Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

[Stooky]

Well I have been levleing a bunch of classes and have been rather bored. War is still my favorite. So I leveled war to 37 with mnk as the sub job and now Im leveling Nin for a sub job. Will I be able to get away with just going war/nin and not touching theif or mnk again..? Do I want to Use a greataxe or just axes? I hear people say keep great axe leveled but for what? Weapon strikes? Well I hope I can get some help with this so I know what to do! =P

[ValisOfValefor]

Of course you can get away with war/nin. (Though i still suggest having all 3 subs for a warrior leveled)

Keep both G Axe, and Axe leveled, becuase both are wonderful weapons for a warrior.

The reasons to keep Great Axe leveled, is becuase it is the warrior's A+ weapon. Its weapons skills rock (weather it's the break skills, or strumwind, or any other move)

Pretty much all the Axe is good for is Pure damamge. The best Warriors will keep both leveled, for skillchains, and for support.

Just keep em both leveled, and be the best you can be as a Warrior

[Stooky]

Ok, yeah... im lazy and have had apain in the ass trying to find a class to level in the past two weeks so i may just go war/nin and eventually level thf and mnk. So as i level keep a great axe and my axes around for what ever purpose it is (skill chaining, ws, SATA (with theif), and a what not.) Well thank you, now I guess i have to carry three axes around. ;D

[ValisOfValefor]

Heheh, besides, its always good for having thf leveled for everyones Favorite (note that sarcasm) past time, FARMING!!!

(I hate farming for my IM set, and RK shield.)

SATA is A good reason for keeping thf leveld also. 60+ No thf, guess who can take over.

Monk, has lost its style over time, due to /nin being more efficient at tanking, and damage mitigation.

But its definatly nice If you get the chance to use it.

Boost is a good way of keeping hate. Focus is an Awesome 2 minute (five minute cooldown) accuracy up. Dodge is very helpful.

[Stooky]

Ok thanks, so it really actualy seems nin will be the one you use almost 90% of the time, then theif for sata and farming, and mnk for the occasional use. Well thats good, I can nin 37 next week and level war to 60 or so then level my other jobs ;D
Thanks,
Stooky

[Kenki]

I think you would be spending 50% of the time with /nin and about 50% of the time with /thf. This is because you use /thf exclusively for farming and to make decent money you will roughly spend the same amount of time you PT to farm >_<

[lionx]

Dont spend 90% of your time with /NIN please..../MNK for tanking, /NIN post 55 DD or dual tanking with pre Ni NINs...and /THF for DDing...orz...dont go WAR/NIN all the way....i am in a pt with a lvl 15WAR/NIN...its not funny....he tanks with berserk on and passed Dynamis Beaucidine too...and uses a Sword...

[Gwynn]

Dont spend 90% of your time with /NIN please..../MNK for tanking, /NIN post 55 DD or dual tanking with pre Ni NINs...and /THF for DDing...orz...dont go WAR/NIN all the way....i am in a pt with a lvl 15WAR/NIN...its not funny....he tanks with berserk on and passed Dynamis Beaucidine too...and uses a Sword...
; ; wow thats awful, I'm so sorry for you lionx!

[Murphie]

I'm about ready to take my WAR to 40 (likely as far as it's going to go, but you never know) and I have MNK THF and NIN ready to sub for it. I couldn't in good concience level WAR past 30 without all three available.

I plan to bring both axes and a GAXE depending on my needs at the time, and hopefully some parties will let me sub THF for SA+Sturmwind from time to time.

[Stooky]

Ok, I Just do not See many war/mnk an war/thf. Well thanks, now more subs 2 lvl. ps wrote on a psp!

[Armando]

Don't be fooled by that, you don't see a lot of THF/WARs either. /NIN is just the "safer" choice. It's hard to be caught in a party setup where /NIN isn't doing something beneficial; however, before you touch Viking Axes, it won't do as much damage as /THF, and you could make an argument that it won't solo tank as well as /MNK for hate reasons either (you WILL take hits as /NIN; if you want to get hate, you need to leave Berserk up; if you don't want to take big damage, you'd have to click Berserk off.)

Just remember one thing: As WAR/NIN, you have shadows. Unless your tank is a post-37 NIN, you better use them, wether you're tanking or not. Don't let your tank take unnecessary hits when a simple Provoke could spare him 3-6 shadows and maybe even a TP move. It's simply more efficient. You save HP, you save MP. 9 hits avoided every fight quickly adds up to a lot.

P.S. Don't forget that the Lv.15 Ninjutsu can be used to lower the mob's elemental resistance by 30 for about 15 seconds. It can come in handy if you have a nice Skillchain going and you don't want it to go resisted.

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

i lvled my war to 37 for sub using /mnk with GA, i put out noticable dmg and a few times stole hate from a good pld.

after 37 i would recommend /nin for DD rampage as /nin at lvl 55 is godly, the dmg is beautiful

later later on (post 65) /thf may shine for the DD factor, i hear of war/thf lvl 75's outdmging war/nin's or even drk/thf's which i was very shocked to hear. id have to see it though before i believe it

[Spinnthrift]

Sub jobs: What's truly needed?

Something which compliments the main job.

In the case of War, this extends to, but is not limited to:

/Mnk, /Nin, /Thf, /Drg, /Drk, /Whm, /Rng.

Each have purpose at various stages in the game. Your job is to best make use of them.

[Mog]

Sub jobs: What's truly needed?

Something which compliments the main job.

In the case of War, this extends to, but is not limited to:

/Mnk, /Nin, /Thf, /Drg, /Drk, /Whm, /Rng.

Each have purpose at various stages in the game. Your job is to best make use of them.

Drk = bad choice for a sub. It does almost nothing for the main job, so it's not really that "party-friendly", you might say.

[Spinnthrift]

I didn't state Exp Party Friendly Mog.

I stated the subs that have function and not limited to. And yes.. even /Drk has purpose, though I'm sure in your infinite wisdom you can disprove that...

#edit#

At what part of various stages of the game did you fail to comprehend? Do you see me stating exp-pt-onry here?

No.. hence why I listed /Whm since it's a favourite for CoP Wyrms.

And no, I don't recommend /Whm for EXP!

Oh, add another one there - /Blu as well.

[Mog]

I didn't state Exp Party Friendly Mog.

I stated the subs that have function and not limited to. And yes.. even /Drk has purpose, though I'm sure in your infinite wisdom you can disprove that...

#edit#

At what part of various stages of the game did you fail to comprehend? Do you see me stating exp-pt-onry here?

No.. hence why I listed /Whm since it's a favourite for CoP Wyrms.

And no, I don't recommend /Whm for EXP!

Oh, add another one there - /Blu as well.

What "stage" of the game do you consider /drk to be a viable subjob? Sure, it adds to WAR weaponskills. Big whoop. I can slap /blm onto war, call it situational, in order to further my skills with Staves.

