3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

[Aeni]

First of all, there is a nifty program, quite legal IMO, called FRAPS. You pay for this proggy, btw, and it takes screenshots much in the same manner as POL, with the exception that you can also SS the chat window as well. YOU DON'T NEED WINDOWER FOR THIS!

http://www.fraps.com/

So, there's no excuse really. However, even if not being able to SS the chat window, all I asked is why didn't the OP SS himself in mordion gaol with the GM in question that night. Really, all it takes is for one SS between him and the GM in question.

screenshots with Souljourn looks real to me. but you can't get upset with ppl not believing you. It's just the way it is.

How irony when you think about it. The GM suspended you saying you use 3rd party programs.
But in order to prove yourself to the internet you HAVE to use 3rd party programs like windower to take screenshots.

It doesn't prove a thing to me. He SS a conversation he has with a GM, but it doesn't explicitly point to the incident with another GM. In other words, for all we know, these new SSs could be about another topic altogether, including an issue with HNM claiming (You can see mention about Fafnir in there ... not sure what that is about)

Also, I believe as a common courtesy, you normally do not post such things in the forum community. I think resolution with SE comes first and if all else fails, you come to see the community about it. Rather than explicitly detailing the incident, a simple question on advice and asking where to seek recourse would help much more than trying to incite the community, whether or not intentionally, and provoke emotions and drama over this whole deal.

[Macht]

Aeni, I know you'd like to think that Fraps is a legal program. However it is still a 3rd party program. 3rd party program is any program that takes place of or enhances another program that was not created by the same developer or has offical authorization from the developer.

In technicality even the fraps is an illegal program, but it isn't doing anything to a point that the windower does so I doubt you'd find many that would really complaining about it. Well except the extreem purist types. Either way you can't naturally capture an image with a chatbox unless you used something like fraps or windower.

EDIT:

Good post Omni-Ragnarok, it proves the point that to much complaining ends up making a lot of the true issue kind of end up as backnoise and become forgotten. If you can't prove with evidence that is as close to 100% undeniable as possible then there is little point to post about it, just becomes another footnote that'll be forgotten.

[Kailea]

Aeni, I know you'd like to think that Fraps is a legal program. However it is still a 3rd party program. 3rd party program is any program that takes place of or enhances another program that was not created by the same developer or has offical authorization from the developer.

In technicality even the fraps is an illegal program, but it isn't doing anything to a point that the windower does so I doubt you'd find many that would really complaining about it. Well except the extreem purist types. Either way you can't naturally capture an image with a chatbox unless you used something like fraps or windower.

EDIT:

Good post Omni-Ragnarok, it proves the point that to much complaining ends up making a lot of the true issue kind of end up as backnoise and become forgotten. If you can't prove with evidence that is as close to 100% undeniable as possible then there is little point to post about it, just becomes another footnote that'll be forgotten.

lol SE is not going to ban you for useing Frapps -.- about 75% of us PC users use it anyway, it is a very nice program and does nothing to give us an "advantage"

[Omni]

lol SE is not going to ban you for useing Frapps -.- about 75% of us PC users use it anyway, it is a very nice program and does nothing to give us an "advantage"

that isnt the point. whether or not it gives an advantage or not, any and all 3rd party programs are prohibited by the ToA. many pc users use windower also. just because lots of ppl use it doesnt mean its ok under the ToA.

[Jei]

it's still a 3rd party program no matter if it's harmful or not ^^;
I used to use fraps. Now since windower can screencap I just use that instead. Fraps is still good for capturing movies btw.

[Aeni]

Aeni, I know you'd like to think that Fraps is a legal program. However it is still a 3rd party program. 3rd party program is any program that takes place of or enhances another program that was not created by the same developer or has offical authorization from the developer.

This is where you're wrong! Why? Because FRAPS is designed to work with Windows and EVERY other program out there. I'm able to take SS of a video clip, for example or SS an error message when I'm trying to compile a .DLL for a work project. In short, it's a screen shot program.

