Merit Point Reassignment

[levish]

I am the worlds biggest fan of meriting, but what happens when we desire to level a job that the original merit application no longer compliments?

i.e.

You start out as a PLD meriting up your shiney new job at 75 and you proceed to merit sword skill / crit rate down / enimity increase and all the other nice tank specific upgrades.

You now decide to go out and play a DRK, so not only are a large portion of your merits useless, they are actually detrimental in some cases.

Do you waste all the upgrades in +Enimity?
Do you gimp your gear to compensate?
Do you erase all your +sword skill merits and put in +greatsword merits after going out and getting another 300,000 experience points worth of merits?

Let's not even speak of the stat's merits or the HP vs. MP merits

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just when Lowering a merit, get the points returned to you? Weren't they mine to begin with? Couldn't I have spent them on that category to begin with?

I'm not asking to be allowed to assign them on any categories, but since the limits per categories are so strict, let us reassign them ...

I don't need to be proficient with a Katanna and a Scythe at the same time, but it sure would be nice to know that the months i spent capping Katanna didn't go to waste when I realized my new calling is Thief yay Dagger and Marksmanship unavailable because someone has 8 upgrades in Katanna and 4 in evasion.

Heaven forbid we actually make use of one of the most brilliant things FF has to offer: The job change function.

[Akai]

thats a fantastic idea, id love to see it happen :x currently i have an enmity merit, h2h, and a HP merit id like to get rid of, but i cant bring myself to lower it :/ they should add this, or alteast get half of the merits used :/

[BurningPanther]

Oh, I am so in support of this idea. It should have been implemented with the introduction of merits.

[Balodoth]

Would paying one merit point for compensation of the others be acceptable?

[levish]

not sure what you mean?

the problems:

1. meriting X prevents you from meriting Y
if you deleved X to now merit Y, you now have to get all the merit points again that you spent on X again for Y.

2. leveling JobB coming from merited job A makes job B more difficult with merits than easier, you cannot for the most part erase these merits because Job A is your main endgame job, JobB is something new you are having fun with.

3. you have 8 upgrades in katanna (ninja only) and go off to level samurai and it benefits you precisely 0% because you have no skill in katanna. If you could reasssign, you could take your 8 upgrades in katanna and make them G Katanna upgrades and put them back to Katanna upgrades when you need to go back to Nin.

Furthermore, I'd rather there be some reasonable monetary sum paid for reassignment than more xp, or maybe some miniquest?

[Neomage]

I like this idea. Personally, I understand why SE made it so you lose merits if you take them away:

1) So you spend more time playing.

2) If you spend time focusing on your dagger skills, it dosn't just poof into katana.

However:

1) SE dosn't realize that my letting players exchange merits, they would actually level more jobs because they aren't faced with loseing/gaining/losing/gaining just to switch jobs once.

2) Vana D'. is a place with magic and abilitys running wild. Merits could actually be considered ability catalysts rather than skills.

3) SE could also comprimise - You can't empty say, Sword Skill with 8 merits in it and use the 8 merits again, but they could let you take out all but the last merit, and have 7 merits to spend. If the final sword merit was taken away(the base catalyst) you would not gain merits from it.

[Khevn]

Most if not all Merits are only active if your 75, so while lvling that other job, enmity +1 or - and MP and HP + will not take a effect until that new said job is 75. So in no way while you are lvling a new job will merits hinder that, because you simply can't use them unless your 75. Merits Are simply there, from my point of view, as way to Specialize your primary job class even further. It looks to me like it's SE's way of rewarding someone who continues to play 1 specific job. So if your changing your main and you gotta work for your merits agian and thats why your complaining, then your not gonna see much sympathy. The point of not making it so you can specialize in every job is that you need to rely on ther people. Rather than make it so with enough time everyone can be Mr. Jack of all Trades uber. If you could do that you might as well make the game Diablo-esque where you just jump on a server with people you want to play exclusively because you can all do anything anyways, you just need everyone to be this or that specifically, for that said monster or mission.

[levish]

thank you for your support, just some little things

1. I can spend more time doing other things than just getting merit points, especially for those of us at the point where merits are of particularly high usefulness

2. so what if you move merits from one category to another, it's not like you go from having 8 upgrades in katanna to having 8 upgrades in dagger at the same time. but it does let you have the option of testing:

how 0 merits in katanna + 8 merits in dagger works out for nin
how 4 merits in 1 handed axe and 8 merits in sword work for ridill warriors
how 4 upgrades in evasion work for you compared to 8 in marksmanship and 4 in dagger for soloing as thief

I could go on forever, but it basically lets people be flexible rather than restricted.

I got those 300k experience points for combat once, if I change my mind, why do i have to get them again?

and Khevin that is not correct, most merits take effect at level 10 and carry on upgrading from there.

[Khevn]

What specific merits are those? I have +4 enmity +8 sword + 40 hp and i just got chivalry, when I switch to my whm lvl 37 the Hp's are no higher than before i merited my, pld, I don't pull hate when i'm on my BLM anymore than i normally do, and my sword skill when when I switch jobs is non existent. So which merits specifically are there that stay after 10 and up when i play another job that isn't 75?

