Have Square Enix gone too far with the latest BRD changes?

[Dux]

Hi All.

Was just looking at the changes to BRD in this patch and I am stunned at what S.E. have elected to do.

1) Troubadour - Doubles effect of songs at the cost of 1.5x casting time.
Square Enix just gave us our two hour ability (well almost) on a recast timer less than 2 hours.

2) Nightingale - Halves casting and recast time of songs
If we can learn both traits this is just insane. just use (1) followed by Nightingale to negate the +50% speed decrease.

Whilst I think BRD has totally come out top on this update, closely followed by THF (who has been long due a reward for getting THF to 75) I can't help but feel that BRD will be adjusted again in the future.

What does everyone else think?

[Tsikuro]

Don't really think it's overpowered... think of it as a second 2HR, but lv75 onry.

[Regenshire]

The 2 hour affects every song you cast for 2 minutes. Most likely, this ability only applies to the next song you cast. While it should be powerfull... it is a merited ability, isn't that the point?

Most of the jobs got very powerful abilities or spells. I don't think it is out of line at all. It shouldn't make us any more in demand then we already are, really.

[Balfree]

Sounds pretty leveled to me, they are the true buffers in this game after all, they deserve it

[Regenshire]

I do have one question though. Will this and the 2 hours stack? Could you throw up your 2 hour and then this ability to give a song x4?

[Balfree]

XD...

Absolute Virtue just went "WTF!"

[Dux]

I do have one question though. Will this and the 2 hours stack? Could you throw up your 2 hour and then this ability to give a song x4?

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that. I guess somebody is just gonna have to try it. :) Sadly it wont be me as once again S.E placed this maintenance from 6pm to erm... whenever it finally finishes... UK time so I wont get to play for another 18 hours when I get back from work.

[Balodoth]

Elegy

[Neomage]

I wonder if Troubadour will work with Ballad...

[Goldesper]

Troubador only increases the length :o Oh well I like Nightingale(sp?) :)

[Feba]

Length? GG SE, way to get our hopes up by tricking us with a somewhat correct help message yet totally incorrect.

[Icemage]

Confirmed with LS mates who purchased it. Troubadour doubles duration, not effect. Very bad help text translation there.


Icemage

[Meth]

Now I'm glad I got Nightingale first. But I can see using SV + Troubadore for extra long effect. Perhaps pop SV, sing songs as normal, then recast with Troubadore + Nightingale before SV wears off.

[Icemage]

I'm not really seeing the point of Nightingale. Endgame bards already have access to a fair amount of fast cast gear (Shi'ar Manteel, Rostrum Pumps, Loquacious Earring), and even the slowest songs only take 8 seconds to cast.

Considering the 1+ second it takes to activate Nightingale, you save what? 2-3 seconds off the casting time of one song? What sort of situation is so critical that a buff song taking effect 2-3 seconds slower is going to make or break you?

I think the two new songs are actually more powerful than either of the job abilities.


Icemage

[Regenshire]

Well, that is dissipointing. Ah well.

[Dux]

Hi All.

Now its clear that the textual description of Troubadour is totally wrong it looks like our two new skills aren' going to introduce a revolutionary change to the BRD class.

I will still get both anyway as the extra duration could be useful, albeit in a limited way, in ToAU merit parties. As for Nightingale, well I guess I will see what opportunities I get to use it.

[Goldesper]

Personally I<3 Nightingale, especially for burn parties. WHen things start to get a little bit fuzzy, and you only have 1/2 your buffs on from an exceptionally long pull, pop nightingale. Ballad I & II Takes 10 seconds, then Minuet III & IV Take 10 seconds, and you still have time to pull.:)

[Initial Cat]

Yea I agree with the above poster on the usefullness of Nightingale... pulling in thickets or any other tp burn party is difficult (I only have Rostrums to lower my song cast times) with the songs you have to juggle and the sheer speed in which you have to pull. Anything that would lower song cast times is {/welcome}

[Pillowcase]

I'm dissapointed.

Bards have so little Job Traits in the first place, it's about time they introduced some more. But they could have thought of something more origional.

