Some members of my ls got suspended today for "not being in full screen mode" - meaning SE has been detecting windower.

When one rang up POL France, she was told 2k accounts have been suspended for 72 hours, though won't get full ban.

Just as a friendly warning to people to be careful when using windower (not that I am suggesting anyone does, but you know, you never know....)

Why do they even care? Last time I checked playing in windowed mode doesn't give you any unfair advantages and it doesn't bother anyone else either. It helps against falling asleep of boredom when LFG, though. I guess SE thinks that's bad.

I find it ridiculous how they have time to track down windower users who have no intention of cheating and leave all the obvious RMT groups to mess up the game as they please.

I was banned too, but I dont think it was for using the windower, I think that was just what they said it was for. I was personally using POS (warp tool) to warp between zones quicker on my low level jobs, so I'm sure this is what happened.

Some of my friends who were suspended were afk, and only were using windowed mode so....

And there is rumours this is 2k people on my server alone, let alone the rest...

Why do they even care? Last time I checked playing in windowed mode doesn't give you any unfair advantages and it doesn't bother anyone else either. It helps against falling asleep of boredom when LFG, though. I guess SE thinks that's bad.
It's because windower opens up the door to make bots/hacks easier. That and it is a 3rd party app, which is anti-TOS.

It's because windower opens up the door to make bots/hacks easier. That and it is a 3rd party app, which is anti-TOS.

The windower itself is a very powerful hack, but it does not allow bot macros and there are no plugins with cheats for it.

Sure, it's probably easier to run a cheat tool in the background if you can minimize the game, but it is not at all required. If SE ever thought they could somehow prevent cheating by simply locking the game to full screen they are fools.

Windowers are indeed against the ToS, but it only shows that the ToS is a failure. What if walking forward was suddenly made illegal and you had to walk backwards? I'm sure you'd agree that the law should not have to be followed. That kind of law would exist only for the purpose of being there.

Actually the windower plugins do indeed alow you to cheat. It's true when Cliff originally made the windower he said that he would keep it from doing things like sending movement and stuff that would alow you to automate stuff with the windower. He never allowed that. BUT, there's a file called WindowerHelper.dll that he didn't write, that will alow you to write plugins that will do ANYTHING through the windower, there is also a plugin called Lunar that alows you to write script in the Luna language and run it through a windower plug in.

I'll admit I was wrong in using the hacking programs, BUT I know for a fact not everyone using the windower was banned, because I had three accounts running last night, all three using windower, and only the one I was cheating on was banned. The other two are still on and running, so it wasn't purly the windower, it had to be something else as well. Also, my wife is currently playing atm with the windower.

If they are temp-banning people for windower alone, clearly they're trying to send a message. I'd like to hope this means they're going to start taking a more aggressive stance on the 3rd-party software that actually should get people banned (like POS), and this is just the warning shot across the bow.

Or they could just be dicks.

If they are temp-banning people for windower alone, clearly they're trying to send a message. I'd like to hope this means they're going to start taking a more aggressive stance on the 3rd-party software that actually should get people banned (like POS), and this is just the warning shot across the bow.

Or they could just be dicks.

I thought this was apparent from day one :P

Also, I seriously doubt it was windower alone. If so, it'd be more than 2k, I know 2k people alone on my server that use the windower, not to mention almost every JP player uses it.

You don't ban half your player base as a warning shot, though. You ban enough to make people notice. I'm sure there was some other criteria, though not necessarily not a "fair" one. ("In Lower Jeuno," "First hundred people alphabetically from each server," "has made a GM call while in windowed mode in the past," etc.)

Probably was something, though I really think it's using hacks in the past 24hours. I've been watching the hacker forums I visit, all are reporting mass bannings. I havn't heard from anyone that used a hack in the past 24hours that has NOT gotton banned. (I was in Algorph Reef, and my name starts with a Z :P)

Here's what POL has to say (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnews/news8139.shtml).

Today, a number of accounts which were confirmed to have violated the user agreement by using unauthorized third-party software tools within FINAL FANTASY XI to enable abnormal in-game movement were discovered and have been permanently suspended.

Based on the results of an investigation, over 2,000 PlayOnline accounts have been either suspended or terminated on Jul. 21, 2006 for the malicious and intentional use of this third-party tool.

We would like to take this time to remind our players that the use of any third-party tools will not only destroy the in-game balance, but will also encourage RMT (Real Money Trade) activities. We will continue to take strict actions against those individuals that we have confirmed to have used such tools.

Please note that some of these third-party tools tools may cause character information to be altered, erased, or personal information to be leaked to unwanted third parties. If you come across a third-party tool over the Internet, we ask that you please refrain from the download of such a tool, no matter how minor it may appear to be.

To ensure our customers could enjoy their games safely, we will continue to apply measurements to combat these third-party tools and violations.

We thank you for your cooperation and understanding in this matter.

Edit: Nothign to see here - already posted...

If the windower allows for hacks surely they are just banning the ppl using hacks and not the windower itself. That will just be the reason they give out. 2k ppl accross 15 servers isnt that much tho and ALOT more people than that use windower.

Permanently banned. Ouch.

Yea... like I said... movement tools. Everyone I've talked to used either Fleetool or POS.

Double Post Edited:
Just hope I didn't get perma banned, I just bought SH and two Snippers last night >.> With money I got legally thank you, I only use hacks to get around, it's easy to make money as a 75 BRD and WHM.

[url=http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnews/news8139.shtml]We would like to take this time to remind our players that the use of any third-party tools will not only destroy the in-game balance, but will also encourage RMT (Real Money Trade) activities.


Windower? eh..

Double Post Edited:
I only use hacks to get around, it's easy to make money as a 75 BRD and WHM.

And you have to justify yourself why?

Wasn't justifing myself at all, just didn't want people responding to my post saying "You probably deserve to lose all that money." I know what I did was wrong, and I deserve the 72 hour ban.

Well, then. Good riddance.

Unlike most hackers and scripters I'll admit to what I'm doing. I know it's wrong, and I know I run the risk of getting caught. I believe in honor amungst thieves in a sense. Catch me and I'll admit I was wrong. They wont catch my ass again, I can promise you that.

Windower is nice, but it's the TP tool I really use it for.

Luckily, there was no notification of the banning of my account, though I havent quite logged in yet reicently. I've been switching to playstation so my fiance can have her computer. She refused to use windower, which may have been her saving grace.

As far as SE being dicks, I'm of the opinion that it's SE's game, a game they try their hardest to be fair. It's the players that are dicks by doing exploits/hacks/rmt measures. SE is playing in their view, a defenceive war for the 'fair players' on their game.

It seems like it was only us normal people who got banned. My wife is sitting here stareing at three RMT NM campers in Castle O. SE still making money off their gil trade obviously.

Well there is a small prob lol
More then 80% of the people who play use windower because it allows you to also check stats and quest and so forth. They also use chat programs with their linkshell and use forums like these... There may be hacks but I do not see why they have gone to this level

Windowers are indeed against the ToS, but it only shows that the ToS is a failure. What if walking forward was suddenly made illegal and you had to walk backwards? I'm sure you'd agree that the law should not have to be followed. That kind of law would exist only for the purpose of being there.
Your logic fails.

Walking forward is a basic necessity to living life. Windower is not needed to play FFXI. You can play FFXI perfectly fine without windower, walking only backwards has a crippling effect.

And it's not like they suddenly banned windower. Third party apps have been wrong since day one. We have no comparison for a real life situation. The closest I can come up with is theft. From the age of understanding, we are taught that it is wrong. But even theft isn't a perfect comparison because it negatively affects another person.

However, I do agree that FFXI should be windowed.

Here's what POL has to say (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnews/news8139.shtml).

Today, a number of accounts which were confirmed to have violated the user agreement by using unauthorized third-party software tools within FINAL FANTASY XI to enable abnormal in-game movement were discovered and have been permanently suspended.

It would seem they only banned players using speed hack or similar cheats not plain windower users.

That's the impression I'm getting, because there are way more than 2k users using windower

I just wanted to ask a question to the PC users. So, does windower in fact make it
easier to cheat with hacks, and if so, would not allowing people to use windower
help cut down on the number of people using hacks?

I am a PS2 user so I really don't know much about how Windower or those other
3rd party tools work. So, I only see this as a good thing, because to me it evens the
playing field somewhat, if it indeed makes it harder to cheat.

Could we maybe start a petition for SE to add a windower to the game? Think it would work?

Personally, if you're using fleehacks for whatever reason and are caught I hope they ban your account permanently. Simply no excuse for using hacks/cheats in FFXI regardless of the excuse.

It might cut down hacks but if your on the PS2 or Xbox you can still check your pcs for quests/info etc so why cant we? Its not fair /cry.

The windower itself is a very powerful hack, but it does not allow bot macros there are no plugins with cheats for it.

Sure, it's probably easire to run a cheat tool in the background if you can minimize the game, but it is not at all required. If SE ever thought they could somehow prevent cheating by simply locking the game to full screen they are fools.

You're being very saddistic here. Many third-party programs like MrArgus, ToS and Fleetool are very hard/impossible to use when playing on Full Screen mode. I'm quite sure SE has no problems against windowing mode itself, the problem is that you can use tools/hacks easier. If you have a better idea of stopping cheats in a good possible way, rather post that than boycotting SE's actions. Their intentions is not to screw us over, it is to keep a fair balance for players. Also, Windower does have some plugins that are not really hacks, but still give unfair advantage. You explain them you don't use any of it. You, and thousands of other players.

They wont catch my ass again, I can promise you that.
Ahh... The ever elusive ass. :rofl:

I just wanted to ask a question to the PC users. So, does windower in fact make it
easier to cheat with hacks, and if so, would not allowing people to use windower
help cut down on the number of people using hacks?

I am a PS2 user so I really don't know much about how Windower or those other
3rd party tools work. So, I only see this as a good thing, because to me it evens the
playing field somewhat, if it indeed makes it harder to cheat.

I guess, if a PC user wants to browse the web while playing, buy a PS2! It sucks that Windower is forbidden, but it's far from irreasonable.

It might cut down hacks but if your on the PS2 or Xbox you can still check your pcs for quests/info etc so why cant we? Its not fair /cry.

Thats not completely true. Console users must first have a pc, then they must their internet set up so both can be online at the same time and of course having them close together helps. The first applies to me so if I want to check something I log out and go on my pc. It's not hard to tell your ls "brb, checking stuff online".

Shame it was never out on PS2 in Europe really then - all european players are screwed...

Double Post Edited:
It's not hard to tell your ls "brb, checking stuff online".

It is in the middle of Dynamis...

It might cut down hacks but if your on the PS2 or Xbox you can still check your pcs for quests/info etc so why cant we? Its not fair /cry.

But I have to have 2 things to do this. (PS2 + a computer to look stuff up)
I am not saying I am glad people can't look stuff up while they play, they shouldn't
use windower, etc.

I am glad they are banning people who are cheating though. Also, honestly, if it means
people have a harder time cheating, then I would be for suspensions for not playing
in full window mode also. (I know that sounds mean, but if I get a fair shot at claiming,
instead of going against bots, I think it is a small price to pay)

Ahh... The ever elusive ass. :rofl:

I've just have to stop using it. Mazurka gets me around quick enough I suppose.

Double Post Edited:
But I have to have 2 things to do this. (PS2 + a computer to look stuff up)
I am not saying I am glad people can't look stuff up while they play, they shouldn't
use windower, etc.

I am glad they are banning people who are cheating though. Also, honestly, if it means
people have a harder time cheating, then I would be for suspensions for not playing
in full window mode also. (I know that sounds mean, but if I get a fair shot at claiming,
instead of going against bots, I think it is a small price to pay)

I actually used the cheats, but I wont anymore. Now, I'd be happy about this if it actually stopped the people that needed to be stop. Go to Castle O, I bet you'll still see botters.

I guess, if a PC user wants to browse the web while playing, buy a PS2! It sucks that Windower is forbidden, but it's far from irreasonable.
I take it you don't realize that they no longer sell the version of the PS2 that runs FFXI. The HDD doesn't fit into the new slim ones. Plus, running FFXI at 640x480 sucks major donkey balls.

Your logic fails.

Walking forward is a basic necessity to living life. Windower is not needed to play FFXI. You can play FFXI perfectly fine without windower, walking only backwards has a crippling effect.

Actually, his logic does have merit. You don't need Windower to play FFXI, but you sure as hell need it if you also want to use your computer. As to his example, you don't need to walk forward to get to where you're going, but you do need to walk forward to see where you're going.

It is in the middle of Dynamis...

I doubt you suddenly decide to go and do Dynamis. Just write down or print out the information you might need before hand as part of your Dynamis planning.

I guess, if a PC user wants to browse the web while playing, buy a PS2! It sucks that Windower is forbidden, but it's far from irreasonable.

And it actually is FAR from reasonable. I spend $1,000 dollars on a computer that's capabale of running FFXI 3-4 times over, I paid $80(FFXI, CoP, and ToaU) bucks for the software, and an aditional $12.95 a month to play the game. Not only do you want to make my $1,000 machine useable ONLY by your game that I pay do play,,you want me to go out, buy a PS2, ($159.99 that they do not make anymore), plus buy the original FFXI (Which they do not make, $99.99), and each of the expansions $29.99 an expansion just so I can use my $1,000 dollar computer for something other than this game.

That's not unreasonable?

Actually, his logic does have merit. You don't need Windower to play FFXI, but you sure as hell need it if you also want to use your computer. As to his example, you don't need to walk forward to get to where you're going, but you do need to walk forward to see where you're going.
Okay, I get ya. Good point.

I doubt you suddenly decide to go and do Dynamis. Just write down or print out the information you might need before hand as part of your Dynamis planning.

So I spend money on paper and ink (Ink is expensive as hell) to do something that I have a $1,000 computer that is fully capable of doing? Printing out 3 or four full colored maps of Dynamis would hurt my ink supply big time.

One of the nicest features of Windower for those of us that have crappy computers is the ability to disable the Lighting which increases my framerate by 25%--great help in PT. If SE implemented some more graphics tweaks in Config, I wouldn't use it at all--I have a second comp for looking stuff up.

And it actually is FAR from reasonable. I spend $1,000 dollars on a computer that's capabale of running FFXI 3-4 times over, I paid $80(FFXI, CoP, and ToaU) bucks for the software, and an aditional $12.95 a month to play the game. Not only do you want to make my $1,000 machine useable ONLY by your game that I pay do play,,you want me to go out, buy a PS2, ($159.99 that they do not make anymore), plus buy the original FFXI (Which they do not make, $99.99), and each of the expansions $29.99 an expansion just so I can use my $1,000 dollar computer for something other than this game.

That's not unreasonable?

ToS hasn't changed since day one. You accept the rules when you play the game regardless of how stupid they seem. I'm a PC user and there are many times I'd have liked to use Windower but I refrained from using it and other more malicious tools in order to play.

How about when you're skilling up synthing.
You gain a level in your craft.
Or the element day changes.
Or the moon phase changes.
Or you need to check to see which synthesis image support you need.
Time is critical, as the most beneficial time to synth is slipping away.

That's when I use windower. Because I'm chained to the PC and taking that extra 2-4 minutes to log off > Craft Timer > log on is blowing me crafting session.

For all other uses though, Windower might as well not exist.
When I sit down to play FFXI. It's to play. Bored LFP, I get to synthing, farming, questing, or cleaning the house, cooking breakfast/lunch/dinner, laundry, garbage, TV. No excuse for being bored LFP.

Edit: And for those who would say get it on PS2 or Xbox.

PS2: I hate the system with a passion. Sold mine long ago after it sat collecting dust because it offered me nothing in the way of entertainment.

Xbox 360. I'm not spending $480.00 USD so that I can use my computer.

ToS hasn't changed since day one. You accept the rules when you play the game regardless of how stupid they seem. I'm a PC user and there are many times I'd have liked to use Windower but I refrained from using it and other more malicious tools in order to play.

Actually, the ToS has changed about every other month or so. It changes alot.

Actually, the ToS has changed about every other month or so. It changes alot.Perhaps, but not the part about using 3rd party programs.

Actually, the ToS has changed about every other month or so. It changes alot.

I was referring to the use of Windowers and Third Party Tools. Didn't think that needed clarifying though.

And it actually is FAR from reasonable. I spend $1,000 dollars on a computer that's capabale of running FFXI 3-4 times over, I paid $80(FFXI, CoP, and ToaU) bucks for the software, and an aditional $12.95 a month to play the game. Not only do you want to make my $1,000 machine useable ONLY by your game that I pay do play,,you want me to go out, buy a PS2, ($159.99 that they do not make anymore), plus buy the original FFXI (Which they do not make, $99.99), and each of the expansions $29.99 an expansion just so I can use my $1,000 dollar computer for something other than this game.

That's not unreasonable?

It is hard for me to see your point here. No one is making you play the game,
regardless of what else you can do on your computer while you are playing it.
Also, I hate to point this out but...

I was banned too, but I dont think it was for using the windower, I think that was just what they said it was for. I was personally using POS (warp tool) to warp between zones quicker on my low level jobs, so I'm sure this is what happened.

Maybe if people didn't do things like using warp hacks, Windower wouldn't be a problem.
Just sayin' :P

You said what you said, I was just correcting you.

Also, I've read somewhere that a few months back, the ToS was changed basically to allow 3rd party programs as long as the user is at the keyboard. But I'm at work and playonline.com is banned so I can't read the ToS. But I'm sure this was bullshit.

Also, I've read somewhere that a few months back, the ToS was changed basically to allow 3rd party programs as long as the user is at the keyboard. But I'm at work and playonline.com is banned so I can't read the ToS. But I'm sure this was bullshit.

Let's just say you could grow roses in that rumour.

Maybe if people didn't do things like using warp hacks, Windower wouldn't be a problem.
Just sayin' :P

Can you explain to me how exactly warp hacks hurt you? An NM claim hack would, they incorpate warping sometimes, but just mearly warping from the zone line of West Ron to La Thein doesn't hurt anyone.

Also, it's always going to be this way, someone will always take advantage of things. Yes, I was wrong, yes I shouldn't have been using them. And I wont be anymore.

So you're saying, if you bought your PS2 for $500 bucks, and installed FF on it for another $100 and then you were told, while playing this game, you can not listen to music, watch another tv, or talk to your friend on the phone this wouldn't bother you?

You said what you said, I was just correcting you.

Also, I've read somewhere that a few months back, the ToS was changed basically to allow 3rd party programs as long as the user is at the keyboard. But I'm at work and playonline.com is banned so I can't read the ToS. But I'm sure this was bullshit.
I recall a time when fish botting was legal as long as the player was sitting at his/her computer. I'm pretty sure that it was changed though and botting and 3rd Party use of any sort is now against ToS. While SE's policies change quite a bit, they remain fairly straight-forward. There's no reason that someone should break the ToS after accepting it even after changes are made to it. Whenever SE makes a large change, they let everyone know in some way and if a person manages to miss that notice, his/her friends in-game will most likely be buzzing with the information.

Originally there was no windowed mode implemented in FF:XI because the developers wanted everyone to have the same experience. Since the pc version is essentially a port of the PS2 version, it was never really part of the design anyway. The funny thing is, the equal playing field they mention can easily put a ps2 player at an advantage. When I first started playing, I was on a ps2 and it was easy for me to pull up maps and guides ect on my computer that was right next to my tv. Unless they have two computers, a non-windowed PC player is unable to do this as easily, as most people do not have multiple computers on the same desk or even in the same room.

When I moved to pc, I would get regularly bumped offline in fullscreen mode by any background error messages or firewall and virus scan alerts. Sure, SE recommends killing any background apps, but I never saw a benefit in putting my pc at risk to do so. Thus, I started to use the windower program. If SE ever decided to enable a windowed mode then I would think that at least 75% of the player population that uses the windower program would stop using it.

Windower by itself is not a malicious tool by any means, however as others have shown, it can open the door so to speak to the use of some really nasty stuff.

In the original EverQuest, there was no windowed mode for the longest time nor could you alt+tab out of the game. Similarly to FFXI, there was the EverQuest Windower program to let you run the game in windowed mode. But, Sony eventually wised up and implemented it's own builtin window mode so you wouldn't have to use the program. This also carried over to EverQuest 2.

EverQuest also had the largest hacks I've ever seen for a pay to play MMO game. There was MacroQuest. You could do pretty much anything with it. It had a very complex system macroing system. You could even use it list all monsters in a zone, and target them from anywhere in the zone. There was a map program that would give you a graphical display of where everything is in the zone (both monsters and players). There were speed hacks, fly hacks, warp hacks, etc. Yet, they still gave the users windowed mode.

Now, why can't SE wise up and do the same?

In the original EverQuest, there was no windowed mode for the longest time nor could you alt+tab out of the game. Similarly to FFXI, there was the EverQuest Windower program to let you run the game in windowed mode. But, Sony eventually wised up and implemented it's own builtin window mode so you wouldn't have to use the program. This also carried over to EverQuest 2.

EverQuest also had the largest hacks I've ever seen for a pay to play MMO game. There was MacroQuest. You could do pretty much anything with it. It had a very complex system macroing system. You could even use it list all monsters in a zone, and target them from anywhere in the zone. There was a map program that would give you a graphical display of where everything is in the zone (both monsters and players). There were speed hacks, fly hacks, warp hacks, etc. Yet, they still gave the users windowed mode.

Now, why can't SE wise up and do the same?

*dreamy sigh* MacroQuest was such an awsome program. I could unlock a chest from the zone line lol.

In the original EverQuest, there was no windowed mode for the longest time nor could you alt+tab out of the game. Similarly to FFXI, there was the EverQuest Windower program to let you run the game in windowed mode. But, Sony eventually wised up and implemented it's own builtin window mode so you wouldn't have to use the program. This also carried over to EverQuest 2.

EverQuest also had the largest hacks I've ever seen for a pay to play MMO game. There was MacroQuest. You could do pretty much anything with it. It had a very complex system macroing system. You could even use it list all monsters in a zone, and target them from anywhere in the zone. There was a map program that would give you a graphical display of where everything is in the zone (both monsters and players). There were speed hacks, fly hacks, warp hacks, etc. Yet, they still gave the users windowed mode.

Now, why can't SE wise up and do the same?

SE gets it right sometimes, it just takes them a looooooong time to do so.

Could we maybe start a petition for SE to add a windower to the game? Think it would work?

Windower + higher resolution screen capture + screen capture with text :)

doesn't matter too much with me anyways, already using Fraps.

Can you explain to me how exactly warp hacks hurt you? An NM claim hack would, they incorpate warping sometimes, but just mearly warping from the zone line of West Ron to La Thein doesn't hurt anyone.

Your right it doesn't hurt me, but it is cheating. No need to do it really when you can
run just like me. (I never said it hurt me, I just said that maybe stuff like that is why
they would not want people to use windower)

So you're saying, if you bought your PS2 for $500 bucks, and installed FF on it for another $100 and then you were told, while playing this game, you can not listen to music, watch another tv, or talk to your friend on the phone this wouldn't bother you?

Umm... while playing this game, I can't watch other stuff on the tv, or listen to music
on my tv. You can't talk to friends on the phone while you play? Oh wait, you said
if they wouldn't let me watch another tv. To do that I would have to have another
tv right beside the tv I play on. Is that not the same as having another PC to look
things up on?

So I suppose my answer to your question is no, it wouldn't bother me.

I wouldn't tell anyone to go out and spend more money just so they can look stuff up.
I had to stop playing (that's right) to look stuff up on computer for long time. My
computer was in a different room. Then I got an old laptop so I could look stuff up
while I played.

Windower + higher resolution screen capture + screen capture with text :)

doesn't matter too much with me anyways, already using Fraps.

yeah... I forgot that in my original post.

is it that much of a criminal action to want to take screenshots of cutscenes?

I can't understand why that was never implemented.

I have to agree with Grizzlebeard. Make excuses all you want, but every time you log into the game you agree to the ToS and the ToS states that 3rd-party software is illegal. Crying about it won't change the fact that using Windower is breaking the ToS, no matter if all you're doing is using it for checking the internet.

SE themselves probably don't mind Windower (they're not sending cease and desist letters to the creators anyway), it's all the people out there that are using it to cheat and hack their way through the game that they mind. Those are the people that you should be complaining about ruining it, not SE cracking down on people who do.

At least, though, this would explain that odd near-d/c experience I had last night. All I can say is scan all you want SE, I have nothing to hide. Windower-free since I started.

Umm... while playing this game, I can't watch other stuff on the tv, or listen to music
on my tv. You can't talk to friends on the phone while you play? Oh wait, you said
if they wouldn't let me watch another tv. To do that I would have to have another
tv right beside the tv I play on. Is that not the same as having another PC to look
things up on?

So I suppose my answer to your question is no, it wouldn't bother me.

I wouldn't tell anyone to go out and spend more money just so they can look stuff up.
I had to stop playing (that's right) to look stuff up on computer for long time. My
computer was in a different room. Then I got an old laptop so I could look stuff up
while I played.

My PC is my communication between me and my freinds, it is also my main source of entertainment for movies, anime, and tv shows. So SE, is more or less telling me I can't talk to my friends and I can't watch movies.

Also, a TV is what? $49.99 for a 12"? The cheapest computer is $499.99.

Can you explain to me how exactly warp hacks hurt you? An NM claim hack would, they incorpate warping sometimes, but just mearly warping from the zone line of West Ron to La Thein doesn't hurt anyone.


It doesn't hurt anyone directly, but it gives you a direct and unfair advantage over other players. None of the supported windower plugins lets you do something you wouldn't be able to do without it. They only give you more convenient ways to access information such as the TP of other party members. To me it is information that the UI should provide without third party software. Unfortunately SE miserably failed in their UI design. It's about as PT unfriendly as it can be, which is kinda sad considering FFXI is a very heavily PT based game.

Another rather incredible design flaw is the lack of cooldown information in the UI. The only way to know when a spell or ability is ready to be cast/used again is to use the /recast command (which wasn't even in the game from the beginning) or by opening the spell/ability list and for obvious reasons you'll want to use macros instead. Just imagine if you would have to open your spell book in WoW in order to see what abilities are ready for use. This problem has also been solved by non-harmful third party software. These people are actually helping SE fix their game closer to today's standards and SE just shoots them down.

Also, as a FFXI the Windower is very much a necessity for me. I would simply find myself bored to tears doing nothing for hours if I couldn't browse the web of whatever while I wait. And waiting is what you do the most in FFXI.

At least, though, this would explain that odd near-d/c experience I had last night. All I can say is scan all you want SE, I have nothing to hide. Windower-free since I started.

they can't detect an unmodified instance of the windower program anyway.

someone walking thru a wall or popping across a zone seems like it may set off an alarm or two.

Zamphire - I am not necessarily against Windower, and I think it sucks that without
using it, people can't do other stuff on their computer. Like I said in an earlier post, I
don't understand much about it because I play on PS2. That is why I asked earlier if it
makes hacking easier, and I would be against its use if it makes it easier for people to
cheat/hack. I was not trying to attack you earlier, but honestly, it is hard for me to
be sympathetic with you not being able to use Windower and look up stuff when you
were banned for cheating/hacking while using Windower.

Regarding the prices of computers, I lucked out and got an old laptop from a friend
for free that they weren't using. Before that, I had to stop playing, walk in another
room and look stuff up, or print out what I needed before hand.

edit: I also wanted to add this: Is there confirmed banning/suspensions for using just
Windower?

I forgot to mention, I would also like to see recast timers of everything that I've used that was cast. Zerocast is a godly tool that a programmer developed to tell you what your recast timer is. If they banned that I'd be a sad sad pandataru.

Also, is Wait0 banned as well or just speed, warping hacks?
Also, does this banning affect people that use the windows clock to modify their speed?

It doesn't hurt anyone directly, but it gives you a direct and unfair advantage over other players. None of the supported windower plugins lets you do something you wouldn't be able to do without it. They only give you more convenient ways to access information such as the TP of other party members. To me it is information that the UI should provide without third party software. Unfortunately SE miserably failed in their UI design. It's about as PT unfriendly as it can be, which is kinda sad considering FFXI is a very heavily PT based game.

Another rather incredible design flaw is the lack of cooldown information in the UI. The only way to know when a spell or ability is ready to be cast/used again is to use the /recast command (which wasn't even in the game from the beginning) or by opening the spell/ability list and for obvious reasons you'll want to use macros instead. Just imagine if you would have to open your spell book in WoW in order to see what abilities are ready for use. This problem has also been solved by non-harmful third party software. These people are actually helping SE fix their game closer to today's standards and SE just shoots them down.

I admit, windower is a great program. After today, I wont be uding anything but the windower. SE Failed BIG time with transfering it over to the PC, so much that I even use a ps2 controlled on my PC because the UI sucks so badly.

Also, does this banning affect people that use the windows clock to modify their speed?

People who do that have been randomly banned off and on once they've been reported.

Zamphire - I am not necessarily against Windower, and I think it sucks that without
using it, people can't do other stuff on their computer. Like I said in an earlier post, I
don't understand much about it because I play on PS2. That is why I asked earlier if it
makes hacking easier, and I would be against its use if it makes it easier for people to
cheat/hack. I was not trying to attack you earlier, but honestly, it is hard for me to
be sympathetic with you not being able to use Windower and look up stuff when you
were banned for cheating/hacking while using Windower.

Regarding the prices of computers, I lucked out and got an old laptop from a friend
for free that they weren't using. Before that, I had to stop playing, walk in another
room and look stuff up, or print out what I needed before hand.

Sucked didn't it? I bet if it was possible to go on websites with your PS2 you'd want to be able to veiw websites while playing the game wouldn't you?

I am no argueing at all against the use of hacks and bots, they are wrong, I know. I was banned and I deserved it, I'm argueing for the windower.

Double Post Edited:

Also, is Wait0 banned as well or just speed, warping hacks? 0Wait really doesn't do anything harmful to the game, it just cuts out the wait time between looking at yor delivery box, looking at sold items on AH, and cuts down wait time between synth. But yes, technically it's banned because it's a 3rd party program, but I think it's harder to detect.

Also, does this banning affect people that use the windows clock to modify their speed? I would assume so, as this is cheating as well.

yeah... I forgot that in my original post.

is it that much of a criminal action to want to take screenshots of cutscenes?

I can't understand why that was never implemented.

There is a ingame function to capture screenshots?

There is a ingame function to capture screenshots?
You can't do this as of right now with an unmodified game. If you use the windower you can.

Well the game was designed from the ground up to run on the PS2, and that includes memory limitations and even controls. Honestly, I love the way FFXI controls as opposed to other MMOs.

Moving on:

Actually the windower plugins do indeed alow you to cheat. It's true when Cliff originally made the windower he said that he would keep it from doing things like sending movement and stuff that would alow you to automate stuff with the windower. He never allowed that. BUT, there's a file called WindowerHelper.dll that he didn't write, that will alow you to write plugins that will do ANYTHING through the windower, there is also a plugin called Lunar that alows you to write script in the Luna language and run it through a windower plug in.

Zamphire has established he's well versed in the third-party world of MMOs, so I'm gonna take his word for it. This goes hand-in-hand with:

Windower by itself is not a malicious tool by any means, however as others have shown, it can open the door so to speak to the use of some really nasty stuff.

Oh and responding to:

How about when you're skilling up synthing.
You gain a level in your craft.
Or the element day changes.
Or the moon phase changes.
Or you need to check to see which synthesis image support you need.
Time is critical, as the most beneficial time to synth is slipping away.

Duh, write it down or print it out. I personally know which direction to face based on my crystal, which moon phase affects my synth and what day affects my synth. It's not hard to plug in a few mental numbers and do it. Those online calculators are for people that failed 9th grade Trigonometry.

And come on, who DOESN'T get the synth support you need to pay like 120 gil for? That's a no-brainer....

So SE, is more or less telling me I can't talk to my friends and I can't watch movies. What part of you agreed to that do you not understand? You agree to have FFXI run fullscreen every time you launch the game, SE neither told you you can not use your computer nor are they forcing you to play.

You have to love it when SE bans people over things like this. Cheaters come out of the woodwork to validate their actions with some sort of twisted moral argument.

There is a ingame function to capture screenshots?Yes. It just sucks.

Yes. It just sucks.

And the resolution is crappy too.

Sucked didn't it? I bet if it was possible to go on websites with your PS2 you'd want to be able to veiw websites while playing the game wouldn't you?

I am no argueing at all against the use of hacks and bots, they are wrong, I know. I was banned and I deserved it, I'm argueing for the windower.

Having to walk into another room did suck, but it was what I had to do. I don't know
if I would want to be able to look at the web on my PS2 or not, if I thought it would
get me banned, no I wouldn't do it. I would do what I am doing now.

Anyways, is there any confirmed people being banned/suspended for just using Windower?

edit: added quote because I post to slow...

What part of you agreed to that do you not understand? You agree to have FFXI run fullscreen every time you launch the game, SE neither told you you can not use your computer nor are they forcing you to play.

You have to love it when SE bans people over things like this. Cheaters come out of the woodwork to validate their actions with some sort of twisted moral argument.

I cheated, yes I did.

And they didn't ban me for using the windower thank you very much, if they did that there would be many more than just 2k bans.

I agreed to useing it, yes I did. Am I happy about it? No I'm not. Do I have a right to state my opinion on why it should be changed? Yes, I do.


Edit: P.S. This argument is raising my gil really high!! Woot! Maybe soon I can go buy that bronze sword I've been wanting.

0Wait really doesn't do anything harmful to the game, it just cuts out the wait time between looking at yor delivery box, looking at sold items on AH, and cuts down wait time between synth. But yes, technically it's banned because it's a 3rd party program, but I think it's harder to detect.
I would assume so, as this is cheating as well.

You can also use 0Wait to look at your delivery box from anywhere in town as long as your mog house or rent-a-room is in that town. @_@. Saves a trip back to the old mog house to get your gil when you can get it at the auction house.

You can also use 0Wait to look at your delivery box from anywhere in town as long as your mog house or rent-a-room is in that town. @_@. Saves a trip back to the old mog house to get your gil when you can get it at the auction house.

Oh wow, nice, I may have to go download the new version of this. Saving that trip would be awsome.

Oh wow, nice, I may have to go download the new version of this. Saving that trip would be awsome.

... I thought you said you would stop using hacks? or just stop using flee-tool & warp hacks? :rofl:

... I thought you said you would stop using hacks? or just stop using flee-tool & warp hacks? :rofl:

I said may. But if I do get it, it'll be a LONG time down the road. I'm not going to be using anything but windower for a long time.

Well, if people would stop using Windower to cheat, then SE might implement it. :rolleyes:

I will also win the $500 million Powerball lottery, a rich, unknown uncle will leave me his entire Caribbean island estate, and NASA will invite me to fly to the moon the day people don't use Windower to cheat.

The windower itself isn't such a bad thing, and I don't think SE would've given it more importance than they do to Fraps now.

But when people started saying:

"oh it would be nice being able to see the TP from other people without having to ask"
"oh it would be nice having 500 lines in a macro instead of 6"
"oh it would be nice to have <insert something that wasn't intended to be in the game>"

and started creating all those little programs that's when they sent the windower to hell.

Had people just used the windower for the sole purpose of "window"-ing SE would've never had to take measures against it.


But people always wants more, and there's your reward. Now everyone who uses a windower is considered a cheater and most of them are now anyway.




PS> Nope, there's no chance in hell I'll ever use a windower but I don't consider the windower itself a bad thing.

In fact it would've been nice being able to watch a movie or do other stuff on my computer while looking for party but with all these I think seeing an official windowed mode seems more and more unlikely.

Well, if people would stop using Windower to cheat, then SE might implement it. :rolleyes:
If SE would allow me to type in Japanese, without having to install my Japanese client, then I would stop using it.

All I use it for is being able to alt+tab out to talk on AIM and look at web pages while I wait for a party. As well as the capability to speak in Japanese, as I just don't like playing on the Japanese client.

Well, if people would stop using Windower to cheat, then SE might implement it. :rolleyes:

I will also win the $500 million Powerball lottery, a rich, unknown uncle will leave me his entire Caribbean island estate, and NASA will invite me to fly to the moon the day people don't use Windower to cheat.

Magic 8 ball says, "Yes!"

I didn't think Fleetool or POS was so widely used.

/shocked

Well, if people would stop using Windower to cheat, then SE might implement it. :rolleyes:

I will also win the $500 million Powerball lottery, a rich, unknown uncle will leave me his entire Caribbean island estate, and NASA will invite me to fly to the moon the day people don't use Windower to cheat.

The day SE gives me an officle supported windowed version of FF is the day I stop using the windower.

Alright, all i've been using is windowers, that's it. Do they really have a way of finding out if you have it or not? Also have there actually been people being banned for only using just that?

I didn't think Fleetool or POS was so widely used.

/shocked

I'm not going to give links because I don't want to get in trouble, but you'd be surprised how many people use these tools. They are VERY easy to use and easily obtainable for free. I know of off the top of my head at least 5 websites with 500 or more people registered at them. All with easy access to both those tools and many many more.

Oh and responding to:

Duh, write it down or print it out. I personally know which direction to face based on my crystal, which moon phase affects my synth and what day affects my synth. It's not hard to plug in a few mental numbers and do it. Those online calculators are for people that failed 9th grade Trigonometry.

And come on, who DOESN'T get the synth support you need to pay like 120 gil for? That's a no-brainer....

Obviously you missed the entire point. At any point in synthing any one or all of those factors CAN change. Any one can alter your skillup session. Anyone could royally f**k you.

I don't make gil to burn away on synthing. I use the crafting timer to maximize efficiency while skillingup in the limited time I play. Now if I were to buy gil, sure I'd say f**k it all, I'll just powerlevel through the craft. Not me buddy. I earn my gil. I'm making sure I synth efficiently so that I don't lose that 300-500k dicking around on Goldsmithing.

Sure I COULD write it all down. I COULD write every possible instance that MAY occur during my synthing session. Wave goodbye to the nice Synth Session. I work. I have a relationship. I have friends. I have family. The little time I have to play this game, I do things effectively.

And yes. I could do the math. Which is MORE time consuming than using the timer.

Alright, all i've been using is windowers, that's it. Do they really have a way of finding out if you have it or not? Also have there actually been people being banned for only using just that?

I can't say for sure, but I think you're ok. I havn't heard of anyone using just the windower and nothing else getting banned.

I'm not going to give links because I don't want to get in trouble, but you'd be surprised how many people use these tools. They are VERY easy to use and easily obtainable for free. I know of off the top of my head at least 5 websites with 500 or more people registered at them. All with easy access to both those tools and many many more.

Yea, and I bet those that are using it around afraid to share it with their friends.

Oh well, 2000 down, ??? more to go. I suppose I'll have to look out for more than just RMT now.


Edit:

Start up the Windower and call a GM, then tell me if they can see it or not. :thumbsup:

Alright, all i've been using is windowers, that's it. Do they really have a way of finding out if you have it or not? Also have there actually been people being banned for only using just that?

SE said:

...a number of accounts which were confirmed to have violated the user agreement by using unauthorized third-party software tools within FINAL FANTASY XI to enable abnormal in-game movement were discovered and have been permanently suspended.

So it seems it was only about movement hacks and not the windower itself, however both things are usually related so who knows. :P

id hate to be band for useing my windower, i was always booted from stupid comp things, so i just use my windower and put it to fullscreen size and when somethings pops up i just exit it without getting booted off ffxi...
*wishes with all his mite that he dosnt get banned* :cry:

If SE would allow me to type in Japanese, without having to install my Japanese client, then I would stop using it.

All I use it for is being able to alt+tab out to talk on AIM and look at web pages while I wait for a party. As well as the capability to speak in Japanese, as I just don't like playing on the Japanese client.

See... I don't think anybody really has an issue with that. It's when people use Windower to tack on warp hacks, speed hacks, etc. that the issue arises. I would love to use an official Windower myself just to log on and off of Ventrillo (pain in the rear logging off the game just to open and close the program), but it just stands that far to many people use the program to cheat. I'm not talking seeing TP and stuff, I mean the hardcore, game-breaking cheats that makes our gaming experience miserable and unfair.

you can check to see if you are banned by trying to log into the LS community site:
http://fanzone.playonline.com/lscom/index.do

(thanks to someone on theorderls for that tip)

I'm on hold with POL now I'll let you know what I find out.

Obviously you missed the entire point. At any point in synthing any one or all of those factors CAN change. Any one can alter your skillup session. Anyone could royally f**k you.

I don't make gil to burn away on synthing. I use the crafting timer to maximize efficiency while skillingup in the limited time I play. Now if I were to buy gil, sure I'd say f**k it all, I'll just powerlevel through the craft. Not me buddy. I earn my gil. I'm making sure I synth efficiently so that I don't lose that 300-500k dicking around on Goldsmithing.

Sure I COULD write it all down. I COULD write every possible instance that MAY occur during my synthing session. Wave goodbye to the nice Synth Session. I work. I have a relationship. I have friends. I have family. The little time I have to play this game, I do things effectively.

And yes. I could do the math. Which is MORE time consuming than using the timer.

Losing Gil is part of crafting. I lose hard earned gil all the time skilling up on smithing. If you can accept that risk then stop crafting. The fact that you don't want to lose gil doesn't entitle you to break the TOS and us a windower. Those of us who follow the TOS and don't use windowers to access crafting timers would appreciate it anyway.

you can check to see if you are banned by trying to log into the LS community site:
http://fanzone.playonline.com/lscom/index.do

(thanks to someone on theorderls for that tip)

You can also try logging in here https://secure.playonline.com/polplusus/friendlist/login.html

I think it's ridiculous that XI is Full Screen only. For the record I'm on PS2, but most everyone I know is a PC gamer. And most of them have Windower. It's asinine to think that running it only in full screen will prevent cheating. When you've got people as 'creative' as our lovely RMT friends, that's nothing more than a mudpuddle in their path.

It has been some time since I quit Galaxies, but I believe I was fully capable of minimizing the screen had I any reason to. This did not make it any easier to cheat or write cheats on anyone's part. Actually, the way the economy, crafting, etc was set up, there wasn't alot of *reason* to cheat. There may have been speed hackers or the like, but you know, I never heard about them. So far as I saw, I never saw an "NM" or anything of the like. Most everything high grade was crafted by other PC's. (Until the gimped 'upgrade' when almost everyone left.) Truth be told, I think XI would be better off with an economy/craft system of that nature, but it's far too late for that. That alone made the need for hacking much less.

No, I don't think it's fair that they locked it to full screen for the PC users, and I'm not even one of them. They wanna know something, they have to log out. If they happen to have a ad-ware problem that send them random pop ups (I knew someone with this until he finally got it all rooted out of there.) they d/c randomly because heaven forbid something else be on the screen with XI. Hackers are Hackers. And they'd do it even with it locked to full screen. I don't know jack about programming but I'm sure that there'd be plenty of methods around that.

Perhaps if they had installed one from the start instead of being so naive to think that one mere bit of programming would prevent RMT, we'd not be having this problem. Windower may or may not make it easier on them, but the lack thereof would not hamper them, either.

I'm fully against *all* forms of cheating and botting, etc, but I fail to see the harm in someone being able to minimize their game if they're needing a quick check on something else. Perhaps SE should install that in the upgrade. Because most people who use Windower use it only for that feature and have no intention or design on cheating or 'besting' their fellow player. They, being intimate with the programming, could probably easily implement a windowed mode, while finding ways to disable the use of plug-ins. It would just take more time on their part than they're apparently willing to spend.

But then again, doing something like that would make sense. And for anything to make sense in today's way of business would just be anti-thesis to the whole affair.

Amen sista!

I started using windower a few weeks ago. I had read alot of threads about people using it, and then one day I decided to do all the Windy money scroll quests. I was getting prepped to do it when there was a problem with my printer (which I still haven't fixed yet). I was like, "Ah, what the hell, why not." and downloaded it.

It is really cool. It's nice to look up info and also cool to be able to stream episodes of mystery science theatre 3000 while partying. It did make certain situations too laggy (like melee burning, or dynamis with more than like 20 people), but besides that, it was good.

I think I escaped being suspended, either by luck or the fact that I haven't been playing too much and only using the windower for a couple weeks.

I'm not going to use it anymore, though, and I never would've used it for hacking (even though 50 line macros would be nice for rdm, I'm just not interested in that. I consider it unfair.)

SE shouldn't be able to see our Windows Running Processes, i don't see how this is possible if windower isn't detectable any other way.

If i were SE i'd do chatlog searches for the word "Windower" and go from there... which would probably pull up a number around 2k of those who talk about using it themselves... i'm sure more than 2k use it and don't talk about it.

Losing Gil is part of crafting. I lose hard earned gil all the time skilling up on smithing. If you can accept that risk then stop crafting. The fact that you don't want to lose gil doesn't entitle you to break the TOS and us a windower. Those of us who follow the TOS and don't use windowers to access crafting timers would appreciate it anyway.

Those who follow the TOS... which is who?

PC users have backgrounds applications running all the time. Etc. Antivirus, a open web browser they forgot to close before logging on the game, messenger services.

Console players need only change the channel.
Not a single player doesn't go agains the TOS, it's just the manner in which it is violated.

I accept gil loss from crafting. But I'll minimize it as I can.

Someone posted this on Alla. Just sharing the info, not sure if it's true or not.



The program they're detecting isn't windower. It's another program (not going to say the name) that you can purchase for $19.95 from the programer (or steal from a community that is releasing cracks for it). This program uses Windower to function. The things this program can do include: POS Hacking, PL Bot, Fish Bot, Choco-Dig bot, WHM Tele-Vendor bot, Guild Camp bot, AH camp bot, Monster Radar, Advanced monster/NM claim bot, Flee Hack that you can control to increase movement from 1%-100% on Foot and Chocobo that also allows you to automatically turn it off the second another player is detected to be anywhere in your general vicinity off-screen, Time of Death bot, Tell detection, magic skill up bot, recast counter, utsusemi counter, "On Event" bot, JPN 2 ENG translator using google's translator, Script Editor to make your own scripts/bots, and True Sight which allows you to see all invisible characters as if they were in your own party.

Here is a quote of the upcoming changes this program will have when the new patch is released:



Quote:
-New Coordinate and Teleporting system, no longer getting stuck on walls and mountains, allows you to teleport inside of any wall or even under the map. Combined this with the teleporting in claiming, map editor, POS, and everything in app using teleporting.

-Speed Hack which will make everything client side of your FFXI run at extreme speeds, this is also useful for skipping the boat rides in the new areas.

-Tweaked all the Claim bot code and alot of the other code to perform and detect pop a lot better. Also added a new Log that shows exact time the macros/commands where sent.

-New Monster Radar which will detect your ranged weapon and depending what you are using, Ex: A Gun, a Bow, a Crossbow. will show you rings of size of you specify, Ex: Optimim distance and Max Range. Also works for bard song distances.

-Along with the monster Radar, an option to filter out monsters depending on name.

-Also shows Aggro range for monsters. the database is not complete and will depending on you guys to fill it up. Same with all the weapons

-Almost all of the input code has been changed to allow multiple window botting for: Claim bot, PL Bot, OnEvent, Magic Skillup, Tell detect. Unfortunatly i could not do this with Fishing at the moment.

-New Skin. Last one was kinda ugly.

-The Linkshell -> Website integration thing
Iv posted screenshots on this, used for including live chat on websites directly with your linkshell. An Example PHP script will be included to show how to use this.
The code for this is not fully completed however. I might make it a seperate application from *****. FFXI **** members will have free access to it but others can purchase the seperate app for a cheaper price.


Fishing updates:
-Fixed bug in the fatigue detection.
-Added detections for Full inventory, No Bait, No Rod
-Removed the Tolerance System and introducing a new Fish ID system.
The database is not complete but it is very simple to save new fish to the database. I will make a new forum for people to post new Fish ID's.

-Lots of bug fixes

-True Sight Checkbox which will allow you to see players who are invisible. There is currently a bug with this that will allow you to walk through walls in most zones. Not a biggy.

-This new version will lock your character to the first Server you attempt to log on. I had to ban about 10 users who were making multiple accounts on other servers with the same name. The old version will be disabled when i release the new version.





Please stop worrying about Windower. SE is going after uses of people they're detecting of flee hacking and POS hacking.

SE can't see our running processes without a progem specificly designed to do that. But its not a hard task for a process (in this case POL or FFXI) to see if -it- has been tampered with.

Sounds like ffxiapp to me. <snip> which isn't the only program being detected I promise.

again, it's not actually windower SE targeted this time around. It was abnormal movement, which means you've either speedhacked or POS'd across a zone at some point in your FFXI career (reports seem to indicate that they're catching some past activity too).

Edit:

Start up the Windower and call a GM, then tell me if they can see it or not. :thumbsup:
A GM asked me once, "Why are you able to type Japanese on the North American client?" My responce: "I also own the Japanese version of the game; I imported FFXI 4 months before the NA version was released."

I was using windower at the time. So, he was just either playing dumb, or they really can't tell if you're using windower.

again, it's not actually windower SE targeted this time around. It was abnormal movement, which means you've either speedhacked or POS'd across a zone at some point in your FFXI career (reports seem to indicate that they're catching some past activity too).

I can imagine this would be easy to detect automatically for them too. All they'd have to do is timestamp your POS at every given time and see that you are somewhere you shouldn't be yet, under normal speed conditions.

Hacks are bad, mmk?

Woah Hamlet. Wtf is all that jazz? I thought I was bad. It's terrible that I was using windower for access to my computer and with the bans I don't feel like I can justify using it anymore, but that, Hamlet, goes way beyond anything I'm feeling.

For those saying that banning windower users is the best way to stop hacking. Thats like nuking Iran and Iraq back into the stone age to stop terrorism....

It's times like these that I love playing on a 360 and having my PC right here. I can do whatever I want while I am looking for party.

What happens when your account is suspended? Will it tell you or you just get errors logging in, because im getting a version update error (POL-1160). Am i suspended or FFXI just being crappy again >.>. (I only use the windower, no speed hacks or whatever).

What happens when your account is suspended? Will it tell you or you just get errors logging in, because im getting a version update error (POL-1160). Am i suspended or FFXI just being crappy again >.>. (I only use the windower, no speed hacks or whatever).

It will tell you you have been suspended

For those saying that banning windower users is the best way to stop hacking. Thats like nuking Iran and Iraq back into the stone age to stop terrorism....

And currently Syria, and Lebannon.

:thumbsup:

What happens when your account is suspended? Will it tell you or you just get errors logging in, because im getting a version update error (POL-1160). Am i suspended or FFXI just being crappy again >.>. (I only use the windower, no speed hacks or whatever).

From personal experience, it wouldn't let me log into POL in the first place, there was an initial message saying my account was locked, i had to call SE to get info on why... and even then they didn't want to tell me, i didn't end up talking to a GM till the term was over 5 days later, in Prison.

I haven't broken those specific rules since, i still use windower however because i'm certain i won't get caught under current ToS

What happens when your account is suspended? Will it tell you or you just get errors logging in, because im getting a version update error (POL-1160). Am i suspended or FFXI just being crappy again >.>. (I only use the windower, no speed hacks or whatever).EVERYONE STOP PANICING!

POL errors are because there are connection problems with POL right now! Please read the front page news post. (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/news.ffxi/59159-playonline.login.difficulties.html)

If you are banned, it'll say you were banned.

It will tell you you have been suspended

ok thank you, now im semi glad its just FFXI being screwy as usual >.>.

Windowers are indeed against the ToS, but it only shows that the ToS is a failure. What if walking forward was suddenly made illegal and you had to walk backwards? I'm sure you'd agree that the law should not have to be followed. That kind of law would exist only for the purpose of being there.


I think it's a little irresponsible to compare using Windowers to walking backwards, as well as calling the ToS a failure. ToS have to use generalizations and far-reaching restrictions not because something like a Windower actually affects the game, but (as someone pointed out) it can be used as a tool to run other hacks or cheat tools, or as a plugin for cheat tools, as someone described.

Furthermore, it's not up to you, or I, or any other player in the community to judge/justify/validate/denouce the ToS. The fact of the matter is, YOU didn't write the game, YOUR servers aren't at risk if someone does manage to get cheats or hacks to work. If I was hosting a game as popular as this, I would likely be even stricter than SE is with my security, b/c I guarantee you that the hardware investments alone are utterly mind-boggling. You have to remember, SE is a business, and they don't make any money on their games if noone can play/enjoy them b/c they are hacked all the time. Their stance on the windower is simply a sound investment on the future of this game, being their income source AND your entertainment source. Any security benefits realized by SE are ultimately benefits to the community.

when presenting a point against the windower and why its so bad, bringing out the "against ToS" card doesnt help the argument. i think the issue w/ most people is "why is it wrong to use the computer in the manner it was meant to be(called Windows for a reason)?" we all know its against the ToS to use it, but in all honesty it doesnt give any advantage. using certain plugins w/ the windower can give an advantage, but the windower itself is harmless. as with any game, its not hard to cheat, windowed or not. in all honesty i think if you dont talk about it then SE doesnt really care, but if you go around telling everyone basically that youre violating the ToS then of course they would have something to say. cheating on the other hand requires action to be taken. i applaud SE for banning the cheaters. even if they arent perfect(i see a lot of SE bashing around here) at least theyre doing -something- useful to everyone. im actually surprised to see more complaining here than anything. one would think w/ cheaters getting banned people would be happy.

Ok, to the above, Windower is basically undectable, unless SE is running a Warden like program without *ANYONE* noticing, OR them telling us, which would mean that A: SE made an extremely good program, and B: They're most likely breaking the law somewhere along the line.

The program they're detecting isn't windower. It's another program (not going to say the name) that you can purchase for $19.95 from the programer (or steal from a community that is releasing cracks for it).Is correct, it is the most common hack today, although most people steal it, what you know as "MrArgus" or "PosHack" most likely isn't.


Start up the Windower and call a GM, then tell me if they can see it or not. I've talked to at least five GMs while using windower, and none of them made a comment about it. I even asked one of them what the rules are regarding using the IME plugin, and they did nothing but tell me it wasn't allowed.

Cheaters come out of the woodwork to validate their actions with some sort of twisted moral argument.I'd love to hear your argument how using a harmless program that allows you to use your PCas it should be able to be used, and as other programs allow it to be used, is cheating.

I can't watch other stuff on the tv, or listen to music on my tv. yes you can. Change the channel. Switch back to video one. It's extremely easy to make a setup that allows you to watch TV while logged in, or even have PiP.

Also, does this banning affect people that use the windows clock to modify their speed?I'm sure it does. SE can only tell what messy business you're doing, not how you're doing it, as shown above. If you're moving around super fast, you might as well be speed hacking, even though it's a result of SE's own crummy programming.

It's because windower opens up the door to make bots/hacks easier.
------------------------------------------------
just wanted to ask a question to the PC users. So, does windower in fact make it
easier to cheat with hacks, and if so, would not allowing people to use windower
help cut down on the number of people using hacks?
------------------------------------------------
Many third-party programs like MrArgus, ToS and Fleetool are very hard/impossible to use when playing on Full Screen mode.

No, windower, by itself, does *NOT* make hacking easier. Actually, it made it harder for a time, because having windower on would mess up the hacks. Now, yes, hacking programs are made with a GUI which is mostly usable when in window mode, but originally they operated (and infact, they still do to some extent) with keyboard shortcuts and text log commands.

If ANY software developer thinks they can seriously stop hacks by making something DOMINATE fullscreen mode, I doubt they have the competence to make pong.


So just to make it clear, Windower does not make hacking easier, and never has.

On hold now 50min.. they must be swarmed.

Please dont quote a ToS agreement S.E has failed to uphold since day 1. crap like my friend being threatened in shout to have bodily harm done to them. only for S.E to sit by an do jack. OR what about the section that states monopolizing mobs was a vilolation. an i sit here right now. after scanning sky to see the same peeps in Ulli camp. comeone if you wanna inforce 1 part, then inforce it all. yeah i agree to not use 3rd party hacks. an i agree to have my gameplay not screwed over by asshats. an yet it does.

Secondly S.E has No legal right to scan my computer for any known programs. thus how can they tell if you run windows mode or not. if you say nothing an admit to nothing. they have no way of noticing unless they themselves do it illegally. an thats against my rights as a consumer. especially if i nefver aggreed to it. which i have not.

Well cant login now, S.E must have pissed someone off.

I love you, Feba.

I just don't understand why SE can't get with the times and decide to implement an official windowed structure for the game on PC. They should know by now how many thousands of people use it, and after playing that way, I'm sure many will agree that it would be almost impossible to switch back after 'tasting the forbidden fruit'. Man, that's hot. Personally, I can't even get windower to work because of my strange PC set-up, but I don't need to because I rarely play on PC anyway when my 360 is right beside me. My girlfriend, on the other hand, is a huge, HUGE multitasker. She needs to be able to talk to her friends and play at the same time. So, between using windower and not being able to have her get on at all, she would much rather use the vile program to open and close the program at will than not get on at all. It's natural. I just wish that SE could understand the notion too.

Can you explain to me how exactly warp hacks hurt you? An NM claim hack would, they incorpate warping sometimes, but just mearly warping from the zone line of West Ron to La Thein doesn't hurt anyone.

It's not that it hurts anyone, but it gives an unfair advantage by affecting the normal course of game-play. You don't affect other players by doing it, but you have something that we don't, and that makes it an unfair advantage. Why should the rest of us have to be stuck walking everywhere we go, obeing the ToS, while someone with a warp hack can zoom through various maps to get where he's going? It gives you an advantage b/c you can save time doing it, and maybe I understand this better than some folks, but time is a pretty precious commodity in any MMORPG. Thus, any 3rd party utility/software you use to "save time" may could pretty easily be equated to adding gil to your pocket.

If I didn't have to walk all the way from Bastok to Valkurm Dunes (taking around 20 mins each way) I would farm the hell out of the items there. And so would everyone else, and then the floor would fall out of the economy. Everything that happens in an MMORPG has an effect on something else (or more likely affects many other things). By warping wherever you want to go, you can farm faster, find parties faster, level faster. And for that matter you could probably escape from a mob who's about to kill you.

To me, this is cheating. Also, though it's unfair for other PC players, it's WAY unfair for console players, who don't even have the option of cheating in any way.

On hold now 50min.. they must be swarmed.
The current POL issues aren't helping either.

Another comparision, slightly better, would be like a town banning cars. The streets are wide enough, and the cars are widely accepted in most other towns, but this town decided everyone would have to travel by foot, or at best bike, because some people were using cars to do drive-by.


Of course, people can still shoot without a car, the car just made it more convineant.


Other towns still have a problem with shootings, but they realize cars aren't doing any evil by themselves.

Another comparision, slightly better, would be like a town banning cars. The streets are wide enough, and the cars are widely accepted in most other towns, but this town decided everyone would have to travel by foot, or at best bike, because some people were using cars to do drive-by.


Of course, people can still shoot without a car, the car just made it more convineant.


Other towns still have a problem with shootings, but they realize cars aren't doing any evil by themselves.
I like the cut of your jib.

I like the cut of your jib.

What are you doing looking at his Jib....

Sorry. It had to be said.

Don't hurt me.

Another comparision, slightly better, would be like a town banning cars. The streets are wide enough, and the cars are widely accepted in most other towns, but this town decided everyone would have to travel by foot, or at best bike, because some people were using cars to do drive-by.


Of course, people can still shoot without a car, the car just made it more convineant.


Other towns still have a problem with shootings, but they realize cars aren't doing any evil by themselves.

Nice one man, only wish i could have thought of this :P

I'm not banned....

Thank God... (but I don't use any malicious third party apps, so I guess I'm in the clear...)

Yeah, so much posted about the windower. Everything posted in support of windower is nothing new, all of it has been debated. Logic in the debate that is excluded is the fairness.

Debate 1: Why can I window if PS2 player can use the PC next to them
Flaw: Not every PS2 player has a PC next to them, only a few do.

Debate 2: Why am I going to buy a PS2 and FFXI when I have a $1,000+ PC that can run FFXI already. It's just that stupid non-windower crap that stops me.
Flaw: Debate 1, PS2 player using the PC next to them has already done what you are resistant to do. Logic failed.

Debate 3: Did SE really think doing full screen only would stop hacks? Well they failed at that, give us the damn window mode!
Flaw: SE did not do it to stop hacks, design was made with the intent of having as little versioning as possible. PS2 doesn't window it's full screen, the logic of it stopping hacks was a player created logic not the developers.

Debate 4: I use my computer for movies, tv shows, instant messenger, etc.. you telling me I can't while playing?
Rebuttle: Debate 1 & Debate 2, People who are using a PS2 depending on setup are likely to not be able to watch TV or a Movie. The PS2 itself doesn't use any outside instant messaging function (Closest it currently has is the "Friend List Plus" you can access from their website). In all essence it is a very equal playfield.

Debate 5: How is Windower unfair?
Rebuttle: The older windower were all it did was window the program was not that unfair. The newer windower when a person can have a minimap, see everyones TP, see recast times consistantly, and all those other plug-ins is giving that person a unfair advantage. This also makes steps that are really bad when in the hands of a elitest player, they will attempt to micro manage the group creating iritation and ill-will among the party members. Outside of that adds another dimension were players can be ostracized, even though their play statedgy may be excellent and is acomplishing the party's needs if it isn't follow what the elitest expects it can get a player outed from the party for very stupid reasons.

Now because a person using PC can simply get a cheap dumb terminal to handle tasks as websurfing or IMs with friends, and PS2 can do that same this is still quite an even play field. The mudding comes in the in-between areas were a PC user could get out of having another system for porting off websurfing and IMs, by housing on the same system.

I personally wouldn't recommend that because making 1 computer do so much is a heavy load for a single system to be handling. Aside from that a second system provides better network options to segment your speed to make sure the game information has priority. It doesn't matter if your PC itself can run FFXI 3-4 times over, the fact of the matter is your connection will not handle it as effeciently with that many being loaded on a single half-duplex connection.

For purety of not only the game performance running on the system running nothing else also assures game latency to be lower which is also another addition to it's performance. Also turning off Virus Scan is only risky if you have other programs accessing the internet such as email. If you have no other program running at the time you are safe to disable Virus Scan. Virus Scan doesn't prevent a person from hacking your system, that is taken care of by NAT routers, firewalls, proxies, and other additional connection restrictions you place in the router.

As long as you are not starting up any other programs, have any others running, or have used untrustworthy 3rd party programs after temporarily disabling the Virus Scan there should be no risk of starting up FFXI alone. Just make habit to enable the Virus Scan after or to shutdown the system (Shutdown is a good one in that any other programs you may of stopped will startup on their own when you start the system as well as Virus Scan being enabled again).

For my standing I didn't mind windower before it was enhanced to having all these plug-ins. Before all the plug-ins the windower had no real issue of being illegal to a point of being targeted. Now that it provides plug-ins and has so much potential that should of been left alone it is one worthy of being targeted and stopped.

But.. see.. some people in drive-bys are using top-secret satellite imagery and GPS to detect and track down the victim, attaching nitro to their car, and creating an army of bots that shoot anything resembling the victim...

Like I said.. Windower isn't the problem... it's the hacks that use it to cheat that are the problem. Windower is just the messenger, so we're shooting it.

But.. see.. some people in drive-bys are using top-secret satellite imagery and GPS to detect and track down the victim, attaching nitro to their car, and creating an army of bots that shoot anything resembling the victim...

Like I said.. Windower isn't the problem... it's the hacks that use it to cheat that are the problem. Windower is just the messenger, so we're shooting it.

If in responce to what I posted, still updating it. The windower debate has a LOT discussed that I've already seen, so give me time to compose it all.

As you see a 5th debate was recently placed in.

I seem to recall a trojan virus that affected your computer the moment it went live on a highspeed internet connection. No open browser, no application accessing the internet, simply having your computer on a constant high speed connection made you vulnerable.

So yeah. Turning off Antivirus, could be a problem for people.

Yeah, so much posted about the windower. Everything posted in support of windower is nothing new, all of it has been debated. Logic in the debate that is excluded is the fairness.

Debate 1: Why can I window if PS2 player can use the PC next to them
Flaw: Not every PS2 player has a PC next to them, only a few do.

Debate 2: Why am I going to buy a PS2 and FFXI when I have a $1,000+ PC that can run FFXI already. It's just that stupid non-windower crap that stops me.
Flaw: Debate 1, PS2 player using the PC next to them has already done what you are resistant to do. Logic failed.

Debate 3: Did SE really think doing full screen only would stop hacks? Well they failed at that, give us the damn window mode!
Flaw: SE did not do it to stop hacks, design was made with the intent of having as little versioning as possible. PS2 doesn't window it's full screen, the logic of it stopping hacks was a player created logic not the developers.

Debate 4: I use my computer for movies, tv shows, instant messenger, etc.. you telling me I can't while playing?
Rebuttle: Debate 1 & Debate 2, People who are using a PS2 depending on setup are likely to not be able to watch TV or a Movie. The PS2 itself doesn't use any outside instant messaging function (Closest it currently has is the "Friend List Plus" you can access from their website). In all essence it is a very equal playfield.

Now because a person using PC can simply get a cheap dumb terminal to handle tasks as websurfing or IMs with friends, and PS2 can do that same this is still quite an even play field. The mudding comes in the in-between areas were a PC user could get out of having another system for porting off websurfing and IMs, by housing on the same system.

I personally wouldn't recommend that because making 1 computer do so much is a heavy load for a single system to be handling. Aside from that a second system provides better network options to segment your speed to make sure the game information has priority. It doesn't matter if your PC itself can run FFXI 3-4 times over, the fact of the matter is your connection will not handle it as effeciently with that many being loaded on a single half-duplex connection.

For purety of not only the game performance running on the system running nothing else also assures game latency to be lower which is also another addition to it's performance. Also turning off Virus Scan is only risky if you have other programs accessing the internet such as email. If you have no other program running at the time you are safe to disable Virus Scan. Virus Scan doesn't prevent a person from hacking your system, that is taken care of by NAT routers, firewalls, proxies, and other additional connection restrictions you place in the router.

As long as you are not starting up any other programs, have any others running, or have used untrustworthy 3rd party programs after temporarily disabling the Virus Scan there should be no risk of starting up FFXI alone. Just make habit to enable the Virus Scan after or to shutdown the system (Shutdown is a good one in that any other programs you may of stopped will startup on their own when you start the system as well as Virus Scan being enabled again).


I have to say i completely disagree.... While SE's official line might of been that it's to make the versions the same, i simply don't belive it.

Also note that if they wanted to avoid 'versionality' then the 360 version should be identical to the PS2 version.
I also belive they have access to the their console while playing. Allowing them to change music, IM friends, etc? Why is a 360 player allowed this utility but i'm not?

This is starting to piss me off. All I want to know is whether I'm permabanned or temp banned, if I'm permabanned I need to cancle my account.

afaik, if you're perma banned, your account is automatically cancelled.

btw, if you got the LM-11 code, i think you're perma banned.

I seem to recall a trojan virus that affected your computer the moment it went live on a highspeed internet connection. No open browser, no application accessing the internet, simply having your computer on a constant high speed connection made you vulnerable.

So yeah. Turning off Antivirus, could be a problem for people.

It only works if the file is already on your system, regular full scans at least 1 time a week like you should be doing anyway would catch that. Heck as long as the Virus Scan definition is up to date that type of virus would have to load something to tell it startup the trojan before it ever even went live on a highspeed internet. Virus Scan should catch those as well during the normal startup process.

some people in drive-bys are using top-secret satellite imagery and GPS to detect and track down the victim, attaching nitro to their car, and creating an army of bots that shoot anything resembling the victim...Um, that's not the case at all. Windower DOES NOT make hacking easier by existing, just as cars don't make guns easier.

You're tossing in a third comparison, but it's to something that doesn't exist. The hacking was the guns, not something that wasn't in the original metaphor.
Debate 1: Why can I window if PS2 player can use the PC next to them
Flaw: Not every PS2 player has a PC next to them, only a few do.

Debate 2: Why am I going to buy a PS2 and FFXI when I have a $1,000+ PC that can run FFXI already. It's just that stupid non-windower crap that stops me.
Flaw: Debate 1, PS2 player using the PC next to them has already done what you are resistant to do. Logic failed.

Debate 3: Did SE really think doing full screen only would stop hacks? Well they failed at that, give us the damn window mode!
Flaw: SE did not do it to stop hacks, design was made with the intent of having as little versioning as possible. PS2 doesn't window it's full screen, the logic of it stopping hacks was a player created logic not the developers.

Debate 4: I use my computer for movies, tv shows, instant messenger, etc.. you telling me I can't while playing?
Rebuttle: Debate 1 & Debate 2, People who are using a PS2 depending on setup are likely to not be able to watch TV or a Movie. The PS2 itself doesn't use any outside instant messaging function (Closest it currently has is the "Friend List Plus" you can access from their website). In all essence it is a very equal playfield.All of these are flawed.

In debate 1, Not every PS2 player has their PC next to them, yes, but that is irrelevant. The case in point is using your current system to it's fullest ability, while not breaking the rules of the game. PS2 can't switch programs while it is being used, nor can it browse the web, or do anything else while it is running a game. PCs can do these things while running a game, and they do with most.

Debate 2, PS2 players are not required to buy a PC to get the most out of their hardware, nor is their current hardware restricted by unneeded means, such as not being able to switch the channel on their TV without disconnecting.

Debate 3 is irrelevant, it's already been shown that it is not hard at all to make a simple hook that allows you to ALT+TAB in ffxi without losing full screen mode (and disconnecting), and SE could even just repackage Archbell's windower if they wanted. Not to mention they probably already have a windower for their GMs to use, to help them balance their work. The only reasons remaining for keeping it in full screen mode are stubborness, and keeping people from using the windows clock to speed hack (due to SE's crummy programming)

Debate 4, no, it is NOT equal, because PS2 can't do those by default, as stated in debate 1. If PS2 could play CDs and DVDs with a game in, then yes, it would be silly to not allow FFXI to. However, as it is, PS2 does not have the ability to do that for ANY game, whereas PC not only can, but is used by most other games.

Sorrt macht, but your flaws are flawed.

But.. see.. some people in drive-bys are using top-secret satellite imagery and GPS to detect and track down the victim, attaching nitro to their car, and creating an army of bots that shoot anything resembling the victim...

Like I said.. Windower isn't the problem... it's the hacks that use it to cheat that are the problem. Windower is just the messenger, so we're shooting it.

but if you could eradicate cars alltogether they'd still have GPS, have a jetpack instead of a nitro and still have an army of bots. Eradicateing the car stops nothing.

Infact i'd argue that in this case, the fact people in town are smuggling cars in anyway (just to drive, not to go shoot people) that they are often tempted to sneak in a quarter of weed at the same time (you know the stuff that doesn't adversly affect anyone else). If you made cars legal, they wouldn't even think about contacting a dealer, they'd drive happily and never touch the evil weed.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/Zamphire/suspended.jpg

That's the message I'm getting.

how long on hold now? like 1hr30min? heh... ot: how do i change this shit under my name? noone pwned me...

Debate 5: How is Windower unfair?
Rebuttle: The older windower were all it did was window the program was not that unfair. The newer windower when a person can have a minimap, see everyones TP, see recast times consistantly, and all those other plug-ins is giving that person a unfair advantage. This also makes steps that are really bad when in the hands of a elitest player, they will attempt to micro manage the group creating iritation and ill-will among the party members. Outside of that adds another dimension were players can be ostracized, even though their play statedgy may be excellent and is acomplishing the party's needs if it isn't follow what the elitest expects it can get a player outed from the party for very stupid reasons.

Ok, first of all, if you don't know anything about a subject, do not degrade it. Windower does *not* allow people to see a minimap, nor recast timers (with the exception of a very recent plugin, which only shows 5 or 6 timers out of the entire game)

Secondly, the addition of plugins is not about windower. It is about extra programs which are incorporated into the windower interface. Bringing plugins into a debate on windowers is like bringing silencers into a debate on guns, it's related, but it's not the issue being discussed.

Third, the abuse of a program by people who would be acting like that anyway is not the fault of the windower. It's the fault of the person using it. Just like an employee using a security camera to look down a woman's shirt isn't the fault of the camera, but the fault of the employee.

Ahh... The ever elusive ass. :rofl:

This wins the topic. Expect delivery of one free internet within the next two to three weeks.

I'm installing the PC version of FFXI right now, and was debating on getting the windower or not. I started playing on PC back when the game was first released, but never opted to use the windower when it became available. I've been wanting to use it for awhile now, just to see the different plugins available. That and I'm sick of playing it on the PS2.

If in responce to what I posted, still updating it. The windower debate has a LOT discussed that I've already seen, so give me time to compose it all.

As you see a 5th debate was recently placed in.

Actually, I think I'm on your side of the issue. ^^ This was a response to the car analogy posted above your response.

how long on hold now? like 1hr30min? heh... ot: how do i change this shit under my name? noone pwned me...

Well, after an hour and 43min wait I finally got ahold of someone. What'd they tell me? We cannot talk about suspensions in chat, please call (858)790-7529 which had been busy for the past hour >.> So still havnt gotton anywhere.

that's a temp ban zamphire

To the long list of arguments about why we can't have a windower and our arguments for wone are bunk... Okay...Okay, Well. screw the PS2 debate. Lets shift a little.

XBox 360 players can change music and use X-box live chat and IM and friggin' VOICE CHAT while playing FFXI.

As a PC user, I want these same abilities. More to the point, I want to be able to do this with the software that is -packaged- with windows, just as 360 users can do it as packed with a 360.

That means I want MSN, and I want windows media player, and I want Windows Firewall. I also want net meeting (though I'll accept Ventrilo as a suitable replacement). I also want improved graphics. If 360 users get all the shineys and pretties and updated graphics, I want too.

While we're at it, if they can use HD TV support, hten I want high res support for my PC, too. I want it natively to support texture ressolutions over 1024x1024, and for fucks sake, use the GPU. Doesn't the XB360 have a GPU? Or is that ignored too?

Granted, in reality I could give two shits less about any of these programs save for Ventrilo which I like, but I think it makes the point...

Feba, problem with yours is that everything built and designed is not for the sole intent of you pushing it to it's max all the time. Some programs you run into will not work right if you are running other programs with it, and is serverly recommended against running other programs with it.

My system may have 4GB of RAM but I don't push it all the time, I prefer for the system to last long which moderate use not pushing it will help to guarentee. Otherwise if I wanted to push it then I would up my resolution to 2048x2048 sure my Video Card may only last 1 year though doing that as opposed to 3-10 years if used moderatly.

It isn't about getting the most out of a single system, it's stability and performance not solely performance.

Soonk: That's a custom title, look in the RPG store.

I have to say i completely disagree.... While SE's official line might of been that it's to make the versions the same, i simply don't belive it.

Also note that if they wanted to avoid 'versionality' then the 360 version should be identical to the PS2 version.
I also belive they have access to the their console while playing. Allowing them to change music, IM friends, etc? Why is a 360 player allowed this utility but i'm not?

FYI, 360 is the same code as the PS2. They only altered a setting, something you can do just as easily on the PC there is literally no difference otherwise in the program. 360 is not a separate version from the PC and PS2.

Macht: Yes, but it's not like it takes a lot to run ffxi in window mode, as is extremely obvious to anyone who uses a windower.

It's not like it's pushing your system, I can run winamp, firefox, bitcomet, and ffxi all at the same time with no problem, heck, most of the time firefox is using more power than XI. It's not demanding on the system, and even if it were on some, that's no good reason to keep it off-limits from everyone else. That's like keeping shadows and weather out of the game because it makes most people laggy.

Also, the PS2 argument definitley doesn't hold up if the above aobut the 360 is accurate.

Otherwise if I wanted to push it then I would up my resolution to 2048x2048 sure my Video Card may only last 1 year though doing that as opposed to 3-10 years if used moderatly.

10 years from now that's goingto be one shitty video card. Hell, video cards go out of date in 6 month.

>.> alright... who killed my rating <.< I think i was at like... 5 or someting? What can you expect? Be a man and admit when you're wrong and people bash you for it.

Ok, first of all, if you don't know anything about a subject, do not degrade it. Windower does *not* allow people to see a minimap, nor recast timers (with the exception of a very recent plugin, which only shows 5 or 6 timers out of the entire game)

Secondly, the addition of plugins is not about windower. It is about extra programs which are incorporated into the windower interface. Bringing plugins into a debate on windowers is like bringing silencers into a debate on guns, it's related, but it's not the issue being discussed.

Third, the abuse of a program by people who would be acting like that anyway is not the fault of the windower. It's the fault of the person using it. Just like an employee using a security camera to look down a woman's shirt isn't the fault of the camera, but the fault of the employee.

Yeah, and the snake only said 1 apple wouldn't hurt anyone when he tempted Adam & Eve to take a bite. Regardless of it only being a mear extension to the windower it was an intented deliberate attempt to provide more function then just a windower.

You know.. the funny thing...

I bet more than 90% of those ban