When to stop subbing drg?

[Bishop]

I know jump and wyvern earrings are useful, but when does drg sub outlive it's usefullness? Or does it ever? Its hard to let go of 5% haste...

[Omni]

i would think at the very latest...50. war double attack is just too hot.

[Bishop]

Ahh yes, I completely overlooked double attack >< Thanks.

[Spinnthrift]

There were some parses a while back of a lvl 75 Mnk/Drg outdamaging a similarly equipped Mnk/War a while back of Allakhazam.

I do believe they were laughed out of the forums though for daring to support something else.

IIRC, they were explaining how Kick attacks were able to proc on Jump/High Jump and subsequently netted a higher TP return overall than /War Double Attack, although I believe they were using Brutal Earring for Double Attack and had some rather snacky gear otherwise.

I think the range that Drg goes back to being viable after /War gets double attack is the post 60 and post 70 range when you get Acc Up and High Jump to shed hate so you can push the hate line further.

[Bishop]

Hmmm, but double attack does proc quite often. However, the hate reset would be VERY useful for mnk though. If you put merit into double attack, would /drg still be better than /war? Or does mnk/drg completley outdmg mnk/war without a doubt?

[Omni]

i dont think merits work with a sub job, only main job.

i dont know if 5% haste and 3 jumps every 3 minutes seems good enough to trade double attack, berserk and warcry... hmmm it be interesting to see some parses if anyone is up for it. heresey is always hard to believe. ive heard many things over theyears from 'oh there was a parse somewhere on some forum about brd/mnk out damaging a war/smn ftw!!!'... you know?

dot from /drg might be good enough though to give it up..... though would you want to lose the better burst dmg on ws that /war might give you?

[Liquidedust]

Hmmm, but double attack does proc quite often. However, the hate reset would be VERY useful for mnk though. If you put merit into double attack, would /drg still be better than /war? Or does mnk/drg completley outdmg mnk/war without a doubt?

High Jump only sheds some hate, around 20-25% from what I have observed so far (Super Jump on the other hand sheds all hate but you cannot sub that so that is a moot point).

Double Attacks merits are job-specific and therefore only work when you're WAR main and never proc when WAR is set as a subjob.

DRG as a subjob compared to WAR for a MNK really is a toss-up, jumps are nice and and all for TP gain but so are Double Attack (0-15 extra TP every 1:30 and 3:00 for jumps or an approx 5% chance to Double Attack).

Then you have to take into consideration Berserk as well, which gives you 25% extra Attack for 60% of the time. And all Haste considered you wont actually benefit from Haste as much until you can stack it up above 10% (which usually wont happen until level 50 at the very earliest with Brown Belt and Wyvern earring).

And Double Attack as well as Berserk would also increase your weaponskill damage which increase your overall damage further and DRG cannot really help you out in that department.

I Would say /DRG is useful 60+ in some instances and at 70+/75 with a full Haste build. I am still not sure of either /DRG or /WAR is best for your overall damage, however personally I feel like /WAR would win overall.

[Bishop]

You may think 5% haste doesn't make too much of a difference. But when the haste spell only gives you 15% haste, 5% seems like quite a significant amount. Plus I think /drg also gives mnk acc bonus, allowing for more haste gear.

[Tirrock]

It's a toss-up, as far as I'm concerned. If a high level MNK (70+) wants to sub DRG, then that's fine with me, so long as they have it leveled. If a pre-50 MNK wants to sub DRG, that's fine with me too.

I don't think I'd care for MNK/DRG from 50 to 69 though...

DRG do get accuracy bonus, +10 accuracy, which does allow them to shove on even more haste gear. That's like a free optical hat. And there's really only one really good earring for MNK that isn't subjob dependant, brutal earring, so it's not like a MNK/DRG would be missing out on anything too major on the earring slot.

[Karinya]

I don't think double attack merits work when war is the subjob (unlike double attack gear).

I don't have any clear answer to the overall problem, though. Aside from certain level ranges where the matchup seems quite uneven (20-29, 50-59), it looks like both subs have some quite nice benefits.

I didn't know about the jump kicks, though. Neat. Do you get damage from both fists counted into the jump, too?

[TenchiHawkwing]

I don't think double attack merits work when war is the subjob (unlike double attack gear).

I don't have any clear answer to the overall problem, though. Aside from certain level ranges where the matchup seems quite uneven (20-29, 50-59), it looks like both subs have some quite nice benefits.

I didn't know about the jump kicks, though. Neat. Do you get damage from both fists counted into the jump, too?
Yes you most certainly do get both DMG from each hand in the jump, with Brutal Earring the Jumps could even Double Attack.

[Lmnop]

Armando posted on this once, maybe he'll bamf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamf) in here with the exact math on it or be kind enough to find the link since I'm lazy... but 70+, mnk/drg gains tp statistically faster than mnk/war. And according to some, will outparse it. I think that depends on set-up/merits (for instance, I think if you've fully merited kick attacks that /drg will put out more for you, while /war benefits more from fully merited counter and just baring the brunt x.x).

I think wyvern earring is nice, and wyvern mantle is icing on the cake, but I still think I prefer mnk/war even through 30-50. 5% haste means almost nothing to a 2hander job who likely won't even get an extra swing/fight from it, but monks swing quick enough that you'll prolly get results... probably. There's still that double-delay-double-swing thing just like dual wield. Accuracy Bonus really makes the deal seem appealing though.

But it's not Berserk or the extra STR that makes /war so wonderful... it's still provoke.

[Spinnthrift]

I don't believe there is ever a *right* or *wrong* time to say now's good to stop subbing Dragoon. I do believe it's a case of weighing up pro's and con's of gear and sub choices.

Now - firstly (and I do not mean to cause offense by this idea.. but I've been looking at some things of late... and come to some odd conclusions)...

Take Monk/Warrior... brilliant staple of damage dealing.... however... as your gear gets better and better, you come closer to a point where Berserk is actually more of a hindrance than a boon...

How so - I hear the collective brain pop?

Well - putting it simply, there are times, when using berserk won't really net you any great gains in damage, as you're already at the point where you're close to the ideal damage/attack ratio, and the gains become less noticable.

This is more prominent at 75, with awesome gear and full merits (when meriting), but is also noticable at lower levels when exp'ing on VT/Low IT mobs - and using great gear for the level range.

I notice this a great deal when I pull my Drg out of storage and don't notice much real difference in damage between when I have 240 attack and 297 attack at level 40 in capped areas like Riverne and Phominua. I do however notice the difference in 25% defense. When I inevitably pull hate, I feel the pinch much more when I'm 'zerked than when I'm not. At this point - Strength mods seem to play a much bigger part in how much damage I can potentially do over how much attack I have, and using Berserk actually makes me drain the healers MP more than I would do without it, as I take noticably more damage, with not a great deal more damage dealt.

In my opinion - it all comes down to hitting that sweet spot of attack/accuracy/haste over all. There are times when fighting - that your ideal sub will be Warrior, to push your attack beyond what you'd naturally have in gear with Berserk, but other times, when Berserk becomes superfluous to yours and your parties need. At this point it becomes a debate vs haste/accuracy vs double attack.

Now, if your /Drg helps you land a multihit WS more consistenly with decent numbers, over a 'zerked WS with less accuracy, and allows you to put in more Str gear, then clearly /Drg is the stronger choice - however, it won't always be the subjob of choice.

Likewise, when you're at a point where you're hitting multiple hit WS's consistently with /War, but are lacking the attack to put out consistent damage without Berserk, then War comes into it's own again, and is clearly a stronger choice than /Drg.

Sometimes, neither sub is optimum - and /Nin or /Whm is more optimum for your party's needs - it comes down to testing and understanding of what your mission in Monk is.

The role of /Drg is not set in one place, but is part of the Monk whole. There will be times when the hate shedding will be more valuable than Defender, and times when Defender is clearly a much better option. Same with Haste and Double Attack.

[Bishop]

Attack is a diminishing return. As your attack is above the enemies defense, it would begin to make less and less difference. Strength's power is linear, meaning it's a steady increase in dmg regardless of your attack and the enemies defense. This is why at low lvl, attack makes a much bigger difference than strength. Once you get into higher lvls where your attack is boosted so high from food, equip, merit, etc, str plays a much more important role in the dmg output. This is the same with defense and vit. Because your defense was much lower than the enemies attack, you took a lot more dmg when you had berserk on.

Regardless, I won't be surprised if I get less party invites if I subbed drg due to people scared of unorthrodoxed subs and general ph33r of drg as a whole.