You have to see past the obvious. Just because DRK/WAR is an excellant choice doesn't mean that it's going to be the same the other way around.


And no, I don't recommend /Whm for EXP!

/whm is a viable sub for a pre-20 warrior.

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

personally i wouldnt sub drk with anything except for rdm for chainspell and stun, but thats just me, i consider the main ones /mnk, /nin, and /thf. /whm is just ghetto pld.

but if your talking anytime subs and not just pt subs than i guess really any job could be a war sub ._.

but if i see a war/pup or anything running around on Phoenix i may be tempted to /slap you >.>;;

[Samuzuki]

The /drg items really kcik ass i would be tempted to go /drg and get them around 30-40 if i had to lvl anymore DD's up.

[Spinnthrift]

What "stage" of the game do you consider /drk to be a viable subjob? Sure, it adds to WAR weaponskills. Big whoop. I can slap /blm onto war, call it situational, in order to further my skills with Staves.

You have to see past the obvious. Just because DRK/WAR is an excellant choice doesn't mean that it's going to be the same the other way around.



/whm is a viable sub for a pre-20 warrior.

1: Post 60: When you have Soul Eater, and a War with enough Acc + Hp's to take advantage of it. How you make use of that is up to you.

2: /whm is not a viable sub for a pre 20 warrior. Pre 10, sure... when you need the 10 hp heals... post 10, /Mnk or /Rng is better. Rng for widescan and pulling and Mnk for Boost. /Whm comes into it's own again for CoP wyrms, but until you get into fairly specific roles, you're just advocating buttersheep. Next you'll say swords are the best weapons for War's?

#edit#

Oh, and ReaperX... if you want to come check out my gimpness on Phoenix, you're more than welcome to...

My level 40 Drg that I retired, is sitting at 297 attack in Phominua Aquaducts at the moment. Really gimpy.

I'm expressing the truth of viability for subs allround.. and War has a lot of potential depending on how you want to play it.

[Goldesper]

Next you'll say swords are the best weapons for War's?

Isn't a fully merrited sword war/nin dual weilding Ridill + Joyeuse the best combo for WAR or have I been heaing things wrong again?

[Mog]

Isn't a fully merrited sword war/nin dual weilding Ridill + Joyeuse the best combo for WAR or have I been heaing things wrong again?

You've been hearing wrong, obviously. :rolleyes:

[Spinnthrift]

Isn't a fully merrited sword war/nin dual weilding Ridill + Joyeuse the best combo for WAR or have I been hearing things wrong again?

And isn't a Drk using Ridill and Kraken and Souleater + Blood Weapon the most damaging thing on the planet too (and how many of those do you see every day)?

Most people don't have (nor ever will get) Joytoy's. Even less have Ridill's. For the true majority of this game - Axes/Great Axes are the Warrior's bread and butter. You have been *hearing* correctly - in exp, they are the best, but how many have you seen personally?

Sure - technically, you're right on a point, but until a Warrior gets access to both, they're not all that manly (swords).

So, until you get fully merited, and two of the most sought after high end weapons (why not demand they have K Osode, Unicorn Boots +1, blah blah blah...).

And on HNM's, no, a Sword War will still dink off them, while a G. Axe War/Thf won't. Mmmmkay? Thought so. ;)

Yes - in one small aspect (meripo's), a sword War *can* beat out an axe or great axe War. But to advocate the use of swords for the majority of the Warrior, because of one of the rarer weapons in the game is stupidity of the highest level.

As I said.. how many have you seen personally... how many rid/joy war's do you have in your LS - and how many lvl 75 Warriors are there? How many lvl 75 War's do you know who don't have one of those two, let alone both?

When you've got your Woody/Maneater/Juggernauts, your Byakko's Axe and your Martial Axe, etc... sure - you look at Rid/Joy... because most Warrior's won't be leeching a Ridill off a good HNMLS

[Goldesper]

Sure - technically, you're right on a point, but until a Warrior gets access to both, they're not all that manly (swords).

Awesome do I get a cookie:rolleyes:

[Spinnthrift]

I notice you didn't answer my other questions though... not that it's suprising.

Many Rid/Kraken Dark Knights too? Didn't think so either. Have your cookie - doesn't bother me.

[Goldesper]

I notice you didn't answer my other questions though... not that it's suprising.
Sorry, I didn't bother replying because I was wrong... (BRD By trade, I don't /check many people, I just know that I'm getting either good or bad exp/hr :thumbsup:)

I'll go eat my cookie now.

[Aeolus]

Joyuese arnt that hard are they? Every second person and their dogs got one these days.

[Spinnthrift]

From what I've seen - they're not that commonplace. Definately more people have a Joytoy than Ridill though, by a large amount. I think from what I've been told, two Ridill's drop a month on average, versus 2 Joytoy's a day? (which is clearly more) ^^.

A lot of my friends still need theirs.. and have levelled up multiple jobs to 70+ without being able to get them - so there definately is a margin of players without them.

[Aeolus]

Oh yea, I didnt mean Ridil xD That thing is very rare, on my server at least. Dont see many. All the people I kno tho who get 70 and want one have had it within 1-2weeks. Guess everyones got one know so its not ever that camped.

[Kirsteena]

Getting a Joyeuse isn't that difficult - its just a case of having patience to spend a long time in SSG if you don't have ToD. You can tell when the window is open, and there is always the chance of a Siren's Hair from a NM just outside to pass the time - hell we even managed to get one last time we camped Charby...

[Lilani]

Well I have been levleing a bunch of classes and have been rather bored. War is still my favorite. So I leveled war to 37 with mnk as the sub job and now Im leveling Nin for a sub job. Will I be able to get away with just going war/nin and not touching theif or mnk again..? Do I want to Use a greataxe or just axes? I hear people say keep great axe leveled but for what? Weapon strikes? Well I hope I can get some help with this so I know what to do! =P
NIN is actually the preffered sub for WAR from my experience, at least 20+. You should use axes when subbing NIN because at 37 you can dual weild them. And you need to have as much shihei on you as when you are NIN, because more than likely you'll need to either main tank or at the very least subtank. And have a boomerang on you for pulling, which is also something WAR/NINs are useful for.

If you have NIN available, then after WAR20 you will never have to touch THF or MNK as a subjob for it again. However, it is better to at least have them available just in case your party has a preference. But if you don't want to level them then that's ok too.

Oh, and I think they say keep GA leveled because you might want to use it someday in case you can still/want to sub MNK or THF. Other than that I don't really see a reason.

[lionx]

I honestly dont know if it is preffered for a reason or just "hot". While duel wielding Axes are cool at lvl 20 there are absolutely no real good Axes imo for the most part until Viking Axes, and even then its debatable vs Shield Break for the entire PT. Only time to sub NIN, is at lvl 24, and dual tanking with another WAR/NIN, or an actual NIN.

Subbing NIN at 20 is pretty retarded IMO, you lose Boost from a MNK sub to tank, and you dont even get the real main reason why people sub NIN pre-rampage...Utsusemi. Even so WARs at low levels tend to be tanks, and i wont invite a WAR/NIN even with Utsusemi to solo tank...they cant keep hate worth much of anything. To me, /THF rocks, you lose nothing like the other jobs who sub THF(Berserk and Double Attack) and you gain whatever they have when subbing THF. However i havent tried it personally although i have pted with WAR/THFs before and they were pretty good. I can only wonder about post 60 WAR/THFs...to me on paper its awesome because you get the Berserk and Dbl Attack, yet you can SATA a bunch of hate to the tank.

There are multiple reasons that i can think of to keep GAxe leveled. Shield Break(-40 Evasion if unresisted), Sturmwind(which outdamages every Axe weapon skill until Rampage i would assume), Armor Break(i THINK -25% DEF), and Raging Rush. Most Axe WSs are weak until Rampage and onward(and i think Mistrel is kinda weak too..or maybe its just the WARs i been pting with ), and dont offer too much to the party that Breaks do imo. Only reason to use Axe is for skillchains.

I am trying to level my Marksmanship for status bolts though, and i feel that is way superior to boomerangs in general. But really...under lvl 55 when they get Rampage...i always look at a WAR/NIN with some skeptism...you never know if they have any other subs availible or if they are any good..especially those who sub NIN in the dunes -_-; They dont help that..

[Celeal]

To OP, for exp. parties:

WAR/MNK is very good from lvl 10 - 30 for solo tanking. It is really tanking + DD all-in-one.

At lvl 42, 45, 47 I had solo tanking in Crawler's Nest for exp. parties as WAR/MNK (no PLD or NIN seeking when I was in those parties). The mobs were hitting hard, fast, and can double attack per round. I tried different gear and food mix match, the only way I manage to make WAR/MNK solo tank works at that lvl is gear like a PLD (def+/vit+ food, def+/vit+ gear), open battle with Shield Break (in order for me to hit the mob to keep hate, since most gear slot is using defensive gear), have a THF SATA on me to help hate. Without DD food and acc/atk gear, my damage output drops when solo tanking as WAR/MNK.

Although the exp. from those WAR/MNK-main-tanking parties are below average, I have learned a lot from it. However, I may try WAR/MNK solo tank again once my WAR has full AF XD.

As a DD for WAR/MNK, I tried once in lvl 51~52 exp. party (Helm Beetle camp at Crawler's Nest), using aggressor ~ focus cycle w/ attack+ food. Somehow I feel that Focus from WAR/MNK is a lot weaker than MNK/WAR's (my MNK is at lvl 54). WAR/NIN Viking Axe x2 beats WAR/MNK Viking Axe + foucs because of the DW II from /NIN. For Great Axe, WAR/MNK is better than WAR/NIN, but Boost + WS from WAR/MNK is alot weaker than WAR/THF Sneak Attack + WS.

WAR/NIN (after level 24) is very useful when the main tank in the party cannot hold hate well, or the THF is very slow on setting up SATA on tank, or there is no main tank in the party. NIN/WAR + WAR/NIN, WAR/NIN x2, or every melee /NIN burn parties is very good for WAR/NIN.

WAR/THF is very good after level level 30, for Great Axe. Sneak Attack can make a weak WS to do decent damage, a strong WS to even stronger. Sneak Attack + Break WS will make sure it lands on the mob.

Sneak Attack, when used seperately, can be used for TP gain too. TP sitting at 96% and your were whiff-ing the mob? Use Sneak Attack and blam, you are ready for Skillchain. You can also pre-load Sneak Attack when the puller is pulling: When the puller pulls the mob at a distance away from camp, activate sneak attack. Once the mob reach the camp, get behind the mob and use the sneak attack that was charged a moment ago. After 10 or 20 seconds later, your next Sneak Attack timer should be ready again...

I never tried WAR/SAM. Once my WAR reached level 60 I may try it.

I know WAR can benefit from many different subjob, weapons, etc. It is a lot of work, but it is worthed. If time and resource are the constrain, level NIN and THF to lvl 37 as the 1st priority. It is because most job can /NIN or /THF to gain benefit from it.

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

when did your DRG become a matter of discussion? O_o

i said war/whm is gimp or war/pup. I didnt even mention the job DRG o_O

...you ok man?

[Hearshot]

NIN and THF, thats it.

[Goldesper]

NIN and THF, thats it.

MNK at least until 40s can work very, very well at tanking.

[Hearshot]

MNK at least until 40s can work very, very well at tanking. But keep this in mind, Why would you level a sub you won't use after the 40s?

THF and NIN are very capable before (and superior after) the 40s.

For a war starting out, there is no problem going to 30war/thf or 30thf/war tounlock nin and continue war/thf or war/nin.

Starting war/mnk when you want to be an endgame war is pointless.

If you want to be endgame MNK, well thats a different story, this is a War thread so ya. lol

[lionx]

I would level MNK up to 37 if i was called to tank after 40 though. I dont know how many people still WAR tank(even though its viable), but i certainetly would like to have that option availible instead of sitting there saying i cant tank.

[Hearshot]

I would level MNK up to 37 if i was called to tank after 40 though. I dont know how many people still WAR tank(even though its viable), but i certainetly would like to have that option availible instead of sitting there saying i cant tank.

every once in a while you'll get that war tank request in early levels, but subbing nin is the way to go. especially if theres a second war/nin or DD nin in there to help.

If you are below 30 and don't have NIN yet, war/thf before 30 is just as capable as subbing anything else, those levels are such a push-over.

If you are war and want to lvl the fastest with the most necessary jobs, THF and NIN. Lvling MNK to sub to war in xp is like lvling whm to sub to mnk for xp. XP just doesn't need it.

[lionx]

Are you serious? WAR/THF before 30 is a waste, /MNK with boost can hold solid hate after the 2nd provoke if you are doing it right, WAR/THF has nothing before 30 thats of any real use.

WAR/NIN after NIN/WARs get Utsusemi Ni and dual tanking is uncommon. Therefore to tank as a WAR/NIN you are going to need a BRD with Carnage Elegy. Otherwise you will not have the hate holding tools needed. Boost gives off a much needed mni-provoke that you otherwise wouldnt have.

To me, MNK sub is like SMN sub for WHM. You can sub BLM, BRD, or SMN to WHM and be fine and do well in different situations in exp. Not as optional as MNK/WHM which are not applicable in exp at all.

[Hearshot]

Are you serious? WAR/THF before 30 is a waste, /MNK with boost can hold solid hate after the 2nd provoke if you are doing it right, WAR/THF has nothing before 30 thats of any real use.

You could sub whm and be just as an effective war before 30, i agree. this is true for almost any job before 30. My point in this, was that on the road for a beginner going on to be a 37+ warrior to endgame, you want to lvl jobs you will actually use. You will not use mnk the majority of the time, especially endgame. I said war/thf because beyond 30, it is a great DD, and these 2 jobs you started off with, are the exact jobs you are going to use as a Main Job Warrior. Quite Convenient, i'd say.
Great Axe is best used by /thf. Tell a beginner to lvl mnk for no reason at all for the future? they're going to regret it when they are 75. Overall point, /mnk is a waste of time because you will not need it anywhere near the second halfway through all your experience points to lvl 75 ( lvl 65 is the halfway point in xp )

WAR/NIN after NIN/WARs get Utsusemi Ni and dual tanking is uncommon. Therefore to tank as a WAR/NIN you are going to need a BRD with Carnage Elegy. Otherwise you will not have the hate holding tools needed. Boost gives off a much needed mni-provoke that you otherwise wouldnt have.
Actually you will still take less damage than a war/mnk, thats the point of tanking. Acc beats boost for hate control. Paladins and Ninjas should be tanking anyway, its why those jobs were made. Warrior doesn't compete.

To me, MNK sub is like SMN sub for WHM. You can sub BLM, BRD, or SMN to WHM and be fine and do well in different situations in exp. Not as optional as MNK/WHM which are not applicable in exp at all.
Actually that comparison doesn't work, because every whm subs smn at 75 for xp and other stuff.
I said mnk/whm because a mnk subs whm for soloing and if they ever want a big Chi Blast for some fun reason.








war/thf tanks just as good before 30... war/thf does plenty of dmg after 30, screw a warrior tank when he can be your DD

... you're going to need /nin forever and ever.... you use /mnk a tenth of the time in your early levels, yet not one person will ask you to sub it for some reason.... i felt like making it simple rule for new warriors lol.

[lionx]

o_O...

If you are below 30 and don't have NIN yet, war/thf before 30 is just as capable as subbing anything else, those levels are such a push-over.

^ I meant this, subbing MNK gives you better HP and Boost to hold hate. I never invite a WAR/THF to tank infact i would question them if thats what they wanted to do...they cannot hold hate at all. I held hate pretty solid, and i would even argue that its better than PLD at the lower levels as WAR/MNK than a WAR/THF. Seriously what do you get pre 30? Steal. You obviously havent tanked as WAR/MNK...at least thats what it seems. It is more better than what people think.

Actually that comparison doesn't work, because every whm subs smn at 75 for xp and other stuff.
I said mnk/whm because a mnk subs whm this for xp and if they ever want a big Chi Blast for some fun reason.

I actually dont sub SMN, its only lvl 28 to begin with but i wouldnt sub SMN at all unless its carby pull or if Aerial Armor is just that good. I dont find Auto-Refresh to be worth it, and i prefer Conserve MP. Not every WHM subs SMN. I sub BRD if theres no BRD, otherwise BLM unless you have a REAL good reason for me subbing SMN, i wouldnt do it. But does it mean that you arent making yourself more versitile by having more subs to help you?

I personally have never seen a MNK/WHM actually exp, as in actual 6 man exp pts ever. I dont see the point. This really makes me raise an eyebrow.


On that note, WAR/MNK also has Counter, and who says Great Axe isnt better with that? I personally preffered WAR/MNK over /NIN, and only used /NIN when another WAR/NIN was there or NIN/WAR with no Utsusemi Ni. Otherwise if i am tanking, i would sub MNK, and if DD, prefer /THF(at least with GAxe, with Axe and Rampage i would sub NIN).

I dont get the notion of /MNK never getting used. Just because a bunch of people think /NIN is the only way to go doesnt mean that /MNK is useless for other situations as well. That being said /MNK might not be as useful at lvl 74, but that doesnt mean you wont use it before that.




Actually you will still take less damage than a war/mnk, thats the point of tanking. Acc beats boost for hate control. Paladins and Ninjas should be tanking anyway, its why those jobs were made. Warrior doesn't compete.

Damage mitigation and holding hate are different things(WAR do have Defender anyway if you want damage mitigation). If you mean that taking less damage is the entire point of tanking, then PLD is obsolete..in which they are not.

And while i agree PLD is made to tank, NIN definetly was not intended to and was not made for that purpose. WAR imo does compete, and what did everyone do before NIN was widely used for tanking? Wait around because PLD monopolized tanking? WAR of course was up there, it just isnt as popular these days. Why else is Defender on WAR? For fun?

And how does WAR/NIN get more Accuracy than /MNK somehow? Outside of dual viking axes, theres also shield break with gaxe.

... you're going to need /nin forever and ever.... you use /mnk a tenth of the time in your early levels, yet not one person will ask you to sub it for some reason.... i felt like making it simple rule for new warriors lol.

Pre 20, if you sub NIN i am NOT going to invite you..in fact i will totally reject you and wonder your skill...theres nothing /NIN even gives you at that time, and i only really like it post 24 with you get Utsusemi to dual tank.


Anyway...if you dont want to level MNK thats fine with me, but i prefer if someone wants to have more options availible to level it up too. I hate to wait for a PLD or NIN to show up when theres none when theres a WAR perfectly able to tank...yet either not want to tank because they "cant" or they do a shoddy job of it(at least pre 74...without Ni or a BRD). However its your choice for what subs you want to level.

[Hearshot]

aside from a few typos, (i mean monk subs whm to solo not xp)

Having played this game for 3 years or so, i've figured out what the most efficient way to lvl is. Not that it takes that long though.

Question: what jobs should i level?
My opinion: Only level the jobs you will be using later in the game. A nice rule i'd go by is this......

What will i need to sub at 60? war/mnk doesn't exist.

Lionx: you are right about pre-20 nins, and pre-30 wars and such, but realistically, these level ranges play a VERY small amount of time in your career as a warrior. In the end, you will be glad you have the required jobs leveled, but you may also be content with JUST leveling those "Required" jobs, and skipping the grey area of being a dedicated warrior tank.


**edit**
To get back to the OP.

Majority of the time to 75, you will be asked to sub NIN and use Axe WS. Using Great Axe brings some nice Skillchains especially at 60 (Raging Rush) Great Axe is most useful using /thf, so you are transferring hate and adding damage with SATA.

You can get away with never touching thf and great axe, some people won't like you when you turn down their Gaxe requests though. Also, if you plan on passing lvl70 Limit Break as a warrior, you must have great axe, as axe will not deal enough damage in this fight.

I know 60, 70, and 75 are far away, but if you think about your choices now, you don't have to deal with it later when its harder.

[Goldesper]

Actually you will still take less damage than a war/mnk, thats the point of tanking. Acc beats boost for hate control. Paladins and Ninjas should be tanking anyway, its why those jobs were made. Warrior doesn't compete.

Actually I believe NIN was meant to be a DD but thats aside the point.

From level 20-mid 30s WAR is hands down 100% the most undisputed best tank.

You have EVERYTHING going for you, massive damage through GAX and WSs, Provoke, Double Attack, and Berserk/Defender. Your also versatile in your subjob chioce, PLD and NIN are limited to /WAR.

From 20-29, if you are tanking /MNK is, in my estimation, the best tank. You are, for the most part, fighting mobs that hit light and fast, which gives Counterattack "more" of a chance to proc, which = hate.

If your DDing 20-29, you can sub RNG for the Accuracy bonus, or DRG for the Attack bonus and jump.

From 30-37, again MNK for solid tanking, if your not over hunting (fighting mandragora's until 33 ftw.) You can sub THF for super DD. You can even sub NIN for dual tanking when you are over hunting.

Having played this game for 3 years or so, i've figured out what the most efficient way to lvl is. Not that it takes that long though.

Question: what jobs should i level?
My opinion: Only level the jobs you will be using later in the game. A nice rule i'd go by is this......

What will i need to sub at 60? war/mnk doesn't exist.

Lionx: you are right about pre-20 nins, and pre-30 wars and such, but realistically, these level ranges play a VERY small amount of time in your career as a warrior. In the end, you will be glad you have the required jobs leveled, but you may also be content with JUST leveling those "Required" jobs, and skipping the grey area of being a dedicated warrior tank.

I suppose I am an overachiever, but I figure you might as well get:
RNG -> 15 (Not an option if you are first time character)
MNK-> 20
DRG->15 (Same as RNG)
THF->37
NIN->37

That way you'll be covered pratcially all the way to 75, since /MNK makes such a huge difference in those levels.

Just my 2g. And I probably had some inconsistency, being that I've been awake for like 32 hours now :wasted:

[Celeal]

...
Starting war/mnk when you want to be an endgame war is pointless.
...


/mnk is a stepping stone, an option for starting player from:

1) lvl 1 ~ 18 MNK -> unlock subjob
2) lvl 1 ~ 30 WAR/MNK -> unlock NIN
3) lvl 1 ~ 37 THF/MNK or THF/WAR (lvl 24+ for THF/NIN)
4) use THF to raise Norg Fame
5) lvl 1 ~ 37 NIN/WAR
6) lvl 30 ~ endgame WAR/NIN, WAR/THF, skill up other weapons, level other jobs for fun, mission/quest, etc.

At endgame, the max. HP boost from monk is handly for Spirit Within. WAR/MNK with capped H2H is an option for end game KRT parties, or certain BCNM that fight against bones too.

[Jarre]

Are you serious? WAR/THF before 30 is a waste, /MNK with boost can hold solid hate after the 2nd provoke if you are doing it right, WAR/THF has nothing before 30 thats of any real use.

WAR/NIN after NIN/WARs get Utsusemi Ni and dual tanking is uncommon. Therefore to tank as a WAR/NIN you are going to need a BRD with Carnage Elegy. Otherwise you will not have the hate holding tools needed. Boost gives off a much needed mni-provoke that you otherwise wouldnt have.

To me, MNK sub is like SMN sub for WHM. You can sub BLM, BRD, or SMN to WHM and be fine and do well in different situations in exp. Not as optional as MNK/WHM which are not applicable in exp at all.

I have to agree, My WAR (32) MNK (28 (restricted to 15) keeps hate quite well when tanking in Altepa on beetles and dharmels, provoke, boost, focus, dodge etc. help keep me alive, mages relaxed and I do a good amount of damage with a centurians sword (i have had no complaints with using a sword and skillchains have been frequent and effective)

[ValisOfValefor]

Ok, here's why i think /mnk is very superior Hearshot.

At 45, you gain aggresor from the main class.
At 50, you gain focus, both used in conjunction can lead to a never ending of accuracy up. I fail to see where ninja beats this out.

(Standard reply).....but we gots shadows...... And duel axes.....

So before, (and really after 50) do you think your hitting much faster than a great axe, enough to really make a difference?

And so what you get rampage alittle bit sooner than ragin rush, but I could use axe and shield, and nearly do as much damage as you.

So.... I have Counter, Boost, Dodge, what do you have to help Ohhhh wait, /nin has no job abilities. Only spells in which you have to pay for, and that are gimped as a sub that are pretty well useless.

And besides, If you have a good tank you'll never need those shadows, and if you need them for pulling at those levels still...... well you might not wanna consider standing right next to the enemy when you pull, you know i thought it was a ranged attack.

But the facts have been so scewed, that It's hard to find a party as a War/mnk, or War/thf at 30, waiting 10 hours for a party just to be invited back to the jungle is not my idea of fun.

Yes, i'm a wee bit pissed at the fact, i have to go back and level ninja, just so I can level warrior 7 more levels. Just so I can get back to Paladin.

[eikichi]

How many of you actually have WAR post-50? Yeah, WAR is a good tank in dunes. But, for those in the jungles. PLD is a better tank than WAR hands down. If your PLD tank is losing hate constantly to a WAR, then something is obviously wrong. If you're intentionally trying to rip hate, you should PT with my monk sometime. I can guarantee you I can rip hate off the majority of tanks if I really wanted. As far as weapons, G.Axe and Axe only. Maybe swords on the off-chance you get a Joy-toy and/or Ridill.
Having a single WAR tank post-30 will slow down your PT, drastically. The mp consumed to cure the WAR, especially if you keep berserk up the whole time, is a strain.
Conclusion: WAR is not a good tank post-30. /nin or /thf only. If someone asked me to tank I would seriously question the PT setup. /mnk offers some damage, but big numbers come from /thf and /nin.

**Edit**
Do you guys just look at spike damage or DoT?
/thf = best spike dmg with G.Axe
/nin = best DoT/spike

[Hearshot]

How many of you actually have WAR post-50? Yeah, WAR is a good tank in dunes. But, for those in the jungles. PLD is a better tank than WAR hands down. If your PLD tank is losing hate constantly to a WAR, then something is obviously wrong. If you're intentionally trying to rip hate, you should PT with my monk sometime. I can guarantee you I can rip hate off the majority of tanks if I really wanted. As far as weapons, G.Axe and Axe only. Maybe swords on the off-chance you get a Joy-toy and/or Ridill.
Having a single WAR tank post-30 will slow down your PT, drastically. The mp consumed to cure the WAR, especially if you keep berserk up the whole time, is a strain.
Conclusion: WAR is not a good tank post-30. /nin or /thf only. If someone asked me to tank I would seriously question the PT setup. /mnk offers some damage, but big numbers come from /thf and /nin.

**Edit**
Do you guys just look at spike damage or DoT?
/thf = best spike dmg with G.Axe
/nin = best DoT/spike

Not to mention, Counter, as rare as it will kick in /mnk, will only work if you are tanking. A rare counter, and sub-par boost do not warrant mnk as a rival DD to /thf or /nin.

