banning the use of windower is discriminating

[Kutch]

..catchy title, isn't it?

I thought I'd share my thouhts on this.

First of all, I have 4 computers at my desktop, so I have no need to use a windower application. I play 3 accounts, and use the 4th computer to check my email, to look up tradeskill, monster, and area information.

I am a working person, so I have money and can afford to have several computers at home. Other people might play FFXI on Xbox or a PS2, and hence use their home computer for checking up extra game info, such as recepies, area information or just surf out of boredom.

Now, there are many, many players that play on a computer that cannot afford a second one, maybe because they are without their own income, or maybe they just don't want to.

In any event, banning the use of a windower is discriminatory against these persons. The logic being that people that can afford to have a computer next to their running FFXI game will have an advantage over those that cannot.

The claim, as I have seen it from many people here, is that it makes it easier for people to cheat with 3d party tools IF they can run FFXI in a window. Stating this is just as stupid as stating that cars shold be banned, because you CAN run people over with them.
It is just as stupid as saying that crowbars shold be banned, because they can be used to break into other people's homes.

If SE instead of CLAIMING to have an "Unsurpassed" GM presence in the game, actually logged on to ANY of the other MMO's out there, they would quickly learn that their GM presense in the game is ridiculous. What SE needs to learn, is that ANY community, including a virtual one, like Vana d'Iel, needs police. And as hundreds of years of examples from all around the world can show you - PRESENCE is all. Make GM's visible, and have them patrol random areas of the game as often as echonomically possible.

Some games, such as Everquest, even implement teh concept of deputization, meaning, regular players, like you and me, can undergo some off-track training to perform tasks as GM assistants. This deputy service is performed on another server than the one that the player normally plays on, so that he/she is perfectly anonymous - and it works! well!

More GM presence, and deputization is IMO a much better way of catching cheating players than simply barring people without a second computer from using a tool that allows them to open up internet explorer and do other tasks than just play the game.

That, friends is my logic for stating that the windower apps out there shold not have a raison d'etre, SE shold give everyone the option to ALT-TAB themselves.

Not doing so, is just a discrimination of honest players that cannot afford a computer next to their FFXI game.

[Bitter Wisp]

More GM presence, and deputization is IMO a much better way of catching cheating players than simply barring people without a second computer from using a tool that allows them to open up internet explorer and do other tasks than just play the game.


That is the largest violation. There is no excuse for ever opening that piece of shit.
But i agree. Windowers should be allowed.

[Feba]

Vana d'Iellol!


Anyway, there's already another thread or two for the rest of the post.

[Shopee]

Since when is SE responsible for people being able to do stuff on the computer while they play?

To be honest, I don't see the discrimination here.*

*- I'm still trying to see the connection. Could you clarify?

[Myaku]

<snip>... a discrimination of honest players that cannot afford a computer next to their FFXI game.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but discrimination only works as an arguement if it is against a protected class. Last I checked, "People Only Able To Afford One(1) PC" was not a protected class. Insert Coin. Try Again.

[Kutch]

Since when is SE responsible for people being able to do stuff on the computer while they play?

To be honest, I don't see the discrimination here.

The discrimination, since you don't see it is this:

I got enough money to have a computer next to me JUST to surf the net with, run Messenger for chatting with friends, running music in the background, checknig email - all the stuff that you CANNOT do while running FFXI on a computer.

People who do not have the means to buy another computer to do this - cannot d this. They cannot look up a recepy on the net, they cannot look up information about loot, or what item drops where, etc, because to do this, they need a second computer. Computers are cheap to me, but to a student, they are not.


Get the idea? :)

[Shopee]

The discrimination, since you don't see it is this:

I got enough money to have a computer next to me JUST to surf the net with, run Messenger for chatting with friends, running music in the background, checknig email - all the stuff that you CANNOT do while running FFXI on a computer.

People who do not have the means to buy another computer to do this - cannot d this. They cannot look up a recepy on the net, they cannot look up information about loot, or what item drops where, etc, because to do this, they need a second computer. Computers are cheap to me, but to a student, they are not.


Get the idea? :)

Not quite. I wasn't aware it was a right to be able to look up recipes while playing the game.

All it means is people with more money have more options, and have access to more luxuries.

This is usually how things work, no? I mean, I see this akin to arguing that a company is discriminating against those who can only afford low end PCs, because people with low end PCs can only handle the game, and not something in the background, whereas people with more money can.

[Mog]

lol!


lawlerz!

And I agree. Windower should be allowed.

[DakAttack]

IE > Firefox

JUST GET AN ANTIVIRUS AND POP UP BLOCKER YOU NERDS

[Feba]

Why run five different programs, when I could run one, AND have super-cool plugins to boot?