[Tirrock]

There are some exp camps where it is more benefitial to have counterstance on all the time, so the DEF lost by berserk isn't an issue then. As far as it goes...I barely take more damage with berserk on than when I do without it. I get smacked for 180+ a hit on VTs without berserk or counterstance up. I put both up and it goes up to 220 and my DEF is a solid 34...

[Spinnthrift]

There are some exp camps where it is more benefitial to have counterstance on all the time, so the DEF lost by berserk isn't an issue then. As far as it goes...I barely take more damage with berserk on than when I do without it. I get smacked for 180+ a hit on VTs without berserk or counterstance up. I put both up and it goes up to 220 and my DEF is a solid 34...

Utterly, as there are also camps where /Nin is preferable, and probably a few where /Drg is.

Hence why I'm saying, and standing by the statement that:

"There isn't a specific time to stop subbing Dragoon, there is only ideal times to sub War, Nin, Drg, etc as the situation/gear/camp/party/anything merits."

I love the idea of a full Haste build Mnk/Drg, but I also appreciate when other subs are warranted - and mandatory. And props to 34 Def.. that rawks.

[Tirrock]

I can't really argue that too much. Only that I can't think of a situation where one jump would be better than double attack/berserk/provoke/defender. But assuming people weigh the pros and cons like you suggested, they'd likely come to that same conclusion.

I've heard from many people that haste gear caps at 25%, which is possible to hit as MNK without /DRG. 5% from turban, 12% from black belt, 5% from byakko shorts, 3% from fuma...

Not that many MNK would even hit that. (Fuma's aren't too hot compared to dune boots even. Not to mention the difficulty in getting black belt and byakko's pants.) I'm just tossing that out there.

[Spinnthrift]

As far as I can tell, it's nice early on if you have very snacky items - and nice later on, when you get the Acc Up bonus and High Jump for hate shedding.

I know for certain is has merit, certainly not in every situation... but more than just a casual dismissal though.

If I recall correctly, /Drg has slightly higher Vit and Mnd from my last stat calcuator checks, though I could be very much mistaken - perhaps worth using in a Chi Blast boost, kinda hybrid scenario...

To be honest - I think it's best used at that crossover where 10 acc makes or breaks consistency... but those moments are definately due to build/gear selection...

Either that, or in level capped spots like Phominua/Riverne, where you've got an O. Kote/Fuma/Brown Belt/Wyvern Mantle/Wyvern Earring setup and are trying to put out a lot of damage over a longer duration than Berserk offers, and with a higher degree of survivability, but don't want to sacrifice attack for Utsusemi, and can make use of the marginally faster TP gain at that level.

Imagine a slightly merited Monk in a 40 capped area, with the full /Drg enhancements.. would be fun at least.

[Lmnop]

Check out what Nny (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/warrior/56585-warrior.nutshell.html) says here about haste caps... you'll see a link to a blue gartr page with his testing. 70% delay cap from haste, figuring in all haste effects, stacking additively. Maybe I missed it, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a limit just from gear alone.

[Tirrock]

I was about to complain about not being able to open up BG forums...but it randomly let me through this time. I've got some reading to do, thanks for the indirect link.

[Bouncer]

See... problem is... you cant really say you own at a sub when your using Meat while everyone else is using sushi. Im prety sure that was the case when the KRT parser was taken. Was in a party with a Mnk/war and I came as War/Nin in Caedarva Mire. Mnk/war (mithra) ate Sushi and I (Hume) ate Sis Kebabi. We both had about same equips except mithra has Str bracelets and Rasetsu hakama (pants), and I had O. Kotes and Melee hose.

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/7189/foodkm4.gif

I dont think we got hasted either, cause the healer was burning MP from Flys spaming AoE. Now that was almost dead even in dmg, if it wasnt for the fact that I had to cast Shadows to protect myself, most likely would have out dmg'ed the mnk/war, the mithra was using berserk whenever possible also. Its easy to say with this info I could have owned with /drg sub as well.

Atk Vs Sushi is very noticable if you can hit about the same rate. Even with Brutal Earring and Haste earring, Having each Mnk equiped with the same equips, food and having the same skill, I could easily see /war owning /drg. I may not be that good at math but it just dosent seem right to me at lv 75.

[Menelaus]

Stop debating this, go grab your shehie and /nin it up. You and the war will be tanking, the ninja or paladin will be throwing in the provoke to get the mob off the puller or the mages. Sell your wyvern earing and forget the brutal earing or whatever else you think will /assist you with your /drg or /war sub jobs.
RDM --> haste
BRD --> March + ATTK or ACC
you wont miss the double attack and you will be glad you brought your shadows. And pray that the war is good enough to spike the damage so you can recast.

MNK75/NIN37 <---- you can have this.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Stop debating this, go grab your shehie and /nin it up. You and the war will be tanking, the ninja or paladin will be throwing in the provoke to get the mob off the puller or the mages. Sell your wyvern earing and forget the brutal earing or whatever else you think will /assist you with your /drg or /war sub jobs.
RDM --> haste
BRD --> March + ATTK or ACC
you wont miss the double attack and you will be glad you brought your shadows. And pray that the war is good enough to spike the damage so you can recast.

MNK75/NIN37 <---- you can have this.

(1) Holy Necroposts, Batman.
(2) They can keep debating all they want, but they stopped almost a year ago. Soo... yeah, world of good you just did here.
(3) lolMNK/NIN - you can keep it. Plently of real MNKs to choose from these days.

[IfritnoItazura]

Stop debating this

:rofl: You bumped a 10 month old thread to tell people to "stop debating"? lol.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

:rofl: You bumped a 10 month old thread to tell people to "stop debating"? lol.

Maybe if he gets to Dallas in time, he can stop J.R. from getting shot.

[Malacite]

Maybe if he gets to Dallas in time, he can stop J.R. from getting shot.

Oh snap!


While on the subject, the best parties I've been in had MNK/WAR's as opposed to /NINs. If you've got a truly stellar party you should be dropping mobs before they can cause any real damage :)

[KoukiRyu]

Yayyyy I'm so happy to see people supporting MNK/WAR over MNK/NIN...I really don't like it. And yea, as a MNK myself, going to MNKburns, we were all MNK/WAR and we had wai more fun, and got excellent exp like that, screw MNK/NIN!

Unless I really -have- to use /NIN. D:<

[InuTrunks]

Damn, why is this thread back... WHY....

[DrivenTooFar]

Damn, why is this thread back... WHY....

Sometimes it's hard to let things go.

[Bouncer]

This only caught my eye...

forget the brutal earing

With those words, whatever crediablity you had (which you seem to have VERY little-none after reading that...) went in the toilet...among other things.

Please stand by while we point and laugh at you.

Then were Chi blasting you out.

[Menelaus]

Ok first of all I am at work and board as hell. So I was surfing and found this and maybe like the one dude said the issue never ends. I hate /nin i am not promoting it at all. I just know more than half the time people ask you to sub nin and its anoying. Also I agree with the part about having a good party and being able to drop them befoe they do any damage. I am not an advocate of /nin by any means.

[IfritnoItazura]

I guess I'm rather ignorant in the ways of the Monks, but if you don't like Brutal Earring (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Brutal_Earring)'s 5% Double Attack, what exactly can do better in the ear slot? (I mean, 5% Double Attack is 5% more damage... What can beat that?)

[Menelaus]

........I was just making a point if your /nin then no sense in having it. BUT yes i love /war and brutal earing is a wonderfull peice.
or wait does it take effect even if you dont have war as a sub. not sure i dont own one.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

........I was just making a point if your /nin then no sense in having it. BUT yes i love /war and brutal earing is a wonderfull peice.
or wait does it take effect even if you dont have war as a sub. not sure i dont own one.
You don't need to be /WAR to get the Double Attack boost from Brutal Earring. See wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Brutal_Earring), and notice the bit about "grants double attack".

[Menelaus]

Thats pretty nice what would be the % compared to /war? I'm on a Gov. Cpu atm and cant access that sight i'll check it out when i get home.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

WAR's Double Attack job trait procs approximately 10% of the time.

[CS_911]

well i have been doing mnk/drg the entire time i have lvl mnk, im 53 right now and this sub isnt that bad. On the crabs i have been avg about 3 ws per crab, and doing 2 sc per crab, not only that but my chi blast + jump has made me into the mega biach of hate some times. There are times i make 200+ chi blast fallowed by a 100+ jump and then fallowed by a 3-400+ ws. Not bad numbers but those are numbers i put on crawlers, on the beetles i put up similar numbers and now on crabs i cant really make the math cause for some reason pt ldr forgets to get some job that has dispel so when im trying to do the combo the crab is casting its def+ spell, but there are times i steal hate from pld on crabs, once we get rdm or something with dispell ill check the numbers. But other than that not a bad sub, specially if you have the rite gear and if youre smart about it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

MNK.... /DRG?

Seriously?

One Accuracy Bonus Trait at 60.
No Jump til 20.
You don't get the High Jump til 70.

So for 30 levels of your career, you're banking on Jump and Wyvern Earring.

This is an awesome subjob... if you're too lazy to level the good subjobs. Its never "that bad" when you don't want to level anything else as a subjob

Please, please go level WAR at least. MNK's a pretty braindead job to start with, don't make it brainless.

EDIT: Also, for the love of God, why did you necro this?

[CS_911]

Necro? I dedcided to do my own research instead of readding peoples opinions on things. My conclution is simple, both jobs are just as good, it all comes down to gear set up and smart playing.
---A job is only as good as the player behind it.----

[IfritnoItazura]

Necro? I dedcided to do my own research instead of readding peoples opinions on things. My conclution is simple, both jobs are just as good, it all comes down to gear set up and smart playing.
---A job is only as good as the player behind it.----
Posting an opinion isn't really "research". ._.

* * *

In any case, /WAR and /DRG are not equal; each has its own merits, depending on the level and how the party fights. From what I can tell, /WAR is more versatile, while /DRG may more likely to result in better damage over time up to Lv.40 or so.

Lv.10-19:
/WAR: Provoke
/DRG: (nothing)
Winner: WAR. MNK is actually a usable tank in those levels, and an emergency Provoke is useful.

Lv.20-29:
/WAR: Defense Bonus
/DRG: Attack Bonus, Jump
Winner: /DRG. MNK's armor starts to fall behind when tank jobs get Iron Chainmail set, and never recover, so it's better to focus on DD, and /DRG is clearly better than /WAR for that here.

Lv.30-39:
/WAR: Berserk
/DRG: Wyvern Earring, Wyvern Mantle
Winner: Looks like a pretty even match up, though DRG may have slight edge in typical parties for those levels with their short chains, long rest time between to recover Jump timer, and no Skillchain so MNK/DRG can WS more. If party needs someone to set up SATA, then Provoke would win out, of course.

Lv.40-49:
/WAR: Defender
/DRG: (Nothing.)
Winner: Party depending, but /WAR likely has slight edge. Chain 5's are now more common, and Berserk wins out Jump on continuous fighting. Defender is somewhat helpful, too.

Lv.50-59:
/WAR: Double Attack
/DRG: (Nothing useful)
Winner: /WAR. Double Attack is better than Wyvern Earring, leaving Jump alone to hold out against Berserk, which it can't, especially in fast camps.

* * *

Of course, if your party doesn't have a strong tank and/or abundant curing power, then /WAR is a poor choice somewhere around late 40's or early 50's range. Or, when you can do enough damage without Berserk or Jump that monsters frequently want to hit you, /NIN is probably a better option than either /WAR or /DRG if the back line may have trouble keeping you alive and continue chain.

On paper at least, things balance out again between /WAR and /DRG around Lv.70, since /WAR only gets Warcry between 59 to 70, while /DRG gets Accuracy Bonus and High Jump. By then, though, just about every exp MNK use /NIN to avoid being an MP sponge.

All bow to the almighty exp chain~

[CS_911]

is like i said, writing things down doesnt mean anything, i did the research, as in i lvl mnk with both jobs, and like i said before, they are some what even match.
To me Defense bonus, dont need it, beserk, dont need it either, the attack that subbing drg gives me along with gear and food is good enought for me. Double attack sure, but with haste build is just as equivalent, not only that but it makes the time for jump to reset alil faster. I asked a /war monk last night, how many ws he can do, on the same mob, he said 3 and if he pushes it maybe 4, the ws dmg and the reg hit dmg was exactly almost like mine, giving the fact that hes an elvan so he did do a lil more dmg than my mythra, but not a big deal of a diff. Thats y i said, both jobs are even, just depends on the gear and on the player behind it, we have all been in those pt where we had a whm/blm or a pld/war, or a thf/nin that had all the traditional stuff, but they sucked cause they didnt know how to do the job right.
I do give you the lvl 60+ and lvl after 70, havent been that high yet so i wont comment on that, just commenting from 1 to lvl 53, wich is as high as i have gone so far, but doesnt high jump take off some of the hate?