[MikeDee]

I'm dissapointed.

Bards have so little Job Traits in the first place, it's about time they introduced some more. But they could have thought of something more origional.
Cause BRD isn't over powered already? :3

Consider the fact BRD can make a sushi war a God with 2 songs, and you want more Job Traits :rolleyes:

[Pillowcase]

I've never played as a Bard before, in fact I just started (level 6 WHM). I was planning on going from 1 - 75 with Bard, however, so I looked up all the job traits for bards. They get a 2h and three silence resistances... That's it. The other classes I looked up had a pretty nice variety and a much longer list of traits and it blew my mind slightly. I mean, I guess Bards don't need much more than what they have as far as traits becasuse, I assume, Bards get the job done but it appears lackluster. Not the case for the traits of all other classes.

And when I looked at the new merits for the Bard, I was dissapointed. I mean, look at the THFs merits. Those are some nice, nice rewards for leveling 75 all over again!

I'm not suggesting that Bards need to get buffed, I'm saying I think Bards have lame job traits, which they do.

I'm still gonna play Bard, though. Support classes are my favorite class to play in MMOs.

[Dryhus]

Ask the population of Vana'diel if they invite DRGs for Ancient Circle, or MNKs for Subtle Blow. Don't worry about JAs or JTs. Melee get a ton, mages get few. Conversely, mages get a whole bunch of spells/songs/etc to make up for it. You get invited for how effective you are on the whole, not for how many crappy JAs you have.

Also, merit JAs aren't going to make the trip to 75 any easier.

[Pillowcase]

I'm not suggesting that Bards need to get buffed, I'm saying I think Bards have lame job traits, which they do.


Also, merit JAs aren't going to make the trip to 75 any easier.

Exactly. Leveling to 75 all over again isn't easy. I just wish Bards were rewarded like the other jobs.

But I dunno, I guess the Bard is overpowered as it is.

[Murphie]

The strength of a Bard lies in what they can do with their songs, not what they can do with their Job Abilities. You won't have any trouble leveling from 1-75 as BRD so long as you are willing to be one of the busier jobs in the game.

They don't really need anything else.

[Pillowcase]

The strength of a Bard lies in what they can do with their songs, not what they can do with their Job Abilities. You won't have any trouble leveling from 1-75 as BRD so long as you are willing to be one of the busier jobs in the game.

They don't really need anything else.

*sigh*

I'm not saying a Bard is underpowered or needs upgrades...

All I'm saying is that when I looked at all the new merits, the Bard's seemed like cheese.

Whatever, I was under the impression that this thread was created for people who were just posting thier opinions on the new Bard merits.

[Balodoth]

I believe the reason people tend to disagree with you, Pillowcase, is that they realize BRD doesn't do anything on their own. A BRD's power is expressed through the party. So it isn't supposed to have a plethora of special abilities. The songs ARE the special abilities. . . which are conferred on the party and against the enemy.

You say you just began, but I expect you've seen them in action if you already decided to play one. Just wait until you play BRD. You'll see that they can already do pretty much whatever they want. They don't need abilities and traits to make them more effective. They only need ones that protect what they do already (i.e. Resist Silence) and give them a little more breathing room to accomplish what they do now (i.e. Merit Abilities).

[Murphie]

*sigh*

I'm not saying a Bard is underpowered or needs upgrades...

All I'm saying is that when I looked at all the new merits, the Bard's seemed like cheese.

Whatever, I was under the impression that this thread was created for people who were just posting thier opinions on the new Bard merits.Yes it is. And I think the update was fine. BRD didn't really need any help anyway.

[Ziero]

The update was supposed to help balance the jobs more while giving everyone something new whether they needed it or not. Now the strong jobs (War, Mnk, Brd) got minor buffs with very few WHAOMG changes while the weaker jobs (thf, Drk) got things to greatly improve their standing.

Brds don't need Jas/Jts for the sake of having Jas/Jts as they can go 1-75 in less then a month. Their base gear on average is cheap while their abilities are always wanted in both EXP and endgame situations. SE knows this and gave them minimal, yet still useful, upgrades to assist them in their job.