By your logic, having Winamp running in the background while playing FFXI is bad. Why? Because you're running a "3rd party" program while playing the game, which by your definition, is against the ToA. Am I not right?

Please people, common sense goes a long way. ;3

I don't understand why you're trying so hard to disbelieve this person. Why is Thunderan "innocent until proven guilty" to you whereas the OP is guilty until proven innocent? They're both people, neither one more credible than the other.

No where in this post have I called him a liar. I posted this in response to his very immature, "now everyone apologize below" post. Why should I? Because I'm not a gullible person? I have to apologize for that?

If anything, it seems you're almost ready to die defending the OP, which I can see your emotions are running high at this point. If that was the goal and intent of the OP, I see that in your case, he has done successfully well.

Double Post Edited:
If, for example, someone MPKed me, my first reaction would be to bitch about it in ls. Then, several seconds later after cooling off a bit, I would think to report the behavior to a GM properly. I think this is analagous. If I believed I had been wrongfully dealt with by a GM, I would want to share my story. I think it's a natural behavior for someone who has been hurt or wronged to try to get others to sympathize with their position. Possibly it would have been more civil to do as you suggested, but I don't think that failure is worth reproachful comments in red boldfaced text.

I did that because it wasn't just directed at him, but EVERYONE in this community. I see this happen far too many times. This happens so often, people forget that not only are they themselves humans, but the other people they are dealing with are human too. Why should I treat the OP any differently? Many of you have posted immediately such lines as, "oh, horrible GM!" or "God, I feel sorry for you!" Yet no one immediately posted the one thing other sensible people did later, which was to ask for proof.

[Caspian]

This is where you're wrong! Why? Because FRAPS is designed to work with Windows and EVERY other program out there. I'm able to take SS of a video clip, for example or SS an error message when I'm trying to compile a .DLL for a work project. In short, it's a screen shot program.

By your logic, having Winamp running in the background while playing FFXI is bad. Why? Because you're running a "3rd party" program while playing the game, which by your definition, is against the ToA. Am I not right?

Please people, common sense goes a long way. ;3

Because, technically according to the letter of the law, its is against the TOA. The only way you can take a SS in game is by getting rid of all the overlays. Using a non-SE program to take SS's that show everything is obvioulsy not what the devs intended.
Now, will a GM give you a warning or anything at all for using fraps? I personally don't think there is any way in the world unless you just happened to get the biggest a-hole of a GM there is. Note: You'd also have to be telling people that you are using it too, there's no way for them to know otherwise. I still don't specifically say that I use a windower ingame, regardless of whether or not GM's even care anymore.

Again, please don't get pissed or anything like that. I'm not telling you that you're a horrible person for using it. Like I said, I use it myself. Just understand if you get technical, we're all breaking the TOA by using it.

[Sassafrass]

Fraps is a perfectly legal program. It doesn't modify or even affect FFXI in any way. The program modifies Windows. It is simply a program that one runs to allow multiple images to be written to the clipboard. Not a hack. Not a bot. Just a program.

[PotentPotables]

I believe I've sat idle long enough with this post, please...

Can I add to the pointless and off-topic banter by asking if my Anti-Virus programis against the TOA because it prevents Key Logging and teh haxx0rz?

Post appropiate non-answers and/or flames below...

That is, unless everyones done discussing this, since obviously the thread has been pointless and off topic for awhile now >.>

[Jarre]

I believe I've sat idle long enough with this post, please...

Can I add to the pointless and off-topic banter by asking if my Anti-Virus programis against the TOA because it prevents Key Logging and teh haxx0rz?

Although it may not say it, Anti virus programs they can't argue with unless they can guarentee that whilst you are talking to their servers and getting replies no one can attach themselves to it. They can't and they wouldn't have the confidence to tell people not to use antivirus software as having a TOA saying that could open them up to compensation claims of people being hijacked whislt playing the game. I have F-secure running in the background whilst I play FFXi if they say I can't run it I would put the question accross "How are you going to protect me while I'm playing the game" they wont be able to provide a suitable answer and its in their interest for people to have security on their computers to prevent SE from getting hacks uploads i.e. DDOS attacks etc.

