Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

[Feba]

Pt1 (locked) here: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/general.ffxi.discussion/58191-greivances.list.html
Added the spoiler, and decided I am not going to bother contacting all the PTs with sellers people. I have changed the old sig I had on allak to direct people here, and had 2 JPs on the list from a misunderstanding that were removed this week. So if people whose native language is not english can contact me and take care of stuff with the current way I handle things, I do not see a problem.



As posted by RD on page 9 of The List.


I would be content to keep it to PMs, but since it seems no one cares to respond to those, there's not much of a choice but to bring public opinion back into it.

He has NOT kept his end of the already slim bargain up, in making sure that no innocents were placed on the list. The fact that they were removed is not a sign that the list works, it's a sign that they shouldn't have been there in the first place. He's condemning people based on his own beliefs and not any proof.

How did they find out? They're japanese, if they were put on it mistakingly they wouldn't have found out unless a friend told them, or the very unlikely circumstance they're reading an NA ffxi forum.

What would've happened if they hadn't found out? if the list was working as intended, they would've been locked out of the community, if the list is a waste of space, it's just causing flamewars and wasting time and bandwidth here.

This is very disturbing, what if you had been placed on a list "By Mistake", and people started MPKing you and blacklisting you for it? Even if just for a month. And do you think you can make up that damage by a small note on the nth page of a thread saying "whoops"? That's not gonna make people take you off their blist, especially since the names weren't even listed. Not even an apology was given.

[Mog]

ok, here's my two-cents on the issue.

Nobody should accuse anybody based on the fact that they heard somebody is selling gil. That's hear-say. What you do need is concrete evidence: a picture, a chat log, anything, that proves that the said person is guilty of real money trading. However, while it's true that you shouldn't add someone to the list if one person said it, if there's more than one person who can second the opinion, I believe that it's rightful to put the said person on the list.

If there are random people in "The List" thread saying: "Add this guy, he was doing something fishy" or "Add this guy, he was camping a NM a lot", they shouldn't be added to the list. That alone does not constiute a fair argument.

I personally don't know even half the people who have been added to the list of gilsellers. However, I joined the game about 9 months ago, so I'm not even sure if what he's saying is true. Maybe half of the people on the list are innocent. Who knows? Runningdemon doesn't seem to have concrete evidence on who and who not is a gilseller (except for Zuzupetals, which I agree with), so even I am skeptical on who sells gil or not. Unless people present me with concrete evidence, I won't believe them unless it's a general consensus that somebody sells gil.

By the way, this thread will get closed soon, so talk as much as you want before it happens.

[Feba]

And obviously, if an innocent was placed on the list, the evidence was either falsified, or wasn't very solid to begin with.

[Mog]

And obviously, if an innocent was placed on the list, the evidence was either falsified, or wasn't very solid to begin with.

Yes, I agree. The more innocent people that they discover, the less solid the entire list is.

That's a lot of people on the list, and other than the Zuzupetal link, I don't know what to make of the rest of the people on the list.

[RunningDemon]

The reason 2 said JPs were added was because as since I have been soloing THF in Qufim lately, it appears some RMTs just sit out and cure people for some reason. That is what the person reporting them said was happening, he thought it was a PL.

And I removed them once the problem was discoved. My checks and balances work. If you think there are any wrong names on list, you can PM me for a WP and go look for yourself.

[Spinnthrift]

Feba, just be glad that the innocents weren't English, and were probably only minimally affected by RD's pranking.

It probably did reaffirm a few stereotypes and has probably zoomed around every JP forum about it...

'RD falsely accuses people of being JP! I mean RMT!!!"

A lot said the list had problems, and the attitude of come and speak to me, and we'll resolve it, it arrogant BS. It's his list and *HIS* owness to be right.

Glad to see it though. ^^

[Feba]

My checks and balances workThen how did they get on the list in the first place?


Even if they were taken off, that does not excuse you from PUTTING INNOCENTS ON THE LIST in the first place.


Not to mention you didn't even list their names so people could take them off their personal blists, which means they could still very well be hurt by the list.

[Shopee]

So what are the consequences of being on this list? MPK? /blist? Libel?

This will probably be closed soon, but I think that it's important, as a community issue, for it to be discussed by the community. Orchestrating that via PMs would be difficult.

If this doesn't devolve into a flame war, maybe we could hold a discussion for a reasonable period of time (although I have a suspicion no one will be budging).

Could you disclose your system of checks and balances? What is your routine when dealing with this list? What is acceptable evidence for placing people on it?

If anything we need to know exactly how the policy works to discuss it.

[Feba]

Originally it was "Feel free to MPK them and make their lives hell", although RD removed it, that's still the point.



It also has the fun penalty for NOT using it in the form of the PT with (people RD says are) gilsellers list.

Double Post Edited:
Oh, people assisting gilsellers still have a comment saying "give 'em hell".

[Spinnthrift]

MPK, Blacklist, and being added to anyone who's stupid enough to believe it's lists of do not invite to endgame community.

Hence why I said it's probably a good thing they weren't NA.

It's not even like they've had an apology for being falsely accused of being RMT or their aides.

There's a huge difference between healing random people and teaching RMT how to access Sky/Sea/etc... but in RD's list... there isn't.

I wonder how many people are on the list who shouldn't have been there in the first place.

p.s.

The checks and balances would be working when innocent people weren't added to the list. Any cries of McArthy so far have been utterly founded and you've now lost much credibility by your attitude.

[Mhurron]

So what are the consequences of being on this list? MPK? /blist? Libel?You're labeled a gilseller or someone who assists gilsellers.

sit out and cure people for some reason. That is what the person reporting them said was happening, he thought it was a PL.Thank god you're taking a stand against kindness, or are PL's against your rules?

[Shopee]

THE CHECK AND BALANCES WOULD BE WORKING... IF THEY WEREN'T PUT ON THE LIST IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU DUMB MCARTHY.

I know I'm not a mod, but please, if you want to be able to discuss this, let's not resort to insults like that. I understand you probably feel strongly, and I understand why you do, but there is no point getting worked up.

If you really feel the need to get it out, do it via PM or something.

[Feba]

McCarthy is a fitting term here, as is dumb, but you shouldn't include the dumb part, if we want this thread to live.

[Spinnthrift]

Amended...

However - doesn't change the fact that RD is an FFXI McArthy. He got it wrong, and his attitude instead of being one of showing apology to the people who were MISTAKENLY added to the list of harassment, one that displayed contempt for non english speakers.

[Taskmage]

Regarding the issue of mistakes, no system of evidence is perfect. Obviously punishing innocent people should be avoided, but if one or two innocent people bearing undue suffering were enough to throw the entire method out, no country in the world would have a justice system. If the margin of error was disturbingly high then something would bear examining, but in this case it was only two people whose situations were quickly rectified.

There is no requirement that no innocent people be placed on the list, in fact it was pretty much assumed that mistakes would happen. It was only requested that evidence be kept on hand for new additions and for disputes regarding specific objections to be handled with the person in question. Here is the original "bargain" PM for reference:Ok, but I have one request for you, Please, PLEASE be sure you get hard evidence of the people on list and keep them filed, or post screen shots. (New additions or edits) One thing that worries me is the problem when we assume, (I'm sure you'll assume), that if someone, ACCIDENTALLY joins a party who are full of gil sellers, but the person didn't know any better about them. Probably thought they were just regular party or find out that they were actually partied with gil sellers after the party is over...

Most likely there will be such people, and get listed in your list. If someone clearly comes in to our forums and state their facts please be sure to talk it over with them in civil manner.

Perhaps come up with a disclaimer note and ask for users to PM you about false information that might be in the list. Pretty much keep things handled as best as you can.

That's all I ask of you for that list. I'll go ahead and unlock it first thing in the morning. Please do your best to keep the thread as civil as possible. If things do get out of hand, It'll be closed and moved to our archive.

As for the forum request, it will be done. Your contributions are welcome. And I truly appreciate your helping. It's just that controversial subjects tend to get a lot more attention and careful moderation on this forum.

Thanks

-PiNGAs for the thread being a waste of space or bandwidth or whatnot, that point is rather moot. If we were interested in policing value at that level, the entire General Topics and Extra Activities sections would likely not exist.

[Rodin]

Don't forget Off Topics section, or this post right here! :o

[RunningDemon]

/em cracks knuckles.

