Every time I scan Korroloka Tunnel during JP peak I see it full of parties. We all know why; because Korroloka exp owns Valkurm exp so hard it isn't even funny. Then JP prime time ends and the PT count in Korroloka soon falls to 0 and remains that way until the next JP prime. At the same time Valkurm has become so crowded you can hardly find a mob to kill in there, yet everyone insists on going to Valkurm. Every time.

I've always thought newbie JPs are far better than NA (or EU) newbies, but I think this observation kinda confirms it. Somehow this whole "level to 10-12, then go to dunes" mindset is solidly stuck in the NA heads and quite frankly, it pisses me off. Why can't people think for themselves and actually consider the options they have instead of following everyone to Valkurm like a herd of stupid sheep?

No idea.
>> Edited for clarity of purpose

I'd wager it's because the Dunes is a more centralized location than Korroloka, and no one wants to try to find 5 other people willing to go somewhere else.

Exactly. Everyone's already in dunes. It's so hard to make a korro PT that it's usually not worth it, unless you're with friends.

My asnswer would be two fold.

1. Valkrum Dunes is alot easier to get to from Sandy and Windurst than Kor. Tunnel is, especially without the use of a chocobo or airship.

2. Even if you're one of the people that are smart enough to not follow the masses, alot of the time you have to go where the money is, or in this case, the exp. True, Kor. Tunnel might be better exp than the dunes, but there's actually PEOPLE in the dunes. I can sit in the dunes and wait 10min and get a party, I might wait all day in Kor. Tunnel without one.

tbh, I've never had much luck with Korro or Maze standard pickup-parties. If you have a bunch of mages + range, sure it's wonderful but standard tank + 2 (close) melees has been nothing but disasters for me. Full-Force Blow hurts like all heck.

We're allergic to communication and planning, and strangers are icky. Some weirdo with red and green thingies around his words trying to get me to go to some Kallookidydookidy Tunnel isn't getting that crab killed any faster. Now shut up and lemme work! 16MNK LFP goldarnit!

I'd wager it's because the Dunes is a more centralized location than Korroloka, and no one wants to try to find 5 other people willing to go somewhere else.

Well, the dunes are far from all major towns. In the middle of nowhere even. Korroloka is in Bastok!

I tried to invite people to Korroloka Today. I had a 4-person PT in the dunes and we decided to move to Korroloka and I wanted two more members, but I found only unsuitable jobs and refusers. When we finally made it to Korroloka and started gaining comparable exp with only 4 people, those who refused my invite were still seeking in the dunes. I bet they got their wonderful 1k/h when they finally got a party. Too bad they could have made 4k/h in Korroloka.

Amusingly, while skilling up my dark magic in the empty Korroloka Tunnel, I noticed a gil seller bot PT enter and start to exp on the worms. They are all L21 with no subs and horrible players. I bet they still make more exp than the average Valkurm PT.

I seek in jeuno. If I get invite to dunes, then I teleport. If I get invite to korro, I airship. Simplest way in my opinon.

Well, the dunes are far from all major towns. In the middle of nowhere even. Korroloka is in Bastok!Centralized between the 3 nations, I meant. :P

I'd've mentioned the subjob quest as well, but it seems most people have a subjob already.

I've always thought newbie JPs are far better than NA (or EU) newbies, but I think this observation kinda confirms it.

This is far from true. Newbies are exactly that, they are new to the game regardless of what language they speak, they don't have some special gaming powers just because they're from Japan. They don't know where to go when they reach x level so they ask around. The fact is most players will be told that the dunes is the place to level from 10-20 if they speak English. If the Japanese are telling their newbies that Kor tunnel is the place to level then thats good for them. All the more reason to still level in the dunes whilst they pack out that area with parties. I for one am a fan or Buburimu Penisula (sp?). It's just a short boat ride from VD and hardly anybody camps there.


I think one of the other main factors in the popularity of the dunes is the choice of starter nation. I don't know about your server but on Asura the majority of the players chose San d'Oria and Windurst. Valkurm is the logical meeting point for members of these nations.

You say that the dunes are in the middle of nowhere whilst Kor Tunnel is in Bastok, this only benefits new players from Bastok. Are you suggesting that players who chose other starter cities have to make a long journey whilst Bastok players sit on their arse waiting?

Valkurm (and Buburimu) also follows a logical progression of levelling with the zones either side being good spots to get levels 7-12. Zurhum Mines can hardly support a player up to level 15 so they would have to venture out of Bastok only to come all the way back just to get into Kor tunnel for a party. Lets not forget the great sense of exploration a newbie has. They want to see new exciting zones, not just hang around their starter city.

So I suppose what I'm saying is Kor tunnel isn't really for starters, its more for players who have experienced the dunes a few times, have a good method of travel and can recruit friends/ls members/other experienced players for a good xp party.

Well, the dunes are far from all major towns. In the middle of nowhere even. Korroloka is in Bastok!



umm, i'd hate to break it to you but, not everyone is from bastok... :rolleyes:
bastok is further than valkrum for sandoria and windurst players by far.

plus, for a lot of newbies, they might not know how to or even be able to get to bastok if they are on foot. a lv 15 player that must walk on foot from windurst? good luck on that one. even if they did, i doubt most players would want to.

now, there are far less jp newbies out there than there are any other newbies. so for a jp to get there, they probably just airship, outpost warp or tele dem/altepa and ride from there. much easier for them to make it to korrokola tunnel than it is for a lv. 15 newbie with no chocobo/airship.

the main reason ppl goto valkrum is as people have pointed out:
easier to get to than other places
capable of holding many pts (though it gets crowded, how many zones in vanadiel can hold 20-30 pts?! i dont know if i know any others besides buburimu that have safe camps)

This is far from true. Newbies are exactly that, they are new to the game regardless of what language they speak, they don't have some special gaming powers just because they're from Japan. They don't know where to go when they reach x level so they ask around. The fact is most players will be told that the dunes is the place to level from 10-20 if they speak English. If the Japanese are telling their newbies that Kor tunnel is the place to level then thats good for them.

I believe JP newbies are either better at seeking info or just more willing to do so. Obviously it has nothing to do with gamer talent.


I think one of the other main factors in the popularity of the dunes is the choice of starter nation. I don't know about your server but on Asura the majority of the players chose San d'Oria and Windurst. Valkurm is the logical meeting point for members of these nations.

Not any more logical than Buburimu, though I do see other advantages Valkurm has over Buburimu.


You say that the dunes are in the middle of nowhere whilst Kor Tunnel is in Bastok, this only benefits new players from Bastok. Are you suggesting that players who chose other starter cities have to make a long journey whilst Bastok players sit on their arse waiting?

Well, you'll have to run your ass off to Valkurm no matter where you start, so might as well run the whole way to Bastok and get good exp. ^^


Lets not forget the great sense of exploration a newbie has. They want to see new exciting zones, not just hang around their starter city.

If they were actually exploring they would find all the other leveling options. Instead they go where everyone else goes or where their moronic more experienced friends tell them to go to. Yesterday I was in a dunes PT where the rank 5 ninja didn't know what Utsusemi is or where to get it. That's the kind of people we have giving advice to our newbies.


So I suppose what I'm saying is Kor tunnel isn't really for starters, its more for players who have experienced the dunes a few times, have a good method of travel and can recruit friends/ls members/other experienced players for a good xp party.
Yeah, I agree with this in a way. If you don't have a sub, Valkurm is ideal because the sub job quest items drop there, however, if you have a sub there is little reason to ever exp in Valkurm again.

I've always thought newbie JPs are far better than NA (or EU) newbies, but I think this observation kinda confirms it.

Generalizations=bad. Ive had plenty of horrible parties, and great parties from all three sides of the spectrum. When we all started off in the game we we're all at the same levels (though some people learned faster than other).

The other reason why the Karakolla tunnel is not picked is becuase it only supports a few parties, where as Valkrum can support a good amount of players. And there is one other area too, that supports most valkrum dunes level parties too. The Bermibu pennisula (sorry for my bad spelling), but I dont see that area flooded by JP player either.

People are gonna go where the parties are made (IE Valkrum Dunes, Qufim, Crawlers Nest, Garliage). And It's gonna be like that.

Somehow this whole "level to 10-12, then go to dunes" mindset is solidly stuck in the NA heads and quite frankly, it pisses me off. Why can't people think for themselves and actually consider the options they have instead of following everyone to Valkurm like a herd of stupid sheep?

More generalizations. Not Every NA player is a stupid sheep as you put it. The Dunes is a learning place, you have to help people to become the best they are there, not elsewhere.

The other reason why the Karakolla tunnel is not picked is becuase it only supports a few parties, where as Valkrum can support a good amount of players. And there is one other area too, that supports most valkrum dunes level parties too. The Bermibu pennisula (sorry for my bad spelling), but I dont see that area flooded by JP player either.

Oh this one is easy. Worms are quite simply the weakest mob type in the entire game. That's why JPs go to Korroloka and not Buburimu. The only advantage Buburimu has over Valkurm is that it's not crowded. Korroloka on the other hand simply has a lot better mobs than either Valkurm or Buburimu.

It's like going to an overcrowded Bibiki Bay to exp on those damned efts instead of imps in an empty Caedarva Mire or something. A really bad idea.

Yeah, I agree with this in a way. If you don't have a sub, Valkurm is ideal because the sub job quest items drop there, however, if you have a sub there is little reason to ever exp in Valkurm again.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Complete newbies won't have subs, simple as that. So either you're talking about newbies being told to go to VD, which is the best place for them, or you want more experienced players to go to Kor tunnel.

The main thing you seem to be forgetting is the size factor involved. Kor tunnel cannot support anywhere near as many parties as VD or BP. If everyone went to Kor tunnel and levelled from 15-20, xp would grind to a halt due to over camping. Everyone would sit around bitching and moaning that "Valkrum is so much better, why is it only the Japs level there?"

I believe JP newbies are either better at seeking info or just more willing to do so. Obviously it has nothing to do with gamer talent.

Actually I would say its more along the lines of the Japanese being less willing to help new starters so players are more likely to look up mob levels or levelling guides from the internet.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Complete newbies won't have subs, simple as that. So either you're talking about newbies being told to go to VD, which is the best place for them, or you want more experienced players to go to Kor tunnel.

I consider anyone who has not yet reached L50 with a single job a newbie. Past L50 I expect anyone I PT with to know how to play their job. Sadly it doesn't always go like that. Thus most newbies do have sub jobs.


