/nin > /whm

[qaitakalnin]

Ok i saw this on the whm boards, a brd/nin in a merit party. Ok so i submit to you bards here on these boards....HUH?! oK given some situations i could see brd/nin (saw a video of one tanking the bird god but with a back up crew that was really really on the ball) in some very unique situations, but a merit party? Given the right gear i could definitly see some melee happening, not enough actual dmg out put to warrent the dual wield, but as long as it dont hurt the pt.

My question though is, even in a merit party, isnt /whm way more useful, sure you get the shadows but isnt stoneskin way more effective (not to mention cheaper)? Not only that but at that lvl arent you kind of expected to assist the whm in keepin the party alive? I will admit i have never been in a merit pt and that my bard is only lvl66, but in just your normal, everyday kinda pt I would still think that /whm > /nin, except in very specific cercumstances. Opinions?

[Murphie]

I think they sub NIN because they are pulling, and don't want to die horribly on the way back to camp. At least, that's why the two 75 BRDs in my LS do it.

[qaitakalnin]

Ok but isnt stonesking and blink comparable or better than shadows?

[Murphie]

I dunno. Maybe at that level. And maybe while subbed, but possibly not. Utsusemi doesn't lose any strength when subbed, but Stoneskin and Blink very well may.

[Ellipses]

I'm not that high level, but I'd imagine not. Remember you'd have both Ichi and Ni in a merit party, and those are guaranteed misses compared to Blink's lame chance of missing and a half-leveled Stoneskin. I'd imagine the reasoning is, since you don't have time to help heal much anyway, just give the healer a little less to heal.

[Murphie]

Plus the melee all usually sub NIN at that level too, so it's not often that a lot of healing is even needed.

[Ziero]

Ni casts faster then SS and requires no mp thus the brd will never have to rest. Including the fact it absorbs melee AoEs, it's very useful against weapon mobs which are(or at least were) a common Merit point target.

[qaitakalnin]

well then i guess i am really glad i have my nin to 37.

[Icemage]

Utsusemi: Ichi and Utsusemi: Ni are used in merit parties to reduce the need for the main healer to heal you when you get hit (as mentioned above, Blink is unreliable, and you're lucky if Stoneskin will absorb a single hit for you).

It's not vastly more efficient than /WHM, but Utsusemi can get you back out and pulling again several seconds earlier per pull and makes those endless XP chains much easier to hit.


Icemage

[qaitakalnin]

Understood Icemage, i just wasnt aware that brd/nin was so much more usefull, or rather that the situations in which you would be /nin over /whm included merit parties

[Credos]

If you're in a proper TP burn PT, you should only have a RDM as healer. That being said, you better trust your RDM a whole hell of a lot to sub NIN for pulling reasons only.

Stoneskin is based on MND. Blink and SS both take a long time to cast, and to be honest I don't even use it. If you want to pull as a BRD, learn how to do it properly. You should be able to play Carnage Elegy at maximum distance, run back to camp and sleep the mob next to the party before he hits you more than once.

Honestly, for TP burn pts I think it a complete waste to sub /NIN for BRD.

[qaitakalnin]

Interesting a disenting opinion, but let me ask you this, if you get back to your pt, all the songs are still up, why wouldnt you cast stoneskin and/or blink? i mean if you have the time (and i honestly dont know what time is like for a merit pt, or roaming pt for that matter so you may not have the time), cause even if it is just for 1 or 2 hits isnt that enough to justify the time spent casting?

[Karinya]

However, if you look at the rest of that thread, you'll see some of the problems the BRD/NIN was causing... since he wasn't /WHM himself, he didn't bother ballading the healer either. Don't do that. The healer still needs ballad even if you don't.

Given that fact, I don't think the MP cost of stoneskin is significant, although you may have a point about the casting time.

But in a party full of /NINs, why is the bard pulling anyway? Get one of the warriors to bring a bow or something. I understand why bards pull for manaburns, but what's the point of having them pull for TP parties? There's pretty much guaranteed to be 2-3 better choices for puller - more HP, better DEF and VIT, going to sub NIN anyway. And it doesn't force the bard to split his time between singing and pulling while the WAR/NINs stand around waiting for the monster to come in.

[Credos]

Interesting a disenting opinion, but let me ask you this, if you get back to your pt, all the songs are still up, why wouldnt you cast stoneskin and/or blink? i mean if you have the time (and i honestly dont know what time is like for a merit pt, or roaming pt for that matter so you may not have the time), cause even if it is just for 1 or 2 hits isnt that enough to justify the time spent casting?

In merit PT I'm lucky to be able to get one song off, much less two before the first mob is dead. Typically, it looks like this:

Pull > Min > pull > march > pull > Ballad > pull > Ballad.

Note these are high chain pt on Puks/Imps.

Honestly, I don't waste my time with SS or Blink because if I have 4-5 seconds of free time, I'm not doing my job properly.

Double Post Edited:

But in a party full of /NINs, why is the bard pulling anyway? Get one of the warriors to bring a bow or something. I understand why bards pull for manaburns, but what's the point of having them pull for TP parties? There's pretty much guaranteed to be 2-3 better choices for puller - more HP, better DEF and VIT, going to sub NIN anyway. And it doesn't force the bard to split his time between singing and pulling while the WAR/NINs stand around waiting for the monster to come in.

Because BRD can sleep the mob, and have it ready and waiting for the melee when they are done with the first. And the melee in the PT can focus on killing the mob as soon as possible.

[Murphie]

I thought BRDs pull in merit parties because it's faster. And they can sleep one pull while the party beats on another.

[Credos]

I thought BRDs pull in merit parties because it's faster. And they can sleep one pull while the party beats on another.

Yup.

[capitalistnihilist]

But in a party full of /NINs, why is the bard pulling anyway? Get one of the warriors to bring a bow or something. I understand why bards pull for manaburns, but what's the point of having them pull for TP parties? There's pretty much guaranteed to be 2-3 better choices for puller - more HP, better DEF and VIT, going to sub NIN anyway. And it doesn't force the bard to split his time between singing and pulling while the WAR/NINs stand around waiting for the monster to come in.


I'm wondering if you have ever actually participated in a TP burn meripo. If there are WARs "standing around waiting for the monster to come in" the party sucks. BRD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any melee at pulling in TP burn.

[Murphie]

Yup.

Your edit was just too fast. :P It wasn't there when I posted, I swear.

[Icemage]

The melee/NIN and NIN/wars aren't main pulling because they're killing the monsters. Sure, everyone pulls in merit parties, but having the bard "scouting" for new targets while the party is still fighting the last one greatly increases your chances of completing the next link in your XP/limit chain.


Icemage

[qaitakalnin]

Ok well all good information :) thank you icemage. Sounds like merit pts are going to be a freakin blast :) i love a constant fluid party, and although my rng static isnt quite there yet we are close :)

[Yeargdribble]

I'm also with Icemage that /NIN is far more efficient for a good TP burn PT. Stoneskin takes too long to cast.

I also have to disagree a bit with Credos. I've found from plenty of pulling experience that 2xBallad isn't really possible while keeping two songs on the melees 100% of the time. It's much more efficient to keep Minuet+March on melees than to tag the mages with an extra 1MP/tick. I only throw out a Ballad I if I get a lucky double pull with things that link (like flies) and I have a bit of extra time.

If your PT is a good an efficient PT you won't have time to cast cures at all which renders /WHM almost useless. /RDM is decent if your PT is freaking out that you won't be able to backup heal as it as least allows your some fast cast to compensate even though you won't have curaga or -nas.

I often run into people that freak out at the though of the BRD not backup healing and that's usually because of crappy main healers. The MP you would be saving the main healer by not getting beaten on the way to camp will more than make up for you not back up curing yourself.

Most of the dissenting opinions about /NIN are BRDs that don't have /NIN available, have never tired it, and don't wanna go through the trouble and cost it incurs.

[Jei]

75 TP burn PT is a LOT different from any lower level normal PT ^^
Brd/Nin is godly here assuming you have a good set up. Usually 4 melee with utsusemi and 1 mage.

[Feba]

Just a little view on Stoneskin and Blink:


Stoneskin will absorb, at a maximum, around 350 damage. Since you'll be casting this with lower MND than an RDM or WHM, and without any native enhancing magic, this will be lowered, quite a bit.

Even if you COULD max it out at 350 as a BRD, assuming a monster hits for 150 damage on average, that's just two hits, and then one for 2/3rds damage.

Blink is just a safety barrier. It's nice when you're soloing, to take a hit for you, but on IT mobs, especially when subbed, it's very ineffective. Most times, when I leveled BLM, I wouldn't even bother to keep blink up.


Utsusemi, however, is both very quick to cast, and gives you 4 (although I beleive it's 3 when subbed?) shadows of safety. If we again assume 150 damage, this is 600 damage negated (450?). If the BRD is able to cast utsusemi:Ichi afterwards, that's another 3 shadows, so 1050(900?) damage absorbed total. Not to mention the fact that 7(6?) hits will take a mob much longer than 2.

This is still completely ignoring the fact that /WHM gives useful things like status cures, cures, raise, and other things of that nature... But you can see why a BRD would sub NIN in a PT where they have to pull.

[Karinya]

150 on a bard? Wow, those are some weak-ass mobs. Kindred Warriors do 150 on a PLD.

Do you actually get exp for killing something that pathetic?

[Feba]

I'm just making up numbers. put it at 200, 250, 300, whatever, you see it just gets more and more effective.

[Raydeus]

The melee/NIN and NIN/wars aren't main pulling because they're killing the monsters. Sure, everyone pulls in merit parties, but having the bard "scouting" for new targets while the party is still fighting the last one greatly increases your chances of completing the next link in your XP/limit chain.


Icemage

I think the part I bolded is the most important thing to notice in this discussion.

Most of the times you get invited to parties where many of the melee aren't /NIN, in these cases BRDs really need to get ballad on the RDM at all times, simply because of all the healing/fast chaining involved. And some times the BRD will even have to backup heal from time to time (DS Curaga or something) if no one is subbing NIN, that's when /WHM is better.

Now, if everyone is /NIN then the RDM will be using mp on Haste and only a few cures from AoE, in these cases a BRD/NIN owns.

I think both sides are right, but it all depends on the party setup.

[Icemage]

150 on a bard? Wow, those are some weak-ass mobs. Kindred Warriors do 150 on a PLD.

Do you actually get exp for killing something that pathetic?

80-200 points of damage. Probably a bit more, but I pull with Earth Staff and Cheviot Cape swapped in after casting, so tack on +25-30% if you like.

Thing is, Utsusemi is guaranteed damage absorption. Blink is iffy, Stoneskin is marginal, and Blink + Stoneskin takes twice as long to cast as Utsusemi: Ichi (and you can cast Utsusemi: Ni as a last ditch defensive effort if a Lullaby fails or wears off early, something which you generally cannot do with Blink or Stoneskin).

Overall, BRD/NIN in the correct party definitely outperforms BRD/WHM or BRD/RDM, but your healers need to bring their best skills to the table for it to work.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Stoneskin is based on MND. Blink and SS both take a long time to cast, and to be honest I don't even use it. If you want to pull as a BRD, learn how to do it properly. You should be able to play Carnage Elegy at maximum distance, run back to camp and sleep the mob next to the party before he hits you more than once.

Honestly, for TP burn pts I think it a complete waste to sub /NIN for BRD.

Agreed. In my career as BRD, I have never once worried about taking damage on a pull in a good burn PT. I never even touched blink or stoneskin, either. BRD gets access to some nice - physical damage gear. If a BRD doesn't have access to an earth staff at the very least, they should be shot or booted... preferably both.

And really, if you have a RDM on main heal duties, you should sub /WHM to support them. /NIN is purely selfish in that context. And believe me, you're not doing WHMs any favors by subbing /NIN. Sure, they don't have to heal you, but -na spells are high in MP cost. If a BRD can cover that for a WHM, they should.

Also, RNG and THF don't sub /NIN for pulling, they sub NIN for when they pull hate and dual wield. Utsusemi for pulls is a very minor perk. Pull at a max safe distance and taking damage should always be a non-issue, if it works for RNG/WAR, it can work for BRD/WHM.

I also have to disagree a bit with Credos. I've found from plenty of pulling experience that 2xBallad isn't really possible while keeping two songs on the melees 100% of the time. It's much more efficient to keep Minuet+March on melees than to tag the mages with an extra 1MP/tick. I only throw out a Ballad I if I get a lucky double pull with things that link (like flies) and I have a bit of extra time.

Its very, very easy to keep four songs up, regardless of speedkill/TP Burns. The way I got around it was one tier of Ballad and Minuet one fight, pull, sleep, play the next tiers of each when after I slept the mob, then I went out to pull again, sleep and start all over again.

[Icemage]

Agreed. In my career as BRD, I have never once worried about taking damage on a pull in a good burn PT. I never even touched blink or stoneskin, either. BRD gets access to some nice - physical damage gear. If a BRD doesn't have access to an earth staff at the very least, they should be shot or booted... preferably both.

And really, if you have a RDM on main heal duties, you should sub /WHM to support them. /NIN is purely selfish in that context. And believe me, you're not doing WHMs any favors by subbing /NIN. Sure, they don't have to heal you, but -na spells are high in MP cost. If a BRD can cover that for a WHM, they should.

I've done a lot of burn parties (read: 90% of my parties in the last 2 months have been burn parties of one sort or another), and the combination of smart healer + smart BRD/NIN noticeably outperforms smart healer + smart BRD/WHM.

It does demand more skill and MP conservation skill from whoever is anchoring main healing (RDM/WHM or WHM/xxx), but with good players and reasonably good or better gear that's not really an issue.


Also, RNG and THF don't sub /NIN for pulling, they sub NIN for when they pull hate and dual wield. Utsusemi for pulls is a very minor perk. Pull at a max safe distance and taking damage should always be a non-issue, if it works for RNG/WAR, it can work for BRD/WHM.


...and this has nothing to do with the fact that rangers can shoot from longer range than bards can sing plus wear speed boosting gear like Strider Boots or Crimson Leggings, right? :P

It's not impossible to pull without getting hit as a Bard, but it's certainly challenging on long pulls, and monsters usually get at least get a couple swipes before you can make it back to camp and drop a Lullaby unless they are very close by. I don't care how good you are at pulling, you're going to get attacked at least a couple of times every other pull or so even if you're doing everything right.


Its very, very easy to keep four songs up, regardless of speedkill/TP Burns. The way I got around it was one tier of Ballad and Minuet one fight, pull, sleep, play the next tiers of each when after I slept the mob, then I went out to pull again, sleep and start all over again.

Eh... have you done a TP burn party in the new ToAU zones as a Bard? Monsters die really fast. Most bards I see have trouble maintaining Minuet + March + Ballad II. Only the most exceptional manage Ballad I consistently in addition to this (hint: it's usually the BRD/WHMs that have this problem when they're trying to maintain Blink and Stoneskin in between pulls).


Icemage

[Yeargdribble]

Keeping up all 4 songs and still being able to consistently pull chains without ceasing in new areas is nigh impossible. Maybe in sky PTs where the mobs is alive for longer than 10 seconds you can pull this off and also manage to get Stoneskin up. It's a different story in a play like Caedarva or near the Mamool Ja Staging Point. If a mob is alive for even 20 seconds I'd be shocked. In order to keep consistent chains you simply don't have time to sing 2 songs between pulls. The on exception being if you manage to get a double pull.

[Jei]

ToA merits.
we start attack a monster, war WS, Nin WS, it's dead ^^
That's about 5 seconds lol. ^^b

[Karinya]

Like I said before... you really get exp for something that weak?

If so, it's pretty sad how much the game has been dumbed down, at least for exp/merit.

15k/hr for killing things that basically can't fight back at all? Why don't they just give everyone 100 free merit points and be done with it?

[Jei]

C'mon Karinya, you're 75. You know what merits PTs are like. Don't talk like you've never been in one. Yes we merit on pretty weak mobs. But it doesn't mean you get random people into your PT and you instantly get 15k/hour.

Brd's pulling skill is a HUGE, if not the MAIN, factor here. Without good puller, you'll hardly break the 8k/hour mark. Of course the DD has to kill fast enough, but there's far more superior DD than there are superior BRD, since for DD, 80% of their attacking power relies on gear and not skill.

well, but good gear definitely helps Brd too nonetheless. All the haste and reduce song casting can only help Brd keeps up their songs a lot easier.

I don't have high level Brd, but I've been a main puller as Rdm too for both DD burn and manaburn PT. Using Rdm/nin is the only way I keep up to their killing pace. There's really no time to cast long spells like stoneskin.

[Feba]

hmm....kinda off topic, but if song casting time is awful, how good is RDM as a sub?

[Jei]

fast cast help. but you'll still be stuck with stoneskin and blink for protection.
getting the fast cast earring probably is a better option than /rdm.

[Feba]

I'm pretty sure everything that adds fast cast stacks. And doesn't the lv30 RDM mantle give fast cast?


So that's:
Native FC+Loq.Earring FC+Warlock's Mantle FC = ??? FC?


Someone want to test that?

[Jei]

I think that mantle only works when you /rdm?

The earring should stack I guess, it says "enhance fast cast" after all.

[Feba]

That's what I mean, using the mantle, /RDM, with the earring.


I'm 99% sure that the earring stacks, since when it came out RDMs were bitching that BLMs could get higher fast cast than they have.

[Yeargdribble]

I'm pretty sure all of the FC stacks. With /RDM+Minstrel's Ring+Manteel+Rostrum Pumps I can get 8 second songs down to around 3 seconds (35-45%ish). This is nice and I have gone /RDM to XP when the PT absolutely insists that I back up cure (which I usually end up doing almost none of because it's unneeded). However, I prefer to go /NIN when the PT isn't too afraid to let me. If I let the healer know what's up I can stay yellow to activate the Minstrel's Ring and get essentially the same bonus as /RDM while having shadows to keep me from being an MP sponge.

[Feba]

Now add that TO /RDM... Madrigal:Ni go? *grin*

[Karinya]

C'mon Karinya, you're 75. You know what merits PTs are like.
The ones I've been in are nothing like what you're describing. I don't have TAU (and I don't merit much anyway because it's not nearly as interesting or rewarding as other high-level activities), so merit parties I've seen pretty much fall into three categories:
1. Uleguerand/Lufaise/etc. with traditional party setups (ie a tank that tries to hold hate, etc). Goes pretty much the same as any exp party, maybe a bit easier; your chain breaks when you run out of nearby mobs.
2. Weapons in Ru'Avitau. Kill stuff, run around, kill more stuff. Chain breaks when the next monster is too far away or some jerk shuts a gate in your face and you have to backtrack to reopen it or there are too many parties trying to camp the same mobs at once. These parties don't really have or need a puller; brd is useful for their ability to buff people and provide MP without needing to sit still and rest. I'll point out that these VT weapons don't normally die in 5 seconds, or even 10; 30 is more like it. 15-20 if you have substantial TP saved up (but you won't be getting back to 100% in a fight that short).
3. Manaburns, mostly in KRT. Again, the chain breaks when you run out of mobs; manaburns can't roam because the BLMs need to be resting while you're out pulling. You can deliberately double pull #5-#6, but beyond that you'll have to hope for a lucky close pop.

I've heard of, but not seen, roaming monk parties in KRT. Because of undead aoe spam, RDM+BRD is absolutely required (well, until there is a significant supply of high level COR), which makes them rare.

I've never actually seen a party getting over 8k/hr (after the exp rings wear off). Hence my assumption that if TAU merit parties get 15k, there are drastic changes to mobs in those areas; they must be much easier than equivalent-level mobs in other areas, or much more abundant (but somehow without creating any add/link danger - super weak to sleep?), or both.

Or the Sanction exp buff is +100%, but I'm pretty sure it isn't.
I don't have high level Brd, but I've been a main puller as Rdm too for both DD burn and manaburn PT. Using Rdm/nin is the only way I keep up to their killing pace. There's really no time to cast long spells like stoneskin.
I've never had any trouble casting stoneskin when I pull for manaburns. I would probably die if I pulled two Spartoi with only utsusemi, though.


It amazes me that SE would make mobs with so few HP they can be killed in a few *seconds* count as VT to 75s. Two WS for 1000 each and let's say 10 normal hits for 150 (note, these numbers are assuming pretty low def on the mob's part) = 3500 HP. Robber crabs have almost that much. Say what you like, that's some pretty extreme dumbing down of the game to make a monster that weak worth decent exp to a party of 75s.

Maybe you're just exaggerating a bit? I can't really tell.

[Sethe]

I've never actually seen a party getting over 8k/hr (after the exp rings wear off). Hence my assumption that if TAU merit parties get 15k, there are drastic changes to mobs in those areas; they must be much easier than equivalent-level mobs in other areas, or much more abundant (but somehow without creating any add/link danger - super weak to sleep?), or both.


Correct on all accounts. Chain 100 {Do you need it?}

[Feba]

TAU mobs have teh advantage of super short recast, +15% EXP from sanction, and yes, incredibly weak.


I can't speak for mamook, but I know a friend of mine reported one WS taking up to half of an Imp's HP, consistantly.

[Murphie]

I think these easily killed mobs in TOAU areas are a godsend, personally. It's been a long times since I've seen endgame players so enthused.

[Icemage]

Even in non-ToAU zones you can hit 10K+/hr with a burn party. I don't know what sort of parties you've been in Karinya, but I've hit 10K/hr with manaburn parties in KRT, and similar numbers in sky on golems.

ToAU zones you can easily see 10-14K/hr with merit parties, depending on where and what you're fighting. Manaburn parties there can easily reach 10K/hr. Good TP burn parties that can chain indefinitely can reach close to 15K/hr.

The price? Well, you have to defend the Astral Candescence in Beseiged or all the XP goes back to "so-so", and it takes a while (like a week or so) for the XP bonuses to come back up to par if your server loses the Candescence.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

I like merit parties in the new areas, what I don't like is that now not many players want to xp back home anymore.

Why don't they give +xp and +Refresh, +Regen or +Food duration effects to signet as well? Even if those effects are lvl 50-60+ only.

I understand they want everyone to buy the new expansion, but the difference is such that now Beastmen own 2 or 3 times (if not more) more regions than they used to, at least in Fenrir.

[Murphie]

I like merit parties in the new areas, what I don't like is that now not many players want to xp back home anymore.

Why don't they give +xp and +Refresh, +Regen or +Food duration effects to signet as well? Even if those effects are lvl 50-60+ only.

I understand they want everyone to buy the new expansion, but the difference is such that now Beastmen own 2 or 3 times (if not more) more regions than they used to, at least in Fenrir.

Same on Bahamut. Sandy has been last since the expansion launched, and Beastmen control more of the world than anything else. It's rough on someone who just wants to get his Outpost Warps. :/