when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

[Takiri]

Ok heres the story.

was parting with a 63 dark knight and i noticed he didnt use any absorbs exept absorb tp. i never got that high of a level on drk but i thought they would use dex or str absorb so you can hit harder or hit more.

then he had to go.

now a 62 drk comes into party and we ask what absorbs he has. and he answers the noobest thing i ever heard! "i have no absorbs they arent worth it yet"

why would he say that and i dont get why he said "yet"

T_T

edit: maybe they were just newbies? i dont know

[Neomage]

OMG I R TEH 1337 DRK!!11!111one11!11eleventy-one1! MAGIK IS 4 N00BZ!

They where being idiots. All of the absorbs are incredibly useful, and they have a full MP pool sitting there. Even if they don't rest and/or get refresh, they should at least run it dry(with useful spells) before stoping casting. And saying they don't want to delay their swings between hits is nonsence, at they can do it at the start unless they get out a crossbow when the monster becomes visible(which I highly doubt)

[Mhurron]

Absorb-TP benefits them and lets them put up big numbers, The rest benefit them only a little or not at all (Absorb-MND for instance) and therefore is not worth their time since it will not let them put up big numbers.

A lot, seemingly an increasing amount, of players have very little clue and no wish to help others, even if it means they get something in the long run. If it doesn't benefit them directly by making them look awesomely powerful, they won't do it.

[Standablaze]

A lot of DRKS that level, myself included, dont have Absorb-DEX. AbTP is obviously useful, but I personally like using AbsAGI and AbsSTR the most.

Some DRKs dont use them, those DRKs are idiots, and shit at their job, to be blunt about it. The absorb spells and stun are one of the things that seperate us from bogstandard DD with no use but to deal numbers.

[queenuma]

I've encountered this too when levelling my rdm (pre abs-tp, haven't levelled my rdm since the update). I honestly couldn't believe that players had got to such levels without having any absorb spells.

I, on the other hand, made sure I had all the abs spells ready for when I hit the appropriate level. I always cast abs-agi at the start of the fight to lower the mobs evasion, abs-str before I use a weapon skill and abs-dex if needs be. I will also use abs-vit right at the end of a fight if I am the trick partner, so that I won't take too much damage when the thf gets back with the next mob.

[Nazo]

I don't get it either, my dark is only 42 but I always use at least 1 or 2 absorb spells per fight depending on the mob type. A mob with high def gets an absorb vit, a mob with high damage gets absorb str or absorb dex if we have a Nin tank etc. I don't understand people's unwillingness to do what is best for the party, sometimes it feels like we're winning in spite of each other rather than complementing each others' strengths.

I was in a merit party the other day with a drk. We didn't have anyone with ranged attack so we asked him to pull with poison or something. He was complaining that it was an 'inefficient' use of his mp. After about the 3rd time he whinged about it I pointed out that he wasn't using his mp for anything else (not even stun) and his mp was back at full by the end of the fight so what did it matter? At this point he suddenly started using spells in battle (probably just to spite me :p)

[Taebus]

Might have to step in an disagree here-

Absorb spells are great .....to a point.

Example; Last night, party in the new ToA Mt. Something; leader-drk (me), decked JP drg, decked brd, soso whm, blm, and nin tank.

We we're tearing through eruku crawlers (VI-IT) like you wouldn't believe, skillchain Drg Wheeling thrust >> My SATA spinslash either onto Drg or Nin (depending on how deep into the fight). Now this was drg was a tp machine with three equip sets, and pre-absorb tp I wouldn't have had a chance at keeping up. With it I was able to lead tp about 3/4 of the time, depending on any resists or poor/unlucky timings.

The point was this, what tore through these mobs was an awesome skillchain and mb. What tore through these mobs quickly was the fact the drg and I could pull 1-2 skillchains every single fight. Now Abs-agi is a great spell, but the time it takes to cast it can be equal to 13%tp and 100+ dmg, which often simply isn't worth it.

Now, when I was 25%+ tp above the drg I found abs-str was great for the sc, particularly in lowering Light SC damage resists, but with abs-tp every single fight it just wasn't mp efficient to open with abs-agi/dex/vit on the inc mob with no rdm (mages ballad II is good, but I only had it on for the 10 seconds between fights).

So though I love absorb spells, and have used every single one, there does come a point when they're not worth it. Of course, the drk you described just sounds like a noob, but hey, just one more fish in the sea.

[M_X]

The drks you incountered are idiot.

However, the only reason why I can see them not casting a absorb is if your party was killing the mobs so fast, they would have spent half the fight casting; I doubt this is the case though since it is incredibly rare.

That or you all were exping off the undead. Their resistance to dark magic doesn't make trying to stick a absorb worth it (depending on lvl range, gear, ect).

[Corthaemus]

I've never seen a drk land an absorb spell on an xp mob. It's always resisted. That may have something to do with the lack of use. If a mob resisted my spells that often, I wouldn't cast them either. Of course, it may also be that every drk I've been in pt with did not have their magic skill capped.

[Omni]

Heavy resist rates.
Absorb DEX isnt cheap.
If /thf, you need all the TP you can get and casting spells just takes away from your TP gain.
Need to save mp for stun, since RDMs have drk very low on their refresh list, you need to watch your mp. DRKs tend not to step back to get ballad either because that takes up 1 buff spot which can be used for minuet or madigral.

If you are sitting at 100+ TP and waiting on others, sure, try letting one off. However, other melee are usually waiting on drk for TP so wasting time on absorb spells that can have no effect is just not worth it sometimes.

[queenuma]

The drks you incountered are idiot.