K, time to respond to you all.:evil:



1. Regarding the names that were removed for wrongful identifiaction by RMT curing random people in their free time:

You see RMT curing people, and assume PL. What other assumption could come to your head. Now the JPs weren't pissed about it after we talked, but apparrently Feba the voice of reason is. The names of the JPs are:

Noriri
Chocola
Above 2 are a RL couple, below 2 were in the original report and removed as well.
Benzie
Liku


2. Regarding what exactly happens after you are placed on the List for any reason:

Am I forcing everyone on Seraph to read this? No. Are there hoards of people from Seraph coming to this forum carrying torches wanting to kill me for adding a million innocents to this list? No. Are the mast majority of those complaining people who just like to voice their opinion and even though they feel strongly enough to argue endlessly, they refuse to go get a WP that I can supply on demand and go get proof against me? Yes.

I do not make people /blist anyone. I do not make people MPK anyone, nevermind the fact the only place you can MPK anymore is on sky triggers that RMT bot 24/7 (but yet Feba still brings up my love for MPK, and while I have MPKed my share of RMT in the day, it is only possible in sky or on Pallas/Citipati anymore).

3. Regarding my checks and balances:

No one has been refused removal from list. There have been 6 names taken off over the time the list has existed. One name had the unfortunate luck to make his name _money and was assumed to be part of the RMT crew, but was resolved and removed. One on the PTs with sellers list admitted he was wrong and was removed. The 2 JPs contacted me and were removed, as well as the 2 other names that were reported in that incident.

People are given this site to come and plead their case. I recently added another to the PTs with sellers today if you go check my last post in the thread, and he will more likely than not be coming to apologize today, since those I knew in his LS made him leave the PT once they heard what was going on. If JPs can contact me, other people can too. You guys like to compare this with the american justice system, I can do that too. We both can make mistakes, but admit it when we go and rectify it. So stop saying my checks are flawed, they do their job, and unless you want to go get a WP and try to dig up someone to complain, I don't really care.


4. In regards to Spinnthrift's assertation that I have no differentiation on the list:

There are 3 groups there. 1. RMT, 2. PT with RMT, and 3. Pantheon at the top. The Pantheon are those who PT with RMT for NM drops and helped them to sky and showed them some of the ropes to farming triggers and killing gods.


And to Spinn, I at no point displayed contempt to non-NAs and am offended you think I may have. Did you talk to the JPs? No. I talked to them, they hate RMT as much as me and like the list. They explained what happened and were removed. I at no point have ever made any discriminatory remark as you insinuate.









So, in closing. Go get a WP and head to Seraph and find proof against me, or get off your high horse and stop making arguements based on 'what ifs' and get hard proof like I have.

[Feba]

Obviously punishing innocent people should be avoided, but if one or two innocent people bearing undue suffering were enough to throw the entire method out, no country in the world would have a justice system.There's a big difference between an authority enforcing laws to the best of their ability, and a vigilante who's basically encouraging stoning RMT.

[Spinnthrift]

Taskmage... I'd almost agree if the whole attitude wasn't so arrogant.

Two people get added... and they aren't *publicly* apologised to, when they are *publicly* shamed, accused, added to the list of harassment.

It's followed up with - people of other languages can contact me and do it my way to be removed - yet, how exactly will these speakers of foreign tongue know?

Most people do not have issue with a list of gilsellers... people do have issue with others being added to the list of shame, because with good nature they acted in kindness and were added.

And that's what I have a problem with.

When the world becomes so hostile, that you can't show a moment's kindness for fear of a RD(McArthy) retaliatory strike... you know something has gone wrong.

And part of that "List" isn't all that far from that road.

R.D:

Checks and balances should be there to stop people getting wrongly accused. Your abscence of being able to check and balance this shows precisely that... I don't need to take a WP and work my way through and ask people: Hey, you happy being on someone's list of shame, because - blatantly, you've not done that yourself. Else the names wouldn't be cropping up.

So, get down from your mount, because you aren't skilled enough to ride it.

[Feba]

RD, your "OMG WP OR STFU" case is getting very old. You've given NO good reason why we would need to be on Seraph, and until you do, you can stop posting that. It just makes you look silly.


Am I forcing everyone on Seraph to read this? Yes you are. You're forcing them to either:
Beleive your list, or
Be put on it.
but yet Feba still brings up my love for MPK, and while I have MPKed my share of RMT in the day, it is only possible in sky or on Pallas/Citipati anymoreValid as it is, I haven't brought up your love of MPK in this thread, only that you encourage MPK. And, regardless of weither it's possible or not, doesn't make it any less wrong.

If JPs can contact me, other people can too. JPs who were lucky enough to learn of/find The List. If none of your friends use ffxi forums (and trust me, quite a few don't), you don't yourself, and the only reference you have is some weird person in another language threatening you which you probably forgot about, what then?

[RunningDemon]

If you would read th original allakhazam thread, each name on the PTs with sellers list that does not have screenshots on this site has times and dates of when they PTed with the sellers. You apparently do not understand what the PTs with RMT list entails by your moment's kindness comment. The PTs with RMT list is added when people PT with RMT. Also, what retaliatory strike? Where is it said that I have a stranglehold on the entire Seraph server? Where is it said that everyone on Seraph uses this list? This list is used by who knows how many people, but at no point do I ever have any power to make people read this, or go around spamming the website in /sh in Jeuno. You can go ask random people on Seraph, I bet 75% don't even know who I am.

[Feba]

PTs with rmt: Cole - June 24th 7:36PM


Look! A DATE AND A TIME! RD PTs with RMT omg!

[RunningDemon]

RD, your "OMG WP OR STFU" case is getting very old. You've given NO good reason why we would need to be on Seraph, and until you do, you can stop posting that. It just makes you look silly.



As is your belief that you know everything about our server and are the moral authority here. You are just someone who likes to argue any point you take, however misguided it may be into the ground, never giving any ground or admitting you may be wrong. You have done NOTHING to back up anything you have said Feba, if I have so many innocents on this list, since you as a Saint can tell from your server, then it should be easy work to discredit me.

I have screenshots for all PTs with sellers added since the list moved here. I am the one with hard proof, where is yours?


And Spinn, I see RMT curing people for no reason and assume they are PLing RMT, guilty as charged. I get a warm feeling inside when I see them rank6 with Serket Breaker title a month later.

Double Post Edited:
Feba, are you trying to get yourself banned here or something?

[Taskmage]

There's a big difference between an authority enforcing laws to the best of their ability, and a vigilante who's basically encouraging stoning RMT.In, for example, the United States justice system, the power and authority to enforce laws exists only with the consent and support of the people who it affects. Only that makes it official. The Seraph RMT list is the same, only lacking in organization to enforce consistency and self-regulation. Without supporting Seraph citizens there would be no punishment, and the list would have no effect. For all we know that is the case. The difference between the two is in scale and organization.

[Feba]

By hard proof, you mean your own opinions about who is a seller and who is not.

As is your belief that you know everything about our server and are the moral authority here. Tell me where i've claimed to know everything about your server.

You are just someone who likes to argue any point you take, however misguided it may be into the ground, never giving any ground or admitting you may be wrong. Hey Pot...

You have done NOTHING to back up anything you have said Feba, if I have so many innocents on this list, since you as a Saint can tell from your server, then it should be easy work to discredit me.Tell me what I have to back up, and I will..

[Spinnthrift]

It's people like you who've accused me of things as well, when I earned my titles - and assumed me to be one.

Really - you're in the wrong. You still haven't apologised. And to be honest.. I don't see any reason to try and disprove your list... I'm too busy reporting and trying to set up RMT LS's with GM's when they warp and claim hack mobs.

I know some RMT on my server... but I wouldn't glorify myself as an authority on them. Because chances are - one day I'd be wrong, and would have caused unnecessary harm to someone who didn't speak English. And that - would be a real crime.

Something you've not gotten round to understanding, nor would I ever believe it possible with you.

[Feba]

yes, a government only gets it's power from the people who support it.


in this case, SE is the government of Seraph server. Along with every other server.


RD is acting in very shady areas of the "law" (SE's ToS), and forcing his own brand of "Justice", which makes him a vigilante, as he has no form of support from the government(SE).

[RunningDemon]

Tell me what I have to back up, and I will..

Go find someone on the RMT list, go to Seraph. Follow that person and ask endgame people about them.




Spinn, the RMTs on the list were all tracked from RMT crews that existed for the last 2 years. Those that are seen with the Linkpearl on are guilty as sin. The only chance for error is when they are PLing new people as happened with the JPs and was fixed.

[Taskmage]

If he enforces anything it's only through the support of the people on Seraph. That was my point. No one is made to do anything.

[Feba]

Go find someone on the RMT list, go to Seraph. Follow that person and ask endgame people about them. Oh.... so I have to back up YOUR list and not anything of my own? Thanks for reinforcing the fact that the main argument for the list is flinging random things at anyone who disagrees with it.

Lago: Yes, they are. They're made to either follow the list, or be submitted to it, either as RMT themselves, or PTs with RMT. Either way, SE does not sanction RD's actions, thus he has no official control. Unless he and his supporters plan to overthrow SE's control of Seraph and claim it as theirs.

[RunningDemon]

Tell me what I have to back up, and I will..


Oh.... so I have to back up YOUR list and not anything of my own? Thanks for reinforcing the fact that the main argument for the list is flinging random things at anyone who disagrees with it.


I believe that sound was anyone caring what you say going out the door. I have proof posted. You can gather proof to the contrary easily, yet refuse to do so, even after :

Tell me what I have to back up, and I will..

You just like to argue morals and what ifs Feba. And I for one am not going to argue the same points with you over and over again as we are on the 4th go around this time. You have made no new points. You have refused to budge and been yelled at by admins for various reasons. I have made changes for the masses and yet you, the one who says I am the one that refused to do anything for proof and such, you have done nothing to discredit me.

You asked what you wanted me to have you back up, I said a name from the RMT list. You quickly withdrew and argued. You are nothing but a forum flamer who likes to argue any and everything.

Until you do something new, I am not responding to you. The rest of you can post and I will respond, but I am done with Feba until he makes a new point.

[Shopee]

If he enforces anything it's only through the support of the people on Seraph. That was my point. No one is made to do anything.

Agreed.

No one is made to do anything. Only the people can enforce the policy, sure.

Here's the issue: Just because the people do something does not make it a just action, even in the case of government. Just because The players of Seraph choose to follow the list does not make it a legitimate decision.

Furthermore, if the list DOES have innocents or does not provide proper and sufficient evidence for its accusations it is essentially falsifying information to the people of Seraph. Justice is supposed to be blind, but not that sort of blind. Those people then choose to act, justly or not.

So that brings us back to the root question: How reliable is 'the list'. If it is unjust and unreliable then it is not justified, whether the people of Seraph choose to think so or not, thus making vigilante action unjustified.

You just like to argue morals and what ifs Feba.

Hypotheticals and morals can be essential to arguing points of principle, and principle as much as practice is an issue here.

Ignoring that means that you are beating a cowardly retreat. You know that chances are no one will go through your entire list and check each and every person out.

[RunningDemon]

Agreed.

No one is made to do anything. Only the people can enforce the policy, sure.

Here's the issue: Just because the people do something does not make it a just action, even in the case of government. Just because The players of Seraph choose to follow the list does not make it a legitimate decision.

Furthermore, if the list DOES have innocents or does not provide proper and sufficient evidence for its accusations it is essentially falsifying information to the people of Seraph. Justice is supposed to be blind, but not that sort of blind. Those people then choose to act, justly or not.

So that brings us back to the root question: How reliable is 'the list'. If it is unjust and unreliable then it is not justified, whether the people of Seraph choose to think so or not, thus making vigilante action unjustified.


How reliable is it? There have been 4 names taken off the RMT list in about a year and a half, or however long it has been. There have been no complaints from anyone on Seraph about the names on the RMT list besides that 1 instance. I think 1 error in a year+ is good service.

How reliable is the PTs with sellers? I personally stand by all names from allakhazam and the times/dates given there. And going with the wishes of this site, those who were added after the move here have screenshots, and are 100% accurate.

[Taskmage]

What is he forcing them to do exactly? He has no power to make them disband or stop whatever activity to follow the list, nor does he have any power to make others act on the list to give those on it anything to submit to. Anyone who does either is acting solely of their on volition, thus nothing is actually enforced.

RD's relationship or lack thereof is a moot point. If SE disapproves of his actions or the actions of those who might follow him they will act to stop him. I don't see the point of the arguement other than possibly that you took my comparision to justice systems too far. I wasn't meaning to say that RD's actions are as good as being official. You drew a line between legislated justice institutions and vigiantism based on authority, while I pointed out that in both cases power and authority come only from the consent of supporting constituents.

[RunningDemon]

Hypotheticals and morals can be essential to arguing points of principle, and principle as much as practice is an issue here.

Ignoring that means that you are beating a cowardly retreat. You know that chances are no one will go through your entire list and check each and every person out.

I am offended by this. I have given proof over and over again. Feba has done nothing but argue his ideas and do nothing to back them up. I have given WPs to people who wanted to check things. I personally stand by EVERY name on the RMT list. I have my proof, my proof is seeing them at NM camps over and over again. If you cannot take my word and the word of those who posted in the original thread here and on allakhazam, go get your own proof against me. 10 people saying they see someone rob a bank is good enough to get someone convicted, why is everyone saying these are RMT any different.

[Shopee]

How reliable is it? There have been 4 names taken off the RMT list in about a year and a half, or however long it has been. There have been no complaints from anyone on Seraph about the names on the RMT list besides that 1 instance. I think 1 error in a year+ is good service.

How reliable is the PTs with sellers? I personally stand by all names from allakhazam and the times/dates given there. And going with the wishes of this site, those who were added after the move here have screenshots, and are 100% accurate.

And how many of those people have seen the list? Can you guaruntee them a voice?

Not with this system. You have no possible way of knowing how much of that was because people didn't know they were on the list and we have no way of knowing how many pleas you might have ignored. The workings of accusation are still far too centralized, and appeals aren't checked by anything except your own decisions.

If you cannot take my word and the word of those who posted in the original thread here and on allakhazam, go get your own proof against me.

But if your system is inherently flawed morally then whether they are RMT or not is not at all relevant. You still have to answer to whether or not this vigilante justice is in fact justice at all.

[Taskmage]

Agreed.

No one is made to do anything. Only the people can enforce the policy, sure.

Here's the issue: Just because the people do something does not make it a just action, even in the case of government. Just because The players of Seraph choose to follow the list does not make it a legitimate decision.

Furthermore, if the list DOES have innocents or does not provide proper and sufficient evidence for its accusations it is essentially falsifying information to the people of Seraph. Justice is supposed to be blind, but not that sort of blind. Those people then choose to act, justly or not.

So that brings us back to the root question: How reliable is 'the list'. If it is unjust and unreliable then it is not justified, whether the people of Seraph choose to think so or not, thus making vigilante action unjustified.I think the root question as far as this thread is concerned is whether the thread The List deserves to exist if its accuracy isn't perfect. I don't think it is right to disqualify its validity based on being imperfect. Perfection is too much to be asked for.

I do agree that its power and justice are based on its reliability, however I think the only people that are qualified to determine how reliable it is are those familiar with the people in question, that is the people of Seraph.

[RunningDemon]

So if you are right, I am an evil bastard ringleadering the greatest FFXI consiracy ever.

And morally flawed? You are saying that listing those who PT and aid RMT is morally flawed? Maybe in your head, but I see a very fine line between RMT and those who help them. The line is so small, I consider them on the same level of scum. So where is the moral flaw? You think helping RMT level, or using them to level is right and acceptable? That is the only thing I can come up with to back up your morally flawwed comment.

[Mhurron]

I think the root question as far as this thread is concerned is whether the thread The List deserves to exist if its accuracy isn't perfect. I don't think it is right to disqualify its validity based on being imperfect.It didn't deserve to exist because passing any judgment intended to influence the actions of others is beyond any players purview.

If SE disapproves of his actions or the actions of those who might follow him they will act to stop himThen report him to a GM, or get in contact with a GM and see what happens when SE is made aware of what he is doing.

[Taskmage]

It didn't deserve to exist because passing any judgment intended to influence the actions of others is beyond any players purview.In the broadest interpretation that would make the discussion of subjob merits and strategy considerations verboten. Even under the strictest interpretation that would make it wrong for me to say the name of the great tank I had last night. Is it only right to speak what I believe to be the truth if it benefits the people involved?

As to the calling a GM thing, that's perfectly within anyone's rights or abilities.

[RunningDemon]

So someone cannot post a good players thread, or scammers thread either, by your reasoning. Heck, by that reasoning, these whole forums should be shut down. You are forming opinions about people by what they post, so how is that any different than forming opinions based on actions people took in the past.

And calling SE, might as well remove and linkshell websites or crafter lists or game guides too. They might bad mouth someone.



People, welcome to the real world, not everyone is nice, and yes, we have free speech. As soon as you get over your political correctness and moral high ground, we can get down to business with actual proof. I have provided proof for the list, no one has done so against.

[Shopee]

As soon as you get over your political correctness and moral high ground, we can get down to business with actual proof.

Getting down from the moral high ground might not be necessary, thus avoiding ever needing proof.

This is obviously something you wish to avoid, exemplified by your uncalled for distaste for any sort of moral discussion.

So if you are right, I am an evil bastard ringleadering the greatest FFXI consiracy ever.

There is no reason to hyperbolize what I've said into that sort of an accusation.

