Because We Never Have Enough Windower Threads

[sevenpointflaw]

Okay, this is purely a matter of curiosity. There a several pro/anti windower threads going. If you have something to add to those, do it there. This is thread is only to establish a poll because I'm genuinely curious as to how many people actually want windower.

SO...

For the purpose of this poll I will define a "soft cheat". A "soft cheat" is a cheat (gaining an advantage PS2 or 360 players do not have) that does not have a direct, visible affect on other players.

Specificly included are Windower plugins like TParty, Blood Pace, and Distance. Minimaps would also be included, as are /ja and /ma count-down timers, HP% readers on Mobs, etc. Basicly, anything that already exists in a -readily- available method, but changing the nature of that method (Distance = a hard number instead of guestimating on the small radar, for example.)

Please just try and use common sense.

EDIT: For the record, I am talking about PC only. Not adding any "soft cheats" to PS2 or 360 users, -even- if they are added to PC. Please take that into account when you vote.

[ikkleste]

provided that the same info was available for all, i'd have no objection to option 2. I think considering what is available in other MMOs the GUI could do with a facelift, in general, the game has come a long way since release. The main issue i can see is the low res of low end PC's and PS2 limiting the amount of info on the screen while still being practical to see what going on.

i think option 1 is a more likely request, but tbh i can't even see them budging that far.


After your edit:

I would have voted "Yes, however they should not include any of the "soft cheats"" Instead of "Yes; and they should include "soft cheats" as well"" if you aren't going to update the GUI on the consoles. Windower should still be made legitimately available.

[durecellrabbit]

Opps, I misread the poll, can you change my vote from 3 to 1 please.

[Mog]

Yes, only because it's not cheating per-say. What am I going to do? Instant messange someone on an outside source to get information while I'm playing the game?

Give me a fucking break.

This is the same as playing on your ps2, and surfing the internet simultaneously. There is NO difference.

[sevenpointflaw]

I wonder if using a cell phone to contact my friends to get on to get to the HNM thats up and unclaimed is gainst the ToS... It is a third party device... ~_^

Consequently, if I could poke a moderator or administrator... SE seems to at least on the surface be intersted in what premier communities have to say. I would like to ask if there is a significant vote turn out - REGARDLESS of how the voting turns out, could this be broached to SE in the form of a question?

IE: Our users show an overwhelming support for wanting a windowable FFXI, will we get it?

Also, I don't know if any of you are in contact with other NA premier communities, but if you are, I say hell with it. SE wants to know what the premier communities want - start polls in all the NA communities and the HOUND the admin to pose the resaults to SE like they asked.

[Ashady]

I havnt actually played the game YET... but i always play games in windowed mode. And during down times ill switch songs or IM somone (depending on the game)

I chose yes but without hacks

[Ellipses]

The only way any of the "soft cheats" as you call them would be okay is if they were added to all versions. Officially adding them to just the PC version would be ridiculous. (Especially since it would probably be easier for them to add it to all versions than to try and maintain different codebases for that stuff.)

[sevenpointflaw]

Be that as it may, the poll is meant to focus on adding one function to FFXI for PC users as is. And with that regard, the three schools of thought seem to be "No Windower," "Windower," and of course, "Windower with basic plugins."

The poll is very specificly not meant to be "Does the GUI for FFXI need an overhaul on all platforms, and should it include better counters, tp display, etc."

That, IMO, is a very different question then "Should PC users be able to play FFXI in a windowed mode."

Hope that makes sense?

EDIT: I would hope that PS2/360 players vote as well in that regards though, since that is often thier biggest concern. If they don't mind windower itself, but do not like plugins, then by all means! Support the PC users. If you think even windowing itself is unfair, then by all means! Vote no!

[Ellipses]

Should have made this clear, but I was just stating my reason for voting the way I did. Since the poll is specifically about the PC version, I consider that option (windowed mode + hax) idiotic. (Not idiotic to include in the poll, idiotic to vote for.)

[sevenpointflaw]

Ah... I misread what you meant. ^^ Its all cool :)

[Macht]

I can bounce between 1 or 3, definatly not 2 though.

