spells not having very much effect

[murz]

I am very new to blm, I am currently at lvl 16 partying in dunes.

Sometimes, when fighting mobs for some reason my spells seem to just go down in effect, fire (which usually does 25-50 dmg) all the sudden is doing like 6 dmg. And it usually happens with my other spells too.

Is it something that I am doing? I thought maybe i was casting spells too quickly, but waiting doesnt usually fix it.

Is there any special technique to keeping your effectiveness up? I know things like melon pie improve int, but you should be able to do more than 6 dmg without a pie, right?

[Omnitank]

Don't cast the same spell on the same mob again and again. Change them up a bit. Like cast Fire, throw in some enfeebles, then cast a wind or Ice.

[Deeke]

What you're seeing is normal. It's that pain in a BLM's arse known as Resistance.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php/Resist



Briefly, to reduce Resistance/increase Accuracy (same thing really):


Maximise your INT (or MND if you find yourself responsible for Dia, Paralyze, Slow... >.<)

Research what Elements the EXP area's mobs are weak to. (Can't stress this one enough.)

Similarly, but less frequent, research any immunities (don't ever bother casting Water on a
Pug..(>.o) )

Don't cast Fire on Watersday. (Do cast Fire on Firesday.^^)

Note any active Weather.

Use Elemental Weaknesses provided by BRDs, etc. to your advantage.

Make use of Elemental Seal.

And use Magic Bursts wherever possible, on both Nukes and Enfeebles.

[Icemage]

Don't cast the same spell on the same mob again and again. Change them up a bit. Like cast Fire, throw in some enfeebles, then cast a wind or Ice.

This doesn't help. See Deeke's post above for techniques to minimize Resistance.


Icemage

[Gyfford]

Fire on a water mob is just a bit better than water on a water mob :/

Fire is weak to water, crabs are water based. *edit*[Your]*edit* resist rate will be higher on that. If you use lightning you'll land more consistant (but you don't have it yet).

Black mage is all about learning your enemies weakness and making him eat it. You can look at the Alla Beast.... by area. Get a idea where your next leveling is going to take place (Ex: after dunes you will more than likely hit Qufim, Look up the mobs in Qufim - pretty much the same crab/fish, a few worms and giants. So learn the worms and giants weakness, and use it.)

Changing spells does not work. You need to keep chipping at the mobs weakness, not change to a 'non weakness' spell. In the dunes I remember casting a lot of wind, never water unless vs fly or gobbies. Fish and crab = higher resist.

*edit* crabs also have that shell move, which will increase your resist / lower damage rate:worry:

[Icemage]

Fire on a water mob is just a bit better than water on a water mob :/

Fire is weak to water, crabs are water based. You're resist rate will be higher on that. If you use lightning you'll land more consistant (but you don't have it yet).

Actually crabs are strong against water, weak against ice and lightning, and neutral to everything else. Fire is no more or less effective than Aero against them other than base damage.


Icemage

[Gyfford]

Actually crabs are strong against water, weak against ice and lightning, and neutral to everything else. Fire is no more or less effective than Aero against them other than base damage.

tell me you joking

So how does earth based Kirin resist almost every stun (thunder) and thunder spell? Because he's earth based > than lightning, also why would we use our wind spells vs kirin when our best spell is thunder IV? Cause earth based kirin, will restist you so much it's not worth it.

You can also look at our bar- spells. Barfira element is what? Oh yeah water.:eek:

As barthunda is earth based.

[Icemage]

tell me you joking

So how does earth based Kirin resist almost every stun (thunder) and thunder spell? Because he's earth based > than lightning, also why would we use our wind spells vs kirin when our best spell is thunder IV? Cause earth based kirin, will restist you so much it's not worth it.

You can also look at our bar- spells. Barfira element is what? Oh yeah water.:eek:

As barthunda is earth based.

There's a tendency for enemies to be weak to elements, but it's not consistent, and you shouldn't infer weaknesses from strengths and vice versa.

Bombs are fire based and weak to fire.

Scorpions are earth based but are weak to light and fire.

Aquans (Pugils, Sea Monks, Crabs) are all strong against water and weak to ice and lightning.

Kirin is strong to earth and weak against wind. He's neutral to lightning, but resistant to the Stun spell (explicitly), resistant to Silence (but not other wind magics). Both of the spell resistances do not correlate to Kirin's elemental resistance.

Behemoth/King Behemoth, Adamantoise/Aspidochelone, and Fafnir/Nidhogg are all immune to Stun, but only Aspidochelone has any significant resistance to lightning. Adamantoise and Aspidochelone are both water-based, but they're also completely immune to both Slow and Elegy.