And morally flawed? You are saying that listing those who PT and aid RMT is morally flawed?

To use your own words, welcome to the real world.
Your actions will have consequences. You intend for the list to be used, so don't resort to nonsense doe-eye arguments like this, where all you're doing is making a list. You are attemtping to influence people otherwise you would have no reason to compile such a list.

So where is the moral flaw? You think helping RMT level, or using them to level is right and acceptable?

If someone murdered, would it be in your place to form a lynch mob and kill him?

[Mhurron]

So someone cannot post a good players thread, or scammers thread either, by your reasoning. Heck, by that reasoning, these whole forums should be shut down. You are forming opinions about people by what they post, so how is that any different than forming opinions based on actions people took in the past.Personal opinions are your right.

This however:
The Pantheon of Scum (give 'em hell boys)
People who party with gil sellers, and refuse to disband once knowing their members are sellers, or just plain don't care if they party with sellers or not.

Is not a personal opinion.

[RunningDemon]

Depends on situation.


And when child mollesters have to let people know they are in the neighborhood, do you have a problem with that?


Yes, I intend the list to be used and wish everyone did. And to use my own arguement you tried to turn against me. This is the real world, people argue all the time. And there is such a thing as free speech and libel. The people wronged on my list can come to talk to me if they want to pursue a libel charge against me. Otherwise, this is free speech, and I am obeying the rules by the admins here, and have not had an ounce of evidence discrediting me posted yet. The List functions as it says it does, go read the OP again if you cannot understand that.


And in regards to a moral discussion. My morals are on record as such: RMT are scum. Those who knowingly PT with them for personal exp gain are a ladder rung below. Those who PT with them for NM drops and gil are a rung above the RMT themselves. I do not regard any of the 3 groups as legitimate players and will blackball them in endgame or any game event to the best of my ability.

Double Post Edited:
The Pantheon of Scum are the ones who split gil drops on sky gods and other NMs with sellers and helped them learn sky.

And I cannot state facts? It is wrong to state the names of people helping RMT? Guess it is wrong for newspapers to publish names about anything, hurray for censorship.

[Shopee]

Depends on situation.


And when child mollesters have to let people know they are in the neighborhood, do you have a problem with that?


Who enforces that?
Does the enforcer encourage people to beat up the molester too?

This is the real world, people argue all the time.

Great.

This makes your list moral how? All you have stated is these things happen in the real world.
Related to the discussion that's completely irrelevant. People also steal in the real world. You wouldn't justify stealing in game based on that, now would you?

And in regards to a moral discussion. My morals are on record as such: RMT are scum. Those who knowingly PT with them for personal exp gain are a ladder rung below. Those who PT with them for NM drops and gil are a rung above the RMT themselves. I do not regard any of the 3 groups as legitimate players and will blackball them in endgame or any game event to the best of my ability.

You fail to justify vigilante action on moral grounds there. That is the hole I see and unless you can come up with a reason as to why vigilante action is justified, it will remain.

[Mhurron]

In the broadest interpretation that would make the discussion of subjob merits and strategy considerations verboten. Even under the strictest interpretation that would make it wrong for me to say the name of the great tank I had last night.Have you ever had a bad tank said your opinion?

Have you ever had a bad tank then turned around and told people to "Give them hell?"

Have you contacted others who are parting with him and demanded they disband or you will end their endgame prospects?

One of those actions is within your rights of having an opinion and voicing it. The other two are not.

I bet you could find something I have said that you don't agree with, and I could do the same for things you have said. Do I now have the right to advocate trying to ruin your gaming experience over it, or you to do the same thing to me?

[RunningDemon]

I believe it is law that child mollesters have to inform those in the neighborhood.


Morals aside, The List is a collection of facts. If something looks like a dog, sounds like a dog, smells like a dog, and lives in a pack of dogs, it's a dog. That is where the RMT part of the list came from and needs no defending ever. If I want to list names of those who help them out knowingly, where is it wrong? I tell them that I will do it and how to get removed from the list and give them a chance to change their ways. You bring up stealing as a RL comparision, fine, I can run with that. What do people and the police think of someone who buys a gun for someone knowing they will probably use it to commit armed robbery?


And what vigilante action do you people think I commit here? All I do myself is update the list, and do my best to keep scum out of whatever LS I am in. I don't run around making people harass those on the list, I don't tell people where the list is, I don't even talk to those on the list after the initial conversation.

And why is it justified? Simple, because SE does nothing to combat RMT besides banning the banks twice a year.

Double Post Edited:
Have you ever had a bad tank said your opinion?

Have you ever had a bad tank then turned around and told people to "Give them hell?"

Have you contacted others who are parting with him and demanded they disband or you will end their endgame prospects?

One of those actions is within your rights of having an opinion and voicing it. The other two are not.

I bet you could find something I have said that you don't agree with, and I could do the same for things you have said. Do I now have the right to advocate trying to ruin your gaming experience over it, or you to do the same thing to me?


And I only contact those PTing with RMT. You are saying spreading that someone is RMT is equal to saying someone is a crappy tank, which is completely unrealistic.

[Shopee]

I believe it is law that child mollesters have to inform those in the neighborhood.

I will ask again:

Who enforces that.


Morals aside, The List is a collection of facts. If something looks like a dog, sounds like a dog, smells like a dog, and lives in a pack of dogs, it's a dog. That is where the RMT part of the list came from and needs no defending ever. If I want to list names of those who help them out knowingly, where is it wrong?

Shameless doe-eying again. You didn't make the list to make the list, you made it so people could ACT on the information. Your motives are as much a part of this as your actions.

I tell them that I will do it and how to get removed from the list and give them a chance to change their ways.

Tell them when you initially converse with them. Contact each and everyone and tell them, via auto-translate if necessary, that they are being put on a public list as Gilsellers or whatever else you classify them as. Tell them what web address and tell them that it is very possible they will be MPKed, harrassed or blacklisted as consequence.

You bring up stealing as a RL comparision, fine, I can run with that. What do people and the police think of someone who buys a gun for someone knowing they will probably use it to commit armed robbery?

Probably nothing great.
They don't harrass them though. They don't beat them up. Furthermore, the police arrest the person ONLY upon committing the armed robbery and ONLY with evidence proven in a court of law, a court of law NOT governed by a single individual either, mind you. Furthermore they are provided with legal representation.


And why is it justified? Simple, because SE does nothing to combat RMT besides banning the banks twice a year


So you regularly take action when the police don't in real life too?

[RunningDemon]

I will ask again:

Who enforces that.


I believe law enforcement of some kind does, don't know what that has to do with anything.



Shameless doe-eying again. You didn't make the list to make the list, you made it so people could ACT on the information. Your motives are as much a part of this as your actions.



Tell them when you initially converse with them. Contact each and everyone and tell them, via auto-translate if necessary, that they are being put on a public list as Gilsellers or whatever else you classify them as. Tell them what web address and tell them that it is very possible they will be MPKed, harrassed or blacklisted as consequence.



Yes, I did make this list so people who believe as I do can use it. And I do inform them, if you would bother to do any research or read something besides this. Hell, the last post in the original thread has a screenshot of me doing it.




And for everything else, you brought up the RL crap not me. I do nothing besides list them. If keeping a list of people who do something is wrong, then call me guilty. Here in the real world, people can sit and watch for people running traffic lights and note their license plates if they want, it is called free speech.

I at no point try to make anyone do as I do regarding this list. You on the other hand are trying to make everyone believe as you do and belittling them in the process, which is what you say I am doing.

And yeah, if I see someone running out of a store stealing something, I'd trip them up or something, which is what this equates to, stopping a minor crime. The better way to combat the minor crime is for people not to commit the crime in the first place.

[Danicus]

Doesn't suprise me that Feba started this crap again, he was a troll on Alla, and he's doing it here as well. I wish I could /blist him here so I don't have to see the same old crap he spews all the time.

I use this list so I don't assist any RMT in anyway within my power. That means no raises, no tele's, no PT's, NOTHING.

I guess you could say, I'm the guy (among many) who enforces this list via exclusion. I don't harass anyone, I don't hack them, I don't rip them off - I just avoid them.

It's only non-Seraph people have a problem with this (mostly Feba's rabid obsession). The rest of us on the server know EXACTLY the crap these RMT's do, who they are, and have no stomach for helping them in anyway.

The List is here to stay, why can't you just get over it and stay out of Seraph's Forums?

[Shopee]

I believe law enforcement of some kind does, don't know what that has to do with anything.

The fact that you don't see the relevance indicates the issue. Somehow you don't distinguish what


Yes, I did make this list so people who believe as I do can use it. And I do inform them, if you would bother to do any research or read something besides this. Hell, the last post in the original thread has a screenshot of me doing it.