[Omniblast]

Will I get reported for using a Logitech G15 keyboard, which includes a 3rd party application made by Logitech to make macros on the fly with the macro button. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

They did hand out these keyboards over at Fan Festival '06.

[Kisshu]

I'm choosing number 1.

An option to minimize the window with a program from SE like the option you got in a game like Guild Wars wouldn't ruin the game for anyone. All it would do would be as if you just had 2 computers, one to play on and one to search for information.

However, I'm strongly against anything that isn't official from SE and that everyone in the game doesn't have access to, if you would add the ability to see full PT TP, then PS2 and X-BOX would also have to have them.

If SE added these options, it would no longer be cheat, but seriously, good players don't need to know hom much TP their skill partner has, the skill partner will make sure to announce his or her TP if needed or asked.

[Mazon]

I don't care about TP. I don't care about Drawdistance. I don't care for windower aside from it's function to allow me to go in and out of the application to use my PC without having to log out > in.

Voted 1

[Herrisa]

I'm choosing number 1.

An option to minimize the window with a program from SE like the option you got in a game like Guild Wars wouldn't ruin the game for anyone. All it would do would be as if you just had 2 computers, one to play on and one to search for information.

However, I'm strongly against anything that isn't official from SE and that everyone in the game doesn't have access to, if you would add the ability to see full PT TP, then PS2 and X-BOX would also have to have them.

If SE added these options, it would no longer be cheat, but seriously, good players don't need to know hom much TP their skill partner has, the skill partner will make sure to announce his or her TP if needed or asked.

I have the same opinion. I don't mind if the window can be minimized, but strongly against anything that benefits one platform to the detriment of another.

[Medalink]

The wondower aspect is not the problem, its the other "uses" it has.

I personally dont care, but it is even so slitley an "unfair advantage" over ps2, and x360.

Medalink

[Rodin]

The wondower aspect is not the problem, its the other "uses" it has.

I personally dont care, but it is even so slitley an "unfair advantage" over ps2, and x360.

Medalink

Add TParty, Distance Mod, and IME options to PS2 and 360, and there's no unfair advantage. (Which SE could do pretty easily I'm sure).

[Aeolus]

I have the same opinion. I don't mind if the window can be minimized, but strongly against anything that benefits one platform to the detriment of another.

Less lag on the PC damages the xbox and ps2 doesnt it? Claimwise,casting etc, in fact it effects everything pretty much lag does. I dont know, Im asking.

Neway TP soft cheat is ok I think but none of the others. Certainly shouldnt be used for speed hacking, warping etc.

[Murphie]

I voted 1. If all three platforms don't have the same plugins available then I don't think they should be available for PC. But I definitely think the game should be alt-tabable.

[Macht]

Will I get reported for using a Logitech G15 keyboard, which includes a 3rd party application made by Logitech to make macros on the fly with the macro button. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

They did hand out these keyboards over at Fan Festival '06.

Well want a similar aspect to this. My company's gave me an all expense payed vacation once. The catch was I was not to mention that the vacation was all payed by the company to the employee's.

Similar thing there, likely the app by logitech to make the macros could be violating. As long as you don't brag about it on the game though then they basicaly just slipped you something to cheat but expect you to be quiet about it. If you arn't they are not responsible if you get in trouble for it's use.

Double Post Edited:
Add TParty, Distance Mod, and IME options to PS2 and 360, and there's no unfair advantage. (Which SE could do pretty easily I'm sure).

I know they can, but like a MUD I built stuff on. We came to find that giving to much data to easily for the players to obtain was also taking away a challenge aspect. It was in this that we took away the players ability to see mob HP, and for the spirit elements and bodysnatchers we made the true numbers obscure to the players.

It a matter of what's to much info that makes it to easy and what's not enough that makes it impossible. In all situations having to know everyones TP is not going to always be a life or death situation, this just makes the game to easy and is removing an intentional challenge.

[Matera]

Windowed mode would rule.

Plugins, however, I don't care for.

[Macht]

Less lag on the PC damages the xbox and ps2 doesnt it? Claimwise,casting etc, in fact it effects everything pretty much lag does. I dont know, Im asking.

Neway TP soft cheat is ok I think but none of the others. Certainly shouldnt be used for speed hacking, warping etc.

