Well, personally, I don't give a rats ass if people .dat swap for "pretties" and "shinies" because ultimately I don't care if I run around in a little pink tutu on your screen. Consequently, if you want to see me run around in a little pink tutu, I wear blessed + nobles combo. Dat swap away.

When you (in the general sense) are now able to do sommething easier than me (in the general sense) because you have .dat swapped, then you are cheating, even if we arne't directly competing. For example, swaping out darters = cheating. Not because I am down there with the darters, trying to outclaim something before you do; but because if I -were- down there with the darters, you'd have unfair advantage. Swapping out chests to big floating arrows that say "LOOK HERE" gives you an unfair advantage over me. That's cheating.

Swapping out chest .dat files to make them look like the dead man's chest from Pirates #2, I don't give a rats ass, cause again, thats just a visual element.

Windower + Plugins is where my views tend to raise eyebrows.

This thread is only starting because we were hijacking a different thread. I was bored, so I started a new one. Continuation of the above quote.

W/ regards to a windower - as in something that allows you to play FFXI in a windowed mode, with no additional functionality, I have no issue with this on a personal level. I'm not saying it should be allowed in any way shape or form - only that I personally do not take issue with it.

My reasoning is faily simple. PS2 users can use thier computers like normal while playing FFXI. As can 360 users. PC users can as well. I don't see that doing so gives an unfair advantage.

W/ regards to pages like the atlas web page (i dunno policies on posting links, so I'm not going to post it) I don't see it any different than opening up a hard copy of the atlas which has all the same material. So again, on a personal level, I don't care if you use it. The same goes for programs that display maps on a second monitor.

Likewise, I take no issue on a personal level with chat loggers, parsers, etc, as they don't in my opinion give an extra or unfair advantage.

Overlay programs that show recast timers - again, no issue with this, as the information is already available to you on your screen, at any time within the game. How you choose to display that information is up to you.

DrawDistance, which increases the draw distance of non-mob, non-npc, non-PC objects... I don't care. If anything it makes it harder for you to see things. I also don't care if these remove weather effects, since you can turn those off anyhow.

Things like TParty, shadow counters, etc, I -do- have a problem with on a personal level. You can't see another person's TP unless they tell you, so you shouldn't be able to unless they tell you. Like wise, there is no "shadow counter" any where on your screen normally, so you shouldn't have one 3rd party either.

I guess bassicly my personal opinion on the matter is if you can see it on your screen whenever you want, and all you do is change the way it looks - aka, make it look prettier, or make it display in a different place - then I don't care.

I disagree with the adding of information or the complete or partial removal of graphics that allow you so see things you can't normally see. Which ultimately is why I don't care about things like BloodPace but I do about TParty and like programs.

Anyhow. Like I said, my views are a little different than most. I figure most people are either hardcore cheats/hacks are bad, or are Just windower and .dat swaps are OK. I guess I've just narrowed it down specificly is all.

Consequently, yes, I'm aware that even my "personal" OK's are against the ToS. Cheating is cheat if SE says its Cheatin, and just because I -personally- don't have a problem with it, I'm not condoning it or suggest anyone base thier descision to cheat or not to cheat off anything I friggin' say. Cause yeah. It'd be stupid to. XD

Windower+.dat swapping would be the furthest I go. TP plugin comes standard with windower and I still wait for ppl to say their TP cause you dont know if they are ready. Just nice to have a heads up if someone doesnt say TP till their 100+.

I agree with you sevenpointflaw, thats how I am about most of this.

I concur. Except I'm more iffy on DrawDistance. I'm not entirely familiar with it, but if it lets you get by weather effects completely, not so cool. (Normally, if you turn weather effects off, you still get the limited visibility range they incur, you just don't see the weather itself.)

ive been hearing about pressing thee window button and alt tabbing does somthign to the game. But i play most games in windowed mode so its easier to change the music, or check somthing on the internet easier. will that effect the way the game is played (ie exploit)?

I dont want to do this unintentionally (or intentionally)

I concur. Except I'm more iffy on DrawDistance. I'm not entirely familiar with it, but if it lets you get by weather effects completely, not so cool. (Normally, if you turn weather effects off, you still get the limited visibility range they incur, you just don't see the weather itself.)Would this provide an unfair advantage to other players? I haven't really ever been in a situation where being able to see farther would have helped me beat another player to a claim or something. I mean, if I'm too far away to see it, I wouldn't be able to claim it anyway.

I'd love to be able to see further into the horizon though. It's much prettier, IMO. At least from what I've seen of DrawDistance screens.

I tend to devide "cheating" into three categories.

The first is what I consider modifcations should be allowed by SE. This generally includes Windower(no plug-ins, expect draw-distance), .Dat mods(not the mimic/real treasure chests, just normal for fun mods.) and on-screen Recast Timers(instead of a command).

The second is what I think of as "Acceptable" cheats, but cheats nonetheless. These include Ustu counters, Harmless bots(such as SMN skillup bots), Monster Scanners(immitation of Widescan) and under very, very rare circumstances, Draw-in and Position hacking, and ToD counters, and .Dat editing(such as the treasure flags in assault, and removing darters) and Plug-ins.

The third I think of as harmful cheating. This group contains botting(Fish and NM), fleehacking, RMT, Telehacking, most of the time Position and Draw-In hacking, Packet Injection, Packet Sniffing, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting. I feel that those using this group of cheats should be banned without suspention or face another penalty + suspention.

The main diffrence I feel is that the first two groups, though they can give a small unfair advantage, can be used to help players without ruining the game for others. If you swap out the chests and win Golden Salvage, yeah it's cheating. But it's not hurting others doing the assault, onlymaking it easier for you and your group. Utsu counters? They show how much sheihei and shadows are left, yes it makesit easier but it dosn't make it harder for others. The third group, such as botting and fleehacking, DOES give a major unfair advantage that does penalize other people's gameplay.

ive been hearing about pressing thee window button and alt tabbing does somthign to the game. But i play most games in windowed mode so its easier to change the music, or check somthing on the internet easier. will that effect the way the game is played (ie exploit)?

I dont want to do this unintentionally (or intentionally)

FFXI unlike most other games doesn't alow you to lose focus of the game. If you alt+tab, press Alt+Ctrl+Del, or you get a pop up the game will completly crash. There are 3rd party programs that will put the game in a window, but they are considered illegal and you can get banned for it.

Would this provide an unfair advantage to other players? I haven't really ever been in a situation where being able to see farther would have helped me beat another player to a claim or something. I mean, if I'm too far away to see it, I wouldn't be able to claim it anyway.

I'd love to be able to see further into the horizon though. It's much prettier, IMO. At least from what I've seen of DrawDistance screens.
If, in the midst of a rainstorm, one player has to stop and keep checking a map or otherwise getting his bearings, while the other can just keep running toward a distant landmark he shouldn't be able to see, I'd call that an unfair advantage. Granted, it's not a massively tangible benefit. But delineating "cheating" vs. "not cheating" based solely on the actual rewards reaped is kind of shady (I was only fleehacking so I could get back to my moghouse and log out sooner!). And that's where my personal line is drawn.

Edit: To make it clear, I'm not talking about simply increasing draw distance. That, to me, is sort of equivalent to my playing at a nice, high resolution where I can actually read distant mob's names without having to target them, unlike on PS2. What I'm talking about is if the DrawDistance plugin lets you completely remove weather effects and the limited visibility that comes with them (even when they're turned off). I don't know if it allows you to do that or not, which is why I said I'm iffy on it.

Is it cheating if I leave "We <3 Katamari" in my PS2 while I play?

/panic (does the floppy hand Mithra geek out!)

I think being on a PS2 is crappy enough. It's almost a complete non-issue for me to decide what I consider 'unfair' uses on the PC. Everything about the game is better for you already, it's like 'making the sky blue-er.'

I didn't realize that turning off weather effects (something that PS2 users can't do anyway) still kept the same limited visibiliy. I learn something new every day!

And I agree, however, re: fine-line cheating still being cheating.

I'ma hafta agree with the OP's concept of what's 'cheating' or not. Only things I have are the windower, with TPparty and other plugins removed, and some armor dat swaps. Anything else, except the draw distance thing which I don't use cause my com prolly can't handle it, gives you an unfair advantage over others. Though some things are worse then others and some things are just totally uneeded. I mean is it really that hard to count your own shadows?

Edit: I see no difference in draw distance with weather on or off. The only thing that changes on my screen when I turn the weather off is that it, and the horrid lag that comes with it, are no longer on my screen. I don't see doubling draw distance as a hack either because all it lets you do is see further into the scenery. NPCs, PCs and such still don't become visable until they are within their normal range. Draw distance gives no unfair advantage that you can't obtain by simply knowing the area.

I didn't have a limited visibilty until I upgrade my graphics card, I could see all the landscaping poping in the distance. Increasing the drawdistance can make the game prettier, but only for screenshots. There's certain areas where something rises in the distance that's completely missing everything around it that players wouldn't normally see, and it looks strange.

I often turn the clipping plane way down in my settings when in places like Valkurm (since it's laggy enough as it is). It's always funny to see tunnels appear before the landmasses that they are tunneling through.

Hopefully when I get my new video card later this week, I won't have to turn the clipping plane down anymore. We'll see.

I can see the blades of the windmills in Konschtat, the tunnels in Valkurm, and the windows of Outposts at night, from anywhere in the zone as long as I have a line of sight to them. It's freakin' weird.

Now that I'm thinking about it more, I guess my little discourse on weather effects doesn't make any sense. It's not the landscape draw distance that decreases even with them off, it's how close you have to be to a mob to see it. The DrawDistance plugin doesn't effect that, so, y'know, nevermind. :o

I agree with you on pretty much everything, except I do feel recast is cheating to a point, as are map programs that display your location. I don't feel TParty is cheating, but that's widely varible on use. For example, if you're using it to determine if someone in your alliance is a mage or a melee without searching them, it's not cheating.


If you use it for SCs, then it's not really cheating since you were going to tell them your TP anyway.

If you use it as a mage to know when SCs are coming, without having to watch PT chat, it's cheating.

I wasn't too worried about the windower being cheating until the scripts that people could just add in on their own became common. Yes, the party TP and distance plug-ins are obvious unfair advantages. But the scripts just get worse, since they allowed the creation of simple bots.

I personally have no problem with the blood pact timer, even when it did work. If they had added /recast "Blood Pact" while you don't have an avatar out (which I don't believe is too much to ask), it wouldn't even be needed.

Being able to see party member's TP without them telling you... This one is questionable. I personaly use it, but I don't rely on it for anything. I report my TP when I'm at 100%, or when somebody else reports their TP as being 100% and I'm not there yet.

Distance is questionable also. This one can be used for more than just helping your party, so I'd say it's worse than the TP party plug-in. It's moderately useful... Although if you play your job long enough, you don't need it. It's nothing major though.

DrawDistance/IME plugin/clock/exp watch - Meh. I don't use any of these, but they're not harmful plug-ins either.

Dat Swapping...I have to take Sevenpointflaw's stance on. How you want to make your character look on your screen is your business. However when it actually gives you an advantage, it gets much more questionable. I'm against swapping chests with something else, so you don't get mimics. I'm really against swapping out darters so you can't target them and misclaim on fafnir/nidhogg.

Flee Bot/Pos. hacking/all other generic bots - I'm against these, obviously. What I do find funny is how people justify these.
Taken from a screenshot of some FFXI bot forum:
"i am the laziest person ever now lol.. i never go anywhere the right way.. for fafnir camps i op warp to zitah and then jump and zone straight to aery, i havent ran through boyahda in so longg haha..."

Totally not an unfair advantage here! Nope. None at all. Nadda... *cough* That's just sad. Other people talk about how everything in the game is so slow. One even talks about how he got banned for fleehacking once, but he got another account and still does it. ._.

I think Mimics have a different .dat from Chests. I could be wrong on that, but you can't like, swap out the chest .dats to beat Treasures and Tribulations, for example.

just a quick question. ive never done any kind of .dat change, and i know its really only affecting you. BUT is it possible to perhaps change a certian model to be like 10 feet high and be colored a highlighter yellow, making it that much easier to spot an nm? If so then that to me would be considered cheating, just as in cs for example when you change models to be either red or blue, have long hands, etc.

just a quick question. ive never done any kind of .dat change, and i know its really only affecting you. BUT is it possible to perhaps change a certian model to be like 10 feet high and be colored a highlighter yellow, making it that much easier to spot an nm? If so then that to me would be considered cheating, just as in cs for example when you change models to be either red or blue, have long hands, etc.Most NMs look the same as normal mobs; they just have different names. So that wouldn't help you spot NMs easier. It would just fill your screen with giant highlighted mobs.

As far as I know, the only real use for swapping out chests is for the assault and maybe for Pso'Xja. I just find it incredibly lazy. At least if you use SMN on it, you have a chance of failing due to the fish aggroing you at the wrong time. Plus the mimics really hurt when they beat you up for a second before carbuncle headbutts it.

I don't think you can swap out an NM's model unless it's a unique model. So you could make behemoth into an...uh... orange behemoth. There's really not many NMs that you could swap out to make them more noticable than they already are.

ahh ok, but what about an nm that spawns in a place where its the only one of its kind? Then perhaps someone could do the switch and camp it all dya, then switch back and never be bothered.

I suppose that's a possibility, but I can't think of many mobs that spawn in an area without any simliar looking mobs nearby. At least, not non force-spawn NMs.

Like what though? Most of the monsters that don't fit in an area are force spawned or are non-lotto. The only lotto NMs that have different dats than their place holders that I can think of offhand are like the ones in kuftal. Kill a bunch of raptors deep in kuftal, suddenly a green one shows up. That stands out enough already.

I could be wrong about NMs and non-NMs of the same look sharing dats though. I've never really looked at monster dat files much.

IME plugin? Does that work? Damn, I've never been in the least interested in any FFXI hacks but suddenly I'm tempted...

IME plugin? Does that work? Damn, I've never been in the least interested in any FFXI hacks but suddenly I'm tempted...If you do use it, be careful. GMs can tell which version of the game you're running, and if you start talking in Japanese, you'll be in trouble.

Silly? Perhaps. But they don't want anyone but the Japanese players speaking in the language.

Silly? Perhaps. But they don't want anyone but the Japanese players speaking in the language.

Which is entirely stupid when the whole picture is thought of. It would be nice to be able to speak to Japanese players in their language instead of just romaji. I've felt upset about that since the NA release... It's disappointing.

Which is entirely stupid when the whole picture is thought of. It would be nice to be able to speak to Japanese players in their language instead of just romaji. I've felt upset about that since the NA release... It's disappointing.

Or for Japanese who live in NA >.>

the bad thing about it, is that most known cheats are already available over the internet. i have googled "FFXI cheats" and there are results for

POS hacks, bots, windower, how to cheat

I won't get into details, but there is a bigger problem than you realize.

For the most part, I'd agree with sevenpointflaw's views on cheating. I didn't recognize some of the "unofficial plugins" so I haven't formed an opinion on them yet.

Things like position-hacking are definitely cheats. It's pathetic when respected players are caught cheating, say "yeah, but I won't do it anymore" (why? Because you got caught? And I believe you?) and are still respected by their peers. The excuse is that the "only" way to compete with other players for end-game is with cheats. If the thrill of the hunt is supposed to be your skill vs. the skill of others, then there's no accomplishment if a 3rd-party program did the work for you. It's like swapping in Andre Agassi to win a high school tennis match and claiming victory for yourself.

Personally, I don't even use a Windower just because I like things simple and clean. There are things I'd like SE to add (like allow <calls> in /echo), but I just send them suggestions rather than adding a 3rd-party program.

Personally, I don't even use a Windower just because I like things simple and clean. There are things I'd like SE to add (like allow <calls> in /echo), but I just send them suggestions rather than adding a 3rd-party program.

I feel the same way. I would love to be able to window or minimize FFXI, but I won't break the ToS to do so. I realize that folks tend to aggro to that kind of sentiment, but that's just the way it is. Every time I log on I agree to a set of rules, and when I give my word it means something to me not to break it.

Now, while I do consider it a violation of the ToS, I choose to overlook it when it comes to friends and such. I value their friendship, and that's more important to me than a matter of moral clarity. I realize that not everyone puts the same value on these things than I do (and certain people put a lot more! ^^), so I just ignore it.

The problem with windower, though, is that it is fed by a very progressive mentality. It started with people being frustrated that SE gave them no way to window, so they made a way. Then you couldn't see party TP and alliance MP, so they made a way. Then you couldn't tell distance from target, so they made a way. Then they didn't like the macro length restrictions, so they made a new macroing system. Creeping, it goes further and further towards the gray areas. Already windower macros have been used to bot summoning/enhancing/healing skill ups.

That's what comes of accepting gray areas. On the whole, I think cheating of all kinds (botting/speedhacking/the wait time hack/the PM2-5 exploit) has become slowly less and less of an unacceptable behavior. Unless something happens to shift the mindset of the entire playing population in a better direction, I really fear that it will just get worse and worse until eventually it kills the game completely.

The problem with windower, though, is that it is fed by a very progressive mentality. It started with people being frustrated that SE gave them no way to window, so they made a way. Then you couldn't see party TP and alliance MP, so they made a way. Then you couldn't tell distance from target, so they made a way. Then they didn't like the macro length restrictions, so they made a new macroing system. Creeping, it goes further and further towards the gray areas. Already windower macros have been used to bot summoning/enhancing/healing skill ups.I hate to use slippery slope arguements, but in this case, I really think that it applies. What started as "I just want to be able to Alt-Tab the game" has turned into (for a lot of folks, but by no means all) "I just want to see my teammates TP" and "I just want to have something else count my shadows/help me find the sweet spot" or "I just want to have something to help with the boredom of magic skilling", etc.

Right now there is a guy developing (or rather who has developed) a very basic copy of Windower. But there are people bulling him about the fact that "no one" wants something so simple. Except that they do. A program that just allowed me to alt-tab with no other functionality (even if it's functionality that I can easily disable) would be fantastic. Even more fantastic would be SE wising up and just implementing it for themselves.

My god >.< I just saw a tape of hackers insta-claiming things at chainspell casting speeds(on BLM) when a monster JUST spawns, even before the "you must wait longer" wears off...

They where claiming using Flare, Burst and Freeze.

And it really was the damn spell, not a .dat swap.

EDIT: And no, I'm not going to link the video. Not only does it show how they did it, but it's posted on a FFXI hacking fourm, and I don't want to give out the URL.

I hate to use slippery slope arguements, but in this case, I really think that it applies. What started as "I just want to be able to Alt-Tab the game" has turned into (for a lot of folks, but by no means all) "I just want to see my teammates TP" and "I just want to have something else count my shadows/help me find the sweet spot" or "I just want to have something to help with the boredom of magic skilling", etc.

I know, I hate to use it too because it just sounds like a line from a 50 anti-pot movie... But if you look at how windower has developed over time, it's really... interesting.

From a benign and simple thing, it has developed a whole range of functions that really change the way you can play the game. While that's bad in itself, it has pushed back the line on what people accept as cheats or not, and it keeps getting pushed back further and further. It pains me to see people complain after an update because this or that plug-in has stopped working. If you look at some of the tools that are promoted on the windower site, you see that things are moving further and further away from the standard FFXI client.

Interseting though, SE has changed in response to Windower and other 3rd party macros. I seem to remember that now, "attended macroing" is permitted. While not officially via programs like Windower, you are allowed to use macros generated by yoursystem. By that I'm specificly refering to things like the G15 keyboard, in which macros can be created at the "system level" even if its 3rd party.

Annoying, considering I don't have $80 to spend on a keyboard that just happens to be manufactured by the business partner of SE...

As for the slippery slope, that's why I draw the line where I do. Its not so slippery. I don't want to see your TP on my screen, because I can't see it whenever I want unless you tell me. I -can- see my bloodpact recast timer (and I'm not talking about /recast) on my screem whenever I want, so I don't care where it shows that.

Unlimited macro length... I really don't care about. Having a 60 line macro to me is no different than having 10 macros 6 lines each. In and of itself, the Windower macro system doesn't really add all that much functionality. It doesn't allow conditional macros (and obcious cheat since the macro starts "thinking" for yourself) or anything like that.

Something worth noting about the windower macro system that I've mentioned before in these forums, the PS2 macros are very smooth. They are quick and responsive, and rarely suffer from "slowness". The PC macros are slow, unresponsive, take a noticable ammount of time to become available after pressing ctrl or alt, and are often "eaten" by lag. 9/10 if you "fast tap" your macro on a PC, nothing will happen. Doing the same on a PS2 has no problem.

Windower Macros don't tend to have this problem. You can fast tap all you want, and your macros will go off as if you were using a PS2.

Interseting though, SE has changed in response to Windower and other 3rd party macros. I seem to remember that now, "attended macroing" is permitted. While not officially via programs like Windower, you are allowed to use macros generated by yoursystem. By that I'm specificly refering to things like the G15 keyboard, in which macros can be created at the "system level" even if its 3rd party.

Annoying, considering I don't have $80 to spend on a keyboard that just happens to be manufactured by the business partner of SE...

Annoying, yes, but you have to realize that Logitech never made this Keyboard to "just work with FFXI." Plus, I do own this keyboard and I'll be the first to admit that it's macro system is not very good for FFXI at all (It's perfect for WOW, but that's for another discussion)

Unlimited macro length... I really don't care about. Having a 60 line macro to me is no different than having 10 macros 6 lines each. In and of itself, the Windower macro system doesn't really add all that much functionality. It doesn't allow conditional macros (and obcious cheat since the macro starts "thinking" for yourself) or anything like that.

Personally I feel this is cheating. Why? Because, with an unlimited macro length, you do realize that this opens up for botting - and botting of ANY KIND is illegal.

"Unattended" macroing is equivalent to an unlimited length macro, don't you think? If you're going to be present at your game, then why bother having an unlimited macro, since you can't do much anyway (And you can't use any other macros since it will disrupt the execution of the initial macro)

Ah, I agree with you in the sense that an unlimited macro is likely made for the purpose of botting and botting only. I guess I should say that I don't have a personal problem with breaching the 6-liine limitation. For example, using a univiersal macro for Summoner buffs. If there lets say, 12 summons each with 1 buff, that is two macros. I don't care if those macros are made into one.

Dat Swapping...I have to take Sevenpointflaw's stance on. How you want to make your character look on your screen is your business. However when it actually gives you an advantage, it gets much more questionable. I'm against swapping chests with something else, so you don't get mimics.

The only gaurenteed way to not get a mimic is to use a proper key. Dat swapping chests just makes them easier to find. Whether they're changed to a giant green and yellow banner with a chest on it or giant, candy cane stripped magic pots with sound and all, all dat swapping chests does is make it easier to find them.

Which I do the same thing with maps so I don't really need dat swaps.

The only gaurenteed way to not get a mimic is to use a proper key. Dat swapping chests just makes them easier to find. Whether they're changed to a giant green and yellow banner with a chest on it or giant, candy cane stripped magic pots with sound and all, all dat swapping chests does is make it easier to find them.

Which I do the same thing with maps so I don't really need dat swaps.

So, this would mean that a Mimic's animations are in the same DAT as the usual Trasure Chest and Coffer's? I kind of guessed as much, I had an idea earlier, and I knew it sounded flawed.

for one, windower DOES NOT have a shadow counter. At best they have an utsu recast timer.

There are many things which windower users do which windower does not support, and in some cases, vice versa.


You may say they're slowly creeping into hacks, but anyone who actually uses their forums knows this isn't the case. They've kept a lot of things from being released because they're afraid of windower being used for botting, windower is in a very bad condition as is (after this next update, Archbells Windower might not ever function again) since the creators hate ffxi..


They know they have the power to make some very powerful hacks with windower, they know ffxi better than most anyone that didn't make it, and they don't want it to happen.

Unlimited macros are there to make eq swaps and things such as that possible, not to encourage botting. Even IBHalliWell's SMN macro is very debated on their forums.


Many windower users don't even agree with plugins, and deleted them. Personally I have no problem with them, but hardly use any (except EXPWatch) because I find them rather ugly.

I hate ugly plugins too.

amen

I hate ugly plugins too.

Well aren't we Mr. Superficial.

Well aren't we Mr. Superficial.We are! [Nice to meet you.]

Well, to make amends for my one-liner, I guess I'll have to post an opinion on this subject.


There seems to be a major divisive line: No 3rd party apps, or some.

Seeing as how those that disagree with 3rd party apps being used in any way have a pretty clear cut perspective, it's difficult to discussion that particular opinion.

However, when dealing with the issue to the point where you have crossed the line into making your own judgments about the applicability of the Terms of Service, there is a much larger area to swim and flop about in. Lots of lines are drawn based on different things.

Now, it seems fundamental to the opinion that some 3rd party apps (i.e. the windower) are ok that they do not necessitate an advantage over other players in the game, and this seems a reasonable enough opinion. That is, afterall, the most likely extrapolation of the spirit of the Terms of Service clause banning 3rd party application use.

An interesting issue has just recently arisen. The discussion of unlimited macroing capability, particularly as given by the G15 logitech keyboard (which I happen to be in possession of). Unlimited macroing is subject to abuse, however, it seems unreasonable that one would be committing a moral wrong by creating a seven line macro. Why? Well it just makes something you could do earlier slightly more convenient.

But then, how many macro lines is too many? 18 lines? This could be done by hitting three macros consecutively.

24?
30?
36?

Where exactly might one draw the line? It would have to be a somewhat arbitrary opinion, considering any user of the game has the ability to produce 1200 consecutive lines of script via normal in game macros. Sure, they'd have to be at the their computer to do all that, but what of someone who creates a 1200 line macro using a different means, presses the single button, but remains at the keyboard?

Is attendance the determining factor? It would seem so. But in the latter case the attendance is not related to the execution of the macro, thus essentially being the same as not attending (as far as macros go).

So why is it a meaningful gesture? Can we conclude, since attendance is not necessitated by unlimited macro capability, that using such a program is in fact wrong, and 'cheating' whether you remain at the game or not?

I'm still puzzling over this one. I think it's rather interesting.

Attendance isn't the only issue with extended macro capability. A mage who, because of extended macrso, can macro in more than five pieces of appropriate gear per spell (and also macro them back out once the spell is cast, all on the same macro) has a distinct advantage over a mage who uses the in-game macros and thus has to choose between either individual macros just for swapping gear, or limiting it to five pieces swapped per spell (and not swapped back out). It doesn't directly effect the mage (let's call him Mage A) who's using the in-game macro system, in that the mage who uses extended macros (Mage B) isn't making Mage A's spells any less effective. But he does have a distinct performance advantage, and from an outside view with no knowledge of who's using what for macros, Mage B is simply going to look like a better mage, especially at higher levels.

I can't say for sure which side of that particular gray area I fall in. Just pointing out that attendance is not the only factor.

Attendance isn't the only issue with extended macro capability. A mage who, because of extended macrso, can macro in more than five pieces of appropriate gear per spell (and also macro them back out once the spell is cast, all on the same macro) has a distinct advantage over a mage who uses the in-game macros and thus has to choose between either individual macros just for swapping gear, or limiting it to five pieces swapped per spell (and not swapped back out). It doesn't directly effect the mage (let's call him Mage A) who's using the in-game macro system, in that the mage who uses extended macros (Mage B) isn't making Mage A's spells any less effective. But he does have a distinct performance advantage, and from an outside view with no knowledge of who's using what for macros, Mage B is simply going to look like a better mage, especially at higher levels.

I can't say for sure which side of that particular gray area I fall in. Just pointing out that attendance is not the only factor.

Excellent point, and something I had not considered (apparent in the fact that in all my rambling I didn't mention it once). That definately creates a leaning towards the illegitimate side of things.

by the same token, a PS2 user who uses thier built in macro system has less performance issues than the PC user who has to mash thier buttons to get a macro to go off. All things being equal (in this case legit), things aren't equal. In order to have a macro system that works as well as PS2/360 users have, I have to violate the ToS. Its either that, or wait a couple seconds for my macro pallet to appear on screen, then anothe couple seconds for the macro to actually go off... and thats lag issues aside.

The thing about it, though, is... The G15 is no less available to every player than a high-end PC and a fast, stable connection. Those things can also give distinct advanatages, and as far as I know, the G15 isn't against the ToS. Unattended gameplay is, so if you do, for example, use the G15 to "bot" summoning skill ups, that's not such a gray area.

But it gets more difficult to argue against the G15 when you consider that one player's connection will eat another's for breakfast, or a higher resolution meaning my chat log doesn't zip by as unreadably quickly as a PS2's.

When it comes to hardware, I think it makes the most sense to just stick to the ToS as much as possible for the debate. If the hardware doesn't break the ToS, or you don't use it in such a way that you're breaking the ToS, I think it's hard to denounce it very strongly.

And then, if extended macros via the G15 or another programmable keyboard are okay, why would software that mimics that functionality not be okay? That's much like the comparison of just-a-windower-windower to having a second PC to browse while playing.

Edit: Didn't see Sevenpointflaw's reply while I was writing this. In case it seems like a reply to that.

Y'all consider the IME plugin a cheat? What about a status icons dat swap (to make different status effects look different, so Phalanx, Utsusemi, and Barfire for example, don't look all the same)?

Y'all consider the IME plugin a cheat? What about a status icons dat swap (to make different status effects look different, so Phalanx, Utsusemi, and Barfire for example, don't look all the same)?

Well, personally, since that information is available on your screen any time you choose it to be on your screen regardless of whether or not it is a swapped .dat, I don't really care if people swap it out.

If anyone tries to ACTUALLY use a G15 for their macros, in a party situation, they will be VERY sorely disappointed. Windower macros work well because they go DIRECTLY to ff's console.

G15, on the other hand, can only replicate macros by typing extremely fast, which is a big loss when you're lagging, or you already have something typed. Also, they are MUCH harder to program.

I bought a new keyboard for five dollars! It doesn't have programmable macro keys tho. ; ;

I'd love to hear more from G15 users on how that all works out for them tho. So far what I have heard hasn't been very exciting.

I agree with threadstarter. Changing something so it is easier to see should be considered cheating.

This is my personally opinion...

What's okay to me, Windower the basic form of it. I use it for one reason really. I use to play WoW (God I'm happy I left that) and I made a ton of great friends there. Who of which I all have on MSN or AIM. Now I love FFXI a lot so I play often when I'm on the computer. But that's also the only time I can talk to these friends. I don't have money to buy another computer and I don't think it's far for me to have to do something like that just to talk to friends I've made. So I want to alt-tab to talk to them and play the game. I don't use Windower's Plug-ins because I feel they're exteremly unfair. Even something as basic as the Expwatcher or whatever. I don't need to know how much exp I'm getting per hour, I can make a good feel for how a party is going or not, and mostly if I'm having fun.

I don't need to see people's TP, but I'm too lazy to figure out how to turn it off, besides I'm a white mage so I'm always looking at the HP bars, even when I'm not a healing class. It's a habit I've developed... good or bad.

But to me, I paid for this game and I pay monthly for it. It just doesn't seem fair to me to have to disable the rest of my computer while I play this... Anything else then just Alt-Tab to me... is just over the line, you really don't need it.

P.S. To those of you who don't use even Windower, I applaud you! But I just can't pull myself to cut the only line of communitaction I have to some of my friends.

On the G15 keyboard.

If you use the keys with keybinding in the windower it works exceptionally. I have yet to do anything over 6 lines because that's ethical ground I don't feel ready to tread.

It works like a charm without another program with pretty much anything else though. Nice for RTS where keystroke-hotkey slip-ups can cause troubles.
Plus the LCD is nice, and I found a vana clock plugin for it.

Unfortunately the plugin doesn't work. =/

As far as macros on the PS2 going off faster than on the PC...

I use a keyboard to trigger my macros on both PS2 and PC and I haven't noticed any less lag on the PS2 to be honest. However, I have noticed a faster response when using the controller with the PS2. I tried the PS2 controller on my PC (with Radio Shack's adapter), but it was even slower than the keyboard; the fault is I think my PC's CPU, not necessarily the adapter or controller.

Of course, I'd be happy with a high-res super-fast PC that didn't get any lag even in Besieged, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. I accept the fact that different players have different PCs and different Internet connection speeds. As an analogy, athletes have different DNA (ie hardware) and they train in different ways (ie setting up macros, buying gear) but the rules are the same for everyone (ie stay within ToS). Since FFXI is a game, not an official competition, I realize it's unlikely that everyone will "toe the line". As long as the 3rd-party s/w isn't interfering with others' play or giving an unfair advantage, I think it's ok for a *little* bending of the rules.

the G15 (yes I have one) is a sweet keyboard, but it really will NOT help you in ffxi.


The G15's macro system is fairly clumsy (for ffxi at least), and is very hard to program.

I read that the Keys are just painted and wear out quickly. Meaning that you just kind of have a hazy blue light shining through a spot on your key. Or something. That would suck.

It looks fancy though.

you have to take proper care of the keys, and not be too harsh on them (nails, etc), but it's not that bad.

I do beleive they're just transparent keys painted black (except for the symbol on it), but they last a decent time. I got mine for xmas, and it's still in pretty good shape. my most damaged keys are "," and "." because I typically hit those with my nail, or scrape my nail along them.Even then, the symbols are still readable, and the paint wearing isn't that bad.

if you do own a G15, i'd recommend you take the keys out and wash them everynow and then (and vacuum/wipe the keyboard itself too), to keep it in good condition. Since, in this case, it's actually more worthwhile to clean than to just buy a new one.

This game sucks ass, but with all the work i put in, i dont think i'll be quitting just quite yet. On the other hand, i would of already quit if it wasnt for hacks such as the ones that were previously mantioned. Dont you just love it taking 20min to get from Jeuno to Sky with choco? :D


edit-- and by my random slandering comment about sucking ass, dont think im just going out on a whim here, if you want i can write you a 20 page essay of why FFXI is too bad a game to charge a 12.99 monthly fee. :P

you have to take proper care of the keys, and not be too harsh on them (nails, etc), but it's not that bad.

I do beleive they're just transparent keys painted black (except for the symbol on it), but they last a decent time. I got mine for xmas, and it's still in pretty good shape. my most damaged keys are "," and "." because I typically hit those with my nail, or scrape my nail along them.Even then, the symbols are still readable, and the paint wearing isn't that bad.

if you do own a G15, i'd recommend you take the keys out and wash them everynow and then (and vacuum/wipe the keyboard itself too), to keep it in good condition. Since, in this case, it's actually more worthwhile to clean than to just buy a new one.

All good and solid advice, but and there is a but. Never vacuum something with electronic components on since this creates static discharges and can harm curcuits very very badly.

If you need to dust something with electronic curcuits on just use compressed air in a plastic container since this minimizes static discharges and increase the lifespan of curcuits compared to vacuuming them.

Eh, didn't harm my keyboard, but I kept the tip away from the keyboard.

Eh, didn't harm my keyboard, but I kept the tip away from the keyboard.

ESD Damage (Electric Static Discharge) usually never shows right now, it weakens a curcuit or burns it out completely. If it didn't get fried right away then when currency is fed through it it will continue to weaken more and more until it one day is completely fried.

Most people that says "vacuuming did nothing to my parts" might have been lucky, or the damage is already there but they wont notice it until days, weeks or months later when the curcuits finally give in.

And ESD Damage can never be repaired, it is basically buy new and replace (unless you would like to replace parts o curcuit level).

--- Long post warning! ---

Just have to respond to a few points first, even though it's probably already been said <.< Firstly, I agree with the OP, mods that do not go above or beyond what is avaliable ingame and provide no more than cosmetic changes are acceptable. I draw the line shorter than the following, though: The second is what I think of as "Acceptable" cheats, but cheats nonetheless. These include Ustu counters, Harmless bots(such as SMN skillup bots), Monster Scanners(immitation of Widescan) and under very, very rare circumstances, Draw-in and Position hacking, and ToD counters, and .Dat editing(such as the treasure flags in assault, and removing darters) and Plug-ins. I disagree. These cheats of the .dats are detrimental to other players, especially when competing for coffers or NM spawns. TOD counters again disadvantage other players who could never get as prescise a measure. With widescan, it gains advantages in NM hunting in that others will have to fight the NM with a rng or bst main or sub, whereas you can pick any job combo and retain a core ability these jobs are used for. Even Utsu counters and TP plugins don't directly hinder anyone, yet I find them unacceptable as they do give an advantage, an unfair one if not everyone can have it. I'm not too familiar with draw-in and position hacks, if you mean warp hacks they are squarely on the wrong side of the line, no exceptions. The skillup-bot is no different to a fishing bot. You can't have one without the other. Hey, I just use my fishbot to help cap fishing, not to ruin the economy! What happens when the summoner can solo bcnm's for cash thanks to his bot?

It seems you split the 'Acceptable' and 'Unacceptable' into 'Soft' and 'Hard' cheats respectively. Just because your cheat isn't blatantly ruining someones game doesn't make cheating acceptable. Just because the damage is inderect doesn't mean it doesn't do damage. An example is how does fishbotting hurts anyone else, all it does is bring gil and skillups to the botter, right? Wrong, and you know it. This applies across the board. The main diffrence I feel is that the first two groups, though they can give a small unfair advantage, can be used to help players without ruining the game for others. If you can easily find & outclaim NMs after removing all other mobs in the area through .dat mods and knowing its TOD to the second, all while consistently beating people to coffers etc., you can easily ruin the game for others. Why would you think otherwise?
Now, while I do consider it a violation of the ToS, I choose to overlook it when it comes to friends and such. I value their friendship, and that's more important to me than a matter of moral clarity. I realize that not everyone puts the same value on these things than I do (and certain people put a lot more! ^^), so I just ignore it. There is the letter and the spirit of the law, two very different things. Judges regularly ignore the written law to apply a sense of justice regarding the intention of that law. You should do the same with your friends. If they are merely alt-tabbing, they are just enhancing their game, they are not guilty of cheating. They are still playing a fair and even game. They have broken the letter of the TOS, but not the spirit of the TOS. A fair and impartial judge should find them innocent as well. Just hope they don't get [GM]Dave ^^
They know they have the power to make some very powerful hacks with windower, they know ffxi better than most anyone that didn't make it, and they don't want it to happen. ... Unlimited macros are there to make eq swaps and things such as that possible, not to encourage botting.
I believe this, as windower seems very watered down for its potential. Problem is, other people can write windower plugins too, right? Hell of a lot easier than windower from scratch. They should remove all plugin features if they really want to stop this from happening. Likewise, they should limit macro sizes. While not encouraging bots, they still allow the ability to bot with endless macros. As to how many lines are too many, any that allow unattended behaviour. You don't need to know where to draw the line, it's already there. 8 is too many.

Having windower isn't an issue for me as I have multiple computers. A 2nd hand mac is good for a cheap (I got my G4 for $30) windower replacement. On the plugins, TP view feels to me like sneaking a look at your partners cards in bridge. It just doesn't feel right, though I guess it's borderline acceptable (that damn grey area >.<). Draw distance, if gameplay is unaffected, and IME are the only two plugins I would ever consider using (and cosmetic .dat changes). I can't see why SE would not include at least IME as a feature. Making it look pretty and typing in Japanese are merely enhancments, not cheats.

I understand the ban on windower and alt-tab, I assume it's in place to make cheating both more difficult (that never stops hackers for long though) and easier to identify and stop (which it surely does). Allowing alt-tab would make cheating much harder to identify, and could even make cheats completlely undetectable. Still, windower is also an enhancment not a cheat, and I have no problem with it in essence.

Everything else anyone mentioned should be a bannable offence (http://bannable-offenses.blogspot.com/).

I would love to be able to alt-tab on my PC, but I also have to agree that if it violates the ToS, then it is "wrong," wherein "wrong" is defined by those who wrote the ToS. Probably the best thing to do is lobby for change (not that this will necessarily work with SE). It's like going 15 over in California (most people do), or violating copyright law. You probably won't be prosecuted, but it doesn't mean it can't happen.

This being said, if the ToS did not specifically ban 3rd party addins or alterations to the game, but instead listed specific types of non-contractual modifications or general restrictions on types of modifications, then I would agree that, if a modification does not infringe on another player's ability to play the game (and I would include not putting one player at an advantage over another beyond what is capable through original game modification features), then the modification should be allowed. If a player decides to play entirely by clicking, then I do not expect other players to handicap themselves by not using macros, so that they don't have an advantage over Clickers. Existing mods that I consider as meeting the above requirement are alt-tab mods and IME* mods for PC's (I play on a PC, so I have no reference for consoles). There may be others, but those are two that I would lobby SE to build in to future releases.


* I don't speak Japanese, but I do RWLS Chinese, and it would be nice to respond with some Hanzi (or Kanji) once in a while. Of course, I could just install the Japanese version (right?), but $$$ plus update time are prohibitive.

Double Post Edited:
ESD Damage (Electric Static Discharge) usually never shows right now, it weakens a curcuit or burns it out completely. If it didn't get fried right away then when currency is fed through it it will continue to weaken more and more until it one day is completely fried.

Most people that says "vacuuming did nothing to my parts" might have been lucky, or the damage is already there but they wont notice it until days, weeks or months later when the curcuits finally give in.

And ESD Damage can never be repaired, it is basically buy new and replace (unless you would like to replace parts o curcuit level).



I completely agree with the statements about the dangers of ESD to electronic circuits. However, and here I may get to show my ignorance, I do have a couple of arguments against how much damage could be done to a keyboard by a vacuum cleaner (this sounds ridiculous as I type it).

1) ESD must reach circuit components. Now, as I understand it, ESD is typically considered a discharge from a surface of an electrically charged insulator, such as a plastic vacuum tube, to a sensitive electronic component, e.g. an IC or chip capacitor. For the discharge to occur, the charge must be sufficiently close to an electrical component to "break down" the intermediate material between the charged surface and the component. In most assembled electronics, e.g. a keyboard, the electronic components are insulated from the outside world by a layer of plastic or metal. Though the charge built up on a vacuum is high, I doubt it would discharge through over 1000um of plastic.

2) If ESD were a problem in keyboards - or cell phones, PDA's, PSP's, you get the idea - it would show up long before the vacuum, simply because the most common source of ESD is us! Unless you are playing FFXI in an ESD-safe environment, i.e. your skin and clothes are grounded, you are constantly exposing your keyboard (I hesitate to say internal circuitry) to electrostatic charges built up on your skin and clothing.

All good and solid advice, but and there is a but. Never vacuum something with electronic components on since this creates static discharges and can harm curcuits very very badly.

If you need to dust something with electronic curcuits on just use compressed air in a plastic container since this minimizes static discharges and increase the lifespan of curcuits compared to vacuuming them.

Just wonder how much electrical charge builds up on that long, plastic tube spraying compressed air at your very exposed electronic components...? Based on my understanding of ESD, I wouldn't feel safe using that can near my computer. For that matter, never talk on a cell phone near a computer monitor, or on a dry day (hair builds up a lot of static).

Sorry for getting off topic here, but it seemed important to share...

Why the hell did they get rid of the /pol command for PC? That was really useful to be able to alt-tab out of the game look something up and then get back in with minimum fuss. Now I have to log out of the game completely or dig my laptop out. Are they trying to encourage people to use windowers?

nazl: I'm pretty sure they're withholding MOST of the WindowerHelper (basically plugin maker iirc) features, if not all, or only trusting them to a few people.


Also, about bots.. No offense, but if you seriously try to bot with windower, you're an idiot. I shouldn't say it, but there are much, much, much better programs out there, which are not only easier to use and program, but have more control.

Botting with windower is like cutting your lawn with Lego Mindstorm Robots.

Why the hell did they get rid of the /pol command for PC? That was really useful to be able to alt-tab out of the game look something up and then get back in with minimum fuss. Now I have to log out of the game completely or dig my laptop out. Are they trying to encourage people to use windowers?

/logout does the same thing.

/logout does the same thing.

/pol took you out to POL client temporarily and allowed alt-tabbing to other applications.

/logout just takes you to character select screen in which alt-tabbing is not allowed and will cause POL to terminate due to screen lost.

I don't understand how anybody can use bots, image rendering, etc. etc. How can you live with things that take away the excitement and unpredictability of the game? I play the game the way it is and the way it was meant to be played. Using bots and programs takes away so much value from the game and just destroys it. I don't know if any of you agree with me but I'm going to stick with the TOS and enjoy the game the way it is.

I often turn the clipping plane way down in my settings when in places like Valkurm (since it's laggy enough as it is). It's always funny to see tunnels appear before the landmasses that they are tunneling through.

Hopefully when I get my new video card later this week, I won't have to turn the clipping plane down anymore. We'll see.

Yeah, that's always pretty funny if/when it happens.

I hate to use slippery slope arguements, but in this case, I really think that it applies. What started as "I just want to be able to Alt-Tab the game" has turned into (for a lot of folks, but by no means all) "I just want to see my teammates TP" and "I just want to have something else count my shadows/help me find the sweet spot" or "I just want to have something to help with the boredom of magic skilling", etc.

Right now there is a guy developing (or rather who has developed) a very basic copy of Windower. But there are people bulling him about the fact that "no one" wants something so simple. Except that they do. A program that just allowed me to alt-tab with no other functionality (even if it's functionality that I can easily disable) would be fantastic. Even more fantastic would be SE wising up and just implementing it for themselves.

Agreed.

For me, Windower is just about being able to access other programs w/out having to exit the game. As stated, using Windower for cheats is pretty pathetic. It would seem like any good hacker could use better programs (if he even needs a 3rd-party program). FFXI Windower really gives no edge w/out plugins, just allows us to enter other apps.

the G15 (yes I have one) is a sweet keyboard, but it really will NOT help you in ffxi.


The G15's macro system is fairly clumsy (for ffxi at least), and is very hard to program.

That's like it for any firmware-macro system.

I don't understand how anybody can use bots, image rendering, etc. etc.Uh, so you're saying ffxi should look really shitty? I mean, what do you want, us back in Zelda-land graphics?

I don't understand why the TParty plugin is so frowned upon.

I mean, think about it this way, you can see your party members HP and MP, but you can't see non-party members MP. Why? Because your party members MP is IMPORTANT. It tells you if you can pull or if you should wait. It tells you if you should zone or if you can stand and fight. It tells you that the BLM can't magicburst right now, that the WHM is probably going to drop a heavy cure-nuke when they stand up, that the Red Mage is seconds from Convert and you should brace for some wild hate.

But non-party members MP? Nobody cares. It doesn't affect your party.


I not only believe in the TP plugin 100% as an assistant to backline mages and melee alike, but i beleive it should be implimentted as a game function....you can see your party member's TP.

Alliance....nah, don't care about that. Extra info I don't need.



By saying that "It is cheating for a blackmage to be able to magicburst by not looking at the chat log" is like saying it's cheating for a melee to know to hold off on the skillchian for a few moments while the BLM gets the MP to magicburst, because it's cheating to look at their MP.



And if it's cheating to look at their MP, how is it not cheating for the whitemage ot be able to see all 6 party members HP at the same time, so the WHM knows imemdiately who needs how much HP cured and when?

Why isn't the party list just a group of 6 names with NO OTHER INFORMATION?




You can't tell me I don't cheat when I glance down at the little box of six pink and yellow bars and I don't even bother to target other party members, I go straight for the PLD.

It's kinda sad that most of this could be resolved if they gave PC users the ability to alt+tab. That's all.

Letting us alt+tab would void the "innocent" need for windowers. In turn, downloading any third party software to do anything with the game would be considered a cheat and would have no excuse. It wouldn't be a matter of "I couldn't alt tab and well, this program offers me this on top of alt tab". It'd be "I downloaded this to carry out a specific action against the ToS".

Why is alt tab such an evil thing for SE? Why wont they even try to help PC users in this regard? I play on a PC because I like my PC, not because I want it to play like a PS2. If I wanted a static screen I would have gotten a PS2 version of FFXI. Giving us the ability to alt tab wouldn't hurt them, and it would certainly make the PC community much happier.

Here I wonder: Have people been sending comments to SE urging them to add an alt tab for the PC version? I know I have, but if most people restrict themselves to complaining instead of moving those complaints to SE, it's rather useless. Imagine what would happen if all the PC users send in a comment requesting Alt Tab ability?

Does anyone know why the windower is a problem or just that it is one? Personally, I like to multitask and constantly need to be in reach on irc/aim/msn so I find it hard not to use a windower,,, the plugins however, I can understand why those are frowned upon(except maybe winamp plugin...) and honestly i feel they clutter my screen so I just remove those anyways.. just wondering what the big problem with windower is....

edit-- and by my random slandering comment about sucking ass, dont think im just going out on a whim here, if you want i can write you a 20 page essay of why FFXI is too bad a game to charge a 12.99 monthly fee. :P

Do it, we havn't had one these in a while.

its more of whether its worth it to an individual player than just to you. if someone recieves at least 13 dollars in happiness/enjoyment/whatever theyre seeking from this game then its worth it to them. if they get more then theyre doing good. only when they arent getting what they want from it is it not worth it. so you may have 20 pages why its not worth it to you, someone else may have 20 pages why it is.. my experience from previous games is if you dont like it dont play it

Does anyone know why the windower is a problem or just that it is one? Personally, I like to multitask and constantly need to be in reach on irc/aim/msn so I find it hard not to use a windower,,, the plugins however, I can understand why those are frowned upon(except maybe winamp plugin...) and honestly i feel they clutter my screen so I just remove those anyways.. just wondering what the big problem with windower is....

I think everyone's got their own opinion on that. For me, it's pretty simple. Every time I log on the game, I agree not to use windower, so I don't. I don't like to lie~ ^^

gotcha thanks

I think everyone's got their own opinion on that. For me, it's pretty simple. Every time I log on the game, I agree not to use windower, so I don't. I don't like to lie~ ^^

>.>

<.<

Great, way to point out the flaw in my moral integrity to my conscience.
It's going to eat me alive now.

heh, wouldnt worry about it,, your enot doing anything malicious other than making it easier on you to play the game,, true youre violating the ToS but its like comparing jaywalking to robbery -edit- in reference to windowing only

>.>

<.<

Great, way to point out the flaw in my moral integrity to my conscience.
It's going to eat me alive now.

Heh, no one's asking you to live by my moral compass. I'm just explaining my motivation here. :)

Heh, no one's asking you to live by my moral compass. I'm just explaining my motivation here. :)

Oh, I'm very well aware of that.

My moral compass is similiar to yours in that respect though.

I don't understand why the TParty plugin is so frowned upon.Because it's not something that SE wanted us to be able to see. Why? I don't know. But the fact remains that they didn't. PS2 and 360 players do just fine without seeing other's TP. Why should PC users be special?I not only believe in the TP plugin 100% as an assistant to backline mages and melee alike, but i beleive it should be implimentted as a game function....you can see your party member's TP.I hear you on that. It would totally be handy. But at the current time it's not something sanctioned by SE, and it's not something that console players have access too. Meaning that PC players have a bit of an unfair advantage over them. (BLMs can be ready for a SC, melees no longer feel the need to announce their TP, etc.)By saying that "It is cheating for a blackmage to be able to magicburst by not looking at the chat log" is like saying it's cheating for a melee to know to hold off on the skillchian for a few moments while the BLM gets the MP to magicburst, because it's cheating to look at their MP.It's not the same thing at all, because one of them is a function of the game, and the other one isn't.And if it's cheating to look at their MP, how is it not cheating for the whitemage ot be able to see all 6 party members HP at the same time, so the WHM knows imemdiately who needs how much HP cured and when?It's not. So no worries there.You can't tell me I don't cheat when I glance down at the little box of six pink and yellow bars and I don't even bother to target other party members, I go straight for the PLD.Actually I can tell you that you aren't cheating. You aren't. Because the HP/MP information is information that SE felt it necessary to provide to you. If you played on any of the three systems this game is on, you'd be able to see that information. What you wouldn't be able to see is TP.

This is an example of what I was talking about above. What started as "Well, I think we should be allowed to ALT+TAB!" turns into things like "Well, I think we should be allowed to see TP!" I'm not saying that we shouldn't be allowed to see TP, but I am saying that everyone should be allowed to, not just players on PCs. So I won't use TPParty. Not because it isn't handy - because it really is, but because it's not really fair to my fellow players.

I don't look at the chat log when I MB...

I'm not cheating...

I have it on good authority that Dak = Hak(x). Heck, look at the name! :P

Uh, so you're saying ffxi should look really shitty? I mean, what do you want, us back in Zelda-land graphics?

No, but there are options in the game to up the graphics, refresh rate, resolution, and all that stuff. The graphics on mine look great.

Honestly I wouldn't play FFXI without some way to alt-tab. First, there is just too much dead time. Waiting for a PT, traveling via airship, waiting for NM's to pop, etc.

Secondly, there's not much in-game information. 95% of quests don't tell you what you need to do but instead give some kind of vague hint (you'll be lucky if you get "I heard you might find it somewhere that ghosts and skeletons reside" as a hint to look in the entirety Eldieme Necropolis, for a lvl 35 quest). Frankly I'm not going to log out every time I get a quest and I'm also not going to spend 20+ hours exploring the world to try and figure out how to complete a quest that may be too hard for me anyway and has an unknown reward. I'm also not going to spam Jeuno shout to figure it out.

The only other thing I would really like isn't available anyway, which is to modify the UI size and the number of chat lines displayed (beyond 8).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheat

Windower is cheating, since it breaks the ToS. If you use ANY third-party program, you are cheating.

Of course, you'd probably have to drive under the speed limit to really care.

I think we all know what cheat means..... and I really dont see using windower, only to beable to alttab that is, is cheating

and yeah to the doof with the "FFXI sucks" BS bring it on :p I bet we could shoot down over half of your 20 page paper on why FF sucks :p

heh, wouldnt worry about it,, your enot doing anything malicious other than making it easier on you to play the game,, true youre violating the ToS but its like comparing jaywalking to robbery -edit- in reference to windowing only

HEY GUYS I FOUND A AWAY TO MAKE FAFHOGG CLAIM EASIER !!!

REALLY ???

YEAH ITS CALLED ARGUS.exe !

BUT ISNT THAT CHEATING ???

NO JUST MAKING THE GAME EASIER FOR ME !

HEY GUYS I FOUND A AWAY TO MAKE FAFHOGG CLAIM EASIER !!!

REALLY ???

YEAH ITS CALLED ARGUS.exe !

BUT ISNT THAT CHEATING ???

NO JUST MAKING THE GAME EASIER FOR ME !



clearly you missed the part where i said IN REFERENCE TO WINDOWING ONLY
and by making the game easier i mean making it easier to use the game on your computer, because i didnt build a pc of its calibur so i can only do one thing at a time

NINJA edit ?

BUT ISNT THAT CHEATING ???yes, because you're gaining an advantage over other players.

Windowing isn't an advantage, it's convineance. Fleehacking is advantage. TParty (weither I agree with it or not) is convineance.

Not to split hairs (but I guess that's what I'm doing), TParty is kind of an advantage (if only because it's only available to PC users). I mean, it's a convenient one, but it's advantagey too.

NINJA edit ?

ninja edit on what? i added an extra word in that last post...
btw, its called Windows for a reason

I'm sorry about your keyboard by the way. You can get them for cheap online if you need a new one!

MOB HP % is something that a PS2 XBOX user cant see so you have an advantage over them.
and % does matter when it comes down to see when it will go crazy, or when it will 2hr, or just when its time to throw the last volley of Nukes.
It helps sure, but so does any other cheat.
I know this might not have the biggest effect on the casual player but in endgame it has.
I for myself said that i beat every other FF part without the need of cheats or game enhancment tools so i can beat this one too without it.
I know windower isnt bad but it is waht it is a 3rd party tool and there for an advantage over others.

Double Post Edited:
ninja edit on what? i added an extra word in that last post...
btw, its called Windows for a reason

i feel some negative aura from your side ...

NINJA edit ? = did you add that IN REFERENCE TO WINDOWING ONLY before or after i posted.

i think youre talking about the plugins,, THOSE give an advantage over the others,, just the windower itself gives no advantage other than i can change my playlist or argue on forums without having to logout.. gives me more of an advantage here in the forums than it does in game... if you had actually read the whole thread you would notice my posts supporting windower only and not its plugins
-edit- no when i edit things my post will look like this, that was in the original post, like i said i just had to remove an extra word

Seriously, you can get them for like, five dollars. I know how difficult it has to be not to have a shift key. You don't have to go quietly into the night!

you having a bad day or something ?
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000BLDTAQ.03-ATVPDKIKX0DER._PE13_OU03_SCMZZZZZZZ_V56740728_.jpg

Actually, I meant to say EXPwatch. Wasn't focusing on ffxio.

Been distracted lately.

Actually, I meant to say EXPwatch. Wasn't focusing on ffxio.

Been distracted lately.Yeah, EXPWatch is pretty harmless. If I were a mathematician, or even just better at math than I am, I could figure that stuff myself. Anyone could. Knowing how much EXP per hour or session or whatever you're getting isn't going to tip the scales in your favor or anything.

i dunno if youre referring to me or murphie,,, he just doesnt see the need for all caps and neither do i,, as for me im just presenting my argument for the windower, as youre presenting yours

you having a bad day or something ?
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000BLDTAQ.03-ATVPDKIKX0DER._PE13_OU03_SCMZZZZZZZ_V56740728_.jpg Is that for him or me?

I'm still trying to justify the price of a G15. If I eventually do, it will be good times around my house.

Actually, that wasn't for one person. I just figured your keyboard was broken since you type in all lower-case except when you have the caps lock key pressed. And you use no punctuation. Since I wouldn't want to assume that you are incapable of writing like a normal human being, I just figured that you had a broken keyboard. And I can totally feel that, you know? I've been there. But it's ok! You can do something about it.

the all caps was to show its sarcasm ... i would have added some l33t speach but i thought that would be to much of the good ... and you figure anyways

and i think you both having a bad day since you spread a very negative aura >>

the all caps was to show its sarcasm ... i would have added some l33t speach but i thought that would be to much of the good ... and you figure anyways

and i think you both having a bad day since you spread a very negative aura >>I'm sorry. My aura gets very negative when I'm forced to read dreck like this.

DUDE it glows in the d4rkz.

Did you just used the word dreck ?

no negativity here,.. no aura either, these are forums. only thing i can really have is tone =)

-edit- glow in the dark keyboards annoy me :(

DUDE it glows in the d4rkz.

Did you just used the word dreck ?I do like things that glow. But seriously, I got this new keyboard for $5 at Newegg and it's awesome. So until it starts to break (which could happen in a week and I wouldn't care, because - $5) I'll just stay with it.

And I totally did. It's early, I tend to be a bit odd pre-coffee.

um how much does thing cost in US $ ?
i payed 75€ for it which is like 90USD

i always wonderd why you guys use words like Dreck and über ><

-edit-blue lights shine out of the gaps which is actually pretty cool ... it also has a LCD display with various plugins to download ... even vana'timer 0.0

I don't use words like uber very often (I am far too tired for umlauts this morning). But dreck? Occasionally, as circumstances warrant.

It ranges from $75-$100 or so, depending on where you look. So, pretty comparable to what you paid.

I do like things that glow. But seriously, I got this new keyboard for $5 at Newegg and it's awesome. So until it starts to break (which could happen in a week and I wouldn't care, because - $5) I'll just stay with it.

And I totally did. It's early, I tend to be a bit odd pre-coffee.

I'm a newegg.com shopper.... which keyboard did you get?

http://www.hori.jp/us/products/vdck/image/front.jpg
there you dont need the keyboard anymore =p

The G15 doesn't glow in the dark.


It has a backlight, not glow in the dark. Glow in the dark is crappy.


And Ael, here's a reason for you to get a G15: All the cool kids have them.

And by all, I mean me.


And by cool, I mean geek.

Double Post Edited:
BY the way soonk, the Vana'clock isn't that great (although the sounds are relaxing), and the G15 plugin for vana'clock doesn't work anyway.

The G15 doesn't glow in the dark.


It has a backlight, not glow in the dark. Glow in the dark is crappy.


And Ael, here's a reason for you to get a G15: All the cool kids have them.

And by all, I mean me.


And by cool, I mean geek.

im sorry for stating this incorrectly due to my limited english skills, please forgive me

-edit- @soonk that thing is ugly as shit tho...
-edit- @feba works fine for me

i wasnt really suggesting that clock haha thats just too much and hardly worth 50 dollars
-edit- haha i know it is isnt it,, i notice you like my method of editing =D

after this complete derail i say +10 pages !

-edit- OH SNAP ! when start using that ",," i just quit --

I'm a newegg.com shopper.... which keyboard did you get?This one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823107120).

And hey, they have a fancy version (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823107123) for $6.25!

I'm seriously tempted to buy a few more just in case they stop carrying it.

Feba: I like your logic! I just might buy one now. :)

more than likely,, all thanks to me using the windower(otherwise id be stuck ingame)

-edit- dude screw punctuation,, ",," ftw

This one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823107120).

And hey, they have a fancy version (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823107123) for $6.25!

I'm seriously tempted to buy a few more just in case they stop carrying it.

Feba: I like your logic! I just might buy one now. :)

that keyboard looks like its gonna explode if i smash on it because i lost claim @ullikumi

i rather stay with quality that doesnt brake when i hit it once xD

-edit- Posting in a Legendary Thread
-edit- lol i might use some of my forum money and make this thread sticky

Dude, it's five dollars. If it breaks, you just buy a new one!

Thankfully, I'm really kind to my keyboards (I don't think I've ever smashed anything because of something in-game), so it's not really a concern. Plus, even if I did break it...five dollars!

thats a meal, buddy
-edit- wow i just died cuz i forgot i was ingame haha,, not only that i leveled down :/ this better become a sticky after that

I'm not sure that this thread is really all that legendary.

Umm, yeah. 2+ pages of random banter?
Sorry guys, atleast try to make an attempt at the topic.

it will be soon ... take a look at Soonks title
-edit- we talking legit about the new g15 keyboard
-edit2- it kinda derailed i guess...
-edit3- i did by changing your title

Umm, yeah. 2+ pages of random banter?
Sorry guys, atleast try to make an attempt at the topic.Sorry. It was originally about cheating, I swear. Back on topic from here on out.

i fail to see how rai owned me,, anyways, windower is not a cheat, the plugins are. at the most its a hack, which is not the same but equally against the tos. its a moral call on this one

Oh, and the topic of windower being considered a cheat has been discussed to death. I'd find the previous thread(s), but its late and I'm exhausted.
My view: Yes the windower is technically a violation of the ToS. That being said, I've never told anyone not to use it. I don't personally feel the standalone windower gives an advantage to a PC user. Those who play on PS2 and 360 (and don't use dial-up) can still play on the tv and use their computer to look up stuff and in general surf the internet. It does get shady, as was previously noted, when you start adding all the plug-ins. I think the real reason TParty isn't already in the game from SE is because they want this to be so much of a party based experience that they want you to communicate and work together.
Anyway, as a Mod, I really can't condone the use of the windower, but I won't tell you that you're going to hell for using it either. Also, I'm sure you all know this, and I didn't seen any links when I skimmed through most of the early parts of the thread, but please don't link the windower, ffxiassist, or anything else that violates the ToS.

As for the thread Sevenpoint was referencing when he started this thread, I'm not sure about .dat editing for an advantage on finding coffers and the like. Yes, it does make the coffer infinitely easier to ID from across the room, but I measured it out last night, and it comes out to around 7 paces b/w npc draw distance and targetable distance. Considering when I first get to a new area and I'm looking for coffers, I generally just spam [tab] until I hit something. There is an advantage there, but it is rather slight. Seems to me to just be lazy to go through the task of changing the coffer dat just so you can notice a coffer a second earlier.
(I do suppose there is a slightly greater advantage in places like GC where there are coffers you cant target or normally see until you'r right on top of them.

Considering when I first get to a new area and I'm looking for coffers, I generally just spam [tab] until I hit something. There is an advantage there, but it is rather slight. Seems to me to just be lazy to go through the task of changing the coffer dat just so you can notice a coffer a second earlier.
(I do suppose there is a slightly greater advantage in places like GC where there are coffers you cant target or normally see until you'r right on top of them.I do the same thing. It's a very rare situation when I find a coffer or chest visually before having already discovered it via tabbing. Generally that's only when I'm not actually looking for one.

IMHO SE have created a problem for themselves.

By not allowing the game to window legitimately, functionality that if legal just about every PC user would want, they've pushed a lot of people into becoming outlaws. Problem is once you are an outlaw doing other illeagal things seems much more doable. You become blase' about TPparty (which despite being fairly non-offensive, does give an (admittedly slim) advantage) about distance measures, about other of the less offensive tweaks.

Basically theres two different lines being drawn, the TOS which draws the line of when you are cheating or not, and the general concensus of what should be allowed. Generaly speaking rules should mirror the concesus otherwise people lose respect for the rules (see alcohol prohibition). If FFXI was naturally windowable, yes it would make some hacks marginaly easier to use, but most are easy enough to use currently with or without windower (note this seems to be the only justifcation SE can use as to why it's not naturally windowable), but it would for most people have removed the need to use anything third party at all. 90%+ of people whould be happily obaying the TOS while you would be free to clamp down on the few percent that weren't, with no ill feeling from the majority of the player base. Even if they banninated people using TParty the majority wouldn't care, as they would be on the opposite side of the rules line. Less people would feel comfortable cheating (according to the rules) if it was closer to what they felt was fair.

The actual reason why Windowed mode is banned is that there's a item duping cheat that is accessed via the clock. And SE know it.

They feel that making Windowed mode open, more people would use the cheat... which they probably are correct in assuming.

The fact that their coding is so piss poor to allow such flagrant cheating to go on - is an admission they probably don't want to make known.

The actual reason why Windowed mode is banned is that there's a item duping cheat that is accessed via the clock. And SE know it.

They feel that making Windowed mode open, more people would use the cheat... which they probably are correct in assuming.

The fact that their coding is so piss poor to allow such flagrant cheating to go on - is an admission they probably don't want to make known.

and theres the answer i was looking for =)

that keyboard looks like its gonna explode if i smash on it because i lost claim @ullikumi

i rather stay with quality that doesnt brake when i hit it once xD

-edit- Posting in a Legendary Thread
-edit- lol i might use some of my forum money and make this thread sticky


just because its $5 does not mean it was poorly made, I have 2 $5 keyboards that I have had for about 2 years, and they both owrk fine

Double Post Edited:
The actual reason why Windowed mode is banned is that there's a item duping cheat that is accessed via the clock. And SE know it.

They feel that making Windowed mode open, more people would use the cheat... which they probably are correct in assuming.

The fact that their coding is so piss poor to allow such flagrant cheating to go on - is an admission they probably don't want to make known.


SEs programing is not piss poor -.- The game was made for PS2 first, then ported over to PC, and they made it Fullscreen only so the experiance would be the same as PS2 (yeah mistake) but doing that lead to problems that they did not care about to much because you could not window it anyway (originaly)

Windower is ok to use, but remove all the plugins first

Ok fanboi - I'm going to be nice now.. be hushed about things you haven't the faintest clue about. You can be dangerous with your "Oooh, I did my fishbotting for two days"... some of us, actually have done things which we regret knowing about.. because if we know about them... many more people are using them, nonstop.

Square has never been very good at porting it's games... FFVII was the first abhorrent port, FFVIII was an improvement, and FFXI has more holes in it than a sieve.

As the PS2 version does as well, but taking apart a PS2 and rewriting small files is a little harder to do than on the PC, but no impossible.

And no - it's not because of the fullscreen mode giving a better experience.. it's because at port conversions - SE fails, and knowing the right settings for how to adjust your clock allows for at minimum, super fast movement and 0 delay attacks, at it's most abused, item duping, 100% HQ synthing, 0 material cost synthing, item duping, etc...

Just from using the clock. Let alone using other outside modifications. Everything that can be done on the PC works on the PS2 as well, it's just harder to do. Poor coding. I know that's a bitter pill to swallow Kailea, but your hero's don't code brilliantly. They make good games, but easily abusable ones (tying most about everything to your internal clock is one of them).

Spinnthrift has a point, anyone with a windower and a properly functioning copy of windows can make their own speedhack, although it's fairly inconsistant, it's somewhat like making dynamite with baking powder and chives. Too easy, too common. I'm sure a lot of people here already know how it's done.

I also heard that Sony forced SE to make it fullscreen so they'd keep supporting PS2 and HDD, but obviously sony dropped that.

Ok fanboi - I'm going to be nice now.. be hushed about things you haven't the faintest clue about. You can be dangerous with your "Oooh, I did my fishbotting for two days"... some of us, actually have done things which we regret knowing about.. because if we know about them... many more people are using them, nonstop.

Square has never been very good at porting it's games... FFVII was the first abhorrent port, FFVIII was an improvement, and FFXI has more holes in it than a sieve.

As the PS2 version does as well, but taking apart a PS2 and rewriting small files is a little harder to do than on the PC, but no impossible.

And no - it's not because of the fullscreen mode giving a better experience.. it's because at port conversions - SE fails, and knowing the right settings for how to adjust your clock allows for at minimum, super fast movement and 0 delay attacks, at it's most abused, item duping, 100% HQ synthing, 0 material cost synthing, item duping, etc...

Just from using the clock. Let alone using other outside modifications. Everything that can be done on the PC works on the PS2 as well, it's just harder to do. Poor coding. I know that's a bitter pill to swallow Kailea, but your hero's don't code brilliantly. They make good games, but easily abusable ones (tying most about everything to your internal clock is one of them).

you can post without insulting me you know, and like I have said before, I am not a fanboy -.- that word is so over used anyway, evey time someone does not agree with someone else, that word is thrown around.

and yeah FFXI being fullscreen only was done deliberatly to keep both PS2 and PC experiances the same, it was not due to poor programming

It was due to poor programming.

Square have always been poor at writing ports. If you'd played FFVII and realised that they basically wrote a PS Emulator for the PC version of it, you'd understand.

All of the basic hacks, mods, cheats etc you can do on the PC, you can do on the PS2 (assuming you have the knowledge of how to tinker with a PS2 - like people do with PC's). Down to the letter. Your average PC MMO won't have the same flagrant holes in it, because they'd be expecting the basic issues that people try and cheat with, and that would be easy to cheat on a system.

Straight port, poor programming...

Do I need to explain more, down to the nth degree of how specific things work and don't work - or are you going to accept that SE's programming for a port is shoddy.

Full screen mode is one thing - a program that crashes when it loses focus to a virus checker. Poor programming.

You want to keep defending them, or do I need to highlight the inadequacies of your hero's some more? Or will you accept that the design of FFXI for the PC was a shoddy port that had limited thought put into the functionality of it and it's use within an operating system?

And no - the term isn't bandied around for everyone.. it's saved for special people who clearly are.

you can post without insulting me you know, and like I have said before, I am not a fanboy -.- that word is so over used anyway, evey time someone does not agree with someone else, that word is thrown around.

and yeah FFXI being fullscreen only was done deliberatly to keep both PS2 and PC experiances the same, it was not due to poor programming

No, every time somebody disagrees with you, that word gets thrown around.

FFVII was the first abhorrent port, FFVIII was an improvement,

This point caught my eye and made me curious. Having played both on PC, I don't see what is abhorrent or abhorrent improved about either game. They seem to play fine, and have for years.

I'm not challenging you, just on a practical level I'm not seeing much of what you're saying.

didn't one (or both) of them have no way to exit the game other than alt-f4/ctrl-alt-del? something i remember reading at the time. Would hardly be the toughest thing in the world to add an option on the menu screen to exit program, but even that was neglected. Not the end of the world sure, but not a 'nice' port either.

laziness i tell ya

This point caught my eye and made me curious. Having played both on PC, I don't see what is abhorrent or abhorrent improved about either game. They seem to play fine, and have for years.

I'm not challenging you, just on a practical level I'm not seeing much of what you're saying.

I don't know if you remember... but FFVII came on many disks... many more than the PS version.

First disk was the backbone to a PS emulator, and a software synthesiser (Yamaha something), as the music wouldn't play properly iirc.

You needed a monstrous PC at the time to play it in full screen mode, else it played at a godawful speed... and when it was released, while not top of the range, my PC at the time handled near everything else perfectly - because you were running a PSone emulator on your PC.

FFVIII was a better port, but still not good.

I forgot about those Ickle... so so true.

I don't know if you remember... but FFVII came on many disks... many more than the PS version.

First disk was the backbone to a PS emulator, and a software synthesiser (Yamaha something), as the music wouldn't play properly iirc.

You needed a monstrous PC at the time to play it in full screen mode, else it played at a godawful speed... and when it was released, while not top of the range, my PC at the time handled near everything else perfectly - because you were running a PSone emulator on your PC.

FFVIII was a better port, but still not good.

I forgot about those Ickle... so so true.FF8 was ported in exactly the same manner. They both had one extra disk for the Windows specific stuff. That software synth was the standard way of playing MIDI before Creative Labs became dominant. It was supported on more hardware then anything else.

Both had a way to exit the game

Mhurron is right - they did have an exit, but it was clunky/janky at best.

Square never has gotten along with Windows well to be fair. It makes amazing games, but they've never settled well within the PC OS's.

Console's - different kettle of fish entirely.

yeah I remember FFVII and FFVIII they where ported pretty bady -.-

and yeah FFXI for PC was just basicly a port from PS2, but really, the whole point of multi system release, was their "same experiance" idea, and is why there really is not alot of grpahic options for PC version

I still dont understand why you sit here, and bitch and moan and complain about things that are normal for other games, every game will have some glitches and holes in programing, why single FFXI out of it all. I am not a fanboy of SE, I just find all this pointless bitching to be anoying. This thread started out as a simple "cheating" thread, and some of you ahve turned it into a "lets bitch about SE" thread

lol it always happens with this topic, :P Really the thread was only started for the benifit of one other person who I think only asked 'cause they were interested in my perspective (which I claimed was rather off).

Its kind of amusing considering every is saying what is cheating and what isn't, or its all a tos violation so its all cheating.

As the OP, let me clarify for subsequent posts - the conversation was meant to be a discussion on what people think draws the line of -cheating- (which -I- am defining as gaining an unfair advantage - nothing more). Has nothing to do whether or not something is a contract breach (ToS violation).

Anyhow. I done chuckling.

lol it always happens with this topic, :P Really the thread was only started for the benifit of one other person who I think only asked 'cause they were interested in my perspective (which I claimed was rather off).

Its kind of amusing considering every is saying what is cheating and what isn't, or its all a tos violation so its all cheating.

As the OP, let me clarify for subsequent posts - the conversation was meant to be a discussion on what people think draws the line of -cheating- (which -I- am defining as gaining an unfair advantage - nothing more). Has nothing to do whether or not something is a contract breach (ToS violation).

Anyhow. I done chuckling.


I agree with ya here, as long as you are not gaining an unfair advantage, I dont see it as cheating, honestly that is how I saw fishbotting when I tried it way back then, because I never left the PC, I just started it kicked back and had a soda while watching TV. The only thing I really took out of fishing at the time for me, was not havieng to rehit my macro ^.^ but like I said, only did it for 2 days, then saw what trouble it was couseing, and stopped

I agree with ya here, as long as you are not gaining an unfair advantage, I dont see it as cheating, honestly that is how I saw fishbotting when I tried it way back then, because I never left the PC, I just started it kicked back and had a soda while watching TV. The only thing I really took out of fishing at the time for me, was not havieng to rehit my macro ^.^ but like I said, only did it for 2 days, then saw what trouble it was couseing, and stopped

I'm sorry this is extremely off-topic. But Kailea your Avatar is really really cute! Did you make it yourself or did you find it somewhere, and if so where? I'd love to have one like that for me and my bf. ^^

FFXI's graphics aren't limited because they wanted it to be "equal", they're limited because they're lazy and don't want to do extra work on PC. FFXI dats are crummy because we have to share with PS2 graphics, because SE doesn't want to do the extra work.


FFXI is poorly programmed, that's just a fact. There's NO reason a game should have to dominate full screen, there's no reason it should use as much processor power as it can, even when it doesn't need it.


Taken from Cliff of Archbell (windower makers)Interestingly, one of the most simple things I could do (in terms of time required) would be to write a private server base for FFXI. Turns out, though, that this is rather stupid. FFXI is incredibly static, moreso than any other online game in existence, and you wouldn't be able to change the game at all. At most, you could tweak monster stats, and change what people say. But quests? static mobs/npcs in a zone? Items, doors, etc? The zone layout itself? It's all completely static and would require massively complicated client side changes to change anything. So basically, you'd be able to recreate FFXI as it is, with all its flaws. Don't kid yourself into thinking you could make it less laggy or anything. The reason for the lag and problems is completely due to fucking ridiculous clientside and network code.

For instance, they use UDP for essentially all communication with a zone server. For those who don't know, UDP is a network protocol where an individual message is not guaranteed to reach its destination. So with normal UDP if something like an outgoing chat message packet gets dropped, it just disappears forever. Most people who use UDP add Some sort of reliability mechanism, either in the form of a separate TCP channel (which is guaranteed), or via some sort of manual check system to ensure that all packets are sent properly.

Guess how SE does it? They just send "important" messages TWICE. (in the hopes that at least one will get through). Yeah, that's a good way to write network code. Where do these people learn to write this shit? Apparently the same place the network developers did for PSO. This sort of horrific protocol is representative of how the entire game is written. Don't even get me started on how they botched their encryption protocol. I'll only say one thing about it: Electronic Codebook for a STREAM, and with a broken algorithm on top of that. Jesus fucking christ.Considering that they've pretty much taken FFXI apart by now, they know what they're talking about.


Really, ffxi is shoddy programming, and a crappy port. It's not "Equalism", it's "Laziness" and "stupidity".

All I can say is it works fine for me, I have had few issues with it, it's a reliable source of fun, and I couldn't care less about the technicalities.

It may be programmed horribly from a technical standpoint, but it's working fine for me. The only reason I could see someone really complaining about it is out of some desire to self-pleasure themselves with how much they know about programming and how they could have done it better.

I'm just saying that SEs programing is not piss poor -.- The game was made for PS2 first, then ported over to PC, and they made it Fullscreen only so the experiance would be the same as PS2 (yeah mistake) *is* wrong, and it does come off as very "fanboi"ish.

Oh, I wasn't trying to make it sound like people were "self-pleasuring" themselves around here, I understand it's pretty much a statement of facts.

You don't seem like you're "really complaining" about it.

Well, personally, I don't give a rats ass if people .dat swap for "pretties" and "shinies" because ultimately I don't care if I run around in a little pink tutu on