Icemage

[Gyfford]

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=3;mid=115583584412087831;page=1#115 584444990728816

I started a thread on Alla, still getting responces in. This is by no means a pissing contest. I never change my way of thinking from what 1 person says... I need a general consenus from the majority. I am always looking to better myself in job / knowledge.

Yeah I knew that about the bombs (which I don't know what SE was thinking making bomb weak to fire XD ), you would think water... but no.

[Icemage]

Translate this page via Google or Babelfish and you'll see the base resistances for all basic monster types.
http://ff11.s33.xrea.com/

Bear in mind that NM versions of monsters can have vastly different resistances from their source monster families.


Icemage

[Balfree]

bombs are weak to fire, in the same sense that when they explode they also die, they arent made of fire, thus not weak to water element, they are simply volatile and prone to explode, thus when you burn them they get damaged

think of a hot hot sphere of metal, inside theres hot fire, but not outside, if you toss water at it, the water just fizzles into vapor, because the surface is hot, but if you burn it, it becomes even hotter and prone to blow up

on a crab, fire does just the same in terms of resistance and base damage as wind for example, because the crab does have a shell, its not mushy outside, know what i mean? so its not weak to that particular element

its these little details that i love about ffxi >:)

[Hamlet]

That post icemage has listed has crabs listed as water-based (and thus strong to water, I'm assuming), and weak to ice and lightning. Fire seems to be noted as neutral.

[neighbortaru]

'bout the same info in english:
http://www015.upp.so-net.ne.jp/reaver/monster.html

[Icemage]

That post icemage has listed has crabs listed as water-based (and thus strong to water, I'm assuming), and weak to ice and lightning. Fire seems to be noted as neutral.

Ask any BLM who has survived the 50s and they'll tell you that crabs are definitely weak to ice magic, since that's almost exclusively what you level on in that level range, from Kuftal to Teriggan to Gustav.

More specifically, that page indicates that crabs have low resistance to ice and lightning, and are 50% resistant to water effects.


Icemage

[Gyfford]

Those are some nice sites. The one I could read says this in the key: ◎：Ok ○：Weakness □：Resistant △：10%↓ ▲：25%↓ ×：50%↓ XX：75%↓ ？：Unknown ☆：, but I did not see any mob that had 10%, 25%, etc.

I'll hit B. tree by Ramuth zone tonight, there are a few shells in the tunnel and easy zone spot. Everything I've seen ever, has mentioned what the mob is based on, do don't cast those spells on it. I've seen great examples when using demonic pugs vs warlocks. He cast flood on my fish for a whooping 50 damage.

Unfortunatly, I don't recall if he ever fire IV or w/e on it.

Avatars would be another example yes? No thunder on Titan? No water on ramuth? etc. It just seems to me that no one tested if fire on a water mob is just Neutral... or if it'll get resisted a bit more.

So far ffxi as been pretty constant with the elemental everything.
-In crafting, you craft with the current day xtal, you're more likely to HQ or not crit. break your synth. If you synth on the day the xtal is weak to, you got a much better shot at breaking the synth.

-Our bar- spells are the element that the bar- spell is strong vs.

-Our staffs: Fire staff gives Ice resistance, etc.

-Our spells hit harder when using them on the elemental day (Fire on Fireday)

-Avatars are much harder on their elemental day, then on a off day, and weaker (Yes.. no test on weaker, just an observation) on the day they're weak to.

I'm just saying why chance the OP question. Sure when you get thunder, you really don't need to worry about this so much. I however will not cast fire on a aqua mob, I exploit their weakness (as everyone else does).

[neighbortaru]

it was tested Gyfford, that's where Vanadiel Monster gets their stats from.

[Gyfford]

it was tested Gyfford, that's where Vanadiel Monster gets their stats from.
{Where?} It's tested that water on water mobs sucks, so they're water based. I've seen nothing about strenghts. Please point it out, and WFT is the shameless behaviour crap. Man there are karmah hoes all over I guess (I thought that was only alla.)

I swear people can't ask questions w/o getting rated down. Grow up.

[Icemage]

Those are some nice sites. The one I could read says this in the key: ◎：Ok ○：Weakness □：Resistant △：10%↓ ▲：25%↓ ×：50%↓ XX：75%↓ ？：Unknown ☆：, but I did not see any mob that had 10%, 25%, etc.

Some enemies (particularly NMs) have those oddball resistances, but most of the normal monsters go by the standard amounts.


I'll hit B. tree by Ramuth zone tonight, there are a few shells in the tunnel and easy zone spot. Everything I've seen ever, has mentioned what the mob is based on, do don't cast those spells on it. I've seen great examples when using demonic pugs vs warlocks. He cast flood on my fish for a whooping 50 damage.

Unfortunatly, I don't recall if he ever fire IV or w/e on it.

It just so happens that elemental resistances "usually" dovetail to elements that the monsters are dominant in, but it's by no means a hard and fast rule. Black mages in particular need to be intimately familiar with the resistances of their targets in order to avoid wasting MP.

