What & When to Cast Spells....

[Sepa]

RedMage is Enfeeb/Support correct?

Slow/Dia/Bio/ect. and Refresh/Haste/Regain/ect.


I need help, I want to know if this is a good order to cast spells?

I'm a level 50 Redmage/ 25 BlackMage


Lets say I'm in a Party with;






(1st cast)|| (2nd cast)|| (3rd cast)|| (4th cast)

Rdm/Blm (1st)Refresh || " " "|| " " " "|| " "


Whm/Smn " " "|| " " "|| " " "|| (1st)Refresh


Blm/Whm " " "|| " " "|| (1st)Refresh|| " " "


Thf/Nin " " "|| (3rd)Haste|| " " "|| " " "


Mnk/War (3rd)Haste|| " " "|| (2nd)Regain|| " " "


Pld/War (2nd)Regain|| (1st)Refresh|| (3rd)Haste|| " " "


Mob " " "|| (2nd)Slow|| " " "|| (2nd)DiaII (3rd) BioII



>>Edit<< (1st cast) Refresh=RDM, Regain=PLD, Haste=MNK
(2nd cast) Refresh=PLD, Slow=Mob, Haste=THF
(3rd cast) Refresh=BLM, Regain=MNK, Haste=PLD
(4th cast) Refesh=WHM, DiaII=Mob, BioII=Mob


Then start all over again, but with different Enfeeb on the Mob.
Do you see an error in the way I cast?
If so, can you please help!

Thank!


Oh, one more thing;
WhiteMages get Regain and Regain II right?
If so, why don't they ever cast it?
Is it just the WHM's I have been in a Party with?

[Jei]

top priority - silence the mages, sleep the links, and dispel spikes/defense buff.

Spells to keep track of - refresh. Start refreshing from yourself. Then when it's ready, refresh PLD, then other mages. If you have Drk, add him to your cycle when his MP reaches a certain point. I refresh them when they reach 60-70%MP

Normally between each refresh you'll be able to cast around 2 spells. That's a good time for other enfeeble or haste if you have to.

Enfeebles to use - slow paralyze gravity. If you have ninja, he may want to do the slow/paralyze for hate. Ask him first. Gravity is good to throw in at the beginning of the fight. It helps not only with accuracy but when mages got aggro the tanks will have more time before it reaches the mages.

Haste - tanks first. PLD, Nin, they can really use haste.
Then any DD if you feel like it. Up to you.

[kiffkin]

I'm not at the Refresh stage yet so I can't really comment on the setup. Just wanted to say that when I'm main healing (or soloing), I use Regen a lot. I've noticed that many main healers don't though, possibly as people may not be aware of the mana efficiency. Also, there's an annoying tendancy for me to cast Regen on someone, only for someone else to throw a high Cure on them. Fair enough if they're tanking and in trouble but it's annoying when it's for someone who's not in any particular danger.

Incidentally, are you casting both DiaII and BioII, or is that just a one or the other depending on the mob thing? On the off chance that you are, Dia and Bio don't stack, with BioII>DiaII>Bio>Dia (i.e. a higher spell will overwrite a lower one).

[Aeni]

What I normally do is similar to what Jei outlined above.

(1) Against spellcasting mobs, cast Silence first.
(2) Against spellcasting mobs, follow with dispel.
(3) Repeat (2) as necessary, as mob may have multiple buffs.
(4) Tank is hasted first.
(5) If there's a NIN tank, cast Slow first. Follow up with Paralyze if NIN gets resisted or if he/she doesn't bother casting ninjutsu.
(6) Slowly make your rounds with refresh and haste, keeping enfeebling up and provide emergency healing where applicable.
(7) Magic bursting/nuking is last priority. Only do so if the situation warrants it.

On Dia and Bio. Most parties want Dia up only. Do not overwrite Dia! If you see the BLM or DRK in PT just spamming Bio against party's wishes, please let them know to refrain from doing so. Vast majority do not know that Bio II > Dia II > Bio > Dia. This goes true with JP parties, except you may have a difficult time conveying your point across.

[Patchinko]

(4th cast) Refesh=WHM, DiaII=Mob, BioII=Mob
Do not cast Bio II after casting Dia II. Do not use Bio II at all unless the mob has exceptionally high attack and you have a PLD or WAR tanking or your PT is lacking melee DPS. As someone else said, Bio II overwrites Dia II, but Dia II is more valuable in a melee-heavy PT because it reduces mob defense.

Oh, one more thing;
WhiteMages get Regain and Regain II right?
If so, why don't they ever cast it?
Is it just the WHM's I have been in a Party with?
Yes, it's the WHM you've been in PT with. Some do not seem to know how useful it is, or prefer instant gratification over efficiency. In my opinion, for healing DD or mages who temporarily pull aggro and get hit once or twice but are not in danger of dying any time soon, Regen is a more mana conservative way of healing them.

It saddens me that we RDM are not able to use Regen II or Regen III.

Double Post Edited:
Oh, the Bio/Dia thing has only been said three times now, somebody else say it!＾＾；

[zagex]

In terms of haste, I'll haste the tank after I refresh myself. Haste lasts a little bit longer than refresh, so for the tank, he'll pretty much always have haste. Then I continue refreshing or doing whatever else, athough silence is number 1 priority if it's needed.
As for the rest of the hastes, I'll let it wear off and recast it once I see the message. Those few seconds of not having haste for a DD aren't going to make or break anything, whereas for a Nin, they might be casting utsu:ni during those couple seconds.
That's my thinking.

And for Whitemages and regen 2 and 3, I wish all whitemages would cast those, but sadly only some of them do. I remember one Whm who didn't even use a light staff (I think she also didn't have a dark staff) though I remember seeing some equip worth well more than a light staff, and far less useful. /sigh. Those pts were bad with that whm. (I think there were 2 or 3 spaced out... I kept forgetting the name, though it'd sound familiar) Kept running out of mp and didn't bother resting much in the middle of fights.:vent:

[samarium]

I've been using Regen every single party since level 21. Even though it became near useless once you started getting near 40, 150 hp for 15 mp can't be beat. Needless to say, level 46 was an extremely happy one for me, and Regen II ftw!

It's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I've been levelling whm with my wife (she's rdm), I can tell you what she does that works very well.

She just lets refresh take a back seat to enfeebles and Dispel. Weakening the mob saves much more MP than refresh restores - rdm is an enfeebler first, a burst nuker/backup healer second, and a refresher third, although most parties don't understand this.

Her refresh order: self > PLD > mages > magic-using DDs (DRK & BLU).

-sam

[Aeni]

She just lets refresh take a back seat to enfeebles and Dispel. Weakening the mob saves much more MP than refresh restores - rdm is an enfeebler first, a burst nuker/backup healer second, and a refresher third, although most parties don't understand this.

In the early levels, most RDMs get picked up for backup healing (Occasionally as main healer) No one needs enfeebling (I've been in Dune parties before raking in a level every 40 min so so without power leveling and without enfeebling either) and nuking is left to BLMs even at those levels.

Moving on to your 20s and 30s, you're still the stanby healer with the occasional nuking and sometimes meleeing.

30s is when people finally get around to needing "enfeebling" aka Dispel. Many tasty exp mobs needed to be dispelled and that's why they asked you to join their PT.

After 41, let's not kid ourselves. The only real reason most PT leaders will get a RDM is for refresh. Once a BRD gets Ballads I & II, people will usually go for the BRD instead of the RDM (MP Efficacy as well as Lullaby for adds and all the stat boosting songs that every melee loves) No one sees a RDM and go, "great, we got a nuker!"

Once you have gotten this far (60s) you'll see the progression to priorities as I've outlined, where your wife won't be able to do much for her PTs if she continues to view nuking more important than taking care of her party members.

[kiffkin]

In the early levels, most RDMs get picked up for backup healing (Occasionally as main healer) No one needs enfeebling (I've been in Dune parties before raking in a level every 40 min so so without power leveling and without enfeebling either) and nuking is left to BLMs even at those levels.
Dia/Bio, Paralyze and Slow at the very least should be used every fight. I've been in parties at these levels with RDMs who won't enfeeble and I'd generally get more xp soloing.

In fact I have got more xp soloing.

With WHM.

[Bishop]

Definitely paralyze. Seriously, paralyze is SO effective from the lvl u get it, all the way to 75. It completely negates a whole attack/magic spell, and it does it quite often too. Same with slow. Both low lvl spells that you should be using the day u get them.

[Ice Agent]

besides the point but why the heck is magic so damn expenesive especially cure II... i mean im walking around with cure all the time... and not only that but why are potions so high but where can i buy them

[zagex]

There's a magic store in port windurst, bastok markets (scribery), and port sandoria. Should be pretty cheap there. I'm guessing you're looking at the auction house and seeing it's expensive there?

[Mhurron]

besides the point but why the heck is magic so damn expenesive especially cure II... i mean im walking around with cure all the time... and not only that but why are potions so high but where can i buy them
Venturing of topic but few spells are really expensive, and Cure 2 sells for 598 - 676 gil according to Somepage. You just need to find something good to farm up and sell. Beehive chips and sleepshrooms are good to start with, and when you get to around lvl 12, Silk threads from Crawlers. You can also take up fishing which is a great way to make gil at low levels with no risk.

Potions, and all consumables on the other hand can be expensive and for EXP situations are really not worth it. They are used mainly for BCNM battle type situations.

[samarium]

Once you have gotten this far (60s) you'll see the progression to priorities as I've outlined, where your wife won't be able to do much for her PTs if she continues to view nuking more important than taking care of her party members.

I think you may have misunderstood my point! She doesn't full-out nuke, she Magic Bursts. Missing a burst 'cause of Refresh will only make battles take longer, which defeats the purpose of Refresh in the first place.

But Enfeebling definitely comes first, I have no question of that. Paralyze saves the ninja a shadow, and it saves the tank 50-100 HP. Slow, over the course of a battle, saves hundreds of HP and tons of my MP as well. Blind can nullify attacks like Paralyze can, and stuff like Bio, in the case of a PLD, saves the both of us MP. Silence... do I even need to outline for you what Silence can do for us?

The MP conservation provided by RDM extends FAR beyond Refresh.

If someone complains 'cause they're missing Refresh for OMG 5 SECONDZ REFRESH PLZ they get /pcmd kicked for being whiny little punks. :evil:

-sam

P.S.
Venturing of topic but few spells are really expensive, and Cure 2 sells for 598 - 676 gil according to Somepage.

Spells vendors are cheaper than the AH literally 99% of the time. Spells are totally INSANE on my server - Invisible, that scroll that drops from tier 2 gobs, is currently selling for 60k. 60k!!!

[Aeni]

I think you may have misunderstood my point! She doesn't full-out nuke, she Magic Bursts. Missing a burst 'cause of Refresh will only make battles take longer, which defeats the purpose of Refresh in the first place.

It's all situational. Should I miss the burst and cast Cure IV on the NIN tank who has 100 hp left or should I go for the MB? However, priorities are priorities and MB is dead last in most instances.

[Mhurron]

Should I miss the burst and cast Cure IV on the NIN tank who has 100 hp left or should I go for the MB?
Go for the burst. :evil:

[Icemage]

Magic Burst is near the bottom of my priority list as RDM.

In order of priority:
Sleep/Sleep II on any link
Cure on any party member in red HP
Silence on any spellcaster
Blink on self (when any linked enemies are Asleep)
Dispel on any non-Berserk-type enemy buff
Refresh on primary MP users (Me, PLD, WHM, SMN, BLU, BLM)
Mage's Ballad on MP users (when /BRD)
Haste on Ninjas, and Paladins tanking enemies with weak Slow attacks
Slow, Paralyze, Dia II on enemies with >25% HP
Magic Burst if MP reserves allow
Refresh on secondary MP users who are low (BRD, DRK, COR/WHM, etc.)
Regen on myself if below my max HP
Regen on any non-critical damaged party member (when WHM is not present, or sucks)
Advancing March/Sword Madrigal on non-MP user melees (when /BRD)
Haste on non-Ninja melees
Stoneskin on self (when Convert timer is within 2 minutes)
Blind, Gravity, Elemental enfeebles (when /BLM)

Notice how low on my priority list Magic Bursts are, and I'll only do that in parties where I think I can spend the extra MP - a rare case even as a Taru RDM, since I add much more damage by casting Haste on melees than on inconsistent MBs.


Icemage

[Patchinko]

It's all situational.

Most important point in regards to magic bursting, I think.

Is magic bursting worth it? Absolutely... if it isn't a detriment to your available MP and isn't getting in the way of a clutch heal, then it's a significant chunk of damage, especially if paired with the right elemental staff, INT gear and some elemental skill/magic attack+ gear.

But, often if I'm the main healer in a PT I just don't have the time or resources to magic burst. Then again, if we have a WHM along, I can almost always do it. It's all situational.＾＾

[Tomatoes]

I static with a PLD. Backline consists of me and a BLM. I've been dispelling Berserk, as well as applying Bio instead of Dia (when the BLM isn't doing it). I feel like this saves more MP in the long run by having to cure less. I'm considering switching to Dia in future battles, but we kill quickly as it is, so.. I dunno...

[TheGrandMom]

I've been dispelling Berserk, ...

See now thats iffy. Some people prefer you leave Berserk up on a mob because they take more dmg when its up and then some scream at you to Dispel it. I won't Dispel it unless asked or I will ask what they prefer me to do in a pt. It's nice when you have a static though because you don't have to ask over and over in each new pt!

[samarium]

See now thats iffy. Some people prefer you leave Berserk up on a mob because they take more dmg when its up and then some scream at you to Dispel it. I won't Dispel it unless asked or I will ask what they prefer me to do in a pt. It's nice when you have a static though because you don't have to ask over and over in each new pt!

I think (If I were a RDM) I would Dispel it if we had a PLD tank, and leave it up if we had a NIN.

In any case!

Go for the burst. :evil:

Darn skippy.

Uppity ninjas!

She doesn't have to make that choice - Burst or Cure - because I'm a WHM.

If you're invited to a party as a main healer, then you should adjust your priorities accordingly, but after 41 it's unlikely you'll be invited as such. I'll stick with my original thesis - debuff, burst/backup heal, refresh. Once you get Refresh up the first time in a party, you'll just keep going around the circle anyway, at most they'll be without it for a couple seconds while you re-stick your debuffs or Magic Burst. They'll live.

-sam

[Patchinko]

Actually, RDM is often invited as main healer in PTs late into the game. In fact, RDM is often preferred in many PTs because the healing burden is low in many camps and they speed up the fights more than a WHM does. Of my last five parties, only one has had a WHM. The others all had one or two RDM as the main healer(s)!

[Mhurron]

I think (If I were a RDM) I would Dispel it if we had a PLD tank, and leave it up if we had a NIN.This is usually what I'm asked to do.

If you're invited to a party as a main healer, then you should adjust your priorities accordingly, but after 41 it's unlikely you'll be invited as such.Once BRD gets Mage's Ballad 2 a RDM - BRD party will pretty much be a lot faster then a party with a WHM in it. I personally did 60-65 almost exclusively being invited as a main healer (RDM) and that was some of the fastest leveling I've done. Oddly enough, I also had less to do.

I'll stick with my original thesis - debuff, burst/backup heal, refresh. Once you get Refresh up the first time in a party, you'll just keep going around the circle anyway, at most they'll be without it for a couple seconds while you re-stick your debuffs or Magic Burst. They'll live.

-samDespite my preference to kill NINs, I never even tried hitting a MB until somewhere around 65, because it was around then that I was comfortable expending the MP to do it as opposed to holding on to it just in case. Resting for MP, even if it's only one or two ticks, should probably take priority. If you are watching the Convert counter because you don't know if you're going to have enough MP to make it till then, then you do not have the MP to do a MB.

[Icemage]

If you are watching the Convert counter because you don't know if you're going to have enough MP to make it till then, then you do not have the MP to do a MB.

Hah. I'm checking my convert timer pretty often once I hit the 5 minute mark so I can ration my MP usage. Even as a Taru RDM with pretty good gear and getting 1000+ MP per Convert, it is rare for me to have the spare MP left over to magic burst with because I'd much rather spend it doing something more productive.

It's a bit easier with a WHM in the party, since I don't have to shell out large chunks of MP for Cure III and Cure IV all the time, but I still prefer to play solid backup healing and split enmity with the WHM rather than add minor amounts of damage with a magic burst (and I say that even with access to every RDM nuke except for Thunder III, at level 73).

Really the only time I ever really get into magic bursting on a semi-regular basis is with a RDM + BRD or COR + other healer setup (BLU/WHM, WHM/xxx, SMN/WHM), where I have significant amounts of additional MP recovery.


Icemage

[Patchinko]

Strange, because as a Taru RDM with pretty good gear getting around 800MP per Convert, it's rare for me to have such spare MP that I can't MB at pretty much every renkei.＾＾ Unless I'm in a poorly formed PT where I'm the only healer or we have a warrior tank or something, I'm really not seeing these MP issues at all.

It may be related to the Eruca in the new zones being such easy XP mobs at this level, though I also had no problems in Bibiki Bay recently either.

Regardless, I don't really experience these major MP issues, and I don't consider over 300 damage to be a waste of MP at this level, given that it doesn't interfere with my other duties.

Whatever the case, I don't think a general rule of abstaining from magic bursting is very good. In my opinion, part of being a RDM is magic bursting. Feel free to disagree, but given the significant return after casting a magic burst, unless it's overkilling or causing you to run out of MP prematurely, I think not doing it is missing out on one of the many things that make RDMs valuable to a PT.

[samarium]

OK, looks like I'm approaching dangerous territory, haha.

I'll just say that my li'l order of spells is meant for general advice and not to be used in every party as a cookie-cutter performance template. In your standard tank-melee-melee-nuker-healer-RDM party it works fine, but many people nowadays like to use non-standard party formats and as such it should be adjusted to focus on whatever it is the party wants you to do.

If you're invited to main heal, well then that's what takes first priority obviously. Keeping debuffs and refresh up will fit into the cracks between heals/nukes/whatever.

Personally I think an ounce of Enfeeble is worth a pound of cure (cliche alert), having been witness to a thousand Paralyzed mob WSes and interrupt-free Utsusemi recasts thanks to the combination of Slow and Blind. Having your mob miss your ninja with 20 MP worth of debuffs will save ~92 MP worth of Cure.

If I miss 3 ticks of Refresh so the RDM can re-stick enfeebles, I've lost 9 mp but saved 90.

-sam

[arkaine23]

Everything you do is pretty much between refreshes. Delaying a refresh is not really a big deal though, so don't fret if you lose 10 seconds here or there because something else took priority. Two spells as mentioned usually fit perfectly between refresh casts. And at the start of the fight it'll be enfeebles, while further into the fight it will be cures or hastes or enfeeble recasts.

Things that usurp priority from this general cycle:
1)The need to dispel a mob buff. (Some mobs are extensively pre-buffed)
2)The need to silence a mage enemy.
3)The need to sleep a link, or if its dark resistant, bind/gravity to otherwise occupy it while your party kills the first enemy.
4)A cure bomb to save someone's life.
5)A magic burst.

You'll find ninjas will steal some of your enfeebles because they need the hate. Watch what they cast so you can skip it from your own cycle. I.E. If they're doing slow and blind, consistantly, then you'd handle dia, paralyze, gravity, and maybe poison II. If kill speed is very fast because your party is chaining T-VT-low IT, then enfeebles may not be worth your time and mp, and hasting/regening might be more significant uses for your mp.

Regen is incredibly efficient, don't underestimate it even when you're level 75. You might get overwritten by a white mage's superior regens, but its only 15mp, hardly a loss compared to say dropping a cure III. Still, you'll need to cure bomb now and then to save lives. And in some parties you'll be playing the role of a white mage. Don't cure paladins too much because they need to cure themselves for hate also. Be mindful of how the other mages in your party manage their mp. You have an advantage over them in your convert, which means you should do more with your MP since you can count on instant mp recovery every 10 minutes.

Haste is really something to discuss with the white mage/other red mage. Ninja tanks need it more than anybody else, it will also help paladins have a faster flash recast. It can actually cause problems for some DD's if they happen to be higher level or have superior gear comapred to the other attackers and tank. There are other cicumstances such as burn parties at endgame, where everyone physically attacking the mob should have it. Otherwise I consider it more useful to balance tp gain between SC partners and to put the tank a notch above the other attackers and have faster recasts.


Nuking.... After level 30 and before level 75 with elemental merits and elemental skill/magic acc gear, free nukes don't work so well. Drain however is a very efficient nuke against non dark-resistant enemies. It's only 21 mp and can be cast about every 40-45 seconds or so. Likewise Aspir is going to be your best friend the day you can slap on some dark skill and magic acc gear and get consistent 40-110 mp per cast. The magic burst of course is fun and speeds kills. Sometimes however you may notice the skillchain kills the mob, or the black mage's burst is more than sufficient. Try not to waste your mp if your Magic burst damage is not really needed or if you don't have the mp to spare. Nuking can change somewhat at endgame given we have better gear and merits available that can provide more skill and accuracy to our weaker schools of magic and more mp. I find I have the mp to free nuke often in quite a few different events, and do so quite decently in most situations.

[Sepa]

Thank you all for your advice,
the thing about Refresh is, as soon as it wears off, you get a /tell from party
members saying, "Refresh," or, "Refresh ran out."

It seems the alway seem to forget that I need Refresh too; if I don't have any MP, how can cast Refresh on them. Common sense, but I guess not to all people.

And if you go to cast Slow first, the Mages get mad, and send you another /tell saying,
"Refresh," or, "I need Refresh"

And vice versa, you got to cast Refresh on the Mages and the Refresh and the Tanks and DD
/party "Slow, Dispel, Dia II, Silence"

But oh well, I'm not trying to bash on people; I guess hearing that comes with the job.
And I love my job, it seems like RedMage is the only Mage that can cast throughout the whole battle.

But anyway, thank you all for the advice!!!

[Murphie]

I've personally never harassed a RDM for referesh right away, but I've definitely seen it happen.

[Sepa]

With the spell Sleep,
Wouldn't that be better if the BlackMage put the link to sleep?

Well because no matter how high my Int is, the BlackMage's Int will always be higher.
And because the BlackMage's Int is higher, is there a better chance of Sleep sticking to the mob, and it lasting longer?

It seems every time I cast Sleep, Sleep II, I only get hate.

[Raydeus]

With the spell Sleep,
Wouldn't that be better if the BlackMage put the link to sleep?

Well because no matter how high my Int is, the BlackMage's Int will always be higher.
And because the BlackMage's Int is higher, is there a better chance of Sleep sticking to the mob, and it lasting longer?

It seems every time I cast Sleep, Sleep II, I only get hate.

Nope, because even though Sleep is enhanced by high INT, what matters the most at the time of landing it is Enfeebling skill, and RDM has way higher skill than any other job.

Edit> oh and about hate you can easily blink and stoneskin while the mob is asleep to buy some time to land the next sleep, but your tank has to voke the mob too to get some hate off you.

[Sepa]

Hmm....
Would the Sleep stick better if I switched to +Int gear before I cast it?
Or just cast Sleep twice?

And would it be better to cast Sleep, the Sleep II on the Link?

Double Post Edited:
Most times people don't see the Mage's ask or demand for Refresh,
because they always {well at least for me they do} send you a /tell for it.

They don't send it to the Party.

[Murphie]

It's a good idea to swap in gear that relates to the spell you're casting, yeah. So I'd swap in INT gear and Enfeebling + gear (if you have it).

[Raydeus]

Hmm....
Would the Sleep stick better if I switched to +Int gear before I cast it?
Or just cast Sleep twice?

And would it be better to cast Sleep, the Sleep II on the Link?

Yep, it's a good idea to add +int gear in your sleep macro (the more the better), and if you can land Sleep first and then Sleep II before the mob awakes you'll buy your party and yourself a lot of time,

[Aeni]

Nope, because even though Sleep is enhanced by high INT, what matters the most at the time of landing it is Enfeebling skill, and RDM has way higher skill than any other job.

Edit> oh and about hate you can easily blink and stoneskin while the mob is asleep to buy some time to land the next sleep, but your tank has to voke the mob too to get some hate off you.

Generally, I'd agree with you, but in my past few PTs, BLMs would always be able to stick sleep better than me and have it last even longer. One theory is that their hidden +macc/matk bonus somehow effects sleep duration and how well it sticks. Even if enfeebling drives it, it seems that BLMs on the average can cast sleep better.

I even had one instance where my DRK was able to sleep an IT once with crappy enfeebling whereas this RDM got resisted, even with capped enfeebling and subbing BLM. So I'm beginning to wonder if dark skill doesn't come into the picture as well either *ponders*

[Raydeus]

So I'm beginning to wonder if dark skill doesn't come into the picture as well either *ponders*

Hmm... how much +INT do you have when you cast? At lvl 60 I had around +20-25 INT on every cast thanks to equip macros and dark staff, and I almost never got resisted.

Edit> (I'm a hume)

[Icemage]

Sleep spells are Enfeebling, not Dark. DRKs I party with generally can't stick Sleep to save their lives except against enemies that are weak to dark elemental magic (Crawlers).

The only time BLMs do better at landing Sleep II than I do as RDM is when they're using Elemental Seal.


Icemage

[Tomatoes]

Generally, I'd agree with you, but in my past few PTs, BLMs would always be able to stick sleep better than me and have it last even longer. One theory is that their hidden +macc/matk bonus somehow effects sleep duration and how well it sticks. Even if enfeebling drives it, it seems that BLMs on the average can cast sleep better.

I even had one instance where my DRK was able to sleep an IT once with crappy enfeebling whereas this RDM got resisted, even with capped enfeebling and subbing BLM. So I'm beginning to wonder if dark skill doesn't come into the picture as well either *ponders*

What level was this? Also, is there a correlation between Sleep length and Enf.skill and/or INT? Last I heard it was a set length for the most part (assuming no resist). I feel your memory might be leading you to some dubious conclusions, which anecdotal evidence is prone to. Are you sure you didn't leave your Light/Apollo on by accident?

[Aeni]

Well, sleep doesn't last a set duration. People have told me before, but I believe it's due to resistivity. If sleep is unresisted, it can last a while. From there, I think sleep is pretty much similar to all other elemental spells, where duration is halved with each level of resistance (1/2 as long, 1/4 as long, 1/8 as long, etc.) What the duration should be is anyone's guess, since you can up that with ES, but ES only makes things stick, not sure whether or not it "extends" duration.

When I casted Sleep, it was on an IT Alastor way back when in Bibiki Bay. Enfeebling of only 80sh at the time. Sheer dumb luck? I thought so, until I casted Sleep II on it and THAT stuck as well >.> No swapping in spellcasting equipment on my DRK either (What idiot DRK would swap in a staff anyway during a fight, losing TP, just for casting spells?)

As for my RDM, I can get sleep to stick 95% of the time with ES. Sleepga works better than Sleep and Sleep II is best, but I notice not as consistent either. But, from what I've seen, BLMs can get Sleep to stick here, there and everywhere unless we're fighting mobs that would normally be resistant to sleep (Skellies come to mind)

[Tomatoes]

I've read that Sleep does have a set time, specifically that Sleep II caps at 1:30? Not 100% on this though, might as well go test this out when I get the chance this weekend.

And yes, I realize resistances affect sleep, but I didn't think it worked in quarters; rather it's full/half/none as far as I know. (Assuming the mob hasn't built up resistance from being slept previously.)

What I was asking, wasn't Sleep Length::Resistance ratio, but rather Sleep Length::INT ratio. Is there a quantifiable amount? i.e. difference between player INT and mob's MND (or is it INT) translating to x amount of seconds. More importantly, does INT translate to higher accuracy? Which I don't believe it does. I'm not quite sure what you are referring to with regards to BLM's "hidden +macc/matk bonus." I've never heard that before.

I've subbed /whm for the majority of my RDM playing and I've never felt ES was a necessity to land Sleep.

[Karinya]

Strange, because as a Taru RDM with pretty good gear getting around 800MP per Convert, it's rare for me to have such spare MP that I can't MB at pretty much every renkei.＾＾ Unless I'm in a poorly formed PT where I'm the only healer or we have a warrior tank or something, I'm really not seeing these MP issues at all.
Yeah, I agree. I don't know what Icemage is spending all that MP on. In my usual static of NIN, MNK, MNK, THF, WHM, RDM, I have 2 refresh, 2 haste, enfeebles (silence, dispel, gravity, whatever the NIN doesn't cast or gets resisted at), and a little backup healing. (The WHM has no trouble doing 90% of the healing and the other 2 hastes, and Dia for skillup, with just refresh + AF2 body and resting when possible. Generally our chains are limited only by the availability of monsters and distance they have to travel to reach the party.) What else would I do with the rest of my MP?
Regardless, I don't really experience these major MP issues, and I don't consider over 300 damage to be a waste of MP at this level, given that it doesn't interfere with my other duties.
For the benefit of those who haven't tried 65+ RDM nuking, I'll point out that 300 is a half resist. I've broken 650 with just NQ staff, moldavite earring and AF2 boots - and that's on demons, which have Magic Defense Bonus. Not bad for a little over 100 MP.
Whatever the case, I don't think a general rule of abstaining from magic bursting is very good. In my opinion, part of being a RDM is magic bursting. Feel free to disagree, but given the significant return after casting a magic burst, unless it's overkilling or causing you to run out of MP prematurely, I think not doing it is missing out on one of the many things that make RDMs valuable to a PT.
I agree. Magic bursting can significantly shorten a fight, and the MP cost of doing so shouldn't be that hard to sustain.

If you *are* having trouble with the MP cost of magic bursts, save them until late in the chain.

[Icemage]

With a WHM present, I usually have MP to magic burst since I'm not main healing. Too bad that I haven't had a WHM in a party for the past 10 levels except once. :P All that extra MP goes straight to Cures, Erase, Regen, Silena, etc.

I'm not really sure why but I see a lot of BLMs in my parties lately. Not that BLMs are bad, but they just don't fit at all in TP burn parties, and it's really starting to aggravate me.

Actually, the one time I had a WHM in a party, I *still* didn't have MP to magic burst, but mostly because the DDs weren't /NIN so it was taking up enormous amounts of MP to keep them healed from both the WHM and myself.


Icemage

[Lasswyn]

I'm about to ding 41, and I *HOPE* to Heaven that I get some better BLM luck next party. I've had two straight nights of "What the heck are you smoking" BLMs, and as a result, I HAD to MB because nobody else would have. Maybe, maybe they would burst 1/4 of the time. Usually, not so much. The rest of their mp was spent on Bio II, Fire II, Blizzard, Bio II (again), Thunder, Fire II, Bio II (yes, again), Blizzard, Thundaga, Bio II (oooo, looky! I did 36 dmg! yaysies!) ....until I just wanted to scream.

Meanwhile, I'm in the back choking and rasping for all I'm worth. And by the end of the one fight, I outdamaged the Taru blm's tier 2 fire, unbursted. Way to wear it out, midget. *clap*

So....anyway....uh, my point? {Hmmm.} Well...maybe it's a good thing that I learned quick n' early to spare some mp for bursting, because if I could main heal, debuff, regen, nuke, burst and all that before even getting Convert, I might just have a better appreciation for conservation later on. We'll find out, I guess.

...but if ONE more blm asks "What does Aspir do?" in CN, I'mma let him Thundaga himself into a wicked big hole in the ground.

[Jei]

It's been a long time since my 75 PT skillchains... but from my experiance, if I MB I would run out of MP sooner than my convert recasts. So I prefer not to MB normally. I run out of MP just about when my convert resets that way.

Anyway not all PT performs the same you know ^^ I've had PT where my MP stays almost full the entire time, and I've had PT where I ran out of MP so fast. The latter case is where I have to be quite conservative about my MP usage.

[Karinya]

Well, that's true. I didn't intend any criticism of Icemage, although it might look that way rereading my post -.-

Certainly, if you're main healing, you may not have time or MP to magic burst as well. Too bad for you that it's *that* common for you.


Lasswyn: It really seems like there are more bad BLMs around lately than before. I think public perception that BLMs are soooo strong makes people go for BLM without being interested enough in the job to learn how it works. BLM really is strong, but not if you're *that* much of an idiot about it.

All mage jobs in this game are at least somewhat technical, and that means to be effective in them, you have to *know the mechanics*. Not all of them are as complex as RDM or BRD, but you at least have to have the brains not to cast Waterga II on a crab.

[nazlfrag]

Then theres the blackmage who bursts too well.. I always get on edge when the little taru next to me gets hit once for half his life, even with stoneskin up...

It seems this is the central issue you deal with as a redmage, what to cast and when. This brings the true elegance of our fast cast and chainspell abilities to the fore. Our flexibility is our greatest asset, and it is rare we perform the same from one party to the next. Each party has its own what and when to cast spells, primarialy dependant on the other mages in the party but also heavily on the tank, support and the mobs you are fighting.

Regular debuffs: Dia or Bio, Paralyze, Slow, Blind - These are typically cast and recast when worn. Dia is used most of the time, if your party is taking a walloping you can always overwrite with Bio. Other jobs can take over for these, as detailed below.
Elemental debuffs: Frost+Drown+Rasp = AGI,STR,DEX down, or Choke+Burn+Shock = VIT,INT,MND down. Frost+Shock, Rasp+Burn and Choke+Drown are also valid combos. You might be casting these if there is no black mage. Frost+Shock is a good combo, AGI down for the melees and MND down for your enfeebles.
Other debuffs: Sleep, Gravity, Bind - These are mainly used for link control. Gravity can be used if your melees are missing often, but it is hard to stick and has a long recast timer. Frost works better for this.
Specific jobs:
PLD - Always first priority refresh, they can't do their job without MP. Their enfeeble is Flash which we don't get, it is a light-based blindness. You can have both effects on a mob, so keep casting Blind for a double-blind! Watch out for silence on the paladin.
NIN - Their power is in their shadows, so Haste on the NIN and Slow on the mob is first priority. If they are silenced, stop everything and cure it (if you can). They use paralyze, blind, slow themselves to gain hate, so you need to co-ordinate on these spells.
WAR - (or other tank) Bio is very useful here, as damage output shouldn't be a problem. Keep them hasted and regen/cure more often than for a pld or nin.
BRD - A bard has many useful abilities, the main duty they take over from us is link control.
BLM - A black mage can cast the elemental enfeebles stronger than us, so encourage them to. They can't blind as well and like to cast bio, so try to discourage them from this.
WHM - White mages can't enfeeble as well - no native ability. Their natural high mind helps with paralyze and slow, but the same applies doubly to you. The good thing about a whm in the party is you can concentrate on enfeebling. Always cure them if they get hate.
SMN - A summoner and a redmage work well together. Summoners are often placed into main healer role, which is crazy seeing that they do this solely from their subjob. You are a natural healer, so let the summoner play backup heal for once, and tell them to DD. You won't be disappointed, as most summoners are expert healers, and itching to DD, and tend to excel at both.
COR = Zero downtime. Evoker's roll can be as much as 3mp/tick additional refresh. I am in awe of COR.

Additional spells for Mobs:
Crabs - Dia, Barwatera, Dispel - Scissor Guard top priority
Crawlers - Dia, Poisona, Dispel - Coccon top priority
Pugils - Bio, Barwatera
Flys - Bio, Barwatera, Poisona
Goblin Melee - Bio, Barfira
Goblin Mages - Dia, Silence, Barfira, Dispel - Protect/Shell/Spikes top priority
Worms - Dia, Barstonra, Silence
Beetles - Dia, Dispel buffs
Dhalmels - Dia, Silena
Undead Melee - Dia, Cursna
Undead Mages -Dia, Silence, Dispel buffs
Mandragora - Bio, Barsleepra

For those times I mentioned a status-cure, the bar-status spell (eg. Barpoisonra) are also useful. When I mention Bio its usually on mobs with nasty tp moves. The general rule is to start with Dia, switch to Bio if your melees are taking too much damage.

This is not set in stone, its just some observations I have made. I think this is the central question a redmage asks in battle.. what to cast next? You get in a rythym, and something always breaks it. It takes adaptability, quick thinking and a cool head to do this well. Personally I /panic too much ^^ gotta keep it cool...