Then I apologize. Looking at your original thread (with the List) I did not catch this particular clause.

Here in the real world, people can sit and watch for people running traffic lights and note their license plates if they want, it is called free speech.

So they can report them to the proper authorities.

You on the other hand are trying to make everyone believe as you do and belittling them in the process, which is what you say I am doing.

I have belittled nothing except for your arguments.

Furthermore, at this point I believe nothing except that you should buckle up and be ready to address moral concerns. You'll notice I have yet to argue that the list is actually immoral.


And yeah, if I see someone running out of a store stealing something, I'd trip them up or something, which is what this equates to, stopping a minor crime. The better way to combat the minor crime is for people not to commit the crime in the first place.


Tripping isn't illegal, MPKing is (by the ToS)

[RunningDemon]

MPKing is also a unicorn unless you are in sky anymore.


And I have stated my moral standing on this already, so what moral arguement is there for me to argue on? People who help RMT are scum and should be known as such. I don't see an arguement there unless you advocate helping RMT to further your own levling and damning endgame in the process.

[Murphie]

There is an ignore function on these forums. If you don't want to see someone's posts, then you can ignore them and problem solved!

EDIT: This was in reply to Danicus's post saying he wished there was a blacklist function on the forums.

[Tatha-Kitten]

why is this still goin on?

It's pretty clear to me that he didn't make the list to be JUST a list, if he did, he wouldn't have posted it here, it would be for personal use only. Secondly, he uses people using RMT for personal exp as areason for getting on the list.

erm... isn't that what we do to NORMAL players aswell? use them for personal exp gain? hell, you sit there for hours waiting for someone to invite you to a party just to get exp, you don't care who it is as long as the gain is there, and most people bitch and/or leave a party that doesn't have the desired gain.

Where is the proof of the people who have partied with RMT outside of a time and date that could easily be falsified.

heck, i'll label myself one shall i?

Name: Tatha. seller name: irtehgilsellerlols. time and date: 15th july 2006 12:06 GMT.

i haven't been playing for over 2 weeks now, but according to the information i just gave, yesterday i partied with a gil seller. and since it says it right there, it MUST be true. /sarcasm off.

i don't think anyone has a problem of a list of gil sellers, that isn't the problem at all. The problem is the intent that caused this list to be made HERE, and the language used giving permission to MPK and generally harass these people, regardless of them being a seller, or someoen who spend 30 minutes getting exp and then leaving because it wasn't all that great.

You can't count these people in the same league. So they should not be in the same listing.

you keep screaming about the oodles of proof about these people, i've looked at your list, most of them have no screenshots attached and that in my mind makes the whole thing unreliable. the fact that you cannot provide the proof you claim to have.

I think that is what Feba wants also. He wants your 'concrete' evidence.

Post it here, end this trife and utter bullshit right now. Your failure to do so so far has only proven to cause more trouble for you.

but i digress, honestly, who CARES if someone partied with a gilseller, who gives a fuck about the date and time? (pardon my language but it was necessary for impact of tyhe sentence. mods can alter and i will give no hassle.)
Your list, however you intended it, has a negetive impact, and it IS a vigilante action, the police do not release lists of known criminals, they keep it archived so SANCTIONED law enforcers can act upon it in a way that is APPROVED by the GOVERNMENT. notice that you are not sanctioned by square enix to write a list of RMT's, nor are you approved to release that information to the people in order to incite hatred toward them.

Which, was your intent, you want people to hate the names on that list. don't try to say otherwise, if you do, your list has no point, and should be removed right away.

[Shopee]

The List is here to stay, why can't you just get over it and stay out of Seraph's Forums?

This is "General FF XI Discussion".

I haven't touched your forums (except perhaps to read The List post)

[RunningDemon]

Are you on Seraph, do you know our RMT? No, so then you cannot comment on that part of the list. And since the move here there has been proof for all added to the PTs with RMT part. The proof is there, if you continue to ignore it, good for you, you are making yourself look foolish.

And if your morals allow you to PT wtih RMT to get exp, you should not have a problem with people knowing you do. If you do something in RL, you should not have a problem with people knowing about it, it is called responsibility for your own actions.

[ValisOfValefor]

It's only non-Seraph people have a problem with this (mostly Feba's rabid obsession).

DagneyD

Elured

Atleast two people on that thread from Seraph who object

(One who wants the entire thing removed, the other who wants the pts with gilseller removed, and feels its unethical)

[RunningDemon]

And they want removed for moral reasons, not because they have been wronged.

[Tatha-Kitten]

Are you on Seraph, do you know our RMT? No, so then you cannot comment on that part of the list. And since the move here there has been proof for all added to the PTs with RMT part. The proof is there, if you continue to ignore it, good for you, you are making yourself look foolish.

And if your morals allow you to PT wtih RMT to get exp, you should not have a problem with people knowing you do. If you do something in RL, you should not have a problem with people knowing about it, it is called responsibility for your own actions.

when did i ask you to bitch in my post? i didn't.

i did however ask you to post your proof, the ones that have no attached screenshots should either have the screenshots added, or be removed from the list. Should you gain evidence at a later time, you can put them back on and no-one will have a problem with that.

and again, i state you are NOT a GM. so you are NOT a SANCTIONED law enforcer of FFXI, and therefore you list should not have been made in the first place. police databases are not public domain, the GMs do mroe work to better the community than your list does, for a start, they made it so people like you couldn't mpk and ruin innocent people's playing life.

this i do admit, also stops you harrassing and MPKing rmt's, but you're pretty inventive, you couldn't hit them directly anymore, so you made a list. bravo, such a mature person you are. you lost your way of attacking them and made another one.

[RunningDemon]

The whole point most people still seem to be making is that I am irreparably harming innocents. This idea is completely ficticious and if keeping a list of names is wrong, all crafting registries or server LS lists should be removed from this forum as well. If we regulate one type of free speech, where does it end? I provide proof as asked by admins of wherever the list is at the time. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them, have them ask me for more proof.

Double Post Edited:
To Tatha:

When your name is PiNG, I will post the proof you want. Until then, I am doing as the admins of this site ask.



Oh, and this list was around long before the BST-Nerf, hurray for one more person not doing any research and making assumptions about things they know nothing about.

[Tatha-Kitten]

a list of recipes is different, that's to help the players, YOUR list on the other hand is to condemn people.

you also completely ignored an important part of the arguement EVERY time it is mentioned.

DATES CAN BE FALSIFIED.

your entire 'parties with gilsellers' list could be fake, we don't know otherwise, a court of law would not condemn a person because person A said they saw Person B do grievance C. that would be laughed out of the court faster than you can say 'i'm a retard with bum evidence' and any lawyer would agree with that.

[RunningDemon]

Am I forcing you to read it? Does it affect you in any way? Have I ever told a person on the list who was wronged to get bent?

No. No. And if I did I am a master forum haxxor because I have hacked and edited posts here and on allakhazam without being caught.

You say my evidence is crap, go get your own against me or go hang with Feba in the pissing and moaning and not actaully doing anything lounge.

[Shopee]

And they want removed for moral reasons, not because they have been wronged.

And these are illegitimate reasons?

[Tatha-Kitten]

and again your defense is 'am i forcing you to read it?'

no, you aren't. but once i did, i disagreed with it, my disagreement is being voiced and reasons given. that's the free speech thign you keep mentioning, aint it a bitch?

give me a reason why if i am not forced to read it, those who have ARE being told to believe it or go to hell?

[Shopee]

give me a reason why if i am not forced to read it, those who have ARE being told to believe it or go to hell?

Or to gather evidence that those people aren't and never were in fact gilsellers.

I'm still trying to figure out how the heck you would do that.

[RunningDemon]

You are complaining about something that will never affect you and wanting things changed to reflect your personal beliefs all in the name of free speech.

You cannot make someone believe anything, if you could there would be a lot less KKK members and hate in this world. All anyone can do is put stuff out there and let people make their own opinions. If you want to censor this, where does it end, what else negative lists will you want next? Free speech means it is free. Everything I list has the proof asked for my the owners and admins of the site they are on.

If you have a problem with that, stop reading it or go use another site. And yes, them asking for it's removal on there own moral beliefs is wrong. I do not ask everyone on my server to go read and abide by this list, but yet they are viewed as in the right to force their beliefs on me.

[Tatha-Kitten]

To Tatha:

When your name is PiNG, I will post the proof you want. Until then, I am doing as the admins of this site ask.

I was being reasonable in providing you with a decent way of fixing this crap.

you say that you have proof of ALL people on the list, and yet unless FORCED by a moderator, you won't post it. even though you already agreed with ping that you would provide this evidence.

I believe that's breaking your agreement is it not?

[RunningDemon]

give me a reason why if i am not forced to read it, those who have ARE being told to believe it or go to hell?


Where do I say that? The only ones I tell they have to trust me are those from other servers who refuse to go check things themselves.

And i still fail to see how you can argue that listing people who help RMT is morally wrong, they are helping those who break the ToS every day.

[Tatha-Kitten]

they are helping those who break the ToS every day.

so are people who play with people who use windower, your point is?

[RunningDemon]

I was being reasonable in providing you with a decent way of fixing this crap.

you say that you have proof of ALL people on the list, and yet unless FORCED by a moderator, you won't post it. even though you already agreed with ping that you would provide this evidence.

I believe that's breaking your agreement is it not?

If you had read the previous posts and threads, the agreement for allakhazam was them taking my word and needing dates. The agreement with the admins here was anything new in the PTs with RMT list must have a screenshot, which I have done.

Any additional proof would involve me taking time in game to make you people happy, and since I really don't give a damn about making you happy, I decide to play the game and have fun instead.

[Shopee]

And yes, them asking for it's removal on there own moral beliefs is wrong.

But you encouraging others to make hell for anyone you list based on your moral beliefs isn't?

Your moral beliefs are as much in play here as anyone elses.

In fact, you are trying to force your moral belief in free speech on people as much as they are trying to force their moral belief on vigilantism on you.

Any action you make is somehow affecting others, this is you asserting your ideas, morals or other beliefs on other people. Everyone does it, and it is impossible to avoid, so you are no more innocent of it than anyone else.


Any additional proof would involve me taking time in game


So you don't care if you act justly, you just want to shove your moral ideals into the face of supposed RMTers.

[RunningDemon]

So your whole problem with it is 'Give 'em hell'? If I removed that, it would make you stop argueing?


Well tough, it isn't gonna happen.

Double Post Edited:
And for my reluctance to track down everyone on this list, if you care so damn much and doubt the lists that much, go check it yourself. I enjoy this game and doing clerical work that will still not make you people happy is not my idea of fun.

[Shopee]

go check it yourself.

It is near impossible to prove that someone was never a gilseller without a time machine.

It is not, however, impossible to prove that someone is a gilseller by providing more evidence.


doing clerical work that will still not make you people happy is not my idea of fun.

Then you obviously aren't responsible enough to handle a makeshift justice system. (This was directed at the implication that you won't do it, not that it isn't your idea of fun. I wouldn't think you'd need to enjoy it)

You are not taking responsibility for the verity of your information.

[RunningDemon]

The evidence is good enough for the admins here who I answer too. Now any argueing with the RMT part of the list is just plain stupid since even those on Seraph who hate the rest of the list do not disagree with the RMT part.

[Shopee]

The evidence is good enough for the admins here who I answer too.

And on this note, I will end simply by saying:

You have proven by stating that you simply cannot be bothered to gather sufficient evidence that you care less about fairness and more about your personal disgust towards RMT.

[RunningDemon]

I have sufficient evidence. Endgame people know the RMT and can track them, a point you fail to comprehend since NO ONE is argueing with that part of the list.

[DakAttack]

Feba just couldn't kick his trolling habits.

[RunningDemon]

And with this latest round of repetition past us, I am gonna go to sleep. Will respond tomorrow afternoon.

[Tatha-Kitten]

i'm going to make a few quotations now, of your recent exploits with no proof, as taken directly from your list. Note, they are only posts made by YOU, and not other people, though there are a few who's evidence doesn't look like evidence to me.

they are in reverse order, starting with the most recent. i will also give a link to the psot the lack of evidence was found (or not as the case may be) in.

Yesterday, 10:48 PM Link to post (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/608718-post175.html) - New RMT: Lgirry, Sejnus though i applaud your taking time to post the conversation with Yaknor, you failed completely to give evidence of the two new RMT.

Yesterday, 9:27 PM Link to post (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/608704-post173.html) - Some new galka RMT NIN, Pristinepup? (sp) is being PLed along in normal PTs by Maurrine as I found while leveling my THF today. Tell your friends and ruin their PTs and keep a look out to warn those who decide to PT with him. absolutely no proof given at all. bravo.

07-02-2006, 05:15 AM Link to post (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/601252-post148.html) - Let's see, RMT at behemoth today:

Toobooo
Rulers
Edisen
Scroiilock
Gimya
Magicangel
Huullahaha
Bingxin
Yuyminmin

Double Post Edited:
Anlisa too

Double Post Edited:
Jackson too

Double Post Edited:
Heroe
Hainan

Double Post Edited:
Smallbeauty

Double Post Edited:
Was a busy Behie night, let me get some more names. No RMT claim though^^

Was NQ anyway :p again! no evidence of said incident or of supposed RMT.

05-31-2006, 12:08 AM Link to post (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/581465-post52.html) - I talked to Knivesout, will update list tomorrow. Looks legit, the guy is an idiot. He couldn't even understand that I was not accusing him of gil buying or selling, and that I was just putting him on a list for helping GS. this evidence was never posted. (this was your response to This post (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/581303-post49.html) . agreed Danicus provided a screenshot, but you failed to prove you talked to him as you said you had.

and from there it is mostly other people posting, however, if you linked the posts to the names on the list, it would probably help your case as far as proof goes, alot of people don't read the entire thread and would miss those you have 'fairly' accused. Although some of the shots people have posted are not worth the time it took to make them.

[Feba]

You have made no new points. You have refused to budge and been yelled at by admins for various reasons. As said before, "Hey Pot".



And I suppose I am a troll, in some respects. People calling me troll are hypocrites though, so it doesn't really matter. Troll is a matter of perspective, in most cases. RD could be considered a troll. It's all dependant on who's doing the judging, just like the list.


Sorry for not keeping up on this thread, I went to see a movie. I'll keep watching from this point though. Won't respond to RD unless he makes a new point, however.

[Shopee]

Add Susanly.

Last time I saw her (last week) she was in Beadeaux. Three days ago she was in Castle O. Now she's back in Beadeaux.

Post 4

Whited out Pictures as evidence

Post 9

Also Matolo, Darkboy and, Dorran are in the ls "Special" or something like that, pretty sure thats right though.

Post 38

"Submitting Amikk as a gilseller suspect.

Saw him/her in the B.Glacier with Joyfullbamboo, Agarok, Dashoubil, and Maogel. It appeared that everyone was auto following Agarok, including Amikk.

They also had a new LS, neon sky blue in color, name FriendsOfVanadiel."



Post 53



The following were being PL'd by the known gil seller Chomy. 6 ppl in a pt w/o LS, except Bonri (UzamakiClan) 3 mithra thfs in COMPLETELY identical gear, and a elvaan nin along with 2 blm including Bonri

Thfs:
Byutsu
Nakee
Katkoya

Blms:
Bonri
Shohalu

Nin:
Ovila

lvling in Kuftal Tunnel btw @ 1:15 PM EST

Accuser: Podo and Eruantalon

Side Note: They're like ants rebuilding an ant hill, you can kick it over, they'll rebuild it again, but you can just kick it over again.

EDIT: Also, Alim now has a new LS named LegendaryFigure

Post 89



"Sorry to say here's another bunch of sellers, this time spotted around level 20 a week ago in Qufim being PLed by Baimii

Elizbeth
Cathleen
Bienda
Bartholomew
Desmond

The other name my scrawl at the time has made unreadable looks like Eco but would need validating.

No LS all rank 1, all 3 mages in level 1 RSE, tanks / DDs in odds and sods of armour."

Post 90



"I'd also like to say that Junyi, Dalong, and Lanfei were all party of an GSLS called Chinalliance. I'm not sure if still exists or not, but its addition to the list couldn't hurt.
(The 3 attempted to recruit me to this LS because I was bogging down thier gil income- HA!)"

Post 91



"I saw TinyWolf lvling in the Citadel and he's a sack holder of UzamakiClan LS. I let him know his member Bonri is lvling with RMT and he said "I know" I asked him if he is mad at Bonri for lvling with RMT and he didn't answer me. I let him know that I was taking his silence that he doesnt have a problem leveling with RMT.

So I'm here to report the LS UzamakiClan as they have no problem with lvling with RMT. Don't let their members in your pt. They're just as bad as RMT."

Post 92

Let's see, RMT at behemoth today:

Toobooo
Rulers
Edisen
Scroiilock
Gimya
Magicangel
Huullahaha
Bingxin
Yuyminmin

Double Post Edited:
Anlisa too

Double Post Edited:
Jackson too

Double Post Edited:
Heroe
Hainan

Double Post Edited:
Smallbeauty

Double Post Edited:
Was a busy Behie

Post 148



"Some new galka RMT NIN, Pristinepup? (sp) is being PLed along in normal PTs by Maurrine "

Post 173

"New RMT: Lgirry, Sejnus"

Post 175

Total Hearsay Evidence: 37 Gilsellers


Interesting quote by Demon on original Alla thread (In response to him being accused of MPK):

I am also the one who makes you and your friends look stupid, don't forget that. Where's this proof of me MPKing you have? Hmmmmm?