However, the only reason why I can see them not casting a absorb is if your party was killing the mobs so fast, they would have spent half the fight casting; I doubt this is the case though since it is incredibly rare.

That or you all were exping off the undead. Their resistance to dark magic doesn't make trying to stick a absorb worth it (depending on lvl range, gear, ect).

I agree, if the party is speed killing such as Taebus's was, then there is no need to use abs spells. Also if you are fighting bats/undead where the drk is likely to get alot of resists, then it clearly isn't mp/time efficicent to cast absorbs but in a normal xp party situation drks should be using absorbs other than just abs-tp.

Whilst we're on the subject, I encountered a level 52 drk who didn't even have stun. I questioned him as to why he didn't seem have any spells at all and the response I received would of made most dark knights ashamed.

lolz drks r melee dmg not blm

[tdh]

I always cast Absorb-AGI, as it helps everybody. It can take a mob with High Evasion and drop them down to Low Evasion. I usually cast it on the pull, so as soon as it gets in range I start casting, and I can get it off before 1st Provoke with out any problem.

As far as high resist rates.... That's news to me. I land my spells 90%+ of the time, so I see it as always being useful. (And we don't EXP on Bats or Undead.) Being in a static, we get to pick our EXP spots, so we try to make sure we're killing things that have MP for me and the Mages to Aspir back, so that helps. Absorb-INT for Great Sword WS since I have plenty of STR I stack on for WS, and it helps with the MB as well. I sometimes use Absorb-STR for Vorpal Scythe but honestly it just delays the Skillchain, and I haven't seen any significant return from the lost of MP and the casting time.

I find that a handful of the spells are really useful. Absorb-AGI is a must, Absorb-STR for the DRK, maybe for the PLD, Absorb-VIT helps the melee, Absorb-INT helps Great Sword WS damage & MBs. But I have always stuck to AGI, STR, and INT.

I've always seen Absorb-DEX as a luxury. Have it just to have it, but there are other more useful spells. It would cut down on Crit hits Vs. the tank but I don't think I saw any DRK cast this in the 60's at all.

[Macht]

You know I could see one use for Absorb-MND. I mean if a DRK can use a decent X-Bow and Holy Bolt(Which I'm pretty positive they can) then they could get a decent amount of +MND equipment along with absorb-MND and get additional effect damage output that probably could put a RNG relying on MND and Holy Bolts to shame.

[Lmnop]

I've heard of Drk/nin or Drk/rng in Garlaige Citadel with Archer's knives, lots of R.acc gear, and holy bolts. This is nice since it's bats so the bolt part gets a damage bonus. And Abs-Mnd being level 31 is prime for just that. Granted, that's bats with hefty dark resistance... When fighting the beetles in there, though, you could always Abs-Mnd them so you have a Mnd Boost to your dmg against beetles and a piercing boost against bats. This would be even better with Xbow merits. >.>

[Lionheart]

Here's the deal with absorbs, I'm not picky about this or anything, but I won't absorb unless I get a regular refresh, which isn't always an option. (understandable). But I always drain when I can, makes the fights easier, and slightly makes me stronger (no reason not to). Another reason I think many don't drain is because their skill levels are low and drains will never hit. I use to be like this, I never used and drains so my skill level was really low. So I started usign Bio ( I think ) and stuff like that to raise it, now I drain all the time.

[Omni]

I wish my lawn was Emo so it would cut itself-

LOL, sorry for OT but your sig cracks me up

[Standablaze]

My own way of absorbing goes by opening the fight with Absorb STR, then Absorb AGI, and by the time that has been done, I'll get a good 50 back on TP if I time it right and it doesnt resist.

Absorbs do not resist every time or even close. If your dark magic is decent you will get decent absorbs. Mine resist maybe once every 5 uses which is quite considerable.

Reasons for STR and AGI (and sometimes VIT) is because it helps the whole party, absorb dex doesnt, it might help the tank a bit from taking too many criticals and thats it. Every dark should use absorbs, and leave enough mp left over for stun, its quite easy, especially in the new areas were you can get sanction refresh that can only help.

[Praetorian13]

I retired my 44 Drk awhile ago, but I would start every fight with an Absorb-MND to make the enfeebs stick better. After that i would use Absorb-VIT/STR( I never had Absorb-DEX...too expensive). A Drk is not just for high damage weapons, they also need to enfeeb and weaken the mob through spells. Anyway thats my opinion.:thumbsup:

[Magnus V.]

IMO,

Omni:

Heavy resist rates.
Absorb DEX isnt cheap.
If /thf, you need all the TP you can get and casting spells just takes away from your TP gain.
Need to save mp for stun, since RDMs have drk very low on their refresh list, you need to watch your mp. DRKs tend not to step back to get ballad either because that takes up 1 buff spot which can be used for minuet or madigral.

If you are sitting at 100+ TP and waiting on others, sure, try letting one off. However, other melee are usually waiting on drk for TP so wasting time on absorb spells that can have no effect is just not worth it sometimes.

Is completly right... I never use my Absorbs (Unless given a debuff i can counter with my absorbs) as im way to busy stunning and need the MP to stun.. if your dishing out absorbs for 30 + mp a spell with no refresh and no time to kneel youll hit 0 fast...

And if the mob readies AOE and you dont stun, party wont say "Oh its cause you were Absorbing ok, cool" nope more like "Where was stun?"

Yeah, Yeah BLM gets stun and so does BLU and your probably bound to have one... but I just dont trust others to stun effectively.. My secondary Macro set sits on stun so i have quick access and can stun quickly a BLM, BLU are always casting and dont have time...

Then there is the long casting.. thats a swing almost every spell... and with capped Dark i know you still see a pretty regular resist on IT's (Not to sure on > IT, as i gave up on seeing those... most people when i was xping drk wanted IT++)

So the first DRK seemed to do ok in my eyes, only time I throw out absorbs is if we miss alot it just put up defence or cocoon. They really arent spells to be used as debuffs.

[Omni]

right.
there is never enough people to stun. more the merrier.

i have yet to see a drk land an absorb tp on an xp mob.

[Aniero]

With the Absorb-TP addition I think the dark knights purpose has shifted slightly and I think we have the responsibility of TP control. I think some forget that Absorb-TP lowers the mobs TP as well, so we have to be conscious of TP gain and when the right time to absorb is.

My 2 cents abour Absorb spells is that every DRK should use them. If you're soloing stun or don't have a stun order then I could see how absorb spells could be dangerous but regardless the buffs they give me are noticable and the de-buffs can be extremely useful

[Tyros]

i have yet to see a drk land an absorb tp on an xp mob.

I very rarely get resisted when using absorb tp on exp mobs.

But then again it is may be dependent on the mobs you are fighting. Monsters such as Goblins, Imps, and Qutrub are all very Heavily dark resistant. But if we are fighting in the mire, I can always use it on flies.

Perhaps the DRK that you have been playing with don't have their dark magic skill sufficiently leveled. I know that before Absorb TP, there was a 4-5 level period where I just couldn't get my skill to cap, but then again, all I was doing was throwing out stun on gobbie bombs.

[John Doe III]

Heavy resist rates.
Absorb DEX isnt cheap.
If /thf, you need all the TP you can get and casting spells just takes away from your TP gain.
Need to save mp for stun, since RDMs have drk very low on their refresh list, you need to watch your mp. DRKs tend not to step back to get ballad either because that takes up 1 buff spot which can be used for minuet or madigral.
If you are sitting at 100+ TP and waiting on others, sure, try letting one off. However, other melee are usually waiting on drk for TP so wasting time on absorb spells that can have no effect is just not worth it sometimes.

Couldn't agree more.

[tdh]

With the Absorb-TP addition I think the dark knights purpose has shifted slightly and I think we have the responsibility of TP control. I think some forget that Absorb-TP lowers the mobs TP as well, so we have to be conscious of TP gain and when the right time to absorb is.

My 2 cents abour Absorb spells is that every DRK should use them. If you're soloing stun or don't have a stun order then I could see how absorb spells could be dangerous but regardless the buffs they give me are noticable and the de-buffs can be extremely usefulOnly problem here is that even if you pull back 80 to 90% TP from Absorb-TP, it's just a small drop in a very large bucket.

Consider that at the start of the fight you will generally have:


Dia - Does damage so here's 10% TP
Melee - 3 to 4 people landing their first hit. DRK alone feeds a mob 14 to 17 TP per hit
Elemental Debuffs - BLM casts 3 stackable debuffs, and gives the mob 30% TP. (Just dawned on me, do these do initial damage like Bio & Dia. This may be tossed out of consideration after verification.)
Mob's TP - mob lands 1 hit on the pull, and w/ a PLD, does damage at the start of the fight, so add another 7~20% TP depending on hits and mob's TP build.


So that's 10% from Dia, if there's a BRD who Requiems, add another 10%. PLD hits mob (10%), DRK hits mob (call it on the low side, 15%), WAR/NIN with Axes hits the mob (7~36% depending on DLY & Double attack.), and 3 Elemental Debuffs form the BLM (30%). In the first few moments of the fight, the party has given the mob a combined 79% to 131% if the WAR and DRK Double Attack out and depending on mob accuracy. It's gaining TP far too fast for Absorb-TP to make a whole lot of difference. So say you do pull back 40% TP, and the next volley of attacks goes in. 15% from DRK, 14% from WAR, 10% from BLM nukes and the mob hits the tank and gains 7~10% TP. It's already regained more TP than you stole from it.

That having been said, and getting back to the O.P, I think the change in Absorb spells casting may effect how many we cast.

I've had two EXP Parties since the update, and have come across the following.


If I get a poor Absorb-TP return (Like 7% or a full resist) I've only wasted 2 seconds and it doesn't hurt as much.
Absorb-AGI now coupled with Absorb-VIT. Helps everybody's accuracy as well as everybody's damage.
I can pull with a Ranged Attack, and Absorb-AGI and not be way behind right out of the gates.
And I wish Drain and Aspir had shorter casting times. ^^


I even toyed with casting Absorb-STR more often than I usually would have since I had more "time."

[Armando]

Minor corrections: Elemental debuffs and Requiems don't land for damage, so those don't count. A WAR/NIN's gonna be giving the mob around 9-10 TP per hit, much like a PLD. A DRK would give about 17-18. Your main point still stands, though, an EXP party practically force-feeds mobs TP by the buckets. A DRK could use Absorb-TP after his own second attack round and get back quite a bit.

Also bear in mind that mobs will never hold TP if their HP is below 20%. That's when Absorb-TP slows down the enemy's progress.

[tdh]

I was giving numbers on the low end purposely, so I figured my current Lv.60 Great Sword returns 11.8% TP. So let's just call it 12 for argument's sake, then add the 3% mobs get and call it 15%. And been so long since I leveled WAR, I can't remember what just 1 Axe returned, I just knew it would never be below 4% so I called it 7% after the "mob bonus." So on the very low end of the scale, the mob will still have plenty of TP to blow when it decides it's time to.

Thanks for clarifying Elemental Debuffs and Requiem. I thought Requiem did do initial damage, but wasn't sure about the Elemental Debuffs.