OH NOES, PLUGINS, I HAVE AN ADVANTAGE OVER THE IE USERS WHO CAN'T... well, that joke was going somewhere, and i'm too lazy to finish it. Eh.

[Kutch]

Not quite. I wasn't aware it was a right to be able to look up recipes while playing the game.


It isn't a human right, lol, but it's unfair. And SE shold see this, and enable ALT-TAB in FFXI - plain and simple.

[Shopee]

It isn't a human right, lol, but it's unfair. And SE shold see this, and enable ALT-TAB in FFXI - plain and simple.

Gotcha. I just associate "discrimination" with something a lot heavier than being able to browse a net while playing the game ^^;

It would be great if SE enabled ALT-TAB, but I can't call them out on banning windower.

It's perfectly within their rights as a company.

P.S. Great avatar. Moose rawk.

[Mhurron]

It isn't a human right, lol, but it's unfair. And SE shold see this, and enable ALT-TAB in FFXI - plain and simple.You can't alt-tab on the PS2, so SE providing a windowed environment for the PC version would be 'unfair' for the PS2 users.

In short, you agreed to it, no it's not unfair.

[DakAttack]

Why run five different programs, when I could run one, AND have super-cool plugins to boot?


OH NOES, PLUGINS, I HAVE AN ADVANTAGE OVER THE IE USERS WHO CAN'T... well, that joke was going somewhere, and i'm too lazy to finish it. Eh.

Sorry, I forgot. Sloth is the mother of invention.

[Feba]

You can't alt-tab on the PS2, so SE providing a windowed environment for the PC version would be 'unfair' for the PS2 users.Um, yes you can. Change the freaking channel. That's what PC users are asking for, and PS2 users can, with their equivilent.

[Stooky]

A easy thing for square to do is have a update or somthing that adds a way to minimize ffxi. I mean I used to use windower up till this banning for it. my freind had 5 of his freinds banned for using windower ( Some were level 75's with elite gears). It really does nothing harmful but all MMO's are like this with third party software. But even on WoW the mod early on that added more hot keys they thought of it as a good idea and actualy added it in game. But, square is not like that, expecially since there banning for a program that lets you minimize or even open Firefox or your internet explorer to help with the game. Now that i dont have it i keep hitting windows key and shutting my ffxi off and i have to exit if I need to search anything since I only have one computer. I don't see why square thinks its so bad! So square, can you give up a windower update for the game or just allow the program? Pretty please with sprinkles on top! ^^

PS: Why is my rep red? Did I do somthing bad sometime ago here?

PSS: Also They should make a way so Windows key does not close ffxi... right next to alt and ctrl both your macro keys and... if they dont allow windower why can they atleast make windows key not work so I dont shut it down all the times becuase of my clumsyness....

[Kailea]

It isn't a human right, lol, but it's unfair. And SE shold see this, and enable ALT-TAB in FFXI - plain and simple.


life is not fair, deal with it

I am in that group "only have one PC and cant/wont get another one" do you see me whineing? no, I just use windoer, with all the plugins disabled, and to this day I have nto been banned or anything in my whole 3 years of playing

and I dont care what you tell me or who you know, if they where banned, it was not just for useing windower.

[Mhurron]

Um, yes you can. Change the freaking channel. That's what PC users are asking for, and PS2 users can, with their equivilent.No, changing the channels would be using a different computer, since you are no longer using the PS2.

[Kailea]

what most people are getting at is that a PC is ment to run many things at once,. not just one program.

[Feba]

No, the TV is the computer, the PS2 is the half-assed game engine.


The TV is made to switch between different channels, the Computer is made to switch between different windows.

The PS2 is made to do ONE THING, and ONE THING ONLY, the half assed game engine is designed to do ONE THING and OnE THING ONLY.


People bitching that PS2 doesn't get a windower is just retarded, since PS2 *DOESN'T HAVE A WINDOW FUNCTION AT ALL*.

PC *DOES*, which is why they named it *Windows*.

[Yeargdribble]

I think Mhurron is just trying to stir up shit like he usually does by pretending to not understand.


If you are on PS2 you can
-Change the channel
-Go to your otherwise unoccupied computer to look shit up.

If you are on PC.
-Your computer is occupied... you can't look shit up unless you can run the feckin' internet on your PS2.



Using Windower just gives PC users the ability to use their computers while playing which is something every PS2 player with a computer can do.


Someone on the BG forums put it quite well (paraphrasing):

"Our company has decided to stop making boltcutters. Although there are many legitimate uses for boltcutters we feel that boltcutters make it easier for thieves to cut open locks. (Despite that fact that if we took our boltcutters off of the market theives would just fashion their own devices for doing the job)"

Sure windower makes it easier to use FFXIapp and stuff like that but punishing people that just want to be able to use the rest of their computers isn't the way to go. If windower was disabled a handful of things would happen.

-75% of the endgame population would straight up quite (don't believe me go read an endgame forum like BG)
-The makers of programs like FFXIapp would find ways to make their program either operable without windower or create a pseudo-windower of their own to make it work.

[Hiroshi]

lets all write a petition that usually works!! and if we can't get 500 sigs by this week we'll write in fake names!

1. Hiroshi
2. Jack Bower
3. James Bond
4. Leeroy Jenkins
5. Boxy Brown

LET THE SIGNING BEGIN!!

[Mhurron]

No, the TV is the computer, the PS2 is the half-assed game engine.So its the TV that provides the interface to the controllers? Or the network interface, or the ability to do anything other then watch something.

Your TV is a monitor, when you change inputs on it from the PS2 to something else, you hit a button on an KVM switch. You are no longer using the PS2 at all, which is still chugging away on FFXI.

the Computer is made to switch between different windows.No its not. Windows provides but does not guarantee that behavior. I could put any number of OS's on my systems that do not provide task-switching behavior.

You chose to allow this behavior, no one forced it on you. A computer is not made to switch between tasks, it is told to do what you tell it to, and when you launch FFXI you told it to let it have fullscreen.

BTW the PS2 is just a computer as well, give it an OS that can task switch and it will. Is SE now required to provide that OS to you since a 'Computer is made to switch between different windows.'

[Feba]

Note "The" not "A" in reference to computers.

FFXI only is (supported) on Windows OS. Windows OS is made on the principal of switching windows.

PS2 does not officially support any OS, except the one that it comes prepackaged with. PS2 is not capable of changing their task (while keeping it running), or Web Browsing, or anything else that windows OS is able to do (by default)

There is no reason to make a whole new OS for PS2 so they can use programs and do things which PCs can do, which PS2s were not made to do.

There is a very good reason to allow ffxi to switch between windows for a system which it is designed to do such on.

Really, you're just being idiotic about this, a PC which can run FFXI legally and supported uses Windows OS. Windows OS can switch windows and programs, and run multiple programs other than games, including web browsers and messangers and the like.

PS2s cannot switch windows and programs, and run multiple programs, and have hardly anything they can run outside games.


What you're saying is basically that it's unfair that cars get windows and doors because motorcycles don't.

[Icemage]

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've yet seen in support of the windower (which, I should note I don't personally use but don't care about either way when it's just used to just activate other non-FFXI related apps).

By the logic of the original post, all paid MMORPGs are discriminatory against the people who can't afford to pay the monthly fee. In fact, real life discriminates against people with less money. Gee, we can't have that, can we?


Icemage

[Mhurron]

PS2 does not officially support any OSThere is an official Linux distro with X for the PS2 from Sony.

Show me where MS guarantees every application will run windowed. Windows can have many windows open, but the keyword is can. There is nowhere where it says must.

Do you complain this much when you order a cheeseburger and a cheeseburger shows up? You agreed to allow the behavior, it was never forced on you, yet people whine and complain like it is some moral travesty.

[Feba]

I stand corrected on the PS2 issue. Last I read about it, it was still all done with modding.


Still though, even with that, I heavily doubt that you gain the ability to "Window" other PS2 programs, if you can even play them.

There is no promise that everything will be windowed, however there is no good reason that FFXI shouldn't be, except shitty programming on SE's part.

This would be more like a cheeseburger in shrinkwrap, of course you'd complain, the packaging makes eating it a pain.

[Mhurron]

There is no promise that everything will be windowed, however there is no good reason that FFXI shouldn't be, except shitty programming on SE's part.It was not poor programming, it was by design.

A game loosing focus is an important event, how should it react? The DirectX api keeps track of whether or not a game has full screen, has focus or is a background task. When the games state changes, DirectX fires an event, what the game does with that event is up to the programmer. Do nothing and the event is ignored, with unknown consequences. Catch it and you can deal with it. Should the game be paused? Should the game exit? This is up to the programmer.

When you alt-tab out of FFXI, the game exits, returns you to POL where POL informs you what happened. This means this is by design, not poor programming. When the game really crashes due to an unexpected event, POL doesn't recover from it.

[Kailea]

look simple solution, wait for Windows Vista, its specail Direct X10 is supost to allow anything to be run in a windw, even if the games does not have a windowed mode ^.^ so if it works like it is supost to, the people "just using Windower" will nolonger have to use it. Oh and there will be a free version of Vista released, so dont five me the "I cant buy it" BS ^.^

[neighbortaru]

why in the blue blazes is there yet another windower thread :rolleyes:

please use one of the existing threads lol
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/general.ffxi.discussion/59164-because.we.never.have.enough.windower.threads.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/general.ffxi.discussion/59150-sooooo.2k.accounts.suspended.html