The same would apply to other programs like DU meter I have (upload and download traffic monitor, i use as I have a capped connection, so can make sure I don't gop over and my speed reduced to nearly dialup!!!), fan speed controllers and Gcard overclocking monitors etc.

Hacks and programs aimed at affecting FFXI, yes they can bust you for them. the screenshots they could probably argue, as they own the artwork, characters etc. (we only pay for the use of them) which is why their own screencapping software has their copyright at the bottom. If they would ever argue over windower or frapps that will be the direction they would argue with. copyright itself is a huge minefield of unknowns and besides logo or not, any post of shots inside the game, are surely free advertising for the quality of the game for them? :huh:

[Macht]

I believe I've sat idle long enough with this post, please...

Can I add to the pointless and off-topic banter by asking if my Anti-Virus programis against the TOA because it prevents Key Logging and teh haxx0rz?

Post appropiate non-answers and/or flames below...

That is, unless everyones done discussing this, since obviously the thread has been pointless and off topic for awhile now >.>

Aeni, I know you'd like to think that Fraps is a legal program. However it is still a 3rd party program. 3rd party program is any program that takes place of or enhances another program that was not created by the same developer or has offical authorization from the developer.

That right there is key to eveything I'm stating. Fraps is not a program made by SE and is not offically sanctioned by SE to be used with the game. So from SE's view point it is technically an illegal 3rd Party Program. Virus Scan programs SE has to sanction as a legal 3rd Party Program because it's dealing with basic securities.

SE provided a screencapture configuration of their own in the game, so Frap even though all it does is enhance the screencapture functionality it's still technically enhancing the game to an un-intended design and so is technically a 3rd Party Program.

Like I already stated though it would be silly to attack players who use Fraps because it's effects to the game are harmless in comparison to what the Windower can now do. 3rd party program is all circulated around weather the company sanctions it use while their program is active or not, that is the sole technicality to it. Like I said and will say again, only people that would even care if someone was using Fraps or not is a purist.

My own reasons for not using Fraps is because I'm very reserved on what programs I add to my system. If I feel the source is not reliable enough to trust I will not use it's program in preservation of avoiding any potential keylogger or other possible virus that could be in it. I'm not saying Fraps does, I'm simply saying that my method of electing to use a program is strict.

EDIT:

LOL, should of read Jarre's post before doing mine. He explained in more detail to the point I was making. Amazingly in fewer words too :(

[Tatha-Kitten]

O.o what do virus programs and TOS violations have to do with dirty GMs? i tend to believe the story from the sheer amount of people who's have a problem with this particular GM.

reputation is everything.

[PotentPotables]

/sigh...

Why am I misunderstood...

[Macht]

/sigh...

Why am I misunderstood...
Bad choice of words to explain your view?

Tatha-Kitten, the other stuff was kind of a tagent falling off the posters statment that they use windower just not when he had the GM trouble. Then of course the photo's he presented after which had to be done by either Fraps or Windower, which in part of the case of the GMs actions would be legit. His method of carrying it out though would not of been which seems to fall in line of the supposeded claims against that same GM.

[Tatha-Kitten]

fair enough then...

[Aeni]

Because, technically according to the letter of the law, its is against the TOA. The only way you can take a SS in game is by getting rid of all the overlays. Using a non-SE program to take SS's that show everything is obvioulsy not what the devs intended.
Now, will a GM give you a warning or anything at all for using fraps? I personally don't think there is any way in the world unless you just happened to get the biggest a-hole of a GM there is. Note: You'd also have to be telling people that you are using it too, there's no way for them to know otherwise. I still don't specifically say that I use a windower ingame, regardless of whether or not GM's even care anymore.

Again, please don't get pissed or anything like that. I'm not telling you that you're a horrible person for using it. Like I said, I use it myself. Just understand if you get technical, we're all breaking the TOA by using it.

LOL ... I can't believe you people buy into this.

