{Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

[Draco Dagon]

Sue me if you don't like the topic title, I don't know what I should name the topic. {/laugh}

As some can guess from my signature, Red Mage is my 2nd-highest leveled job. Soon, it'll become my highest leveled job too. Actually, it may as well become my main job by then as I'm taking RDM to 75, hopefully. (But that's not to say I'm giving up DRG, abandoning it even, I've worked for a long time to get my DRG to where it is. Rather, I know I will not be leveling DRG for entire months.)

This is my equipment on Red Mage currently that I'm using:

Solid Wand
Centurion's Sword
Baron's Chapeau (even with the +2 Emnity I don't get any hate often)
Holy Phial
Baron's Saio
Devotee's mitts
Energy Earring +1 (which I will sell it for another Black Earring once I sell my other Energy Earring +1)
Black Earring
Electrum Ring x2
Red Cape +1
(Edited: Now have a Reverend Sash.)
Custom Pants
Custom F Boots

As you may notice, I'm going for plenty of INT and MND (trying to get more INT+ equipment now, reasonably compared to MND) while going for as much MP as I can.

What advice have yall?

P.S. For those wondering, I will level BLM to 37 soon.

P.S.S. I'm going to start crafting in alchemy soon perhaps, any advice there? (My alchemy is lvl 5.)

[Raydeus]

First of all you gotta start using equip macros.

You'll need 3 sets of gear MND, INT and MP (and STR/acc if you are still meleeing), using equip macros as needed. This will boost your casting abilities by a lot.

INT and MND +3 rings, at lvl 48 a Promise badge, etc.

The beauty about equip macros is that you'll have a huge boost for each cast, at that lvl you can get INT or MND +20 or much more without buying expensive gear.

If you have troubles sticking debuffs you can macro a good wand with your casts and then switch back to sword or dagger. As RDM we don't get much TP anyway so losing TP with your casting macros isn't a big deal.

Edit> Also for INT based spells you might wanna take off Devotee's and use something like Eng. Gloves (easy quest but you need a gold orcmask and that's kinda a pain) as they give INT +1

If you want me to explain in a more detailed way about all this just let me know, I kinda don't want to make the post too big. ^^;

[Ellipses]

If you can afford them, there are the level 35 skill+ earrings (Enfeebling, Elemental, etc.). Personally, I love my Mycophile Cuffs for the Enmity-, but that's more for WHM and BLM. If you don't have them, a Pilgrim's Wand, Seer's Tunic, and Baron's Slops to go along with your Reverend Sash in a /heal macro (assuming you're ever /healing).

[Draco Dagon]

If you can afford them, there are the level 35 skill+ earrings (Enfeebling, Elemental, etc.). Personally, I love my Mycophile Cuffs for the Enmity-, but that's more for WHM and BLM. If you don't have them, a Pilgrim's Wand, Seer's Tunic, and Baron's Slops to go along with your Reverend Sash in a /heal macro (assuming you're ever /healing).

I'll definitely get the Pilgrim's wand. The Seer's tunic, isn't equippable by RDM. Custom pants seem to help me more than Baron's slops however. I will take a look at the level 35 earrings definitely.

[Ellipses]

Crap, forgot RDM can't wear Seer's. >< I use the Baron's Slops in my /heal macro only (at least, after Custom become available). Then swap my +HMP gear for the Custom Slacks and the rest of my "real" gear for the last few ticks of resting. Though the benefit of that 1 HMP for a post-Convert, post-Refresh RDM who's only six levels away from a Dark Staff is probably debatable. ;)

[Draco Dagon]

Crap, forgot RDM can't wear Seer's. >< I use the Baron's Slops in my /heal macro only (at least, after Custom become available). Then swap my +HMP gear for the Custom Slacks and the rest of my "real" gear for the last few ticks of resting. Though the benefit of that 1 HMP for a post-Convert, post-Refresh RDM who's only six levels away from a Dark Staff is probably debatable. ;)

I could see where the MP Healing +1 could be more useful than 32MP/MND+3 once I get into the higher levels. But, just for now I do think Custom pants are better.

[Raydeus]

I guess you don't like the idea of using equip macros. :worry:


I just wanna make another suggestion for lvl 48, Magic Cuisses, INT and MND +3.

[Aeni]

I guess you don't like the idea of using equip macros. :worry:

I agree with Raydeus. You really need to have equip macros in place. I don't like separate ones though. I integrate them into my individual spell macros. You only have so much keys per palette and you can easily make a costly mistake from having to flip through palettes like some players do (Like casting a spell on the wrong mob or casting the wrong spell on a mob)

[Draco Dagon]

I guess you don't like the idea of using equip macros. :worry:

Now where did I say that? ><

Actually, I don't even know how to make an equip macro either.

[Hamlet]

(Red Mage) No you can't have it (Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass)

Equip macros are easy once you know Mom!

For a spell say Paralyze

label it para
/equip main "Wind Staff"
/equip ring1 some mnd + ring
/euqip ring2 some mnd + ring
/equip some other mnd crap
/ma "Paralyze" <bt>

For a nuke, say fire

/equip main "Fire staff" or if you just use a wand all the time you don't need this
/equip ring1 int
/equip ring2 int
/equip more int crap
/ma "Fire II" <bt>

You'll find yourself flashing in and out of existance in no time.

[Icemage]

I'd say it's pretty much impossible to play RDM competently without equip macros once you pass level 51. You can slide through the first 50 levels without it, but once elemental staves appear, it's learn how to do it or learn just how badly your spells will get resisted. :P


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Micro equip macro guide (sort of ^^; ) :

First the equip slots.


main sub range ammo

head neck ear1 ear2

body hands ring1 ring2

back waist legs feet


To use an equip macro all you gotta do is type

/equip slot "name of the item"


To equip a promise badge you'd have to type something like this:

/equip neck "Promise Badge" <- (You can use auto translator to get the name of the item right, it's the same with spells and everything else.)

Note that if the item's name has more than one word you gotta use " " or the system wont recognize it.


Then you gotta use the limited space you have in each macro (6 lines) the best way possible.

Name
/equip main "Casting Wand"
/equip ring1 "MND ring"
/equip neck "MND badge"
/equip ring2 "MND ring"
/equip hand "MND mitts"
/ma Paralyze <t> <----could be <bt> <stnpc> etc.

<bt> It attacks the last beast target (is that the actual name?) you or your party attacked, this can be dangerous if you just slept an add because you might end up casting on the wrong mob.

<stnpc> This and <stpc> are used so an arrow appears and you can tab between targets, either all non player characters or player characters.

<t> Normal targeting, it will perform the action on anything you are targetting the moment you press the macro. (it can be dangerous if you are targeting something you shouldn't :P )



For resting you might wanna change all your + hmp gear and if it's full rest maybe macro some +mp gear too.

Name
/equip main "Dark staff or hmp wand"
/equip ring1 "MP ring"
/equip waist "HMP belt"
/equip ring2 "MP ring"
/equip legs "RSE with +mp"
/heal

There are many other commands you can use and include in your macros, but I'll list the ones I use the most. You can check the full list of comands by typing /?

/heal To rest
/recast "Spell or ability name" Used to display the recast time of an ability or spell
/ja "ability name" <me> or <t> To use an ability
/ma "Spell" <me> or <t> To use a spell


Now, if you need to change more than 5 pieces of gear at a time you might want to dedicate a macro for general stat items, and then in the actual spell macro add the things that are specific to the spell you are casting.

(I wont talk about other ways to use macros because I have no experience with 3rd party programs)

Example: Paralyze, MND based spell, Ice based, enfeebling skill based.

Macro 1 (Generic stat gear, INT, MND, MP etc.)

Name
/equip ring1 "MND ring"
/equip legs "MND slops" <
/equip ring2 "MND ring"
/equip neck "MND badge"
/equip hand "MND mitts"
/equip feet "MND boots"

< I placed something between the 2 rings because if both rings have the same name the system might not recognize the 2nd ring change (it happens a lot), and gives you a msg about being unable to equip.


Macro 2 (Spell specific stuff)

Name
/recast "Paralyze"
/equip main "Ice staff"
/equip body "Enf skill stuff"
/equip neck "Enfeebling skill stuff"
/ma Paralyze <t>


And that's it for the equip macro basics (I think...)


You'll spend a hours tweaking and getting used to your macros but once you get em right you'll see how much easier things become, and how much it will enhance you gameplay.

It's a lot of work at first, but once you are done and see that you cast an INT based spell with +30 INT and next you cast a MND spell based spell with +30 MND and both stick for a long time everything will be worth it.

In my case I have one macro palet for each sub, some macros repeat in all the pallets while sub specific change.

Try to keep all the macros you need for a determined sub in one palet, if you have to toggle because you are using more than 20 macros at a time you'll have a lot of troubles in tough battles (although it can be done).


Edit > Fixed a macro line that said /ma feet "MND boots" @.@

[Aeni]

I'd say it's pretty much impossible to play RDM competently without equip macros once you pass level 51. You can slide through the first 50 levels without it, but once elemental staves appear, it's learn how to do it or learn just how badly your spells will get resisted. :P


Icemage

Icemage speaks the truth. In fact, I've learn to depend on equip swapping in macros since my 20s.

However, I'm not so sure about the whole resist issue anymore. I know I've argued with this (even with Icemage I think) about how I couldn't see the difference in my low 50s with elemental staves. However, ever since I've hit 62, I noticed I don't get much resists on my enfeebling w/o my Tabard on O_o As long as I have my staves ... weird. In fact, a level ago, I went to fight against processionaires which are known to resist enfeebling attempts like mad. But I had my VC on the whole time not even swapping my AF in for enfeebling and it stuck 80~85% of the time... with staves. So now I'm a believer of staves. When I get my hands on a spider torque (I hate these 3 PLDs that camp it because I know they are only doing it for gil and what's a poor RDM like me to do? :rolleyes: ) I shouldn't have too much problems w/o my AF Tabard.

[Raydeus]

However, I'm not so sure about the whole resist issue anymore. I know I've argued with this (even with Icemage I think) about how I couldn't see the difference in my low 50s with elemental staves. However, ever since I've hit 62, I noticed I don't get much resists on my enfeebling w/o my Tabard on O_o As long as I have my staves ... weird. In fact, a level ago, I went to fight against processionaires which are known to resist enfeebling attempts like mad. But I had my VC on the whole time not even swapping my AF in for enfeebling and it stuck 80~85% of the time... with staves. So now I'm a believer of staves. When I get my hands on a spider torque (I hate these 3 PLDs that camp it because I know they are only doing it for gil and what's a poor RDM like me to do? :rolleyes: ) I shouldn't have too much problems w/o my AF Tabard.

I guess its because staves enhance elemental acc (maybe potency?) and not actually Enfeebling skill, since we have an already high enf. skill a +elemental acc boost is easier to notice. :thumbsup:


Either way with +skill and +stat macros you'll easily hit a 95%+ or more stick rate. I know because ever since I started using equip macros I never get resisted... except for that last demon wave in Dynamis-Xarcabard... :vent:

[Esoa]

Why are people using wands? Post-51 shouldn't you have a staff equipped 100% of the time?

[Aeni]

Why are people using wands? Post-51 shouldn't you have a staff equipped 100% of the time?

No. Depends on the race. As a mithra, I used wands exclusively up until level 62, when my lack of MND became less of an issue and where staves benefits started to shine more. I guess there's an equilibrium or a "breaking point" if you will with many jobs/races. At level 52, I was getting mad resists with staves, but better sticking and proccing with wands. That started to change somewhere after I hit 60...

[Icemage]

If the rest of your gear is enough to ensure a reasonable (90%+) stick rate on your enfeebles without a staff, you can certainly forgo the staff and tack on a +INT/+MND wand to increase spell potency.

For enfeebling magic, staves just increase accuracy - they don't do anything for your spell potency, while some spells like Slow get stronger in effect as your MND score increases.


Icemage

[Draco Dagon]

Micro equip macro guide (sort of ^^; ) :

First the equip slots.


main sub range ammo

head neck ear1 ear2

body hands ring1 ring2

back waist legs feet


To use an equip macro all you gotta do is type

/equip slot "name of the item"


To equip a promise badge you'd have to type something like this:

/equip neck "Promise Badge" <- (You can use auto translator to get the name of the item right, it's the same with spells and everything else.)

Note that if the item's name has more than one word you gotta use " " or the system wont recognize it.


Then you gotta use the limited space you have in each macro (6 lines) the best way possible.

Name
/equip main "Casting Wand"
/equip ring1 "MND ring"
/equip neck "MND badge"
/equip ring2 "MND ring"
/equip hand "MND mitts"
/ma Paralyze <t> <----could be <bt> <stnpc> etc.

<bt> It attacks the last beast target (is that the actual name?) you or your party attacked, this can be dangerous if you just slept an add because you might end up casting on the wrong mob.

<stnpc> This and <stpc> are used so an arrow appears and you can tab between targets, either all non player characters or player characters.

<t> Normal targeting, it will perform the action on anything you are targetting the moment you press the macro. (it can be dangerous if you are targeting something you shouldn't :P )



For resting you might wanna change all your + hmp gear and if it's full rest maybe macro some +mp gear too.

Name
/equip main "Dark staff or hmp wand"
/equip ring1 "MP ring"
/equip waist "HMP belt"
/equip ring2 "MP ring"
/equip legs "RSE with +mp"
/heal

There are many other commands you can use and include in your macros, but I'll list the ones I use the most. You can check the full list of comands by typing /?

/heal To rest
/recast "Spell or ability name" Used to display the recast time of an ability or spell
/ja "ability name" <me> or <t> To use an ability
/ma "Spell" <me> or <t> To use a spell


Now, if you need to change more than 5 pieces of gear at a time you might want to dedicate a macro for general stat items, and then in the actual spell macro add the things that are specific to the spell you are casting.

(I wont talk about other ways to use macros because I have no experience with 3rd party programs)

Example: Paralyze, MND based spell, Ice based, enfeebling skill based.

Macro 1 (Generic stat gear, INT, MND, MP etc.)

Name
/equip ring1 "MND ring"
/equip legs "MND slops" <
/equip ring2 "MND ring"
/equip neck "MND badge"
/equip hand "MND mitts"
/ma feet "MND boots"

< I placed something between the 2 rings because if both rings have the same name the system might not recognize the 2nd ring change (it happens a lot), and gives you a msg about being unable to equip.


Macro 2 (Spell specific stuff)

Name
/recast "Paralyze"
/equip main "Ice staff"
/equip body "Enf skill stuff"
/equip neck "Enfeebling skill stuff"
/ma Paralyze <t>


And that's it for the equip macro basics (I think...)


You'll spend a hours tweaking and getting used to your macros but once you get em right you'll see how much easier things become, and how much it will enhance you gameplay.

It's a lot of work at first, but once you are done and see that you cast an INT based spell with +30 INT and next you cast a MND spell based spell with +30 MND and both stick for a long time everything will be worth it.

In my case I have one macro palet for each sub, some macros repeat in all the pallets while sub specific change.

Try to keep all the macros you need for a determined sub in one palet, if you have to toggle because you are using more than 20 macros at a time you'll have a lot of troubles in tough battles (although it can be done).

Sounds fun...

Okay, another question: how should I level my enfeebling skill and how often purposely? (Not that I have much of a problem leveling it yet, but there will eventually come those times.)

[IfritnoItazura]

^_^;

If you're RDM, is it possible that your Enfeebling Magic skill can fall behind?

[Raydeus]

Sounds fun...

Okay, another question: how should I level my enfeebling skill and how often purposely? (Not that I have much of a problem leveling it yet, but there will eventually come those times.)

Don't worry after you get used to equip macros they are great... and then you'll use em for everything heheh. :biggrin:


There's no way your enf skill falls behind, you will always cast at least 3 debuffs per mob so there's no chance you'll fall behind.

Enhancing is easy because of Refresh and Haste so it will lvl almost as fast as your Enf. skill.

Dark magic on the other hand will fall behind if you dont Bio, Drain/Aspir often.

Healing and Divine will be way slower though, specially Divine but since there's only one spell we can use that uses that skill (Flash) and it isn't a big deal really.



Edit> I just noticed I didn't include Banish in divine but... does anyone use that? Most of the time I completely forget it's there ^^;

[Aeni]

^_^;

If you're RDM, is it possible that your Enfeebling Magic skill can fall behind?

Yes it can. If you're in a party with another RDM and that RDM is designated as enfeebler and nuker and you're stuck with main healing duties because you have /WHM but the other RDM doesn't.

sux2bme

[Draco Dagon]

Don't worry after you get used to equip macros they are great... and then you'll use em for everything heheh. :biggrin:


There's no way your enf skill falls behind, you will always cast at least 3 debuffs per mob so there's no chance you'll fall behind.

Enhancing is easy because of Refresh and Haste so it will lvl almost as fast as your Enf. skill.

Dark magic on the other hand will fall behind if you dont Bio, Drain/Aspir often.

Healing and Divine will be way slower though, specially Divine but since there's only one spell we can use that uses that skill (Flash) and it isn't a big deal really.



Edit> I just noticed I didn't include Banish in divine but... does anyone use that? Most of the time I completely forget it's there ^^;

As of Level 46, these are my magic skills: Divine 85, Healing 122, Enhancing 96, Enfeebling 140, Elemental 128, Dark 42.

[WishMaster3K]

My Healing Magic just broke 190, but only because I've been Curaga and Cure 3 Spamming in Melee PTs and powerleveling like mad -.-

Not sure how Aeni got away with it, but the general gear selection sucks postAF and preJSE/Errant, so I kept AF on anyway. But oh well, different strokes :P

I had straight RSE on until AF (Cause Taru's are MND Starved ;.;) But i noticed other races use RSE1 long into the game, basically until RSE2.

And AENI!!! Shaaaaaaame! Have you learned nothing? Don't waste money on the ST, wait a level and get the Enfeebling. The Spider Torque is for lowbies and wome-

Oh, nvm >.>; (haha, j/k)

In any case, it's true that MND and INT affect the duration and strength of a spell once it lands, but if your spells can't land, then you'll need Accuracy and Skill. It sounds hard, but when put into layman's terms, it's quite simple.

A Boxer can't land a punch without having the skill. A boxer also needs strength to further increase his punch damage once he can land them.

Just think about that next time you're resisted. At my level, with merits and staves, I more or less don't need to use any Enfeebling+ Gear for spells that are dependant on stats to boost proc rate and duration (Like Slow and Paralyze.)

I'm not sure if spells like Gravity and Blind benefit from having more INT over Enfeebling (assuming, of course, that you can land them), but Apple Pie has said that spells like Poison have a damage ratio based on your Enfeebling skill at the time of landing.

Staves and such are close, but still a world away. Focusing on your current gear and not getting ahead of yourself is fine.

And go back to the Red Cape, arguably, Red Cape +1 is one of the best capes RDMs can buy, then you keep that until the 70s when you can buy the Rainbow Cape. If the Grammary Cape had a +2 or a +3 to Magic Accuracy, I'd use that, at your level, but I'm still debating if the +1 is worth buying at all for anything.

[Draco Dagon]

Well, I just reached lvl 50 tonight with RDM and I'm getting used to equipment macros right now too.

[Karinya]

Don't waste money on the ST, wait a level and get the Enfeebling.
Wow, prices on your server must be very different. On mine, Spider is 500K, Enfeebling 3.5M. Unless you're obscenely rich or fighting gods regularly, there's no reason to spend an extra 3 million for 2 more skill. If you're only moderately rich, there are better places to put it, and if you're not rich at all you don't even have that much.

On top of that, you can camp your own Spider solo; you'll need a party and a bunch of seals to try for Enfeebling.

Unless you have hundreds of millions of gil, you need to *think* about what provides the most value for the gil that you do have. Spending everything on one or two of the shiniest super-expensive toys is not necessarily a good idea.

[Murphie]

Seriously. You can just camp your own Spider Torque if you want, so I don't see why you wouldn't at least give it a try.

Not that the enfeebling isn't really nice. I'm just saying. I generally always choose something I can do myself over something that I need help with or that I just buy my way through.

[Kirsteena]

If you are using rdm endgame, then yes, go for the enfeebling. If you have seals to burn, try for it, however, spider torque will serve you in the short term, or even long term if all you are doing is using rdm for merits.

[Raydeus]

Well, I just reached lvl 50 tonight with RDM and I'm getting used to equipment macros right now too.

(Congratulations!) :thumbsup:



Not that the enfeebling isn't really nice. I'm just saying. I generally always choose something I can do myself over something that I need help with or that I just buy my way through.

+2 skill isn't worth 3 million gil unless you are doing gods or stuff like that, heck even the +5 from spider is barely worth it at that lvl.

RDM enf. skill is really high, so +7 skill at lvl 65 is 3% increase or so (and the benefit decreases as you level up), which really means nothing unless you are fighting mobs way higher than a normal xp mob (not to mention you already have +15 skill from your AF body at that lvl).

From my experience the resist rate at those levels is more dependant on how much can you boost your INT/MND than it is about skill. So equip macros and elemental staves should be all you need, I'd take +5 MND from Promise and +3 INT from Philomath stole over enf. torque any day.

Now, if you fight gods and mobs that are a much higher lvl compared to your current skill (around 10 lvls) that's when you should focus on +skill. Those are the fights where having +7 from the torque, +15 from AFv2 Chapeau and another +15 from AF body is really sweet.

[Murphie]

That's why I wouldn't spend my gil on the Enfeelbing Torque at that point in the game. I'd just camp a Spider Torque for now and sell it later when I wanted to upgrade.

[Aeni]

And AENI!!! Shaaaaaaame! Have you learned nothing? Don't waste money on the ST, wait a level and get the Enfeebling. The Spider Torque is for lowbies and wome-

H4X!1111

But seriously, ST's are good enough for me. I've been stuck at 64 for a while now, trying to save up money for an Enf. Torque though. And no, I haven't gotten an ST yet either. Was about to, then saw it jump to 1.2 million from 600K in one week. Then saw Enf. Torque edge down about 2sh. Now all that's left is to procure funding.

Yes, I'm weird people. I stopped leveling DRK at 60 because I wanted to get my Haubu. For several months. At least this time around I have enough experience and several crafts to accelerate my down time. Plus, I'm enjoying leveling other jobs too, so it's a good break.

[Icemage]

Enfeebling Magic skill is extremely potent in XP parties. I merited Enfeebling as a WHM, and I was able to tear through even IT++ enemies with my enfeebles as a result of that plus my Enfeebling Torque.

There's a very visible difference in enfeebling accuracy with and without Enfeebling Torque pre-75. Even with merits, I still miss enfeebles once in a while at level 74 with 7 levels of merits (+14 skill), plus an Enfeebling Torque and AF armor. If I forget to swap in the Torque (sometimes happens right after Convert) my accuracy suffers noticeably.


Icemage

[Aeni]

Enfeebling Magic skill is extremely potent in XP parties. I merited Enfeebling as a WHM, and I was able to tear through even IT++ enemies with my enfeebles as a result of that plus my Enfeebling Torque.

There's a very visible difference in enfeebling accuracy with and without Enfeebling Torque pre-75. Even with merits, I still miss enfeebles once in a while at level 74 with 7 levels of merits (+14 skill), plus an Enfeebling Torque and AF armor. If I forget to swap in the Torque (sometimes happens right after Convert) my accuracy suffers noticeably.


Icemage

Don't forget, though, the elemental day will affect your spells, depending on which ones you're using. Don't completely blame it on your equipment, skill level and what have you. What was that saying about there's gonna be good days and bad? SE developers seem to enjoy sprinkling the semantics of real life wherever they can in this game...

[Hamlet]

From my experience the resist rate at those levels is more dependant on how much can you boost your INT/MND than it is about skill. So equip macros and elemental staves should be all you need, I'd take +5 MND from Promise and +3 INT from Philomath stole over enf. torque any day.

That's the opposite of "common red mage knowledge", but I'd be really interested if it was true. According to common knowledge, you should get 2.5 enfeebling skill from the badge and 1.5 bonus from the stole. Certainly not better than the spider torque and especially not the enfeebling torque.

But, it's the damndest thing, the one time I was fighting mobs that were actually IT to 75, in Ullegard Range, I was having some trouble with resists on my debuffs. So, just for fun, I tried out debuffing with the errant body on (with big boosts to int and mnd, but no enfeebling +), and I SWEAR my enfeebs were landing more often. Granted, it was one party, and a limited test, but I found it really surprising.

But, assuming common knowledge is correct, I'd say that the enfeebling torque is nice, but not necessary. I got one, but it was before inflation. It was still expensive, and still probably cost the same if you convert pre inflation gil with post inflation gil. You're still going to get some resists on regular xp mobs no matter what, so anything to cut that down is a bonus. I don't think you should farm your ass for weeks for the difference between spider and enfeebling, but if you have the gil, it's not a bad place to spend it. It also shows that you really care about your job. I'm not saying you should care what other people think, but since enfeebling is the major single thing rdms should gear up for, it just makes sense.

Of course, if common knowledge is wrong, then you're better off with a promise badge lol.

[Mhurron]

+2 skill isn't worth 3 million gil unless you are doing gods or stuff like that, heck even the +5 from spider is barely worth it at that lvl.

RDM enf. skill is really high, so +7 skill at lvl 65 is 3% increase or so (and the benefit decreases as you level up), which really means nothing unless you are fighting mobs way higher than a normal xp mob (not to mention you already have +15 skill from your AF body at that lvl).

From my experience the resist rate at those levels is more dependant on how much can you boost your INT/MND than it is about skill. Take off your Tabard and have no other +skill, replace it with a tonne of MND or INT and you'll have a hell of a time landing an enfeeble on an EXP mob. Even the +5 from the Spider Torque or +7 Enfeebling Torque is like getting another level of skill without waiting to actually level. It can make the difference of Enfeebling an IT as an IT or fighting an IT and getting exp from an IT while only enfeebling it like it was a VT. The Promise Badge won't do that.

INT and MND is more a relation of how potent the enfeeble is. Having a lot of MND probably makes your Paralyze kick in a lot when it lands, but who cares when most of the time its resisted.

I don't see the Enfeebling Torque worth the several millions over the Spider that it is, but you should have one of them. I couldn't really afford either, so I camped the Dune Widow. 1/11 and it was really under camped. Hell after 11 times killing it and getting the guarenteed 3 Spider Webs that drop, I had enough to go buy the thing, I just didn't have to.

Depends on the race. As a mithra, I used wands exclusively up until level 62, when my lack of MND became less of an issue and where staves benefits started to shine more. I guess there's an equilibrium or a "breaking point" if you will with many jobs/racesGoblin Mushpot will give more MND then any wand will and you'll get the 10% to that element benefit of the Elemental Staves.

[Raydeus]

That's the opposite of "common red mage knowledge", but I'd be really interested if it was true. According to common knowledge, you should get 2.5 enfeebling skill from the badge and 1.5 bonus from the stole. Certainly not better than the spider torque and especially not the enfeebling torque.


Maybe, but the question here is: What do you really need?

+2-3% in enf. skill (which is very high already) or a +8-10% on your MND stat.

I'm not saying +skill isn't helpful, what I'm saying is resists are not only based on skill but also in your stats compared to the mob's stats. So +5MND/3INT will always help more than +5-7 skill for me.

Take off your Tabard and have no other +skill, replace it with a tonne of MND or INT and you'll have a hell of a time landing an enfeeble on an EXP mob. Even the +5 from the Spider Torque or +7 Enfeebling Torque is like getting another level of skill without waiting to actually level. It can make the difference of Enfeebling an IT as an IT or fighting an IT and getting exp from an IT while only enfeebling it like it was a VT. The Promise Badge won't do that.

I've tested it on xp parties way too many times, there was a time when I tried using Spider torque but it didn't make any difference so I kept MND/INT gear instead.

What I did back in those days (at least a year or more ago) was test my enfs with MND/INT gear on, and then without it replacing it with +skill (tabard and spider), then try with staves, etc. etc.

Enfs always sticked better with a higher MND/INT and staves, and the +5 skill from ST didn't make any noticeable difference.

In the end the MND/INT + Staves + Tabard combo is what worked the best, which is why I've been using that since. I never get resisted, (except for a few cases in Dynamis Xarcabard) and I never got resisted at lvl 60 using that combo, after getting the staves I never needed ES to stick a Sleep on a IT unless it was way beyond the lvl of things you'd xp on (IT++++++++).



So at least in my experience MND/INT have a greater impact than the +skill from torques, but every RDM has to try things by themselves and find the combo they feel more comfortable with. All we can really do is give the OP options so he can choose what works best for him. :thumbsup:

[Icemage]

Maybe, but the question here is: What do you really need?

+2-3% in enf. skill (which is very high already) or a +8-10% on your MND stat.

I'm not saying +skill isn't helpful, what I'm saying is resists are not only based on skill but also in your stats compared to the mob's stats. So +5MND/3INT will always help more than +5-7 skill for me.


Eh.. +stats are important, up to a point. You can't just overload on Enfeebling Magic and neglect INT/MND entirely, but...

Against XP-worthy enemies, it's impossible prior to level 75 to hit diminishing returns on +Enfeebling Magic.

Against those same enemies, adding more than about 20 points of INT/MND does little to nothing for your stick rate, even if potency increases.

I've tested it on xp parties way too many times, there was a time when I tried using Spider torque but it didn't make any difference so I kept MND/INT gear instead.

What I did back in those days (at least a year or more ago) was test my enfs with MND/INT gear on, and then without it replacing it with +skill (tabard and spider), then try with staves, etc. etc.

Enfs always sticked better with a higher MND/INT and staves, and the +5 skill from ST didn't make any noticeable difference.

In the end the MND/INT + Staves + Tabard combo is what worked the best, which is why I've been using that since. I never get resisted, (except for a few cases in Dynamis Xarcabard) and I never got resisted at lvl 60 using that combo, after getting the staves I never needed ES to stick a Sleep on a IT unless it was way beyond the lvl of things you'd xp on (IT++++++++).

So at least in my experience MND/INT have a greater impact than the +skill from torques, but every RDM has to try things by themselves and find the combo they feel more comfortable with. All we can really do is give the OP options so he can choose what works best for him. :thumbsup:

Depends on what you're doing. I was able to XP in Bhaflau Thickets at level 63 on RDM and still got a reasonable stick rate on Paralyze, considering the enemies were 15+ levels above me. With AF Tabard + Enfeebling Torque + 12 (at the time) merits, I was getting about a 50-60% stick rate. Without the Tabard and Torque, my stick rate on Paralyze was way lower, maybe closer to 20%.

Even now, at level 74, XPing in Bhaflau, I get the odd resist or two from Mamool Ja (Lv80+) if I forget to equip my Torque and just use a staff and AF. With the Torque, stick rate is close to 100%.


Icemage

[Aeni]

Goblin Mushpot will give more MND then any wand will and you'll get the 10% to that element benefit of the Elemental Staves.

I think someone recommended that at one time, but my resist rates with it wasn't any better. Plus, the other foods I use give better mp/tick while resting and/or boost to max MP, like snoll gelato, for instance.

(Need to explain that I mean having that much more MND than from a wand didn't do much more ... but just having the wand on hand instead worked wonders for me at that time in my 50s ...)

[Hamlet]

The thing that's really bugged me, and will continue to until someone tells me SE said something specifically, is the relationship of int and mnd to enfeebling skill, and what enfeebling skill does exactly.

It's rather clear that elemental skill affects the accuracy of nukes. It's very clear that 2dex = 1 accuracy, because SE said so that one time, and 2str=1 attack, because you can look at your attack.

But I think the relationship of 2int=1 enfeebling on an "int based" debuff, like gravity, has never been stated blatently by SE to be true, and I don't think that SE's ever said that enfeebling skill has the exact same relationship to debuffs as elemental has with nukes.

[Raydeus]

The thing that's really bugged me, and will continue to until someone tells me SE said something specifically, is the relationship of int and mnd to enfeebling skill, and what enfeebling skill does exactly.

It's rather clear that elemental skill affects the accuracy of nukes. It's very clear that 2dex = 1 accuracy, because SE said so that one time, and 2str=1 attack, because you can look at your attack.

But I think the relationship of 2int=1 enfeebling on an "int based" debuff, like gravity, has never been stated blatently by SE to be true, and I don't think that SE's ever said that enfeebling skill has the exact same relationship to debuffs as elemental has with nukes.
Even if stats didn't give you spell acc (which I doubt) having a higher MND/INT stat compared to your oponent plays a big role on sticking a debuff and the effect is gonna have (potency and time). I guess is pretty much the same way your STR is measured against the mob's VIT when you hit em to determine how much dmg you are gonna do.

In my experience casting a debuff with +10 INT/MND and casting the same debuff with +40 something is the difference between having just decent stick rate and having a 99.5% stick rate.

So I dunno, you gotta go with what makes you feel more comfortable with your debuffing regardless of what other people say. :thumbsup:

[Icemage]

Read my post above. +INT/MND stops helping you stick enfeebles after your stats rise above that of the target. More specifically, I have great difficulty sticking Paralyze on anything above Tough as a WHM75 with 7 levels of Enfeebling Merits unless I tack on a bunch more +Enfeebling skill.

I tested it one day against Behemoth. I stacked on +58 MND, and still couldn't land Paralyze reliably against it, while my RDM LS mate stripped down almost to nothing and was able to land Paralyze almost at will.

Another good example: I usually go as WHM/BLM into Dynamis, and when I first started (I'm Tarutaru), with only an elemental staff and AF1 body for WHM (+10 Enfeebling), I could barely land Sleep/Sleepga at all without using Elemental Seal, and even then sometimes it would fail even stacking +20 or more INT. Might have gotten a 20% stick rate on a good day.

Now, with AF1 body, Enfeebling Torque, Elite Beret, AF2 gloves and an Anrin Obi, but only a fistful of +INT, my stick rate is closer to 90%, despite way lower INT.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Read my post above.

I did, but aparently you didn't read my posts so I'll have to quote myself.

Now, if you fight gods and mobs that are a much higher lvl compared to your current skill (around 10 lvls) that's when you should focus on +skill. Those are the fights where having +7 from the torque, +15 from AFv2 Chapeau and another +15 from AF body is really sweet.



Now, I still don't know why are you comparing WHM's enf skill (C rating, 225 cap @75) with RDM's (A+ rating, 276 @75).

In other words, WHM has at lvl 75 the skill a RDM would have at lvl 65, if you want to compare WHM's skill with a RDM's then a T mob would be at least 14 levels higher than you (skillwise) so in reality you aren't trying to enf a T mob but an IT+++++++ compared to your skill as a WHM.

With that much lack of skill of course +skill items will help a WHM more than any +MND ever will.

However since RDM has a different skill rating +5 or even +7 skill really isn't much, at lvl 65 is barely 3%, at lvl 75 is 2.5% increase, and RDM has lower MND than WHM so +MND would help a RDM more than +skill.

But like I said, every RDM has to do their own tests and find out what works best for them, if you wanna go all +skill then do so.

[Bricklayer]

Thanks to OP for opening this thread. As a 23RDM currently lvl'ing subs before the push to 75, this guide is priceless. I took about a 1-2 year hiatus from FF and just came back recently, and I had totally forgotten about equip macros (though they are probably less critical at my level). Nevertheless, at lower levels, I decided to throw in melee and TP. Now that I've started hanging back to cast enf's and backup heal, I think I need to revisit my macros, and start looking more carefully at my gear too.

Thanks to Raydeus and Icemage especially for their sagely advice. I learned more here in 20 minutes of reading than I have anywhere else.

-Bricklayer

P.S. Aeni, 猫カツ丼?! How about 犬カツ丼? My fav is still カリオムレツ ^^

[Icemage]

I
Now, I still don't know why are you comparing WHM's enf skill (C rating, 225 cap @75) with RDM's (A+ rating, 276 @75).

In other words, WHM has at lvl 75 the skill a RDM would have at lvl 65, if you want to compare WHM's skill with a RDM's then a T mob would be at least 14 levels higher than you (skillwise) so in reality you aren't trying to enf a T mob but an IT+++++++ compared to your skill as a WHM.

With that much lack of skill of course +skill items will help a WHM more than any +MND ever will.


I was pointing out that stacking huge +MND hits diminishing returns much earlier than stacking +Enfeebling. I'm not saying +MND is bad, but it's pretty easy to get hold of +MND gear for RDM (Red Cape/+1, Pentitent's Rope, Devotee's Mitts/+1, Magic Cuisses/Errant/Mahatma, whatever else.). Once you pass about level 35, it's pretty easy to get +20 MND or better, which seems to be the point where diminishing returns kicks in against XP-worthy enemies.


However since RDM has a different skill rating +5 or even +7 skill really isn't much, at lvl 65 is barely 3%, at lvl 75 is 2.5% increase, and RDM has lower MND than WHM so +MND would help a RDM more than +skill.

But like I said, every RDM has to do their own tests and find out what works best for them, if you wanna go all +skill then do so.

The point being that you can still get close to or over the diminishing returns for +MND and still fit in the +Enfeebling gear; it's not really a one-or-the-other choice. Sure, there are going to be times when you won't need too much extra skill (level 75 party in Bhaflau with full merits and HQ staves, for instance), but aside from those casis, any time you're fighting IT or tougher enemies, I find +skill to be far more effective at landing spells than +MND, if for no other reason than it's so easy to add more MND.


Icemage

[Draco Dagon]

Thanks to OP for opening this thread. As a 23RDM currently lvl'ing subs before the push to 75, this guide is priceless. I took about a 1-2 year hiatus from FF and just came back recently, and I had totally forgotten about equip macros (though they are probably less critical at my level). Nevertheless, at lower levels, I decided to throw in melee and TP. Now that I've started hanging back to cast enf's and backup heal, I think I need to revisit my macros, and start looking more carefully at my gear too.

Thanks to Raydeus and Icemage especially for their sagely advice. I learned more here in 20 minutes of reading than I have anywhere else.

-Bricklayer

Heh, I would like to thank myself too... :D

[Aeni]

The point being that you can still get close to or over the diminishing returns for +MND and still fit in the +Enfeebling gear; it's not really a one-or-the-other choice. Sure, there are going to be times when you won't need too much extra skill (level 75 party in Bhaflau with full merits and HQ staves, for instance), but aside from those casis, any time you're fighting IT or tougher enemies, I find +skill to be far more effective at landing spells than +MND, if for no other reason than it's so easy to add more MND.


Icemage

What I don't clearly understand is the relationship of our skills and stats with respect to the monsters we're fighting. It is a general knowledge among veteran players that monsters are tiered out. For example, what you will need to fight in order to get x amount of exp at one level range will generally not be the same at another level range. More specifically, the higher the level the characters are, the more difficult the monsters need to be fought in order to gain the same amount of exp.

This scaling is not linear by all means. It is very dramatic. An example of this is fighting clippers as a level 35 WHM on Qufim. You can see the amount of damage you deal and then take against this basic of all monsters. Then you fight Robber Crabs as a level 74 WHM. There's a really big difference in the length of time it takes to complete a battle, let alone the sheer difficulty of your skills making an impact against the monster itself.

This leads me to believe that what benefit +20 MND gave to you at level 30 is not comparable to what you're getting out of it at level 70. Hence, I believe that you not only need to increase the skill of your abilities, but also increase the base stats proportionately.

Hence I'm a firm believer that if you are going to raise x amount of enfeebling skill, your MND bonuses better scale up to par, or you're not going to see much of an impact at all, if any.

[Icemage]

Actually, the opposite is true, Aeni. Before level 51 (elemental staves), you have to overload on MND and INT to land enfeebles because you have no other practical ways to improve your magical accuracy with those spells.

Once you get staves, accuracy goes way up, and you really just need to be within "reasonable" range of the monster's stats to land spells effectively, at which point your Enfeebling skill becomes your primary weapon for increasing your effectiveness. You can't neglect MND, but it actually becomes de-emphasized after you get to 51, rather than the opposite, and at the same time as you rise in level, the +MND gears you begin to get access to start to get more and more potent, making it even easier to reach that "reasonable" level.

By and large, the monsters do have a tendency to be a level or two higher as you creep up towards 75, but you know how we tend to gain less than 1 stat point per level in any given stat? Monsters seem to be the same way; a few have higher than average MND, but even 3 levels difference amounts to maybe 2 extra points of MND.

And of course, at level 75, hardly anything you XP on will be higher than Very Tough, so your need for both Enfeebling and MND plummet at that point. They're still useful and you shouldn't totally neglect them, of course, but strictly speaking, you no longer need to obsess with either stat the same way you need to at lower levels unless facing HNMs who are way above your level (Fafnir is level 90, for instance).

I'm functional at level 74 with around +20 MND, and I'm not even trying hard - if I wanted to I could bump it quite easily to +35 or better, but that would greatly increase my inventory and macro clutter without much visible impact.

It's true that Slow and Paralyze do get a little bit stronger with more MND, but to me, successfully landing Slow for sure is better than failing more often, but with slightly (and I do mean slightly) more Slow effect with higher MND. Paralyze is even more flaky; the effect is subtle at best, and well, it won't be Paralyzed if your spell doesn't land at all...


Icemage

[Aeni]

All very good points Ice. I respect your knowledge and am grateful for your sharing of them. I just had one concern:

You can't neglect MND, but it actually becomes de-emphasized after you get to 51, rather than the opposite, and at the same time as you rise in level, the +MND gears you begin to get access to start to get more and more potent, making it even easier to reach that "reasonable" level.

Do you think this varies from race to race or with any other factors involved? For example, what kind of equipment access a player has (Some players who are playing RDM right now have already had mroe than one job to 75 already and probably have some kind of meriting) Having rare/ex items such as the Tamas (sp?) ring from CoP can also greatly affect a player's performance.

What I'm thinking is that the experience sometimes given may not take this into consideration, because we sometimes do get a different perspective and at times this misunderstanding can get in the way of figuring out what's the best way for someone to gear up when playing a job class.

[WishMaster3K]

Well honestly, it depends. With my full Enfeebling setup, I think I have 304 Enfeebling.

Even against ITs like the Wyverns in Bhfalau, this is overkill. If I instead stack my errant gear for the MND, Paralyze doesn't last as long, but it procs at least double. It was at this point that the diminishing return is Time =/= Potency.

Mobs die fast, so having it paralyzed more often for a shorter period of time was better for the tanks/melee.

But then again, this is at 75. Before I got to 72, I was generally in pts that overhunted. Someplace like Lufaise Meadows or Ule Range have monsters that are still IT, and I can actually get resisted, and the fights are noticeably longer than in AU areas.

So it depends on the mob, but as Ice said, there is no one answer, and you'll need to see the diminishing returns yourself.

Also, we have gear that adds dynamics to our job, such as JSE Head and Body.

I first thought they were worthless, but on certain mobs (Specifically, the Ebony Puddings my BLM friend solos) I can see how Magic Acc would help me land consistent 600+ nukes instead of being Resisted left and right.

The Best answer for this is to have all the gear you can and swap accordingly.

I actively edit my Paralyze Macro for +Enfeebling or +MND based on where we move camp.

If we were to fight uber leet sauce mobs, I'd use JSE, if not, I'd use Errant/AF.

While this is the unfortunate truth, we can't just go one way because we are limited by gear. Maybe it's because after we got AF all the way up until the early 70s, we got used to not lugging an entire crate of gear around, but gear swapping or at least, carrying gear, becomes very pronounced at later levels.

Or, of course, you can store it in your Mog Locker, like I do, and just carry gear based on camp. No need to stay 59/60 in your backpack :P

[Aeni]

Even against ITs like the Wyverns in Bhfalau, this is overkill. If I instead stack my errant gear for the MND, Paralyze doesn't last as long, but it procs at least double. It was at this point that the diminishing return is Time =/= Potency.

I noticed that too last night off of processionaires. I ate mushroom stew and kept on my VC (Because the WAR/NIN d/c'd 5min. into our camp and we pretty much exp'd with 5 until the BLM d/c'd and then we still exp'd with 4 and the higest member in pt was only 65) at no time did I bother putting on AF, because from the previous week when I exp'd on these same monsters, my resist rate was still the same. The only difference was when I had my AF the last time, I used Snoll Gelatos since I was the only magic DD in that party. So, anyway, I noticed that with a lot of +MND, my enfeebs were proccing hella lot, but didn't last as long. Well, that's a skewed perspective, because we had like 1 and then 2 members short of a full during the night, so of course the fights lasted a long time.

Still, my enfeebs landed 85~90% which is a good rate IMO off of mid-IT mobs (Tier 6 crawlers to boot) The proccing almost tripled and at one point, the "Monster is paralyzed" was spamming the log which made me feel good. LOL My LS mates have seen me pull this off time and time again and they're all amazed, saying that's better than Ninjutsu level enfeebling...

[WishMaster3K]

Yup. NINs can affect their Enfeebs by swapping in INT (I believe) but they already do a lot of work with Enmity, TP/Haste, HP, Damage Reduction and Evasion Gear.

But thanks, Aeni. Good to see that you can do testing at the Mid Levels.

The 60s were so piss boring for me. .

[Icemage]

If your stick rate without +Enfeebling gears is floating near 90%, then by all means stack MND instead. Unfortunately, you normally only see that sort of success rate against T to low VT enemies, which basically means you only get those results in the 70s, as the vast majority of parties in go after VT to IT enemies for the most part.


Icemage