FYI, game is hard set to a 56Kbps transfer rate. About the best that a PC can do over an xbox and ps2 is get you into the next zone 1 or 3 seconds earlier provided that all platforms have a clean 56Kbps connection or higher.

Otherwise the game pre-loads mob objects so unless there is a large number of players coming and going out none of the systems have any huge advantage over the other. Well no advantage as long as no one is hacking.

[Etra]

If "soft cheats" means "Japanese IME," then yes please. :D

[Lilani]

I use a windower I got from a Japanese web site, for many reasons. I used Azaril's windower at first, but when I discovered the JP one I liked it much better. As a disclaimer, the main reason I use a windower is because I get *much* less lag without it, and I can minimize it if I need to look up a map, or if my computer surprises me with an update and annoys me with popup warnings about it.

With Azaril's, you can't just get a plain old windower. You get all this crap that takes a while to figure out how to use and that just adds more things to look at. Yes, seeing your party's TP is a handy tool, but it's extremely tacky if you want to take screenshots. And in game you can sometimes hit the wrong button and mess something up. One time I accidently hit the button that changes the lighting and I honestly thought I broke the game or my screen >.<;

Also, with Azaril's, it takes a while to decide what you want. Last time I looked around to see what they had I was just like "oh come ON all I want is to minimize the freaking game, I don't care about blood pacts!"

And on top of all that, you can't use your key that makes the ~! Even if you change it, that only means you can't use another key, and you never know when you might want to use it! I like my ~ man. We don't agitate the ~. The ~ has work to do.

JP windower is just a plain minimizer, which is why I <3 it so.

[Murphie]

And on top of all that, you can't use your key that makes the ~! Even if you change it, that only means you can't use another key, and you never know when you might want to use it! I like my ~ man. We don't agitate the ~. The ~ has work to do.Hee! The lack of ~ (or another key if I reassign) was one of my biggest problems with the windower. :P

[Linra]

Voted 1, the "soft cheats" aren't needed, I just want to Alt-tab!!
And yeah, ~ is my favorite key, I don't know what I'd do without it ;.;

[soonk]

seriously,, even if it wasnt windowed mode id appreciate being able to alt-tab

[Feba]

FFXI's GUI needs to be revamped, for all versions.


Although 1 is the only good choice, SE won't listen to PC users if they expect to be treated above PS2 users

Double Post Edited:
and you can change the console key in windower, I use "numpad." since there's really no other time you'd ever use that key for typing.


or you can just not set one, and control windower through /console.

[ifandbut]

I voted for 1 because I think it is the only way SE would even consider adding a windower.

Yes, seeing your party's TP is a handy tool, but it's extremely tacky if you want to take screenshots.
Actualy if you do a "screenshot jpg hide" at the windower concle then it will hide all windower added features and just make it look as if you took the screenshot with fraps or something.

[Murphie]

Which key is numpad?

[Feba]

numpad.



As in "numpad."


numpad.


Just copy paste "numpad.".

[Murphie]

That isn't an answer to the question I asked. :P

[Feba]

numpad is the little thing on the rightside of your keyboard. numpad. is the . on numpad.

[Murphie]

I know what the numpad is. I use it every day. XD I just wanted to know which key would become the console key in that case. Thanks for clearing that up. ^^;

[soonk]

ill be honest, and im sure its the same for murphie, i didnt notice the "." after numpad until your last post. he probably thought you meant a key called numpad
just a guess

[Murphie]

Since I believe in this crazy thing called punctuation, I really didn't see that at all. In fact, until soonk pointed it out, I still hadn't realized that.

When I see a period at the end of things, I just assume that it's a way of tidying up the end of that sentence or phrase. Or word. Whatev.

Makes a lot more sense Feba. Sorry for being retarded.

[Feba]

Sorry for being retarded.I understand, you are an elvaan at heartaru.

[Murphie]

Oh no you di-int.

[XaviarCraig]

There already is a legit way to get FFXI windowed without ANY 3rd party programs. Its called using WINE within linux. It creates a windows enviroment within linux, it is NOT emulation and therefore does NOT cause windows programs to run slower. It simply creates a DOS and windows compatibility layer within linux. With slackware I can actually get FFXI to run better than in windows XP or server 2003.

How does it let FFXI run in a window? Because it creates the windows enviroment(Or subsystem for those who are familiar with M$'s slang) within linux. If you use KDE or some other GUI in Linux you can get the subsystem window any size you wish and the programs will not know because they are sealed within the windows layer. FFXI/POL THINKS its running in full screen mode when it only is within the subsystem window.

Problem solved, no 3rd party programs/plugins that get your ass canned. WINE is not a program, but a compatibility layer for linux. Therefore, you arent breaking the TOS

I cant believe people are smart enough to go through the trouble of making a seperate program that lets FFXI run in windowed mode in windows, yet too stupid to take the time to learn/use linux and a few extras for it. Linux is open source and free as well.


NOTE1: WINE it self needs some tweaking to get most programs running, but its nothing you cant do with a multibooted computer (Linux/DOS/Windows)

NOTE2: This isnt something someone can walk you through. You have to get off your crusty ass and do it yourself. Problems that emerge will be different for everyone depending upon how to they go about getting FFXI to run in WINE.

[Kailea]

There already is a legit way to get FFXI windowed without ANY 3rd party programs. Its called using WINE within linux. It creates a windows enviroment within linux, it is NOT emulation and therefore does NOT cause windows programs to run slower. It simply creates a DOS and windows compatibility layer within linux. With slackware I can actually get FFXI to run better than in windows XP or server 2003.

How does it let FFXI run in a window? Because it creates the windows enviroment(Or subsystem for those who are familiar with M$'s slang) within linux. If you use KDE or some other GUI in Linux you can get the subsystem window any size you wish and the programs will not know because they are sealed within the windows layer. FFXI/POL THINKS its running in full screen mode when it only is within the subsystem window.

Problem solved, no 3rd party programs/plugins that get your ass canned. WINE is not a program, but a compatibility layer for linux. Therefore, you arent breaking the TOS

I cant believe people are smart enough to go through the trouble of making a seperate program that lets FFXI run in windowed mode in windows, yet too stupid to take the time to learn/use linux and a few extras for it. Linux is open source and free as well.


NOTE1: WINE it self needs some tweaking to get most programs running, but its nothing you cant do with a multibooted computer (Linux/DOS/Windows)

NOTE2: This isnt something someone can walk you through. You have to get off your crusty ass and do it yourself. Problems that emerge will be different for everyone depending upon how to they go about getting FFXI to run in WINE.

have you tried WINE in Linux with FFXI, from what I understood it has never worked, and still does not work right at all.

[XaviarCraig]

I run FFXI on wine/slackware some times. I had ALOT of issues at first, but after I replaced/changed a several files it worked... Might not be legal since I replaced a few files in wine with the REAL windows ones... Some of them were causing problems.

Some of the files in wine for the enviroment are identical to the windows ones... but alot of them differ and I needed to actually replace them with server 2003 versions of them. Even though I got it working it still crashes once every 15 to 45 minutes so I dont always use it to run FFXI. I believe if I got off my ass and actually tryed to fix the problems I could probably get it to work better.

EDIT: Biggest problem with wine and most programs is that the WINE enviroment files are not always remade correct. Since they(WINE development team) refuses to do anything that might be illegal, it is a slow process of creating a decent windows enviroment in linux. However if you do do things potentionally illegal its easy to get alot of programs working...

EDIT2: Actually, I dont think I could do much better than I already have on my own. I am not a programer, and I cant modify certain files at fault that well. Some files used in the enviroment cannot simply be swapped out for reasons unknown to me.

[DakAttack]

Windows was never meant to run on a Linux operating system, so while you think you're in open waters, SE might have sharks with lasers attached to their heads circling your boat.

[Kailea]

I run FFXI on wine/slackware some times. I had ALOT of issues at first, but after I replaced/changed a several files it worked... Might not be legal since I replaced a few files in wine with the REAL windows ones... Some of them were causing problems.

Some of the files in wine for the enviroment are identical to the windows ones... but alot of them differ and I needed to actually replace them with server 2003 versions of them. Even though I got it working it still crashes once every 15 to 45 minutes so I dont always use it to run FFXI. I believe if I got off my ass and actually tryed to fix the problems I could probably get it to work better.

EDIT: Biggest problem with wine and most programs is that the WINE enviroment files are not always remade correct. Since they(WINE development team) refuses to do anything that might be illegal, it is a slow process of creating a decent windows enviroment in linux. However if you do do things potentionally illegal its easy to get alot of programs working...

EDIT2: Actually, I dont think I could do much better than I already have on my own. I am not a programer, and I cant modify certain files at fault that well. Some files used in the enviroment cannot simply be swapped out for reasons unknown to me.


oh thats pretty cool, good job on that ^.^ I will admit, I am not very good with Linux, basicly just because I am not used to it

[Nimrod4154]

Stop complaining about it. THey don't allow it, plain and simple. It is easier to cheat using Windower and that's just how it is.

[Suteru]

that's a stupid reason

It's easier to kill someone using a gun, but people were killing other people long before guns were invented

[Nimrod4154]

that's a stupid reason

It's easier to kill someone using a gun, but people were killing other people long before guns were invented
It helps remove cheaters, whether you like it or not.

[Kailea]

It helps remove cheaters, whether you like it or not.


heheh wrong, it is just as easy to cheat without windower, if you know how, not allowing a windowed mode on a PC that is running an OS designed with the window concept is kind of silly. I understand they where going for the "same experiance" thing, but that was going a bit to far -.-

[soonk]

all it helps is make cheaters find more ways to cheat. they can and will find a way around it. if you dont believe that then SE must have programmed all the current cheats for them, because any normal game doesnt come out w/ the intention of having cheats

[Hamlet]

I don't get when people say that it's just as easy to cheat without windower/other stuff as it is without. I can't think of something easier than downloading a program, some plugins, running it and pressing some buttons. Sure, it's possible to hack without windower, but it requires alot more than that.

I think that SE should create a windowing capability that would hopefully allow them to have better control over what it can do.

[soonk]

um im pretty sure you dont have to dl cheats right before you use them, and most cheats run either as the game loads or before it

[Kutch]

The whole concept of NOT allowing ALT-TAB is plain stupid. There is no higher amount of cheaters on other MMO's that can task switch.

Cheaters will cheat, whether windowed or not. Everyone is not a cheat, just because they're task switching.

[Feba]

Really, I bet if SE did release an official windower, Archbell would shutdown entirely, or at least the Archbell Windower would.


It's pretty common knowledge that the folks that make the windower actually hate FFXI and have hardly any time to work on it, so if SE provides an official alternative, I doubt they'll put any effort into making theirs work.

[Asir]

I play on a PS2 and I voted 1. If I need to check a recipe for crafting or look up some stuff to help a friend through a quest, I just set myself down in a safe area and head to my computer. I don't care about the windower, use it all you want as long as it doesn't have the cheats available. The windowers that do come with the soft cheats just make it more tempting for those wanting an easier ride to use the more heavier cheats in my opinion. I know not everyone that uses the TP thing will use the speedhacks or instawarps but the few that do are the ones that have made Windower such a big issue.

Being able to look up the same things I can while playing should not be against the terms of service just because we play on different machines. If they were to add the soft cheats to an SE made Windower, I would expect them to add the soft cheats only to the console versions since we don't really have a need to window our games... Unless you feel the need to play two games on the same console at once.

[Nimrod4154]

heheh wrong, it is just as easy to cheat without windower, if you know how, not allowing a windowed mode on a PC that is running an OS designed with the window concept is kind of silly. I understand they where going for the "same experiance" thing, but that was going a bit to far -.-
I bet the majority of the people who used cheats had used Windower to help them.

[Feba]

I bet the majority of the people who used cheats had used Windower to help them.


The majority of people use windower anyway. That's like saying a lot of people used cars to rob a bank, of course they did it's the fastest way most people have to get around, doesn't mean the government bans cars.

Anyway, Windower really doesn't help run any of the old hacks. which ran through keyboard commands, and the new ones I beleive come with their own windower anyway. It's not impossible to get windows above FFXI even in fullscreen mode, FFAssist was a demonstration of this initially, when it actually wouldn't work properly with windower.

