Red Mage and The Bow

[Balfree]

Is there any way a Red Mage could carry a ranged weapon, and help the party with it?

Theres the new Jaridah set, every piece gives ranged ACC, and attack power.

Red mage with elemental arrows (does en-spell work with ranged attacks?), would it be viable at all?

When i'm not refreshing, hasting, curing, dispelling, nuking or enfeebling, what am i doing standing around if im not doing anything?

Often as RDM, i find myself in a party with a second refresher, in this situation, even though im probably main-healing, i very often have dull moments where im not doing anything, and im better of standing up than sitting down incase the tank suffers a large ammount of damage, if its a PLD, he can cure himself most of the time (2 refreshers + his own refresh...), if its a NIN, unless he sucks butt, barely any curing will be necessary...

So anyway, with the new gear in mind, through big EQ macro changes.. what is the possibility of a RDM using a bow in the back row? I'm sure it wouldnt be a huge improvement to parties, but... think of what you can achieve: if RDM manages to get enough TP... he can actually help get a second skillchain, or even just contribute to the damage outputs, and i speak of this not knowing many things:

RDMs ranged attack ranking with bows.
Bows avaliable to RDMs.
Arrows avaliable to RDMs.
Natural ranged-acc of RDMs.
What ranged WS's RDM gets.

ps. Also in regular PTs, if im not main healing, and i have a WHM healing the tank, all ill do is help with hasting a couple DD, refresh some people, and enfeeble, usually i dont nuke alot in these type of parties, simply because i need the MP, however, i could fit in some ranged attacks... i could perhaps make up for that flaw.

[arkaine23]

RDM has a D rank in the use of bows. There's plenty of range acc and range atk gear available to red mage, and we can use short bows. However, we will not consistantly hit an IT mob. In fact VT might be a stretch... Also we will not have any ranged weapon skills unless we /rng. RDM/RNG can get Sidewinder however, and it can be killer in Balista if you pop off a Sharp Shot beforehand so that distance to target doesn't affect accuracy and you can hit one of the 5 peeople trying to take you down for 1k.

[Jei]

I haven't tried elemental arrows in parties but I have tried to shoot normal arrows before. Our accuracy is really bad. And when the arrows do hit, they do very little damage because of our low skill.
En spells don't work with range weapons. And we get no WS without /rng. But we can use sidewinder with /rng. That is pretty much all I know.

Bows and arrows offer a safe pulling method in places like Ifrit's and sky.

[nanatsu]

Standing there and shooting an arrow takes time just like kneeling down and standing up would. If you can't get up in time to save your tank when he's taking huge damage, then you're not going to fare much better trying to break out of the shooting animation of a bow and arrow in time to do anything about it. You can't do anything while shooting and it takes about as much time to kneel and get up as it does to shoot. So if you're worried about doing something while main healing that won't interrupt your oppurtunities to heal, then shooting a bow and arrow isn't the answer.

[ikkleste]

doesn't this basically come under the same argument as the meleeing rdm?... the only difference being you are out of range of any AOE attacks (not an issue with some mobs. People will say no because a) you will give the mob TP, for very little acual damage. b) you will be missing out on precious dark staff moments. c) to effectivly shoot arrows you'd have to gear up accordingly which is going to mean you aren't optimised for spell casting.

note i don't necessarily aggree with the above points. but these are the arguements you will see if you attempt to statrt shooting. However given our small range of bows, our D rating, if you were going to do this i can't see why, unless the mob has a nast AoE you'd rather stand and shoot than pull out your sword, cast an enspell and start swinging. You'll be faced with the same arguments but will probably do more damage with a sword or dagger at least.

good luck anyway :thumbsup:

[Raydeus]

Up to lvl 40 (maybe 50+ if you have good +racc gear like a Peacock charm/amulet) RDM can hit mobs well if they swap +AGI gear for their ranged attacks. The difference in skill at lvl 40 would be RNG 123 (A-), SAM 114 (C+) and RDM 109 (D).

Every skill point equals +1 r.acc and +1 r.att, so if you have good gear those 14 points of difference wont affect you much, the thing is we dont get access to Archer knives, and those +10 r.acc (or +20 if you are /nin) are very useful for hitting IT mobs constantly until more +r.acc gear is aviable, and also we only get access to weak short bows so don't expect to do much dmg with them.

After lvl 60 the difference between skill ratings is just too much so any weapon with a skill rating lower than B- is pretty useless in a xp situation, by then you wont hit much with your ranged attacks and only waste time that would be much better used resting mp.

The skill difference at lvl 60 would be RNG 203, SAM 190, RDM 183 but after lvl 50 the mobs start getting massive defense and evasion boosts which make it very hard for a RDM to hit them unless you have full +r.acc gear

And, if you add to all the mnd, int and mp gear you need plus elemental staves there's no way you can carry enough items in your inventory to make your range attacks worth it without hurting your mage duties.