Mandragora are a good example of this. They're weak to five different elements (fire, ice, wind, thunder, and darkness), which makes them extremely vulnerable to black mages.


Avatars would be another example yes? No thunder on Titan? No water on ramuth? etc. It just seems to me that no one tested if fire on a water mob is just Neutral... or if it'll get resisted a bit more.


Avatars are the most elementally aligned creatures in the game, so correct, lightning effects of all types (Thunder, Shock, Stun) will not work against Titan, nor will Earth effects. This is abusable in a number of situations (for instance, CoP 4-1 against Ouryu, you can have 2-3 summoners fight Ouryu with Garuda - they'll take minimal damage from most of Ouryu's special attacks since he uses mostly Earth attacks).


So far ffxi as been pretty constant with the elemental everything.
-In crafting, you craft with the current day xtal, you're more likely to HQ or not crit. break your synth. If you synth on the day the xtal is weak to, you got a much better shot at breaking the synth.

-Our bar- spells are the element that the bar- spell is strong vs.

-Our staffs: Fire staff gives Ice resistance, etc.

-Our spells hit harder when using them on the elemental day (Fire on Fireday)

-Avatars are much harder on their elemental day, then on a off day, and weaker (Yes.. no test on weaker, just an observation) on the day they're weak to.

I'm just saying why chance the OP question. Sure when you get thunder, you really don't need to worry about this so much. I however will not cast fire on a aqua mob, I exploit their weakness (as everyone else does).

You should always exploit elemental weaknesses when they're available - the trick is to remember what enemies are weak to. The elemental tendencies are a good reminder in most cases, but they're not consistent, and you should never assume that particular enemies follow similar patterns simply because of their alignment.

For instance, Lamia type enemies in ToAU are strongly associated with water - most of their attacks are water-based, and they're very resistant to water magic. However, they're not actually weak to any element, so Thunder magic isn't any more potent against them than any other type, aside from base damage.


Icemage

[neighbortaru]

{Where?} It's tested that water on water mobs sucks, so they're water based. I've seen nothing about strenghts.are you looking at this one (same as vanadiel monsters, but in english)? http://www015.upp.so-net.ne.jp/reaver/monster.html
notice how some of the mobs have 'x' on the Element affinity coloumn? there's your 50% resistance "strength."

Please point it out, and WFT is the shameless behaviour crap. Man there are karmah hoes all over I guess (I thought that was only alla.)

I swear people can't ask questions w/o getting rated down. Grow up.erm, nothing to do with me dude. besides, rep amounts to nothing here but being easier to steal gil from :P

[Corthaemus]

Murz: At level 16 you get the spell Shock. You will learn to love this spell, as well as Burn(obtained at level 24). These two spells will help immensely with your resists, and damage capacity. Also, be sure to keep your elemental skill capped.

[neighbortaru]

Shock won't have anything to do with your elemental resists, it's MND-.

Burn, however, will help.

[Gyfford]

Either it's my internet explorer, or I'm just dumb. I can't see anywhere on that actual chart that says 25%,50%(Up/Down) anywhere. I see off to the right side where it has magic resistant (general) 25%

But no where under any of the "elements" <-- quote cause I think that's what the different colors are representing. I would also think if they had a resistance (like the key says) it would be posted in there.

Well as i stated on Alla, I'll do some naked nuking of shells in B. tree tonight. Naked so that no +elemental equipment can help me (only my merited +elemental). I'll do prolly 10 nukes per spell per day.I'll note the day, and spell, and since the crab should not despawn it'll be fairly consistant.

10 fire
10 thunder
10 water (yay>.>) <--can't wait to do 1 damage to him.
Then 10 of the each 'neutral' spells (and not the spell which day it is at the time of testing)

I'll post back here and let you know.. as well as alla. If you can think of suggestions or a better way to test this plz share.

[neighbortaru]

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9098/quickpicmh2.th.gif (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quickpicmh2.gif)
that help? ;)

[Macht]

You know if anything if crabs are water base then they should be very resistant to Fire, Water should be neutral, Thunder should be a High weakness, and Ice should be a Low Weakness, the rest neutral.

Yes, the game follows a patter but it also has a double pattern.

Fire->Ice->Wind->Earth->Thunder->Water->Fire


Fire Base (High Weak, Low Weak, High Resistance
Fire->Ice->Wind->Earth->Thunder->Water->Fire

Ice Base (High Weak, Low Weak, High Resistance
Fire->Ice->Wind->Earth->Thunder->Water->Fire

Wind Base (High Weak, Low Weak, High Resistance
Fire->Ice->Wind->Earth->Thunder->Water->Fire

Earth Base (High Weak, Low Weak, High Resistance
Fire->Ice->Wind->Earth->Thunder->Water>Fire

See the pattern? It's the exactly secondary pattern that many items possess and has associations to the beasts as well. Even the pattern of the elements fit to the 9 initial beasts.

The 4 group (Sorry forgetting that beast chart) element wise goes:
Wind->Thunder->Fire->Wind

The 3 group goes:
Water->Ice->Earth

So there is a Tier 1 element weakness pattern, but also a Tier 2 element weakness pattern that more hidden away. With the more recent gear seems to suggest that a Tier 3 might exist, the Tier 3 probably has associations to the CoP mobs.

Basically for example a Crab the 2nd Tier elements suggest that it should be resistant to Fire, neutral to water, very weak to Thunder, and second weakness being Ice. If not Neutral to water then at least a low resistance.

EDIT:

Made a correction to the mob element associations, I goofed a little on it. Basically the 4 group are all associated to Light Group elements and 3 group are all associated to Dark Group elements.

If you don't know:

Light Group (Light, Fire, Wind, Thunder)
Dark Group (Dark, Earth, Water, Ice)

[Gyfford]

Basically for example a Crab the 2nd Tier elements suggest that it should be resistant to Fire, neutral to water
I was following you perfect until the neutral to water. I thought that water based mobs are the most resistant and/or take the less damage when using that spell.

Example is my pug pet vs warlocks. He casted Flood on my water pet, and it did 20 damage or w/e (and that's A.M.), then he casted burst and just rocked him 1500 or w/e. I just wish I was paying attn to the fire based spells.

*edit* oh yeah and that snapshot of the chart, thx... but like the key at the top says there should be %'s with the arrow to show if resistant somewhat. I don't see that anywhere.

I just don't see it being as cut and dry as Xelement based don't use that element spell... I'm thinking there is a bit more detail in it.

[neighbortaru]

I think Macht is trying to illustrate that using element affinity to determine mob resistance is not always correct, and counter to the logic.

*edit* oh yeah and that snapshot of the chart, thx... but like the key at the top says there should be %'s with the arrow to show if resistant somewhat. I don't see that anywhereum, the legend up top says 'x' means 50% resistant so if you see an 'x' it's 50% resistant (btw, I read this as being flat out 50% reduction to damage as opposed to normal resistance which can vary).

[Macht]

I was following you perfect until the neutral to water. I thought that water based mobs are the most resistant and/or take the less damage when using that spell.

Example is my pug pet vs warlocks. He casted Flood on my water pet, and it did 20 damage or w/e (and that's A.M.), then he casted burst and just rocked him 1500 or w/e. I just wish I was paying attn to the fire based spells.

Well said it's either neutral or has a bit of resistance, then again I might be mixing it up. I'm doing this by head off the study I did, all my paper work is at home. I could be mixing it up and the Crab would be High Resistant to Water and Low Resistance to Fire.

Though I kind of doubt I'm mixing it up because lot of the times mobs I've fought seem to take normal or more to their element, but there is a lot of combinations to mess with still because as pointed before Bombs don't follow that structure, yet if Bombs are classified as something say Demon or (Crap forgot the other dark element mob type). They'd be a Dark element, so having a light element associated to it would be it's weakness the idea of purifying.

If you look at it the Bomb isn't really fire, it's a possessed object since the object protects it from the normal purification (Cure, Banish, etc..) it has to be purified by increasing the element it's possessing. It's not that it makes it blow up, if that was the case then any fire spell should of auto-triggered it's self-destruct.

To catch the difference before some states it, Element type monsters are not possessions. They are pure elements so it's only logical they'd have high resistance that element, but as pure elements demonstrate the best they hold very true to the teir 1 element make up or the very basic. So a Wind element would be weak to Ice. I still think it's a bad name for the spell, physics behind the spell is turn an object cold which for a wind element would be bad since it's composses of hot air rising and mixing with cooler air. So basically turning the entire wind element to cold air which distrupts it's presence, by the same flip of it fire or heating the wind should also have an effect.

[Gyfford]

Ah I see now what they did in the charts lol

Still left out all other elements except for ice/thunder/and water tho. Which is stuff we all know. Either you're not understanding my stand here or something. It does not say in that chart (fire been tested as neutral... X amount of spells X resists etc) It just skips over it.

We all know there are spells that just plain don't work on mobs, but how about spells that just plain work less than others? Different lv Tiers of resistance.

I'm done with this subject until tomorrow. I'll post data (hard numbers of as many spells, as I feel like doing on a Friday) That way it's not just people repeating the weakness chart and matching up the base element with what spell not to cast.

[neighbortaru]

it's not left out, it just means it's neutral.

if you poke around the studio gobli (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Part/6371/index.html) site, I'm sure you'll find the statistical break-down you are looking for.