lvling as a sub again?

I've recently hit 61 and find /THF to be annoying. Its great being able to SATA a Guillotine and not get hit, but really, /WAR blows it out of the water for everything else, including TP gain. Its shocking how much Double attack and Berserk help.

Tonight we had someone in our party that could show how much damage we done per fight. My damage was significantly higher overall with /WAR sub, which I changed too midway through the party.

I'm going to level SAM and check it out when I level with my PLD mate again, I dont trust other tanks and hes taken a break from PLD for a short time :/

I've found Abs-TP to work best when the mob is around 80% HP (yeh, windower), and I can regularly get back about 50%+ TP a go. This is just before the mob is ready to use its first TP move usually. With that and a few strikes it is very easy to get DRK to 100% TP, just in time as the PLD gets full hate. IF a SAM/THF or THF can keep up (the sam would be able too), a DRK/SAM could open, and the other close using SATA (or TA/Assassin) for hate. This would also keep in mind that the PLD would have some decent hate built up. After that, a meditate from the DRK and some more TP building, and another WS from the second person could be what ends the fight. Thats 2 SCs a fight, not including the BLM MB.

But this all goes on theory, and theory rarely works out. I assume DRK/SAM would be a lot more useful when TP spamming? You will take hate, but with enough melee it could balance out? WARs, RNGs, and SAMs can easily keep up with a DRKs damage, if not do more.

[Celeal]

Out of those "active" fast TP gain abilities (excluding passive ability/trait like Double Attack or Trick Attack), Absorb-TP has lowest /recast timer, which is 1 minute. Unlike TP-gain ability like Mediate, Barrage, Jump(s)... Absorb-TP is a spell, its /recast timer can be lower by Haste. Even with fully merrit Mediate + SAM AF head at end game, Absorb-TP with Haste spell + full Haste gear setup may reach the same TP-gain or even better in theory.

TP is always useful for melee DD. A melee DD will never say you have too much TP ^^; The more and faster gain is better XD

On paper, lvl 60+ DRK/SAM and Absorb-TP looks good. The only thing that it needs is to find a smart way to put it into practice.

[tdh]

If you're in a static, make the THF sub RNG to help things out, hmm? Seriously, I hate it when people have to stay in that preconceived notion rut. She doesn't need to sub NIN if she's in a static. That's the advantage of a static. You can sub what you want as long as the party can work together.
Slugshot/Sidewinder > Crescent Moon/Hard Slash = Distortion
Slugshot/Sidewinder > Guillotine = Induration
She can make up for the "supposed" lack of dps from dual wield (dagger dps ftl) by spamming bolts/arrows. I did this a couple times with p/u JP PTs. You have a PLD, so why do you need SATA (Aside from opening SATA which THF can easily do) THF can solo SA in between when timer is up.This never occured to me, but I doubt would work with me involved. I'm already destroying her in TP gain, have been since I could finally equip that 4.75M Hauby I bought, and then Absorb-TP was added.

PLD in the static was stingy on hate. There were times I was trying to turn the mob and couldn't for the life of me, then times when SATA did low damage and I could pull hate with just basic melee damage. I'd get eaten for sure if she wasn't closing for 600dmg+.

tdh: maybe I missed something... what's so high tp-gain about a drk/pld/thf combo? Doesn't seem any worse than 3x ridill WARs. >.>It's not the combo of the three jobs, I was merely stating that currently, as DRK/WAR, I generate enough TP to participate in a Skillchain once a fight, and have enough TP to solo a Guillotine every 3rd fight. At one point I was Skillchaining with a THF (Vorpal Suck > Dancing Edge) and a WAR (Guillotine > Raging Rush) as /WAR - keeping up with both of them. Sadly the WAR was very lacking, so my 1k+ Guillotines kept hate glued to me after his 350dmg SATA Raging Rush.

But with out the /SAM (which I have as an option at SAM45) sub I can still pop off Guillotine quite often and keep up with a Skillchain. I <3 the Absorb-TP.

[raidenn]

At 60 I guess you must be exping on colibris and puks. Cant remember if the mobs last long enough for you to make a skillchain with someone. But what the hey, try it out.

[Celeal]

Speaking about Colibris, does anyone know which spells is not going to be reflected?

If DRK cast Absorb-TP on Colibris, what happens? Will the Abosrb-TP be relfected? Let say the Abosrb-TP is reflected and bounced to someone (PLD or NIN or anyone that is on the top of hate list), will TP be absorbed back to DRK, or the Colibris, or no effect O.o?

[tdh]

tdh: maybe I missed something... what's so high tp-gain about a drk/pld/thf combo? Doesn't seem any worse than 3x ridill WARs. >.>It was late when I responded to this last night, and I didn't catch your actual meaning. lol

Meanwhile 3 Ridill WARs would feed a mob a ton of TP, PLD, DRK, THF set up has Triple Attack, 2 people with Double Attack, and a Scythe that feeds mobs ~17%TP a hit. So if I Double Attack the mob gets ~34% TP, THF/NIN could Triple Attack back to back and let's say her Acc is 80% so, so that's roughly 30 to 35% TP to the mob. So in one possible volley, the THF and DRK/WAR could feed a mob 70% TP. So right off the bat the damn Puk has 70% TP not counting PLD's damage or TP gained from magic damage.

None of that includes a Skillchain. Dancing Edge is 4 or 5 hits? Every 3rd fight a Guillotine? I seem to Double Attack a lot during Guillotine (100% Acc on Guillotine is 17%TP w/ Vassago's. I've had a handful of 19% returns.), so that's anywhere from 35% (Just 2 hits land.) to 85% (All 4 hits and 1 Double Attack proc.) TP fed to the Puk just from Guillotine. Here come the Aoe Flash, which I hate! But I hate nothing more in my life right now than that damn knock back move they do.

[Aeni]

with every piece of +AGI and +R.acc barring Peacock Charm (2 macros worth of gear switching), my thf still only hit with bolts around 50-70% of the time.

Stop right there. You know that xbows have a very low delay (work like daggers, they do) So when I say spam, that's what I meant.

Here's how you pull as a THF. No, don't leave the pulling to the PLD or NIN. :eek: And you really don't need a RNG if you already have a THF. Well, if you have a THF that's not lazy.

THF >> (Sleep Bolt) >> Roots the mob.
THF >> (Sleep Bolt) >> TP + Roots the mob.
THF >> (Acid Bolt) >> TP + Def Down
THF >> (Sleep Bolt) >> TP + Roots the mob.
Moves a few paces back
THF >> (Any Bolt) >> Pulls mob.

In this scenario, the JP THF in my party always had near 100% TP at the onset (After initial SATA on tank) By the time I have TP, she's already done a DE (Safe to do with a pally) and sitting on another 150% when I have guillotine ready to go. Sometimes, this is so overkill for areas where you're VT chaining.