COR AF Discussion

[WishMaster3K]

Combine this with another thread if you see fit, but I just want to get a general concensus from the COR community on the AF.

Now- GRANTED, our AF is better than nothing. But compared to other pieces of gear, where does it stand? That stats:

Trump Gun:
lvl 40
D 28
Delay 480
AGI+2 Ranged Accuracy+2

Corsair's Tricorne (Head):
lvl 60
Def 22 　 　
HP+8 STR+2 Ranged Accuracy+8 Enhances "Quick Draw" effect

Corsair's Frac (Body)
lvl 58
Def 42 　 　
HP+15 DEX+2 AGI+2 Ranged Accuracy+8

Corsair's Gants (Hands)
lvl 54
Def 11
HP+10 DEX+2 MND+2 Parrying skill +5

Corsair's Culotte (Legs)
lvl 52
Def 28
HP+20 INT+3 Enmity-3

Corsair's Bottes (Feet)
lvl 56
Def 11 　 　
HP+10 STR+2 AGI+2 Ranged Accuracy+2



Ok, from initial view, I see myself using the Body and the Hat well into Endgame.

The Hat is almost equivalent to Optical, and the Body is almost equivalent to this piece from Ilrusi Atoll:

ln. Khazagand
lvl 72
def 42
MNK/THF/RDM/RNG/BST/NIN/DRG/COR/PUP
HP+20 Accuracy+10 Ranged Accuracy+10
Increases rate of critical hits
HP recovered while healing +2
Set: Enhances "Subtle Blow" effect

In other words, we'll only lose 4 Racc from other CORs who have those two pieces.

In exp, this won't make a difference at all (if we even have enough time to land Ranged Attacks once we get higher levels), and I suspect it won't matter in end-game activities due to our B skill.

I'm not very impressed by the Hands, Feet or Legs.

Hands are outclassed by Crimson Hands, Legs are outclassed by Noct +1 and for Feet, I'd just use Taru RSE....

So those are my thoughts. Any others?

[Spider-Dan]

I was expecting more job-specific bonuses; increased PR duration, reduced Bust penalty, etc.

The fact that the two good pieces of AF happen to be in the same slots where we have awesome, easy-to-acquire endgame gear already is a bit disappointing.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've read a lot of whining about this set on other forums and I don't really get it. Bonuses for job abilities like Phantom Roll are already in the job when you play PR with its corresponding job. Making PR last longer would be unbalanced, its already longer than a BRD buff

Random deal is... random. Wild Card is... random. Par for course in gambling job.

An endgame gear comparison is silly, AF is never intended to be comprable or better than endgame gear... if all of it was better, why would we even do endgame? We'd just quest AF and level up another job if that were the case.

As nice as O hat is, it still looks like someone crapped on your head and offers +2 R Acc over the AF hat.. that's not a large difference. I'd just leave the hat on for Quick Draw enhancment. The body and feet is the best thing going for COR til the 70s... that's a good amount of time.

Legs and hands can be replaced with Jaridah or Noct and better Assault and endgame pieces later, there's always some AF that goes unused.

Its a good set over all and I'm glad the AF1 is 40, that makes it a keep for 40 caps. I was worried we'd get a dagger or something crappy, this is the best AF weapon I've quested so far.

My gripe is SE putting the initial AF quests in a zone thats practically a deathtrap to level 40s and 50s and then making the remainder of the set an AH Gougefest. I'd take cofferhunting over getting my wallet crushed and an IS timesink.

[WishMaster3K]

As nice as O hat is, it still looks like someone crapped on your head and offers +2 R Acc over the AF hat.. that's not a large difference. I'd just leave the hat on for Quick Draw enhancment. The body and feet is the best thing going for COR til the 70s...

You speak Truthiness. Can I start the AF on COR (when I'm 40) but do it as another job?

I've only ever done RDM AFs (like 2 years ago >.>) so I'm a bit rusty.

I'll be damned if there is something in this game relating to AF that I can't solo as a RDM.

[Drive]

Yah you just need to start it as Cor.

thank you Omgwtfbbqkitten, that is what others need to see.

[Zamphire]

You can do your AF weapon at 40, the armor is done at 50. And yea, you can do almost all of this AF with another job, except the activation quests.

[PTT]

I see so many people bash this AF set over at Alla (but of course, it's Allakhazam..), and I don't know why.

It's a good set. It gives:

+63 HP - Everyone likes +HP

STR+4 - I've heard people argue that it affects RNG.ATK, and people argue that it doesn't, but all in all, a buff of it is nice nonetheless.

DEX+4 - Dex is good.

AGL+6 (Including the Trump Gun) - That's a nice overall bonus to the most important stat for a Ranged Attacker.

INT +3 - INT affects Quick Draw Damage (I believe, am I wrong?), so sure, this is great.

MND +2 - Why not?

Ranged Accuracy +20 (Including Trump Gun) - Is this not awesome? I'm under the assumption that +20 of ranged accuracy is really awesome.

Parrying Skill +5 - It's our greatest defense skill, so might as well. I know I know, we should never get hit... but ah well. We can't say we're not swashbucklers at least.

So really, I don't see what everyone's complaining about. Just because it's not "The Best" equipment you can ever equip for that character EVER doesn't automatically make it junk. Plus, inevitably there's going to be AF2 for the job, which might have bonuses more along the lines of what you're looking for. Or if you must, there's the equipment everyone is citing as 'better' than this.

Me, I'd wear it.