At lvl 75 skill ratings go like this: RNG 269, SAM 230, RDM 210 I don't think I need to say anything more about this heheh.


I hope this info was useful, I wanna add that I love using bows but only for recreational purposes, specially after the distance/acc change. A soloing RDM will always be too close to the target so the skill rating plus the acc penalty will make ranged attacks pretty useless unless you are fighting too weak mobs.

[Balfree]

Completely forgot that you cant use ranged WS unless you sub RNG... that alone makes it useless and then some

Wishful thinking + Work distraction = n00bification

[Raydeus]

Well don't dismiss bow's DoT so fast, even without ws you can do decent DoT if you have a good bow and arrows. Plus is not like you would have the TP to use ws anyway, with all the mp resting and weapon swaps.

Up to level 40 is doable, but I dunno if its worth all the extra equip change macros and extra items on inventory :worry:

[LoneGamer]

I'd rather pull my B-rank Sword and melee than try to bring a D-rank Archery to a viable level.

[Balfree]

What i was thinking mostly was the elemental damage, even if the arrow itself does 0, the elemental damage kicks in, and with the right staff and gear, it could be nice, but proc rate is never 100% on elemental arrows, or is it? i dunno.

So to contribute to the damage output, you would just need to hit and proc the ele damage...

[LoneGamer]

Beestinger and an Enspell would probably be more reliable. 4 damage, 150 delay.

[DigitalisAkujin]

Although a bow can be effective for damage dealing if you are a red mage with the proper equipment I do not think you would be bringing anything usefull to the XP PT by using a bow to deal damage. I think a red mage should deal damage by magic bursting and using DoTs. As for practical uses for a bow: pulling in burn parties. ^^

[Atma]

I agree with most people, pull out your sword and hit teh monstar, don't try to be an archer because, well, we aren't. I personally LIKE being in melee range (exception, of course, if the monster has a nasty AOE), because it helps me see the animations for the critical "OMGWTFDISPELNOWPRZ" moves.

Here's basically what I tell people:

As long as:
1) Everyone is being refreshed.
2) The monster is being debuffed with at least a) Dia b) Slow c) Para d) Gravity e) Blind
3) The nasty buffs are being dispelled within 5-7 seconds (dispel does have a cast time :P)
4) I'm magic bursting
5) You're not in risk of death
6) I'm not hitting the mob for 0 and giving it tp for free

What I do with my spare 20 seconds of time per fight is my business, and If I choose to spend them trying to keep my sword skill maxed out, that's my business.

RDM is a job designed to never sit down. And in keeping the refresh chain going and casting enfeebles every mob and magic bursting, we don't have time to anyway.

[Raydeus]

What I was thinking mostly was the elemental damage

Hmm, elemental dmg does kick in almost 100% so it's very posible to fire some arrows while you are out of AoE doing your mage duties.

After lvl 51 (staves) or maybe even lvl 41 RDM changes from melee/debuff to debuff/support so it makes sense to think you could help shooting some arrows from a distance, specially with elemental arrows.

However at the lvl elemental arrows are aviable is the time mobs start getting harder to hit due evasion/r.acc stats.

I guess if you have enough room to carry all the extra ranged gear and your skill is high enough getting a few hundred dmg in would be a nice thing to try for a few lvls, sadly due to skill rating issues I doubt you can pull this off beyond lvl 65.


Beestinger and an Enspell would probably be more reliable. 4 damage, 150 delay.

About using your sword or a dagger like hornetneedle beyond lvl 50 all I can say is unless the mob has really crappy TP moves you would be hurting your party giving the mob some fast extra TP (because I doubt you'll be hitting for 0 all the time). Hitting for 1-3 dmg +10 from enspell isnt worth it the 6TP+ you are giving the mob with each swing.

Hornet and Beestinger have one main purpose (specially after Energy Steal/Drain): To completely destroy elementals and magic mobs.

[LoneGamer]

Raydeus, won't a bow and arrow give the mob TP if it hits? Beestinger is more likely to do 0 damage plus enspell than most other weapons in the game, so mob TP gain would be less than shooting it, assuming similar hit rates.

[Patchinko]

Ah, don't remind me about Hornetneedle. Stupid Wespes.

[Icemage]

I can't see this being useful except as a pulling technique in magic-aggro areas after level 51. Elemental add damage is OK, but you'd have to hit to inflict it, and I'd just as soon be wearing a +MP item in the ammo slot to improve my Convert ratio instead (especially at 70+ with Hedgehog Bomb's +30MP).

Note that TP gain is immaterial - just as wielding a sword in an XP party doesn't work well due to the increase in spell potency from switching staves, so too does /RNG not make sense since you'll lose all TP when you swap staves to cast spells.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Raydeus, won't a bow and arrow give the mob TP if it hits?

Yep, but the amount of TP you give the mob vs the dmg you deal is completely different, a hit with a dagger will give the mob 6+ TP and deal 1-3 +5-12 dmg, an elemental arrow would give the mob around 10+ TP and deal 30-50 +20-70 dmg or something like that. So, to make the same amount of dmg with a dagger you would give at least 5 times more TP to the mob.

Even assuming you would hit for 0 half the time you would still be giving the mob more TP, not to mention you would have to be engaged, and with all the gear swaping required to do your job properly half the time you'll be using a staff or a wand rather than the dagger.

Using a bow seems like a good way to get a few hits in while being disengaged at a safe distance and would make it easier for you to cast or rest as needed. All you need is a good bow and enough +r.acc gear, so if you have the inventory space it really seems like a viable way of dealing a bit of dmg.

If it's worth it or not, or if one would rather nuke if there's the extra mp is really up to each RDM.

[Atma]

Yep, but the amount of TP you give the mob vs the dmg you deal is completely different, a hit with a dagger will give the mob 6+ TP and deal 1-3 +5-12 dmg, an elemental arrow would give the mob around 10+ TP and deal 30-50 +20-70 dmg or something like that. So, to make the same amount of dmg with a dagger you would give at least 5 times more TP to the mob.

Even assuming you would hit for 0 half the time you would still be giving the mob more TP, not to mention you would have to be engaged, and with all the gear swaping required to do your job properly half the time you'll be using a staff or a wand rather than the dagger.

Using a bow seems like a good way to get a few hits in while being disengaged at a safe distance and would make it easier for you to cast or rest as needed. All you need is a good bow and enough +r.acc gear, so if you have the inventory space it really seems like a viable way of dealing a bit of dmg.

If it's worth it or not, or if one would rather nuke if there's the extra mp is really up to each RDM.

And what are you going to give up to get this racc? Your electrum/astral rings? that's 40MP. Your holy phial? That's 9MP and +3MND. Your earrings? On average that's another 9-10MP..

It's not like ninjas, rdm can't just swap in gear for damage and then swap back. You really need every single drop of MP to make it from convert to convert.

[Balfree]

Glad I spited some conversation ^^

I'd really love to fire some arrows in battle, is all ^^; but no, i dont want to give extra TP if im not dealing enough damage, i clearly dont know much about meleeing, as i wasnt even aware hitting for 0 would give TP to the mob..

[NeoSuplex]

If there were any Arrows I would shoot, it would be Demons. I was thinking about exactly this a while ago, but more from a soloing perspective.

[Icemage]

Hitting for 0 does not give TP (monster's don't get TP for hitting us for 0 either).

Add effect damage with a 0 damage physical hit does not give TP.

As an RDM if you want to add damage without giving TP, equip a Ceremonial Dagger (DMG:1) and cast an Enspell and whack away. Won't do much, but you aren't hurting anything by it as long as you're doing everything else OK.


Icemage

[Balfree]

Hm, i had the impression someone said 0 dmg would give tp... ._.

Unrelated, but interesting anyway:
Some low lvl bcnms... get a platoon or beestinger + cast en-spell = be the best DD in the fight ^^;

[nanatsu]

Well it did give tp before but SE patched that so you get no TP and no skillups from 0 dmg ^^;

BTW, I still say that shooting a bow and arrow in pt will prevent you from casting right away, same as taking a knee adn trying to rest. :p Like I said before you still can't cast anything during the shooting animation. :O

[Balfree]

Yea thats right, theres really no avoiding it, you should be able though, like... if youre sitting/meleeing/shooting, if you cast a spell, it should have priority and cancel everything you were doing, would be cool if you got up really fast (hop? XD) if you casted while sitting

[Raydeus]

And what are you going to give up to get this racc? Your electrum/astral rings? that's 40MP. Your holy phial? That's 9MP and +3MND. Your earrings? On average that's another 9-10MP..

It's not like ninjas, rdm can't just swap in gear for damage and then swap back. You really need every single drop of MP to make it from convert to convert.

Yes you swap gear as a RDM, in fact any decent RDM carries at least 3 sets of gear for xp parties: MND, INT and MP.

If you are casting an INT based spell you gotta use equip macros to put all your +INT gear on, when you cast MND based spells you do the same, when you are going to convert or full rest you swap to your MP gear.

This is why most RDM (specially high lvl) have so many issues with inventory space, if you add the elemental staves and other +skill items we need to equip, that 60-items gobbie bag really looks like a small pocket.

This is also why carrying a bow, arrows and +r.acc gear might be difficult to pull with our already full inventory, but it can be done :thumbsup: