E-baying loser! [Archive] - Final Fantasy XI :: Dreams in Vana'diel

Vair

08-02-2006, 05:55 AM

While I do not approve of what he's doing, there may be a reason why he's doing it.

Reason why I think it might be OK- Perhaps he's broke, can't pay the bills, has to feed his family, etc. In this case it's fine by me to sell ones account. Real life is much more important than FFXI. And if you have to break some game rules to keep it running it's totally fine by me.

Reasons why it's wrong- This is a form of RMT and that's the primary reason. BUT there are others.

I.) You're introducing a player into the community who knowing NOTHING about FFXI. And it's highly probable that he's introducing yet another gilbuyer into our midst.
II.) People who might have once respected you are going to lose all of that respect in a flash.
III.) C'mon, it's just stupid.

What's going to happen: The guy who buys the account ((when and if it is ever bought)) is going to be reported in less than an hour after he logs on for the first time and he's going to get banned. He's going to demand his money back. A thousand dollars is a lot of money and might even result in a law-suit. Who knows?

Kailea

08-02-2006, 06:04 AM

Vair

08-02-2006, 06:09 AM

why would he be reported? as long as je does not say out right he bought the account, he cant be banned, you can prove he bought it. Yeah I do a gree though I hate high level noobs, and selling your account for any reason, makes those players. Is why I wont sell my account when I am done, unless it is to a semi-close friend taht I know has some form of common since

I dunno becuase I hardly ever report anyone, but maybe there's some way to refer SE to that link? You know.. keep him on notice. Plus it's out there, people know that he's selling his account. Someone's going to know unless he was a total hermit and didn't have any friends.

Lasswyn

08-02-2006, 06:23 AM

You can report it to eBay through a link at the bottom of the page. I'd do it, but I've lost my eBay password. (._.)a Probably in a drawer somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Freyr

08-02-2006, 06:25 AM

Zamphire

08-02-2006, 06:38 AM

You would think square would have something setup to detect this easily.

1. When the Name, Address, credit card info changes.
2. When a person that has been using the same group of IP address thru his local ISP for years, suddenly changes to one coming from a different state or county. This should atleast raise a eyebrow.

If both of those things happen it just screams sold account.

You lost my credit card had to get a new one. You (female) get's married, name changed. Hell, I got tired of my name and went to the court house and changed it. Moved to a new house, this would also change IP. I get tired of my ISP and upgrade to a new one. There's alot of reason why all these things could happen, and the amount of people that this happens to per day would require ALOT of man power to monitor.

RunningDemon

08-02-2006, 06:43 AM

Dragonly

08-02-2006, 06:47 AM

Reason why I think it might be OK- Perhaps he's broke, can't pay the bills, has to feed his family, etc. In this case it's fine by me to sell ones account. Real life is much more important than FFXI. And if you have to break some game rules to keep it running it's totally fine by me.

If thats the case he shouldn't be paying for FFXI in the first place. This is just some guy quitting trying to get his money back seems like a good idea but it's not.

Murphie

08-02-2006, 07:15 AM

Why am I not suprised to see Kailea taking the opposite view that I have on any post I have anymore? Guess Kailea supports breaking the ToS.

Why is it bad to point out some moron selling his character (against ToS), offering to teach the buyer to pretend to be him, and not returning gear his current HNMLS (not mine) helped get him?It's not a bad thing at all. Unfortunately though, the only loser here is the guy who actually buys the account. The seller makes off like a bandit with some cash and no worries.

Freyr

08-02-2006, 07:16 AM

You lost my credit card had to get a new one.
Name, Address, IP stay the same.

You (female) get's married, name changed.
Name and credit card should be the same minus the last name.

Hell, I got tired of my name and went to the court house and changed it.
Address, IP stay the same.

Moved to a new house, this would also change IP.
Name and Credit Card should stay the same.

I get tired of my ISP and upgrade to a new one.
Name, Address, Credit Card stay the same.

There's alot of reason why all these things could happen, and the amount of people that this happens to per day would require ALOT of man power to monitor.
Not really it can be done automatically.

Vair

08-02-2006, 07:25 AM

If thats the case he shouldn't be paying for FFXI in the first place. This is just some guy quitting trying to get his money back seems like a good idea but it's not.

I didn't think it was actually feesable to play FFXI and have major money problems until it happened to me. I manage to squeeze out just enough to play FFXI and have a few extra bucks left over. Now, I'm not saying that I would do the same, but I've known a few people who lost their jobs and had to make money quick.

You also have to consider this: Random unpredictability. Anything can happen at the drop of the hat. Hell, the sun could explode right now without a reason other than it just did. My point being: He could need money fast and easily for any reason.

But I really don't doubt that you're right.

Zamphire

08-02-2006, 07:39 AM

Name, Address, IP stay the same.

Name and credit card should be the same minus the last name.

Address, IP stay the same.

Name and Credit Card should stay the same.

Name, Address, Credit Card stay the same.

Not really it can be done automatically.

It could be detected automatically, but then a human would have to go through and investigate it.

Yes, in most of the cases I gave only one thing changes, but they could all change at once, and did to me two weeks ago. My mom's name is on my account, because I was 17 at the time and couldn't get the account to myself. She got married, two weeks ago and we moved, she also lost her credit card in the move. So her name changed, our ISP changed, and our address changed. When you sell an account the only thing that the person changes is the billing information, and as far as I know, it's not against the ToS for someone else to pay for your account, so it's fully legal to completly change the billing address whenever you want.

Jenifa

08-02-2006, 07:41 AM

5) Member of the second best HNMLS in Seraph (you will contact me and i will tell you how to pass off as me easily):

rofl

must be a real bad player or must be a real bad LS if "I will tell you how to pass off as me easily". generally people in HNMLS know their job pretty well and the jobs of others too. If a complete noob buys this account, I think it may be far from "easily" to pass on the information needed without his LS working out its someone who has never played before..

Murphie

08-02-2006, 07:53 AM

I'm kind of curious which LS.

Icemage

08-02-2006, 08:00 AM

I'm kind of curious which LS.

Does it really matter? All HNMLS I know routinely break the pearls of any member who has sold an account.

Besides, you really can't just step into someone else's shoes in a decent HNMLS because people will notice you haven't got a clue what you're doing, unless you're already an established player with that job (at which point why are you buying an account?).

Icemage

Grizzlebeard

08-02-2006, 08:03 AM

There is no excuse for ever selling your account and this bullshit certain posters say about getting some money for your work just portrays you all as hypocritical, greedy, and immoral. Sharing account information is against the ToS, therefore, selling your account is in breach of the ToS. Simple, understand?

To the others who'd say, "When I quit I won't care about the game anymore so I don't care if an RMT buys my account!" well, all I can say to that is gfy yourself you short-sighted, selfish prick! I hope all your ingame friends discover the true person behind the character before they waste countless hours helping you pimp out your gear so you can secure a better selling price.

What kind of people do you think buys an account? Someone who really wants to play the game the way it was meant to be played or someone who:
a) is going to buy copious amounts of gil to go with their new $1000 toon;
b) has had a character banned for using bots/cheats/hacks and needs a new toon to work with;
c) is a gilfarmer looking for a levelled and flagged new little wage earner?

Kailea, on one hand your lips are firmly placed on S-E's backside and yet you condone RMT and account selling. How do you reconcile these two opposing views?

Murphie

08-02-2006, 08:03 AM

No, it doesn't really matter. That's why I said "I'm kind of curious", not "I'm dying to know". I know a fair number of the LS's on Seraph, and when something unusual happens there, my curiosity is piqued.

But thanks for your response regardless, Icemage. You know I always value your input.

RunningDemon

08-02-2006, 08:04 AM

I dunno if the guys from the LS in question want the name given, but they know about it cause I got the link off their public boards.

Murphie

08-02-2006, 08:06 AM

Well, since the buyer won't be a member of the LS anymore, I suppose it doesn't matter one way or the other.

Personally, if I were in an endgame LS that had helped me get a bunch of stuff, I'd likely either:

1.) Give everything not Rare/Ex back to the LS to distribute as they choose and delete.

2.) Give the account to a friend or perhaps the LS shellholder to continue to use to help the LS.

Zamphire

08-02-2006, 08:11 AM

2.) Give the account to a friend or perhaps the LS shellholder to continue to use to help the LS.

This would be against ToS and also illegal. It'd fall in the same catagory as selling an account because in both cases you are sharing your info.

Linra

08-02-2006, 08:18 AM

I could never sell my accounts to any game I've ever played. Sure it's against the rules and that also plays a small factor. But my personal main reason is, I'm a really nice person, I get along with a lot of people. I make a name for myself by who I am and what I do. I make lots of friends and put a lot of work into my characters. I really honest to God don't want someone else that isn't my boyfriend, running around with my name. I've become extremely attached to my name because I made it about 6 years ago when I was in Jr High. It was completely unique with no outside influence and I even google'd it and got 0 results...at least when I first made it.

Sadly that's also a reason I just can't pull myself to give my character away even to friends and guild members x.x

Little off-topic, but yeah selling your account is a no-no.

Grizzlebeard

08-02-2006, 08:32 AM

I feel the same Linra. My posting name of Grizzlebeard is from my EQ character I created back in 1999 and it is still unsold and undeleted to this present day. My FFXI toon, Releaser, I deleted early this year when I could have easily took the greedy route and sold it. Regardless of board personas, I make damned sure my character name ingame remains above reproach at all times and I'd hate to think someone else was playing using my name and destroying the good reputation it took so long to build.

DakAttack

08-02-2006, 09:12 AM

I could never sell Dak, no matter how much I needed the money. It'd be like selling a part of me, and selling the part of me that everybody has to come to know. It seems simple on the outside, but how can I sell other people's knowledge of me?

Murphie

08-02-2006, 09:12 AM

This would be against ToS and also illegal. It'd fall in the same catagory as selling an account because in both cases you are sharing your info.Agreed. But people share accounts all the time (siblings, spouses) and that's kind of what I would consider this.

Hamlet

08-02-2006, 09:29 AM

Wow, that is one really expensive index card.

Kailea

08-02-2006, 09:30 AM

RunningDemon

08-02-2006, 09:39 AM

I think the "dont share your account" is just a precoution so you cant complain about getting your account stolen. I see nothign wrong with shareing your account with a trusted friend, but all the ones i have already play so there is no reason for me to share, and I also do not wish to ever sell my account, but I do understand why some do it. and RD, stop trying to pick a fight with me and go harass someone else on your server

Waitwaitwait, what do we have here? Second post in this thread! And I am the one picking a fight?

*sigh* really, RunningDemon can you just stop -.-

I don't have a problem with people from other servers commenting on the whole account selling thing. I have a problem with you making snide little remarks towards me Kailea because you feel you were wronged when you couldn't follow the rules the admins set, and take it upon yourself to bug me whenever you see a post, not to mention how you appear to be giving negative Rep to me for every post you see me do in the list thread.

I'm not picking a fight here, you've been making smartass little comments and taking childish actions towards me for quite some time now.

Back on topic, account selling bad!

Kailea

08-02-2006, 09:42 AM

Waitwaitwait, what do we have here? Second post in this thread! And I am the one picking a fight?

I don't have a problem with people from other servers commenting on the whole account selling thing. I have a problem with you making snide little remarks towards me Kailea because you feel you were wronged when you couldn't follow the rules the admins set, and take it upon yourself to bug me whenever you see a post, not to mention how you appear to be giving negative Rep to me for every post you see me do in the list thread.

I'm not picking a fight here, you've been making smartass little comments and taking childish actions towards me for quite some time now.

Back on topic, account selling bad!

childish? yeah what ever, and I have not touched your REP, I dont mess nor care about my or anyones REP, I think I only rated you down once, and that was a while vack when you started this bull

selling is ok ONLY if you are quiting for good and dont plan on coming back

RunningDemon

08-02-2006, 09:48 AM

Call me not trusting, but when I see someone like you who loves to argue, then gets yelled at by admins for doing it in a thread where it did not belong, then decides to argue the same point over and over again with me in PMs, then I mysteriously find every new post I make getting negative rep, as well as someone going throught the old Seraph threads for anything from me to give me neg rep, ...let's just say until a mod tells me otherwise or the rep system gets a way to tell people who gave rep, I don't trust you any farther than I can throw you.

Murphie

08-02-2006, 09:51 AM

Kailea can't rep you down, RD. He has negative Rep so it doesn't affect you. Just for future reference.

RunningDemon

08-02-2006, 09:56 AM

Oh well, someone's been stalking me anyway and just neg repping any new post in The List and month old Seraph threads they found me in. And I stand by Kailea just liking to argue with anything I say after the whole 'The List' incidents.

Anyway, back to mocking the loser selling character! Good luck to anyone buying it, lol. Not gonna get back into that Dynamis LS or any good HNMLS :P

Irisjir Callard

08-02-2006, 09:59 AM

...back on topic, I liked Murphie's solutions. Granted, they don't give real-dollar return, but how much can you do with $1000 these days anyway (that's ASSUMING the account got autobought). Where I live, that's one month's rent not including utilities, and a week's worth of gas for the car.

Also, for all the game 'took time from you', you took something from the game as well. And, more importantly, you took something from the other PLAYERS in the game.

Returning account/items to a HNMLS kind of sets that karmic balance straight.

Not to mention, keeping the account out of RMT hands. If the LS doesn't need the account, just delete it. It'd be easier for someone else to do that than the person who leveled it.

Don't flame me for this, but I DO agree with what Kailea said about not sharing account information mostly being a combating-hacking-scamming measure. I imagine it also helps keep tabs on the RMT population and a few other things as well, but when you've decided you don't want your account anymore, hacking-scamming isn't high on your list of concerns.

Kailea

08-02-2006, 10:03 AM

Pillowcase

08-02-2006, 10:05 AM

The only thing I see wrong with account selling is most of the time, the people buying and selling are people that are playing the game for reasons other than enjoying the game and it's community. Not all the time, but most of the time.

I don't think it's bad to give your account info to your friend so he/she can play the game. They're just another player who wants to play the game. Selling your account on e-bay will get people in the game that are playing for a shitty reason.

Quit making money off of my hobby and get a job like the rest of us.

Kailea

08-02-2006, 10:08 AM

well I dont know about others, but I have a job, a nice one at that, but seeing as how so far, I have spent close to $800 bucks on FFXI (thats if you cout all the Game boxes for PC and PS2 with all expansiobs and the whole time I have been playing) if I am quiting for good, I would want some of my money back -.- now selling on Ebay or to IGE I dont find atracting, I would check with my firends and see if anyoen wanyed it, (CDs account and all) for a small price like... 100-200 or somethign like that. There is nothing wrong with doing it that way.

Skoal

08-02-2006, 10:11 AM

Selling SE's property for money no matter who it is to is against the TOS.

Macht

08-02-2006, 10:23 AM

4.2 Restrictions.
To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not:
(a) Modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Software;
(b) rent, lease, loan, sell, sublicense, distribute, transmit or otherwise transfer the Software, your User or other account-related information (including, but not limited to, your User ID or password information) to any third party;
(c) make any copy of or otherwise reproduce the Software; or,
(d) use the Software or your PlayOnline user account to provide service bureau or time-sharing services, or for any other commercial purpose. The PlayOnline Service and the ability to access PlayOnline are for the personal use of Users only and may not be copied, resold, leased, transferred, exchanged or bartered.

It is against the TOS that is for sure. As far as on E-Bay's end that sale is riddled with problems. Just to start he did false advertise the HNMLS, as stated here he's going to be dropped from that LS instant that new player joins.

Just the existance of that page can be sent to SE directly, through email or other methods marking that account to be removed. Doesn't even need a player to buy it, just the act of selling it and having physical evidence is hard enough proof to get that account terminated.

No making money back for your time in the game is not right, not only are you introducing someone who doesn't know the game. You are introducing them at a position with accomplishments, good or bad this will have players looking to them for advice as well can you imagine what horrible and illegal advise they could be giving.

The new player does have a chance of not realizing how severe a consequence it is to participate in RMT on FFXI. So of course them being secret about it is less likely and just increases the chances of that account being caught.

There is just so much wrong with this on a multitude of levels, players selling it will make money but they do it at the expense of someone else. Last time I checked this type of behavior is considered conning, not really a legal practice of making money.

RunningDemon

08-02-2006, 10:28 AM

And to whoever wants the name of the HNMLS he was in, PM me, I'll give it to you and the addy of their board too, where they are bashing him pretty hardcore in the public area.

Squint

08-02-2006, 10:29 AM

What?! No Ridill & O-Hat! That's gimp

Hecatomb Harness +1 & THF AF2 Hands are the only things I find valuable there.

Macht

08-02-2006, 10:37 AM

And to whoever wants the name of the HNMLS he was in, PM me, I'll give it to you and the addy of their board too, where they are bashing him pretty hardcore in the public area.

This even further places that account as conning a person, who ever buys that one if someone does is going to have a really bad view of the game. Not just by the players treatment of them participating in RMT but a good chance of it by the GMs.

Taskmage

08-02-2006, 10:45 AM

The $600 index card with the "free gift" of account information made me chuckle. I wonder though, from the most pessimistic viewpoint, if that means the account information might not work and he wouldn't be culpable, since the verbage of the auction clearly places all the value on the index card and the account is assumed to be of trivial value.

RunningDemon

08-02-2006, 10:52 AM

Funniest part is gonna be how he is A. Not in the HNMLS he says anymore, B. Not in the Dynamis LS he is in anymore, and C. Even when he was in the HNMLS, it was not the second best on the server, more like 5th or so.

Squint

08-02-2006, 04:42 PM

SOLD! for $1000.00

He will most likely get his character name change.

Mog

08-02-2006, 04:48 PM

GilStealingMule

08-02-2006, 05:15 PM

Hot damn, 1 thousand dollars. Man, I'm saving up for a downpayment on a car.

If only I could translate gil stolen on ffxionline.com to real money like that!

Tsingtao

08-03-2006, 07:48 AM

Well time to get ready to give the account buyer a warm wlecome to our server. As we know what we all need is a level 75 n00b or a new RMT account.

Let us go welcome him brethren, and if possible make a GM call and point out the sale on e-bay.

All I can say is Tsing will be there till the laast server is turned down attached to my credit card.

Ziero

08-03-2006, 08:09 AM

Nothing good comes of account buying and there is no reason to ever do it. You get back what you payed for by playing the game. No one is forcing you to play it so you can quit at any time to minimize your 'losses'. SE is even kind enough to give you a month to find out if you even want to pay for it.

Sadly however since teh auction already ended there is nothing they can do to the seller. He's done with FFXI so all of our frustration will not affect him. The buyer on the other hand will be out a thousand bucks the second he tries to log on.

So did anyone report this to SE's officials yet?

Telera

08-03-2006, 08:42 AM

You would think square would have something setup to detect this easily.

1. When the Name, Address, credit card info changes.
2. When a person that has been using the same group of IP address thru his local ISP for years, suddenly changes to one coming from a different state or county. This should atleast raise a eyebrow.

If both of those things happen it just screams sold account.

Also, my brother when he starts will be giving me his monthly fee, and I will be paying from my card until such time as he obtains his own. When that happens, the name, credit card info, and likely soon the address would change when I finally find an apartment. So that's not really a very good system to use. People also move cross country with regularity, especially if still at home and a parent gets a very good job offer on the other side of the country. While of course it could be some indicator, that alone couldn't really red flag an account to SE.

Tsikuro

08-03-2006, 08:47 AM

Ok, sure. It's against the ToS. What difference does it makes to him? He's not going to be playing this game anyways, so really, unless SE files a lawsuit against the seller, he's only going to gain from selling his character on e-bay.
word.
No one cares about SE or TOS.
I'll probly sell my account for personal gain when I'm done, too.
I'd rather have $1000 in my pocket than have the knowledge that I played by the rules in some MMO I quit.

Jath

08-03-2006, 11:24 AM

Why is it that whenever a thread is made on "Seraph Forums", people from other servers instantly post replies trying to insult the thread creator? Seriously if you guys dont like it, ask a MOD to Ban your "Seraph Forums" access and do us all a favor >_>

Back on topic:
Anyone else find it kinda odd that he didnt mention in the Ebay lot, why he quit?

Lasswyn

08-04-2006, 11:33 AM

:huh:

Can someone explain to me this whole mentality of "After all the time and money I've invested in this activity, I should be able to recoup some of my money when I'm done with it"? Skates, you can sell if you quit hockey, because the makers of the skates don't hold legal title to them. A quilt you spent $30 making you can sell for $50, because the makers of the fabric, thread, needles and sewing machine have already got their cut. But I can't resell my gym membership partway through the year because I got bored with working out. It's a service. My membership fees pay for the overhead costs that enable me to use the facility when I choose, if I choose, pursuant to the facility's rules and regs.

I don't know, feels like I'm just rambling out of sheer disbelief, maybe I'm not making that much sense....but if you paid for a service, whether you used it to its full extent or not, that money is gone, and you got whatever entertainment value you chose to get out of it already. That's just life.

Hearshot

08-04-2006, 11:36 AM

while the money is gone, there is also a clear cashout to be made, and i would have no problems selling my acct and 60M worth of gear for cash if i chose to never play this game ever again. But i still hate those gilsellers... hypocritical i know.

Lasswyn

08-04-2006, 11:42 AM

while the money is gone, there is also a clear cashout to be made

Then the seller, in the eBay case this thread began with, sold their integrity for a thousand dollars, because they clicked a button promising to obey the rules, and then they turned around and broke that promise. Sorry, but that's one messed up set of values.

Nothing more to say, I'm out. :lipseal:

Aeolus

08-04-2006, 12:04 PM

C'mon guys, can you just get off the seraph forums please. Aw please. Go on, scoot.

Its ok, I have a mule I created on seraph so I can post here.

He said the accounts a gift so that doesnt breach the ToS does it?

framerate

08-04-2006, 12:15 PM

interesting that I did the math and the 56m gil that came with that account would cost 1400 dollars to buy from IGE. So perhaps the guy just bought the account to get a good deal on his silly RMT schemes? He's stupid if he starts logging in and using such an obviously well known account...

Ziero

08-04-2006, 12:36 PM

You pay to play FFXI because you are buying a service. Just like you pay a cab driver or a buy a gym membership, you pay FFXI for the experiance they allow you to have. If you see it as 'work' then stop playing now, you don't need to play and no one is forcing you to log on. People willing pay for things they enjoy and get their money's worth by enjoying what they pay for. If you want to get something back for all your 'hard work' then sell the CDs. SE never said anything about the redistribution of the discs, and doing that won't allow someone to become a high lvl noob as they can't play without their own code.

Any transference of accounts in FFXI is against the rules, so no even as a 'gift' it's against the ToS. But sadly, as said before, there's nothing that can be done against the seller now. The deal is closed and he has his buyer and probably his cash as well. I'm assuming no one reported it on ebay because it IS against their tos to post sales like that and they would close them down if they saw it.

And how can one prove to GMs/SE that the account was the result of a RMT? If they can't punish the seller at least they can teach the buyer a lesson, a one thousand dollar lesson.

And to the those complaining about people not from seraph coming here to post, all new posts appear in that lil box at the top of the page when you log in. Thus anyone who sees it and is interested in the topic can come here and post. Open forums are like that.

Inferknite

08-04-2006, 12:50 PM

The absence of evidnce is not the evidence of absence!

Eohmer

08-04-2006, 02:05 PM

*sigh* really, RunningDemon can you just stop -.-

if he is selling it because he is quiting, then this is the only form of selling I agree with. When you quit, it is always good to try and get back atleast some of the money you lost, playing this game over the years ;p

Just because he's quitting doesn't mean he should try and sell it. What's there to agree with?

He CHOSE to play and give money to SE for the service. No once forced him to pay the fees. I've been playing for 3 yrs... if I quit, I have NO intention on "getting back the money I lost."

Icemage

08-04-2006, 02:15 PM

I've been a player since beginning of NA beta, but I would never call my monthly fees nor my time in game "wasted".

Even if I quit tomorrow, I'd take away some great memories. Memories of defeating incredible challenges. Memories of learning many interesting things while in the game.

Most importantly, I'd take away memories of friends who have come and gone over the years.

I'm sure others may feel differently, but those memories, and the opportunity to share them with others, are what make my fees worth paying.

Icemage

Eohmer

08-04-2006, 02:17 PM

Murphie

08-04-2006, 02:27 PM

Seriously. If you're only playing with the idea that you're going to get something back by way of cash in the end, you're playing for the wrong reasons. This is just a game folks. Play it, enjoy it, and when you stop enjoying it, stop playing, for god's sake.

Eohmer

08-04-2006, 02:47 PM

Ok, ok... so I was curious and decided to check out the link. Someone "bought it now" for $1,000.

This buyer also bought atleast 2 Gil making guides, and another account on Seraph. The only cool thing was Tron 20th Anniversary DVD. :-P

Hearshot

08-04-2006, 02:51 PM

hey hey, when some of us are in a financial bind in our lives, selling a virtual property like a video game character would be the least thing i would be ashamed of doing.

Murphie

08-04-2006, 02:53 PM

Well, you should be. Since you don't own it. I know that poverty makes us do things that we're not necessarily proud of, but the other option is to, you know, sell things you actually do own. Like your PC, or your TV, or something.

Kailea

08-04-2006, 03:00 PM

Then the seller, in the eBay case this thread began with, sold their integrity for a thousand dollars, because they clicked a button promising to obey the rules, and then they turned around and broke that promise. Sorry, but that's one messed up set of values.

Nothing more to say, I'm out. :lipseal:

Selling this kind of stuff is not breaking any rules as Ebay is conserned, you are breaking an agreement, not a real law, so Ebay could care less. If you are refreing to the TOS, then I agree with anyone that would sell there account, only if they dont plan on coming back. Just because some one sells their account, against the ToS, does not mean that they have lost their integrity nor do they have "messed up" values, because other then doing this one thing, they might be feeding the homeless the next day.

I agree Iwth Icemage, I would take all the great times I had while palying, but still in the end, when I am all done, and I leave, if I can get alittle cash, I am going to, hello $$ makes the world go round.

Eohmer

08-04-2006, 03:04 PM

Selling this kind of stuff is not breaking any rules as Ebay is conserned, you are breaking an agreement, not a real law, so Ebay could care less. and I agree Iwth Icemage, I would take all the great times I had while palying, but still in the end, when I am all done, and I leave, if I can get alittle cash, I am going to, hello $$ makes the world go round.

Then you obviously do NOT agree with Icemage. I don't think he has any intentions of selling his account if he quits. You still would. I fail to see the common ground here.

Mhurron

08-04-2006, 03:09 PM

Selling this kind of stuff is not breaking any rules as Ebay is conserned, you are breaking an agreement, not a real lawYes it is breaking the law and EBay does have a problem with it. If SE caught the transaction before it solde, EBay would have removed the auction and the buyer would not have had to complete the transaction.

You do not own your character, the items or gil it holds. You pay for access to the servers not ownership of that data. Therefore you have as much right to sell and profit by the sale of that data as you would selling your neighbours car.

Icemage

08-04-2006, 03:15 PM

Then you obviously do NOT agree with Icemage. I don't think he has any intentions of selling his account if he quits. You still would. I fail to see the common ground here.

That's correct. I'd let my character be deleted, but I wouldn't sell my account, because I feel no need to "make up for" the money I've spent on the game.

At most, I might give my account to someone I really trust, but even that is extremely unlikely; most of my friends are already high level players and thus have no need of an additional account, and the ones that aren't are not the type to want that sort of thing handed to them.

Icemage

Hamlet

08-04-2006, 03:23 PM

Disclaimer: my apostrophe button is broken lol.

Well, 1k is strictly profit, unless you ve been playing for over 6 years. So its about more than "making up your losses". And I dont think anyone gets 75 or amasses gil in the hopes of making up their losses, but if they can, why not?

Although probably nobody will follow my logic on this one, people tend to base their importance and morality on the group they actively participate in. If you re no longer playing, you re unlikely to care that people that are still playing have to deal with an annoying lvl 75 noob running around pretending to be someone else.

If you really do think you would care, and you live in the U.S., I would ask you to consider how many other countries that have to suffer so we can live such posh lifestyles (someone mentioned being poor in this thread, and yet hes posting on a computer and plays a game he pays 13 dollars a month for- that is upper middle class at least for most of the rest of the world).

As far as you not owning your own character, I suppose a strict reading of law might agree with that, but you re the one that put 100 days of your life or whatever into it. And many laws can be pretty stupid when read strictly.

Mhurron

08-04-2006, 03:30 PM

As far as you not owning your own character, I suppose a strict reading of law might agree with that, but you re the one that put 100 days of your life or whatever into it. And many laws can be pretty stupid when read strictly.Awesome. I'm going to have to pay for a cab to the airport here soon. After I pay the cabbie for services rendered I'm going to sell the cab too. Just trying to make up for my lost time. I mean, I paid the guy for the agreed service but I'm the one that had to sit and ride in the cab, not the cab company. And property ownership laws can be pretty stupid when read strictly.

Eohmer

08-04-2006, 03:33 PM

lol

Hamlet

08-04-2006, 03:34 PM

And property ownership laws can be pretty stupid when read strictly.

That would be stealing the cab from the cabbie. The cabbie needs his cab. What is SE going to do with your character after you log off for the last time. How are they losing? (btw, they actually get more money because the buyer will be paying the subscription fee which you would not have anymore)

Mhurron

08-04-2006, 03:41 PM

That would be stealing the cab from the cabbie. The cabbie needs his cab. What is SE going to do with your character after you log off and cancel your account. How are they losing? (btw, they actually get more money because the buyer will be paying the subscription fee which you would not have anymore)Who cares what they're going to do with it. There is no requirement in the law that states you have to find something usefull to claim ownership and the rights that go along with it.

YOU DO NOT OWN YOUR CHARACTER, therefore you can not legally sell it. Is it really so hard for you to understand?

Hamlet

08-04-2006, 03:42 PM

YOU DO NOT OWN YOUR CHARACTER, therefore you can not legally sell it. Is it really so hard for you to understand?

Well, if you want to be literal, the guy didn't sell his character. He sold an index card.

edit: also, why is it horribly immoral to sell a character, but people seem to think it's ok to give it to someone else, when they clearly DO NOT OWN THEIR OWN CHARACTER (your emphasis, not mine)

Amovorite

08-04-2006, 03:42 PM

I dunno.... I have this thing of really hating it when people play off of my hard work in a game. Although I'd give up my gear to my good friends in game if I quit... I'd make sure my character would fall into nothingness upon my departure. Hell... back in the days when Blockbuster rented out cartridges (non DS), I usually deleted my save files before returning the games I rented.... especially on RPGs. Kinda sucks when I got to the world of ruin in FF6 (still titled FF3 at the time), and then begrudgingly deleted the save file before returning it, and THEN my mom told me I could rerent the game. >_<

But yah... depending on the seller's financial situation, I could probably understand why he sold his account, but I still don't agree with it.

Mhurron

08-04-2006, 04:00 PM

Well, if you want to be literal, the guy didn't sell his character. He sold an index card.

edit: also, why is it horribly immoral to sell a character, but people seem to think it's ok to give it to someone else, when they clearly DO NOT OWN THEIR OWN CHARACTER (your emphasis, not mine)He sold his character. The auction was not for an index card alone, but a card with FFXI account information. I just sold a credit card number not access to the guys credit holds as much water.

I never would give anyone my character, the items or the gil I have. It all goes to oblivion when I quit.

Murphie

08-04-2006, 04:11 PM

You're going to be playing Oblivion when you quit FFXI? I'm sorry. :(

Mhurron

08-04-2006, 04:27 PM

You're going to be playing Oblivion when you quit FFXI? I'm sorry. :(I knew someone was going to say that.

Murphie

08-04-2006, 04:28 PM

I can always be counted on to misread a post. Whether it's on purpose or by mistake.

Squint

08-04-2006, 04:29 PM

did a /sea on him last night, not online yet...

will try again tonight...

Mog

08-04-2006, 04:31 PM

Oh, I definately saw him 2 nights ago. I don't know whether he managed to sell it by then....

Tirrock

08-04-2006, 04:40 PM

Is there some sort of unwritten rule that says that any of RunningDemon's topics have to hit 5+ pages? He's like a troll magnet.

Anyway. Player selling...I don't agree with. Doesn't feel right to me and is definitely against the ToS. One person other than myself has access to my account, and I've known him for most of my life...and he doesn't even play any more. If I quit, account is his. It looks like the account will just sit there until they close the servers down if I quit though.

Kailea

08-04-2006, 04:54 PM

Then you obviously do NOT agree with Icemage. I don't think he has any intentions of selling his account if he quits. You still would. I fail to see the common ground here.

I never said that Icemage would sell his account, I was refering to the fact that I agree with him about the memmories and the fun I had playing, but unlike him I would sell when I quit

RunningDemon

08-04-2006, 07:27 PM

Is there some sort of unwritten rule that says that any of RunningDemon's topics have to hit 5+ pages? He's like a troll magnet.

I blame the tarus....little plotting midgets.....

Hamlet

08-04-2006, 07:38 PM

I never would give anyone my character, the items or the gil I have. It all goes to oblivion when I quit.

That's fine, but why didn't you give a caps locked superior-sounding reply to the multiple people that said they would give an account to a long time friend? I can guess the answer: the guy that sells the account is less honorable in your eyes than the guy that gives it away to a friend. But really, that has nothing to do with ownership rights, now does it?

To use your analogy, it's like riding in a cab, taking the cab without the cabbie's permission, and giving it to a friend.

Murphie

08-04-2006, 09:01 PM

Or more like paying for a cab and letting your friend ride in it.

Hamlet

08-04-2006, 09:04 PM

Or more like paying for a cab and letting your friend ride in it.

No, that's not true. You can't buy the cab. It was very clearly spelled out to me in caps lock form.

Murphie

08-04-2006, 09:07 PM

No, I mean paying for a cab ride.

On the other hand, why must we be so strict with an analogy?

Hamlet

08-04-2006, 09:11 PM

No, I mean paying for a cab ride.

I'm assume you're referring to the cost of the game itself. If that's how the analogy works, then this doesn't work:

Awesome. I'm going to have to pay for a cab to the airport here soon. After I pay the cabbie for services rendered I'm going to sell the cab too. Just trying to make up for my lost time. I mean, I paid the guy for the agreed service but I'm the one that had to sit and ride in the cab, not the cab company. And property ownership laws can be pretty stupid when read strictly.

In you're reading, selling an account would be the same as selling your spot in a cab.

On the other hand, why must we be so strict with an analogy?

Well, Mhurron is being strict with the TOS by saying you don't own your character and how simple that should be to understand, but is being hypocritical by not applying the same disdain for people that give accounts away to friends rather than selling them.

I'm mearly pointing out the inconsitancy, and in a most impressive fashion, I must say. :P

Murphie

08-04-2006, 09:16 PM

Well, actually I see his point. With the first (selling it for real life money) you are profiting from something you don't own. But with the second (giving it to a friend) you aren't.

DakAttack

08-04-2006, 09:25 PM

I would give my stuff away, but it doesn't feel right. I have a lot to give away, and it'd make certain people happy, but it would feel more like a loss to me and just a pay off for my friends.

Hamlet

08-04-2006, 09:27 PM

Well, actually I see his point. With the first (selling it for real life money) you are profiting from something you don't own. But with the second (giving it to a friend) you aren't.

The only difference is that there's money exchanged in one scenario and not in the other.

If you can't sell something you don't own, then you can't give it away either.

edit: Here's a better analogy than the cab one:

Let's say you have a neighbor that lets you use rent their bicycle. The arrangement is that you depost an envelope with about 13 dollars every month in their PO Box, and you can ride the bike whenever you want.

You know for a fact that if you didn't ride the bike, NOBODY would. It would get absolutely no use. It would just sit against their house not doing anything until the house eventually gets torn down, at which time it will be destroyed.

Also know that the bicycle owner has stated implicately that they don't want anyone but you riding the bike under any circumstances. But the neighbor is NEVER home, so if someone else was riding it, they would never know.

After a couple years, you don't like riding it anymore. You are faced with two options:

option 1: Someone has seen you riding the bike and wants to ride it too. He offers you one thousand dollars for the location of the PO Box so they can make payments in your place.

option 2: Your friend also wants to ride the bike. You are considering giving them the location of the PO Box for free.

____________

There isn't much difference between option 1 and option 2 as far as what's fair for the bicycle owner. In both cases, however, the bicycle owner does not actually lose anything.

Although this analogy is alot longer, it is alot more accurate (although the first one was pretty much just to try to make me look dumb)

Caspian

08-04-2006, 09:52 PM

The only difference is that there's money exchanged in one scenario and not in the other.

If you can't sell something you don't own, then you can't give it away either.

So you can't give gil to a friend either?

Taskmage

08-04-2006, 10:00 PM

You can have whatever ethics you want and I don't care, but:3.1 Prohibited Activities.

(a) Any activities consisting of selling, purchasing or exchanging “gil” or any other currency that may be used in the Game from time to time, characters, and/or Game items for value (including, but not limited to, any payment in kind and any payment in any currency recognized as legal tender in any country, state, territory or other jurisdiction anywhere in the world) through any means or venue, including, without limitation, Internet auctions or other online exchanges;2.1 License Grant.
(a) SEI hereby grants you the limited, personal, nonexclusive, non-transferable, revocable license during the term of this Agreement to install and use the Licensed Software only on and in connection with a single Hardware and to use a single copy of the Documentation solely in connection with your use of the Licensed Software.

...

2.4 Restrictions.
To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not:
(a) modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;
(b) rent, lease, sublicense, distribute, or transmit the Licensed Software to any third party;
(c) rent, lease, sell, distribute, transmit or otherwise transfer your User or other account-related information (including, but not limited to, your User ID or password information) to any third party;It's against the license agreement to so much as tell someone else your login information.

Hamlet

08-04-2006, 10:02 PM

Taskmage

08-04-2006, 10:06 PM

I forget what sequence of links I followed, but here's the page that links all the legal information for Playonline: https://secure.playonline.com/supportus/index03.html

Hamlet

08-04-2006, 10:07 PM

I forget what sequence of links I followed, but here's the page that links all the legal information for Playonline: https://secure.playonline.com/supportus/index03.html

Awesome. That is incredibly handy for message board debating.

Caspian

08-04-2006, 10:08 PM

As far as I know, the TOS doesn't differentiate giving away an account and selling an account. Both are forbidden.

It does differentiate between giving gil and selling it, however.

Yeah, but I think someone else mentioned it, and I tend to agree, not giving away your account could be just SE's way of trying to prevent people from screwing with someone else's account. Then if you do come to a GM saying "so and so has my account info and emptied my char of all my money etc." the GM can just tell you tough luck, and to not give anyone your information.
The selling thing I get, same as selling gil. You don't own the char, you shouldn't profit from its sell. Just giving the account to a friend though, SE still gets their money and an account is saved from deletion. I actually have my old roomate's account still....I think. Never logged on though since I can't remember the login and am too lazy to look for it.

I don't know for sure that that is why SE has that in the ToS, but it seems like a reasonable explanation. (Going around the rules b/c the meaning behind them doesn't apply to you doesn't make it right yada yada yada,...cya)

Thrasher

08-04-2006, 10:12 PM

This is the way I see it.
Both selling and Trading characters is against the ToS but one is Direct participation in RMT, the other is a forum of cheating.

Unfortunately the OP of this thread may have inadvertently helped sell that character. (There is not way to prove this one way or the other, this is more a point against direct linking to auctions of FFxi in game items regardless of the intent of the OP)

Taskmage

08-04-2006, 10:22 PM

Putting the ToS aside, I have a hard time arguing morally against selling your account, but it's easy to object to buying an account because as Thrasher said it's cheating. It'd be like buying the World Cup or an Olympic medal or something. Sure you can argue on an intellectual level that you "earned" the prize buy working for the money, but you're screwing all the people who worked hard to earn it in the context that makes the achievement meaningful. So even if you can justify selling your account, that act begets the reprehensible act of someone buying an account, which makes the selling wrong.

Myself, I will never sell my account, but not for any of the reasons above. I identify personally with my character. Giving it to someone when I'm done with it would be like turning my body over to some wandering spirit when I die. :wasted:

Murphie

08-04-2006, 10:43 PM

I'm not trying to dispute that giving away and selling an account are equally against the rules. However, one is clearly more wrong morally, at least in my opinion.

For instance. My father bought a copy of the game back at ToAU launch. He played for his 30 day trial, and decided that the game was not for him. Rather than just put the game on a shelf for all time, he gave it to me, along with all of the account information. Now, I haven't had any reason to use the account yet, but if I did, I don't really see that I would be in the wrong (heck, I'd probably delete his character anyway and make my own, but even if I didn't, I don't really see the problem). Yes, it's technically against the rules according to the TOS, but as no one is attempting to profit here, I don't think it's anything to get too worked up about.

Taskmage

08-04-2006, 10:50 PM

No, I don't see anything wrong with that example, but in legalese it's hard to distinguish between a father giving his barely-used account to his son and someone giving their heavily-used account to a generous benefactor as a thank you for paying $999.90 too much for an index card. So from a standpoint of covering one's rear, the line has to be drawn around giving away accounts. Besides, I'm sure SE would've rather you went out and spend your own fifty dollars or whatever on your own copy of the game rather than getting your dad's. If there's any clear wrongdoing in your story it would be in that tiny amount of lost revenue.

Murphie

08-04-2006, 10:53 PM

Oh, absolutely. Again, I'm not disputing the legalality of the action. But as no one is attempting to profit off of something that isn't theirs, morally, it's on a slightly different level.

And yes, I totally get the idea of selling something else and just including the character as a "bonus". That's where the whole index card thing comes in. But I'm not talking about using my situation for legal interpretation, just as an example of a situation that I feel is ok, compared to a transaction involving cash.

Thrasher

08-04-2006, 10:56 PM

Yes on some levels I can understand selling your old account ,the game is already screwed up and since your leaving you could careless about screwing the game up slightly more. But you should consider both the example you are setting and the overall effects that greed and the real money trade has had on the game.

Trading accounts is hard is hard to prove one way or the other how bad it is. For every person who needs more moghouse space or power leveling there could be someone boting or worse with there second account.

In short this is a video game but it is also a community of people so its is in all our best interests to avoid screwing the game up anymore then it already is.
(Im thinking this Firefox button was a bad idea.)

Hamlet

08-05-2006, 12:17 PM

But as no one is attempting to profit off of something that isn't theirs, morally, it's on a slightly different level.

I'm sorry, but I don't attach any moral value to simply making a profit, and I don't see a moral difference between selling something that isn't yours and giving away something that isn't yours.

It's a strange situation because it's a non-tangible item. Even though you do not own your character, if you sell it or give it away, the owner (SE) doesn't lose anything. In fact, they gain more than they would have if you had just let it rot away in the form of continued monthly payments.

Yeah, but I think someone else mentioned it, and I tend to agree, not giving away your account could be just SE's way of trying to prevent people from screwing with someone else's account.

I guarantee if you called up SE and said you were giving away your account to your lonely sick grandmother who had nothing left in her life but to play ffxi and you can guarantee she would never use it for nafarious purposes, they would be as unhappy about it as if you called and said you were selling it.

So, since both giving an account away and selling an account are both equally wrong (to SE at least), that leaves in-game morals. Yes, it sucks that people playing the game will now have to deal with a lvl 75 noob (although they would have to if you gave it to a friend without experience as well), but most people won't care because they will never play this game again for the rest of their life which is why I brought up the point about how people tend to attach their moral values to the group they are actively participating in.

Alot of people buy stuff made from sweatshops in 3rd world countries, or don't notice that the United States prevents these countries from developing by forcing them to pay back loans they can never pay back, but we aren't living in those countries, so most of us are able to shrug it off (assuming we can even get ourselves to the point of considering the welfare of other people in other countries).

btw, just fyi, I'm not going to sell my account. I'll be playing it until they release ffxi-2, at which point I couldn't sell it even if I wanted to.

Anaki

08-05-2006, 12:25 PM

question if he has been kicked outta his HNM ls and most likely his dyna ls :P isn't his advertisement fraud? and waht he is selling is a lie. doesn't e-bay have rules about that o.O gotta wonder what kinda backlash that can do to the seller

Mhurron

08-05-2006, 12:57 PM

Well, Mhurron is being strict with the TOS by saying you don't own your character and how simple that should be to understand, but is being hypocritical by not applying the same disdain for people that give accounts away to friends rather than selling them.

I'm mearly pointing out the inconsitancy, and in a most impressive fashion, I must say.There is no inconsitency or hypocrisy. Not mentioning one facet of a discussion while agruing another is not tacit approval of the former.

in legalese it's hard to distinguish between a father giving his barely-used account to his son and someone giving their heavily-used account to a generous benefactor as a thank you for paying $999.90 too much for an index card.First, he didn't sell just an index card with a little extra gift on the side. He sold a card with FFXI account information on it, there was no separation, that is what he sold.

The reason you can not distinguish giving or selling character data from the legal document is because there is no difference to distinguish. You do not have ownership of it therefore can not pass that ownership to someone else. You have access to it under a set of restictions that you agreed to, one of those being that you may not pass that use to someone else.

Hamlet

08-05-2006, 01:13 PM

There is no inconsitency or hypocrisy. Not mentioning one facet of a discussion while agruing another is not tacit approval of the former.

I suppose your bases are covered, but your preference seemed quite obvious.

Kailea

08-05-2006, 01:14 PM

I am just going to say it... I dont care what the TOS says, I have been paying for and playing my account since this game was released in US...... it is MINE, and can do what I friken please with it.

Taskmage

08-05-2006, 01:20 PM

That seems hugely hypocritical considering the way you've been attacking certain anti-RMT posters on the basis that they're violating the ToS. They're paying for their accounts, so they should be able to do what they friken please with it even if it violates the ToS, right? :P

Kailea

08-05-2006, 01:44 PM

no becouse me selling my charater, and vigalantie (sp?) acts of a few people here are not teh same, they are hurting and harassing people people, I am not.

and yeah I know the next thing to be said is, "you can pick and choose what part of the ToS to follow or break" well you know what I do, I use Windower, and I will sell my account when I am done playing

I am in the part of the croud that belives, breaking rules to hurt people is bad, breaking rules for small things like windower and selling our account, in witch you decide to never return, are fine.

Taskmage

08-05-2006, 01:50 PM

As already mentioned, selling a high level account introduces a complete newbie that looks like a veteran player into the game. If you were to sell your account, every time your buyer logged on some party of whatever level your paladin is would find themselves with a tank that doesn't even know what provoke is, much less how to use it or make a macro for it. Being responsible for that, ruining the people's party experiences, that isn't hurting people?

Linra

08-05-2006, 04:37 PM

And what about the sadness your friends will feel everytime they see the fake? Think about your friends! And the children!

Kailea

08-05-2006, 05:19 PM

I would clear my friends listand break all my pearls, then send a mass message to everyone on that list before I quit that the account would be tradeing hands. (ok well not in that order -.-)

Icemage

08-05-2006, 09:45 PM

I would clear my friends listand break all my pearls, then send a mass message to everyone on that list before I quit that the account would be tradeing hands. (ok well not in that order -.-)

So if a RMT levels a character to 75, breaks all their linkpearls, clears their friends list, and sells their character (that they obviously don't intend to play any longer) this is OK, too?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Icemage

Kailea

08-06-2006, 05:28 AM

So if a RMT levels a character to 75, breaks all their linkpearls, clears their friends list, and sells their character (that they obviously don't intend to play any longer) this is OK, too?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Icemage

Yeha it would, if he did not intend on playing... eerrrr working anymore then yeah its fine, besides that would be one less seller :p

Icemage

08-06-2006, 10:02 AM

Yeha it would, if he did not intend on playing... eerrrr working anymore then yeah its fine, besides that would be one less seller :p

...

That's not "one less seller" - it's one less seller account, but the "worker" is still there.

I hate to belabor the obvious but what if he starts a new account and does it again? Is that still OK with you? Do you really think all those mass-levelled BLM/nothings we're seeing on every server won't eventually get sold if S-E manages to nerf BLMs enough to hurt them when used en masse?

Your naivete is shocking.

Icemage

Tsingtao

08-06-2006, 10:10 AM

Kailea

08-06-2006, 06:50 PM

I wish it was shocking but it represents the level of intellect of many on the server. hought exists around what it means to me and not much else. i.e. its fine to sell my account when I'm done with it as I am no longer part of the community so what it is used for is no concern of mine.

I'm suprised some of the folks remember to dress before leaving the house but hey what can you do, scary thing is they'll give them the vote too ^^

one big insult, nice...... just becuase I choose to get money back on something and you dont, does not mean I am stupid/ingnorant/RMT/what ever you want to add

oh this note I can tell you now to kiss my ass, because I help out my church when they ask, I do things for friends if I can, and I loan out a 5er ever so often when needed..... you are not going to sit there and tell me that I have screwed up ethics......

RunningDemon

08-06-2006, 07:05 PM

So if a RMT levels a character to 75, breaks all their linkpearls, clears their friends list, and sells their character (that they obviously don't intend to play any longer) this is OK, too?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Icemage

Just gotta say, PWNED! Harassment as defined by someone not involved in a situation is wrong, but they you admit that selling a character (against ToS) is completely fine. This is the same as saying that as long as it doesn't effect your gameplay, you don't care if they break ToS (which you have contradicted before).

Anyway, back on topic, the original seller is telling his old LS to not harass the new guy and they are tearing him a new one on their public board, lol.

Kailea

08-06-2006, 08:46 PM

Just gotta say, PWNED! Harassment as defined by someone not involved in a situation is wrong, but they you admit that selling a character (against ToS) is completely fine. This is the same as saying that as long as it doesn't effect your gameplay, you don't care if they break ToS (which you have contradicted before).

Anyway, back on topic, the original seller is telling his old LS to not harass the new guy and they are tearing him a new one on their public board, lol.

ooo "PWNED" I am hurt now..... I really dont plan on selling my charter, I put to much work into it to really want to let go. I have been saying I understand why others would sell, and that I MIGHT (if in other posts I said would, then I am sorry I should have typed might) sell when I quit, but I really dont think I will. Would give my stuff to my LS and keep all my DRG AF and a full set of gear to level with just in case.

Icemage

08-06-2006, 09:55 PM

just becuase I choose to get money back on something and you dont, does not mean I am stupid/ingnorant/RMT/what ever you want to add

You're selling a FFXI account for real world money. That's the definition of RMT. If you had a point here, you failed miserably to make it.

Icemage

Taskmage

08-06-2006, 10:35 PM

hahaha XD Umm, yeah ... trading real money for in-game objects kinda would mean you're RMT. Aaand, not making that connection kinda makes the other accusations harder to defend.

On another note, helping out the people you know while screwing over the people you don't is pretty screwed up ethics to me.

Moaku Hyena

08-06-2006, 10:38 PM

You're selling a FFXI account for real world money. That's the definition of RMT. If you had a point here, you failed miserably to make it.

Icemage

I'm going to have to agree with Icemage on this one. Selling your account is shooting yourself in the foot 75 times over. It's against the TOS, it's stupid, it brings a total n00b into the game, and it contributes to the worsening of the economy in FFXI---*skreeeeeeeech!!!*

Oh, you think it doesn't?
Sell a person a character that's loaded with money. He's going to use it. He's going to overspend 99 times out of 100.

Eohmer

08-06-2006, 11:28 PM

it brings a total n00b into the game

I remember when we had to train a lvl 34NIN how to use Utsusemi and about Provoking.

/sigh

Tsikuro

08-06-2006, 11:43 PM

I remember when we had to train a lvl 34NIN how to use Utsusemi and about Provoking.

/sigh

Yeah, that must've been really hard on you.
What terrible ordeals you've endured.

Spinnthrift

08-07-2006, 01:14 AM

Word on the street - has it that a certain poster on these forums who doesn't but does support RMT and who I sometimes openly make fun of...

Already did this... and the person playing that toon now isn't the original one who we all didn't much like in the first place.

All I can surmise - is that perhaps the number of people currently blacklisting them has gone down purely out of curiosity to see if the new owner is quite as n00b... ;)

Kailea

08-07-2006, 06:20 AM

I'm going to have to agree with Icemage on this one. Selling your account is shooting yourself in the foot 75 times over. It's against the TOS, it's stupid, it brings a total n00b into the game, and it contributes to the worsening of the economy in FFXI---*skreeeeeeeech!!!*

Oh, you think it doesn't?
Sell a person a character that's loaded with money. He's going to use it. He's going to overspend 99 times out of 100.

Thats why I finaly decided that when I quit I was going to give my LS my stuff and just leave the character there to age. I had only really thought about selling it for liek a week or so, but then after I got the opinions of my fellow LS mates I changed my mind. I dont suport RMT or hacking, but if I acualy needed the money then I am sorry I would have to sell. Family and work come before any game I play.

Vair

08-07-2006, 06:25 AM

I dont suport RMT or hacking, but if I acualy needed the money then I am sorry I would have to sell. Family and work come before any game I play.

Agreed. But still, I wouldn't ever think about selling my acocunt. I couldn't let anyone else play the Elvaan I've worked so hard on.

Murphie

08-07-2006, 06:25 AM

Thats why I finaly decided that when I quit I was going to give my LS my stuff and just leave the character there to age. I had only really thought about selling it for liek a week or so, but then after I got the opinions of my fellow LS mates I changed my mind. I dont suport RMT or hacking, but if I acualy needed the money then I am sorry I would have to sell. Family and work come before any game I play.Sell your computer then. You actually own that. :rolleyes:

Mhurron

08-07-2006, 08:41 AM

I dont suport RMT or hacking,So you say you don't support it but take part in it when you're on the receiving end of the benefits.

nazlfrag

08-07-2006, 09:07 AM

I dont suport RMT or hacking, but if I acualy needed the money then I am sorry I would have to sell. Sell.. Money.. RMT... Look, you are saying RMT is fine. Nobody but SE has the authority to sell your character, and anything else is a breach of contract that will make the sale null and void ie. you will be selling something of no worth due to the instant ban that could come into effect at any time.

I am suprised you needed your LS buddies to explain that it would be a terrible thing, and I'm sure they think less of you for merely suggesting it. The anonymity provided by the internet is no excuse to behave with total disregard to a community that has supported and helped you, asking nothing in return. You want to profit off the goodwill of everyone who took their time to help you out? When you sell your character, you are selling a part of your soul. It's not just you in that character, but everyone you partied with to get where you are, everyone you teamed up with to get your AF or genkai. What will you give them as compensation - a slap in the face as the person they helped turns traitor. Your friends are not a commodity you should readily trade for cash.

If you don't like the cost in the first place, don't play. Yes, the game costs money, as does running MMO internet servers. If a few dollars a week is putting you in financial jeapordy, I can't imagine how you justify your internet bill.

Ziero

08-07-2006, 09:44 AM

Now I've had my disagreements with the OP before, on topics that will remain unnamed, but when the guys right he's right. Both the seller and the buyer are screwing people over in this case. Account selling is never a good thing and is just another form of RMT. The buyer is going to get REEMED by the seller's old ls mates after logging in. All the effort that player's *friends* put into *him* getting where he is was just tossed aside like it meant nothing at all and now this unknowing noob can just come in and reap the rewards of other people's hard work.

Yes I am against account selling and trading, there's absolutely no reason for it. I know someone who did end up with desperate money problems. He was a good in game friend of mine who was forced to quit because the investments he was living on were ruined back after hurricane katrina. When that happened he *canceled* his account and sold his X-box and other things as such. He stil hasn't been able to return to FFXI yet, but he has been able to get his life somewhat stable enough to survive.

There is no reason to sell/give away your account as it will only hurt people you once called friends in the end.

Kailea

08-07-2006, 11:04 AM

Sell your computer then. You actually own that. :rolleyes:

I use my PC in my work, sorry cant do that, and I acualy though of giveing the account to a fellow LS friend to use in the LS, that way I would not be helping RMT or noob :p

Eohmer

08-07-2006, 01:43 PM

You know... ever since I posted in this thread, my rep became red. I wonder why. :-P

RunningDemon

08-07-2006, 01:46 PM

Cuase, can't agree with me without people neg repping you, it's a rule.

Eohmer

08-07-2006, 01:48 PM

Cuase, can't agree with me without people neg repping you, it's a rule.

Yeah...:rolleyes:

Murphie

08-07-2006, 01:50 PM

I use my PC in my work, sorry cant do that, and I acualy though of giveing the account to a fellow LS friend to use in the LS, that way I would not be helping RMT or noob :pThen sell your TV. I'm sure you don't need that with your work.

Or your couch. Or your microwave, or your bike. Whatever. The point is, if you have financial troubles, sell the things you own.

Eohmer

08-07-2006, 02:28 PM

Then sell your TV. I'm sure you don't need that with your work.

Or your couch. Or your microwave, or your bike. Whatever. The point is, if you have financial troubles, sell the things you own.

Don't you know, Murphie? That's all needed for "work" as well. :-P

By the way, a big THANK YOU for whoever hooked me up! :D

Renaissance 2K

08-16-2006, 07:22 AM

I'm kind of wrinkled by all the Rare/Ex items and Relic armor the guy "proudly" says he threw out.

If you didn't want it, why lot on it and screw other people out of it?

Ryddr

08-16-2006, 10:55 AM

You know... ever since I posted in this thread, my rep became red. I wonder why. :-P
Yeah...:rolleyes:
Someone hates us. I've actually been repped down for the same post twice..the only post I've got negative rep on. It's a post on "The List" thread. The first was back when the list was being debated and the second...just last week. Long after the discussion in the thread was finished. lol Someone's trolling around with hard feelings and I bet I know who.

M_X

08-16-2006, 09:56 PM

Yeah, I noticed my rep's gone down. -32....make that -41, just got another rate down on 8-16 for a post I made 3 months ago.

Honestly, I'd rather speak for my opinions and have a bad rep then be some punk who has nothing better to do then inflate their fragile little egos by playing rep police.

Ziero

08-16-2006, 10:30 PM

I have no idea, or care, how rep works. Ya say what ya gotta say and if people disagree with ya that's their problem. I know I never repped down someone as I see no point in it, a person will still post whatever they want and it's their right too as long as it don't break the ToS of the boards. Though I do report them RMT and personal ad bots that occasionally pop up.

Tirrock

08-16-2006, 11:48 PM

One person can't rate you down (or up) multiple times in a short time. I think you have to wait almost a month before you can rate somebody up or down again, and one person can never effect the rate on the same post twice.

Rate downs are generally a waste though. It's not like you get booted from the forum if you hit a certain amount of negative reputation.

I've actually never been rated down for my comments on topics like these. I think it's largely because I don't really care what RunningDemon does. It's his list. I'm sure I'd care a lot more if he was on my server (for good or bad, I honestly don't know), but he isn't.

Anyway...attempting to steer back on topic:

I'm kind of wrinkled by all the Rare/Ex items and Relic armor the guy "proudly" says he threw out.

If you didn't want it, why lot on it and screw other people out of it?
Yeah, that annoys me too. It annoys me only slightly less than somebody selling their character with all those items on them too. At least when I helped them get those items.

We had a guy in our LS sell his character with a ton of adaman/koeing/AF2 and some tradable items that he kept to get a higher price for his character. I didn't spend hours camping faf/nid/KB and doing dynamis/sky/sea just so you can ensure you get an extra $200 out of your character when you sell it.

I'd much rather have somebody leave an HNM linkshell with whatever items they got and compete against me on things. At least that character spent their own time getting the items. (I've had several friends leave the HNM LS I was in and join another one. Didn't really bother me, so long as it doesn't change how they talked to me.)

Cybilcora

10-01-2006, 09:33 PM

I was very temped to give negitive feed back on their ebay accounts, but then I'd expose myself to hate mail from them. Hard choice. But not a good idea. I'd really like to know what else this buyer has bought on ebay. More game accounts? Maybe he's a RMTer adding to his army?

I am rather surprised that this character sold for 1,000.00 dollars. Do they really go for that much? even more?

I don't think that "conehead" is really the character's name. BTW has any one ever seen "conehead"? I wonder if SE was made aware of the sale of the character and deleted it. Now that sucker is totally out of agood chunk of money.

Mog

10-01-2006, 11:28 PM

I don't think that "conehead" is really the character's name. BTW has any one ever seen "conehead"? I wonder if SE was made aware of the sale of the character and deleted it. Now that sucker is totally out of agood chunk of money.

I would lol if this were to happen. Anyone who buys accounts deserves to lose their money.

Jei

10-01-2006, 11:52 PM

I just love my character too much that I don't want anyone else touching him : /
even my very close friends... I never give my account info to him. (altho he gave his info to me...)

But about other people buying/selling accounts, I've seen it too often to feel bad about it : /

Mini Neruto

10-02-2006, 03:45 AM

I was very temped to give negitive feed back on their ebay accounts, but then I'd expose myself to hate mail from them. Hard choice. But not a good idea. I'd really like to know what else this buyer has bought on ebay. More game accounts? Maybe he's a RMTer adding to his army?
I am rather surprised that this character sold for 1,000.00 dollars. Do they really go for that much? even more?
I don't think that "conehead" is really the character's name. BTW has any one ever seen "conehead"? I wonder if SE was made aware of the sale of the character and deleted it. Now that sucker is totally out of agood chunk of money.

Doubt the names conehead. Hes reffering to tarus...having coneheads >.>

Grizzlebeard

10-02-2006, 07:24 AM

Doubt the names conehead. Hes reffering to tarus...having coneheads >.>
I always thought of them more as walking acorns. :P

Caspian

10-02-2006, 08:15 AM

Well, in most cases where the account is in an HNMls, they usually know who it is. In a case where the account isn't already in one, well, they're probably going to suck way too much to get into one.
Only other option would be if someone who already had a char bought it. Even then its usually noticable to their friends at the very least. Its just hard to completely impersonate someone else, even in a video game.