[Nimrod4154]

The majority of people use windower anyway. That's like saying a lot of people used cars to rob a bank, of course they did it's the fastest way most people have to get around, doesn't mean the government bans cars.

Anyway, Windower really doesn't help run any of the old hacks. which ran through keyboard commands, and the new ones I beleive come with their own windower anyway. It's not impossible to get windows above FFXI even in fullscreen mode, FFAssist was a demonstration of this initially, when it actually wouldn't work properly with windower.
The majority? I wouldn't say that the majority of the people use any 3rd party programs. I'd say most people just play the game without alt+tabbing. Just my opinion.

[Feba]

The majority of PC users, yes.


I hate to break it to you, but the majority of PC users do you use windower. Most of the rest don't know about it. The ones that do, and yet don't, mostly still find that SE should add a windowing function to FFXI.

[Shendokai]

i almost crapped my pants laughing when i saw your sig...
i always love seeing tarus sexually abusing people.

[Kailea]

The majority? I wouldn't say that the majority of the people use any 3rd party programs. I'd say most people just play the game without alt+tabbing. Just my opinion.

yeah roughly 50% of PC users use windower to play FFXI...... trying to remember where I got that info from... -.-

[Murphie]

yeah roughly 50% of PC users use windower to play FFXI...... trying to remember where I got that info from... -.-From merespeculation.com, I'd figure, since there couldn't possibly be any official numbers on that.

[Suteru]

about 90% of my PC-user friends use windower, trust me, it's a lot more used than you think.

[XaviarCraig]

Windows was never meant to run on a Linux operating system, so while you think you're in open waters, SE might have sharks with lasers attached to their heads circling your boat.

WINE is not running windows within linux. It simply creates a compatibility layer for windows programs. If it was simply windows in linux, then windows drivers would work with it. However it doesnt even have a feature to install/use windows drivers. Therefore; not windows on linux.

PCs were never ment to run more than 1 program at a time.

The CPUs used in PCs today are heavily based off the 8088 CPUs which were only designed for DOS with 640KB of ram... Yes 640KB of ram.

Do either of these facts stop us from doing otherwise?

We use many pieces of technology for things they are not ment to be used for everyday whether you realize it or not.

Since WINE is a compatibility layer that can run ANY windows program(with modification), in order to make FFXI not work in it; SE would have to take away windows support entirely. WINE uses windows files to create the the layer.



oh thats pretty cool, good job on that ^.^ I will admit, I am not very good with Linux, basicly just because I am not used to it


It was not easy in anyway shape or form. Learning how to use linux while starting from an advanced distro has been a painful confusing process for me. Learning how WINE functions and why programs dont work correctly in it is even more confusing to learn. Only reason I understand some of it is because I actually know how most windows components work from 95 to server 03.

Maybe if I can get the process of getting FFXI working in WINE under 100 steps I will make a guide to doing it here.


NOTE: I have asked GMs about it, and they dont seem to care. One GM actually laughed and said if I was willing to go through that much trouble to get FFXI running in linux, maybe I deserve to be able to have it windowed!

[Kailea]

From merespeculation.com, I'd figure, since there couldn't possibly be any official numbers on that.

no I remember reading it some where.... although they could have been BSing as well :p

but really that number still sounds like a valid number, since most PC users multi task programs

[DakAttack]

WINE is not running windows within linux. It simply creates a compatibility layer for windows programs. If it was simply windows in linux, then windows drivers would work with it. However it doesnt even have a feature to install/use windows drivers. Therefore; not windows on linux.

Compatability layer, whatever geeko, you know what I mean.

Playing games specifically developed for the Windows OS on Linux through l33t h4x and n1nj4 m4g1kz: NOT SUPPORTED


PCs were never ment to run more than 1 program at a time.

The process list in my task manager claims otherwise.

[Kailea]

ppppffff PCs where ment to only do one thing at a time? what PC are you useing?
PCs where built to runn as many thing as you can or want, pending on your hardware config, it was enver ment to run just one thing -.-

[soonk]

PCs were never ment to run more than 1 program at a time.

that made me laugh so hard:rofl: