Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU? [Archive] - Final Fantasy XI :: Dreams in Vana'diel

Kutch

07-18-2006, 09:42 PM

There was alot of promises made from SE about balancing jobs and providing new spells and abilities with the release of Aht Urgan.

Well, we're a few months in now. The paladin has gotten his refresh, and WHM's benediction now remove ONE ailment from all in the PT, but where are all the other mentioned improvements to the jobs? Where is the monk's ability to share HP with the rest of the PT? The WHM ability to share MP? The new spells for RDM?

Was all this just hype to sell more copies of LToAU? I don't even see a mention of this anymore from SE.

ValisOfValefor

07-18-2006, 09:59 PM

As was said at the fan festival, All will come soon enough over the schedueled time.

This was not -hype.

The abilities, and adjustments are going o be put in over time, so be patient.

Remember good rewards come to those who are patient

Mhurron

07-18-2006, 10:12 PM

What is LToAU?

McBride

07-18-2006, 10:29 PM

What is LToAU?

Probably ToAU, Treasures of Aht Urhgan, with an "L" put in front of it for whatever reason.

I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen for thief. Every time I check the stupid POL site, it's in the hope that I'll see something thief-related. Please, Square, please allow me to bask in the glory of information once more?

I am way too sleepy right now.

Feba

07-18-2006, 10:52 PM

The WHM ability to share MP? SE never talked about an ability for WHM to share MP, i'm 95% certain.

And SE never puts out the entire expansion up front, they release everything slowly, so problems are easier to fix. Like CoP, originally you could have one person leave PT and get drawn in by Diabolos, then rejoin and the rest of the PT kills from up top, they fixed that. Also, rolling out expansions slowly gives them more time to work on content, and keeps players interested longer, not to mention makes it fairer on players who don't have a ton of time.

Yeargdribble

07-18-2006, 11:07 PM

I also remember the WHM sharing MP thing being mentioned. I'm too lazy to dig it up but there was a big announcement about the things they were planning to do for all of the jobs and one of them was for WHM to be able to give their MP to people.

Also, I believe the timeline has most of these adjustments slated for this update. However, even if they are in this update I have the feeling SE might just not mention it until the day of the update and put them in the patch notes. The probably don't wanna give anyone prep time to do anything like sell a piece of gear.

I personally have horded up 10 unspent merits in hopes that they will add some new, meritable spells or abilities for BRD. If they don't I'll just go spend them in the other ways I had planned.

Murphie

07-18-2006, 11:10 PM

Feba, they did mention that they were thinking about a WHM ability that would allow them to share their HP with the party. But it was just one of those random ideas that they tossed out.

I worry about folks who took that list of possible changes as exactly what SE is going to do. There are bound to be some disappointed folks in that case.

Feba

07-18-2006, 11:13 PM

eh, still, SE did say they were only THINKING about these things at fan fest. They never said they would actually happen.

Matera

07-18-2006, 11:16 PM

Yep, there was talking about Whms getting a sharing ability.

As for updates, don't take things seriously until they happen. See: Chocobo Raising Deadline.

MisterCookie

07-18-2006, 11:46 PM

I'm just happy us plds got auto refresh ^^ I really hope they start giving some boosts to thf though, I can imagine that TP update sucking alot.

Balfree

07-19-2006, 12:33 AM

eh, still, SE did say they were only THINKING about these things at fan fest. They never said they would actually happen.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/topics/backnumber/detail/060330_1.html

White Mage
We want to make it so the white mage remains totally dedicated to keeping their party alive, no matter what. No other job should fulfill this role as well as the white mage. We also want white mages to be able to contribute to the party in a way exclusive to their job, aside from just curing. This may be accomplished by adding an ability where white mages could share their HP and MP with party members. Also, we are considering adding the effect of removing status ailments from the Benediction ability.

But yea... they say "may be", but thats more often than not enough confirmation of what will be :-P

Feba

07-19-2006, 12:40 AM

at fan fest. =P

Balfree

07-19-2006, 01:10 AM

well they wrote a news article about it.. ;P

Feba

07-19-2006, 01:12 AM

There's actually some minor changes between what they said at fan fest and what was in the POL article.

I'm guessing due to translation.