After having partied against Puks so much lately, I'm starting to question the accepted rule of when mob's use their TP. I've seen mobs use TP 3 seconds into the fight, and then follow it up almost immediately with another TP move all before they've lose 50% of their health. But I know that could very well be my perception since I hate ALL of Puk's TP moves. (Zephyr Mantle is the sign of the Devil. AoE Super-Flash would make any DRK cry. Aoe & Directional knock back move is another sign of the Devil.)

[Armando]

Eh, well, I don't know ^^; I've never seen a mob "break the rules" so far, so I don't know what to say.

[tdh]

Does a mob just use it's TP once it hits 300% then? Just seems like some mobs are using TP pretty early on in the fight, and that's what I meant. Maybe I'll have to look up how the AI decides to use it's TP then.

[Caspian]

I've seen them break the rules before. I've seen nearly back to back TP moves near the end of the mob's life. There were only three melee I think at that point and couldn't possibly have gotten enough TP for another move in that small amount of time. I don't know how much TP mobs get every time they make a successful strike though, but I doubt its 50% in two hits.
Also, go to Mount Zhayolm during firesday and pull an Eruca. One shot with an arrow and it would immediately use a TP move. Not just once, but every mob I pulled during the fire weather. I've never seen anything listed about it either. Have to check again and see if anyone has noticed and put it on the wiki.

EDIT: Yep, just pulled this off the wiki page:
During fire weather, when the volcano is active, they become much more powerful: they can start with 300% TP, have auto-regen, and Haste.

[Ridgual]

From a different view...

As a galka i gotta use my mp wisely, and the pt's most likely expecting that. Abs TP, Stun, Drain, and Aspir are obviously casted every fight (unless mob doesnt give mp on aspir). Since grabbing the Parade Gorget i've been casting Abs AGI at the beginning of the fight, casting my 4 main spells, and even getting an ABS Dex in the mix when i can. Do yourself a favor if your gonna take DRK up, get a parade gorget, and use the spells that help your party the most in your situation. Of course your open to using pretty much any spell you want if your RDM is refreshing you.

Also, as a galka, it seems that RDM are wayyyyyy more leaniant on refreshing me. Ive yet to be in a pt with a RDM where i wasnt refreshed every time i was in need. Maybe it was just a DRK loving RDM...Maybe my spell choices were very positive for the party....or maybe they just pity my pathetic mp... =D


One last thing....even if you dont use every absorb spell in every pt you join...buy them anyways. There is no reason not to have them, because every pt situation is different and you wanna be prepared for anything that you could do positively for the party.

[Malacite]

I haven't touched DRK in some time, but around the time I got ABS-STR I was blown away by it.

+12 (sometimes more) STR is absolutely brutal just prior to a WS. If a BLU is in the PT, ABS-VIT + Wild Oats can lead to some nasty stuff (through Dia II into the mix for kicks with Light Shot if u're lucky enough to have COR too)

[Eight]

Well I'm a 71 drk and i love my Absorbs and there very useful, but you go through a lot of mp using them and rdm dont like refreshing drk =/ So if i have a good rdm ill use them more offten but normaly rdm crys about have to do there job and dont like to ref more them the main heal and tank =/ so there you go

[Mhurron]

Beware the necropost!

[Thorsvald]

ok, I didn't see this mentioned in this thread so I'll mention it.
STR and MND are both 25% modifiers to guillotine. So if you haven't done this before, try using abs-mnd then WS guillotine, you should see a difference, and hmmmm....mabey thats way we get MND stats on our AF?!?!?!!?

[Sevv]

ok, I didn't see this mentioned in this thread so I'll mention it.
STR and MND are both 25% modifiers to guillotine. So if you haven't done this before, try using abs-mnd then WS guillotine, you should see a difference, and hmmmm....mabey thats way we get MND stats on our AF?!?!?!!?


Hory Shit its fricken Thor O.o;


This kid knows his Drk job.

[Mhurron]

Again:

Beware the necropost!

[Sevv]

Again:
Beware the necropost!


2 things thor posted today...



And it is the dark forums shouldn't necro be allowed i mean they are darks

[Mhurron]

And it is the dark forums shouldn't necro be allowed i mean they are darks
Emo != necro.

[Raydeus]

And DRKs are weak vs Undead.

[Sevv]

Emo != necro.


Wait wait wait ppl care about emos O.o

[Lmnop]

ok, I didn't see this mentioned in this thread so I'll mention it.
STR and MND are both 25% modifiers to guillotine. So if you haven't done this before, try using abs-mnd then WS guillotine, you should see a difference, and hmmmm....mabey thats way we get MND stats on our AF?!?!?!!?

Useful if you've already done Abs-STR (or plan to next). But just Abs-MND won't garner as good of results unless you're also doing it so a RDM can more easily land enfeebles.

[Thorsvald]

Useful if you've already done Abs-STR (or plan to next). But just Abs-MND won't garner as good of results unless you're also doing it so a RDM can more easily land enfeebles.

I think your kinda missing the point.

[Callisto]

I <3 Abs-MND and Abs-VIT as RDM/DRK. I like to do MND before my debuff cycle, and I use VIT alot while solo to add a boost to my WS damage. I wish I had STR or INT as /DRK though; ;

[hongman]

I've seen them break the rules before. I've seen nearly back to back TP moves near the end of the mob's life. There were only three melee I think at that point and couldn't possibly have gotten enough TP for another move in that small amount of time. I don't know how much TP mobs get every time they make a successful strike though, but I doubt its 50% in two hits.
Also, go to Mount Zhayolm during firesday and pull an Eruca. One shot with an arrow and it would immediately use a TP move. Not just once, but every mob I pulled during the fire weather. I've never seen anything listed about it either. Have to check again and see if anyone has noticed and put it on the wiki.

EDIT: Yep, just pulled this off the wiki page:

Im just skimmin this thread but Thanks Caspian!

I actually called a GM when partying there, as we saw a *fresh* pop, and before me had even touched it, half the PT was dead from that TP move they do.

We were all like - thats impossible - GM said he would look into it, never got a reply.

Craziness!

[Tipsy]

ABS-MND is hardly worth the MP. Although Guilo has a _25% MND mod, MND isn't a melee attribute so it contributes insignificantly to Guilo's damage. I think the MND contributes mostly to the Silence effect.

In my opinion, I would suggest never using ABS-MND for Guillotine, it's a waste of MP that you can save for something better / more useful.

[Lmnop]

I think your kinda missing the point.

Then I would appreciate it if you explained your point.

Yes, you have some +MND on some of your AF. Maybe enough to increase Guillotine by about 4 damage. But no matter how much STR you have, it'll always be more useful to equip STR gear than MND gear. Thus, Abs-STR will always take precedence.

[Aeni]

I remember when I was in Sky and the party I was in (We were farming the pop items and had to clear the room so it was also an informal exp outing) told me to sub WAR. I don't think the mobs there lasted long enough to even get any Abs off. Basically a big waste of time in TP burn situations as well (Exception to this is Abs-TP)

At the low levels, I used to use Abs-AGI all the time, adding in Abs-STR when I used my WSs and Abs-DEX when we had a pally tank (Traditional parties, long before ToAU came out)

[Evion]

Not a big fan of DRK... They're supposed to be the best DDs, but they can't land a hit worth a crap. My opinion....

[Lmnop]

unfortunately, Evion, that's a misconception. One that most people (even DRKs) share. Dark Knights have the same accuracy as Samurai and Warriors. That is to say, the same native DEX, all 3 jobs have A+ ranked weapons (though Warriors tend to use A-), and very similar gear options.

The difference? Samurai have Store TP, Zanshin, and the all mighty Meditate; Dark Knights have Abs-TP, and Warriors have Double Attack and Aggressor. Technically, Warriors have the least means of gaining tp, yet they're the class no one ever complains about acc-wise. Probably 'cuz they're ZOMGDualwielding and that's so bad ass that no one dares attack it's viability.

If anyone thinks that job X is inferior to job Y, seems to me like you're not willing to challenge yourself. If you really feel that way about a job, then you should be leveling the supposed weak job and trying to prove "the accepted" beliefs wrong.

[Armando]

I partied with a couple of DRKs before I had to go on another hiatus due to taking Calculus II in the summer. I wasn't disappointed. Absorb-TP is a wonderful thing, and so is Souleater when used right.

[Guren]

unfortunately, Evion, that's a misconception. One that most people (even DRKs) share. Dark Knights have the same accuracy as Samurai and Warriors. That is to say, the same native DEX, all 3 jobs have A+ ranked weapons (though Warriors tend to use A-), and very similar gear options.

The difference? Samurai have Store TP, Zanshin, and the all mighty Meditate, Dark Knights have Abs-TP, and Warriors have Double Attack and Aggressor. Technically, Warriors have the least means of gaining tp, yet they're the class no one ever complains about acc-wise. Probably 'cuz they're ZOMGDualwielding and that's so bad assthat no one dares attack it's viability.

If anyone thinks that job X is inferior to job Y, seems to me like you're not willing to challenge yourself. If you really feel that way about a job, then you should be leveling the supposed weak job and trying to prove "the accepted" beliefs wrong.

I appload you and thank you. I 125% agree!

[Aeni]

unfortunately, Evion, that's a misconception. One that most people (even DRKs) share. Dark Knights have the same accuracy as Samurai and Warriors. That is to say, the same native DEX, all 3 jobs have A+ ranked weapons (though Warriors tend to use A-), and very similar gear options.

DRK and SAM both share something in common. They can go on those mean streaks of whiffing. Huzzah! (The toughest levels for my DRK were around 64/65 and then again at 70/71 ... omg those were the lamest levels ever)

[IfritnoItazura]

Well, at certain levels, they may be using this tool (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Barbarian%27s_Scythe), which would lower their accuracy slightly...

Edit:

Forgot to say: I leveled DRK to Lv.42, parsed most of it, didn't notice accuracy trouble beyond not capping Scythe and Great Sword. Static'ed with a DRK on RDM in Lv.50's. No accuracy problem there, either. DRK's accuracy problem is mostly a myth--it's no worse than other melee jobs.

[Thorsvald]

Then I would appreciate it if you explained your point.

Yes, you have some +MND on some of your AF. Maybe enough to increase Guillotine by about 4 damage. But no matter how much STR you have, it'll always be more useful to equip STR gear than MND gear. Thus, Abs-STR will always take precedence.

Scythe WS 100% 200% 300% Hits Secondary Attributes TP Adjustment
Slice 1.50 1.75 2.00 STR_30%
Nightmare Scythe 1.00 STR_30% MND_30% blind
Spinning Scythe 1.00 STR_30% attack radius
Vorpal Scythe 1.00 STR_35% critical chance
Guillotine 0.875 4 STR_25% MND_25% silence
Cross Reaper 2.00 2.25 2.50 2 STR_30% MND_30%
Spiral Hell 1.375 1.875 3.625 STR_50% INT_50%

It's pretty simple really. If you note above Nightmare Scythe, Guillotine and Cross Reaper have MND as a modifyer.

If your increase is only 4, your not hitting very hard in the first place.

[Sevv]

/pokes thor with a stick

sup buddy.

[Armando]

Not to be rude, but do some research on the damage formulas. A 25% stat mod is laughable, doubly so when it doesn't contribute to your damage in any other way. Thieves have a 40% CHR mod on Dancing Edge and they ignore CHR altogether. Stopping to cast Absorb-MND just to throw out a Guillotine means blowing 33 MP to get 10-15 extra damage at best, which is going to be offset by those 2 seconds it took you to cast Absorb-MND in the first place.

There's more to WS's than their stat mods. In fact, stat mods are the least influential factor in any WS.

[IfritnoItazura]

Scythe WS 100% 200% 300% Hits Secondary Attributes TP Adjustment
Guillotine 0.875 4 STR_25% MND_25% silence

It's pretty simple really. If you note above Nightmare Scythe, Guillotine and Cross Reaper have MND as a modifyer.

If your increase is only 4, your not hitting very hard in the first place.

Guillotine is a 4 hit WS, and secondary modifiers only applies to the first of those 4 hits, IIRC.

You're crazy if you're not worried about Accuracy first (to land as many hits as possible), then attack/STR (which helps each of those 4 hits to land harder). Keep in mind that STR counts once in the fSTR, and yet again as secondary modifier, while Attack helps out with the pDIF.

MND is, at best, a distant third on the list of concerns.

[Omni]

I love how ppl still, even now look at modifiers and think oh boy! mnd modifier?! that means the WS its 25% based off your mnd stat!

Like others have said, when it comes to pure dmg and increasing dmg, STR and ATK will always always do more for you than any of those secondary modifiers will. Those modifiers are misleading.

If the modifier is already STR then thats great, but just because it says MND or CHR or WTF, doesnt mean you get some magical boost of 25% because you throw in some MND gear or something.

For multi hit skills, ACC is also just as important if not more than STR/ATK. Missing 1 hit can make more of a difference than a +15STR boost.

[Tipsy]

I'm pretty sure the MND modification only affects Guillotine's Silence effect...

[Taskmage]

Nah, regardless of whatever else, a weaponskill's secondary modifiers are added to your weapon's damage rating when calculating the damage for the first hit. Mnd affecting the accuracy of the silence effect makes some sense, but I don't know if it actually does.

[Brayden]

There was a pretty extensive test done a while back, I think it was on KI, that showed MND did indeed contribute to the dmg output of a WS like guillotine. However, as many have said above, the secondary modifier isnt as important overall as the first.

[Susurrus]

To the DRKs from a RDM:

I believe a lot of time y'all don't get refreshed at all is because RDMs commonly see DRKs not casting spells AT ALL. So when the RDM parties with a DRK, they disregard them as needing refresh because in most parties they actually don't.

It's not usually the RDM being inconsiderate/stupid/mean/etc, its just they're usually going off of what they have learned from past experiences with DRKs.

I know from my own point of view this has happened and once I realized they were actually using their mp, started throwing them in my refresh cycle.

[Taskmage]

Agreed. I personally put anyone who has mp on my refresh cycle by default, but if the cycle comes back around and you're still sitting at full mp, you get skipped that round. Few things make me happier than to see a pld or a drk or heck a whm justifying their refresh.

[Aeni]

Tipsy is right, I'm also certain that the MND modifier only works on the effect that guillotine has (Which is also what the TP does as well) which is silence. Doesn't matter if I have 20 MND or 100 MND, use it at 100% TP or 300% TP, guillotine is just a strong WS because of the four hit potential and when subbing a WAR, the possibilities of double attack and criticals going off on those hits makes it even better.

To the DRKs from a RDM:

I believe a lot of time y'all don't get refreshed at all is because RDMs commonly see DRKs not casting spells AT ALL. So when the RDM parties with a DRK, they disregard them as needing refresh because in most parties they actually don't.

I can also make generalizations, but I rather not.

Coming from a DRK + RDM (2 separate toons mind you) I can honestly say that most DRKs do not bother casting BECAUSE of the plethora of lazy mages. Case in fact? In the absence of a DRK, you find RDMs still not refreshing the PLD, WHM, BLM, SMN, etc. So, what kind of excuses are you going to give on that?

When you've gone for a long time being at the bottom of a refresh list and most of the time forgotten, of course you'll ration your MP. For the most part, they are obviously saving stun ... which is a life saver against many monster TP moves out there which has an aoe component. For that measly ~20-30mp (can't recall atm, haven't played my DRK much in ages) you potentially save 100-200mp worth of heals and possible wipe in some situations (goblin bomb toss)

[Tipsy]

When you've gone for a long time being at the bottom of a refresh list and most of the time forgotten, of course you'll ration your MP.

Exactly. It becomes second nature when you're a dark knight to use your MP wisely. If you've never played DRK to 75, it's really hard to understand -without experience- on how we get pushed aside as a melee and not someone worth refreshing.

However, there are times when you have very competant RDMs in your group, and there are times, like Aeni said, where you don't. Just like any job.

[Armando]

Nay, MND does affect its damage. But when it takes about 5-6 MND to get a 1 DMG increase which translates into about 8 more damage on a good Guillotine, it's easy to think it's not helping.

[Aaramis]

"However, there are times when you have very competant RDMs in your group, and there are times, like Aeni said, where you don't. Just like any job."

Having both DRK and RDM above 50, I can see both sides of the coin in this argument.
However, I can assure you that as a RDM, competency isn't the issue. It's about prioritizing.

Refresh costs 40 MP. It returns 150 MP.
So if I refresh myself + 3 others, I'm actually losing MP. Not to mention the extra MP lost due to enfeebles, MBs, cures, etc.

And let's be honest here, ensuring the RDM, WHM and PLD have MP is more important to the party's survival then making sure the DRK has MP.

So it all depends on the PT makeup, IMO.
If there's only 2 or 3 people with MP, then I'll gladly refresh the DRK.
In slightly more MP-based PTs, I may only give DRK Refresh every 2 or 3 cycles (i.e. once every 10min or so).

But if it's a group where *everyone* has MP and is begging for Refresh, then I have to prioritize.
And with a job that access to Refresh items as early as lvl 50 (Parade Gorget), DRK isn't the #1 concern.

But yes, I do try to Refresh DRK when I can. Same with BLU. They're just not #1 priority.

On the flip side, as mentioned above, absorbs cost a fair amount of MP. If you abs-AGI, TP, and STR all in one battle, that's 90MP gone. And almost double that if you have to Stun a lot.
So even if you Aspir as often as possible, you'll be out of MP in 2 or 3 fights. Which makes Sanction Refresh (and most seem to go for Sanction - food duration instead) or Parade Gorgets or those items a necessity.
*OR*, the DRK can save most MP for just Stun and abs-TP, which will make his/her MP last longer and require less downtime for the PT.
It all depends.

[DakAttack]

Well, at certain levels, they may be using this tool (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Barbarian%27s_Scythe), which would lower their accuracy slightly...

Edit:

Forgot to say: I leveled DRK to Lv.42, parsed most of it, didn't notice accuracy trouble beyond not capping Scythe and Great Sword. Static'ed with a DRK on RDM in Lv.50's. No accuracy problem there, either. DRK's accuracy problem is mostly a myth--it's no worse than other melee jobs.

It wasn't always a myth. Back in the day one of your only sources of Accuracy was the Life Belt, because Sushi didn't exist. Most Dark Knights were still using Scythes all the way up until sixty or so, and the scythe had a huge delay. Missing three times in a row was huge.

[IfritnoItazura]

the scythe had a huge delay. Missing three times in a row was huge.

Not to say missing a few times in a row has no impact, but, really, delay of weapon has nothing to do with accuracy. You're confusing the effect of inaccuracy (less "even" DoT) on large delay weapon with accuracy (% of time swings connect) itself.

I was addressing the issue of DRK's accuracy with two-handed Sword and Scythe, and only that.

[Tipsy]

Aramis: I understand your arguement, but, don't find it necessary to Refresh the DRK every fight. All we need is 1 or 2 every 6 fights or so..(at end game maybe 1 or 2 every 10~) if that. Like you said, Sanction / Parade gorget / Plastron or what not, helps a great deal, but a refresh to help us along every chain or so, isn't too much to ask. And yes, it all depends on the party setup.


Also, I agree with alot of what you're saying except,

However, I can assure you that as a RDM, competency isn't the issue.

Alot of times it is the issue. You might be a competent RDM using priority in different situations but, some RDMs don't even believe in refreshing DRKs. There have been lots of times where I asked for refresh and either a; never got it or b; got an answer like "Wow, I've never had to refresh a DRK before." or "I'm not used to refreshing DRKs." something along those lines. So competency is an issue, to an extent.

[DakAttack]

Not to say missing a few times in a row has no impact, but, really, delay of weapon has nothing to do with accuracy. You're confusing the effect of inaccuracy (less "even" DoT) on large delay weapon with accuracy (% of time swings connect) itself.

I was addressing the issue of DRK's accuracy with two-handed Sword and Scythe, and only that.

I'm not confusing anything. If you're swinging half as many times per fight as the person next to you, who has just as much accuracy as you do, and you miss two or three times in a row it's going to seem a lot worse than if the person who swinging twise as fast misses just as much.

[IfritnoItazura]

I'm not confusing anything. If you're swinging half as many times per fight as the person next to you, who has just as much accuracy as you do, and you miss two or three times in a row it's going to seem a lot worse than if the person who swinging twise as fast misses just as much.

I don't disagree that it would "seem a lot worse", but why should I care about the appearance? I care about what is.

A DRK's DoT output is: (attack rate) x (avg. dmg per hit) x (Accuracy).

That accuracy is not less than other melees. Those who say the accuracy is less bought into the myth/lie/misconception. Those who confuse the "appearance" or the attack rate with accuracy is just... confused. :P

Edit:

This is the original statement:
DRK's accuracy problem is mostly a myth--it's no worse than other melee jobs

Notice that it doesn't talk about "appearance" anywhere; it was a simple statement about accuracy, and only accuracy.

[DakAttack]

A DRK's DoT output is: (attack rate) x (avg. dmg per hit) x (Accuracy).


That's theoretical. If you flip a coin 100 times it's not going to be 50 heads and 50 tails.

[Omni]

It matters that it 'seems slower' because in essence, for melee every battle is a race to 100 tp to ws the mob to death.

So if you're not able to tp to 100 each fight consistantly and use a ws you -are- missing out because your pt depends on your weaponskill to take a nice chunk of hp from the mob which allows you to push and maintain high chains.

This isnt to say that missing a ws chance one fight out of 50 will have a huge impact but if you continually have trouble to ws every fight it begins to show in your pt's performance.

[IfritnoItazura]

That's theoretical.
"Statistical" is a better word.

If you're a "statistic skeptic", you can just level up DRK from scratch (roll a new character if you have to). Equip it well, and keep an eye on the parser.

I did that, and kept a close eye on the actual accuracy measured. What did the measurements say? About the same accuracy as other melees, if they have similar gears (save weapons) and food.

* * *

I leveled DRK to 42 long before the two-handed weapon update. My DRK usually was not the top DD when party had other well equipped melees. But, I didn't have accuracy problem--the parser said I was keeping up with other melee in accuracy.

If you want to say that it's a problem back then that DRK output lower damage than similarly geared DD jobs, that's one thing. However, the claim of low accuracy is baseless, and false.

[Murphie]

Wasn't Dak's whole point that DRK used to have problems pre-Sushi? I'm almost certain I saw him mention it.

Honestly though, I'm really not that invested in this discussion. I like DRK, and think it's fine.

[IfritnoItazura]

I thought his point was "[DRK's accuracy problem] wasn't always a myth"?

DRK's accuracy problem before sushi... er... Was that any different from SAM's or WAR's or any melee's accuracy problems? I don't seem to recall they had access to that many more accuracy gear or possessed some innate accuracy traits.

It's one thing to point out accuracy problem in pre-sushi days, but it's quite another to say it was DRK's problem.

[Taskmage]

I think Dak's point, put statistically, is that drks have a lower tp consistency because of the lower swing rate. If you flip a coin 100 times, you're most likely going to come up with a number of heads close to 50, since actual results tend to normalize toward statistical means as the sample group grows larger. If you flip a coin four or five times and come up with only one heads, you're still within statistical normalcy but the result has the appearance of a lower likelyhood of heads occuring. Thus, since a drk swings less often in a given amount of time than another 1H DD and hasn't until now had the means to smooth over their TP rate that sams and drgs have always had, they have the appearance of a lower consistency on TP gain, and thus lower accuracy, even though their to-hit rate averages out the same.

And if that wasn't Dak's point, then I claim it as my point.

[Murphie]

I think Dak's point, put statistically, is that drks have a lower tp consistency because of the lower swing rate. If you flip a coin 100 times, you're most likely going to come up with a number of heads close to 50, since actual results tend to normalize toward statistical means as the sample group grows larger. If you flip a coin four or five times and come up with only one heads, you're still within statistical normalcy but the result has the appearance of a lower likelyhood of heads occuring. Thus, since a drk swings less often in a given amount of time than another 1H DD and hasn't until now had the means to smooth over their TP rate that sams and drgs have always had, they have the appearance of a lower consistency on TP gain, and thus lower accuracy, even though their to-hit rate averages out the same.

And if that wasn't Dak's point, then I claim it as my point.It's a pretty good point. I'm glad there are some people around here who can be bothered to do math. Because I so can't.

[IfritnoItazura]

Heh. I already covered that with a wave of hand and the wording of "less 'even' DoT".

Can we now agree that there was/is no "DRK accuracy problem", but rather a "TP gain consistency" problem from preference for high delay weapons?

(Also, keep in mind back then, high delay weapon also suffered from lower TP/delay ratios, so getting enough TP for SC was not only a consistency problem. None of that had anything to do with DRK's accuracy, of course.)

[Tipsy]

Really, none of this matters anymore. DRK has so many ways of countering the slow weapon aspect to get TP faster, that it's really not a problem, at all. And SE, apparently, is working on it too. Maybe one day we'll see 2handed weapons as good as war/nins' or mnks/wars' DoT

[DakAttack]

I took statistics! I know all about these coins and pulling socks out of drawers while wearing blindfolds. It's madness.

If I said or it sounded like I was saying Dark Knights have it worse when it comes to Accuracy I was wrong. I was pointing more towards how the myth came about, whether or not I did it well. Being a two-hander, I know first-hand what it's like to be at 40% TP when the Thf/Nin is as 100%, and even though I may have just as much Accuracy, my problem is my delay and a stroke of bad luck.

Taskmage summarized it quite nicely. In any given fight we, as two-handers, don't have the opportunity to approach our accuracy's statistical mean. Though dual-wielders don't either, they come closer nonetheless.

Everybody would have 100% TP at the same time if our TP per hit were functions of both delay and accuracy.

[Guren]

Dark Knights that don't use -Absorb- *Insert stat here* are not newbies but, are Warriors!

Lol.

[Lmnop]

'k

[IfritnoItazura]

Also, as a galka, it seems that RDM are wayyyyyy more leaniant on refreshing me. Ive yet to be in a pt with a RDM where i wasnt refreshed every time i was in need. Maybe it was just a DRK loving RDM...Maybe my spell choices were very positive for the party....or maybe they just pity my pathetic mp... =D

As a RDM, though, I have to say most DRKs aren't worth paying attention much of the time, when it comes to Refresh.

I'd toss out a Refresh when they are 100 MP down. Two cycles later, they are swinging away with a full MP bar... If a DRK isn't using up the 150 MP from the Refresh in two cycles, he might as well just live on Sanction's and/or Parade Gorget's refresh so I can save my MP for other things.

* * *

To those "I melee!" DRKs: I'm not giving you Refresh so you have one more pretty status icon to look at. Cast spells, people. :vent:

At a minimum, make full use of Absorb-TP, Stun, and Drain I/II. Heck, skill up with a Poison every other fight if you want, just don't cast Bio II over my Dia II.

[Zepp3]

Sometimes absorbs arent always the best for instance if ur fighting bats, drain and aspir does like nothing. And drains arent always that great on high level monsters but still to not have any... wow

[Omni]

Really, none of this matters anymore. DRK has so many ways of countering the slow weapon aspect to get TP faster, that it's really not a problem, at all. And SE, apparently, is working on it too. Maybe one day we'll see 2handed weapons as good as war/nins' or mnks/wars' DoT

your wish came true.