Raging Fist numbers

[nanatsu]

At level 43-44, my Raging Fists top out anywhere from 260-300+ Is this normal? I feel like it should be doing more. Every now and then I'll get 400+ when I get all my hits in, but that's not often. More often than not it's around the 300 mark...

[Gawaine]

Try so acc + gear to land every hit, if that dont work then switch to str and attack gear, also depends what your fighting.

[Ryddr]

Assuming you haven't already, I would suggest you purchase two sets of gear. One set with accuracy/haste (haste optional), and another set built around STR. Then, before using your WS, use a macro to switch from your TP building gear to your WS gear, boost, berserk, Raging Fist. Also, because Raging Fist is an accuracy based WS with major damage fluxuation due to missed punches, your WS set should still have quite a bit of your TP set in it. You wouldn't want to switch to all STR and then miss every punch, hehe. However, this is also dependent on the food you choose to use. If you use accuracy food, you'll be able to wear more STR gear for your WS, but if you use STR + attack food, you'll need more acc gear in your WS

[nanatsu]

Well I already switch in atk and acc gear. I just wanted to know if my numbers were normal for a mnk, so I'd know if I needed to go ahead and step up my gear now rather than later. For TP gear I have a Tilt Belt and Venerer Ring. I also have a Jujitsu Gi. My weapon is also Mythril Knuckles +1 so that's another +3 accuracy right there. I also own two Puisiance Rings, an Assailant's Ring, Purple Belt and an Ochidos Kote. I also tried different foods. I tried Sole Sushi, Dhalmel Pie, and Rice Dumplings and changed my gear accordingly. It all seemed pretty inconclusive to me. The only time I hit the 400+ mark was when we fought VT and I was eating attack food. Sole Sushi seemed to make my ws damage more consistent, but I never got above 250* with it. Plus my regular melee damage was a little disappointing compared to meat, even if I got a few more shots in. So... I don't know if I need to work on accuracy gear, add more str, or what... It seems like landing all your hits is important, but if you can't do it with attack food, your dmg is still going to be meh. At least that's how it seemed to me last night. We were fighting crawlers and Hornflies in Crawler's Nest. I seemed to do better on the crawlers than the flies.

Any advice? Is it just because of my level or should I be able to do more?


*EDIT: Actually I should say that with sole sushi I never got above 250 dmg. It was consistently around that dmg, while with atk food I would sometimes get higher, and sometimes as low as 180 or so.

[Gawaine]

I think you are doing okay for the level your at. Are you also using berserk and boosting before your ws that is a must as well, but IMO I would guess ACC is better with raging fists due to the multiple hits, better to land them all then increase dmg and miss.

[Ryddr]

Perhaps character race is playing a role as well? Last weekend in my party @ Gustav Tunnel, our 42 Elvaan Mnk landed his highest Raging Fist in the 530s, and his average was 400+. He seemed to be more or less, messing around. All of his gear was expensive and nice except for the Fungus Hat he wore. I guess he wanted to like he had an O. Hat on. Anyway, he only threw one Raging Fist over 500 on IT, so it's not saying much; must've been a crit (or maybe a few?). My earlier suggestions came from what I saw him doing. Switching gear, berserking, sometimes actually turning around and boosting twice, before spinning and using Raging Fist. Elvaan and Galka start at level 1 with the equal, highest STR. I'm not sure if one surpasses the other later on, but I have to imagine the Elvaan race makes his WS's a bit stronger than most.

[ValisOfValefor]

Your numbers are quite acceptable for your level. 260-300 is the normal.

It reallly just depends on your gear and luck.

The first monk i ever had to deal with at that level could either be a monster, or a complete wuss on his raging. i think he hit most the time for about 300ish never really got to see much more that that. The other times he would hit in the 200s.

One time he hit for 8 damage.

Alot more of the monks after that hit about what your hitting for with similar gear setups.

(And then again I had that one monk at level 46, who was merited in h2h, str, crit hit+, and a couple other things I can't remember. She had a p charm, 2 snipers. Now he hit between 380-450is and nevr saw her hit for less, she ate meat too, but dont expect to always hit like that)

[nanatsu]

Well I am using boost, berserk and focus to the best of my ability. Sometimes I try to keep at least one buff on at all times so they're not stacked all the time. I think I'm just going to try to get a couple of Woodsmans today and see if I can get away with just eating meat and see if that helps. Thanks for the responses.

[Amiraphe]

I think you're doing just fine. I try to have a nice balance of str, att, and acc on myself and I eat sushi---as an Elvaan, I still can miss Too Weak :(

One thing, at the Crawler's Nest, those crawlers do use a defense shield on themselves sometimes, so if it wasn't dispelled, all WS look a little sad.

But really, don't fret. Not every WS will land you 500+ everytime. Even at my level 63 and I'm very stacked gear-wise, I can whiff out a nice 150 damage and wanna die, LOL. Then the next time I can do 600+. Go figure. Just get what you like and can afford and have a good time.

[Jei]

your accuracy cap at around 80% I'm not too sure. So you can miss too weak no matter how much accuracy you have.

I just recently got Mnk to 33 and got my peacock charm. Once I got my raging fist I'm going to play around with gears and see how it works ^^ So far I think I'll be using charm +10 and woodsman +5 and rice dumbling +5 accuracy for raging fist. If that doesn't give me more than 6-7 hits consistantly I'm going to macro in my second woodsman and a life belt for this WS. That will give my +35 accuracy total. I think having *enough* accuracy to land acceptable hits is more important here. Once I have that accuracy I'll boost STR and ATTK on other available slots.

[Tirrock]

With multi-hit WS, you have to figure out what needs boosting. I get 14% TP off of it when all hits connect. (5.5 + 5.5 + 1 + 1 + 1). If I'm getting less than 11% TP per raging fists, I'd need more accuracy.

If I'm getting max TP (minus double attack kicking in) from the WS, but the damage is still bad... Then I need more STR for the WS.

If you're connecting all/most hits, have as much STR as you can, and your damage is still bad, it is very likely the monster you're fighting. MNK have a harder time fighting high ITs than most jobs.

At 66, when I fight high ITs (like those goblins in the southwestern part of bibiki), my dragon kick damage goes down to like 50 (seriously) to 400. Fight VT/low IT goblins and giraffes in the northwestern part of bibiki, my dragon kick damage was 300 to 650, not counting the dhamel using berserk.

Overcamping = sad monk

Edit:
Jei has a charm? Nice. D: I'm working on the BC for it now. I had enough seals for 13 orbs worth. I'm hoping to have the charm before I level SAM. O.kote + charm + STR/Crit merits is something I want to try on a level 34 exp party. >_>

[Jei]

yea I sold my warrior gears. Charm was 18-19M in the auction house but someone shouted and sold it 14M so I grab it @@;

I still have my ninja gear ready to keep trying the BC tho ^^v just have to remember to send my charm to mule before I do.

[Kenki]

I think natural accuracy cap at 95%. Your accuracy is reduced when you are fighting a higher level monster given everything else constant (mob agi, eva..etc). When you are fighting a lower level monster you accuracy is increased with your level given everything else constant - this can effectively raise your accuracy to near 100% (99%?)

About Raging Fists numbers, there are several factors at play. The 1st one would be accuracy, if you miss any punch you would have reduced damage. The 2nd factor is the base damage. Mnk's base damage is a function of H2H skill level and the +Dmg from the weapon. So higher +Dmg and H2H level - higher WS damage. 3rd, Atk is a factor in overall low/high end damage, low attack means low damage WS even if all your hits land. Finally, the stat modifier - I'm not so sure about this but it can be the difference between 200~300Dmg and 500~600Dmg given enough stat bonus.

Overall, Raging Fists damage can be seen as 6x your per fist damage plus the stat modifier bonus and TP bonus. If you are hitting at 50 damage per fist, you should expect a 100% accurate Raging Fists to land at 50x6 = 300~400 damage give or take depending on your stat modifier (and a random number).

[Dryhus]

If that doesn't give me more than 6-7 hits consistantly I'm going to macro in my second woodsman and a life belt for this WS.

Raging Fists with 100% accuracy is 5 hits.
If Double Attack procs, it's 6 hits.
If Kick Attacks proc, it's 7 hits.

Don't expect more than 6-7 hits consistently. You'll be lucky to get 6 hits 15% of the time. 7 hits, closer to 5% or less. More than 6-7 hits on Raging Fists? Impossible unless you can get Triple Attack to proc.

On topic, though, my average at 53 MNK is 200-400 damage, with my personal record being 684 on an IT mob.

[Kenki]

Raging Fists is 5+1 hits

Hand-to-Hand and Dual Wield adds 1 extra hit to any weapon skill. This extra hit is equivalent to the sub weapon and will add the extra TP generated from that weapon instead of 1%. So it's 5+5+1+1+1+1 for RF if you get 5TP per punch.

[Jei]

i was thinking about asuran fist @@; sorry

[Dryhus]

Raging Fists is 5+1 hits

Hand-to-Hand and Dual Wield adds 1 extra hit to any weapon skill. This extra hit is equivalent to the sub weapon and will add the extra TP generated from that weapon instead of 1%. So it's 5+5+1+1+1+1 for RF if you get 5TP per punch.

Rampage is 5 hits using a single axe. If you're DWing axes, you get the extra hit.

Conversely, hand-to-hand weapon skills can ONLY be used with a 2-hit H2H weapon equipped, and as such are a minimum of 2 hits. Combo is 3 hits. Dragon Kick is 2 hits. Asuran Fists is 8 hits. Raging Fists is 5 hits. Not 5+1. Just 5. Extra hits can come from Double Attack or Kick Attack, but not from hand-to-hand weapons.

Double Post Edited:
i was thinking about asuran fist @@; sorry

:)

[Kenki]

No, I believe it's one extra hit.

You can count the extra +5% TP from the other hand attack. Since the additional attacks only give +1% TP. If it were just 5 normal hit then you shouldn't be getting the additional +4.5~5% TP.

I do get some 17% TP return from Asuran Fists, mostly 16% (I get 9.5% TP from 2 hits). I don't have /War sub nor any other additional attack. I don't think kick attack can add hits to WS. I also get a 14% TP return after Combo in promy (lv30 cap); I have about 12% TP per round at the time - mostly stay at 12~13%.

[Dryhus]

No, I believe it's one extra hit.

You can count the extra +5% TP from the other hand attack. Since the additional attacks only give +1% TP. If it were just 5 normal hit then you shouldn't be getting the additional +4.5~5% TP.

I do get some 17% TP return from Asuran Fists, mostly 16% (I get 9.5% TP from 2 hits). I don't have /War sub nor any other additional attack. I don't think kick attack can add hits to WS. I also get a 14% TP return after Combo in promy (lv30 cap); I have about 12% TP per round at the time - mostly stay at 12~13%.

Don't multi-hit weapon skills give normal TP for the first round of attacks (in the case of H2H, the first 2 hits) and 1% TP for each hit thereafter? That puts an 8-hit Asuran Fists at around 16% with some 17% returns when DA and KA proc.

[Tirrock]

I've never heard of somebody exceeding 8 hits on asuran fists.

My TP on raging fists against EPs is pretty consistant. 14% TP. (I solo EPs with /WHM and VC on for tiny amounts of exp/guard skill.) I get 11% per melee round (5.5ish TP a punch) and 1% for each extra punch. Using TM hooks +2, raja's ring, and second to last level of martial arts (the level 61 version of the trait).
5.5 + 5.5 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 14%

Unless I managed to miss one hit every time I use raging fists...I'm very much inclined to disagree with raging fists being 6 hits.

[Minaku]

I'm pretty certain dryhus is right. H2H is not the same as DW. You can only do Raging Fists one way - with H2H. There is no reason for something that is called a "5-hit attack" to actually be 5+1 in every situation. My tp returns have always backed this up.

I am also quite certain Asuran cannot exceed 8 hits no matter what. Perhaps DA or kicks could fire on Asuran, but if so they'd only count if you missed a regular hit, and it's impossible to tell which is which from what info we're given. If you get 10 tp or less from 2 punches, you cannot exceed 16tp Asuran EVER. If you did, something else happened, like you got hit. Believe me, this has been argued to death in more established forums.

[Dryhus]

I am also quite certain Asuran cannot exceed 8 hits no matter what. Perhaps DA or kicks could fire on Asuran, but if so they'd only count if you missed a regular hit, and it's impossible to tell which is which from what info we're given. If you get 10 tp or less from 2 punches, you cannot exceed 16tp Asuran EVER. If you did, something else happened, like you got hit. Believe me, this has been argued to death in more established forums.

This is interesting information, and is definitely news to me. I guess Double Attack and Kick Attacks serve to make Asuran Fists damage more consistent, then, rather than more damaging. On a WS than can hit anywhere between 1 and 8 times depending on Accuracy, I'll take consistent damage any day.

Are there any other weapon skills that work this way? Can Hexastrike only land for 6 hits, neglecting a Dual Wield or Double Attack bonus? Does Rampage max out at 5 hits, contrary to what I've heard from WAR/NINs?

[Tirrock]

Everything I've heard has said the maximum number of hits on a weapon skill is eight. Nobody is really sure if double attack works with asuran fists or not, but it's assumed it does, but only if you miss.

The person that taught me most of what I know about melees (MNK in specific) told me that each weapon skill has a certain limit on how many times double attack can work on it. I haven't really seen any topics about this, but I haven't searched too hard either. She hasn't led me wrong yet. (Granted, she's also not a WAR.)

An eight hit hexa is possible. Dual Wield + Double attack. WHM/NIN with a brutal earring and/or food with +double attack. I don't know if you could get it with just /WAR though.

Rampage is 5 hits with one axe, right? Just subbing ninja and using a second axe would put it at six hits. I'd be very surprised if double attack didn't work with it.

[Dryhus]

Everything I've heard has said the maximum number of hits on a weapon skill is eight.

That sounds very SE-esque, now that you mention it that way. A nice round number, byte-wise.

[Lmnop]

phew! by the time I get to the bottom of the 2nd page, I forget all the stuff I wanted to comment on...

First and foremost, the issue at hand: I hate to say it but I think the acc rings are what'll help Nanatsu the most. Just a little bit of +acc here-and-there to let you focus on eating meat is the best thing you can do. Btw, look at the #s of the rest of your party. Double Thrust from a DRG should average under your RF numbers, if you're averaging 2-300 then a war/nin with dual axes is prolly doing 100-200. And the rare War/thf should be doing 250-350ish, I'd think. As is, RF is the best stand alone WS (I say stand alone because there are 2 WSs at this level that abuse SA to make big numbers) WS 'til... prolly right up to rampage/sidewinder. Maybe i'm overestimating it since I stopped Mnk @37? (RF is 41, I believe)

technically, RF isn't "an acc based" WS as someone said, WSs that are truely acc based are Dancing Edge, Asuran Fists, Swift Blade(I think), Sidewinder, Skewer, prolly a few others that I don't have. I just wanted to clarify. It is, indeed, dmg varies with tp.

As for the Tp conversation... this is something that's gone on and on and on. I really don't know which is true and which isn't, but something I wanted to note:
if it is indeed 5.5 + 5.5 + 1 + 1 + 1, then 11% tp would make some of the saddest looking RFs around. that would imply that not only did you only connect 2/5 swings, one of those swings was weaker than the rest.

The 2nd best RF (the best being all hits connect for 14%tp) would be to have 8.5% tp (missing only the 2nd 5.5% swing). Reason being: the extra offhand swing deals damage and gains tp just like a normal swing. It doesn't take into account tp% for extra damage, nor does it consider those dreaded Weapon Skill Modifiers.

No, offhand swing will not give +1% tp. Multi-hit WSs are figured easy enough. Just take it one step at a time -- 1st hit: full tp for normal swing. Extra hits: 1 tp each. Now if Dual Wield=true: add one normal swing with its damage and its tp gain, all as normal.

For the record: HtH does work the exact same as Dual Wield. All attacks are made +1. The problem is: did S-E already include this in the flavor text, knowing that all HtH skills automatically dual wield?

Rampage is 5 hits +1 if dual wielded. This makes sense because Rampage can often be 5 hits, so they're not about to say in flavor text of every WS in the game: "Fast blade: a 2 fold attack (or 3 if dual wielded)" ...too much work. They still haven't updated the description of banish to include it's defense-negating property, so why would they do something so tedius?

So now look at Mnk WSs.
-Shoulder Tackle gets an extra swing via offhand attack (no stunning property, no special mods to it's dmg).
-Combo is a 3-fold attack according to text. But is this 3 WS hits + normal hit? This would obviously lying since it should just say 4 hits, right? But if it truely is 3 hits, then it's still technically lying since you're only doing 2 WS hits.

So the only things that I still don't know the answers to: is Combo 3 hits or 4? is Raging Fists 5 hits or 6? If the game truely caps at 8 attacks (kracken club cap ftw), then Asuran Fists could easily be 8+1 swings, but the offhand swing always gets truncated off.

[Jei]

Now I've actually get to experience raging fist ^^ Back to original OP, 300 at 44 is nothing to be ashamed of. I pulled hate right of the PLD when I land do 250+ which I do it pretty consistantly xD

I just reached 50 last night. For the first time I had a very hard time landing multiple raging fist on beetles in garlaige. I was there a little too low I suppose (started PTing at 47) and from 47-49, eatching sushi is the only way I can hit 10+ TP consistantly, at a very gimped damaged (always less than 160 ;_; ) It got a lot better at level 50, I switched to meat mithkabob and still able to pull 14-15TP return from raging fist and doing upwards 450 damage.

[Dryhus]

For the record: HtH does work the exact same as Dual Wield. All attacks are made +1. The problem is: did S-E already include this in the flavor text, knowing that all HtH skills automatically dual wield?

As has been said before, it is quite similar to Dual Wield, but it does not work the exact same way.

Rampage can be used with a single axe, and with 100% Accuracy it will land for 5 hits. Dual Wield adds an extra hit to this.

Combo is 3 hits, as can be seen in the animation (punch, punch, kick) regardless of what the WS description says (I believe it does say 3 hits, but I forget). A typical 100% Accuracy return for this would be 12% TP, that being 5.5 + 5.5 + 1. It's not 5.5 + 1 plus a bonus 5.5 hit from your "offhand". The first swing can earn a 5.5% return, the second can earn a 5.5% return, and the third can earn a 1% return. If you hit,hit,miss, you would not get 6% TP, you would get 11% TP.

When you say the best return from Raging Fists is 14% and the 2nd-best is 8.5%....it sounds like you're implying that you only get the second 5.5% if you land ALL the hits. Again, it's untrue. You can get a return of 13%...12%...etc. Likewise, with Raging Fists, your first hit can earn you 5.5%, your second hit can earn you 5.5%, and the remaining 3 hits can earn you 1% each.

With Rampage or other multi-hit WSs enhanced by Dual Wield, I believe the extra hit from DW returns 1%. If a 5-hit Rampage returned 11% TP, then I believe DWing axes would have returned 12% and not 18%. This would be further prove that H2H doesn't give you a bonus hit from your "offhand", as it gives full TP. This would, of course, be because it's the TP from your normal attack round, plus 1% for each additional hit in the WS.

[Lmnop]

DW extra hits add normal tp, not one. Trust me on this, it's been discussed to death, somewhere around here I even demonstrated my foolproof method of determining the truth in this.

Additionally, that Dual wield hit is a normal swing, not a WS swing. This isn't so easy to test, but that's the general concensus.

When you say the best return from Raging Fists is 14% and the 2nd-best is 8.5%....it sounds like you're implying that you only get the second 5.5% if you land ALL the hits. Again, it's untrue. You can get a return of 13%...12%...etc. Likewise, with Raging Fists, your first hit can earn you 5.5%, your second hit can earn you 5.5%, and the remaining 3 hits can earn you 1% each.

I'm sorry you thought I implied that... I did not. Once again I'll reiterate that I don't know if RF is indeed 5 hits or 6, nor do I know typical tp returns. But I do know that if you miss the 2nd hit that gives normal tp return, that you missed the weakest of the swings in the WS (see above, about how I believe this, but really can't prove it).

[Tirrock]

I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that unlike normal dual wielding, hand to hand's offhand damage is part of the WS. Although it's really hard to tell. I can certainly tell the difference in damage from a 5%TP return dragon kick and an 11% (or 12% if double attack goes off) dragon kick.

Although, that could also be explained by random crits and such. I've had some real oddball dragon kicks for less than 100 damage on ITs without buffs on... Then on the next monster I could hit for 500-600 on dragon kick.

[Jei]

Since I switched to cross counter, I've gotten 15% as my max TP return with raging fist. It can also give me 13% 14% too. When I was using a faster weapon I would get only 14% max so I think it's the weapon's delay that makes that little difference there.

[Samuzuki]

Ive heard that raging fists is equaly STR and DEX based, so if you have little dex pumping that a bit may give you a little dmg.