The main thing you seem to be forgetting is the size factor involved. Kor tunnel cannot support anywhere near as many parties as VD or BP. If everyone went to Kor tunnel and levelled from 15-20, xp would grind to a halt due to over camping. Everyone would sit around bitching and moaning that "Valkrum is so much better, why is it only the Japs level there?"

The fastest should pick Korroloka and the rest would have to settle with Valkurm. It would solve the shitty exp problem of the low levels and the overcrowding of Valkurm.


Actually I would say its more along the lines of the Japanese being less willing to help new starters so players are more likely to look up mob levels or levelling guides from the internet.
Well, if that is the case, they're clearly making their community a favor by not being as helpful.

1. please refrain from making any more sweeping generalizations about JP vs NA.

2. how do you not know the JP newbies aren't simply being told to level in Korro and thus adhearing to sheep mentality too?

Well the thing is when I've played in the Karrakola tunnel is that It can really support only 2 good parties. And even then we were fighting over the enemies, waiting over pop locations.

I myself didn't really like it, now if there wasn't always some manaburning party down there (atleast on my server everytime I've been down there, the other parties been a Power leveled manaburn). Ill go there yes, but in my experience the dunes or burmibu penninsula (once again sorry if I mispelled it) can give much better experince.

(Though, thats what this all is about, is in our own experiences in this game)

yes, korrokola tunnel can only hold 3 pts at most. more than that and you'll be provoking worms like they are nms.

1 pt in the beginning, 1 at the end near aletpa and 1 across the bridge near the crabs.

thats 18 ppl max in that zone for levels 13-18. valkrum can hold 100+ people no problem.

are you japanese maju?

I consider anyone who has not yet reached L50 with a single job a newbie. Past L50 I expect anyone I PT with to know how to play their job. Sadly it doesn't always go like that. Thus most newbies do have sub jobs.

So in this case your use of the word "newbie" is wrong. The players that should be going to VD, i.e the real Newbies, are on their first job or have just unlocked their subjob and decided to get that to a suitable level.

The fastest should pick Korroloka and the rest would have to settle with Valkurm. It would solve the shitty exp problem of the low levels and the overcrowding of Valkurm.

So who determines the "fastest" if someone makes the effort to get to Kor Tunnel aren't going to turn around and run back to VD when they see its full.


Well, if that is the case, they're clearly making their community a favor by not being as helpful.

If you say so

1. please refrain from making any more sweeping generalizations about JP vs NA.

2. how do you not know the JP newbies aren't simply being told to level in Korro and thus adhearing to sheep mentality too?

1. The only way to talk about a large number of individuals is through generalization. When I say JP newbies > NA newbies I obviously don't mean there are no exceptions. I'm merely giving my thoughts on what I have observed.

And I'm not talking only about exping locations. JP newbies do in fact play better than NA newbies, at least that is what my experience tells me. Of course it is possible that since the ammount of JP newbies I have partied with is relatively very low, I might have just been lucky and and not met many horrible players in their ranks. However, I see that as the more unlikely possibility.

2. Sheep mentality is only bad when it leads to people doing things wrong. Even if JPs like to level in Korroloka without understanding why they do it, at least they're gaining a lot more exp than the fools pulling one snipper every 20 minutes in Valkurm.


So who determines the "fastest" if someone makes the effort to get to Kor Tunnel aren't going to turn around and run back to VD when they see its full.

/sea korroloka

Well the thing is when I've played in the Karrakola tunnel is that It can really support only 2 good parties. And even then we were fighting over the enemies, waiting over pop locations.


Korroloka can usually support two parties at the Bastok entrance, two in the "middle room" and two at the Altepa entrance.

/sea korroloka

Again we're supposed to be talking about newbies. They probably won't know much about the search facility outside of using the menu at least and they won't be able search Kor Tunnel unless they have actually been there.

Korroloka can usually support two parties at the Bastok entrance, two in the "middle room" and two at the Altepa entrance.

If you don't mind slower xp than snippers on whitebone at peak time

generalizations also step on peoples toes, especially when you are making disparaging remarks.

just because your experiences make you think something, does not mean it is appropriate to generalize base on that.

for example, NIN > PLD because all the PLDs suck, "at least that is what my experience tells me."

so again, please refrain from making sweeping generalizations (and absolute statements for that matter).

I was getting 240xp per Zu in the penninsula last night!

generalizations also step on peoples toes, especially when you are making disparaging remarks.

just because your experiences make you think something, does not mean it is appropriate to generalize base on that.

for example, NIN > PLD because all the PLDs suck, "at least that is what my experience tells me."

so again, please refrain from making sweeping generalizations (and absolute statements for that matter).

Should I perhaps gather notes of all my parties and then post them here so you can see pure statistics? Just because someone feels their toes are being stepped on doesn't mean it's not true.

Texans love guns. That's another generalization, but we all know it's not too far fetched. There is some truth in every generalization.

And that NIN > PLD comment of yours isn't far from the truth either. I bet in most situations NIN is better even if sometimes PLD can do a great job.

Texans love guns.

Hey now, don't drag us into this...

Should I perhaps gather notes of all my parties and then post them here so you can see pure statistics? Just because someone feels their toes are being stepped on doesn't mean it's not true.two things:

1. it's not an issue of stepped on toes being true or not. stepped on toes lead to flames and flames lead to thread locks. unless you want to see this thread locked, don't start down that path to being with.

2. generalizations are just as far from the truth as they are close to it; which in the end means they are worthless.

Didn't bother to read everything just skimmed a few. What I have to say is when I started this game and my 3 other friends, we were able to travel from starting nations to any of the other 3 without much trouble. So a group of newbies traveling between areas shows it isn't as hard as people make it to look.

I noticed someone state that Full Force Blow hurts. This has only been true for me when I fought worms in Maze of Shakhrami when I was lv. 10. Outside of that equipping right for your targeted enemy works wonders. Once I got my equipped with all the +stone equipment Full Force Blow was more like a Full Force Tap a whooping 30 damage when each hit is doing 15-20.

Mind you we got those strategies down before ever even getting a subjob yet. Started for my subjob stuff when I was halfway through 17. First time I ever went to Valkurm or Buburimu. Actually got my lv. 18 while collecting the items for the quest, also was when i happened to get the gem I needed for the SMN quest. Didn't know before that any ghost would drop the subjob item so we waited in the penninsula for night.

Still think for the lv. 10-20 Korroloka and Maze of Shakhrami is the fastest. Even know a person I met who gave me hell about exp'ing in maze. He left the party and went back to Dunes, even as hard as it was to get people to come to the maze when all was said and done 2 days later that same guy is questioning me on how I reach lv. 20 so fast. he had only achieved 3 levels in those 2 days. while I achieved 8.

Those two areas are definatly faster all you need is a good healer and any ranged fighter (range physical or magic), rest of party make-up doesn't matter as long as their defense is half-way decent. After lv. 15 party size should only be like 3 people for best exp effeciency. Lighter party much more portable and effecient.

Now the only advantage of Dunes is that it is capable of supporting more parties then Maze or Korroloka is able. The quantity of worms that pop is just to low for their to be any more then 1-2 parties.

A player getting invited to basically a full part already in maze or korroloka has to be an idiot or lacking a lot of information to refuse that.

1. The only way to talk about a large number of individuals is through generalization. When I say JP newbies > NA newbies I obviously don't mean there are no exceptions. I'm merely giving my thoughts on what I have observed.

And I'm not talking only about exping locations. JP newbies do in fact play better than NA newbies, at least that is what my experience tells me.

Since both your avatar and signature involve anime, and you are applying a positive generalization to JP players and a negative to NA players, this would lead me to generalize using my experience that you are no more than a JP fanboy/girl, and in actuality this is merely the projection of your idea that Japanese culture and/or certain entertainment mediums are superior to anything of North American (or European) production.

I am not responsible for any reader failing to detect the irony and/or point of this post.

Since both your avatar and signature involve anime, and you are applying a positive generalization to JP players and a negative to NA players, this would lead me to generalize using my experience that you are no more than a JP fanboy/girl, and in actuality this is merely the projection of your idea that Japanese culture and/or certain entertainment mediums are superior to anything of North American (or European) production.

I am not responsible for any reader failing to detect the irony and/or point of this post.

Your signature contains an image from a Japanese game. Thus you are obviously a JP fanboy.

When I look for entertainment I look for the kind of entertainment I like, not entertainment from the country I like. Nationalism is the bane of our world, almost as bad as another part of human culture, but I'm not going to touch that subject with a 10-ft pole.

While the generalisations aren't needed, the OP does raise an intersting question of why people litterally cram into valkrum at times when there's dozens of other places (and not just Korrolka). While they might not have the same range of mobs (and i've never got the opertunity to try a lot of these places, so i can't testify for how good they are) people with a little effort could party at horutoro, shakrami, KRP, carpenters Landing, meriphaud, pashow, jugner at various points 10-20.

But the dunes is like a convenience store. Every thing you need under one roof, subjob items check, mobs for full range 10-20, check, safe place nearby for LFG, check, easy to build a party (and thats the big one), check. Who cares if the exp is worse, it takes so little effort to organise thigns when you get there people are drawn in. So much so that anyone not going to valkrum has a hard time finding anyone to join them.

I'd personally argue that the dunes is a pain in the backside to get to for everyone, but pretty much a equal pain the behind. People from windy could get to shakrami easier, people from sandy could get to KRT or carpenters easier, People from bastok could get to Korrolka easier. But for some reason instead we end up with 3 parties of the same level in the dunes instead, fighting over one clipper.

Your signature contains an image from a Japanese game. Thus you are obviously a JP fanboy.

Fallacious point. Note that I am not showing my obvious fanboyism by attacking people from certain nations with negative generalizations and raising people from a different nation up using positive generalizations.

In fact, if one followed the fact (which is patently obvious fromt he previous post) that I appear to have a negative view of Japan fanboy/girls, one would in fact conclude that I am sending contradictory signals (if having a signature containing material originating in Japan indicates on its own Japan fanboy/girlism) and would not be able to draw a conclusion.

You on the other hand are sending coinciding and self-reinforcing signals leading me to the inevitable conclusion. Japan fanboy/girl.

DISCLAIMER: If your name is Maju, re-read the small text in my previous post. Keywords: Irony.