Oh wait, it either A. Does not exist,

Irony Count: 1

Everyone who has been to sky on Seraph knows who they are. If you want a WP, I'll go buy you one, and you can start asking around as to who the RMT are, I'll get you leaders of most of the HNMs on the server too if you want.

Ok. I'll take you up on that.

EDIT: I was drowsy when reading through a very long thread, if any of the above posts were not intended to add Gilsellers to the list, please point it out (and I'd ask you not do it angrily, I'm attempting to be objective about this).

[Ziero]

I love how he keeps commenting that he's 'just making a list' and that it's not intended to ruin the games of others *he* feels are wrong.

Fact is, this is a hit list. It was created as a way for people of seraph who don't like RMT to know who to MPK, Harrass and intentionally hinder from playing. In his original posting here it had a 'mpk at will' line in it. This line was only removed, begrudgingly, when it brought the risk of closure upon his list. Though his reasons were 'it's because you can't MPK anymore' which is A) BS because it's still possible though far more difficult and B) posted here AFTER the anti MPK update.

Of course there's this lil tidbit:

Some new galka RMT NIN, Pristinepup? (sp) is being PLed along in normal PTs by Maurrine as I found while leveling my THF today. Tell your friends and ruin their PTs and keep a look out to warn those who decide to PT with him.

Again RD promoting breaking of the ToS based on *his* moral ideals, despite his many attempts to make people believe he's innocently 'just listing names'. His intentions with this list is painfully clear, despite how he tries to spin it. He openly admits MPKing and adamntly promotes harrassment via this list and that in my eyes makes him just as bad as any Gil Seller and worse then those who pt with him.

Why can he break the ToS, encourage others to break the ToS while punishing others who break the ToS?

[Danicus]

Fact is, this is a hit list. It was created as a way for people of seraph who don't like RMT to know who to MPK, Harrass and intentionally hinder from playing.

Absolute LIE. And it's not a fact as you state. You sensationalize and dramaticize to make your pathetically weak point. Can't argue with BS like this b/c you lack any credibility in stating this.

But it is used to "hinder (RMT) from playing". And that I will do as long as I play this game. I will hinder RMT in EVERY WAY I POSSIBLY CAN. That doesn't mean I'll MPK them or harass them (since they use the 'call GM first' mentality). But I will do everything within the TOS to deter them.

And posting a list isn't against the ToS. Learn to READ before you say things you think are true.

And Feba's trolling is what brought this to the General Forum again. Not RD, myself, or any other Seraph character.

[Feba]

Danny boy, if I were trolling, wouldn't I troll something that would purposefully piss off as many people as possible? Think about it, that's what trolls do, that's what a troll is.



FFXIO's server forums aren't very strong, because of the new post feature, forums are open to most everyone browsing the site. That's why you see people responding to other server's threads so often. If you don't like it, go to a site that doesn't have a feature like that.

This belongs nowhere else but the general discussion forum, as FFXIO has decided that threads concerning this shall be placed in the general forum.

[Hamlet]

I took up Cole on the offer and got a WP for Seraph. It was TERRIBLE. I zoned into Bastok, and after the opening cutscene, I saw a naked mithra tied to a chocobo and being dragged around Market fountain. She kept screaming "I'm not RMT!!!! I didn't know!!!" I made the trek to Jeuno and witnessed another naked character, this time a taru, aparently stripped of his equip and dignitiy, cowering in a corner while 10 or so players threw pebbles at him. "I didn't know he was RMT when I joined the pt! I swear I didn't know!!!! I AM NOT AN ANIMAL!!!"

[Murphie]

Just a bit of trivia that I'm not sure has anything to do with RMT, but the prices on Seraph are some of the lowest of all the servers out there. There's that nifty FFXI AH tool or whatever that was being linked around all over a few weeks ago, and I was (not really) surprised to find that prices there couldn't be beat.

[Ziero]

Absolute LIE. And it's not a fact as you state. You sensationalize and dramaticize to make your pathetically weak point. Can't argue with BS like this b/c you lack any credibility in stating this.

But it is used to "hinder (RMT) from playing". And that I will do as long as I play this game. I will hinder RMT in EVERY WAY I POSSIBLY CAN. That doesn't mean I'll MPK them or harass them (since they use the 'call GM first' mentality). But I will do everything within the TOS to deter them.

And posting a list isn't against the ToS. Learn to READ before you say things you think are true.

And Feba's trolling is what brought this to the General Forum again. Not RD, myself, or any other Seraph character.

1) The original post had a 'MPK at will' line in it. If that's not promoting MPKing people on the list I don't know what is.

2) He also made a lil rant in the original Alla post that was full of how he will MPK and wipe out any and all GS and PT with GSers on his list. It was brought into the old topic towards the end. I can go find it if need be.

3) He's already openly admited to MPKing people. GSer or not it's still against the ToS, why does he get to break it yet others can't?

There's nothing noble or honorable about this list. It's his personal war and he's trying to recruit some more support. He feels that anyone who objects is flat out wrong and he'll listen to nothing stating otherwise and he's perfectly within his rights to impose his will on others.

Newsflash, he's not.

[DakAttack]

And I suppose I am a troll, in some respects. People calling me troll are hypocrites though, so it doesn't really matter. Troll is a matter of perspective, in most cases. RD could be considered a troll. It's all dependant on who's doing the judging, just like the list.


No, RD couldn't be considered a troll unless you're living in Mhurron's personal twilight zone. You're a troll just looking for attention because little kids wont pump your e-peen like they did at Allahk. Seems to me you just brought a bunch of friends with you this time around.


Won't respond to RD unless he makes a new point, however.

Translation: I can't win.

And on an unrelated note:

Just a bit of trivia that I'm not sure has anything to do with RMT, but the prices on Seraph are some of the lowest of all the servers out there. There's that nifty FFXI AH tool or whatever that was being linked around all over a few weeks ago, and I was (not really) surprised to find that prices there couldn't be beat.

I kind of found Bahamut prices to be cheaper than Seraph, but then again, I wasn't checking much other than what I needed. I'm pretty surprised that Seraph's prices have toned down a bit, but there's still some expensive every day items that pain the wallet.

[Murphie]

It seems that there are a few items on Seraph (rare or difficult to obtain) that are really rather highly priced, but the day to day items like food, oil, powder, and other consumables are really well priced. Oh, and elemental staves are a damn steal.

Bahamut really isn't bad. It's pretty comparable to Seraph. When I first started, I actually landed on first Alexander and then Fairy, and both of them had absolutely horrendous prices for everything. I know it all evens out, but I feel better paying less even if I'm making less. Or whatever. It's a mental thing.

[Ziero]

Lower prices on everything is better because that makes the static quests and NPCable items prices that much better. It also means you lose less in taxes when selling items.

[Murphie]

Well, I didn't mean to derail. Back to the arguing!

[Feba]

No, RD couldn't be considered a troll unless you're living in Mhurron's personal twilight zone. You're a troll just looking for attention because little kids wont pump your e-peen like they did at Allahk. Seems to me you just brought a bunch of friends with you this time around.oh no, an internet flame.
http://www.little-gamers.com/comics/00000590.jpg

Troll is very much perspective based, in the way you use it.
Won't respond to RD unless he makes a new point, however.


Translation: I can't win.
Correct Translation: RD hasn't answered any of the old points i've asked him to, so I'm not
going to answer his.

Translation: I can't win.Translation: I don't like you, so I will flame you and try my best to make you look bad.

[M_X]

How reliable is it? There have been 4 names taken off the RMT list in about a year and a half, or however long it has been. There have been no complaints from anyone on Seraph about the names on the RMT list besides that 1 instance. I think 1 error in a year+ is good service.


I think that one instance might have been a friend of mine. She came back to the game after several month (she stopped playing before RMT got realling ingrained into the game), and joined a exp party of sellers.

RD contacted her and ,she not knowing anything about The List of RMT, just ignored RD. She was then added to the Parties With Sellers section. I believe 4 to 5 people from our LS (including myself), posted in her defense; that she was just uninformed. She even signed up for Alla and posted a apology that she was unaware of current game issues.. She was removed without inncident and everything was fine.

And how many of those people have seen the list? Can you guaruntee them a voice?

See above. Word or mouth (or type in this case).

(mostly Feba's rabid obsession).

This is because he's just trying to jack up his post count. He did it on Alla, now he's doing it here.

And in the end, I believe the content of this thread can be best described by Beseiged participant's favorite phrase: <Yawn>

[Amovorite]

Hmm.... could've sworn a certain moderator locked the original thread for some reason...... and yet a certain someone starts up a "Part 2" to the thread that was locked for some reason.... therefore defying that moderator's decision to lock the original thread for some reason, by making a continuation of said locked thread.....

And here are new people. Arguing the same old points, so I'll join in the fun and reiterate a few of my own (old points).

You don't get to offer RD crap as far as making 'adjustments' or 'improvments' to the list. He has done so in accordance with PiNG's requests. Therefore, the head honcho has given him the okay to keep his list where it's at. But just to appease some people who STILL whined about it, he made a few non-admin-requested changes. Outside of that, he's done. Your suggestions hold no weight and he isn't obligated in any way to adhere to them.

Also, it's nice for many of you to jump on the lack of proof for people listed as RMT, not people who party with RMT (though I might have seen one example, among the 30-40 something or so). Sadly, your reading comprehension has faltered, as it states in the new rules that proof must be provided for PEOPLE WHO PARTY WITH SELLERS, and not the suspected RMT themselves. Once you understand that, you can realize why the time you wasted on that post went out the window.

Oh, and Feba, I could've sworn that in the Blacklist drama thread, when you got your post deleted for posting about the List, in which it was stated that those posts weren't allowed, you stated you would just keep it to PMs with PiNG from then on. I assume you got nowhere, 'cause here you are, bringing it back to the public, to rally public support for your disagreements with the List. I could almost understand why..... but wasn't getting shut down the first time a good enough sign that you're not going to 'win' this one?

Double Post Edited:
And in the end, I believe the content of this thread can be best described by Beseiged participant's favorite phrase: <Yawn>

Heh... notice how no one does that anymore when it's the Undead Swarm?

[Shopee]

he isn't obligated in any way to adhere to them.

If you think there was any assumption otherwise, I have no idea where you picked it up.

Also, it's nice for many of you to jump on the lack of proof for people listed as RMT, not people who party with RMT (though I might have seen one example, among the 30-40 something or so). Sadly, your reading comprehension has faltered, as it states in the new rules that proof must be provided for PEOPLE WHO PARTY WITH SELLERS, and not the suspected RMT themselves. Once you understand that, you can realize why the time you wasted on that post went out the window.

No, my comprehension has not faltered.

If I was amiable to the rules as written I wouldn't be discussing the proof issue.

[Feba]

mm.... could've sworn a certain moderator locked the original thread for some reason...... Yes, because of the flames which, in this thread, are coming solely from the side supporting The List.

Not to mention this is for a seperate problem than that the original thread dealed with.

it was stated that those posts weren't allowed, you stated you would just keep it to PMs with PiNG from then on. PiNG was responding to my PMs for a time, then suddenly stopped, fyi.

PiNG has not said anything to myself, or in the open forum as far as i'm aware, concerning the list in a while.

[Amovorite]

No, my comprehension has not faltered.

If I was amiable to the rules as written I wouldn't be discussing the proof issue.

Then perhaps your discussion should be with PiNG, as PiNG is the final word on the matter, and has already given consent to the list as long as that rule exists.

Yes, because of the flames which, in this thread, are coming solely from the side supporting The List.

Not to mention this is for a seperate problem than that the original thread dealed with.

Interesting. Here is Icemage's post (final post on the original thread) stating why it was locked:

Ok folks, this topic has run its course after 31 pages.

I've read the entirety of this thread, and I see no change in attitude and no switching of sides; at this point I consider further discussion pointless.

The existence of the List is, at this time, still officially sanctioned. Please do not bombard PiNG or AKosygin with any more messages. This issue is already under active discussion in the staff forums, and we are and have been taking action where it is warrented.

As such, I am closing this thread, and opening a related thread regarding the uses, abuses, and reasoning behind the use of blacklists here:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ge...list.drama.html (http://general.ffxi.discussion/58394-blacklist.drama.html)

If you would still like to discuss this topic in general, please post your thoughts there.

Some advice for our forum members in general:

If you are not on the Seraph server, please curtail your criticism of The List. It does not affect you or your playing experience in any way, and unless you are on the server and able to judge the veracity of the claims made, then I ask that you refrain from making blanket assumptions in any case. I understand that many of you feel that you have valid points to make, but, given the reactions shown in this thread, there is no profit to be made in bringing those issues up. As can be seen from this thread, parties from both sides refuse to be swayed in either direction, so save your typing fingers and let's have a little peace, shall we?

If you are a player from Seraph and have issues with The List, please PM myself or another member of the staff here with your situation and we will bring any evidence into consideration during our staff discussions surrounding this thread.

If you have issues with my closure of this thread, please PM me.


Icemage

FFXI Forum Super Moderator

I don't see his reasoning including flames, coming 'solely' from the supporters of the list. I see that his reasoning was that the discussion had run its course and that neither side was going to sway on the matter. Furthermore, he also states that if you have any more issues with the list, to PM him or any other moderator about it, not make yet another thread, regardless of issue, made up of a title suggesting a continuation of a previously locked thread.

Fabrication of reasoning and not following a mod's requests? Not too good on your part.

[Shopee]

Then perhaps your discussion should be with PiNG, as PiNG is the final word on the matter, and has already given consent to the list as long as that rule exists.

If you paid attention to Icemage's post which you quoted, you would see this is not the case

Please do not bombard PiNG or AKosygin with any more messages.



As such, I am closing this thread, and opening a related thread regarding the uses, abuses, and reasoning behind the use of blacklists here: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ge...list.drama.html If you would still like to discuss this topic in general, please post your thoughts there.

Now while this isn't that specific thread, it has dissapeared off the map. No mod has locked this one, which should lead one to assume this thread is that thread's effective replacement.

[Feba]

coming 'solely' from the supporters of the list. flames which, in this thread, are coming solely from the side supporting The List.Thanks.

Furthermore, he also states that if you have any more issues with the list,
If you have issues with my closure of this thread, please PM me.
Thanks again.

[Amovorite]

Hahah.... that first quote was a nice try to derail me. Let me show you where you slipped up:

[Yes, because of the flames which, in this thread, are coming solely from the side supporting The List.

What you are saying here is that the original thread was closed because of the flames, and then you added that the ones in this thread are coming solely from the list supporters as a side note. However, on one of the previous pages, I believe there is someone against the list slamming RD as being a McCarthy or something or other, which is still a flame of sorts. So yes, you're wrong, and you're wrong again. On top of that, Icemage didn't include flames or insults as his reasoning for locking the original thread.

The second quote, however, is a mistake on my part. I overlooked the part where Icemage said that you you were FROM Seraph and had a problem with the list, to PM a moderator. However (yes, I like that word), you still made a thread labeled as a continuation of a thread that Icemage himself locked, and are still trying to make arguments for your personal war against the List. You could have PM'd Icemage with your example, and used that as your reasoning that the original thread should remain unlocked. Instead you went over his head and tried to attack the List from a different angle. That shows a lack of respect for the moderators decisions on your part.

What was your topic about in the original thread? It was about the List and how it isn't effective and should be removed from this site.

What is your topic about in the original thread part 2? It's about the List and how it isn't effective and should be removed from this site, plus an example.

You shouldn't thank me if you're not going to cover your bases well enough.

If you paid attention to Icemage's post which you quoted, you would see this is not the case

You are right. There is a request not to send anymore PMs to PiNG about the matter, which would lead me to believe that PiNG has heard more than enough arguments (same ones over and over to be annoying enough for reiteration), to hear any more. If through several pages and hundreds of posts, RD hasn't budged any further than the administrators wished, why reiterate the same arguments as if you would think he would listen to you? The only person who would matter in hearing comments about the list would be PiNG, and since you can't send PMs that way.... arguing it further would be pointless.

[Icemage]

NO.

This is NOT going to go around and around again on this forum.

Jeez, I take my eyes off this place for a few hours and all Hell breaks loose.

I will re-iterate what I stated before in the previous closed thread.

(1) If you're not on Seraph, and have "strong feelings" about The List, PM a moderator or RunningDemon personally. The List does NOT AFFECT YOU. No matter how much you may argue otherwise, until such a copycat list appears for your server, kindly keep your opinions to yourself on this topic. (Yes, this includes you too, Feba).

(2) If you are on Seraph and you object to the presence of The List, please PM me or another moderator and we will bring such evidence to the administrators under due consideration. For the moment, the List remains sanctioned by PiNG, the site owner, and so any discussion thereof is completely moot until such time as that ruling is reversed by him.

THREAD CLOSED


Icemage