Lets sum up your career as a 30-75 War in successful well-rounded parties:

A. You will be SATA partner. There IS a dedicated tank in the party, there IS a 30+THF with SATA in the party. You may or may not be invloved in the SC, but that Mob needs to turn his back to the tank for the THF to land SATA. In these 2-3 seconds of your provoke, you are taking.... Shadow... Shadow... maybe one more shadow if the THF is slow, then bam its not on you anymore! No cures for you, continue the XP. As a /nin you are also able to Off-hand a nice Stat weapon, one that adds ACC or ATK or STR.

B. You are in a party where you can afford to dish out high DMG(war/thf30-59). You bring your great axe and Sneak Attack WS as you please. (war/thf60-75) You are, essentially, the "Thf" administering DMG+SATA hate control.

C. You get an invite to a party wanting you to tank. Many leaders make a big error in this choice, depending on the level of the party. Slow swinging mobs and a beefy party setup can make this work. Subbing Ninja brings the most benefits, reguardless of what jobs you have in the party.

D. You are 73WAR being asked to XP in KRT. You can... (1) bring your axes for all-mighty Rampage or start Light with Decimation... (2) bring Great axe for Raging Rush or End Darkness with Steel Cyclone (probably not a good idea in KRT).... or (3) Attempt to make use of that all mighty Monk sub and undercapped Hand to Hand to put on some sub-par damage.




Its quite obvious, 30+ the only things a warrior *needs* is Axe+NIN, GreatAxe+THF. If you are using Sword, when are you going to skill up your axe and great axe? And why take time out of lvling 1-30War by lvling 3 Sub Jobs instead of 2?

[Celeal]

...
At 45, you gain aggresor from the main class.
At 50, you gain focus, both used in conjunction can lead to a never ending of accuracy up. I fail to see where ninja beats this out.
...


I personally tried lvl 50 ~ 52 WAR/MNK DD aggresor + focus cycle in one XP party. The hit rate for WAR/MNK shield + Viking Axe with Focus alone is about the same with WAR/NIN dual Viking Axes. But in that party I dies couples of time when I pulled hate from link to save the mages when sleep was resisted.

I may try WAR/MNK again in the next party, if the party does not mind me to sub mnk.

[Hearshot]

focus can be offset by equipment and food. A hate-stealing /nin is far more useful to the party than a hate-stealing /mnk. Shadows shed hate. If you aren't provoking, the tank should be able to get it back off of you in time.

And doesn't the fact that you died because you took hate as a war/mnk warrant enough proof to why war/mnk is a bad tank? lol

[ValisOfValefor]

Wow, by that train of thought Hearshot, when a blm takes hate after a mb, they must be the worst mage ever if they die.

(and i mean this in the sense that they where DD not tanking)

And besides, with the focus/agressor cycle you can eat meat, to push your damage even further. I still fail to see how ninja is superior.

And besides, when you take hate you use defender, you know cause thats what its there for

(And besides, war/mnk was tanking everything along time before /nin was around, and even then people didn't even use nin untill they realized the brokeness of utsusemi)

[Hearshot]

Wow, by that train of thought Hearshot, when a blm takes hate after a mb, they must be the worst mage ever if they die. You can blame the party for that one, MBs should take off the tail of a mob, in a party with a weak tank. I make the assumption you are in a party with people who know what they're doing. My point in that, is that if Monk is such a noteable tank SJ after 30, why can't a 50 or so War manage, much less survive taking hate if this job combo comes with such natural ability?

And besides, with the focus/agressor cycle you can eat meat, to push your damage even further. I still fail to see how ninja is superior.

And besides, when you take hate you use defender, you know cause thats what its there for

(And besides, war/mnk was tanking everything along time before /nin was around, and even then people didn't even use nin untill they realized the brokeness of utsusemi)
Before nin and pld were around, you were expected to wear AF and lvl cap was 60. Defender was more useful then.

How many pieces of AF are remotely useful for a warrior today? Hands have STR *BUT* Enmity, boo to that. Feet are debateable in having noticeable doubleattack enhancement. STR endgame is better. Legs can be offset by food/better gear.

9/10 doctors agree.... war/nin is less of a hassle to cure in a party where he is not tanking (which should be every party in 2006, post 30)

We're not in 2002.

[eikichi]

Not to mention, Aggressor -drops- your evasion. And if you have /mnk and are ripping hate like you say, you'll be getting hit. ALOT. Stack that on top of berserk which would most likely be up, you'll be in red in no time. You say, "that's what Defender is for". You'd still be getting hit harder than your tank would. /nin gives you the ability to keep aggressor + berserk up w/o the worry of getting into the red as fast /mnk.
You are looking at the /ja's on paper w/o actually getting war past Yhoator. Sure, it -may- look good to you on paper. But the fact is that it's not a very bright idea.
And like Hearshot says, gear will compensate for w/e you're lacking in. Missing too much? Get some sole sushi and some +acc gear. If you're wanting to be the best at whatever job you're playing, I'm thinking you would take the necessary steps to make it better than that other WAR seeking.

[ValisOfValefor]

Yeah, we're not in 2002

were in 2006 where everone duel wields, hides behind shadows for safety, and thinks that /nin is the ultimate subjob.

Blm: they do it, cause they don't like taking damage.
Blu: Most of them do it for spell spamming good times, with 2 weapons (a good 60% of blus on my server are /nin)
Brds: can duo tank an HNM going /nin
Bsts: do it for less down time
Cor: Ive seen alot of people /nin (nearly 40% the other is /rng and /whm)
Drg: (well to tell you the truth I've never heard this one, but still with how it is today I wouldn't doubt it)
Drk: do i need to say any more, Jugernaut+Ridill ftw, or Ridill+Kraken
Mnk: not taking any damage, while doing awesome damage
Pld: Ohhh boy everyone wants enrage so we can sub /nin the entire game
Pup: Never heard or seen this one, but wouldn't doubt it...
Rng: Glass cannons of FFXI, but not with /nin (and thats why they got nerfed)
Rdm: when i see a rdm/nin in my party in the crawlers nest >< yea.....
Sam: Heard about this one
Smn: Once again, wouldnt doubt it ><
Thf: /nin 24+ for pulling from 3 feet away
War: Nearly everone 30+ till the 60s, then you can sub thf occasionaly (and heck evertime a war/nin passes through the dunes, Promathia cries)
Whm: 2 darksteel mauls ftw

(note the sarcasm)

But still, i mean /nin may work great endgame, but that doesnt mean i have to suffer through the dunes, with /nin warriors thinking they're the best thing since sliced bread

And for the person who posted after, i know what the job abilities do, my monk is 40, unfortunatly going /mnk is looked down upon becuase it doesn't have utsusemi and 2 weapons, and doesnt cost 50k to maintain every party.

Agressor is a 25 accuracy boost
Focus is a 20 accuracy boost
Dodge is a 20 evasion boost

And besides, the -eva can be countered by Dodge for 2 out of the 3 minutes

You know I see all these people spouting off how great /nin is, but its taken the challenge out of the game, its rips the enjoyment out of it. Cause you know the only reason nin is so popular is becuase of the shadows, its the most selfish subjob in the game.

Cause back in 2002 and on, this game was about skill as a job, now it's about how much money you can throw at a job

And as for duel wield, everone says it looks cool, but it doens't really do much till 50, even then...

Other subjobs offer actual abilities, what does /nin give a person?

And a funny example of /nin superiorness, in quicksand caves, he did rampage when he had one shadow left, the spider hit one of his shadows and did sickle slash, and one shotted him.

(Well the point of this thread was to help the OP, the OP has not been back to this thread for quite some time now, because he is looking into other jobs. I suggest we let it go, or make a new thread)

[Hearshot]

First of all Aggressor is not 25 Accuracy Bonus, its more like 10ACC. This shows your lack of knowledge about the job. Don't spread rumors.

You appear to be a bitter paladin refuting the mass-use of nin and /nin by everyone and their mother in this game.

Lets look at FACTS instead of fiction, about Ninja the Sub Job.

Dual Wield Trait 1: lvl 10NIN, lvl 20JOB/NIN. Allows dual wield, both weapons are added together for full weapon delay. This first trait is useful all the way to endgame for the SOLE purpose of being able to off-hand a statistically beneficial weapon. Rangers offhand RACC, Thieves can offhand DEX,STR,AGI,etc,etc, Warriors offhand ACC,STR,Multihit Weapons, etc. This is the use of Dual Wield1.

Utsusemi: Ichi lvl 12NIN, lvl 24JOB/NIN: Each shadow, subbed, is absorbed by the same things a Main'd Ninja's Shadows are. Recasts are the same as well. The only difference is Ninja Utsu: Ni is 4 shadows, while a 74JOB/nin is 3 shadows. The main feature is the ability to absorb attacks with shadows, pretty straight forward.

Dual Wield Trait 2: lvl25NIN, lvl 50JOB/NIN. Enhances Dual Wield Effect. "Melee Haste" per weapon 7.5%. Sure this doesn't seem like a lot, but people pay millions for haste gear. DoubleAttack and Dual Wield 2 shine together. (NIN Dual Wield4 is 25%)


This argument isn't whether /nin is better than subbing something else, i think this speaks for itself. The original issue is what is most beneficial to sub to Warrior? What jobs/weapons can you skip entirely? But while we're on the subject of other SJ's usefulness:
Counter is only useful when you are getting hit. You won't be getting a whole lot, much less enough to get counter to kick in. HP boost is not enough to be offset by a single IT mob swipe to the face. Focus sounds nice, but i balance maintaining a safer party against it. Add up what you lose against what you gain. Without /nin, you lose a substantial defense as a warrior. /drk? lets not go there. /SAM? Gain a small amount of TP just so you can waste it on an SC thats already going to happen?

If you are so bewildered by the use of /nin in this game, go lvl it yourself and come back. Not to mention, get Warrior past 30 then raise a legitimate argument in a Warrior Forum.

And Cor, Blu, and Pup are still in early stages. They didn't go through YEARS of speculation like warrior, thief, and other jobs.

[eikichi]

Blm: they do it, cause they don't like taking damage.
Blu: Most of them do it for spell spamming good times, with 2 weapons (a good 60% of blus on my server are /nin)
Brds: can duo tank an HNM going /nin
Bsts: do it for less down time
Cor: Ive seen alot of people /nin (nearly 40% the other is /rng and /whm)
Drg: (well to tell you the truth I've never heard this one, but still with how it is today I wouldn't doubt it)
Drk: do i need to say any more, Jugernaut+Ridill ftw, or Ridill+Kraken
Mnk: not taking any damage, while doing awesome damage
Pld: Ohhh boy everyone wants enrage so we can sub /nin the entire game
Pup: Never heard or seen this one, but wouldn't doubt it...
Rng: Glass cannons of FFXI, but not with /nin (and thats why they got nerfed)
Rdm: when i see a rdm/nin in my party in the crawlers nest >< yea.....
Sam: Heard about this one
Smn: Once again, wouldnt doubt it ><
Thf: /nin 24+ for pulling from 3 feet away
War: Nearly everone 30+ till the 60s, then you can sub thf occasionaly (and heck evertime a war/nin passes through the dunes, Promathia cries)
Whm: 2 darksteel mauls ftw
(note the sarcasm)


Ok, I note your sarcasm. Now let me try to make it seem more -realistic- to you.

BLM: would get kicked out of PTs for going /nin. It gives them no benefit in what other subs can give them(/whm or /rdm).

BLU: too most, this is also considered a DD. /nin or /thf would give them more potential for dmg.

BRD: only time i've seen /nin is when they solo. And that there is a totally different topic.
BST: also another DD class. Personally, I /whm for the -na's and erase. Considered a solo job, so w/e makes the user happy.

COR: /nin post-28 does help alot. Dual-wield Archer's Knife for that extra r.acc and agi. /rng adds accuracy as a job trait. and /whm for backup curing.

DRG: i dunno about anyone else, but if i saw a drg /nin i would definitley find out why he was /nin. I see no benefits from /nin for drg.

DRK: you're right, but how many drk's do you see with either of those weapon combinations? I've never come across a /nin in an xp, or any other situation.

MNK: /nin is good for tp burns to reduce downtime when you're trying to get the most xp/hr.

PLD: honestly, I don't know so I won't say anything about this. (That's right, if I don't know what I'm talking about I leave it as that)

PUP: majority of PUPs I've seen normally go /mnk or /thf

RNG: ok.. you shouldn't say things you have no experience with. I go /nin for the stats of my off-hand(Woodville main, franny off-hand) when I go xp. During gods/HNMs, some still go /nin, while others /war. Nothing worst than whiffing the whole time. Which all boils down to the added stat from the off-hand. I don't melee even though I /nin, but that extra r.acc and r.atk is ALOT better than subbing something else. Sure I won't be doing as much dmg as a /war, but I can keep up with them and sometimes others in the PT. And pre-nerf RNG still outdmg'd the majority of jobs, even WITH /nin. Why? because I've been playing RNG pre- and post- nerf. So don't tell me otherwise unless you have done both.

RDM: /nin makes jesus cry in PTs... Good for solo, but nothnx to PT

SAM: read "MNK"

SMN: lie

THF: /nin is beneficial because of shadows and the dual-wield effect. maybe /war depending on situations. Would a thf pull raptors /war? Hell no, unless he's crazy and want's to raise evasion and die. /nin or /war plz. situational only.

WAR: dual-wield with /nin. SATA with /thf post-60. I still fail to see how /mnk offers more than what the other two subs bring. (BTW, dodge will not raise your evasion noticably higher than w/o out.)

WHM: solo. and I've seen them dual-wielding DS Mauls. Hexastrike is godly for them.

[piroko]

Personally, a great axe would be more benificial until 48 (viking axe) or 50 (DW2). A great axe's delay is around high 400s to low 500s where as a single axe is 260+ to low 300s. Until level 50, you'll be slower than a great axe. That's one pro.

SA Strumwind is killer. That's my second.

But it's all the setup and what people are looking for. If you're the 2nd voker for a party then /NIN would be safer but otherwise, I would sub THF past 30.

/MNK is an amazing tank from 1-30. I used a Neckchopper and tanked everything up to 30 when I started taking too much damage from goblins. Provoking and boosting at every opptournity gives you -a lot- of hate. No one could rip hate from me... which wasn't great when I was dying, but I guess I did a good job. Oh, you can Boost > WS for more hate as well.

[Hearshot]

Personally, a great axe would be more benificial until 48 (viking axe) or 50 (DW2). A great axe's delay is around high 400s to low 500s where as a single axe is 260+ to low 300s. Until level 50, you'll be slower than a great axe. That's one pro.


Well in most cases, Longer delay equates to a higher DMG rating on the weapon. Keep in mind, 260x2 (dualwield1 before 50) is 520 Delay. After 50, 260x2 comes out as around 440.

But TP return is completely different, TP is based on post-dual wield calculation, so while you are swinging faster than you were at 49 with the same axes, you may get LESS tp per hit than you were before. BUT swinging faster at 50 with dualwield2 does bring on more Double Attack opportunities, there is a TP gain right there. (and a difference of maybe 1tp from the TP-Floor penalty)

[Armando]

And doesn't the fact that you died because you took hate as a war/mnk warrant enough proof to why war/mnk is a bad tank? lolThere wasn't enough info in that anecdote to jump to that conclusion. Anyone can die in a situation where the party is actually fighting two IT mobs at a time. Also note that Celeal was DD'ing, not tanking.First of all Aggressor is not 25 Accuracy Bonus, its more like 10ACC.I'll take the tests that showed it to be 25 Acc over a claim with no foundation such as "it's more like 10 Acc." Especially when noone will probably bother to confirm it either way.Lets look at FACTS instead of fiction, about Ninja the Sub Job.This shows your lack of knowledge about the job. Don't spread rumors.The facts you posted are wrong. That aside, I feel that personal attack was unnecessary, especially when you yourself don't know your facts. On top of that, it's a moot point. I know more facts about this game than most people, yet in the time I've been playing there have been many people that have taken multiple jobs to 75 and cleared RoZ and CoP completely, and have far more game experience than I can hope to get.
Well in most cases, Longer delay equates to a higher DMG rating on the weapon. Keep in mind, 260x2 (dualwield1 before 50) is 520 Delay. After 50, 260x2 comes out as around 440.Dual Weild I is a 10% Delay reduction and DWII is 15%; a pair of typical axes (276 Delay) comes out at 496 Delay at DWI and 469 at DWII.
But TP return is completely different, TP is based on post-dual wield calculation, so while you are swinging faster than you were at 49 with the same axes, you may get LESS tp per hit than you were before. BUT swinging faster at 50 with dualwield2 does bring on more Double Attack opportunities, there is a TP gain right there. (and a difference of maybe 1tp from the TP-Floor penalty)Each Double Attack you do while Dual Weilding will also give less TP per hit, so while you do more Double Attacks, they're for less TP. The ONLY innate increase in TP gain you get from Dual Weilding comes from the extra delay-free hit you get when you first engage a mob, but that's often cancelled out by the fact that if you whiff the last hit needed to go over 100 TP, then you'll have to wait twice as long. Dual Weild will only truly give you a TP advantage if your off-hand weapon has Accuracy, Haste, or multi-hits, or if your average post-DW Delay is significantly under 180.

I have to concur with Piroko, while Utsusemi is very handy, I'd pick Great Axe over axes pre-48 any day, even as /NIN. Maybe I'd pick dual axes if I were to use a pair of C.C. Axes +2, but meh, -40 Evasion for the mob or -25% Defense is just so much more useful. It takes a lot of raw damage to compensate for the awesome power of breaks, and quite frankly, dual axes won't perform significantly better than great axe before the 48+ levels (if at all.)

[eikichi]

I'll take the tests that showed it to be 25 Acc over a claim with no foundation such as "it's more like 10 Acc." Especially when noone will probably bother to confirm it either way.The facts you posted are wrong.

If what you say right, then both assumptions are incorrect and should be voided from the conversation.

I have to concur with Piroko, while Utsusemi is very handy, I'd pick Great Axe over axes pre-48 any day, even as /NIN. Maybe I'd pick dual axes if I were to use a pair of C.C. Axes +2, but meh, -40 Evasion for the mob or -25% Defense is just so much more useful. It takes a lot of raw damage to compensate for the awesome power of breaks, and quite frankly, dual axes won't perform significantly better than great axe before the 48+ levels (if at all.)

If you agree do this, why not /thf? SA+WS is alot more devasting than Boost+WS. And like I said, if you're at that point where the only way you can land a hit is with Aggressor up. Upgrade your gear! There is no reason why you should be missing 85% of the time, unless you're overhunting.



Anyways, all of this was a /derail from what the OP originally wanted to know. If he can just stick with /nin instead of re-lvling mnk and thf. The answer is YES

[Armando]

If what you say right, then both assumptions are incorrect and should be voided from the conversation.The thing is, the 25 Accuracy figure was taken from a thread in which a person (or people, can't remember how many were involved in the testing) fooled around with DEX/Acc gear until they found at what point the mob will go from checking High or Low Evasion to neutral, then they'd use various Accuracy buffs or Debuffs, and find how much Acc you needed to gain/lose to return to the original check message. Shield Break, Agressor, Gravity, Focus, and Souleater have all been tested using this same method. No screenshots were posted. However, I'm not going to go out and question every little experiment I see; it was a properly thought-out experiment, and I saw no reason to question it. My WAR is only 45, I don't own Sniper Rings yet, and I'm not high enough for a Life Belt or R.G. Collar, so I'm very limited...testing it would be a pain in the ass. Someone saying "it's more like 10 acc" implies that the person is going by what it feels like to him, which will vary widely from person to person.
If you agree do this, why not /thf? SA+WS is alot more devasting than Boost+WS. And like I said, if you're at that point where the only way you can land a hit is with Aggressor up. Upgrade your gear! There is no reason why you should be missing 85% of the time, unless you're overhunting.Simple. /NIN has shadows. There are many circumstances in which a WAR/NIN is incredibly beneficial to the party, regardless of his/her weapon choice, simply by Provoking and using those shadows periodically. Saving a PLD tank 6/9/12 hits per fight can work wonders for MP conservation. /NIN isn't always the best choice, but the fact that it can reduce damage taken so easily and cleanly makes it an asset to parties when people actually put their shadows to use. If our damage mitigation/MP regen rate is fine, or you simply need the extra offense, I love going /THF. SA Shield Break is just wonderful.