[tdh]

I like the notion behind this, but how about another suggestion?

We currently have a Combat Skill Merit Category. How about allowing us to Merit weapons and Skills for a specific job. A lot of us have multiple Lv.75 jobs, or are plan on taking more jobs to Lv.75.

Example A
Job 1: THF75
Job 2: WAR75
Job 3: NIN75
Job 4: RNG75

So Enmity + might help NIN & THF, but doesn't help WAR & RNG at all. Crit Hit % helps all 4, but if they decide to Merit a weapon they're sadly limited. Katana Merits would greatly help, but he's doing HNM & Dynamis as RNG 85% of the time. Having additional Archery Merits would help him there though.

Example B
Job 1: RDM75
Job 2: DRK75
Job 3: WAR75
Job 4: SAM75

This is my eventual dream. Sword Merits wouldn't hurt RDM soloing & WAR if I decide to off hand a Sword. But I will want Axe Merits, Great Sword Merits, Scythe Merits, and Great Katana Merits. It's almost to the point where putting Merits into these many weapons won't actually afford me anything. I'd ~like~ to have fully Merit'd Axes & Great Katana, but under the current system that's not possible.

So add another sub Combat Group to the jobs for their specialty weapon. PLD, NIN, WAR, and THF would have Enmity + options. SAM would have the option to Merit Great Katana, DRK GS & Scythe, then give Mages and other DD jobs Enmity - options. That way they don't interfere with the other Merits, and would keep us leveling and playing even longer.

This way my friend in Example A can merit Enmity for NIN & THF, and then lower his Enmity for his DD jobs. And in Example B for myself, I can cap our Great Katana for end game activites, and still have the same for WAR & DRK. (Provided I can even do things in end game as something other than RDM! lol)

Perhaps even do the same for Magic Skills. Another friend I know has BRD, WHM, BLM, and RDM all at Lv.75. If she caps Enfeebling, she can't do the same for Healing Magic, Elemental Magic, or BRD skills. Personally I would love to be able to cap Dark Magic for DRK, but Enfeebling magic is far more important to me for RDM.

[csBahamut]

I am personally against this. Limiting what merits you can have, and how one wants to boost their jobs at 75 adds some uniqueness to every character. As it is, each job has an almost set best equipment set. the only reason there's any variation in gear between players of the same job is because of race differences, and availability. While it would be nice to be able to get merits for all the jobs I would want to play, it kind of defeats the purpose of having slight differences between all players. It says something about me when I put merits towards my PLD first and formost. Even then, the merits I choose to use for PLD are probably different from another PLD due to my playstyle and other jobs I'm leveling.

Besides, SE already has this implimented in a limited sense with the Job specific categories.

[Climhazzard]

I've always thought we should've been able to do this merits. But, I also don't think we should be allowed to change our merits around in the same job just to fit the situation we're in.


An example of what I am saying:

If I'm playing BST and I decide to sub SAM because I want to use Spirits Within while fighting an HNM, but I capped MP merits because MP helps me out more most of the time, I should not be allowed to switch my merits from MP to HP just to fit the situation without some sort of major penalty.

Now, if I decide to change my job to MNK, then I think I should be able to take my MP merits and change them to another, more benefitting merit.

I think the way merits are now make us actually think before we decide what merit to use and I think that aspect needs to stay. I'm a firm believer in that and if I chose the wrong merit or upgrade, then I've got no one to blame but myself. But, with FFXI, where we use the same character to play every job, some merits hurt another job and I think we should be able to reassign merits when we choose to play a different job but not allowing merit reassignment on the same job.

[levish]

I've always thought we should've been able to do this merits. But, I also don't think we should be allowed to change our merits around in the same job just to fit the situation we're in.


An example of what I am saying:

If I'm playing BST and I decide to sub SAM because I want to use Spirits Within while fighting an HNM, but I capped MP merits because MP helps me out more most of the time, I should not be allowed to switch my merits from MP to HP just to fit the situation without some sort of major penalty.

Now, if I decide to change my job to MNK, then I think I should be able to take my MP merits and change them to another, more benefitting merit.

I think the way merits are now make us actually think before we decide what merit to use and I think that aspect needs to stay. I'm a firm believer in that and if I chose the wrong merit or upgrade, then I've got no one to blame but myself. But, with FFXI, where we use the same character to play every job, some merits hurt another job and I think we should be able to reassign merits when we choose to play a different job but not allowing merit reassignment on the same job.

o_O

so you are suggesting that the only way to change your assigned merits would be to level up two jobs to 75 and then be able to reassign them?

and why should anyone have to be "to blame" for a decision you've changed your mind on?

and why should anyone have to then go out and get another 300k xp because of that decision?

[Climhazzard]

o_O

so you are suggesting that the only way to change your assigned merits would be to level up two jobs to 75 and then be able to reassign them?

Unfortunately, that's the way it works out. In order to reassign merits, the player would have to have at least two 75 jobs before they could reassign them.

and why should anyone have to be "to blame" for a decision you've changed your mind on?

and why should anyone have to then go out and get another 300k xp because of that decision?

Because people should think before they act. We're given enough information to know what we want to merit be it from the actual merit description given in the game, to other players offering descriptions and their own opinions on a merit. I don't think one job should be able to reassign merit points because, as another poster said, it adds a unique quality to the character and FFXI needs a LOT more of this.

I think we should just be happy that we can delete a merit and go get some limit points to place that merit in another category. In some MMOs, players can allot stat points. They gain these points with every new level gained. But, once they're added in these other MMOs, those points cannot be taken away. They're there permanently. I remember Warriors in EQOA loading up on STR and DEX points with every new point they got. They later complained about it saying they "didn't know any better" because they couldn't tank worth a flip. The job description and abilities clearly show Warriors as a tank.

[levish]

I guess everyone's entitled to a opinion however the counterpoint is that the more popular games allow "talent respecs"

not sure what anyone stands to gain from having to go out and grind more xp other than SE in wasting our time.

[Legal Fish]

They should make it like BLU.

Dagger and Katana...

You should still have to work to unlock Katana, but you should be able to change which is upgraded if you have both merited up.

[Icemage]

Most if not all Merits are only active if your 75, so while lvling that other job, enmity +1 or - and MP and HP + will not take a effect until that new said job is 75. So in no way while you are lvling a new job will merits hinder that, because you simply can't use them unless your 75.

This isn't true. Any levelled merit will apply 1 level per 10 full job levels on any applicable job. I have 1 level of HP merit, for instance, so I gain +10 HP on any job that I have at level 10 or higher. I have 7 levels of Enfeebling Magic merit, and I gain 2 levels of Enfeebling Magic for every 10 full levels of any job I'm on.

That being said, I don't like the idea of being able to just swap points around at will. Makes it too easy for everyone to choose the best "cookie cutter" setup for each job on the fly, instead of making intelligent choices and sacrifices based on what they feel is most important to each job.


Icemage

[levish]

This isn't true. Any levelled merit will apply 1 level per 10 full job levels on any applicable job. I have 1 level of HP merit, for instance, so I gain +10 HP on any job that I have at level 10 or higher. I have 7 levels of Enfeebling Magic merit, and I gain 2 levels of Enfeebling Magic for every 10 full levels of any job I'm on.

That being said, I don't like the idea of being able to just swap points around at will. Makes it too easy for everyone to choose the best "cookie cutter" setup for each job on the fly, instead of making intelligent choices and sacrifices based on what they feel is most important to each job.


Icemage

what does making intelligent choices have to do with changing your mind, or discovering a new calling ...

[Icemage]

what does making intelligent choices have to do with changing your mind, or discovering a new calling ...

You always have the option of doing more merit parties and getting the necessary points. It's not a race, you know.

People complain enough about not being "unique" at end-game as it is. This suggestion would make even the minor distinctions from merits completely unimportant because people will just switch into whatever merit points most favor their current activity.

If you say it's a waste of time and effort to merit more to get the abilities you want... well... I don't know what else to tell you except that the entire FFXI end-game is designed to waste your time to keep you happy. :)


Icemage

[little ninja]

Yeah for me i have 2 jobs at 75, so i know what i wanted to do. as im lucky an both rely on each others merits. HP, Crit hit rate, then it got hard. how many do i put into katana or axe. then what do i do for eva an parry skill. in the end it was a tough choice.

I feel bad for those players who have multiple jobs at 75. then you pretty much are hurtin compared to another guy playing the job who only has that 1 job leveled. in a way its more S.E hurting the multiple 75 jobs a player has, vs a guy with 1 or 2.

[Nazo]

I disagree with this change as well. I've just started meriting my first job, but am being careful not to pick merits that will potentially mess up other jobs should I want to play them.

I think the system is fine as it is, if you want to play lots of jobs, choose a balanced setup at the expense of being uber in any particular job, if you are happy to specialize in one job then go for that at the expense of flexibility. I don't get my xp back from job x just because I decide to play job y for a bit, why should you with merits?

It might be nice to be able to turn off specific merits though, so I could merit emnity down for my whitemage but temporarily cancel the effect if I want to play a tank.

[Ziero]

Well the whole reason you can't just swap your merits is because SE wanted these to be at least somewhat permanent changes. They wanted people to put more focus into their 'main' jobs so they make you choose carefully what you do want to merit. As said before, be thankful you *can* remove and change merits, even if you do need to go exping again, as many games don't give you that option. I plan on taking many melee jobs to 75 so I know I'll focus on melee oriented stuff in general, but that's just me. You have to actually put some thought into what you want to enhance or else you have to do it all over again and that system works fine for me.

[Karinya]

I think that when you lower the level of a particular merit ability, you shouldn't *lose* the higher levels of that ability, they should just stop working (and stop counting against the category limit) until you choose to turn them back on again. In other words, merit limits should work like the ability limits in FFIX or Front Mission 4 - that's how many merits you can have *active at one time* in that category.