The big irony to this debate though is that anime in essence is still a NA created thing. Anime style originated off of old NA cartoons, just they advanced it one way and NA advanced it another. Real Irony though is NA or other industries reconizes the Anime style as being superior to their creation, which is why you start to see these cartoons such as "Teen Titans", "Justice Leauge" (newer versions), "Batman Returns" (Cartoon version), "The Boondocks" (Animated not comic) and others moving to more of a anime like style.

Only those cartoonist trying to make a "unique" style that create the aboritions that are no were near anime and some are honestly quite pathetic. These cartoonist doing this exist on all sides of the spectrum.

Nationalism is the bane of our world.

No political correctness is the bane of the world, such that having a Union Jack painted on the roof of a mini is now apparently "inciting nationalism".

Maju, you did seem to miss the irony of Shopee's post. Anyway to the point, someone mentioned Carpenter's Landing. What a good xp spot that is for 15-20, honestly got great xp there with my static but you never see anyone there except a few bst or people farming thunder elements. So why doesn't everyone run all the way to San d'Oria and level there? Simple really, because no-one talks about it and you'd be surprised at the amount of players who don't know the San d'Orian entrance exists.


cartoons such as "Teen Titans"

Nooooooooooooooo!!! Its been cancelled. Bring it back Cartoon Network!! :vent:

Actually I'd heard that the carpenter's landing you could party in there from level 10-27 on many different mobs. Ive parties there once, and I liked it. Now if only i could find a nice party, static, or group of friends to level there.

Off Topic:
Nooooooooooooooo!!! Its been cancelled. Bring it back Cartoon Network!!Teen Titans annoyed the hell out of me, I'm glad it's cancelled. They are producing Legion of Super Heroes though <3 (not sure if it'll be regular broadcast or CN).

No political correctness is the bane of the world, such that having a Union Jack painted on the roof of a mini is now apparently "inciting nationalism".

A Union Jack on the roof of your mini only shows your bad taste. Real nationalism causes wars.


Maju, you did seem to miss the irony of Shopee's post.

Yes I did.

Real Irony though is NA or other industries reconizes the Anime style as being superior to their creation.


Anime is superior? I think not. (http://www.nickjr.com/shows/oswald/about_oswald.jhtml)

Anime is superior? I think not. (http://www.nickjr.com/shows/oswald/about_oswald.jhtml)
I have seen the light. Thank you.

I have seen the light. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Once I saw Oswald with my kids, I realized all other forms of color, movement, sound, and storytelling were inferior.

Then my head blew up.

Anime is superior? I think not. (http://www.nickjr.com/shows/oswald/about_oswald.jhtml)

Haha very funny.

We're allergic to communication and planning, and strangers are icky. Some weirdo with red and green thingies around his words trying to get me to go to some Kallookidydookidy Tunnel isn't getting that crab killed any faster. Now shut up and lemme work! 16MNK LFP goldarnit!I love this response!

YOUR LANGUAGE IS SILLY!! (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=96)

I've tried to build parties and then go to the tunnel, and then I have problems with impatience. You're heading there, you're Rank 10 so you get there pretty fast, but the Rank 1 or 2 may have never been there. Suddenly they think, "hmm, I've been walking for 20 minutes, I'm having an anxioty attack trying to avoid Goblins, and I was in an area where people my level were already killing." Next thing you know they disband, and you're looking for somebody else you'll have to drag kicking and screaming to Bastok.

I often play during a time where there are a lot of JPN players, so I've had pretty good amount of parties there. NIN, SAM, RNG, and DRG all went from Lv.14~19 or 20 in one simple, beautiful night.

I usually seek in Jeuno as well, then go where I'm needed, but I'm finding some people don't quite know how to use that damn /search command. Then again, I usually build my own parties during the Dunes range so I can go some place else. Maze or Tunnel, or the Peninsula.

In all seriousness though, Carpenter's Landing would be a godsend if it's really viable from 10-25. Sandy citizens could solo the first ten in Ronfaure, then go back to town and slip into CL. You wouldn't have to come out of there for 15 freaking levels. I gotta go to Campsitarus.

Off Topic:
Teen Titans annoyed the hell out of me, I'm glad it's cancelled.

You lie!! I will say this only once

Best theme song ever!

I don't like any of the other Puffy Ami-Yumi J-Pop crap but the TT theme was great.

A Union Jack on the roof of your mini only shows your bad taste. Real nationalism causes wars.

Actually a Union Jack on the roof of a mini (original 60s not this BMW crap) shown that you were proud of your country and supported British industry, it was actually in bad taste if you chose a plain white roof when the option of a Jack was available. Side note: Original 60s Mini Cooper in British Racing green with the chequered flag roof is beyond cool. :cool:

Yes I did.

Ok, well I'll just spell it out. Sorry, I was hoping you'd pick up on it, but sometimes I don't communicate well ;)

When I look for entertainment I look for the kind of entertainment I like, not entertainment from the country I like.

It is obvious from this response that my statement breaks down on a personal level. Here you voice out that the generalization does not in fact apply to you. Follow me so far?


Well all those 'stupid sheep' have hardly been given a chance to explain themselves. Until you go through and ask each and every one of them why it is they go to Valkurm as opposed to Korroloka, and ask every single one of the JP players the opposite (while also noting that a good amount JP players do attend the dunes) all you really have the ability to say is:


Most North Americans go to Valkurm dunes, while some Japanese players go to Korroloka instead.


You have no right to call them 'stupid sheep', or make any other insulting remarks about their reasons for doing so. In the same way that I don't have the right to call you a Japan fanboy/girl due to my observations (I did so only in the interest of making a point, and it was not a serious accusation in case that was not clear).

I understand that fundamentally you are asking why (and this is good), however some of your comments have led me to believe (and I think rightly so) that you have a rather negative opinion of the NAs that go to Valkurm Dunes that you are also trying to argue. You have already come to a conclusion to 'why':


NA newbies are 'stupid sheep' and JP newbies are "better".

I understand that fundamentally you are asking why (and this is good), however some of your comments have led me to believe (and I think rightly so) that you have a rather negative opinion of the NAs that go to Valkurm Dunes that you are also trying to argue. You have already come to a conclusion to 'why':

I have a negative opinion of people in general. Sheep mentality doesn't only happen in-game, I see it everywhere around me. I simply find it interesting how JPs seem to have been able to avoid the Valkurm trap it causes.

Another good one is the THF/NIN thing. /NIN hasn't in most cases been able to compete with /WAR ever since SE nerfed the TP floor abuse, yet you barely see any thieves who offer /WAR as a sub job option. I haven't seen any difference between JP and NA/EU in this matter, though.

Generally my opinion goes like this: At early levels JPs are the fast adapters and learners while NAs tend to suffer from either ignorance or stubbornness and are more often incompetent. Later on it evens out so that you can't really see a difference at all. Most are at least somewhat good (though I think overall player competence has significantly dropped from two years ago). Of course NA is sometimes preferred because it makes communication easier if you can talk without the weak translator.

I have a negative opinion of people in general. Sheep mentality doesn't only happen in-game, I see it everywhere around me.

And I see an unsettling amount of people who have decided that other people are sheep, and that they, are in fact special and see the light (along with other people that agree with them on certain issues) that everyone else is too mindless to have seen.

For example: I am sure lots of people are into Japanese entertainment right now. Anime, Final Fantasy, things like that.

It is obvious that you consider yourself to not be 'sheepified' when enjoying this entertainment. You are doing it of your own volition and your own appreciation.

Maybe you underestimate how much collective movements of human beings are driven almost entirely on an individual level.

I love this response!

YOUR LANGUAGE IS SILLY!! (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=96)

I've tried to build parties and then go to the tunnel, and then I have problems with impatience. You're heading there, you're Rank 10 so you get there pretty fast, but the Rank 1 or 2 may have never been there. Suddenly they think, "hmm, I've been walking for 20 minutes, I'm having an anxioty attack trying to avoid Goblins, and I was in an area where people my level were already killing." Next thing you know they disband, and you're looking for somebody else you'll have to drag kicking and screaming to Bastok.

I often play during a time where there are a lot of JPN players, so I've had pretty good amount of parties there. NIN, SAM, RNG, and DRG all went from Lv.14~19 or 20 in one simple, beautiful night.

I usually seek in Jeuno as well, then go where I'm needed, but I'm finding some people don't quite know how to use that damn /search command. Then again, I usually build my own parties during the Dunes range so I can go some place else. Maze or Tunnel, or the Peninsula.

Lol, you know the only time I had an anxioty attack was when I was trying to make my way back to kazham from the Elshimo region at lv. 27. Trying tailing goblins down a tunnel and then sneaking past them just right to avoid agro when they turn.

Think that is tough try doing it 5 times, that's an anxioty attack for you. On the upside when I had done that I made it through without any aggro. Still love the conversation the party had when they realized they had left me behind when they left.

I return to camp..
Me>> Uhh, were'd everyone go?
Leader>> Were are you?
Me>> Still in the Elshimo Region
Leader>> What? Didn't the WHM sneak and Invis you?
WHM>> No, I thought you were going to sneak and invis him.
Leader>> Damn, were on the airship going to be a while to get back.

I said skrew it and tried to get through myself. Four tunnels of avoid gobs of aggro (you are literally standing right next to them).

Leader>> Alright I'm getting on airship to come get you.
Me>> Don't need to now.
Leader>> Died?
Me>> No, made it to kazham.
Leader>> Dude! You trained gobs to the Kazham zone? That's not smart going to have a lot of people pissed at you.
Me>> Didn't get any aggro, there's no train to zone.
Leader>> Someone kill the goblins on the way?
Me>> Nope
Leader>> Bull****, no way you could make it through the tunnels without sneak and invis. Impossible to avoid aggro.
Me>> Well then I got one hell of a good guardian angel.

Not exactly what was said but close to something like that. Still didn't believe me so I had to prove it to him which made the fifth attempt on that. Don't know if the gobs still have that behavior but a hint on how I got past, the gobs when pathing in a line always had turned left.

(Off topic:Sorry this took so long but I couldn't resist with all the talk of anime)

http://www.desslok.com/PIC/casty.gif
And Speaking of Anime being superior (And it's very *nudge, nudge* *wink, wink* anti-american, and anti-facist). Let's Disco!!!!!!!!!

(I love the bell-bottom space suits)

(Back On topic) Still in all experience, it's your own preferance, you can party with your friends in a smaller area, or if most your friends have a bunch of high level jobs (and never come back like some of my friends) you can go to the dunes.

Maybe you underestimate how much collective movements of human beings are driven almost entirely on an individual level.

I'd bet a worryingly major part of high schooler behaviour comes from peer pressure. Do you think people start smoking from personal choice?

This doesn't apply to you if you are American, but in Finland where I come from, we have obligatory military service for all healthy males. As an alternative you can pick civilian service, which lasts longer but is less binding and does not involve military training. Guess how many pick civilian service? Not many I tell you. Many, perhaps even a majority do think this through, but I know loads of people who picked military service because:

a) Their parents/relatives are conservative nationalists.
b) Because everyone else does it.

I believe b) is the most common reason. Neither of these reasons has anything to do with what the person really prefers. Sheep mentality ftw?

PS. This thread is now about as off-topic as it can get. :wasted:

I'd bet a worryingly major part of high schooler behaviour comes from peer pressure. Do you think people start smoking from personal choice?

Unless peer pressure has some way of making human free-will impossible, of course it's a personal choice.

It's a personal choice for them to say "What others thinks of me matters", it's a personal choice for them to say "I want to be cool!". It IS ultimately a choice that they make, and no one can take that away from them.

This doesn't apply to you if you are American, but in Finland where I come from, we have obligatory military service for all healthy males. As an alternative you can pick civilian service, which lasts longer but is less binding and does not involve military training. Guess how many pick civilian service? Not many I tell you. Many, perhaps even a majority do think this through, but I know loads of people who picked military service because:

a) Their parents/relatives are conservative nationalists.
b) Because everyone else does it.

I believe b) is the most common reason. Neither of these reasons has anything to do with what the person really prefers. Sheep mentality ftw?

Actually it's all to do with what the person really prefers, otherwise they wouldn't have made the choice.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to act in such a way that you are acting against your OWN VALUES. The "I" in "I choose" cannot ever be removed because we are singular individuals.

Unless peer pressure has some way of making human free-will impossible, of course it's a personal choice.

It's a personal choice for them to say "What others thinks of me matters", it's a personal choice for them to say "I want to be cool!". It IS ultimately a choice that they make, and no one can take that away from them.

Actually it's all to do with what the person really prefers, otherwise they wouldn't have made the choice.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to act in such a way that you are acting against your OWN VALUES. The "I" in "I choose" cannot ever be removed because we are singular individuals.

I see where you're coming from, though I don't quite agree. Sure, you choose to do something because you feel other people's opinions of yourself are more important than your own, however, as long as other people's opinions are a factor in your judgement, I don't think your choices can really be called your own. Ultimately it was those around you that affected your choice, not you yourself.

Ultimately it was those around you that affected your choice

But only because you chose to let them.

But only because you chose to let them.
Yes, but that's a completely different choice already. ;)

I'd say this topic is quite difficult. Very much like the debate about the existence of free will. Do we really have free will when all our actions are driven by motives? Did I go to the grocery store because I am free to do so or did I do it because I needed food?

Yes, but that's a completely different choice already. ;)

Yes, it is indeed, but I'm not sure that would make it any less relevant =)

I'd say this topic is quite difficult. Very much like the debate about the existence of free will. Do we really have free will when all our actions are driven by motives? Did I go to the grocery store because I am free to do so or did I do it because I needed food?

I'd say that free will is provable simply because of the choice mentioned previously.

Everyone has the choice to choose what will influence their other choices. It usually ends up at a final, arbitrary choice. Where you cannot answer 'why?' in a satisfactory fashion. The fact that one can choose arbitrarily (although it's usually not on a concious level until you think about it, which is not often done) shows that free will does in fact exist.

It shows that the why is simply "Because I choose so".

Then again, I'm sure this argument has some holes in it. Otherwise I would have solved an age old philisophical discussion, which would be quite extraordinairy, and rather unlikely.

It's enough for me at the moment though. ;)

Sorry don't agree with the statement of it being Impossible to go against ones own values.

Reason is taught even in ROTC of all places.

It's the idea of the 3 selves. Ideal Self, Reflective Self, and Actual Self.

Ideal Self (The self you strive to be)
Reflective Self (The self of how you think others see you)
Actual Self (The self of how you believe you are currently)

If the three selves are in agreement you will back whatever the idea or action is without resignation. However if anyone of the three are in conflict you'll debate it and eventually overwrite the choice that one of the three selves tell you to do.

It's a willing omission of your own choice. A person look at it in the idea of what good for oneself, what's good for another, and what's good for a greater number. Person choosing to sacrifice himself knows the act isn't good for him yet see's the act to be for something greater then himself. The guy wouldn't want to do it but still does it, also known as the reluctant hero.

We are able to make choices but just as willing to make that choice we can defy it in that same quickness. Well unless you are a Scientologist then you're logic would be you'd be unwilling to defy it because it's admitting your mistake and that when a person admits being wrong it actually hurts them physically were they can get gravely ill.

EDIT:

Just to prove the logic of your idea wrong. That logic would fall exactly in line of the plot of "iRobot" shows 3 different aspects. it's show one following a set choice (Robots obeying their 3 laws), it shows one following a leader's command without question (New model Robots being controlled by a mainframe AI), and then shows one following by a trifecta of the 3 laws (The Robot that acts of it's own will).

The robot acting of it's own will as the story states basically has 3 warring AI's. The choice can have 1 of the 3 images refusing it can all the way up to 1.49999~ of the 3 images refusing it, the decision of what's best to do in that person mind as it currently stands is what wins out.

The question is what is the person's view of right and wrong? What has that person's environment, culture, and friends/family influenced his vision of right and wrong to be? By the fact of making that question it means a choice isn't solely his, the choices made result at the minimum by 3 controllers. Himself, Culture, and Environment if Culture and Environment push for one thing the you will do that even though you yourself may refuse it.

We are not very signular, we are individuals but our decisions and behavior are governed by more then 1 thing.

EDIT AGAIN:

Ok, noticed the "iRobot" was missing another aspect. It also show the aspect of choices derived from flawed logic. Common to an extreemist fashion (the mainfram Ai itself).

There is another quandry though to the whole thing, the rare occassions were it seems like there is only 3 controllers and 2 are saying to act 1 way and the other 1 wins out over the other two. Quite often seen in the act of a person killing another even though culture and environment are often against blantant random killing (It must have a reason or purpose).

In some of the cases after doing it and questioned why they can't answer. Though can see that after it's occured they are following what the 2 out of the 3 minimum state. So then is it that there was maybe 2 other unseen controllers that influenced this or did that 1 alone truely defy the other 2?

Sorry don't agree with the statement of it being Impossible to go against ones own values.

Reason is taught even in ROTC of all places.

It's the idea of the 3 selves. Ideal Self, Reflective Self, and Actual Self.

Ideal Self (The self you strive to be)
Reflective Self (The self of how you think others see you)
Actual Self (The self of how you believe you are currently)

If the three selves are in agreement you will back whatever the idea or action is without resignation. However if anyone of the three are in conflict you'll debate it and eventually overwrite the choice that one of the three selves tell you to do.

It's a willing omission of your own choice. A person look at it in the idea of what good for oneself, what's good for another, and what's good for a greater number. Person choosing to sacrifice himself knows the act isn't good for him yet see's the act to be for something greater then himself. The guy wouldn't want to do it but still does it, also known as the reluctant hero.

We are able to make choices but just as willing to make that choice we can defy it in that same quickness. Well unless you are a Scientologist then you're logic would be you'd be unwilling to defy it because it's admitting your mistake and that when a person admits being wrong it actually hurts them physically were they can get gravely ill.

EDIT:

Just to prove the logic of your idea wrong. That logic would fall exactly in line of the plot of "iRobot" shows 3 different aspects. it's show one following a set choice (Robots obeying their 3 laws), it shows one following a leader's command without question (New model Robots being controlled by a mainframe AI), and then shows one following by a trifecta of the 3 laws (The Robot that acts of it's own will).

The robot acting of it's own will as the story states basically has 3 warring AI's. The choice can have 1 of the 3 images refusing it can all the way up to 1.49999~ of the 3 images refusing it, the decision of what's best to do in that person mind as it currently stands is what wins out.

The question is what is the person's view of right and wrong? What has that person's environment, culture, and friends/family influenced his vision of right and wrong to be? By the fact of making that question it means a choice isn't solely his, the choices made result at the minimum by 3 controllers. Himself, Culture, and Environment if Culture and Environment push for one thing the you will do that even though you yourself may refuse it.

We are not very signular, we are individuals but our decisions and behavior are governed by more then 1 thing.

EDIT AGAIN:

Ok, noticed the "iRobot" was missing another aspect. It also show the aspect of choices derived from flawed logic. Common to an extreemist fashion (the mainfram Ai itself).

All of this argument is based on an axiom:

Ideal Self (The self you strive to be)
Reflective Self (The self of how you think others see you)
Actual Self (The self of how you believe you are currently)

That these three selves exist.

You have yet to give an argument that these theoretical selves exist in such an independent manner. Obviously I do wish to be something, there is obviously a self I am now (or see myself as), and I obviously have an idea that there is a certain way that others think of me.

However, these are all concepts. There is no given reason as to why they would be independent entities in themselves. My logic is not proven wrong by I, Robot (not "iRobot"*) because my logic does not revolve around three 'selves'. The fact is you and I have very different conceptions of the 'self' and until you can point out why three selves exist instead of one, you cannot argue that my logic is wrong. All you have succeeded in doing is point out that using your base axiom, my view is inconsistent.

This is akin to saying that a Christian's beliefs are wrong on the base axiom that the Bible is a lie. Sure, based on that axiom it's true, but that doesn't translate into an effective argument against the Christian faith. You have to first establish that THEIR axiom is false which you have not done.

You have proposed the three selves but done nothing to prove that this is in fact how the mind works, nor disproved my conception.

*- It was called I, Robot (although the i may not have been capitilized in the advertisements) named after, not the "i" series of apple creations but the short story compilation by Isaac Asimov which was far better than the movie, and something which I heartily recommend you reading.

There is another quandry though to the whole thing, the rare occassions were it seems like there is only 3 controllers and 2 are saying to act 1 way and the other 1 wins out over the other two. Quite often seen in the act of a person killing another even though culture and environment are often against blantant random killing (It must have a reason or purpose).

In some of the cases after doing it and questioned why they can't answer. Though can see that after it's occured they are following what the 2 out of the 3 minimum state. So then is it that there was maybe 2 other unseen controllers that influenced this or did that 1 alone truely defy the other 2?

This would merely be the actual, singular self, deciding not to let those two factors influence it for some reason or another. The I was refusing the environment and culture any influence because they are not selves and do not have any power other than what the self gives them.

All of this argument is based on an axiom:



That these three selves exist.

You have yet to give an argument that these theoretical selves exist in such an independent manner. Obviously I do wish to be something, there is obviously a self I am now (or see myself as), and I obviously have an idea that there is a certain way that others think of me.

However, these are all concepts. There is no given reason as to why they would be independent entities in themselves. My logic is not proven wrong by I, Robot (not "iRobot"*) because my logic does not revolve around three 'selves'. The fact is you and I have very different conceptions of the 'self' and until you can point out why three selves exist instead of one, you cannot argue that my logic is wrong. All you have succeeded in doing is point out that using your base axiom, my view is inconsistent.

This is akin to saying that a Christian's beliefs are wrong on the base axiom that the Bible is a lie. Sure, based on that axiom it's true, but that doesn't translate into an effective argument against the Christian faith. You have to first establish that THEIR axiom is false which you have not done.

You have proposed the three selves but done nothing to prove that this is in fact how the mind works, nor disproved my conception.

*- It was called I, Robot (although the i may not have been capitilized in the advertisements) named after, not the "i" series of apple creations but the short story compilation by Isaac Asimov which was far better than the movie, and something which I heartily recommend you reading.



This would merely be the actual, singular self, deciding not to let those two factors influence it for some reason or another. The I was refusing the environment and culture any influence because they are not selves and do not have any power other than what the self gives them.

The three selves prove their existance when you hear what a group sees you as. This is the 4th aspect of the three selves. It is possible for your Reflective self not to truely match how someone see's you. Often when your Reflective self does match then you are very aware to the other's around you. Proof of being aware of the others would be your ability to effectively use Tact.

The three selves prove their existance when you hear what a group sees you as. This is the 4th aspect of the three selves. It is possible for your Reflective self not to truely match how someone see's you. Often when your Reflective self does match then you are very aware to the other's around you. Proof of being aware of the others would be your ability to effectively use Tact.

But that in no way establishes that they exist as selves, I am well aware that there is a concept of how I think others see me, and how they see me, but that in no way necessitates those concepts becoming entities capable of decision making.

This would merely be the actual, singular self, deciding not to let those two factors influence it for some reason or another. The I was refusing the environment and culture any influence because they are not selves and do not have any power other than what the self gives them.

Yeah, then what if the 1 out of the 2 was not the "I" but was environment, culture, or something else?

They hold this situation in a lot of the somewhat hero's were they got a decision to kill someone else innocent or a hostage they try to protect dies, culture and himself say's it is wrong to kill yet he does it still due to the environment?

Going to say that the he himself was actually in agreement to kill someone else to protect a hostage?

Double Post Edited:
But that in no way establishes that they exist as selves, I am well aware that there is a concept of how I think others see me, and how they see me, but that in no way necessitates those concepts becoming entities capable of decision making.

Yes, it does. Everytime you refuse to do something because of a first thought being (So-and-so wouldn't approve of this). Just considering how they'd view you after an action proves it to be an entity capable of influencing the decision.

This is being proven positive in my life right know as views my brother takes defies what I already know what he wouldn't choose and what the culture he grew up it states against. It's his environment the 1 out of 3 that is winning even though the other 2 say it's wrong.

Well, what if you don't refuse to do something because someone else might disapprove of it?

I'm not talking about not doing something because it's a rule, because that's an entirely different situation. I'm just talking about not basing one's actions around what someone else would think of it.

Well, what if you don't refuse to do something because someone else might disapprove of it?

I'm not talking about not doing something because it's a rule, because that's an entirely different situation. I'm just talking about not basing one's actions around what someone else would think of it.

Same thing I stated different wording. The fact you act "because someone else might disapprove of it" proves the reflective self as an entity.

Yes, it does. Everytime you refuse to do something because of a first thought being (So-and-so wouldn't approve of this). Just considering how they'd view you after an action proves it to be an entity capable of influencing the decision.

Obviously the I is considering how they would view itself after the action, agreed?

So then the I decides how to act with that consideration in mind.

If an entity is a thing capable of independent decision making process, I fail to see how that enters into the above thought process other than as the I which is considering the reaction of someone else.

Double Post Edited:
Same thing I stated different wording. The fact you act "because someone else might disapprove of it" proves the reflective self as an entity.

I'm afraid you are mixing up something. They aren't acting BECAUSE someone might dissaprove they are acting REGARDLESS.

Same thing I stated different wording. The fact you act "because someone else might disapprove of it" proves the reflective self as an entity.

See, no. What I meant was "What if I don't take what others will think of this" into consideration at all?

i was in the dune, one time and the leader got tired of dunes and decided on going to korro
and yes i'm all for korro XP instead of dunes, so 2 of the other PT memebers were like..."no thats too far?" i was like omg...-_-

in conclusion
dunes suck
Korro ftw xD

This topic opened at page 3. WTF is going on lol.

To answer the topics title (which is probably actually OT to the thread by now), people go to the Dunes because it's the best place to get a party. People are generally short with their playing times in the early lvls, so it's nice to have everyone in one place.

If you think about, the Dunes is a really nice XP ground. It's good for alot of levels, and there's many safe camps. There can be overcrowding, but I haven't seen that lately. I think most of the problems with the Dunes is the fact that the players suck (they may be new, but they still suck), not with the Dunes itself. It's a good xp zone.

Are we back on topic yet? I don't think the OP was being a fanboy for pointing out these areas are empty outside JP prime time. I am in Australia, basically the same timezone as Japan. I have been in plenty of Japanese parties in the dunes, and the two times I went to Korraloka(sp?) was with English players. Yet those two times were during JP prime time, and the place is usually empty outside of this.

I have been through Korrokola twice, once on Paladin and again on Ranger, probably two of the silliest jobs to fight worms against. We didn't need a tank or puller for worms, I basically DDed on both jobs, where if I'd taken them through the Dunes, I would have learnt pulling and tanking a whole lot better. Korrokola isn't always the best, even if the xp/hour is better. Both times I made 6 levels in around three or four hours, which might be possible in the dunes (though I've never experienced it), but it is easy off the worms.

I noticed someone state that Full Force Blow hurts. This has only been true for me when I fought worms in Maze of Shakhrami when I was lv. 10. Outside of that equipping right for your targeted enemy works wonders. Once I got my equipped with all the +stone equipment Full Force Blow was more like a Full Force Tap a whooping 30 damage when each hit is doing 15-20.
Take note that Barstone and Barstonra are two of the earliest rdm/whm spells (level 5 I think), and work wonders here, and stack with your +stone gear. It helps earth-based spell resistance as well as full force.

Everyone talks about the pain of getting to Bastok. If its your first job, sure, but if you can get to Valkrum you can get to Bastok. If you have the airship, tele-crystals and/or chocopass, how is it harder to get to than Valkrum? If anything its easier to get to from Jeuno, as is Carpenters Landing.

I have been through Korrokola twice, once on Paladin and again on Ranger, probably two of the silliest jobs to fight worms against. We didn't need a tank or puller for worms, I basically DDed on both jobs, where if I'd taken them through the Dunes, I would have learnt pulling and tanking a whole lot better. Korrokola isn't always the best, even if the xp/hour is better. Both times I made 6 levels in around three or four hours, which might be possible in the dunes (though I've never experienced it), but it is easy off the worms.Not that you don't make a really good point, but Worms are excellent mobs for RNG to level on. Even without a party. Actually, especially without a party.

I consider anyone who has not yet reached L50 with a single job a newbie. Past L50 I expect anyone I PT with to know how to play their job. Sadly it doesn't always go like that. Thus most newbies do have sub jobs.

ITT Maju is superior. In the future drop the elitist attitude. You said yourself in that quote right there that levels do not matter, which completely defeats the entire point of that statement. Lurk moar.

i was in the dune, one time and the leader got tired of dunes and decided on going to korro
and yes i'm all for korro XP instead of dunes, so 2 of the other PT memebers were like..."no thats too far?" i was like omg...-_-This is a valid complaint. Since at low levels there is so little required to level up people will log on to get a party when they only have a little while to play. The 20 minute walk and dealing with aggro from Selbina to Korroloka can significantly cut into playtime.

Last time I was in Korroloka the EXP sucked anyway.

ITT Maju is superior. In the future drop the elitist attitude. You said yourself in that quote right there that levels do not matter, which completely defeats the entire point of that statement. Lurk moar.

Where did I say levels don't matter? What elititst attitude? Please elaborate.

Can everyone stop posting garbage please?

The OP has his opinions. Sure they're very generalised and his personality is highly caustic but not everyone is agreeable.

Let's put this thread to rest and level our low level jobs where we please.

Wow, who'd of though the dunes were so philosophical?

Wow, who'd of though the dunes were so philosophical?

Actually I think the dunes themselves are more theological. Every time I go through I wonder:

Is this what hell is like?

Thank goodness it's only a temporary levelling spot.

Can everyone stop posting garbage please?

I'm confused as to what garbage you are referring to. If you clarify we might possibly be able to help you take it out so it can be collected. ;)

ITT Maju is superior. In the future drop the elitist attitude. You said yourself in that quote right there that levels do not matter, which completely defeats the entire point of that statement. Lurk moar.

I understand you were addressing Maju, but in the interest of keeping up with the thread, could you clarify what you are saying here? I'm afraid I just don't get it.

Where did I say levels don't matter? What elititst attitude? Please elaborate.

Anyone under level 50 is a newb, right? Those who are over 50 should know their job, and not be newbs. You said that people who are over 50 still don't know what's going on, which kills your overcritical generalization. Now what does this tell us? Either you're a retard magnet, or your observation is flawed. If it's the former, then I'm sorry. But if it's the latter, then you need to remove your head from your ass. I mean no offense, but that's what I gathered from your earlier post.

As for the topic at hand, Valkurm is newb school. That's where we learn how to make proper macros and new Warriors ask the question "How do I used Provoke?" as well as being the place where all melee classes should start learning what a skillchain is, and mages should learn what an MB is. Korroloka is a little bit advanced for most new players, most of whom are unfamiliar with a moving party setup.

Anyone under level 50 is a newb, right? Those who are over 50 should know their job, and not be newbs. You said that people who are over 50 still don't know what's going on, which kills your overcritical generalization. Now what does this tell us? Either you're a retard magnet, or your observation is flawed. If it's the former, then I'm sorry. But if it's the latter, then you need to remove your head from your ass. I mean no offense, but that's what I gathered from your earlier post.