[WishMaster3K]

The best pieces are the Body and Head, which i'd wear. I'm not a fan of tights (I like Shorts on my characters >.>), and the boots are mehnism anyway.

BUT, I do see myself macroing them in.

[Silkiv]

This is good lvl 60 capped armor.

This armor represents the ties we have with the Seagull Phratrie crew and especially to Qultada.

The Tricorne is very Saavy. Got about 10 tells earlier today from people walking by saying how nice it looks. Wore it while working on dagger of trials latent instead of war beret since it just looks best.

[Grizzlebeard]

But it looks cool... :P

[framerate]

Keep in mind no class's artifact I've seen is "uber". As SMN I only wear my head and body pieces for show... and my gloves are macroed in just because I'm tired of only wearing Carbuncle Mitts...

Artifact isn't meant to be the end all be all of job armor... it's just supposed to "help out" and collectively average you out a bit and boost some JS stats as whole...

[Dayala]

The AF is ok considering, I'm not sure what INT and MND are for unless INT affects the elemental properties (time to research). BTW the bonuses Dan is looking for can be merrited so get to 75 already! AF1 is not meant to be that uber.

This quest costing me 2 million in gil though I could live without, "Free" gear my butt. I'd rather fight in BCNMs for it then get the gear crafted by some NPC. What a rip, I'm super mad that I have to fork out all this gil cause of some greedy jerks seeing an opportunity to screw some excited CORs. Luckily my LS pwns and I can go farm with them some of the needed items and get some ISP's for the coins >< SE's flaw in this is to make us BUY our AF. /angry

BTW at lvl 57, the reef sucks. I've lost 6K exp trying to do CSs. and once I get out of CS's I always get aggro without fail from the Lamia near the ??? on the boat ><

[WishMaster3K]

O_o why are you paying? You're RDM 75, solo everything.

[Spider-Dan]

The main complaint that people (such as myself) have with COR AF is that it is essentially useless at 75 (even for macros, unlike most other jobs' AF) and provides virtually no job-specific bonuses at all.

Maybe if you were expecting AF to be nice, temporary exping gear, then you're happy; it certainly fills that role. I was expecting AF to give unique, job-specific bonuses that I can't get from everyday AH gear. And it fails pretty horribly at that.

I would trade away every single bit of RACC, AGI, and STR on COR AF for one "Enhances Phantom Roll duration" piece, and I wouldn't even think twice about it.

[PTT]

I would trade away every single bit of RACC, AGI, and STR on COR AF for one "Enhances Phantom Roll duration" piece, and I wouldn't even think twice about it.

There's always the chance AF2 will swoop in with those kind of stats. Maybe. When they get around to adding it...

Anyway, it looks fine to me for what it's worth. It'll do until I can afford all the 'Leet' armor.

[Amovorite]

Personally I think the AF is just fine. I do not see why there are complaints about Phantom Roll duration. I mean damn.. you get FIVE whole minutes of a buff, and not just simple buffs, but buffs that make a party very friggin' good. I'm sure that the Mnd and Int bonuses are on Corsairs for a reason, and maybe the complaints about that will dwindle when someone finds out what. As for people wanting AF modifications of Random Deal, Wild Card, and Phantom Roll (roll ratio).... I don't agree. Those abilities are supposed to be random, and putting any modifiers into them takes away that uniqueness to the job.

As it has been stated before, one cannot expect AF1 to carry them to endgame just like that. It's just a good set of armor that's good for several occasions, and, like most other AF sets, one or two pieces are pretty good to keep to endgame. Don't see why this set should be the exception.

[Etra]

Me, I honestly don't care what people say about it. I'm going to wear this whole armor set well into end-game.

Why? Because it looks so damn awesome.

Edit: I'm extremely happy with the weapon they gave us. That gun is pretty nice, unlike a lot of AF weapons that can be replaced one level later.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I would trade away every single bit of RACC, AGI, and STR on COR AF for one "Enhances Phantom Roll duration" piece, and I wouldn't even think twice about it.

Well, the BRD class awaits you. they get that from merits now >.>

But COR already has the longest buff duration in game, I think it would kind of be excessive to stretch that duration further and worse to shorten it.

[Spider-Dan]

Well, the BRD class awaits you. they get that from merits now >.>

But COR already has the longest buff duration in game, I think it would kind of be excessive to stretch that duration further and worse to shorten it.
No, COR does not have the longest buff duration in game (hello, Protect/Shell?). But that's beside the point.

I find it somewhat puzzling that you think it would be wrong to either lengthen or shorten roll duration, as if there is some special value to a five-minute duration. 5:30 would in no way be broken.

In fact, the entire line of reasoning that increased buffs on COR AF could "overpower the job" is rather ridiculous. Under what possible scenario could COR be overpowered? Are we going to have 18 CORs doing Divine Might? Are we going to have COR COR COR COR BRD RDM parties? No, and no.

Phantom Roll duration could be 30min, and there still wouldn't be any point to having more than 2 CORs per party (if even that many). At the end of the day, COR is still a bottom-tier DD (on it's own merits) and any dedicated DD job would decisively blow us away in damage output, which necessarily limits how many CORs you're going to invite to a party. (And for the record, BRDx2 parties already happen now.)

Furthermore, since we can't sleep/bind and can't dispel, that automatically means that we'll never be able to truly replace BRD. Our buffs could be literally twice as strong as they are now, and BRD would still get parties (COR+BRD would be just that much better).

So when people talk about a lack of JA boosts on AF to "preserve balance," I have to wonder... what the hell are you talking about? What possible doomsday scenario are we avoiding? The worst case scenario I can imagine is that nobody will party without a COR... which is just like BRD has been for the last 2 years.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

No, COR does not have the longest buff duration in game (hello, Protect/Shell?). But that's beside the point.

Yes it is beside the point, I was talking COR and BRD buffs here. When WHM gets around to stat/job ability tweaking like those jobs do, get back to me.

Skipping the midding section I could have quoted, because it was largely bizarre ranting.

So when people talk about a lack of JA boosts on AF to "preserve balance," I have to wonder... what the hell are you talking about? What possible doomsday scenario are we avoiding? The worst case scenario I can imagine is that nobody will party without a COR... which is just like BRD has been for the last 2 years.

You're looking for improvements/enhancments from job that deals purely on the random. I have to ask this, have you played any other Final Fantasy games? Do you know what Corsair is based on?

Gamblers, we're based on gamblers.

Setzer. Cait Sith. Wakka. FFX-2's Lady Luck. This is where we come from. Be glad that when you Bust, you just get a bad status effect for yourself, because for three of those guys, when they got a Dud on Slots, the PT was wiped or close to it. Wakka just got a weaker attack.

Now, that said, I think we do lack some JAs (Gil Toss, where art thou? Bribe, hello? Eh, Bribe is wishful thinking) , but I don't know how well they would work in this game. What we have now I think is fine to leave as is, save for Quick Draw which already get gear to enhance it.

Anything that improves what a gambler already does, moves a gambler away from taking risks. We're not supposed to come with any garuntees of what BRD offers, hell, we offer something totally different.

When you think about it, BRD is essentially like giving your melee free gear. COR is more like giving your PT free, varied merits. We can give a PT great power, but its not a given and... why should it be?

[WishMaster3K]

How much stronger are our Buffs in say, the 60s? Spider-Dan, I know you're a COR Number cruncher, so can you give me some stats?

As it is, even with a DRK in the pt, the DRK Roll is pretty worthless at lvl 30....



Perhaps asking for gear with bonuses to Phantom Roll (as in making it easier to get lucky/eleven and making it harder to get a Bust, even if we roll on somethng like 8) wouldn't be overpowered, per se. It would take the essence of the game away, I suppose, but BRDs have been doing it (free uber buffs w/o penalties) for years. And as Dan pointed out, BRDs get way more than COR, so it's not like pts are in a rush to "replace" BRDs or RDMs with COR.

I'd have personally liked gear that gave you bonuses for rolling higher, so instead of sitting on that 7, you'd roll again because you know that there is a nifty treat.

I rarerly reroll 6, but that's because at my level, there isn't too much worthwhile to roll for. Sure, I may get an 11, but I'm just fine and dandy as it is....

[Spider-Dan]

You're looking for improvements/enhancments from job that deals purely on the random.
Really? Is V on Evoker's Roll "random"? Is Quick Draw's effect "random"? Do rolls last for random lengths of time?

Just because there is a random aspect to COR, that doesn't mean the job "deals purely on the random". If the job was truly random, then all CORs would be equally good at buffing; that's what randomness entails. However, I believe that an intelligent, informed COR will have better results than one that just rolls randomly. A COR that knows why you double-up a VII on Evoker's but not a VI on Wizard's is one that has a non-random advantage.

I have to ask this, have you played any other Final Fantasy games? Do you know what Corsair is based on?

Gamblers, we're based on gamblers.

Setzer. Cait Sith. Wakka. FFX-2's Lady Luck. This is where we come from.
Do you know what job THF is based on? Because wow, FFXI THF is just like Locke! What with all the hate management and extreme focus on positioning.

I don't care about what gamblers did in other games. It's irrelevant.

Anything that improves what a gambler already does, moves a gambler away from taking risks.
Then I guess it's a good thing that COR doesn't get consistent, quantitative bonuses from having a specific job in the party, because that would totally go against the entire concept of a random job. OH, WAIT...

How much stronger are our Buffs in say, the 60s? Spider-Dan, I know you're a COR Number cruncher, so can you give me some stats?
It appears that Chaos Roll is a straight % increase, with a level-penalty when the COR is lower:

http://ffxi.killvoid.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=2516611#2516611

Perhaps asking for gear with bonuses to Phantom Roll (as in making it easier to get lucky/eleven and making it harder to get a Bust, even if we roll on somethng like 8) wouldn't be overpowered, per se. It would take the essence of the game away, I suppose, but BRDs have been doing it (free uber buffs w/o penalties) for years.
That's not what I'm asking for. I would actually be very much against any change that affects the probabilities of Phantom Roll, as it could easily lead down a slippery slope of statistically unsound rerolling based on superstitious notions of "weighted" rolls. Right now, COR roll analysis is based on simple statistical math, and that's how I like it.

I'm talking about a bonus that would increase the return on each total, similar to what you get when you have that job in party.

So for example, an enhanced Chaos Roll might be close to what we get with DRK in party now, and an enhanced Chaos Roll with DRK in party would be even better than that.

[Amovorite]

So for example, an enhanced Chaos Roll might be close to what we get with DRK in party now, and an enhanced Chaos Roll with DRK in party would be even better than that.

Sounds like something SE might add as group 2 merits.

[Aeni]

I don't care about what gamblers did in other games. It's irrelevant.

You don't know SE then. SE's programmers maybe be the ones adding code to the game, but it is the long-time director and designers that have seen project after project in the long-running FF series that determines how things work. This is the point that Wtfbbqkitten was making. In a sense, I agree, that it is random, because as I've said before, this whole game is based on a giant random number generator from where it drives just about everything in this game, including mysterious 30 min long whiffing with enough acc that would allow a level 1 mandy to get one hit in on Kirin...

[Spider-Dan]

You don't know SE then. SE's programmers maybe be the ones adding code to the game, but it is the long-time director and designers that have seen project after project in the long-running FF series that determines how things work. This is the point that Wtfbbqkitten was making.
And my point is, besides the Steal command (which is a miniscule and unimportant part of this game) FFXI THF has almost nothing in common with thieves in every other FF. The overriding functions of this iteration of THF are positioning and hate management; two concepts that essentially don't even exist in previous FFs (in anything but the most rudimentary fashion).

So if this THF can be completely unlike previous thieves, why should it be any different for COR?

[Grand Lethal]

COR got decent AF... its got a couple functional pieces and some absolutely useless pieces (folling the trend of most AF). I think the bigger question is whether they will make AF+1 and AF2 for the nwe jobs and what will it bring to the table?

I know on BRD when I hit 72, AF went into storage (actaully at 70 or whatever errant is), same thing with THF, I stored everything when I had access to Dragon gear. Cor really shouldn't be any different. yes the AF looks cool and we want to keep wearing it, but at some point level 50-60 gear becomes obsolete.

On a side note, I think they did a good job on the AF weapon, its doing me proud right now at level 42, not sure when it'll be traded for something new.

[SonikU4ia]

Just because there is a random aspect to COR, that doesn't mean the job "deals purely on the random".
Actually, that's a rather odd statement. When you roll the dice for your buffs, you cannot pick which # the die will roll on. Its purely and simply random. Sure, you can use meta-game thinking and correlate a strategy to manipulate that random roll, but initially that die roll operates on a purely random fashion. Not sure what you were trying to accomplish there with your words. I think you misinterpreted the poster.
If the job was truly random, then all CORs would be equally good at buffing; that's what randomness entails.
Again, for the most part, not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. If by saying and meaning "truly random," the job cannot manipulate rolls past the initial die being cast (e.g. rerolling again to get a possibly better effect, while taking the risk of getting a worse or the worst), then what pray tell would be so equally setting of the playing field for all CORS, like you are suggesting?
However, I believe that an intelligent, informed COR will have better results than one that just rolls randomly. A COR that knows why you double-up a VII on Evoker's but not a VI on Wizard's is one that has a non-random advantage.
Granted, but, unless I missed the memo, wasn't it not really worth it in the long run to re-roll anything 6+? Of course, that's the safe way of playing, and I personally don't find it worth my time to Bust on an average basis. Sure, I can log out and what not, but I want the benefits of my rolls just as much as my party.
Do you know what job THF is based on? Because wow, FFXI THF is just like Locke! What with all the hate management and extreme focus on positioning.
Your attempt to discredit what the original poster implied failed. No previous battle engine in FF operated on the 3D/1st person perspective that FF11 does, granted. But the "concept" and "idea" of what the THF job portended cannot get argued or ignored. Modified by the developers, sure. Rehashing nostalgic gameplay to draw the intended cult following, absolutely, which was what the original poster intended, that I could see.
I don't care about what gamblers did in other games. It's irrelevant.
On the contrary, again, SE is notorious for rehashing their game engine/creativity, while bringing to the table some form of ingenuity. It only makes sense that SE continue such with FF11. So, the concept was quite relevant.
Then I guess it's a good thing that COR doesn't get consistent, quantitative bonuses from having a specific job in the party, because that would totally go against the entire concept of a random job. OH, WAIT...
Bless your heart. In an attempt to argue what was posted, you're actually back-firing on yourself. Again, not what the poster meant. The job clearly starts out and is based on complete acts of randomness. But, sure, you can manipulate the job in one form and fashion. But, initially, its purely luck.
That's not what I'm asking for. I would actually be very much against any change that affects the probabilities of Phantom Roll, as it could easily lead down a slippery slope of statistically unsound rerolling based on superstitious notions of "weighted" rolls. Right now, COR roll analysis is based on simple statistical math, and that's how I like it.
I'm talking about a bonus that would increase the return on each total, similar to what you get when you have that job in party.
So for example, an enhanced Chaos Roll might be close to what we get with DRK in party now, and an enhanced Chaos Roll with DRK in party would be even better than that.
Do you pay attention to the AF model? What you're seeking potentially will be available on Relic. Because, in my opinion, in the way it feels to me that SE adds bonuses, what you're asking is a little too strong pre-70. SE can be pretty conservative at times when it comes to making jobs strong. On a side note, they can also be quite savvy at dwarfing a jobs performance to miniscule at best. Of course, trying to design an MMORPG w/o any kinks and flaws is the same as asking for the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

I have no qualms with the AF myself. It feels and seems.... like AF lol. (Meaning, most of it can be pointless after a certain level. Certainly fits the model I'm use to seeing.)

[Spider-Dan]

Actually, that's a rather odd statement. When you roll the dice for your buffs, you cannot pick which # the die will roll on. Its purely and simply random. Sure, you can use meta-game thinking and correlate a strategy to manipulate that random roll, but initially that die roll operates on a purely random fashion.
Every time a melee attack is performed, your attack damage is calculated in part by a function (PDIF) which pulls a random number from a given range. How is this any different than a Phantom Roll pulling a number from I-VI? Does this mean that all melee "deal purely in the random"?

Just because there is a random aspect to an action you take, that doesn't mean that you immediately consign all the results to pure randomness.

If by saying and meaning "truly random," the job cannot manipulate rolls past the initial die being cast (e.g. rerolling again to get a possibly better effect, while taking the risk of getting a worse or the worst), then what pray tell would be so equally setting of the playing field for all CORS, like you are suggesting?
If Phantom Roll was really and truly "random," there would be no point to devising mathematical strategies for different rolls, because the outcome would be random.

Let me give you an example: suppose that your Lucky and Unlucky Number for any given roll were completely random (on a roll-by-roll basis), and you didn't know what they were unless you hit it. Let us also suppose that rolls did not increase in power at higher totals, but simply had random buff strength that was independent of your total. There would be no point to any sort of roll strategy, because the results would be --->random<--- and therefore completely unpredictable. You get what you get, and that's it. That is what complete randomness (your words) entails.

This is the type of scenario that you would expect from a job that dealt "purely in the random." But it's far from the way that Phantom Roll actually works.

Granted, but, unless I missed the memo, wasn't it not really worth it in the long run to re-roll anything 6+?
Yes, you missed the memo. If you run any sort of statistical analysis on Evoker's Roll (without a SMN in party), you can clearly see that the expected return clearly favors doubling up on any 1MP/tick roll. The lone exception would be if you already have a Bust, and even then it's uncertain; it would take some serious number crunching to analyze risk/reward in that scenario, since it would directly depend on how much time your current Bust has remaining (as well as other complex factors).

Furthermore, speaking strictly from a statistical standpoint, odds favor Doubling-Up on almost every roll if you're on a VI, as well as on a VII if that's your roll's U#. The odds of getting a result better than what you currently have are over 50%.

Your attempt to discredit what the original poster implied failed. No previous battle engine in FF operated on the 3D/1st person perspective that FF11 does, granted. But the "concept" and "idea" of what the THF job portended cannot get argued or ignored.
FFXI THF gameplay is nothing like any previous iteration of THF, in any way that matters. I don't know how else to put that.

If Squenix can completely revamp one of the longest-existing jobs in the FF universe solely on the basis of gameplay practicality, what's to keep them from doing the same to a job with far, far less tenure?

The job clearly starts out and is based on complete acts of randomness. But, sure, you can manipulate the job in one form and fashion. But, initially, its purely luck.
In the same way that every single melee attack in the game is based on "purely luck," sure.

[Goemon]

Before mathematical strategies even come into play, first and foremost, you have a choice of which enhancements to use. It's not like you just press a button and hope the slots don't cast a death spell on the entire party...
I agree with Spider-Dan, and this business of Corsair's being completely random sounds like pre-ToAU banter. Yes, the job may have random elements to spice things up, but it does revolve around strategy, planning, and timing.

Concerning the Corsair's AF, it almost feels like COR is being put on hold while they continue to think of ideas or ways to expand the Corsair class, and that this first AF set is merely just to satisfy the need for job specific gear. At least it looks cool!

As for AF increasing the efficacy of Phantom Roll, simply increasing its duration sounds a bit plain and un-Corsair like. How about increase the extremities of rolls?
For instance, if you roll a Lucky Number, it'd be even better, but Unlucky Numbers are also that much worse.
Also, after a Lucky Number is rolled, how about getting to role a bonus die (1-6, with each number correlating to a party member) to determine who gets an even bigger bonus? Of course, a system of determining who's who in a party would need to be implemented (i.e., the party leader is #1, etc), but this is just an idea anyway.
I love this job more than any other, but I don't think they're using it to its full potential...
If they want to get Corsair out of this "Not a Bard, but not quite a Ranger" status, they need to follow up on the unique attributes that should/would/could and do make up a Corsair. Cheers, and here's not only to AF2, but also to being a Corsair!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yes, you missed the memo. If you run any sort of statistical analysis on Evoker's Roll (without a SMN in party), you can clearly see that the expected return clearly favors doubling up on any 1MP/tick roll. The lone exception would be if you already have a Bust, and even then it's uncertain; it would take some serious number crunching to analyze risk/reward in that scenario, since it would directly depend on how much time your current Bust has remaining (as well as other complex factors).

My personal belief is that the current statistics, averages and "strategy" (it's f'n Blackjack for crying out loud) have only scratched the surface of the outcome of rolls. Let's not forget that all jobs have an elemental affinity and that things are affected by the days of the week and even moon phase in this game,

Just as an example, I've seen consistant 5s on Firesday for Fighter's Roll. Warrior's element is Fire. I think there's something to that, but its still random whether or not I get a 5.

As for scoffing the basis of COR from other parts of the series, you just don't know Final Fantasy. There are jobs that have to be adjusted for the MMO realm, but what makes a job like THF what it is is pretty much still here. TH and Steal function under many of the same rules the main series THF did. DRK had no real definition in the series prior to FFXI, just a "Darkness" attack.

Just about everything PLD has is derived from the main series, SAM just recently took a page from Auron's book. Look over Cait Sith's Limits and you're see some basis for the rolls we have now.

The reason we don't to have Reels is that latency would screw that up. It was replaced with a Blackjack variant based on job abilities. The basis is still Setzer, just altered to better suit online play.

Anyway, you can hyperanalyze the statistics of rolls, but at the end of the day, its all still random. And as someone else stated, if we got more job ability enhancements on AF aside from Quick Draw, what would be left for AFv2 and other endgame equipment?

The grass is always greener somwhere else. Point to O Hats and Crimson Gauntlets all you want, but I don't want them to be obseleted by AFv1. Perhaps you do since you've probably got some of those goodies and want something better.

[Spider-Dan]

My personal belief is that the current statistics, averages and "strategy" (it's f'n Blackjack for crying out loud) have only scratched the surface of the outcome of rolls. Let's not forget that all jobs have an elemental affinity
...what? Sources, please.

and that things are affected by the days of the week and even moon phase in this game,
I'm of the opinion that much of the superstitious belief in the effect of moon phase/day of the week is just that... superstition. For example, people go on and on about moon phase affecting drop rate and what not, but I have yet to see any sort of controlled test backing that up. I could just as easily argue that # of players in the zone affects drop rate.

Just as an example, I've seen consistant 5s on Firesday for Fighter's Roll. Warrior's element is Fire. I think there's something to that, but its still random whether or not I get a 5.
Unless you're saying that the statistical probability of you rolling a 5 is something other than pure chance, I don't see your point. And it would take a massive amount of data to convince me that V is a more likely result on Firesday.

No, I'd say selective data searching is the more likely conclusion; you notice V on Firesday because you're looking for them.

As for scoffing the basis of COR from other parts of the series, you just don't know Final Fantasy. There are jobs that have to be adjusted for the MMO realm, but what makes a job like THF what it is is pretty much still here. TH and Steal function under many of the same rules the main series THF did.
THF's Treasure Hunter functions under "many of the same rules" as it does in previous FF? Please explain.

Mug could easily function in the same way that it does in other FFs, yet it does not. FFXI THF is more dissimilar than it is similar.

The point is, your argument that COR should be a certain way because previous gamblers are is simply not relevant. Squenix has already shown that they prioritize practical, balanced MMORPG gameplay over historical ties (see: SMN).

Anyway, you can hyperanalyze the statistics of rolls, but at the end of the day, its all still random.
In exactly the same way that melee attacks are all "random," yes.

And as someone else stated, if we got more job ability enhancements on AF aside from Quick Draw, what would be left for AFv2 and other endgame equipment?
Let's see... perhaps better enhancements?

That's like saying that because AF has RACC+18, now there's "nothing left" to put on AF+1 or relic. It's a ridiculous argument.

The grass is always greener somwhere else. Point to O Hats and Crimson Gauntlets all you want, but I don't want them to be obseleted by AFv1.
Your strawman argument is irrelevant; just because I don't want AF to be completely obsoleted by existing endgame gear, that doesn't mean I want AF to obsolete them instead. "I breathe when I sleep" does not mean the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe."

Perhaps you do since you've probably got some of those goodies and want something better.
This doesn't even make any sense. Since I already own them anyway, why would I possibly benefit from having them be obsoleted by AF? That would only make sense if I didn't have them and wanted to avoid having to get them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Unless you're saying that the statistical probability of you rolling a 5 is something other than pure chance, I don't see your point. And it would take a massive amount of data to convince me that V is a more likely result on Firesday.

No, I'd say selective data searching is the more likely conclusion; you notice V on Firesday because you're looking for them.

Just about everything in this game is based on an element. Strength is based on Fire, Strength is the base stat for attack. Double Attack, Berzerk, Warcry and Attack bonus are all tagged with a fire red icon in the ablitiy/trait menus. Warrior's favorable element is undeniably fire.

I'm not saying Fighter's Roll ceases to be random on Firesday, just that the odds feel more favorable. I think the odds aren't consistant from day to day. Time will tell if any of my theory holds up.

THF's Treasure Hunter functions under "many of the same rules" as it does in previous FF? Please explain.

It doesn't affect rare drops. Rare drops are just that, rare. Drop rate functions have bounced between Thief and Gambler in certain FF games, but they only ever increased the drop of common items, never rare ones. If TH could increases the drop rate of rares, rares wouldn't be rare. The belief that TH affects rare drops is superstition.


The point is, your argument that COR should be a certain way because previous gamblers are is simply not relevant. Squenix has already shown that they prioritize practical, balanced MMORPG gameplay over historical ties (see: SMN).

Online play and social trends do affect how the jobs are played. However, I don't understand how previous installments of the series are irrelevant here. SMN would have to be toned down or it would be the only job anyone would ever play because the avatars would just relentlessly rape mobs. RNG had to be toned down for the same reason, hell,. last year MNK and WAR were considered subjobs, not DDs.

There has to be a balance due to social trends, the developers have to decide what that balance is, whether it makes the players happy or not.

But they can't also take a beloved franchise job and totally change what it is. Doing COR exactly the way Gambler was done in other games, nobody would invite them. A Dud on Reels that wiped the PT wouldn't make COR a popular invite, now would it? And yet, they couldn't just make another BRD class.

They had to think of ways to make COR different enough from BRD to still be a gambler while, at the same time, take nothing away from RNG or BRD.

So they took an aspect introduced in the MMO part of the game - job traits/qualities - and based our buffs around that. But as you've pointed out in your stat lists, the bulk of these buffs aren't straight stats (Attack, Accuracy, etc) like what BRD does, but percentages based on the stats your PT memebers currently have. The exception, as always, being Evoker's since it, Refresh and Ballad are just ruled by duration, not percentage.

Phantom Rolls replaces Reels with a smaller game of Blackjack via dice rolls. Hit the lucky numbers or XI and you're golden, hit unlucky or stick with a low number and your buffs stink. Bust and it reverses on the COR, rather than kill the whole PT.

Additionally, no job in the game that refreshed job abilities had existed yet, here was somewhere else COR could specialize. Random Deal and Wild Card are probably the most faithful aspects of COR to the previous series gamblers, but still, stuff like Phantom Roll has some basis on Reels, or did we miss that wheel of cards spinning around us and stopping on a random number?

With the percentage bonuses added to Job Traits by Phantom Roll, I don't see what enhancements would be added there. Lucky and XI make those job traits all the more better and everyone in buff range gets to enjoy the benefit. If something like Fighter's or Rouge's Roll were allowed to become more effective in terms of percentage than they already are, well, I can see a lot of downsides to that.

For one, like people see Hunters Roll or Madrigal as an excuse not to use sushi, COR could be the new excuse to not level a WAR sub. And its already been seen that it can make a TP Burn PT that much more deadly. I think Fighter's Roll is impressive enough as is. Other jobs can now enjoy the benefit of Double Attack w/o subbing /WAR. So enhancing PR could border on unbalancing.

Enhancing Random Deal. Jury's still out on whether or not anything affects it. It could be something they're saving for v2s, ToA endgame gear or even Group 2 merits. All I know is that its a buff that that resets random job abilities and funtions like a AOE attack, meaning, there's a chance it can be evaded. Perhaps DEX can change that, but seeing as its not aligned with any element, I don't believe a stat is meant to affect it.

Quick Draw effect enhancements we got, got some DEX, STR, INT, MND, HP and +18 Ranged Accuracy. Since we know what Quick Draw can do, we know why that enhancement is good.

Your strawman argument is irrelevant; just because I don't want AF to be completely obsoleted by existing endgame gear, that doesn't mean I want AF to obsolete them instead. "I breathe when I sleep" does not mean the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe."

What else could there have been? What the hell are you looking for here. I'm still waiting to hear ideas cuz you've been really vague about what could have been added outside of PR enhancment. What could be added to this set that from levels 60-72 woudn't overpower the AF or obselete endgame gear? What are you looking for in between?

Because, really, I don't think SE could do anything to the set to really make you happy.

[Spider-Dan]

Just about everything in this game is based on an element. Strength is based on Fire, Strength is the base stat for attack. Double Attack, Berzerk, Warcry and Attack bonus are all tagged with a fire red icon in the ablitiy/trait menus. Warrior's favorable element is undeniably fire.
So what's THF's element? Their best stat is DEX (lightning), yet all their JAs are green (wind).
So what's WHM's element? Their best stat is MND (water), which is also what their spells' effectiveness are based on... yet healing spells are light-based.
So what's DRK's element? They have the best STR/ATK stats in the game (fire), yet most of their unique spells are dark-based.
So what's COR's element? Have fun explaining that one.

Jobs are "obviously" based on a specific element... except when they aren't.

I'm not saying Fighter's Roll ceases to be random on Firesday, just that the odds feel more favorable. I think the odds aren't consistant from day to day.
That's a contradiction if I've ever heard one. If they odds are "more favorable," then it's no longer random.

THF's Treasure Hunter functions under "many of the same rules" as it does in previous FF? Please explain.
It doesn't affect rare drops. Rare drops are just that, rare. Drop rate functions have bounced between Thief and Gambler in certain FF games, but they only ever increased the drop of common items, never rare ones. If TH could increases the drop rate of rares, rares wouldn't be rare. The belief that TH affects rare drops is superstition.
Ironic that you call confirmed facts superstition, and vice versa.

Setting aside the fact that the onus would be on YOU to prove that TH makes any distinction between rare and non-rare drops, Squenix already cleared this issue up over 2 years ago (http://ffxi.crgaming.com/interviews/viewinterview.asp?Id=116):

Q: Does having a thief increase the possibility of a drop even in key/quest
items (aprons, skull, wadi grass, etc.)?

A: Of course! Only the thief has the ability to acquire the Treasure Hunter job
ability. There is an increased chance in obtaining dropped items.

Online play and social trends do affect how the jobs are played. However, I don't understand how previous installments of the series are irrelevant here.
Your argument was that COR "needs" to be a certain way because previous gamblers are. History shows that Squenix will happily discard tradition when it conflicts with practical gameplay. Hence, previous gamblers are irrelevant.

What else could there have been? What the hell are you looking for here. I'm still waiting to hear ideas cuz you've been really vague about what could have been added outside of PR enhancment.
Well, seeing as how Phantom Roll is our primary purpose in the game, I'd say that PR enhancement would be quite enough. And I'm pretty sure that I did mention reduced Bust penalties, as well.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You know, i give up. I'd continue with this "debate" but I keep laughing at this image in my head. Its of a man living in his parents basement flailing on his keyboard.

And here I thought I took the game too seriously. :rofl:

[Spider-Dan]

Hey, no objection here. You aren't providing any real support for your bizarre claims (TH doesn't affect rare drops? All jobs are based on an element? V on Fighter's Roll is more likely on Firesday?), so ultimately you can save ffxionline some bandwidth by ceasing to promote them.

[Radel-King_of_Pirates]

:wasted: damn not even a conclusion -_-

[Balodoth]

I'd just like to point out that "odds" do not contradict "random." Something can be random yet still follow an overall pattern.

While I can't hope to make an authoritative statement on whether jobs are element aligned, it does make sense since everything else is. The argument that somebody is just looking for lucky rolls doesn't hold water considering the length of the day and the length of the buff result in a relatively small cross-section of test samples. This is something that would need to be tested over the course of several firedays. If the pattern holds, it would need to be tested on several waterdays to enforce the pattern.

Another thing to remember is that S-E generally creates a system that is partially static and partially random. For instance, in the damage equation for melee, STR's comparison to VIT is static; however, ATK's comparison to DEF has a random element. Since the numbers here are bigger, the random element can amplify or fractionalize the comparison, and this part incorporates the weapon's damage value, the result is a larger window for damage. The static part of the equation is the focus of some jobs, which means a smaller but more consistent damage window. Other jobs focus on the random element and exploit the possibility for more damage. Studies done on spells show they tend to focus on static damage, yet they too have a random element of resistance.

Knowing this, it would make sense for COR buffs to have a static balance to their random nature. By tieing this to days and moonphases, it creates a dynamic static (which is something of an oxymoron if you think about it) that ensures the random factor is first and foremost. For somebody who would like to tweak the statistics of rolls via equipment or merits, I would think the possibility of inherent skewing would be of paramount interest.

I do know this though, there are a lot less people "looking for a pattern" of lucky numbers than there are people "looking for a pattern" of unlucky numbers and busts. Why else are there so many people unwilling to double up on 6 or 7? I would hope logic and math would win out over superstition, but these forums seem to indicate otherwise.

[Hantz]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h236/Vladamyr/darkprince.jpg http://www.ffcompendium.com/art/6-setzer-a.jpg Regarding this whole argument about "classic FF" vs. "FFXI gameplay," as douchey as it sounds, both camps are right. Omgwtfbbqkitten is right in saying that COR owes a lot to Setzer and other gamblers of FF past. And Spider-Dan is right in saying that it has nothing to do with the actuality of COR functions in FFXI.

Spider-Dan made a very valid point when he brought up THF in a classic vs. present scenario. Thieving in previous incarnations had very little to do with hate management and other FFXI responsibilities. FF1's THF didn't do anything remarkable besides turn into a NIN. The iconic green outfit & bandana hadn't even been established yet.

Kitten also made some valid points with insisting that the jobs we play every Vana'diel day come from a proud lineage, having been established for years. A WHM in full AF always sends me back to the 8-bit era. It's not fair to say that COR has "nothing" to do with gambler.

Here's where you are both right though. The thing about bringing classic jobs into an MMO is that you have to change it so it will work. I would kick every COR's ass I could find if they went around casting "Joker Doom" in XP parties, just out of principle. This isn't the same kind of world as previous FFs. Hell, each game basically had its own set of rules anyway (jobs, battle system, character freedoms/restrictions). It's not reasonable to think that a COR will play just like Setzer did, or a SMN will operate identically to Rydia, or that if you play a DRK you will inexplicably be called to Mt. Ordeals and come down as a bewildered PLD. But it's also not reasonable to forget about these defining eras of the jobs either.

What SE is bringing to us isn't a port of past jobs (RNGs would startlingly holler "Critt!" before a flying squirrel appeared out of nowhere if that were the case. DRGs would be awfully lonely too...) What they are giving us is something bigger than the sum of the job's functions. It's a theme that can appear in one world, disappear in the next, and then come back reinvented in the one after that. COR may be its own thing, but you can still see that Setzer was his great-great-great-grandfather. These jobs can change and somehow still be the same. They are ideas tied by a common theme from game to game.

So everybody wins. The conclusion to the argument finally appears. Good game <insert butt-pats and hand-shakes>.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Regarding this whole argument about "classic FF" vs. "FFXI gameplay," as douchey as it sounds, both camps are right. Omgwtfbbqkitten is right in saying that COR owes a lot to Setzer and other gamblers of FF past. And Spider-Dan is right in saying that it has nothing to do with the actuality of COR functions in FFXI.

Spider-Dan made a very valid point when he brought up THF in a classic vs. present scenario. Thieving in previous incarnations had very little to do with hate management and other FFXI responsibilities. FF1's THF didn't do anything remarkable besides turn into a NIN. The iconic green outfit & bandana hadn't even been established yet.

Kitten also made some valid points with insisting that the jobs we play every Vana'diel day come from a proud lineage, having been established for years. A WHM in full AF always sends me back to the 8-bit era. It's not fair to say that COR has "nothing" to do with gambler.

Here's where you are both right though. The thing about bringing classic jobs into an MMO is that you have to change it so it will work. I would kick every COR's ass I could find if they went around casting "Joker Doom" in XP parties, just out of principle. This isn't the same kind of world as previous FFs. Hell, each game basically had its own set of rules anyway (jobs, battle system, character freedoms/restrictions). It's not reasonable to think that a COR will play just like Setzer did, or a SMN will operate identically to Rydia, or that if you play a DRK you will inexplicably be called to Mt. Ordeals and come down as a bewildered PLD. But it's also not reasonable to forget about these defining eras of the jobs either.

What SE is bringing to us isn't a port of past jobs (RNGs would startlingly holler "Critt!" before a flying squirrel appeared out of nowhere if that were the case. DRGs would be awfully lonely too...) What they are giving us is something bigger than the sum of the job's functions. It's a theme that can appear in one world, disappear in the next, and then come back reinvented in the one after that. COR may be its own thing, but you can still see that Setzer was his great-great-great-grandfather. These jobs can change and somehow still be the same. They are ideas tied by a common theme from game to game.

So everybody wins. The conclusion to the argument finally appears. Good game <insert butt-pats and hand-shakes>.

Handshake perhaps, but I touch no man's ass:rofl:

[Hantz]

Handshake perhaps, but I touch no man's ass:rofl:

Touche'. I try not to myself, but if I had a nickel....