[Lmnop]

Itazura, War doesn't get Defender 'til 25 -- same level as Double Attack. So your 40-49 era is slightly inaccurate.

/drg is a lot of work to keep equal. If you can't get a hold of a wyvern earring, it's not worth the hassle. And even then, you just gave up Provoke.

Was it worth it?

CS_911, first you say

well i have been doing mnk/drg the entire time i have lvl mnk

and then you say

i did the research, as in i lvl mnk with both jobs

Are you saying that you spend most of your time in dedicated exp parties as /drg but you have /war for when you're made to sub it for SATA or something?

[Ameroth]

Necro?

The last post before yours was almost 1 year ago.

Urban Dictionary: necro post (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=necro+post)

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Necro? I dedcided to do my own research instead of readding peoples opinions on things. My conclution is simple, both jobs are just as good, it all comes down to gear set up and smart playing.
How can you possibly come to that conclusion? You said yourself that you've spent your entire MNK career as /DRG. Which means you have no idea how /WAR performs in comparison to /DRG.

You say /DRG makes you a "mega biach on hate". How much of that is just from the fact that you're a MNK main? Would you still be one if you went /WAR? You don't know because A) you've never tried it, and B) you consider comparing job abilities and job traits granted by each subjob to be blindly following other peoples opinions.

---A job is only as good as the player behind it.----
No matter how "skilled" a player you are, you will still be limited by the strengths and weaknesses of the job/subjob combination you choose. You can't suit up as MNK/SMN, and rely on your innate gamer abilities to make it perform as well as /WAR or /DRG.

[CS_911]

i have used /war in 2-3 pts in the mid late 40's and used it for a couple min at 50. I said i used drg the entire time cause those 2-3 pts only lasted like 20 min. Gotta hate those short exp pt, specially when you lfp for hrs, but when i lfp i look as /drg and when i get invite i ask them if i can sub it.
I took on mnk/dgr as a study, most people lvl mnk/war and there for post mostly on that, i figure i make an experiment and be that one player who did about 98-99% of the mnk expirience as /drg, and post my results once i hit 75. I know some of you guys might hate me or bash me, but is fun experimenting, and brings in a diff view to things too.

also to Lyonheart, avesta is prob one of the best if not the best rdm around, his skill is freaking awsome, but not any rdm can do what he does, and thats why it makes him the best, so yes, skill behind the character makes a diff, i know mnk/smn wouldnt make the same amount of dmg as /war or /drg but a good player could make mnk/smn into something incredible, what would that be, lol i dont know but impretty sure some one some where has done it and came up with the dos and dont with that sub. lol, is all about fun.
______________________________
oh and i necro this cause i figure since i embarked on this experiment i post some of my findings if not personal opinions from what i have gone trough, just for them players who dont like going the traditional way and like to look for something diff.

[IfritnoItazura]

Itazura, War doesn't get Defender 'til 25 -- same level as Double Attack. So your 40-49 era is slightly inaccurate.

Oppsie. Thanks for catching that.

[Lmnop]

also to Lyonheart, avesta is prob one of the best if not the best rdm around, his skill is freaking awsome, but not any rdm can do what he does, and thats why it makes him the best, so yes, skill behind the character makes a diff, i know mnk/smn wouldnt make the same amount of dmg as /war or /drg but a good player could make mnk/smn into something incredible, what would that be, lol i dont know but impretty sure some one some where has done it and came up with the dos and dont with that sub. lol, is all about fun.

Err but you're a Monk. You punch stuff. At least in a pure DD role, skill won't be doing much for you. Admittedly, /drg is something that requires more attention from you than /war since you need to make sure you Jump every chance you get. But it's still rather simplistic. Oh, and a good /war player is always keeping an eye on resources, looking to see if there's a time where he should be provoking. You don't have that outlet for player skill to shine, so I guess the 2 subs come back to equality.

Anyway, Skill doesn't mean much in a party of 6 where the absolute bottom line is how much damage you dealt. I think that's what Lyonheart was getting at. In those regards, player skill really doesn't account for much (moreso for a Monk than any other melee job excepting maybe Warrior).