Great Axe...?

[Zynk]

Ok I have 4 jobs at 75 THF/RNG/MNK/BRD here is the thing tho. I don't know if I should try an keep G.axe capped why I'm XPing or just stick to axe an not worry about G.axe til like 60 or something. It just sucks that I don't have a job I can skill it up on. I just can't make up my mind on what I should do. If anyone can help me here an give me some more input on what I should do thanks a whole lot.

[Murphie]

Well, you should really focus on keeping your GAXE skilled up with your axe, if for no other reason then that the weaponskills you get from it are far more useful in the low-to-mid levels than those of the Axe.

You really shouldn't have any trouble keeping both of them capped as you level WAR (if that is what you're doing).

[Feba]

My opinion, as I finished writing about an hour ago: http://therealtaru.blogspot.com/2006/06/just-go-my-way.html

[Murphie]

I don't understand why everything is quadruple spaced in your blog. :/ Anyway, I disagree.

GAXE weaponskills aren't necessarily just about doing damage. The Break WS's for instance, are about making the fights go faster for everyone, not just being the most damaging Party Member. From the dunes through Garlaige, I'd often rather my WAR bust out with a Shield Break when he gets TP rather than worrying about landing a Sturmwind every time.

Later on, there is definitely a lot of positive things about going Axe or Axe/Axe or whatever, but what works during one level range doesn't necessarily work during another.

[Feba]

I know that, but the point is, Axe/Axe works just as well as Gax.

Axe has benefits, Gax has benefits, as long as you aren't a noob with a sword (or a polearm, or a scythe, or a great sword, or...) , it doesn't matter.

[Murphie]

It just doesn't make any sense to me to not level both of your A rated weapons. Especially since if you keep them both on you at all times, there isn't any problem keeping them capped.

But that's me.

[Ellipses]

Parses without context aren't all that great a source for argument. Subjobs, equipment, food, etc.

I wouldn't refuse to party with a WAR who didn't have GAXE available or anything. But I'd also be a lot more likely to remember (in a good way) a WAR who had both capped and switched to the one that helped the party most.

[Murphie]

There is a reason why people say that WARs should use GAXE. It's not just because they like it better. It's because over the years it has been proven to be a smart choice to keep it leveled.

[Zynk]

So I should just stick to G.axe for the time being? I know my axe is capped an will be til the later levels from doing it on RNG. Thanks a lot for getting back to me pretty fast. By the way, my WAR is 45 right now if that helps at all.

[DakAttack]

It can be very difficult to keep two different weapons capped at the lower levels, and in the higher levels it's even more difficult to cap an uncapped weapon. If you use a charge from the Empress Band you wont learn your first WS until about level 5, rather than the usual level 3. In the dunes, as you can probably imagine, it 's tough capping your weapons with PLs rushing you through everything. With my Drk I'm having trouble keeping both GS and Scythe capped and I'm stil in Qufim.

I think it's worth it though. If you cap a weapon, and you have another weapon on you, ask your party if you can change and restructure the SC for it. You'll be all hell yea later when it comes time to unlock the quested WSs.

[Ellipses]

By the way, Rune Chopper would let you skill GAXE up on BRD to a point.

[Murphie]

It can be very difficult to keep two different weapons capped at the lower levels, and in the higher levels it's even more difficult to cap an uncapped weapon. If you use a charge from the Empress Band you wont learn your first WS until about level 5, rather than the usual level 3. In the dunes, as you can probably imagine, it 's tough capping your weapons with PLs rushing you through everything. With my Drk I'm having trouble keeping both GS and Scythe capped and I'm stil in Qufim.

I think it's worth it though. If you cap a weapon, and you have another weapon on you, ask your party if you can change and restructure the SC for it. You'll be all hell yea later when it comes time to unlock the quested WSs.

Really? I've seriously never had any trouble keeping both capped. Axe generally caps faster, but I've never had one lag behind by more than two or three points.

Then again, I don't generally spend too much time in PL parties.

I can see how it would be hard to keep two high delay weapons from capping. Especially if you don't connect on every swing. You definitely have my condolences there. To (kind of) solve that problem on DRK, I took my WAR out and leveled Great Sword as far as I could solo, so I can just focus on Scythe while leveling DRK for a while. When it finally uncaps though, I'll probably have some trouble.

OP: If you already have axe capped for quite a while, then there's really no reason not to at least try to get GAXE up to speed. But keep both on you at all times.^^

Another thing - just because you're subbing NIN, doesn't mean you have to use dual axes. Especially early on.

[DakAttack]

Really?
Another thing - just because you're subbing NIN, doesn't mean you have to use dual axes. Especially early on.

Promyvions are an example where great axes are just stronger than dual wield axes. At this point, dual wielding swords would be better, because the strongest axe at level thirty are picks if I remember correctly. Picks are slow, and your WSs aren't exactly all too powerful. Great axes are fairly strong and remain at the standard speed while providing you with Shield Break and Sturmwind.

[Aeolus]

Bard doesnt have GA skill so it won't skill up. Like elemental staves on my Thf, nothing happened.

[Murphie]

Promyvions are an example where great axes are just stronger than dual wield axes. At this point, dual wielding swords would be better, because the strongest axe at level thirty are picks if I remember correctly. Picks are slow, and your WSs aren't exactly all too powerful. Great axes are fairly strong and remain at the standard speed while providing you with Shield Break and Sturmwind.

Dual Centurians are a nice option in there, but yeah, GAXE is pretty nifty.

[Ellipses]

Bard doesnt have GA skill so it won't skill up. Like elemental staves on my Thf, nothing happened.
Oh yeah. Nevermind. :o

[Armando]

By the way, Rune Chopper would let you skill GAXE up on BRD to a point.Unfortunately, since BRD doesn't have a G.Axe skill, that's not possible. However, he COULD pre-level Axe on his RNG (if he hasn't already) so that he can use Great Axe freely without worrying about Axe falling behind.

My opinion is, yes, you should use Great Axe whenever possible. Great Axe will beat Axe WS in raw power (particularly when Sturmwind comes around, although Shield Break can put up numbers roughly equal to a non-dual wielded Raging Axe) and the Breaks are just TOO good.

Shield Break gives the mob -40 resistance, and Armor Break gives it -25% Defense. Breaks normally last 1:30 minutes, twice as long if the mob is weak to its element, and will pretty much fail to stick (the effect, not the damage; the damage is still purely physical) if the enemy is resistant to its element. Shield Break is ice-based (evasion is attributed to wind, Shield Break lowers evasion, ice beats wind) and Armor Break is wind-based (same logic.)

Also note that Shield Break overwrites Evasion Up moves (Rhino Guard, etc.) but is also overwritted by them; Armor Break overwrites Defense Up moves, but is also overwritten by them. You generally want to avoid fighting mobs that can do this, since mobs can spam their TP moves much faster than you. Also note that Armor Break and Acid Bolts technically give the same effect (though Acid Bolts are weaker) and as such they don't stack.

Normally you'd want to eat meat and use Shield Break, and if possible also hit the mob with an Acid Bolt after Shield Break. If the mob is strong to ice (not likely,) or can overwrite Evasion Up (Beetles, I forget what else,) spamming Armor Break + Sushi is also an option post-33. Sushi won't give you as big a bonus to accuracy as Shield Break, but by 33 it should give about 17-19 Accuracy. Just don't use Armor Break on Crabs and Crawlers or you'll have it overwritten by Scissor Guard or Cocoon.

Or you can simply Sturmwind stuff to death. But I prefer Breaks if there's two melees doing Skillchains already (or you could even close Fusion with the Breaks.)



Promyvions are an example where great axes are just stronger than dual wield axes. At this point, dual wielding swords would be better, because the strongest axe at level thirty are picks if I remember correctly. Picks are slow, and your WSs aren't exactly all too powerful. Great axes are fairly strong and remain at the standard speed while providing you with Shield Break and Sturmwind.Oh man, you have no idea how badly Shield Break helped us in Promyvion when we got aggro from ITs in the 3rd floor. Those bastards are hard to hit. We'd kill them at a snail's pace, but as soon as you Shield Break one (pray it's not an Ice or Fire one, though) it becomes so much easier to kill it. It can mean the difference between living or dying due to the mages running out of MP from the fight lasting too long.

[Feba]

Parses without context aren't all that great a source for argument. Subjobs, equipment, food, etc.


I'm outdamaging everyone. Good, bad, galka, poorly equipped, people I envy, i'm outdamaging them. Why does it matter if it's not in perfect context if i'm more than pulling my weight? PTs are a group effort, but when i'm the one doing the most, how can I be doing something wrong?


Maybe i'd do a few more, maybe a few less, in the end, the point is, as long as you're using one of them, and you aren't a moron, you'll do fine.

[Murphie]

Except that you're limiting yourself in the end by avoiding one of your A skills just because you don't like it.

[Feba]

How am I limiting myself by not leveling a weapon which I won't use?

[Ziero]

I outdmged everyone I pt'd with using a Gaxe instead of dual axes myself. I've never to this point have been out dmged by a dual axe wielding War. Hell I even semi staticed with a War/thf while I was war/nin to make frag on crawlers in the later 30s early 40s and I was jealous of his dmg. We had the same gear, were the same race and were both similarly skilled. The only difference between us is I had nin and axe skill lvled and he didn't.

My average Sturm was 300ish with no MS, my highest was 500ish without MS either. I never liked dual axes, still don't at 52, because the WS aren't that great. Sadly however the last two pts I was in asked me to sub nin and DW so my axe skill is falling behind. Which sucks to me cause I like doing up to 170 dmg with a normal, unbuffed, non crit swing. =(


My advice, if your axe is capped for a long time, stick to Gaxe. It's MUCH harder to lvl up Gaxe the axe because you can't dual weild Gaxes.

[Murphie]

Because at some point your party may need you to use it, and you won't have it avaialble. It's like a mage who doesn't bother to get all of his useful spells. GAXE has been proven to be a very useful item time and time again, and while you certainly are free to not level it, you're ultimately limiting both yourself and your party.

[Ziero]

Also, no offense or anything but your 'parse every three lvls or so' totally screws up your results. By parsing once every three lvls you miss a lot of info. And by basing your data on many unknown variables, it's iffy at best. Gaxe has been proven to be better then axe time and time again, a 516 MS'd WS isn't that impressive nor is a 300 normal WS. And as a warrior, you are built for versatility, /nin is not the end all be all of subs.

[Feba]

Ugh, apperently you don't get it.

I will NOT be using GAX in the future, thus not leveling GAX isn't limiting myself AT ALL.
When I DO decide to use GAX, I will have nothing better to do than skill it up.


I'm not saying Axe>GAX, or that GAX is useless, i'm saying Axe works, and do what's fun as long as it's not fucking stupid.

[Murphie]

Perhaps we'd have an easier time "getting it" if you had explained yourself better. Your blog entry says nothing about how you're just not using GAXE right now. It says that you don't like it, and see no reason to level it at all.

You're right. Axe does work. But like everything, it's situational.

Also, while you may not intend to level GAXE, it's possible that a party may ask you to do so at some point. If I invited a WAR to use a GAXE and they hadn't bothered to level it, I'd just find someone else to fill that slot.

[Feba]

By parse every three levels or so, I mean look through the results, actually at the details. I run parser on most every fight.a 516 MS'd WS isn't that impressive nor is a 300 normal WS. I wasn't bragging about the 516, that was solo anyway, and 300 isn't bad considering it's more than what i've seen out of other melees, and with faster TP gain. Normally my WS do about the same as everyone else.

Double Post Edited:
I'm not saying I don't see a REASON to level it, i'm saying I don't find the reason good enough to warrant the time money and effort to use GAX, get it releveled, and maintain that, when I don't even like the weapon.

[Ellipses]

I'm outdamaging everyone. Good, bad, galka, poorly equipped, people I envy, i'm outdamaging them. Why does it matter if it's not in perfect context if i'm more than pulling my weight? PTs are a group effort, but when i'm the one doing the most, how can I be doing something wrong?

Maybe i'd do a few more, maybe a few less, in the end, the point is, as long as you're using one of them, and you aren't a moron, you'll do fine.
Fair enough, and I'll agree. Good is good enough. It was just one of those things where I probably read too much into it, and took the implication that a greataxe warrior wouldn't be able to outdamage you. Rereading, it doesn't seem you're trying to imply that, so nevermind.

[Feba]

yeah, i'm not saying I can't be outDD'd, just that I haven't been.


I'm sure someone who puts some thought in to their equipment and setup will be able to keep up with me(or outdo me), instead of people who just mix and match anything they find. (Especially with white borders. hi ige)


And i'm not saying bad EQ. I'm saying EQ people bought so they wouldn't call them gimp.

[Ziero]

Ok, the OP wasn't asking if YOU liked the weapon, he was askin if it was worth lvling it. And despite what you think, it is. From lvls 5-37 Gaxe is the superior weapon for warriors and not once will an axe set up be better, not considering SCing needs. And if you decide to take it higher, Gaxe still performs better then Axes until 55 when you get Rampage. Though at 43 dual axes becomes much stronger then at the lower lvls with CC+2 axes and then vikings at 48.

To the OP, seeing as you already have Axe capped from Rng, stick to Gaxe as much as possible. Use axes when asked, but go War/thf when you can for better DD output. Just don't try to tank with /thf sub, it doesn't work too well. =(

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I think the best reason for the OP to have GAxe leveled is that he already has THF and MNK ready as subs. For /THF and /MNK, GAxe is probably better than Axe 95% of the time. If the OP only had /NIN leveled as a sub, then I could see leveling GAxe as being a waste of time.

[Raydeus]

OP:

Since you already have Axe covered I think you should stick with G. Axe, at least until you get Rampage as a WAR (55). Before that G. Axe seems better, plus it wont hurt you to have it leveled.

[UnnamedGalka]

I think it's time to leave him be. He's been told about the importance of a WAR keeping both Axe and Great Axe skilled, and he's not been convinced.

Some people just have to learn the hard way.

[Ziero]

Nobody's telling Feba he *has* to lvl Gaxe. All that was said is that for much of the game, especially in the low lvls, it's a better weapon. But the OP asked if he should lvl his Gaxe now and for the most part, people said he should.

[Omni]

This is almost comical. War is the new debate job of this era.

anyhow, you should keep them leveled, but not for the sake of using it in a pt if they need it but for the sake of saving yourself the hours of dreaded 2h weapon skill up when you're trying to get steel cyclone... 2h weapon skillup is one of the most annoying things to do.

gaxe and axe are both great for war. you cant go wrong with a A rated weapon on any job. nowadays... people do look for axe more often than gaxe. in tp burn pts, gaxe will lose out to axe. but, i have to say taht fuidama steel cyclone is one of the craziest ws ive seen used in an XP situation. it can totally make spinslash look dismal.

[Feba]

Ok, the OP wasn't asking if YOU liked the weapon, he was askin if it was worth lvling it.


And for me, it isn't worth leveling. If i'm outparsed by WAR with around my eq and sub, using a great axe, i'll level it.

[Armando]

And for me, it isn't worth leveling. If i'm outparsed by WAR with around my eq and sub, using a great axe, i'll level it.You're not going to find many Great Axe-wielding WAR/NINs. By that logic, a low level DRK could easily convince himself that Great Sword and Scythe are better than Great Axe, too.

[Feba]

I mean that as in "Not WAR/THF spamming SAWS"

Double Post Edited:
Oh, and before someone says "Well if WAR/THF will outdamage you, why don't play that?"; I need utsusemi because:

1- Most tanks at this level suck
2- Some PTs need me to subtank
3- Some PTs need me to main tank (and before you go talking about /MNK, there is usually another NIN or /NIN in the PT to help. )

[Goldesper]

When I leveled WAR to 35 I used GAX from 12 onward. I was *never* outdamaged by anyone. There were a few who were close, a THF who had Maxed out Sword, DEX, STR, Critical Hit merits for instance. Apart from him, I could do as much as a Non-Resisted MB with each of my Criticals. 85% ACC too. When I got 30 and subbed THF, I could do 300ish Strumwinds to horribly overhunted Dhalmel.

But I'm not being biased in any: way, shape, or form. =P

[Murphie]

When I leveled WAR to 35 I used GAX from 12 onward. I was *never* outdamaged by anyone. There were a few who were close, a THF who had Maxed out Sword, DEX, STR, Critical Hit merits for instance. Apart from him, I could do as much as a Non-Resisted MB with each of my Criticals. 85% ACC too. When I got 30 and subbed THF, I could do 300ish Strumwinds to horribly overhunted Dhalmel.

But I'm not being biased in any: way, shape, or form. =P

I honestly can't imagine an Axe WAR outdamaging a GAXE war if similarly equipped. Your experience with Great Axes has been mine as well.^^

[lionx]

At lower levels, i usually will pick the GAxe weilding WAR over an Axe one. Sturmwind and Breaks are just that good. @_@ Axe is pretty weaksauce for the most part until Rampage IMO anyway. On that note, WAR/NIN dont HAVE to dual wield, before the Haste upgrade, the only real benefit of /NIN is Utsusemi, and you dont need to wield two axes to use it. I will still use GAxe unless i am doing some Axe WS for a skillchain as /NIN.

[Murphie]

At lower levels, i usually will pick the GAxe weilding WAR over an Axe one. Sturmwind and Breaks are just that good. @_@ Axe is pretty weaksauce for the most part until Rampage IMO anyway. On that note, WAR/NIN dont HAVE to dual wield, before the Haste upgrade, the only real benefit of /NIN is Utsusemi, and you dont need to wield two axes to use it. I will still use GAxe unless i am doing some Axe WS for a skillchain as /NIN.

I have to finish leveling my WAR from 30-37 (might go to 40 though), and I'll have all three subs available. If they ask me to sub NIN, I definitely will, but I won't be dual weilding if I can help it.

Not that I won't keep my axe skilled, of course.

[Feba]

Actually, even DW1 adds some haste. According to Amando in the thread: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ninja/57055-dual.weild.mojo.html ,it adds 10%.

I'd beleive him, since he really seems to know what he's talking about.

[lionx]

And from him i also noticed a reduced TP gain one time we were doing stuff together in Altepa and he was subbing NIN. You might swing faster, but the TP is also reduced per swing. I aint as math-worthy as him, but i believe he actually gained more TP single-wielding that day.

[ValisOfValefor]

"You can't call a Great Axe swing slow and then pretend double axes aren't slow. The typical great axe has 504 Delay, whereas the typical Axe has 276; 276 * 2 * 0.90 = 496 total Delay. 8 Delay is a laughable difference, less than 1/6th of a second. Axes don't start coming with more than half of a Great Axe's DMG until C.C. Axes, either. In short, Great Axe is better pre-48 in most situations, regardless of the sub, so a WAR/NIN may as well use it."

Heres a quote from Armando from the other thread (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/warrior/57657-war.mnk.im.stuck._._-3.html)

You get an amazing 8 delay difference and since the game favors high delay weapons now.

To The OP.

In fact it is better to level the great axe early. It levels pretty slowly, and the later you wait the longer it's going to take.

To an other anonymous person in this thread

And frankly before you go around claiming that you never get outdamged when you parse every 3 levels, put up your levels, your equipment, And your party setups. What buffs you had on ect. And if you "can" posts some absolute posts to your claim.

And besides, if those Gaxe who never have never outdamaged you. Are most likely using breaks, making it so that your raging axes can hit so consistantly. -40 evasion when unresisted is alot.

Other people in this thread have been trying to help people instead of trying to put the same sorry misinformation over and over again, that has lead has lead to the saturation of one single sub. And has gotten to the point were other classes that cannot utilize that sub, are left in the dust and are continually whinned at for not having 3 shadows and two weapons.

In fact its gotten so bad that my brother whos a level 57 drk got whinned at by a mage the other day that he didnt have a ninja sub, so he couldnt be the sata partner for a tank because he would take *damage*

Ok im done ranting, but im just tired of this misinformation being spread. /nin has uses, and post 50 "can" do more damage. But War is supposed to be the jack of all trades when it comes subs, but now its a one trick pony, with duel axes, and rampage.

(And to everyone else im sorry that my reply got so off topic, i would have liked to hear others intellegent opinions, but it got derailed due to the same sorry song.)

[Goldesper]

And frankly before you go around claiming that you never get outdamged when you parse every 3 levels, put up your levels, your equipment, And your party setups. What buffs you had on ect. And if you "can" posts some absolute posts to your claim.

Can't provide solid evidence, other than it was Valkrum DUnes, Qufim Island, Yuhtunga Jungle, and Yhoater Jungle :lipseal:

Just the normal noob setups (IE. WAR/WHM w/ Sword, some WAR/MNK with THF, PLD, NINs, etc.) Just random setups. (No BRDs either.) The only "facts" I can give you were that:

From 25-29 WAR/MNK Mostly tanking~
I hit from around 30 at a minimum. (w/o berserk)
65 at a maximum. (w/o berserk)
40 minimum (w/ berserk)
85 maximum (w/ berserk)
Criticals from 70-100 (w/o berserk)
Criticals from 80-140 (w/ berserk)
Counters were 90-100.
Strumwinds for 100-300. (@100% TP)
300% TP Strumwind for 396. (Double Attack Critical?)
I'm a Taru.
I was eating Rice Dumpling.
I have 2 Critical Hit Merits.

[ValisOfValefor]

Actually this is the sort of stuff i was looking for, even if you just say where it was how much your hitting for, and some of the benifits then yes il believe anyone. The person who it was directed at however has yet to post his level. (even though im guessing somewhere between the dunes, and crawlers nest)

I myself am a huge advocate of the great axe because I love to see that huge heavy axe go flying around, and smacking the enemy upside its head, doing great damage, and having useful debuffs (i.e. all the breaks if unresisted are some of the best debuffs in the game in my own opinion, after those breaks land the battle aint gonna last much longer if the enemy has -40 evasion or -25% defense)

Its so great when people use a great axe, it kinda makes me wanna cry :cry: (jk)

Anywho yesterday I finally got into a party, where there was a war/nin who used a great axe and kept it capped before axe. It was a sight to behold :handsdown

(I think the last great axe warrior I saw besides him, was in the dunes, thats quite sad)

[Feba]

My level isn't exactly hard to find, if you look to the left. Or on my wikipedia page in my sig. Although it has gone up by 4 since the time I made my last post, thanks to a good PT in Behemoth's Dominion. And yes, I realize i'm not 60+, which is the point, i'm actually using an axe before 50/52/55, and doing well with it. I tried to parser a PT(Which took me from 34->37) earlier, but at one point when I was trying to load chatlogs, it just crashed, and I decided that it wasn't worth it.

Until it crashed, I was neck and neck with the THF. The PT setup was NIN WAR THF BRD RDM COR, the COR was subbing WHM, and the NIN was busy with enfeebling ninjutsu, so the THF and I were doing most of the damage. The THF would SATA whoever didn't have hate at the time. The NIN kept hate very well with his enfeebles, even to the point where he could pull it off me after SATA+Provoke+Warcry

And frankly before you go around claiming that you never get outdamged when you parse every 3 levels, put up your levels, your equipment, And your party setups. What buffs you had on ect. And if you "can" posts some absolute posts to your claim.What was that last sentance supposed to be? I'm confused.

Anyway, if you read the thread, you'd see I parse more than every 3 levels, but I suppose you don't need to.

Right now, my EQ is as follows:

Mithril Axe [There were no +1 on AH]
Mithril Axe [above]
Power Bow [mostly for soloing, I haven't had to pull yet]
Bolts [leep, Blind, Bloody. I would have acid bolts if I could hit the broad side of a dhalmel with 'em]
Emperor Hairpin [Belongs to a friend]
Spike Necklace
Beetle Earring +1
Beetle Earring +1
Centurion's Mail [Kampf was too pricey, and I don't see anything better than this until 40]
Whateverthosesandorianscallem [I was hurting for ACC when I got them, they're helping]
STR+3 Ring
Venerer Ring [Again, ACC helps a lot]
Wolf Mantle+1
Warrior's Belt+1
Kampf Legs [I could go for bastokan subligar, but A; hate subligars, and B; help when I have hate]
Leaping Boots [from the same friend who let me borrow his Emp. Pin]

Until about 32, I tried different things, mostly mithkabobs and meat jerky. Eating Dhalmel Pies now.

Generally, my swings do 20-40 damage each, depending on how high over me the mob is.
I have 70-80% Accuracy on high VT/low IT, last I checked (Like I said, Parser crashed)
Criticals do 70-100 damage each, typically around 80
Raging Axe typically hits for 80 with no buffs, 30 with defender (when i'm pulling too much hate, I put it on so a BRD friend doesn't yell at me >_>), 100 with Serk, 190+ when it crits. Occasional 250, i'm assuming on double crits.
Tarutaru, mostly dualtanking or subtanking.
And besides, if those Gaxe who never have never outdamaged you. Are most likely using breaks, making it so that your raging axes can hit so consistantly. -40 evasion when unresisted is alot.

nope, i'm talking about Sturmwind spammers. If you're enfeebling/buffing, I don't really count your damage (unless it's like guillotine silence, heheh)


Right now, i've noticed my ACC is about 5% less than most people I PT with using a GAX. I'm wondering if they were wearing DEX rings (Although the pin and boots provide as much or more than the rings), or if it was their food (but i'm pretty sure most of them were eating meat, too).


Either way, like I said, i'm more than pulling my weight, and until I have to have GAX to keep up, i'm doing more than fine with axe.

[Lmnop]

But War is supposed to be the jack of all trades when it comes subs, but now its a one trick pony, with duel axes, and rampage.

This is really the core of all anti-/nin sentiments. I spent a long time to level the number of SJs I have ready for party use (with only 10ish hours online/week at that) just to end up always /nin. The worst part is that it's usually my choice. I take a look-see at the party list and see "hmm, this party would have to be really good for me to be able to survive as /sam. I should stick with /nin." and then there's lazyness: "eeeck, I don't feel like setting up SA and TA macros, I'ma just /nin." That one I'm very particularly ashamed of myself for.

At the end of the day though... I think that if a Warrior makes it to 75 w/out greataxe leveled at least up to level 70, you're a bad warrior. I seem to be one of very few warriors on my server who play it because I enjoy all the things it's capable of, not just "OMFG MERITS!"

It's not a matter of whether or not it works, I guess it's just an honor issue or something. I'd appreciate it if you honored my job.

[Armando]

This is actually very simple. Feba knows what he's doing, knows how to pick his equipment and food, knows how to use his abilities, and in short plays better than most/all people he's partied with so far. The fact that he's yet to be outparsed is not solid proof that Great Axe doesn't perform better; it's simply proof that Feba knows what he's doing.

You know what? I, levelling THF/RNG in Qufim, have outparsed THF/NINs of equal level. In fact, I don't think I got outparsed in Qufim. And you know what? I was single-wielding a dagger and using Shadowstitch on crabs. This is NOT definitive proof that Dagger > other weapons at those levels when it comes to THF. I believe daggers are very underrated in the early 20's and can put up some good numbers, but regardless, me parsing higher only proves that when used correctly, daggers can put up good numbers; it doesn't prove that I would've performed worse with other weapons.

Feba, if other WAR/NINs with dual axes don't outparse you, then a Great Axe user probably won't outparse you anyways. If you want to use dual axes, that's your decision. My only gripe is that you can't say Great Axe isn't worth it on the grounds that you haven't been outparsed. If a Sword/Sword user or a Great Sword user happened to outparse you, would you then think that those weapons are better? If you used a Scythe and outparsed an axe-axe WAR/NIN, would you consider that solid proof to claim Scythe performs better? It's not.

You might even make it all the way to 55 and not be outparsed by a Great Axe WAR. The only real way you can know how good Great Axes are is using one yourself. The reason I sustain that Great Axes are a better choice can be shown with numbers.

Level 20:
Battleaxe:
DMG: 20 | Delay: 276 | DMG/sec: 4.3478 |
Dual Wielded Battle Axe:
DMG: 20 | Delay: 248 | DMG/sec: 4.8387 | Damage/minute: 290.322
Neckchopper:
DMG: 39 | Delay: 489 | DMG/sec: 4.7853 | Damage/minute: 287.118 | Accuracy +5

Rusty Pick isn't worth mentioning because it has a worse DMG/Delay ratio compared to Battleaxe. Platoon Axe is the same as Battleaxe with 1 less DMG. WAR can't use Tomahawks, so the next upgrade are Tigerhunters.

Level 26:
Tigerhunter:
DMG: 22 | Delay: 276 | DMG/sec: 4.7826
Dual Wielded Tigerhunter:
DMG: 22 | Delay: 248 | DMG/sec: 5.3226 | Damage/minute: 319.356
Plantbane:
DMG: 43 | Delay: 507 | DMG/sec: 5.0888 | Damage/minute: 305.328 | Additional Effect vs Plantoids: Fire Damage

Level 28:
Military Pick (THE GOD AXE):
DMG: 24 | Delay: 260 | DMG/sec: 5.5385 | Accuracy +1
Dual Wielded Military Pick:
DMG: 24 | Delay: 234 | DMG/sec: 6.1538 | Damage/minute: 369.228 | Accuracy +1 (*2)
Military Axe:
DMG: 46 | Delay: 474 | DMG/sec: 5.8228 | Damage/minute: 349.368

Dual Axes and Great Axes are very close together in DMG/Delay with the exception of Military Pick. However, Military Pick is expensive and somewhat rare. I doubt you'd find someone using two of them. If you ARE using two Military Picks, congratulations. I can only imagine how much fun that must be. If you're not...this is the part where Great Axe pulls ahead: WS. We'll assume the WAR has a total of 45 STR at this level, PDIF is 1.0 as usual. fSTR is assumed to be 0.

Raging Axe:
fTP @100 TP: 1.00 | Modifier: 30% STR | Hits: 2 (+1)

Raging Axe w/ Dual Wielded Tigerhunter:
[(22 + (45 * 0.30)) * 1.0 * 1.0] * 3 = 105 damage + 50% Skillchain damage = 157

Sturmwind:
fTP @100 TP: 1.00 | Modifier: 30% STR | Hits: 2

Sturmwind w/ Military Axe:
[(46 + (45 * 0.30)) * 1.0 * 1.0] * 2 = 118 damage + 50% Skillchain damage = 177

Now let's consider total damage:

Dual Wielded Tigerhunter:
6.6 TP per hit
Requires 13 hits post-WS to acquire 100 TP (7 Attack rounds)
Time required: 57.87 secs
Damage done in 7 attack rounds: 308
WS damage: 105
Total: 413
Total damage/second: 413/57.87 = 7.1367

Military Axe:
12.7 TP per hit
Requires 7 hits post-WS to acquire 100 TP (7 hits)
Time required: 55.3 secs
Damage done in 7 attacks: 322
WS damage: 118
Total: 440
Total damage/second: 440/55.3 = 7.9566

From a purely mathematical point of view, Great Axe will at the very least keep up with (in this example, exceed) Dual Axes. However, like I stated earlier, I value Shield Break/Armor Break's effect far more than I value raw damage. Also, in order for Axes to keep up at all, they MUST be Dual Wielded. Great Axes will perform great with any sub, and will put Axes to shame with /THF and /MNK (and /DRG.) Thus, not having Great Axe available makes you less versatile. Let's face it - pickup parties won't ask you for Shield Break any more than they'll bother trying to think of a Skillchain that isn't Distortion (heaven forbid!) That doesn't mean they know what's best.

In conclusion, I'm not going to give Feba a hard time for not using Great Axes. It's his decision, he seems to be performing well regardless, and he understands the consequences of not having it levelled. However, I hope that this post explains why so many of us value Great Axe so much.

P.S. I hear Twicer blows everything out of the water. 4-hit Sturmwinds must be absurd.

[ValisOfValefor]

Im sorry if that statement came off as if i was dishonoring your job, i was actually just making a generalization of the fact, i haven't had /mnk or /thf wars in a party since level 20 on my paladin. The parties usually go like this

here was a party in the yhoator jungle all level 29

a dd leaves, and we scout out for a new one.

>Party leader-So what do we want.
I search and see a war/thf
>Me-Hey theres a war/thf lfg, why dont we invite him, there awesome dd
bluntly stated response of party- gimp
>Me-Well theres a couple war/mnk up why not one of them
once again-gimp
>Me-What about a dra...
interruption-gimp
>random person-how bout we wait for a war/nin ^^
>parties response-sure, why dont we ask those other wars see if they have /nin
>me-...
turned out that they all were newer players who didn't have a class to 30 yet.
>party leader-well guess we can get the /thf... wait a /nin popped yay.

i guess it's just been in my bad experience that i get completly biased parties.

I mean yes that remark i made was kind f rude but dont take it personally (i was alittle bit moody last night from some of my friends drinking till they were completly plastered, and they called me and asked if i could drag them home)

I love warrior as a job, i just dont love what it's been turned into by a good portion of vanadiel.

And everytime i go back and try and get war past 30 it turns into me going /mnk and in my search comment i also say that i have /thf a nearly capped great axe, a military axe, and the full kampf set.

After 5 hours of seeking for 3 days i finally got a party. I got there and this happend

Party leader-<disband> <goodbye>

I was like, ok wtf. I spent money on a airship ticket, a chocobo, my food, and get out here as fast as possible, though my experience wont be quiet as good as garlaige, and you disband on me. And it just keeps happening, i mean i need war to 37 soon.

Im so sick of it, i spent a month farming for my kampf set, and 3 weeks for my military axe. When i finally got all of that nice equipment the party invites stopped comming at level 30. I went back and leveled thief to 18 (which took about a month because of 10-15). Nothing still. So im about at the point when I gain up some more gil (after i buy all the necessities for 50 for my paladin), im going to go back and level nin (to 18), and bst (for the axe skill) so i can just get it to 37 finally.

Only problem is i never did like bounce tanking at all ><

I am truely sorry for that post, I shouldnt have even said anything

[Spinnthrift]

Following up what Armando has written...

I have Military Picks (and the rest). I didn't use them over a Great Axe for one reason.

And this is it:

I honestly don't care if the Drk, War, Drg, Sam, Mnk outparses me by 5% or 10% if my Shield Breaks have helped them do so. My e-penis isn't so in need of being buffered that I have to go for the ZOMG damage every time. If my actions can make the party do more than they did before - and exp better for it, or mission better for it, or quest better for it...

I'll do it, gladly.. and again and not worry that someone might dare outdamage me.

Now... if I'm being outparsed by 20% and not hitting anything... I'll rethink my options, but - I don't feel threatened by someone outparsing me, if I'm doing my job right. And as a G. Axe Warrior when it comes to pass - that's often more helping the party rather than helping myself.

- Saeriel.

[XaviarCraig]

I might be old fashion, but I was always told a "GOOD" Warrior will:

"... always have Axe, Great Axe, Sword, Great sword, Spear, Scythe, Club, Staff, Archery, and Marksmenship ALL leveled to atleast 5 job levels behind cap. He/She should also have /THF, /MNK, /WHM, /RDM, /NIN, /DRG, /PLD, /DRK, /RNG, /SAM, /BRD all ready to used as subjobs..."

furthermore:

" ... they will use which ever combo of weapon and subjob that helps the party the most, aswell as accept ANY role remotely possible to forefill. If one cannot do this, they are a failure as a warrior."

I honestly cant do all of that yet, so I wont play warrior until I can.

Just my 2 gill.

EDIT: Forgot this part of the quote:

"... A True warrior doesnt care about being the star of the party, but helping forfill the role he/she was given as best they can according to their ability and equipment avaible..."

[Zynk]

Well to the ppl that have gave me info thanks a lot. I'm just going to keep G.axe capped. An use it at all times til the PT needs me to go to axe.

[TenchiHawkwing]

My level isn't exactly hard to find, if you look to the left. Or on my wikipedia page in my sig.

The NIN kept hate very well with his enfeebles, even to the point where he could pull it off me after SATA+Provoke+Warcry


(Like I said, Parser crashed)
Criticals do 70-100 damage each, typically around 80
Raging Axe typically hits for 80

Right now, i've noticed my ACC is about 5% less than most people I PT with using a GAX. I'm wondering if they were wearing DEX rings (Although the pin and boots provide as much or more than the rings), or if it was their food (but i'm pretty sure most of them were eating meat, too).


Either way, like I said, i'm more than pulling my weight, and until I have to have GAX to keep up, i'm doing more than fine with axe.

Paradox?

(Read very closely people)

[ValisOfValefor]

"Paradox?

(Read very closely people)"

Very Nice Tenchi, when i actually went back and reread these statements yeah, ill collaborate more alittle bit latter, i got to go do some testing.

(claps his hands at Tenchi)

[Feba]

Paradox?

(Read very closely people)Hm? You think it's odd that Raging Axe does around the same as a Critical?

[Stromgarde]

WAR/DRG with a greataxe of an appropriate level will ruin an axe user in terms of damage between 20 to 30. Oftentimes at low level the haste through dual wield is completely negligable due to short fights. After 30 /thief becomes another viable alternative. However, at 30 there is an utter dearth of good axes that aren't crazy expensive. Hence why you see many, if not most war/nins in Promyvion with centureon swords. Before 40 (dual combat casters) it's very difficult to make any sort of case for /NIN with axes or swords. Greataxe is simply better if you're going for damage and not 'helping' the rest of the party with breaks, which axes don't even have the option of doing.

[Feba]

oh wow, I completly missed some of these posts... stupid PC lagging...


Armando: Are you a math teacher? That aside, thanks for bringing some numbers into this to help show my point. Yes, I realize that S.Break takes 40EVA, but people at this level only see damage, and want Sturmwind anyway, which negates the point.

Valis: Nah, I understand your point, i'd probably be a bit bitter too if I thought someone was just leveling this job for the cookie cutter.

Spinnthrift: Like I said above to armando; plus consider the fact that i'm sub or dual tanking. To most PTs, the ability to have a member that has a hard time losing hate is very useful, especially in an emergency.

Double Post Edited:
Yeah... I tried to do WAR/DRG with a GAX in Kazham, just to see how well it worked.




It was ok, not very great (although I'm sure this is mostly due to the PT sucking). Would probably be better with High Jump, though.

[Armando]

Armando: Are you a math teacher? That aside, thanks for bringing some numbers into this to help show my point. Yes, I realize that S.Break takes 40EVA, but people at this level only see damage, and want Sturmwind anyway, which negates the point.Haha, no, I'm not a math teacher. I just graduated from high school about a month ago. But it's curious that you say "but people at this level only see damage, and want Sturmwind anyway, which negates the point." Does it really? Sturmwind does more damage than Raging Axe, and I demonstrated that overall, Great Axe does more damage regardless of sub (since /NIN offers Great Axe no advantage, and all the other subs give bigger advantage to Great Axe than Axe.)

[Feba]

I mean, negates the point of using it for breaks, and axe is doing well in the damage department anyway.

[Murphie]

I loved countering with GAXE as a WAR/MNK. It made me all tingly.

[Feba]

Yeah, counter is pretty freaking hot. If PLD ever got their own voke ability, MNK would be such an awesome sub...



I mean, everyone would use /NIN, but MNK would be so kickass for PLD. Um, off topic.

[IfritnoItazura]

Armando: Are you a math teacher? That aside, thanks for bringing some numbers into this to help show my point.
>_> Are you sure you understand Armando's post? Comparing number to number, he says Military Axe (Great Axe) can do about 10.3% more damage than Tigerhunter (one-hand Axe); 7.9566 dmg/s vs.7.1367 dmg/s.

He quietly pointed out that all else equal, you'd get more damage from Military Axe on WAR/NIN than dual Tigerhunter. (Think what WAR/THF can do with that once hit Lv.30+)

Not saying you're doing badly because you avoid Great Axes, but if it's a choice between those two weapons, Military Axe wins both for damage potential (Sturmwind) and potential for helping melees in party (Shield Break).

I always brought both Axe and Great Axe to party on WAR, depending on what party needs for SC. Then again, I understand wanting to play your own way--I never did let on I had /NIN available when I was on WAR.... <_<; I liked WAR/MNK... (Wish I have time to level DRG for subjob, though... Not that I can afford that earring... ._. )


Edit:
...but people at this level only see damage, and want Sturmwind anyway ...
It's not true that pick up parties only use Distortion; my last party in the second jungle on RDM had Fragmentation and Distortion. Well, the party leader (me) only wanted Distortion (Double Thrust > (SATA) Fast Blade), but the WAR/MNK was unhappy when I ask him to solo Shield Break at the beginning of fights, so the JP DRK set up Shadow of Death > Sturmwind with him, ignoring me... ._.

[Feba]

Show my point that Great Axe triumphs in WS, but Axe can outdd it in normal melee.


While he compared Military Axe to Tigerhunters, he should've compared to Military pick. There's no reason to pick the best of one weapon, and the standard of another. I didn't even know there WAS a Military Axe, when I first read his post I assumed he was talking about Picks.

[Murphie]

I've never even seen a Military Axe at the AH. I've seen the occasional Military Pick, but they are also ridiculously expensive.

[Armando]

Show my point that Great Axe triumphs in WS, but Axe can outdd it in normal melee.


While he compared Military Axe to Tigerhunters, he should've compared to Military pick. There's no reason to pick the best of one weapon, and the standard of another. I didn't even know there WAS a Military Axe, when I first read his post I assumed he was talking about Picks.But if you combine normal damage and WS damage, Great Axe still comes out on top.

The reason I don't compare it to military picks is because there's no point. Military Picks would probably just come out on top by virtue of their amazing (for that level) DMG/Delay ratio. I referred to it as "THE GOD AXE" and pretty much acknowledged its awesomeness. Also, Military Picks are pretty damned expensive, and somewhat rare (I believe they come from Garrison, after all) so you hardly see people using them, let alone two. But, if you really want me to...

Raging Axe w/ Dual Wielded Military Picks:
[(24 * (45 * 0.30)) * 1.0 * 1.0] * 3 = 111 damage

Dual Wielded Military Picks
6.3 TP per hit
Hits needed post-WS to reach 100 TP: 14 (7 Attack rounds)
Time required: 54.6 secs
Damage done in 7 attack rounds: 336
WS damage: 111
Total damage: 447
Total damage/second: 447/54.6 = 8.1868

Dual Military Picks exceed Military Axe in total damage by roughly 2.89%. However, you'd need two of them; having a Tigerhunter in the offhand won't exceed Great Axe damage:

Raging Axe w/ Military Pick + Tigerhunter:
[(24 + (45 * 0.30)) * 1.0 * 1.0] * 2 + [(22 + (45 * 0.30)) * 1.0 * 1.0] = 109 damage

Military Pick + Tigerhunter
6.4 TP per hit
Hits needed to reach 100 TP post-WS: 14 (7 attack rounds)
Time required: 56.23 secs
Damage done in 7 attack rounds: (24 * 7) + (22 * 7) = 168 + 154 = 322
WS damage: 109
Total damage: 431
Total damage/sec: 431/56.23 = 7.6649

Military Axe would outdamage Military Pick + Tigerhunter by roughly 3.8%. Thus, unless you're Dual Wielding two Military Picks, Great Axe is statistically better.

I've never even seen a Military Axe at the AH. I've seen the occasional Military Pick, but they are also ridiculously expensive.I've seen Military Axes in Midgardsormr. I used one for my Promyvions. I believe it cost me about 70k, but that was months ago.

[Murphie]

Well, I should add that I haven't looked lately. Once upon a time I didn't see them very much. They are a Garrison drop as well, if I'm not mistaken.

[Armando]

As of now, there is one Military Axe up for sale on Midgardsormr's Jeuno AH. Two sold today, and they're going for 50k. There are 9 Military Picks (wow) for sale, one sold today, and three yesterday. They are going for roughly 400k.

Looks like Military Picks aren't even remotely rare nowadays on Midgardsormr, but you'd have to pay 800k for a pair. It basically comes down to wether or not you can afford to put out that much money for the weapons.

Oh, and yes, they do both drop from Garrisons (30-cap) though they may not drop from the same ones. The drop lists on Mysterytour are kinda incomplete, but it reports Military Pick dropping from both Derfland and Zulkheim, and Military Axe dropping from Zulkheim (no drop list for Aragoneu for some reason.)

[Lmnop]

Valis ; ;

I meant I agreed with you. I think everyone turns Warrior into some sort of one trick rampaging pony (oh the mental images of cute ponies destroying cities). In this regard, I think people who one-dimensionalize it aren't doing it any honor. I never meant to imply that you were doing the dishonoring. I guess i've been coming off harsh a lot these last few weeks...

However, after stating this, I wanted to go on to share my account that oftentimes, we pigeonhole ourselves into /nin. It's very understandible why people love it so much. Survivability is actually very hard to come by in a game where soloing was practically taboo when the game first came out. /nin gives an amazing amount of just that - survivability. I won't argue. It saddens me but it's potent.

All told though, I still used greataxe majority of the time 'til 50. /nin or no, I just think it performs better.

@Feba: You know I don't like that you're not leveling Greataxe, but I really don't care, all the same. I know you're good at this game, I respect you.

Btw, i've had very dissapointing Greataxe results in the low 60s :/ I need to go back to the drawing board before I start posting about it but so far it's not looking too hot. Underwhelming Raging Rushes and DoT that isn't what it should be.

[Feba]

quick scan of AH shows milatary axe and pick, both with three in stock, axe at about 200, pick at 400.


So yes, pick will be more expensive, but most likely WARs will not be using a military axe either.

[Spinnthrift]

Feba - in reply to your points...

1: You don't need Utsusemi to tank. No really. With a good support team, hitting enfeebs and the like early on in the fight.

2: I don't voke in a fight anyways. If I do voke, that means I'm tanking for the rest of that fight - regardless (even with using just breaks, my damage gives tanks headaches anyways).

3: So, you acknowledge that damage isn't everything - utility has purpose.

4: If they need breaks, they get breaks - even if they want Sturmwind. Plus - I use the whole War/Drg build and going for +haste with monster G. Axes. Which is usually a signifier that I'll be taking the debuff role on.

- Saeriel

[Freyr]

Ninja should be left alone for the most part but Ninja when used as a sub should be nurfed. Ninja's are the new Ranger Pre-Nurf, Just throw as many /nin at the problem as possable. To fix this make it so ???/NIN get the same amount of shadows as a NIN/??? BUT Utsusemi triggers before Eva when subbed, unlike Eva before Utsusemi when used Nin/???.

[lionx]

Go further ;i not 100% blinks. I am not in favor of most things with NIN since i feel it plays too much part in our game. Esepcially with Ni. Some people do not want nerfs and only buffs, but theres few things that you can buff up to the power of avoiding damage like that.

[Spinnthrift]

Now now gentlemen... we've gone from saying that the G. Axe is a good thing to calling out for nerfs.

Nerfing is never a good thing, and only serves to upset more people than it pleases.

- Saeriel.

[Freyr]

Go further ;i not 100% blinks. I am not in favor of most things with NIN since i feel it plays too much part in our game. Esepcially with Ni. Some people do not want nerfs and only buffs, but theres few things that you can buff up to the power of avoiding damage like that.
Your idea or my idea not both that would be to much. Also I'm only saying this when you sub Ninja NOT when your main job is Ninja.

Now now gentlemen... we've gone from saying that the G. Axe is a good thing to calling out for nerfs.

Nerfing is never a good thing, and only serves to upset more people than it pleases.

- Saeriel.
G.Axe is better then Axe when you sub Ninja or not IMO. Im saying nurf ninja when subbed because it's over all game wise unbalanced.

1. When you go on a quest or mission and everyone but you is subbing ninja, even the mages, you know something is wrong.
2. When you see level 10 people running around with a ninja sub, you know something is wrong.
3. When people won't invite you as a damage dealer role without ninja, even tho the only weapons you can use in your class is two handers, you know something is wrong.
4. When there is a Mage tanking a god and is doing better then the Paladin, you know something is wrong.

[lionx]

Your idea or my idea not both that would be to much. Also I'm only saying this when you sub Ninja NOT when your main job is Ninja.

Oh yeah sure as a sub if you want, but i feel PLD either needs something equivalent to taking no damage, or something should be done about blink. Old shield system no dmg but more blocks AND TP? Maybe ;i

[Feba]

You don't need Utsusemi to tank. No really. With a good support team, hitting enfeebs and the like early on in the fight.yes, I know, but with shadows you can keep a PT that knows how to bounce hate going with very few cures.

[Lmnop]

let's please shy away from that topic. Especially since I believe NIN mains abuse the game the most.

As for Greataxe... is there really anything left to say?

[Spinnthrift]

yes, I know, but with shadows you can keep a PT that knows how to bounce hate going with very few cures.

Which creates Whm's who won't party with a Paladin and so on... you know the arguements and the truth of it all...

[Murphie]

I'd die of boredom in an all /NIN party. I always hated that.

[Feba]

Personally, i'd prefer a PT with two tanks bouncing hate, than one subpar tank trying to solo tank.


37+ you should aim for a PLD or NIN, though, since that's when they start to shine.

Double Post Edited:
oh, and for anyone who cares, I bought a cheap gax off AH, and skill it up some while lfg and other random waits (like AF1)

Typically skillup Marksmanship(Bloody Bolts) more though..

[Murphie]

A PLD on his game can start to shine much earlier (although I still think a solo WAR/MNK trumps everyone in tanking until at least 30), but even with a main NIN tank, I don't expect my backup tanks to sub NIN (because, unless they are WAR, they can't anyway).

[Feba]

I'm mostly talking about the 30-37 Range.

Until 30, most melee jobs can tank. Hell, I DRG/BRD solo'd or DRG/WAR tanked most of those levels.

[Raydeus]

At lvl 29 when they get Kampfbrust set PLD and WAR become the unmatched best tanks.

But then at 37 PLD and NIN get their killer abilities that leave WARs far behind.


Edit> for clarity, well... at least it's more readable now :P

[Murphie]

Well, I did say earlier on (meaning earlier than 37), and pre-30 in regard to WAR. I was DRG/WAR tanking (and pulling, orz) in the dunes this weekend. Not really my ideal setup, but it worked out ok.

[Feba]

lol, drg pulling... I actually kept a couple pebble belts on me back when I leveled DRG, just in case.


Had to use it at times ><


If you want some real fun, fully gear your DRG to attacking, and get a platoon lance. Tanking over people with voke, right there...

[Murphie]

Well, if I'm a DD DRG (which I will be from time to time), that's the plan (although I do plan to have THF and WHM and RDM and BRD and anything else I may need for later). I have a Platoon Lance in storage already from having to buy it for one of the guys who helped me with 2-3.

I've leveled DRG before (on my mithra and hume to 32 and 40 respectively), so I kind of know what to expect, but I'm still loving the damage I put out as an Elvaan DRG.

[Raydeus]

lol, drg pulling... I actually kept a couple pebble belts on me back when I leveled DRG, just in case.

For some reason everytime I see a DRG pulling with a pebble I fall out of my chair laughing :rofl:

Why doesn't DRG have any ranged weapons they can use is one of the biggest mysteries in Vana for me.

[Murphie]

For some reason everytime I see a DRG pulling with a pebble I fall out of my chair laughing :rofl:

Why doesn't DRG have any ranged weapons they can use is one of the biggest mysteries in Vana for me.

Or even more logical, a controllable pet like PUP that we can send in to attack.

But heck, even a crossbow would be fine with me.

[Feba]

I think the best mystery is vana'diel is.. http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/7457



Ranged accuracy. wtf?

[Raydeus]

Ranged accuracy. wtf?

Maybe DRG was meant to be a Pebble DD! Imagine a DRG/RNG spamming Empyreal Pebble :rofl:



Edit> as a side note, any chance R. Acc affects Jumps? :huh:

[Feba]

nope, Jump is a physical attack. It stacks with your melee weapon, double attack, triple attack, critical hits, and in general melee buffs.


This is way DRK/DRG KClub+SE = win ^-^


btw, jump stacks with sneak attack

[Kenki]

Great Axe is good to have.. it's always better to have more than Axe level up. You never know when you have to sub thf for Raging Rush. I'd level up spear and Gsword too if I had time but they don't have a lot of use for War though.

In a PT with a Nin, Mnk 2 mages and 1 support, the 1st thing they will need at this time is a Thf or someone with /thf sub. Or a lv60 PT with a Drk/War, you will want to sub Thf to make the SC works well and the PT rolling. Or you can sub /nin and blame the tank being {Too weak} or the Drk is stupid and worthless subbing War.

[Liquidedust]

On a side-note and lil off-topic (yeah I know these mobs have basically negative def but still). This one were a 4-hitter and no SATA (friend Draganor subbed /NIN so yeah).

Wierd stuff happens in Promies from time to time when using a Greataxe.

[Shinjii]

Great Axe is good to have think of how u want to be in the end game side of it. Axe is great or merit pts and all but in the END when it comes to Gods and HNM everyone wants a Great Axe used from warrior. and the fact that great axe is A+ where axe is A- makes a difference in teh end game aspect of GA. i am thinking of doing some testing removing all ym Axe merits and Meriting GA to +16 skill and trying a few ws's I am a taru and the highest Steel Cyclone i have done is only 1300 whereas my highest rampage is 1600. i think i could probably get in the 1800's with rampage on an IT mob in exp but it would require luck for double attack and crit hits and a few other equips i can't afford right now.

as for great axe i think if used properly u could get well into the 2k's with ease and /thf makes it great for exchanging hate on gods.

[Loic]

from level 1 iv'e been keeping axe capped and at 5 keeping gaxe capped as well. if you keep there levels close through your time leveling whichever job you choose which can use both then you should be fine. axe to me isnt worth it even with raging axe at a low level. rampage[level 175] is when it becomes more combat effective. the delay is lower then a gaxe as far as i can tell but then again dw caused it to be almost like a ga or other two handed weapon[ delay seemed to be almost the same ] then again with dw axe you can possibly attack up to 4 times i think. sturmwind at 300tp is worth it , shield break and armor break are awesome with 150+ tp. eva loss and def loss help the lower dmg dealing members [ nin , thf etc ] in dealing that little extra. hope that helps

[queenuma]

I've always tried to keep both my axe and great axe capped when I play warrior. I also used my war for skilling great sword and scythe for my drk (both jobs are in the 40s).

Just hit a dilemma on my choice of GA at the moment. I can't figure out which is better, my Horror Voulge (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6687) or my Raifu (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/5363). I've used both on xp mobs and can't find any difference in the damage between the two.

I have a pair of Viking axes ready for when I hit 48 and am /nin, but I like to use GA when /thf. Also I have a Gigant Axe (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/389) ready for when I hit 49.

I think GA is one of the most underrated weapons in the game. They have damage equal to a scythe and have slightly lower delays, the break weapon skills are fantastic and Sturmwind has is possibly the most powerful low level ws in the game.

[Feba]

've used both on xp mobs and can't find any difference in the damage between the two.I'd recommend the horror volge, but if you can't see any difference at all, sell whichever is more expensive, unless you need the Horror for 40 cap, in which case sell raifu.

[queenuma]

I'd recommend the horror volge, but if you can't see any difference at all, sell whichever is more expensive, unless you need the Horror for 40 cap, in which case sell raifu.

Both are pretty cheap on the AH, around 10k-20k each last time I checked. I like the horror voulge for the vit+1 if I have to tank and the fact that my drk can use it but I also like the Raifu if we are fighting water based mobs (looks better too). Doubt I will be doing any 40 cap events/BCs with my warrior. Hmm decisions, decisions.........

Thanks anyway. :thumbsup:

[lionx]

again with dw axe you can possibly attack up to 4 times i think.

This is a misconception....while it looks cool and seems you are attacking more, you really arent, if you single wield them you have just an equal chance of swinging two times, and getting double attack off both of them. That is equivalent to dual wielding and swinging 4 times because of the delay between swings is lengthened. This might not be true once you get DWII though.

[Tokitoki]

There is a slight, very slight, delay reduction with DWI, but yea... GAxes huh? <.<

[lionx]

A slight delay also means lower TP gain per individual hit if i recall correctly.

[Tokitoki]

yea

[Liquidedust]

This is a misconception....while it looks cool and seems you are attacking more, you really arent, if you single wield them you have just an equal chance of swinging two times, and getting double attack off both of them. That is equivalent to dual wielding and swinging 4 times because of the delay between swings is lengthened. This might not be true once you get DWII though.

Compared to a Gaxe when dual-wielding Axe you do get more chanches to Double Attack due to the number of attacks over time.

You will have the same amount of chances to Double-attack with single wield or Dual-wield Axes over time.Disclaimer
Just meant to illustrate what diffrences there are between Axe/DW Axe/Gaxe.
Lets illustrate this with ganing 100% TP without considering DA proc at 85% accuracy, and assume Double Attack proc is around 10%.Single-wield Axe
The standard Axe is around 288 delay so which is 7.85 TP per hit.

The axe needs 15 attacks with 85% accuracy to reach 100% TP (14.98 to be exakt but rounding up), this is 15 combat rounds or ~72 seconds.

During this the chance to see an Double Attack is quite likely since we assume the proc is 10% or 1/10 attacks and if that double attack hits we get down to 14 combat rounds (67) instead of 15 (~72s) to get 100% TP.

This would be a net gain of 5 seconds or 6.9% faster to reach 100% TP and WS + SC.

Dual-wield Axe
The standard Axe is around 288 delay so with 2 delay 288 Axes and DW I our total delay comes out at 518 ((288*2)*0.9) which is 7.06 TP per hit.

The axe needs 17 attacks with 85% accuracy to reach 100% TP (16.66 to be exakt but rounding up), this is 9 combat rounds or ~77 seconds.

During this the chance to see an Double Attack is quite likely since we assume the proc is 10% or 1/10 attacks and if that double attack hits we get down to 8 combat rounds (69s) instead of 9 (~77s) to get 100% TP.

This would be a net gain of 8 seconds or 10.4% faster to reach 100% TP and WS + SC.

Great Axe
A common Great Axe has 504 Delay and gives 13.74 Tp per hit.

The great axe needs 9 attacks with 85% accuracy to reach 100% TP (8.56 to be exact but rounding up), this is 9 combat rounds or ~75 seconds.

During this time the chance to see an Double Attack is possible but not likely since we assume that proc is only 10% and 1/10 attacks.

I f a double attack did proc we would get down to 8 combat rounds (~67s) instead of 9 (~75s) to get 100% TP.

This would in this case be a net gain of 8 seconds as well or 10.7% faster to reach 100% TP and WS + SC.
Conclusion
Both Great Axe and Axe benefit equally from double attack when it comes to TP gain.

However Dual-wielding Axes comes out on top due to the higher number of attacks that Double Attack can proc on to get 100% TP compared to Great Axe.

And due to how much time a single double attack can shave off in combat round time for a dual-wielder compared a Warrior that single-wield axes.

Conclusion
(Bad grammar and bad choice of words, kept for the sake of me being quoted. Also what you get for posting before breakfast and coffee)
Both Great Axe and Axe benefit equally from double attack when it comes to TP gain.

However Dual-wielding Axes comes out on top due to the higher number of attacks that Double Attack can proc on to get 100% TP while Dual-wielding Axes.

And due to how much a single double attack can shave off in time for a dual-wielder when it comes to combat rounds.


A slight delay also means lower TP gain per individual hit if i recall correctly.

DW I is a slight delay "bonus" of 10%, and yes it does lower TP gain per hit, but remain the same TP gain over time (when they changed the TP formula they even increased the TP gain with about 4% for a Warrior that dual-wields Axes/Swords compared to the old formula).

A Warrior cannot with either the old or new forumula abuse the TP floor since we couldn't reach it with any Axe/Sword combo that we usually equipped.

[Armando]

Conclusion
Both Great Axe and Axe benefit equally from double attack when it comes to TP gain.

However Dual-wielding Axes comes out on top due to the higher number of attacks that Double Attack can proc on to get 100% TP while Dual-wielding Axes.

And due to how much a single double attack can shave off in time for a dual-wielder when it comes to combat rounds.I don't see how you reach this conclusion. Using your own logic, DA will probably kick in once, but probably not twice for Dual Weilded Axes. Since an Axe swing is roughly half a GA swing, an axe DA is roughly half the worth of a GA DA. Also, when you do get that DA in with the Great Axe, the ammount of time shaved off to reach 100 TP is far greater than the time you save by getting an Axe DA. Either way, you can't just go with "since Axe does 10+ swings, you'll most likely get a DA." I've tried to do DA tests, and it's VERY erratic. I've started off some tests with like 15 out of 80 attack rounds getting DA, which is much higher than a 10% proc rate, and then I'll hit a dry spell where I hardly get any DAs at all to balance it out. What happens when you get 2 GA DA swings on the same 0-to-100 TP set of swings? You also left out that if DA kicks in on a GA WS, you get a much bigger increase in damage than getting a DA in, say, Raging Axe.

Double Attack benefits all weapons pretty much evenly. Wether DW Axes or Great Axe are better is purely depending on the weapon's DMG/Delay ratings, and WS.

[Lmnop]

Oh good, Armando beat me to it. I'll just continue on my merry way...

... Back to Starcraft with me.

[Liquidedust]

I don't see how you reach this conclusion. Using your own logic, DA will probably kick in once, but probably not twice for Dual Weilded Axes. Since an Axe swing is roughly half a GA swing, an axe DA is roughly half the worth of a GA DA. Also, when you do get that DA in with the Great Axe, the ammount of time shaved off to reach 100 TP is far greater than the time you save by getting an Axe DA. Either way, you can't just go with "since Axe does 10+ swings, you'll most likely get a DA." I've tried to do DA tests, and it's VERY erratic. I've started off some tests with like 15 out of 80 attack rounds getting DA, which is much higher than a 10% proc rate, and then I'll hit a dry spell where I hardly get any DAs at all to balance it out. What happens when you get 2 GA DA swings on the same 0-to-100 TP set of swings? You also left out that if DA kicks in on a GA WS, you get a much bigger increase in damage than getting a DA in, say, Raging Axe.

Double Attack benefits all weapons pretty much evenly. Wether DW Axes or Great Axe are better is purely depending on the weapon's DMG/Delay ratings, and WS.

Timed shaved off for GAxe and DW Axes are pretty much the same if you assume 85% hit rate (due to how combat rounds work for DW Axes).

This is in this example you just need one extra hit with DW Axes to shave off an entire combat round (a combat round is basically as long for DW axes as it is for a Great Axe).

And on DA, yes sometimes you just get insane streaks of DA procing overall it is around 8~12% proc rate though.

If you happen to DA a lot Great Axe will basically always come out on top though thanks to its TP/hit while single and DW Axes fall behind.

This weren't meant to be something 100% conclusive just to examplify to how DA affected the combat rounds of a Dual-wielding Warrior compared to single wielding as well as a Great Axes wielding Warrior.

Also the problem with math, math never lies but has a hard time illustrate a lot of occurances unless you write an expression insted of an equation.

And as we all know expressions don't really have an answer (since they lack the equal sign an equation has) but does have an application instead (to test random variables out).

I can program and application with an expression to take into account every random variable there is, but that would be like a parse. It doesn't lie but doesn't show the absolute truth either.

[lionx]

^ Thank you for answering my questions Armando, you rock tons <3

[Loic]

iv'e attacked up to 4 times [ testing ] however now im prone to using my Horror voulge more so then my razor/comb casters axe. Pts kinda ask you if possible to dw , especially during prommys. however GA does insane dmg especially now with str up to +20 or more with food. However rare it is , 4 swings is rediculous dmg. with the newly introduced warriors charge war will be almost unmatchable with ws when merited properly. just an opinion , then again im only level 40.

[Gwynn]

iv'e attacked up to 4 times [ testing ] however now im prone to using my Horror voulge more so then my razor/comb casters axe. Pts kinda ask you if possible to dw , especially during prommys. however GA does insane dmg especially now with str up to +20 or more with food. However rare it is , 4 swings is rediculous dmg. with the newly introduced warriors charge war will be almost unmatchable with ws when merited properly. just an opinion , then again im only level 40.
>_> /wave Loic

I've always been a strong advocate of the Great Axe, especially at earlier levels before Viking Axes, DWII, and Rampage where Axe/Axe really starts to shine. A Warrior not skilling both Axe and Great Axe would be like a DRK not having both Scythe and Great Sword. Both are fantastic weapons that have varied uses, and a WAR should be able to use the proper weapon when the time comes.

<_< Now, since my WAR is only level 20, you all can go ahead and ignore everything I just said if you want.

[Loic]

lol whats up bro , didnt know you were on DIV. what he says is true , most have there preferance but in any situation if you have both leveled [ lmao unlike Cril ] then you can handle any dd situation no matter what comes along for your war.