Balfree

07-19-2006, 01:54 AM

yea, sometimes they throw a confucious on us <.<

ikkleste

07-19-2006, 02:24 AM

either way it's just common sense to do lots of little tweaks and try to keep things balanced, rather than drop a bombshell and run the risk of majorly ballsing up and making one job drasticly under/over powered and having to go back to the drawing board and either tweaking it up or down. In either case that job would then be seen has having been nerfed by the public (either in the bombshell or in the subsequent downpowering) and we all know how well that goes down.

we might still see further tweaks for whm, they might get thier HP/MP sharing abilities, or they might not, it depends on how these and other adjustments go down, and if SE sees any further need to improve WHM.

These tweaks are going to go on for months and even after the ones that have been anounced don't be surprised if they keep adjusting. By doing it slowly they'll hopefully avoid the need to take back something and have the whole world crying "NERF!!!!onetyone!!11!"

Hamlet

07-19-2006, 04:29 AM

What is LToAU?

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Lao Tzu, father of Taoism.

http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96jun/96jungifs/laotzu.gif

Spinnthrift

07-19-2006, 04:45 AM

I'm personally still waiting for Thf to get something remotely worth inviting one to a party.

So far Thf has been nerfed indirectly more than all the other jobs put together.

I'm not talking about fixes for serious brokeness (Mnk/Sam + Relic Weapon + Asuran Fists) - I'm referring to general nerfage, where we're hit by a stick to make us worse than we are. Tp nerf, ranged acc nerf, I'm waiting for the Thf damage nerf, where SE says we do too much spike damage.

Raydeus

07-19-2006, 08:56 AM

LoneGamer

07-19-2006, 09:12 AM

Originally, Regen was RDM-only, if you look at old JP patch notes. If SE gives WHMs Refresh, I will not be happy.

McBride

07-19-2006, 09:13 AM

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Lao Tzu, father of Taoism.

Okay, you're right. That's totally it. That's the best response ever.

avhmia

07-19-2006, 10:24 AM

What's with SE and their fixation with WHM? WHMs are very rare and not being able to make a party because there aren't any WHM looking is very annoying.

For main healer we only have one freaking job (WHM) followed by RDM and SMN but both jobs are nowhere near as effective, and dying in those parties means either losing a lot of xp or having downtime waiting for a Raise II or higher.

Some people might say it's the same for support but for that you have 3 jobs that can play that role 100% well (RDM, COR, BRD) so you don't lose much if you have one of these jobs over the others.

Tank jobs 2, and with so many DD jobs out there is still very difficult to understand why there's only 1 healer job.

Why can't support jobs like RDM, BRD and COR get at least a RII kind of spell? Same with Regen spells. Why is it so important to have only WHM as a healer if other jobs could fill the role well if they just gave them a few more healing/Raising spells to other jobs?

I still don't get it.

PS> I don't have anything against WHM, but if there aren't any WHM looking then there should be other jobs capable of filling the spot without having to sacrifice 2 support to fill the role.

After level 40, hardly anyone ever considers a WHM necessary for a party. Anyone can get the first regen spell by subbing either WHM or RDM. The higher level regens and raises are WHM exclusive because there is no other job that is just focused on healing.

The fact is, WHM is too powerful of a healer to be needed in exp for most of the game. It's like calling the paramedics because you scraped your knee in many cases, and it shows in our invite rate (which, contrary to popular belief, is pretty mundane). While we are amazingly powerful and efficient as healers (and because of that, vital in endgame), our support and enfeebling abilities are pretty weak, making us a distinct second choice healer for many parties who'd rather the slot go to a job that brings more versatility to the table.

Balfree

07-19-2006, 11:32 AM

Agreed, a whitemage should have more variety in spells, i for one hate the fact that holy got ridiculously nerfed in FFXI, and banish... whats the purpose?...

DakAttack

07-19-2006, 11:45 AM

Maybe healing should be as reliant on Mnd, skill level, and target level as the Blm's spells are.

Raydeus

07-19-2006, 11:47 AM

So maybe give support jobs better healing capabilities and give whm more support capabilities?

It sounds to me like it would be like merging WHM and support jobs into one single category as healer/support.

Then parties would be tank, healer/support, 4 DD... it doesn't sound that bad on paper, both over depending on Refresh/Ballad/Rolls and whms to form a party are bad since there's such a difference in the numbers of DD compared to support/healer jobs. But that also could end up with a lack of DD and a flood of healer and support .

But anyway...it seems I need a vacation.:vent:

avhmia

07-19-2006, 01:38 PM

I don't know, it's a very complicated web in the world of backline party mechanics.

The backline MP-using jobs (RDM, BLM, WHM, SMN) are all in need of a some work. If I had my way, I would see the following happen:

RDM (RDM need some buffs to their enhancing and enfeebling)

Native Magic Acc+ Trait
Second-tier Enfeebles
Regen II: (Lv 60ish)
Haste II: (Lv 65ish) 12.5% stronger than Haste, doesn't stack with Haste

BLM (BLM should get some more boosts to make them more beneficial in faster parties)

Second-tier Elemental Enfeebles
Second-tier drain/aspir
Second-tier AM (Lvs 70,71,72,73,74,75) Fast casting with lower MP cost than first tier, damage comparable to first-tier, extremely long cooldown
"Mana Siphon" spell that drains enemy hp and converts it to BLM MP. For example, the spell does, say, 200 dmg to the enemy and converts that to 50mp fir the caster.

WHM (WHM should have more tools to boost party efficiency and strength)

Regenga: (Lv 45ish) AoE regen 2
AoE status cures (poisonara, stonara, paralynara, etc). Lose Divine Veil
"Veil" spells, similar to a reversed Absorb-line. Strength Veil transfers a portion of the caster's STR to the target for a brief time, Intelligence Veil for INT, and so on.
A "pray" type ability that AoE restores a small amount (20ish) of HP/MP every 30-60 seconds.

SMN (SMN should be capable of filling the role of either a melee or magic DD with their avatars)

Get rid of the bloodpact timer. Bloodpacts have a cooldown and an MP cost which limits them enough. Tie their effectiveness to Avatar TP
Across-the-board boosts to avatar acc and atk.
Gear/food that boosts avatar stats.
Auto-refresh II, +2mp/tick @ level 50.

Macht

07-19-2006, 02:40 PM

Considering that BLM, SMN, and RDM can do manaburn parties they are already quite powerful. It needs adjustments with what they have now before slapping on more.

Problem WHM has is that RDM and SMN (More RDM then SMN) can effectively do WHMs job on their own. The idea of WHM being able to give their Stats temporarily to another player is a good idea. Or make as an ability "Divinity" that gives a single target a percent boost to all stats based off the WHMs stats.

Or add in the an ability like "Trisagion" for WHM allow them to cast 3 instances of a spell as if casting 1 spell.

What ever else you can think. Really though most of the other mages need more adjustments before just slapping more spells on them. WHM however could use some additional spells that are of a beneficial nature to the party.

Esoa

07-19-2006, 02:48 PM

I would like to see RDM get some more job-specific enfeebles.

I would like to see WHM stand out as significantly better healers than RDM or SMN and have some additional support options. Why they don't at least have a +healing potency trait baffles me.

BLM...well I don't know what they need really. I leveled one to 40 and my impression was of sitting on my butt for 50% of the fight, then lightly nuking hoping I wouldn't get agro for the rest of it. I have no idea what proportion of the PT damage I added.

Suteru

07-19-2006, 02:57 PM

Yeah, but it's a very small percentage that do manaburn parties anyway, and when we do, only when there's no other options availible.

Raydeus

07-19-2006, 03:09 PM

Problem WHM has is that RDM and SMN (More RDM then SMN) can effectively do WHMs job on their own.

That's not entirely true, maybe they can replace a WHM but it's at the expense of wasting a lot of MP to compensate the lack of healing abilities, but that doesn't mean they can cover the role entirely.

Since neither SMN nor RDM get anything better than Raise I and crappy Regen I, no high lvl -ra or -ga spells, that means WHM is the only job that can completely cover the healing role.

For all the other party roles (DD, Tank and support) you have at least 2 jobs that can cover the role entirely.

I can understand SE wanting to preserve the WHM's role, but the same could be said about DD and support jobs, what makes WHM so special?

Aeni

07-19-2006, 03:31 PM

Problem WHM has is that RDM and SMN (More RDM then SMN) can effectively do WHMs job on their own.

That's not entirely true, maybe they can replace a WHM but it's at the expense of wasting a lot of MP to compensate the lack of healing abilities, but that doesn't mean they can cover the role entirely.

Macht, RDM/WHM is a terribly inefficient healing machine versus a main WHM. You should take a look at Icemage's own compiling of just how much MP we burn through. A main WHM can be a part of a party's non-stop chaining with a refresher in party, but a RDM main who has to be both the support AND healer is not as efficient (Just because you free up another slot does not mean you're getting the same return on MP usage) The only exception to this is burn parties killing monsters that just die faster than someone can fish them. This is generally in end-game and not indicative of desirable party combinations in the first 75% of the road to level 75...

Macht

07-19-2006, 04:02 PM

That's not entirely true, maybe they can replace a WHM but it's at the expense of wasting a lot of MP to compensate the lack of healing abilities, but that doesn't mean they can cover the role entirely.

Since neither SMN nor RDM get anything better than Raise I and crappy Regen I, no high lvl -ra or -ga spells, that means WHM is the only job that can completely cover the healing role.

For all the other party roles (DD, Tank and support) you have at least 2 jobs that can cover the role entirely.

I can understand SE wanting to preserve the WHM's role, but the same could be said about DD and support jobs, what makes WHM so special?

Point was it's going with the same idea provided above that hinders wHM to reaching end-game as easily. Why bring the paramedics to fix up a scratch on the knees.

The RDM is quite effective at covering the parties healing needs because if they managed their MP right by the time they are desperate for MP they should be able to convert and go right at it all again. WHM is overkill to healing which helps end game but just hits that interchange were their overkill in healing can be given up for more benefits in other ways.

Which is why RDM can be more enticing as a healer replacement just before those big end-game events.

Double Post Edited:
Macht, RDM/WHM is a terribly inefficient healing machine versus a main WHM. You should take a look at Icemage's own compiling of just how much MP we burn through. A main WHM can be a part of a party's non-stop chaining with a refresher in party, but a RDM main who has to be both the support AND healer is not as efficient (Just because you free up another slot does not mean you're getting the same return on MP usage) The only exception to this is burn parties killing monsters that just die faster than someone can fish them. This is generally in end-game and not indicative of desirable party combinations in the first 75% of the road to level 75...

I've read it but like a huge majority of stuff presented is often to littered or results are garbaged. He considers purely only the HP benefit to MP and ignores time progression and monster count. Data is just to primitive, a 2+2=4 setup when it is more abstract then that.

Aeni

07-19-2006, 04:04 PM

I've read it but like a huge majority of stuff presented is often to littered or results are garbaged. He considers purely only the HP benefit to MP and ignores time progression and monster count. Data is just to primitive, a 2+2=4 setup when it is more abstract then that.

I agree with him, because as a main RDM, he pretty much nailed it on the head. I'm not sure, but you probably took a RDM job 60+ so our experiences just are different I guess. If you haven't leveled RDM yet, though, I think you ought to do so before passing judgement.

dirtyclown

07-19-2006, 04:31 PM

Oh shi- Kutch?! Haven't seen you since Legacy of Cid died. I doubt you'd remember me, but it's awesome to know that some of the veteran players are still around. Sorry I can't answer the question. D:

Hamlet

07-19-2006, 06:34 PM

RDM may be less efficient (no regen2 or 3, raises don't factor into healing), but we have convert, so it pretty much evens out. In a melee burn party, which are all the rage, everyone is subbing /nin, so you have to cure less anyway.

In a standard setup, whm is still needed. Also, in some non-standard setups, whm can work well (like tonight, I was pulling in Mamook as rdm/nin and we had a whm that was crucial in the party, although come to think of it, a rdm/whm might've been better, except for the one death. The whm didn't have time to do any regens anyway).

I can understand SE wanting to preserve the WHM's role, but the same could be said about DD and support jobs, what makes WHM so special?

For the same reason that they want to preserve PLD's role. It's because the jobs are so specialized that they can't do anything else effectively (PLD can DD, but nobody believes it- and I personally have not seen it but I do believe it).

It seems that SE has lost control over their own game when it comes to PLDs and WHMs. The players have found better jobs to fill the slots of these two jobs, leaving these ultra-specialiezed jobs in the cold (although I haven't heard of any horror stories of whms lfg yet, but it might happen)

Oh, and RDM will never get anything ever again (except nerfs). SE gave us the ultimate buff with refresh, and it's only downhill from there. I would love to see tier 2 enfeebs, but it's not going to happen.

Oh, one more thing. Lao Tzu said, "Stop thinking, and end your problems."

MisterCookie

07-19-2006, 06:57 PM

Agreed, a whitemage should have more variety in spells, i for one hate the fact that holy got ridiculously nerfed in FFXI, and banish... whats the purpose?...

Hah, a friend and me were discussing the need for banish in this game. While we were farming coffers, whenever a mob cast banish we'd do a bunch of /panics and shout for help.
And as for holy, that pisses me off too...for a spell with such a high mp cost, it does a pitiful amount of damage.

For the same reason that they want to preserve PLD's role. It's because the jobs are so specialized that they can't do anything else effectively (PLD can DD, but nobody believes it- and I personally have not seen it but I do believe it).

Bingo. Imagine if war was a crappy DD and was only decent at tanking. When Pld and Nin became 'the' tank jobs, war would have been rendered useless, except that in reality they were still good DDs. If say whm lost its role as a healer, they have nothing to fall back on and are screwed.

Raydeus

07-19-2006, 07:01 PM

Oh, one more thing. Lao Tzu said, "Stop thinking, and end your problems."

You've been reading Tao-te ching haven't ya? :P

Hamlet

07-19-2006, 07:53 PM

You've been reading Tao-te ching haven't ya? :P

Haha, actually I just got that off the internet. I did read it in college. I should check it out again. Eastern philosophy is great.

To finish off the idea of why keeping whm as the best healer is important, healing only takes up one slot in a party. There's always multiple slots for damage dealers, and with the new melee burns, there's 5 slots. There's STILL too many melee, and I've always thought that this game had WAY too many jobs that do the same thing basically (hit things). But, generally speaking, all melee are about equal. With rdm especially as main healer, you can fill the main healing slot AND either get some refreshes, or just a bottomless mp pit of healing with convert, which whm does not have. I don't think SMN was ever going to steal main healing from whm, but I think the only thing stopping RDM from becoming the #1 choice for main healing is the fact that alot of rdms really despise main healing.

Rai|Kye

07-20-2006, 01:10 AM

Macht

07-20-2006, 09:17 AM

I agree with him, because as a main RDM, he pretty much nailed it on the head. I'm not sure, but you probably took a RDM job 60+ so our experiences just are different I guess. If you haven't leveled RDM yet, though, I think you ought to do so before passing judgement.

Nah, to be clear that wasn't passing judgement yet. That was only my stated belief that the equation and stucture is inaccurate. There are reason's to conserve MP but when you have trump cards in your back pocket like Convert and Refresh. Essentially giving you full MP again then the need of MP conservation only extends to the length of time till you can convert again.

For WHM MP conservation is a continuous struggle to keep it as high as possible in attempt for it to last out the entire party session or as long as possible. There's a difference there.

Raydeus

07-20-2006, 09:26 AM

That still doesn't answer why is WHM the only healing capable job, but I guess PLD, WHM and BLM are in the same place in this game, at least now that burn parties have taken over the XP scene.

Fights are just way too fast now and those jobs were designed for an older playstyle (more dmg healed, more hate generated, SC MB, etc.), and all those things just don't apply anymore for the most part, specially after ToAU TP-burn areas.

I don't remember the last time anyone bothered with a SC in the new areas, and mobs like Colibri are just not BLM friendly since they can easily mpk the tank if they get their spells mimiced at the wrong time, last BLM I party with fighting Colibri was backup healing instead.

I really don't know what's SE thinking but it would seem things are getting out of control for the most part.

Karinya

07-22-2006, 03:06 PM

Well, I had a long post ready, but realized it was pointless. It's too late for anyone to change what's going into Monday's patch (well, SE could delay and change it, but I bet they won't) and it's useless to speculate without knowing about Monday's changes. Therefore it would be more productive to discuss this later when we have more info and possibly can still get a message to SE about what to put in the *next* major update.