[Goldesper]

I think that instead of giving us the useless resist silence traits (I've resisted a

grand total of 15 times in my ENTIRE CAREER OF BEING A BARD, and some of those

are debatable, as they were JAs and they &quot;Missed&quot; me, I did't technically &quot;Resist&quot;

it.). Instead at like.... level 40 give us a 5-10 minute timer and give it a stupid

name or w/e somethign like &quot;Magic Voice&quot;, and make it cure silence for the target.


But thats just my 2g.

[Pillowcase]

So, what I gather is the Bard songs alone make them self suffecient for all situatuions and thier JAs are just fluff, apparently.

...And 2, leveling to 75 all over again isn't worth it for the Bard, primarily because if it's not a song, it's fluff...?

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the merits?

Sounds like nobody's excited about the Bard merits.

Brds don't need Jas/Jts for the sake of having Jas/Jts as they can go 1-75 in less then a month.
Seems to me like they added new JAs/JTs for the sake of having new JAs/JTs and lame ones at that.

I think that instead of giving us the useless resist silence traits, instead at like.... level 40 give us a 5-10 minute timer and give it a stupid name or w/e something like &quot;Magic Voice&quot;, and make it cure silence for the target.


But thats just my 2g.

Yeah, for real.

What about a Job Trait that gives Bards a chance to scare or stun beasts, or one that has a chances to revive someone.

What about a Job Trait that turns aggro. Say if there's two mobs, 'Fascinate' one of them and have it attack the other.

To me, that's a nice support class ability/trait.

[Murphie]

If you're leveling just for the merit JAs, you're probably leveing for the wrong reasons anyway.

As has been mentioned (several times), BRD is a very well-balanced job. It really didn't need any help. Even if it had gotten nothing during this most recent update, it would still be just as desired for parties as it is today.

[Pillowcase]

If you're leveling just for the merit JAs, you're probably leveing for the wrong reasons anyway.

Uhh... No way in hell would I level bard just for the crappy merits.

As has been mentioned (several times), BRD is a very well-balanced job. It really didn't need any help. Even if it had gotten nothing during this most recent update, it would still be just as desired for parties as it is today.

When did anyone in this thread say (even once) that the Bard class was unbalanced or needed any kind of upgrade?

[Hantz]

So, what I gather is the Bard songs alone make them self suffecient for all situatuions and thier JAs are just fluff, apparently.

This is how I see it:

First off, what is a JT? It's basically a permanent buff (despite how weak/strong it may be). Now since Bards are buffers, they are basically able to apply JTs for a limited time via their buffs.

A Bard's songs are his strength and they just happen to be classified as their own class of ability. You could just pretend that songs were JAs and not be too off.

Corsairs illustrate this more litterally, since their buffs are often specific JTs. You'll notice they only have 1 JT for themselves. The main difference between their buffs and Bard buffs (in regards to JA, JT and all) is that their usefull abilities happen to be JAs. If Phantom Rolls were their own class of magic, Corsairs would likely have a selection of JAs comparably anemic to Bards.

When a job is able to apply bonuses so similar in function to JTs, they just tend to have very few. They can easily add them, unlike other jobs that are padded with all the JTs they will ever have on their own.


I'm sorry, I'm at work. People keep messing with me. I'm not even sure what my angle was anymore. Oh well.

[Pillowcase]

This is how I see it:

First off, what is a JT? It's basically a permanent buff (despite how weak/strong it may be). Now since Bards are buffers, they are basically able to apply JTs for a limited time via their buffs.

A Bard's songs are his strength and they just happen to be classified as their own class of ability. You could just pretend that songs were JAs and not be too off.

Corsairs illustrate this more litterally, since their buffs are often specific JTs. You'll notice they only have 1 JT for themselves. The main difference between their buffs and Bard buffs (in regards to JA, JT and all) is that their usefull abilities happen to be JAs. If Phantom Rolls were their own class of magic, Corsairs would likely have a selection of JAs comparably anemic to Bards.

When a job is able to apply bonuses so similar in function to JTs, they just tend to have very few. They can easily add them, unlike other jobs that are padded with all the JTs they will ever have on their own.