You are confusing a normative and descriptive claim here. Maju is arguing that those over 50 should know how to play their job (in other words Maju expects them to, not necessarily out of observation but out of obligation), but that unfortunately whether they ought to know their job or not is irrelevant and there are still those that do not, in fact, know their jobs.

Just because something is a certain way does not disqualify that it should be another way.

You are confusing a normative and descriptive claim here. Maju is arguing that those over 50 should know how to play their job (in other words Maju expects them to, not necessarily out of observation but out of obligation), but that unfortunately whether they ought to know their job or not is irrelevant and there are still those that do not, in fact, know their jobs.

Just because something is a certain way does not disqualify that it should be another way.

Orly? 50+ shouldn't be newbs, but they are, which makes everything I just spent time typing completely pointless is what I gathered from what I quoted. I am of the opinion that your character's level has nothing to do with how much or how little you know about the game. You know what I used to get during LS discussion about things that are entirely based on theory? "STFU newb, you're not high level, you don't know what any of this is about." Even though they don't know either. Screw that attitude, it's far too prevalent ingame and on every single Forum dedicated to this game.

This entire topic started by calling out every single new NA player, slapping them in the face and calling them ignorant. I'm not trying to defend new players because I know alot of them to be misinformed, but how else are they to know where to go when there's LSes ingame that shun newer people and flame them for trying to learn? If Maju really wanted to do something about this, he'd be ingame right now trying to encourage people to go to different, better exp areas. I guarantee that the majority of his personal experience with people bitching about going to places that aren't the "norm" are from maybe two experiences.

One other thing that needs to be addressed I already mentioned above, and that is the "high levels" who pass on information as if it were divine mandate. Newer players tend to believe the lvl 75 RNG in their LS who hasn't leveled a lower job in 8 months over someone who they never met who actually knows what they're talking about. I used to make parties in the maze of Shakhrami all the time, and they rocked, but now that zone is devoid of life save for Argus campers. The problem here is not NA players being stubborn and ignorant, it's high level players in their Linkshells who drill crappy information into their heads.

Orly? 50+ shouldn't be newbs, but they are, which makes everything I just spent time typing completely pointless is what I gathered from what I quoted.

Let us analyze a previous statement, shall we?

Past L50 I expect anyone I PT with to know how to play their job. Sadly it doesn't always go like that.

Now, let us adjust to what was the real meaning:

Orly? 50+ shouldn't be newbs, but they [sometimes] are, which makes everything I just spent time typing completely pointless

Now, that second clause really doesn't seem to follow does it? You argue that people shouldn't have an elitist attitude. It does, however, appear that certain people do (from your opinion), this does not actually make your statement meaningless does it? I assume not, as you just wrote exactly that down in the second half of your post. To exemplify, I shall rephrase:

Orly? NAs and other players shouldn't be elitist, but they sometimes/often are, which makes everything I just spent time typing completely pointless

Please, there is no need to be so vitriolic.


I am of the opinion that your character's level has nothing to do with how much or how little you know about the game. You know what I used to get during LS discussion about things that are entirely based on theory? "STFU newb, you're not high level, you don't know what any of this is about." Even though they don't know either. Screw that attitude, it's far too prevalent ingame and on every single Forum dedicated to this game

Well, I agree an elitist attitude is wrong, and can be pretty prevalent (which is somewhat disgruntling) and am sorry you got mistreated like you did. The problem is, I think you're extrapolating a bit much from what Maju posted and are incorrectly assuming that they hold the same elitist attitude that has troubled you in the past.

Well, I agree an elitist attitude is wrong, and can be pretty prevalent (which is somewhat disgruntling) and am sorry you got mistreated like you did. The problem is, I think you're extrapolating a bit much from what Maju posted and are incorrectly assuming that they hold the same elitist attitude that has troubled you in the past.

All I have to go on are posts and topics, much like this one. Sure, I assumed. But that's all the interweb allows. Speaking of which, here's an assumption. In my earlier post I italicised a sentence. This was not my opinion, but a quick summary of what I could remember from the previous quote. You already knew that though, which is why you decided to rub it in my face. There's an assumption for you. Yeah, I know. It's wrong. I'm aware that I'm incorrect in thinking that. Oh shi-

In all seriousness, the way I see things is that all high level players are elitist pricks until proven otherwise. I don't go out of my way to talk to them, I don't act like a jerk toward them, I just do my own thing. More often than not I've been right in that assumption. There's been far too many incidents during the time I've played for me to have an optimistic attitude toward anyone in general. I don't talk much as a result.

Newbie = an inexperienced player. Your competence as a player does necessarily not have anything to do with experience. Thus an excellent player, who has yet to reach L50 is still a newbie.

Speaking of which, here's an assumption. In my earlier post I italicised a sentence. This was not my opinion, but a quick summary of what I could remember from the previous quote. You already knew that though, which is why you decided to rub it in my face. There's an assumption for you. Yeah, I know. It's wrong. I'm aware that I'm incorrect in thinking that. Oh shi-

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just a bit drowsy, but I couldn't quite make out what you were trying to say here. Could you elaborate?

Also, it was not my intention to rub anything in anyone's face, I was only trying to indicate that there was a problem in your argument against Maju's statement, and perhaps your criticism or interpretation were somehow misguided.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just a bit drowsy, but I couldn't quite make out what you were trying to say here. Could you elaborate?

Your last post centered around that particular sentence, and I was just being an ass when I wrote that.

Also, it was not my intention to rub anything in anyone's face, I was only trying to indicate that there was a problem in your argument against Maju's statement, and perhaps your criticism or interpretation were somehow misguided.

I'm well aware of problems with my argument, I do not need you to inform me of them. Unlike most people, I consider what I'm saying before it's said. Of course, that doesn't always mean I refrain from saying it.

Newbie = an inexperienced player. Your competence as a player does necessarily not have anything to do with experience. Thus an excellent player, who has yet to reach L50 is still a newbie.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. The world is now safe once again due to your heroic efforts. There is nothing on the entire intarweb that says anything about Level 50 being the point where every player magically isn't a newb. You stop being a newb when you get yourself together and play smart, not when you complete G1.

I'm well aware of problems with my argument, I do not need you to inform me of them. Unlike most people, I consider what I'm saying before it's said. Of course, that doesn't always mean I refrain from saying it.

Well I'm wondering why you choose to throw illegitimate criticisms at people when you are aware of their fallacious nature.

That aside, when you do decide to post your arguments, unless you post a segment discussing your awareness of your own argument's problems, it is usually assumed that you are posting them with the opinion that they are for the most part correct and accurate.

Well I'm wondering why you choose to throw illegitimate criticisms at people when you are aware of their fallacious nature.

I blame the schools. Actually, I blame the fact that I find arguments on the internet to be hilarious. I find humor in alot of mundane things.

That aside, when you do decide to post your arguments, unless you post a segment discussing your awareness of your own argument's problems, it is usually assumed that you are posting them with the opinion that they are for the most part correct and accurate.

lol, assumption. See? It's funny to me, I don't know why. If you and I were talking face to face you'd see exactly what I've been getting at and probably have a laugh too.

I blame the schools. Actually, I blame the fact that I find arguments on the internet to be hilarious. I find humor in alot of mundane things.



lol, assumption. See? It's funny to me, I don't know why. If you and I were talking face to face you'd see exactly what I've been getting at and probably have a laugh too.

Well, I hope you enjoy your laughs. Goodness knows I enjoy mine.

Assumptions are one of the most common things made by human beings, they're pretty much unavoidable. You just have to avoid the unreasonable ones.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. The world is now safe once again due to your heroic efforts. There is nothing on the entire intarweb that says anything about Level 50 being the point where every player magically isn't a newb. You stop being a newb when you get yourself together and play smart, not when you complete G1.

Actually there has been statements before in the past of when the game knowledge starts presenting itself in the players (Purely observational of course). The start of US release it was around lv. 20 once you pass that you had an understanding of much of the game's functions and process.

The first raise after that was after the Christmas rush in which the players having good game knowledge was judged to be around 30. As new content got added and pace started ramping up of the new content the level for game knowledge advanced to 40, then 50, and currently debated between 50 and 60.

I've never really participated in those debates, because as I stated their basis are to much of a person's visual perspective agreed upon by a group.

Sorry to detract from the conversation but.....

Newbie = an inexperienced player. Your competence as a player does necessarily not have anything to do with experience. Thus an excellent player, who has yet to reach L50 is still a newbie.

Maju by your reasoning everyone is a newbie from level 1 to level 75 regardless of the job they are levelling. Every single level brings new experiences and new aspects to the game whether its in the form of a new job ability, levelling zone or just a few more hp/mp to aid you. So the only possible way of not being a newbie is to level every job to 75, delete your character and then start again.

You are persistant in forcing your belief of people in Valkurm being newbies. Now given that alot of jobs in the valkurm levels are very similar in their style of play someone returning to the zone on their 3rd of 4th visit could be regarded as being experienced. So they would know which mobs to fight, what aggros to what and where the best camp spots are. This person could in turn be a complete Kor tunnel newbie and therefore be unwilling to venture out to a place that may or may not provide better experience.

On a good day with an average party that has dunes experience but no Kor tunnel experience, they are more likely to make better xp in VD.

You are persistant in forcing your belief of people in Valkurm being newbies. Now given that alot of jobs in the valkurm levels are very similar in their style of play someone returning to the zone on their 3rd of 4th visit could be regarded as being experienced. So they would know which mobs to fight, what aggros to what and where the best camp spots are. This person could in turn be a complete Kor tunnel newbie and therefore be unwilling to venture out to a place that may or may not provide better experience.

On a good day with an average party that has dunes experience but no Kor tunnel experience, they are more likely to make better xp in VD.

Can understand players being nervous to try an area they are unfamiliar with for EXP'ing. I can't agree with their down right refusal to try it though. For me it's more of a display of them lacking an exploring nature, so in essence not playing the game for just the simple sake of experiencing it. More playing the game in attempt to reach some form of bragging right to rub in people's faces.

Nature of such presents itself when you see how many of the stuck up high levels and the quantity of them being the similar quantity that refused to try new areas (Stating by my own statistical observation of players I know in game). In game I'm a very big social creature, my tells and communication in last adventurer stats was peaking near 4 mil.

I refrain some adding silly quotes or something for every action I do. So communication resulting from announcing party pertinant data is at a minimum. The people that log on during the time I generally do I've talked to a large quantity of them and have blist a large quantity out of some bad differences of opinion the two of us would have (Blisted all up till it seemed to of break on me, can't add more and can't seem to remove them).

More playing the game in attempt to reach some form of bragging right to rub in people's faces.

Or just for the sense of accomplishment. Bear in mind that that motivation doesn't necessitate bragging.

Or just for the sense of accomplishment. Bear in mind that that motivation doesn't necessitate bragging.

But more often then not it does. What sense of accomplishment is there really to do the same run of the mill thing that many before you have already done? Depends greatly on your views and how your culture guided you. My families culture always strives for new thing or taken the path less traveled. Probably explains why all my aunt's, uncle's, and grandparents are big on inventions. Some of them even working in the technical development area.

For me and the culture I'm around a sense of accomplishment is acheiving your own path and having fun in the journey. Not just shooting to reach the journey's end and considering the end solely as the acomplishment.

Really what acomplishment is there if you reach the top but have abandoned everything and everyone in the process?

Can understand players being nervous to try an area they are unfamiliar with for EXP'ing. I can't agree with their down right refusal to try it though. For me it's more of a display of them lacking an exploring nature, so in essence not playing the game for just the simple sake of experiencing it. More playing the game in attempt to reach some form of bragging right to rub in people's faces.

I wasn't saying they "refuse" to try other areas but more along the lines of wanting to get from x level to y level in the quickest possible manner given that they have already experienced those level numerous times before and as everyone often says "the dunes are hell".

To be honest I would actually say Kor Tunnel present less of an explorational challenge than the dunes. As Maju said "Its in Bastok". Pretty boring to get there really.

Nature of such presents itself when you see how many of the stuck up high levels and the quantity of them being the similar quantity that refused to try new areas (Stating by my own statistical observation of players I know in game).

I whole heartedly agree with this. The overall shift towards level 75 for the vast majority of players has led to an increase in snobbish behaviour. The mentality of "I've got this, this and this to 75 so I know what I'm doing" is prevalent in the majority of parties these days, with players refusing to accept advice even when given by someone who has more experience at the particular job they are currently playing.

As I said to my friend earlier tonight after a party member opened the whole "Dia cancels Bio debate"......

"Getting rank 10 is like a holiday to Blackpool, put your brain in the fridge before you go."

But more often then not it does. What sense of accomplishment is there really to do the same run of the mill thing that many before you have already done? Depends greatly on your views and how your culture guided you. My families culture always strives for new thing or taken the path less traveled. Probably explains why all my aunt's, uncle's, and grandparents are big on inventions. Some of them even working in the technical development area.

For me and the culture I'm around a sense of accomplishment is acheiving your own path and having fun in the journey. Not just shooting to reach the journey's end and considering the end solely as the acomplishment.

Well, it's hard for me to explain really. Sometimes it's my motivation. I see something I want to achieve and go for it. The path there doesn't need to be fun or interesting. Usually it's less specifically "I'm happy because I accomplished something" and more "I accomplished this thing". Why they accomplished that thing can be from varied motivations.

Really what acomplishment is there if you reach the top but have abandoned everything and everyone in the process?

But is that necessary to accomplish something? Don't mistake it for an Ends-justify-the-means attitude.

I wasn't saying they "refuse" to try other areas but more along the lines of wanting to get from x level to y level in the quickest possible manner given that they have already experienced those level numerous times before and as everyone often says "the dunes are hell".

To be honest I would actually say Kor Tunnel present less of an explorational challenge than the dunes. As Maju said "Its in Bastok". Pretty boring to get there really.

I know but I like to exadurate the stated conditions sometimes. A player may be familiar with the dunes and so feel it to be the best exp method, but not even attempting to the spot a shot is still a refusal. Even when a statement is made that they can make more exp there which in essence is "to get from x level to y level in the quickest possible manner" it may not be that they already experienced leveling in that area.

Really though in the case of korroloka tunnel and the Maze were you have tunnels of non aggressive mobs, you can easily pick off the exp mobs. With less worry of bad links, and other troubles that occure in the dunes.

Double Post Edited:

But is that necessary to accomplish something? Don't mistake it for an Ends-justify-the-means attitude.

You just did that though:

Well, it's hard for me to explain really. Sometimes it's my motivation. I see something I want to achieve and go for it. The path there doesn't need to be fun or interesting. Usually it's less specifically "I'm happy because I accomplished something" and more "I accomplished this thing". Why they accomplished that thing can be from varied motivations.

You just stated that the path doesn't matter as long as you reached the end as the acomplishment.

Double Post Edited:

But is that necessary to accomplish something? Don't mistake it for an Ends-justify-the-means attitude.

You just did that though:

Well, it's hard for me to explain really. Sometimes it's my motivation. I see something I want to achieve and go for it. The path there doesn't need to be fun or interesting. Usually it's less specifically "I'm happy because I accomplished something" and more "I accomplished this thing". Why they accomplished that thing can be from varied motivations.

You just stated that the path doesn't matter as long as you reached the end as the acomplishment.

No, I stated how fun it was and how interesting it was didn't matter, not that the path itself was irrelevant.

Just because I don't care if it is fun or interesting doesn't mean I'm about to disregard people for the purpose of the accomplishment. Therefore the ends do not necessarily justify the means.

Even when a statement is made that they can make more exp there which in essence is "to get from x level to y level in the quickest possible manner" it may not be that they already experienced leveling in that area.

If we are talking about the experience session as a whole, I contend that Kor tunnel and the maze do not yield faster experience to a pickup party.

Think about it, low level players have very few travel options. Even if they have a chocobo licence they can only use the stables in a starter nation. You have to find party members in some sort of centralised location so for arguments sake we'll say Jeuno. They can't take chocobos from Jeuno so they'll have to get a teleport-dem. From there they have to run through Gustaberg to Bastok, into the mines and down into Kor Tunnel. Find a spot to start levelling, assuming of course someone had the foresight to make sure the area had only a couple of parties there already.

Only after all this can they actually gain some experience. Now in the dunes its simplier. Everyone is already congrigated there. You grab what you can for a party get to a spot and level. The whole process is so much faster, eventhough you may make less xp per hour than Kor tunnel, you haven't spent the first hour getting everything sorted and finding your xp location.

Also a side point most people forget is deaths. They happen no matter how experienced the players are. In Kor tunnel you can aggro bats from lower down or fall off the ledge into trouble. Now I know that a death and a home-point at those levels don't even make a dent in your xp but how often do people sit waiting for a raise regardless of their hp being 2 steps away?

The dunes is constantly full of activity with players heading for Selbina or Gustav tunnel not to mention the absurd number of powerlevellers making some easy gil. Its far easier to get that raise in VD than Kor.

Well I'm not sure how much help I'll be to the discussion, but I've had the gme for almost a week now, and late last night I was feeling adventurous and decided not to wait for a party to escort me to the dunes from Bastok. I found myself a map and made the walk myself, and I've got to say it was quite a learning experience. If nothing else, the journey to Valkurm showed me exactly why it was necesary to train as a party instead of solo; the enemies were WAY harder than I had imagined.

Once I got to the dunes, I saw a bunch of folks standing around that all had a very strange looking linkshell... a green question mark? I quickly discovered that these were folks looking to join parties! I was quickly able to find a party (at 3 AM), that comprised mostly of other beginnners who were even lower-leveled than myself (I was level 11). I think we consisted of a Lv. 10 TaruTaru Monk, a Lv. 14 Hume Warrior, 2 Lvl 11 RDMs (Myself as 1 of them), a Lv. 10 Taru BLM, and a Lv. 10 Taru WHM. I was surprised to see so many Tarus at the Dunes, because it looks like quite a long trip to make when I looked on the Region Map.

All of us gained great XP, currently I'm about 1000 points shy of Lv. 14 after about 2.5 hours of playing last night. I learned alot as well! I learned that I was a pretty crappy RDM, my Elemental was around 13, my Enfeebling was 14, Dark was 3, and Heal was 1, whereas the other RDM had most of his magic skill points up in the mid 20s. I had definitely been relying too much on my sword! By the end of the night though, most of my skills were nearly double what they had been, and my spells were becoming much more potent, and I found that the various Goblins in the area were able to resist my enfeebling magic less and less often!

But wait there's more! I also learned how to make macros! What a cool thing that is. I quickly found out how valuable they were in communicating quickly with the rest of my party, especially the other RDM, since we often attempted to cast the same enfeebling magics. I made a macro specifying which person I was about to heal for instance, so that the other RDM or the WHM wouldn't waste their mana by casting a 2nd time, and the other RDM and I found a great way to trade information about which enfeebles we were casting, so as to cut down on wasted MP bewteen us. The result was that the other RDM and I developed a great pattern, and it really helped move the fights along more quickly b/c we were both able to start nuking earlier in the fight as a result.

All in all, I think the above sort of describes why Valkurm is so popular.... most of us were first timers to party-leveling and first-timers in the dunes, but we were able to trade what information we had to each other and help each other out, and we had great success. And the rate of XP gain is nothing short of incredible. Everyone seems to know where the dunes are, how to get there, and at least has some idea of how things work once you get there. I learned alot by jumping right in, and from what it sounds like, the other regions aren't really so populated as the dunes, which to me, says that it would be harder to learn the ropes.

Sorry for the long post!

Well I'm not sure how much help I'll be to the discussion, but I've had the gme for almost a week now, and late last night I was feeling adventurous and decided not to wait for a party to escort me to the dunes from Bastok. I found myself a map and made the walk myself, and I've got to say it was quite a learning experience. If nothing else, the journey to Valkurm showed me exactly why it was necesary to train as a party instead of solo; the enemies were WAY harder than I had imagined.

Once I got to the dunes, I saw a bunch of folks standing around that all had a very strange looking linkshell... a green question mark? I quickly discovered that these were folks looking to join parties! I was quickly able to find a party (at 3 AM), that comprised mostly of other beginnners who were even lower-leveled than myself (I was level 11). I think we consisted of a Lv. 10 TaruTaru Monk, a Lv. 14 Hume Warrior, 2 Lvl 11 RDMs (Myself as 1 of them), a Lv. 10 Taru BLM, and a Lv. 10 Taru WHM. I was surprised to see so many Tarus at the Dunes, because it looks like quite a long trip to make when I looked on the Region Map.

All of us gained great XP, currently I'm about 1000 points shy of Lv. 14 after about 2.5 hours of playing last night. I learned alot as well! I learned that I was a pretty crappy RDM, my Elemental was around 13, my Enfeebling was 14, Dark was 3, and Heal was 1, whereas the other RDM had most of his magic skill points up in the mid 20s. I had definitely been relying too much on my sword! By the end of the night though, most of my skills were nearly double what they had been, and my spells were becoming much more potent, and I found that the various Goblins in the area were able to resist my enfeebling magic less and less often!

But wait there's more! I also learned how to make macros! What a cool thing that is. I quickly found out how valuable they were in communicating quickly with the rest of my party, especially the other RDM, since we often attempted to cast the same enfeebling magics. I made a macro specifying which person I was about to heal for instance, so that the other RDM or the WHM wouldn't waste their mana by casting a 2nd time, and the other RDM and I found a great way to trade information about which enfeebles we were casting, so as to cut down on wasted MP bewteen us. The result was that the other RDM and I developed a great pattern, and it really helped move the fights along more quickly b/c we were both able to start nuking earlier in the fight as a result.

All in all, I think the above sort of describes why Valkurm is so popular.... most of us were first timers to party-leveling and first-timers in the dunes, but we were able to trade what information we had to each other and help each other out, and we had great success. And the rate of XP gain is nothing short of incredible. Everyone seems to know where the dunes are, how to get there, and at least has some idea of how things work once you get there. I learned alot by jumping right in, and from what it sounds like, the other regions aren't really so populated as the dunes, which to me, says that it would be harder to learn the ropes.

Sorry for the long post!

That was a very good post, it contributed, and welcome to the forums (I also see it was your first post)!

This is a valuable insight into the mindset of exactly the person in question, thank you for your time! (^_^)

Szkol, welcome to Vana'Diel.

I hope that this good attitude of yours remain for the whole stint of your adventure here.

As for the dunes, I like to go there and chat with some lowbies when I party. It is a pretty good place to get to know people. You get to see who is going to be noobs, and who is not. (Remember, noobs are not newbies.)

Hello Szkol,
It's nice to hear that you had a good experience in the dunes, thank you for sharing it with us. I think your post is the exact answer to Maju's question, its honest, has some very good observations and clearly as a first timer you haven't been tainted by the "xp grind" like the rest of us.

Anyway I hope you continue to have good experiences and enjoy the game. Red mage is a great job (I'm one myself :cool: ) and its lots of fun.


I was surprised to see so many Tarus at the Dunes, because it looks like quite a long trip to make when I looked on the Region Map.

Hehe not all taru are from Windurst ;)

Hehe not all taru are from Windurst ;)

Yes they are.. the others are just spies we've sent out to infiltrate the ranks of other nations so truly shall Windurst dominate the plains and mountains and seas of Vana'diel!

Back on topic...

I like the Dunes... Sure, you get n00bs. Lots of n00bs. But you get decent people too... I've made more friends who've been friends my entire FFXI career through that place than anywhere else (even my LS was founded from that place).

The place was where I first learned to skillchain, first saw really the benefits of partying, first learned about MB's, first learned to pull... first for everything.

I've had awesome party's at Korro, and some ill fated ones there too... I've had awesome party's at VD, and ill fated ones too...

I'm not going to say JP this or NA that or EU the other... because everyone knows EU are just cool, even if we're not ubar! Good leaders can pick good camps with good people, and make the most of any situations, and bad leaders can't. Good players can react and support and communicate and listen - and each locale has merit and flaw.

If I see a group in Valkurm - and can build something decent around them... I know the camps and routes to take to make a good party there. Why should I want to drag people to Korro, knowing that odds are, they won't be able to travel there as fast or safely as me, would risk dying, would lose gaming time... just because... it's a better camp when the camps available are good enough?

This isn't the higher levels where you need thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of exp per level. A moderate party at this level will net you 4 - 6k an hour, which is a fair level or two over the duration of an average party. In Valkurm, good is just that, good.. it's not meripo level exp, but it shouldn't need to be... you're not 75, but people definately seem in a rush to be there yesterday.

Why Valkurm, because it's a sunny beach resort instead of a dank cave - that's why. Sun > Darkness... and I need to work on my tan.

clearly as a first timer you haven't been tainted by the "xp grind" like the rest of us.




....sigh I wish that were true. I can safely say that I'm new to the XP grind in FFXI, but certainly not new to the XP grind in general. At least in FFXI it FUN... and even if you do get bored grinding there's a very simple solution... change jobs! The last MMO I played did not allow for that option, and I think that's one thing that really makes FFXI stand out from any other game I've ever played. The solution before was always to start a new char.... and though I haven't had occasion to switch jobs yet, I rather think I'll enjoy it.

Anyways, another thing I learned playing yesterday, there's quite an assortment of equipment to choose from. I'm afraid mine was woefully sub-par, so After I made it to Lv. 15 yesterday I walked all the way back to Bastok and spent about every cent I had. I think I'm going to have to spend a few days there synthing/selling copper ingots so I won't have to worry about cash whereever I go.

I also learned that different enfeebles are better depending on what sort of party you're in. I used to do a sort of cookie cutter assortment of spells at the beginning of every fight: Bind, Blind, and Bio, then on to nuking or healing. Apprently Dia is better than Bio (?) and I shouldn't be Binding, instead I should Paralyze(?). I don't have it all worked out yet, but I was told by some pretty high-leveled folks who were working on their low-level jobs in the Dunes. It's nice to see that not only newbies go there, but also that the high-leveled folks too, and they were very welcoming and helpful!

I also learned that different enfeebles are better depending on what sort of party you're in. I used to do a sort of cookie cutter assortment of spells at the beginning of every fight: Bind, Blind, and Bio, then on to nuking or healing. Apprently Dia is better than Bio (?) and I shouldn't be Binding, instead I should Paralyze(?). I don't have it all worked out yet, but I was told by some pretty high-leveled folks who were working on their low-level jobs in the Dunes. It's nice to see that not only newbies go there, but also that the high-leveled folks too, and they were very welcoming and helpful!
Good to hear you've been having a positive experience there!

In case your parties didn't tell you why you should and shouldn't cast certain enfeebles...

Bio is DoT and lowers the mob's attack. Dia is DoT and lowers the mob's defense. They don't stack, and Bio overpowers Dia (meaning once Bio is on the mob, there's no way to get Dia on it). In general, a mob having lower attack only benefits one person at a time (whoever it's attacking). But lower defense means everyone hits harder, so it dies faster. In most cases, Dia will end up causing less curing needed overall, and really, that's the whole point of enfeebling: Spend a few MP on Dia so you don't have to spend several more MP curing.

Bind only holds the mob in one place. Your melee and tanks will be doing that anyway. The only time it's going to run around is if the tank loses hate (which does happen), but by the time that happens, bind has almost always worn off, and takes too long to recast compared to the tank and/or melee doing something to get hate back.

Paralyze occasionally completely stops a mob's actions. Instead of attacking, it will just stand there for that round. On most enemies, Paralyze kicks in often enough that it is definitely worth casting. It's especially sweet when Paralyze kicks in on a mob's TP move like Bomb Toss (though that's kind of rare).

When you get them, Slow and Gravity are also excellent. And Silence for mage mobs (in the Dunes, that's Goblin Gamblers and Goblin Leechers).

As insightfull as Szkol's experience was, I do have to point out most of the macro learning stuff and party experience generally happens around 10-13 anyways. Some people experience it earlier, but no matter what job you do once you hit lv. 7 there is a clear difference in the solo performance.

Also to point out his experience is an after the US community started the whole dunes thing. Obviously heard that dunes was the place to go and so followed the crowed. To gain about 2.6 levels in 2.5 hrs is fairly normal for Dunes, my first time playing and experience was in the maze between my 10-20 levels.

I learned how to make macro's there and with the party members I had could evaluate how I was doing to how they were doing. The difference was even with no experience at first of the maze I had made 3 levels in 1.5 hrs. The one thing not learned in maze is the idea of setting up a camp and having 1 person pulling the mobs to you.

Really though pulling is so easy it is one of the few things that takes time to learn. You can build it up to do some sick tricks with pulling. Like being able to pull a mob while sustaining invis long enough to get past another mob that'll sight aggro you, or even doing this with sneak. It's easier said then done especially without gravity on the mob. That kind of pulling tricks are hardly need to know, most people that pull mobs never even practice to that level.

Double Post Edited:
No, I stated how fun it was and how interesting it was didn't matter, not that the path itself was irrelevant.

Just because I don't care if it is fun or interesting doesn't mean I'm about to disregard people for the purpose of the accomplishment. Therefore the ends do not necessarily justify the means.

I stated that you did make the Ends-justify-the-means attitude in that as long as you reach the end weather you had fun in doing it or not didn't matter.

You did put that attitude in there just it wasn't to as extreem a point as I put as abandoning everything and everyone.

Double Post Edited:


I stated that you did make the Ends-justify-the-means attitude in that as long as you reach the end weather you had fun in doing it or not didn't matter.

You did put that attitude in there just it wasn't to as extreem a point as I put as abandoning everything and everyone.

Let's clarify a little something.

When I say Ends-justify-the-means attitude I mean the ends really justify the means, no matter what the means involve and without exception. Otherwise it would logically follow that, in fact, the means have supreme veto power over the ends (although this overriding factor does not necessarily come into play.)

An ends-justify-the-means attitude is (when I say it), as you phrased it, when you reach the means even at the expense of abandoning everyone and everthing. If reaching the ends by doing so is illegitimate in the motivation being described then it is quite obvious that the means are ultimately the largest deciding factor there is.

However, if you want to specify, then yes, the ends (achievement) do justify the means not being particularly fun for me.

I don't see that as a problem at all. It's a matter of taste in motivation and has hardly any effect on anyone beyond me (or others that share a similiar motivational attitude)

the means have supreme veto power over the ends (although this overriding factor does not necessarily come into play.)

clarify that, as it sound you just agreed that the means is more important then the end. Then parenthesis it stating even though means is more important it doesn't come into play? :huh:

clarify that, as it sound you just agreed that the means is more important then the end. Then parenthesis it stating even though means is more important it doesn't come into play? :huh:

It doesn't necessarily come into play, meaning just because I have a goal and pursue it does not mean I am going to be using means that would override the motivation to achieve the ends.

For instance, let's say that I want a million gil.

Why? Well I've never had that much in my life (in one lump sum at least) and I think it would be sorta neat. This is the end, and I would like to achieve it.

Now, it's very possible I could run out to Giddeus and farm Beehive Chips for this end. It would very likely be dull and uninteresting, however the end in this case is more important than how much I enjoy getting there.

On the other hand, I could try and scam gil of