This solves the problem with +enmity/-enmity sometimes working against you (you can just turn them off), and allows people with multiple 75 jobs to potentially fully merit all of them (if they put in the extra time and effort to earn more merit points - as much as twice as many if the jobs are different enough). The requirement to pay full price for *both* abilities in order to be able to choose between them should shut up the people complaining about how someone would get 2 merits for the price of 1.


I don't think it would really hurt the game to have RDM be able to turn on dark magic skill merits when they sub DRK, WARs change their merit setup depending on whether they are going to tank or DD, jobs with two main weapons be able to merit them both fully, etc. (How much of the neglect of Scythe and Great Axe at high levels is because WARs and DRKs are invested in fully meriting their *other* main weapon and can't get full merit effectiveness in both?)

The system isn't really abusable since you would still have to be in your Mog House to change your merit setup. At most you would see people bring one merit setup to merit parties, another to HNMs and a third to Dynamis - what's wrong with that? People already bring different gear, food and subjobs to those situations and it only strengthens the game. Some merits with situational uses, that are currently totally ignored, could be used for the situations they're good for (e.g. throwing on RNG).

Merits don't make a character more unique now. Unless you know a lot of DRKs that chose to merit their scythe instead of their greatsword, or SAMs that maxed their parry... cookie cutter setups still rule, but now you are stuck with it 100% of the time instead of just in the situation you got it for. If you level more than one job, *then* merits make you unique... often, uniquely gimped. Gee, that's helpful. Endgame activities seem increasingly balanced around the assumption that players can have lots of merits if they want, so people who can't fully merit all of their jobs can be at a serious disadvantage.


Those who choose to buy more merits than they can use at one time would benefit with increased flexibility; those who want to stick with one setup don't need any more merit ponits to reach it than they need now. Nobody is actually nerfed. And some people get another incentive to earn even more merit points than they have now. The only "drawback" I can see is for people who have a one-size-fits-all setup and don't want someone else to be able to put in *more* effort than they did and achieve more results.

[Akai]

What specific merits are those? I have +4 enmity +8 sword + 40 hp and i just got chivalry, when I switch to my whm lvl 37 the Hp's are no higher than before i merited my, pld, I don't pull hate when i'm on my BLM anymore than i normally do, and my sword skill when when I switch jobs is non existent. So which merits specifically are there that stay after 10 and up when i play another job that isn't 75?

HP, MP, stat(STR, etc), and magic skill are for every job~
i currently have 1hp/mp, a few axe/eva skills, and some enmity and crit. i DO have +10hp/mp on every job, +2 axe/eva on every job, and id guess i have my enmity/crit, but theres no way to check it :x only Job traits work when you're on the specific job

[levish]

i'd be all for turning them off and on which would be a bypass of sorts for categories, only downside is going out and merting again but at least you have the option to go back and forth without loosing one or the other.

[csBahamut]

Yeah for me i have 2 jobs at 75, so i know what i wanted to do. as im lucky an both rely on each others merits. HP, Crit hit rate, then it got hard. how many do i put into katana or axe. then what do i do for eva an parry skill. in the end it was a tough choice.

I feel bad for those players who have multiple jobs at 75. then you pretty much are hurtin compared to another guy playing the job who only has that 1 job leveled. in a way its more S.E hurting the multiple 75 jobs a player has, vs a guy with 1 or 2.

Yes, exactly. The system rewards those who focus on one job. It sort of levels the difference on one job between 2 players. One with only 1 lvl 75 job, and the other with multiple 75 jobs.

[Neomage]

I see alot of people on here disagree with this because it would allow people to change merits at will. This goes back to the compromise - Say, for every merit you un-merit you get half the points spent in that back, rounded down.

[Icemage]

I see alot of people on here disagree with this because it would allow people to change merits at will. This goes back to the compromise - Say, for every merit you un-merit you get half the points spent in that back, rounded down.

The majority of merit levels cost 1 to 3 points. With this scheme you either get 0 back (level 1 of most merits) or 1 point back (2-3 points). Not much change from the status quo, and a whole lot of extra bookkeeping in the process.

I'd be OK with maybe getting back (Merit Cost - 1) for each delevel. That lessens the impact of heavy investment in specific merits while still imposing a tangible cost each time you delevel one to raise another.

Re: csBahamut
Perhaps the sole job 75 will be more effective in their specific job, but I'll take the 2x75 player along with me any day due to their superior flexibility. Endgame is all about bringing the right skills and abilities to fights and executing on it; I don't care if someone is the best Ninja on the server if what I need is a Paladin tank. :)


Icemage

[Neomage]

Thats actually a good idea. Merit cost -1 would let people get some merits back, so they arn't as penalized if they give up xxxx job because they hate it and love yyyy job, but it will stop people from spam-switching merits.

[Karinya]

Yes, exactly. The system rewards those who focus on one job. It sort of levels the difference on one job between 2 players. One with only 1 lvl 75 job, and the other with multiple 75 jobs.
No, it *creates* that difference where none existed before. You completely missed little_ninja's point.

Without merits, a PLD75 who is also a NIN75 is no different than one who is also a BLM75, or one that has no other 75 job at all. They all have the same PLD abilities (assuming the same subjob and gear. Most of the same gear can be obtained by any of them if they're willing to put in the time and effort, I'll discuss the exceptions below).

With merits, the first PLD faces some very tough choices in combat skills and will probably end up less effective in *both* his jobs, the second doesn't have any problems with combat but can't merit enmity either way without shooting himself in the foot, and the third has no problems until he decides to take up another job. Now the first two are handicapped by having another job, when they were equal before (assuming they put in the extra time to gear up *all* their jobs, of course). It only gets worse for people with three or more 75s. For example, I know a 75 MNK, NIN and BRD. Even thinking about trying to allocate merits for him with the current system gives me a headache.


FFXI has a job change system for a reason - to encourage players to play and level multiple jobs, and to not force them to use separate characters (and thus redo dozens of missions and quests, some of them very time consuming, plus any subjobs that may be shared in common, etc.) It's one of the greatest things about this game that distinguishes it from hordes of other MMOs.

The merit system in its present form directly undermines it. Sure, you can have more than one job at 75 - but not at 75 + full merit. And if you leveled before merits were introduced (or before they became as powerful as they are now), you didn't even know that when you took your second job to 75. Sucker! Do it over again on another char (along with all those missions and quests and all the EX gear you already have) or be *permanently* weaker than other players at one or both of your jobs.

Choose-one rewards from unrepeatable quests/missions (Divine Might, PM8-4, Apocalypse Nigh) undermine job change a little, too - but only a little, because equipment takes up equipment slots, that you could put something else in. A PLD75 and SAM75 can only get Rajas *or* Sattva ring, but he still can get something else to put in his other ring slot. He can't put anything else in the merit "slots" taken up by 8 Great Katana merits.


Suggestions like Icemage's don't address this problem at all. I have no problem with merit point spending being 100% non-refundable, it's having useless (or, in the case of enmity, worse-than-useless) merits count against the caps that is the real problem (for multiple-75s, at least). I want to be able to equip different merits on different jobs, even if I have to earn twice as many limit points to do it. Why not, I'm already used to having to spend twice as much time getting gear (except for the rare pieces that can be used in common). Merits would be the same way - some I can use for both, most I have to get separately. But then I could put on the ones that are useful for my current job.

If there were some way to tie merit assignment to a job so that you couldn't change merit setup *within* a job (without some kind of penalty) but could still have different setups for different jobs, I guess that would work too. It seems unnecessarily complicated though. Merit configuration within the limits of what you have already bought wouldn't change much if anything. You can't get any setup with it that you can't get without it if you want it bad enough.

[Lunaryn]

If the idea of simply 'cashing out' merits at lowered cost is a bit disturbing, how about this for a possible approach (though one that still necessarily runs afoul of the perspective that merits should be reasonably permanent investments): An option to spend merit points (amounts can be balanced as seems reasonable) to move up to a certain number of merit points from one category to a similar-nature category? This would force an upfront investment in performing a change, without actually being a 'discard previous investment to make new investment' situation. It also represents the possibility of graduating the cost of the change based on how radical a departure it is from the original (a little like the job change function in FF3, sort of).

[Icemage]

Suggestions like Icemage's don't address this problem at all. I have no problem with merit point spending being 100% non-refundable, it's having useless (or, in the case of enmity, worse-than-useless) merits count against the caps that is the real problem (for multiple-75s, at least). I want to be able to equip different merits on different jobs, even if I have to earn twice as many limit points to do it. Why not, I'm already used to having to spend twice as much time getting gear (except for the rare pieces that can be used in common). Merits would be the same way - some I can use for both, most I have to get separately. But then I could put on the ones that are useful for my current job.

Whoah, hold the music here. There's no law in FFXI that says you have to be equivalently strong as every other player in the same job.

If you really want to excel at one job - dump all your relatively useful merits into that one job. You're going to be the "best" at that job, no matter how many level 75 jobs you have. While on that one job, you're the same as anyone else who wants to specialize in that one job.

If you don't want to specialize, then you can be "above average" in all the jobs that you tilt your merits towards.

You can call that a penalty for levelling multiple jobs if you want, but I don't see any inherent unfairness here. If you specialize, you're the best. If you generalize, you're better than people who haven't merited that job at all, and weaker than specialists, but... and here's the operative point... you are better than the specialist in another job that you've merited.


If there were some way to tie merit assignment to a job so that you couldn't change merit setup *within* a job (without some kind of penalty) but could still have different setups for different jobs, I guess that would work too. It seems unnecessarily complicated though. Merit configuration within the limits of what you have already bought wouldn't change much if anything. You can't get any setup with it that you can't get without it if you want it bad enough.

I happen to agree that a few of the merit categories should have been rethought (particularly combat/magic skills and enmity -/+), but the system seems pretty fair overall.

EDIT: For clarity.

Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Personally, I quit BRD on my former and now, save for MP merits, I have little to show for it toward my other jobs. I think so long as there were certain limits placed on it - like reassigning some of your merits from job-specific to the more general merits - it would be fair.

However, the line would have to be drawn on the new job abilities and spells. If you spent on those, you should be stuck with it.

[Balodoth]

Perhaps you could invest a point into a "Category Configuration" to alter point usage. In addition to spending a point on configuration, though, it would allow you to exceed the limit for that particular category. This is because you would not be able to allocate points that you had not spent on that bonus previously. In addition, some categories may not have the option to spend a point for "Category Configuration" such as tier II job abilities. Finally, changes to point allocation would be disallowed until after midnight JP time, or something to that effect.

This could be useful even in situations where you only want to make minor changes. For instance, you may not need to change from enmity + to -, but you may want to tone down your enmity so that you aren't constantly targeted but can still spike hate if needed.

[csBahamut]

No, it *creates* that difference where none existed before. You completely missed little_ninja's point.

Sorry, I worded that sentence poorly, and used the wrong word there. I was aggreeing with littla_ninja.

If SE would make it so that players could freely move around merits at will (like some people want in this thread) after beating the level 70 Limit Break fights on every job, then I'd have no qualms with it. People deserve something nice for all that work besides some cap.

[Raydeus]

I would like seeing this as long as you could reassign merits only in the same category you spent the merits originally, for instance say you have 10 merits spent on Others, you could only reassign those 10 points within others only, but not use those merits to adjust other categories.

That would be nice for those cases where players have Emnity +/- issues, and other things like that.

As a RDM it would give me the freedom to redirect the merits I earned for different ocassions, one time I could go all for Convert recast, and the next switch it to Ice acc. (however I wouldn't be able to change those points to the Group II spells category since that's a different thing).

That would be much better imo.

[levish]

I would like seeing this as long as you could reassign merits only in the same category you spent the merits originally, for instance say you have 10 merits spent on Others, you could only reassign those 10 points within others only, but not use those merits to adjust other categories.

That would be nice for those cases where players have Emnity +/- issues, and other things like that.

As a RDM it would give me the freedom to redirect the merits I earned for different ocassions, one time I could go all for Convert recast, and the next switch it to Ice acc. (however I wouldn't be able to change those points to the Group II spells category since that's a different thing).

That would be much better imo.

This suggestion would address my concern so I feel that for me at least it'd be more than a satisfying change.

[Vyuru]

I like Raydeus's idea, but in general, I feel somewhat against it. To me, it is the same as taking, say Goldsmithing, to level 100, then deciding that you wanted to swap to Alchemy, and then saying that you should be able to exchange 100 levels of Goldsmithing for 100 levels of Alchemy, since you already put in the time and effort to level Goldsmithing.

Merits are for tweaking out your character, and making your character special and somewhat unique. If a rdm for instance, chooses to merit Ice accuracy, instead of Convert, then that should be his special unique skill.

So while I like the thought of merit swapping, I just don't think it would be a good idea, it would make everyone more or less the same endgame.

Like taking a craft beyond lvl 60 is craft mastery, merits are job mastery, I don't think you should be able to just switch merits on the fly, even with a penalty.

[csBahamut]

I like Raydeus's idea, but in general, I feel somewhat against it. To me, it is the same as taking, say Goldsmithing, to level 100, then deciding that you wanted to swap to Alchemy, and then saying that you should be able to exchange 100 levels of Goldsmithing for 100 levels of Alchemy, since you already put in the time and effort to level Goldsmithing.

Merits are for tweaking out your character, and making your character special and somewhat unique. If a rdm for instance, chooses to merit Ice accuracy, instead of Convert, then that should be his special unique skill.

So while I like the thought of merit swapping, I just don't think it would be a good idea, it would make everyone more or less the same endgame.

Like taking a craft beyond lvl 60 is craft mastery, merits are job mastery, I don't think you should be able to just switch merits on the fly, even with a penalty.

Good point. If people can swap merits freely, then we might as well be able to swap crafting levels as well. Switching my cooking skill over to Goldsmithing would save me so much time and money. I could also craft anything that I'd ever want to craft! The argument for convenience can be used for anything and everything. Somewhere a line needs to be drawn so that people just have to deal with tough decisions. There's has to be something in the game besides gear availability (and playstyle/skill) to force differences between players.

[levish]

There is a strong difference between crafting levels and merit points.

There are particular costs associated with crafting vs. xp/meriting where you can merit as any job and spend the points on the one you want. Meaning if I wanted to level up bard and merit for almost free I could, and I could then spend my merits on my Ninja or Thief. In crafting you have no flexibility to skillup on another guilds recipies (subcraft requirements aside).

And if you honestly think ANYONE endgame that chooses a class to participate as would be going in with merits on another job ...

Yea a ton of good those +great katanna merits will do you when you are coming as Red Mage. One of this games fundamental departure from the norm is the flexible job system, the merit point inflexibility is just one thing that doesn't jive with that.

[Khevn]

Hmmmm it seem the best answer for everyone and SE would be to make it so, Every Job to 75 has a clean merit set, No job is effective by the others merits and you can gain more merits for this specific job. So you can Get the +enmity for your pld, but when you switch to whm you see 0 merits there and can go -enmity if you decided to EXP even more to trick out your whm. You don't have to worry about being affected by another job, you have the option to get merits placed as you want in your second job, but you have to put in more hours to get them. You get your merits in your PLD and BRD, and SE gets the benefit of you clocking in more hours and holding onto that conent ID for another 6months years whatever.

[Karinya]

Whoah, hold the music here. There's no law in FFXI that says you have to be equivalently strong as every other player in the same job.
Certainly not if you haven't put in as much effort. But if you have... then that's only fair, isn't it?

There are games where a given character can only do one thing well, but I thought FFXI wasn't supposed to be one of them. Isn't that the whole point of having a job change system in the first place?

Do you think it would be fair to allow each character to have only one job at 75 and all others cap at 70? Merits aren't *quite* that dramatic a difference - but they are pretty significant. Instead, not only can you get to 75 with all jobs, you don't even have to do genkais again - a clear *encouragement* to level multiple jobs on the same char. So why is the merit system at such obvious cross-purposes with the rest of the game?

Crafting is an invalid comparison because you have all your crafts at once. You don't have to go into your mog house to change from a goldsmith/woodworker into a woodworker/smith. Personally I don't see any reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to get all crafts to 100 if they want to put in the massive time, effort and money investment to do so, but I guess SE was concerned about the effect such people might have on the economy. Anyway, that's another thread.
If you really want to excel at one job - dump all your relatively useful merits into that one job. You're going to be the "best" at that job, no matter how many level 75 jobs you have. While on that one job, you're the same as anyone else who wants to specialize in that one job.

If you don't want to specialize, then you can be "above average" in all the jobs that you tilt your merits towards.
You mean below average. Meriting is so stupidly easy with TAU exp areas that anyone who *doesn't* do it is the exception.
You can call that a penalty for levelling multiple jobs if you want,
You mean because that's obviously what it is? Yeah.
but I don't see any inherent unfairness here. If you specialize, you're the best. If you generalize, you're better than people who haven't merited that job at all, and weaker than specialists, but... and here's the operative point... you are better than the specialist in another job that you've merited.
Ah, just like the old days when RDM was the second-best at everything!

I wasn't around then, but I've heard the stories. Nobody wants the second-best.

So, effectively, you can level more than one job to 75 on the same character if you want, but if you do, you're a fool, because only one can be fully effective. What? You didn't know that before you invested a million exp and earned a bunch of ex gear? Tough shit.
I happen to agree that a few of the merit categories should have been rethought (particularly combat/magic skills and enmity -/+), but the system seems pretty fair overall.
Except for people who need to change jobs on a regular basis, yeah.

Well, HTH merits are a little stronger than other weapon merits because of the nature of HTH, but I don't think that's too big a deal, really. (Or, at least, it's overshadowed by the physical resistance/magic weakness of pretty much all HNM which is a far worse balance problem.)


Merits carrying over to other jobs should be OPTIONAL. Not MANDATORY. Then you can - *if* you earn enough merit points - buy appropriate merits for as many DIFFERENT jobs as you want, without being restricted by the merits you already bought for another job that are useless or counterproductive on your current job.

[levish]

Khevn that would work in SE's favor, not the player in that all that it would do make it a even worse timesink

Thank you Karinya for understanding the point of my original post.

Players stand to gain little or nothing by grinding more or once more, once they've reached 75. if you haven't learned what you should have picked up on your journey from 1 -> 75 you probably will never do so.

Clean sheet of merits means if I wanted to level PLD in addition to Nin that I'd have to re merit +Crit +Enimity +MP

Sure, annoying people in the already crowded woodlands getting back xp I had to wipe to have fun with my new character is better, or just sticking with the first set of merits despite all the new jobs available ...

[Icemage]

Certainly not if you haven't put in as much effort. But if you have... then that's only fair, isn't it?
Putting in the same amount of effort means deciding that you want to spent the extra time to excel in that one job. If you choose to place your allowable merits elsewhere, you have explicitly chosen NOT to improve this trait. The specialist who has only one job has the exact same issue once they reach 75 in another job.


There are games where a given character can only do one thing well, but I thought FFXI wasn't supposed to be one of them. Isn't that the whole point of having a job change system in the first place?
That's an unsupported leap of logic. The job change system is what it is - it lets you change jobs at will. The additional inference that you're supposed to be able to be the best at every job is not indicated. And who says that people who don't have as many merits can't do their jobs well?


Do you think it would be fair to allow each character to have only one job at 75 and all others cap at 70? Merits aren't *quite* that dramatic a difference - but they are pretty significant. Instead, not only can you get to 75 with all jobs, you don't even have to do genkais again - a clear *encouragement* to level multiple jobs on the same char. So why is the merit system at such obvious cross-purposes with the rest of the game?
Ask Square-Enix. That's their design, after all. :) You're making a huge issue where there is none. Nothing stops you from dumping merit points into job-specific merits, and those make a much more dramatic difference in effectiveness than the other merits combined.


Crafting is an invalid comparison because you have all your crafts at once. You don't have to go into your mog house to change from a goldsmith/woodworker into a woodworker/smith. Personally I don't see any reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to get all crafts to 100 if they want to put in the massive time, effort and money investment to do so, but I guess SE was concerned about the effect such people might have on the economy. Anyway, that's another thread.
Actually crafting is an excellent example. Have you ever crafted? I have three crafts at 90+ on my characters. I had to level cooking on my mule because I couldn't do it without sacrificing points in Woodworking. Didn't faze me, it's just the way it is.

By the same token, you could choose to create a second character and level THAT character to 75 and excel at another job if you really wanted to invest the time (I've known a few people who did exactly that).


You mean below average. Meriting is so stupidly easy with TAU exp areas that anyone who *doesn't* do it is the exception.

Tch. Elitism? Please. Merits don't make or break your effectiveness. They're nice, but you make it out like you absolutely suck if you haven't maxed your merits out, and that's simply not true. Most merits are barely noticeable in terms of net effectiveness, aside from a few of the new spells and abilities, which are available to all characters on all jobs


You mean because that's obviously what it is? Yeah.

Ah, just like the old days when RDM was the second-best at everything!

I wasn't around then, but I've heard the stories. Nobody wants the second-best.

I think you've completely missed the point of FFXI's end-game, which is very team-centric. You don't need to be the "best" to be successful - you just need good friends, good tactics, and good skills.

I belong to one of the best HNMLS on Midgardsormr, and you know what? We don't care in the least if someone has a completely decked out BLM with every piece of good gear - if we need another RDM, we need another RDM, and we'll ask them to come on RDM. My WHM gear and merits are much better than my BRD gear and merit setup, but I still get asked to come to events as BRD fairly often.

You place too little importance on flexibility and way too much on individual capabilities.


So, effectively, you can level more than one job to 75 on the same character if you want, but if you do, you're a fool, because only one can be fully effective. What? You didn't know that before you invested a million exp and earned a bunch of ex gear? Tough shit.

Any level 75 character with reasonably gear can perform just fine without a zillion merits. Is it nice if they have more? Sure. Do you absolutely need them? Nope.


Except for people who need to change jobs on a regular basis, yeah.


Check my sig. I have two level 75 jobs and a third at 74 on the cusp of 75. I change jobs once every few hours, and you know what? I don't lose any sleep over the fact that my Bard job isn't "the best" - it's good enough for the moment for what I need to do, and that's all that matters to me.


Well, HTH merits are a little stronger than other weapon merits because of the nature of HTH, but I don't think that's too big a deal, really. (Or, at least, it's overshadowed by the physical resistance/magic weakness of pretty much all HNM which is a far worse balance problem.)

Merits carrying over to other jobs should be OPTIONAL. Not MANDATORY. Then you can - *if* you earn enough merit points - buy appropriate merits for as many DIFFERENT jobs as you want, without being restricted by the merits you already bought for another job that are useless or counterproductive on your current job.

As I mentioned before, I think the merits that currently need work are enmity and skill merits, where bonuses in one area preclude bonuses for other jobs, or in the case of enmity, actually hurt you. It's still not as big a deal as you make it out to be, however.


Icemage

[levish]

As I mentioned before, I think the merits that currently need work are enmity and skill merits, where bonuses in one area preclude bonuses for other jobs, or in the case of enmity, actually hurt you. It's still not as big a deal as you make it out to be, however.

those are pretty much the only categories that you can carry over to other jobs and the subject of my interest. the class specific ones have no bearing on each other and do not limit each other in any way.

BTW merits absolutely make or break your performance combat specific ones included, particularly for melee jobs

+8 upgrades in dagger fighting IT means the difference between hitting and whiffing or hitting for 0

+8 upgrades in marksmanship means if you aren't a ranger you might actually hit and land a status bolt on something

+4 crit upgrades are felt everywhere

+4 upgrades in enimity are felt everywhere including where you don't want them.

Funny how the everything is fine attitude is presented where it clearly isn't does not apply for merits, you cannot go into a Black mage/Dark Knight/Monk job from a fully merited Paladin job and back under the current system.

"Don't apply those merits that don't compliment other jobs!"
"You can't be perfect at everything! choose one job and merit that!"
"You should have to merit more if you want those then merit more again if you want to go back!"

o_O

Seriously

Do you guys even actively play more than one job?
and if you do:
Do you play more than one job endgame?

If true I can't see why you'd be against merit point reassignment ... if False, what worth does your opinion have on a topic that doesn't apply to you?

*edited to include Icemage's quote*

[Omniblast]

Check my sig. I have two level 75 jobs and a third at 74 on the cusp of 75. I change jobs once every few hours, and you know what? I don't lose any sleep over the fact that my Bard job isn't "the best" - it's good enough for the moment for what I need to do, and that's all that matters to me.

lolbrd XD

P.S. Don't feel bad, my computer's dead to play ffxi for 3 weeks now lol.

[piroko]

I don't know if it has been mentioned but I think it would be interesting to "buy" a blank sheet of merits to reapply everything onto the new sheet for a specific job then pay like a merit point or a sum of gil to switch sheets to play on different jobs.

This, in my openion, would satisify people who want to specialize in all jobs as well as SE's want for people to stay and "waste their time" in game.

But what I really want is the ability to switch on and off Emnity merits