I'm sorry, I'm at work. People keep messing with me. I'm not even sure what my angle was anymore. Oh well.

I understand that a Bard's song is more of a job ability than it is a spell, I mean, only bards can perform songs; hence 'Job Ability'.

But anyway, on to what I was talking about.

'Troubadour' and 'Nightingale' aren't that useless, but the fact that they are the rewards for taking the time to level 75 all over again, I deem them lame.

Example:
Theif: Assassin's Charge - "Obtained with merit points. Triples your next attack."
Paladin: Chivalry - "Obtained with Merit Points. Converts TP to MP."
Warrior: Savagery - "Obtained with Merit Points. Adds TP Bonus effect to Warcry." (PASSIVE)
Ninja: Sange - "Obtained with Merit Points. Consumes remaining shadow images to perform ranged attacks. Requires Shurikens."

These are all pretty cool merits...

Bard: Troubadour - "Obtained with Merit Points. Increases the casting time of songs by 1.5 and doubles the effect duration"
Bard: Nightingale - "Obtained with Merit Points. Halves the casting and recast times of songs"

Although these new abilities will make the bards alot more powerful, they're not as cool as the other merits.

[Hantz]

Bard: Troubadour - "Obtained with Merit Points. Increases the casting time of songs by 1.5 and doubles the effect duration"
Bard: Nightingale - "Obtained with Merit Points. Halves the casting and recast times of songs"

Although these new abilities will make the bards alot more powerful, they're not as cool as the other merits.

It's all relative. The Bard's new merits don't really compare to the melee merits. I mean, how cool can boosts to buffing really look next to throwing a damned tomahawk or shooting shadows? Would it be cooler to have the Bard shoot fire out of a freaking flute? Their new merits fall in line with how the job works.

And like Murphie said, merits aren't the main reason to get to 75.

[Pillowcase]

Hahaha!

Are you kidding me? Shooting fire out of my flute would be THE BEST!
Their new merits fall in line with how the job works.
What about a Job Trait that gives Bards a chance to scare or stun beasts, or one that has a chances to revive someone.

What about a Job Trait that turns aggro. Say if there's two mobs, 'Fascinate' one of them and have it attack the other.

To me, that's a nice support class ability/trait.

And like Murphie said, merits aren't the main reason to get to 75.

Uhh... No way in hell would I level bard just for the crappy merits.

[Hantz]

What about a Job Trait that turns aggro. Say if there's two mobs, 'Fascinate' one of them and have it attack the other.

To me, that's a nice support class ability/trait.

Hmmm...interesting. (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php/Maiden%27s_Virelai)

No need to waste a merit on that.

[Icemage]

What about a Job Trait that gives Bards a chance to scare or stun beasts, or one that has a chances to revive someone.

What about a Job Trait that turns aggro. Say if there's two mobs, 'Fascinate' one of them and have it attack the other.

To me, that's a nice support class ability/trait.

Lullaby. Hymnus. Virelai. Want to know how often the latter two get used ? (correct answer: almost never)


Icemage

[Pillowcase]

Well, that sucks.

Seemed to me like tha'd be useful.

[Omniblast]

Lullaby. Hymnus. Virelai. Want to know how often the latter two get used ? (correct answer: almost never)


Icemage

Hymnus gets used a lot.

[ClydeArrowny]

'Troubadour' and 'Nightingale' aren't that useless, but the fact that they are the rewards for taking the time to level 75 all over again, I deem them lame.

By the way, you dont have to level to 75 a second time to get merits. Once you hit 75 you can switch from exp mode to merit mode. In merit mode you gain Limit Points instead of EXP, but at the same rate you would gain EXP.

Every 10,000 Limit points you get, you get 1 Merit Point. In order to activate one of the new merits such as Nightengale, you need to use 3 Merit Points. To upgrade one of these to level 2, you would need 4 more Merit Points. To cap it at level 3, 5 more Merit Points. Not everything meritable follows the growth of 3->4->5. The old job specific merits are 1->2->3->4->5, base stats like CHR are 3->6->9->9->9 and magic skill such as singing skill would be 1->2->3->3->3->3->3->3. Depending on how many merits you get it can be like leveling to 75 again, purely from the sheer number of Limit Points needed, however, you always stay at level 75.

[Corthaemus]

Example:
Theif: Assassin's Charge - "Obtained with merit points. Triples your next attack."
Paladin: Chivalry - "Obtained with Merit Points. Converts TP to MP."
Warrior: Savagery - "Obtained with Merit Points. Adds TP Bonus effect to Warcry." (PASSIVE)
Ninja: Sange - "Obtained with Merit Points. Consumes remaining shadow images to perform ranged attacks. Requires Shurikens."

These are all pretty cool merits...I don't know if it's the blm in me talking, but Elemental San > Sange. I agree with you, though, Pillowcase. Bard should get something flashy. Cause I'll be damned if that job doesn't look super-boring.

[Icemage]

Hymnus gets used a lot.

In Dynamis, once in a while. Maybe if you know you're going to wipe, but good Dynamis groups tend not to have to worry about that in most areas (with the exception of that most painful Hydra Corps stupidity section of Dynamis-Beaucedine, and perhaps on the tank party versus Angra Mainyu). Otherwise? I can't think of too many other situations where you know you're going to get smoked for sure and have the time and opportunity to sing Hymnus.


Icemage

[Thott]

Hymnus gets used a lot.
Can I ask when? I am 75brd and I maybe use that damn song like once every 6 months

[Heimdal00]

So, what I gather is the Bard songs alone make them self suffecient for all situatuions and thier JAs are just fluff, apparently.
...And 2, leveling to 75 all over again isn't worth it for the Bard, primarily because if it's not a song, it's fluff...?
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the merits?
Sounds like nobody's excited about the Bard merits.
Seems to me like they added new JAs/JTs for the sake of having new JAs/JTs and lame ones at that.
Yeah, for real.
What about a Job Trait that gives Bards a chance to scare or stun beasts, or one that has a chances to revive someone.
What about a Job Trait that turns aggro. Say if there's two mobs, 'Fascinate' one of them and have it attack the other.
To me, that's a nice support class ability/trait.

Lol... dude, there are songs that do each of those. ^_^;
Lullaby puts mob asleep, elegy slows mob (close enough to scare/stun)
Hymnus gives reraise. And Virelai charms a mob, so it can fight for you.

Not needing MP for any of this is itself the best Job Trait!

[Mini Neruto]

Hmmm...interesting. (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php/Maiden%27s_Virelai)

No need to waste a merit on that.

O_o. I didnt know bards had that. Is it any good? I'd think it would fail a lot because it says it's not as good as BST charm. Seems weird they would try to sneak that extra song in.

[Deeman]

In Dynamis, once in a while. Maybe if you know you're going to wipe, but good Dynamis groups tend not to have to worry about that in most areas (with the exception of that most painful Hydra Corps stupidity section of Dynamis-Beaucedine, and perhaps on the tank party versus Angra Mainyu). Otherwise? I can't think of too many other situations where you know you're going to get smoked for sure and have the time and opportunity to sing Hymnus.
Icemage

ya I agree. Oh and its cool to spam it in Besieged lol, but thats it. Almost never used.

[Karinya]

Death happens a lot vs. both Limbus bosses, too. Not necessarily wiping the whole party, but it's common enough that you want some kind of reraise on everyone, all the time (and non-tanks are not even kinda safe). Hymnus is free and takes less time to activate than a RR item. Beseiged, especially Mamool Ja Savages when there's a ninja around, is another good example.

People are likely to die vs. DL, too, but it probably isn't worth hymnusing them because (a) you have a lot of prep time where you can use a RR item anyway and (b) even if they do die without RR, they weren't going to contribute any more to that fight if they had been able to get back up, because it's so short.

Oh, and if you're doing Divine Might with less than 10 BLMs, you're going to have to prepare for at least the possibility that you'll only manage to kill half of them before wiping, then get up and kill the other half.

It's pretty much a song for high level alliance (or bigger) battles where death is common, not for exp/merit use; that isn't really a condemnation of it, just a description.