FRAPs existed before Final Fantasy XI. It was originally a benchmarking tool and it is officially endorsed by MANY developers out there.

http://www.intel.com/cd/ids/developer/asmo-na/eng/76515.htm?prn=Y

People, get your facts straight before going all "ape shit" about legal stuff many of you don't even have any knowledge of.

Again and I reiterate here once more: If FRAPS is illegal, by definition, so is running Winamp.

Oh yes, I must add that link is to an Intel developer resource site. You can also dig this up on Microsoft's Direct X site as well as Nvidia's and ATI's site. Again, this program was not made solely to run with FFXI. Apparently, it just did and people found that taking screenshots was a great thing with using the program.

[Intensity]

Aeni is 100% correct. The reason using FRAPS isn't breaking the TOS is because it does not affect, alter, or modify FFXI at all. Its sole purpose is to capture images on your screen. As far as advertising or using any of the images you do capture or publishing them anywhere, that could be against the TOS because as someone said before, they're copyrighted material. But the use of FRAPS is perfectly legal.

[Caspian]

LOL ... I can't believe you people buy into this.

FRAPs existed before Final Fantasy XI.

And murder existed before the Ten Commandments. I fail to see how a timeline changes the fact that its a 3rd party program.

Was SquareEnix on the list of one of the MANY developers that supported FRAPS? That might lend a little support for your belief.

Next time you're on, call a GM. After waiting a few hours ask them if there is any way possible that using FRAPS could in any way be construed as a violation of the TOS, no matter how slight.

Where in my post did I say that I thought using FRAPS was bad or that you shouldn't use FRAPS? I don't care what you do. I use it all the time. I also run windower which can not be argued against at all. Use of 3rd party programs is against the TOS. It is a 3rd party program that interacts with it, no matter how small the interaction actually is.
Technically its against the law for me to cross a residential street, in the middle of the street late at night when absolutely noone is around. In reality, noone actually gives a shit and nothing is going to happen to you for it. You're acting like we're calling you an evil person for using the program. I think its fair to say that noone cares, do what you want.
And, "buying into this"? Its law. Its constantly changing and is argued greatly on point of view. You convince someone that your point of view of the law is the correct one, guess what, you win.

[Sugesuke_Plain]

that isnt the point. whether or not it gives an advantage or not, any and all 3rd party programs are prohibited by the ToA. many pc users use windower also. just because lots of ppl use it doesnt mean its ok under the ToA.

Obviously if they can have a video contest at the Fan Festival... they dont have any problem with people using fraps

[bikkebakke]

Obviously if they can have a video contest at the Fan Festival... they dont have any problem with people using fraps

Very good point since they most certainly did not build in a method for video capture. :thumbsup:

[Intensity]

Obviously if they can have a video contest at the Fan Festival... they dont have any problem with people using fraps

QFT

w00t I love dinging.

[Aeni]

And murder existed before the Ten Commandments. I fail to see how a timeline changes the fact that its a 3rd party program.

You say that's SE's official stance. Nowhere did they say this. Don't believe me? Go and read the TOA yourself and explicitly point out (Quote it please, word for word with no alteration or translation) and post here.

Obviously if they can have a video contest at the Fan Festival... they dont have any problem with people using fraps

Exactly.

God people, use &&*#$*&E% common sense. ;3

[Caspian]

You say that's SE's official stance. Nowhere did they say this. Don't believe me? Go and read the TOA yourself and explicitly point out (Quote it please, word for word with no alteration or translation) and post here.

You have a copy of it? I'm at work and can't get on Playonline right now.

[Omniblast]

LOL ... I can't believe you people buy into this.

FRAPs existed before Final Fantasy XI. It was originally a benchmarking tool and it is officially endorsed by MANY developers out there.

http://www.intel.com/cd/ids/developer/asmo-na/eng/76515.htm?prn=Y


Hey lookie what I found on the intel website for developer tools.

Xylobot* is Useful in Creating Media Workloads

Xylobot* is a generic game-development tool that is compatible with most DirectX games. Xylobot can record keyboard and mouse actions, and then play back those actions within the application. This functionality is particularly useful in creating online games. Xylobot can generate a reproducible workload, where a series of actions are scripted. With Xylobot, the developer can produce a series of similar sequences using the scripting tool, and then profile that sequence any number of times. This functionality allows developers to make changes to their code, then compare and correlate one profiled sequence to each subsequent sequence.

So it must be ok to bot as well! Since it's endorsed by developers & Intel! WOW EXCELLENT!

BTW: This is fun.

You have a copy of it? I'm at work and can't get on Playonline right now.
https://secure.playonline.com/supportus/index03.html

[Intensity]

First thing I've found. Concerning the publishing and use of anything you could get from running FRAPS.

The unauthorized use, duplication, transmission, display, performance or distribution of any items owned by you or third parties, or any other commission of any act of copyright, trademark, or patent infringement, trade secret infringement or misappropriation, or any other violation of any intellectual property or other proprietary right;

At work so gimme a min to find the 3rd pt software portion. On the phone currently.

[Macht]

Again and I reiterate here once more: If FRAPS is illegal, by definition, so is running Winamp.

Technically by SE's ToS that is correct. Remember I'm saying a big key word here TECHNICALLY, this means that at any point SE could deam the program illegal to use in conjunction with their game. As long as you agree to their ToS then to be complying you would have to stop all use of the program while the game is running.

And like I already stated the only person who'd every really be complaining about the use of something like Fraps or Winamp would be some extreeme purist.

It doesn't matter one bit if the program is backed by many other developers if it isn't backed by the developer you are using it on it is an illegal 3rd party program. At the points we are getting down to though is just like the laws you can find such as it being illegal to put a horse in your bathtub.

Going with the horse thing, first off who'd really care if you put a horse in your own bathtub if the horse fits just fine? Second who'd really want to enforce such a silly law?

That is all I'm stating, it is technically an illegal 3rd party program so it's basically use at your own risk. As far as I'm aware there is no reason for the GM to be targeting that program so it isn't like you'll be punished for using it. You're far more likely to be punished for using Windower because it is know to have potential to be more detrimental to the game then Fraps or Winamp.

As it breaks down though it is technically an illegal 3rd party program. If for some stupid as hell reason the GMs decide to get you for those certain reasons they would be in the right on a simple technicality.

[Intensity]

Well, I've looked at each agreement on playonline.com and I can't find the use of 3rd party software portion. Granted, haven't read them all top to bottom, but I did a fair amount of skimming. I'll read it all the way through tonight after work, but if someone else could find the part of the TOS that says "User can't use any 3rd party software etc..." it'd probably put this argument to rest.

[AKosygin]

In theory this should clear things up, however, it may just cause more debate on this. :wasted:

In any case, justice is not stupid to not consider the spirit of the Terms of Service and read solely on the letter of the terms of service. Furthermore, if you read the Terms of Service, it actually says something else.

In the PlayOnline Member Agreement (you can find this under Support and Services) section 4.4 says they can revoke or suspend your account if you break any of the listed activities. At this point, it is important to note subsection B, I, and J.

Subsection B says: "Interfering with or obstructing the operation of the PlayOnline Service;"

Subsection I says: "Use of any cheat codes or cheat devices; or"

Subsection J says: "Violating any Rule." (Probably Rules of Conduct)

Then if you go to the Rules of Conduct, section 2 "Prohibited Conduct" says that you may not do the following and one of them says:
"Use of third party equipment or programs for controlling characters without the player's presence."

So, the definition is very specific. However, there is one more thing I want to cover before I move on to the actual discussion of the topic.

In section 2.4 of the Software License Agreement:
"To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not: (a) modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;..."

Now, what does this make legal and not legal? It becomes a bit more clear (if you understand the wording). FRAPS does not modify the POL or FFXI software, and it doesn't allow you to cheat, it doesn't give you any unfair advantage while playing the game. So FRAPS is clearly in the WHITE and OK area, so is your Anti-Virus software.

What about the Windower and the POLUtils?

The Windower is borderline and it depends on what plugin you enable on the Windower. It does not modify any of the files or the program, but it modifies the processes. What the MAKER/CREATOR of the Windower did violated THEIR ToS with SE, because they did some decompiling or some reverse engineering to make their software interface. But as far as you are concerned, the Windower just windowing the software doesn't give you much of an advantage (if at all). However, because you are applying to the modification of the process of the software, they CAN argue that because you have modified the running process you have modified their software as it is not running in a way they programmed it. So, there is some room for debate, but it gets farther in to the BLACK and NOT OK area as you enable more and more plugins that are more "helpful" during game play.

THe POLUtils is clearly in the black area, sorry, I wish it wasn't. Even though it is not cheating and the GMs can't really check it (unless SE ran a program process like WoW), it is technically illegal because it modifies the files directly. So while it doesn't break the cheating or violations of Rules of Conduct rules, it violates the Software License Agreement. However, because of the spirit of the rule and the difficulty (generally) in proving the modification of files on YOUR computer, they generally look the other way. That is where the spirit of the rule come in.

If it is obvious to them that there is no way you could be doing something in game without modifying the game, then they are going to catch you, especially if it lets you do something that is going to piss or annoy others to report you. But if you are going to do something that is harder to detect and more nebulous, they are going to leave you alone and fry the bigger fish first.

It is almost analogous to the difference between robbing a convienence store and speeding on a highway. If you cheat or "bot" or RMT (rob a store) you are going to be caught and taken down; if you just like your JP client to read English or just to see the text files (speeding) you may just get a ticket or might get away scott free. Both are illegal, but robbing a convienence store has more overall negative impact than speeding on a freeway.

Remember, the GMs can only do so much, so their priority goes to enforcing rules that are broken that make the community not happy. So long as you don't flaunt your modifications or technical violations (analogous to speeding down a freeway then cutting off a cop in their lane) you should be okay.

BE FOREWARNED! If you are doing something sneaky and dirty even on an ethical level, you will have hell to pay when you are caught!

If you are paranoid, don't use ANY of the programs that has something directly to do with POL or FFXI. Otherwise, you should be able to figure out which one is okay and which one is not. Remember, YOU are committing the violation, not the program. People kill people, guns don't kill people. So don't do something stupid with the programs!:thumbsup:

[Caspian]

Thanks AKo, thats the info I was looking for. It appears I was mistaken. I believed the TOS to say something other than it actually did. Should have dug it up before I jumped into this.

[AKosygin]

I would also like to add one more little detail for those that whine to the GMs:

"Well, so and so also did this, they didn't get suspended so why should I be?"

Dude, you got caught and they didn't, tough luck. Try saying that to a cop after speeding on the freeway and see what they say; they will still give you that ticket.

And also, "So and so got this too, why can't I get it?"

Remember, you are player, you see what happens only between you and the GMs and not others with the GMs. You don't know everything that went on in the incident, don't think you know it all, because you don't. So something may have happened that was different between you and your friend that changed the situation. So don't think the GMs are treating you unfairly, there was probably something different in the situation between you and your friend. Ask about it once, and if they explain that they can't do it because it is different, leave them alone. Pissing the GMs off will lower your chances of them actually helping you, be nice, be friendly while being persistent. If you mouth off, they are going to just :rolleyes: (roll their eyes) and ignore you.

And a personal tip: I can safely say to you all that our enforcement of policies at FFXIOnline.com will be fairly propotional to the enforcement taken by the GM Team. If you do something here where if you have done it in game will cause the GMs to come down hard on you, you better believe that the same will happen here. Don't ask, don't tell is the best policy with some of the stuff. But if you are blatant or causing other problems, don't be surprised if we throw the book at you.

OFFICIAL / LEGAL NOTICE: "The failure of FFXIOnline.com or its staff to exercise its rights or insist upon the performance of the user's obligation with us under our Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct shall not consitute a waiver or relinquishment of those or any other rights under our Rules of Conduct or Terms of Service."

[Aeni]

Thank you AKosygin. As a beta tester, many of us cleared the use of FRAPS with GM Thalina, Chandrak and others. However, my saying so won't be word enough, which is why I challenged people to go read the TOA themselves and tell me where it says that FRAPS is illegal - either implicitly or explicitly.

And Sugesuke_Plain just made it even more apparent with his comment about the Fan Festival event. If FRAPS or similar programs (I use that word loosely, only because arguments might be made trying to associate "black" programs with something like FRAPS either for or against the use) are condoned by SE in their own events and if players end up getting in trouble because of this, then in a legal sense, SE is setting themselves up for nasty and expensive litigations. I don't think their own general counsel is that stupid.

[Caspian]

Whats the actual reason for the built in SS program to not capture all the overlays?

[Aeni]

Whats the actual reason for the built in SS program to not capture all the overlays?

It had something to do with a PS2 limitation on memory. But that's all I can offer at this point, because in Beta, one of the key devs told us he couldn't provide an answer (This was in one of the emails we were getting on a sporadic basis -- pretty lame for testing standards if you asked me >.< ) You'd think that wouldn't be an issue with the PC, but code for code, FFXI was indeed ported from PS2 to the PC and not made any different. I guess we can look at the XBox 360 version for proof of this T_T

[Balfree]

It is a 3rd party software and SE doesnt allow for it.

Even windows vista, which is a full OS, is being rejected by SE for FFXI.. because it has the ability to windowmode any program, and SE doesnt like that.

Sugesuke_Plain has a valid point <.< i wonder if anyone bothered asking SE about that...

[Jarre]

Aeni is 100% correct. The reason using FRAPS isn't breaking the TOS is because it does not affect, alter, or modify FFXI at all. Its sole purpose is to capture images on your screen. As far as advertising or using any of the images you do capture or publishing them anywhere, that could be against the TOS because as someone said before, they're copyrighted material. But the use of FRAPS is perfectly legal.

I get where your coming from but the key point is, its not illegal in the TOA to have it on your computer, its if it is runnign and you use it in game to take a screenshot or video etc. then it is against their TOC. the other thing is to grain a bit bck onto topic, the interations between the GM's and players is suposed to be confidential i.e. one to one and the posting of the text between a GM and a player should be kept that way. To post and cause hate campaigns against certain Gm's no matter what they have said or done (as we all know some people can always "bend" the truth). the GM's don't publically publish all their interactions with players or have it accessable by others (unless in extreem circumstances where requested by a law enforcement agency). That is their main tangent, its the text, why do you think the FFXI screencap method doesn't show any text boxes? anyone can photoshop text to say different things and if they are good it can nearly be unoticable. Also people could use the text millicously against other players etc. its safe to say the screencap software SE use prevents any of this and basically, covers their arse from any subsequent matters that could arrise from this in the form of harrasment, legal actions etc. I personally would like SE to allow the character data on the right of the screen to be included etc, who knows. I am considering emailing SE if they can provide offical feedback on the use of Frapps for screen captures and quietly mention the fan festival video competition etc.

Lol macht you should read my posts, though i know there long and i waffle occasionally, but the usefull content is in there (somewhere) lol :biggrin:

[Intensity]

No, the only way running it while playing the game is illegal is if you use the copyrighted material you get from it in some way that violates copyright laws. Running the program itself IS NOT against the TOS> And as for Windows Vista, that's our point. SE won't support it because it's basically got a built-in windower. Any program on your PC is not illegal if it doesn 1: Connect to FFXI's files in anyway 2: Doesn't require any of FFXI's files to run 3: Doesn't manipulate or in anyway affect FFXI's files or the program of POL or FFXI itself. If a program doesn't touch FFXI in anyway while the game is running, it isn't illegal. FRAPS doesn't use anything of FFXI to run, it's just a screen capture program. It's the same thing as saying grabbing a Video Camera and recording your monitor while you're playing isn't illegal because in all actuality, that video camera interacts with FFXI as much as FRAPS does. Which is not at all.

Double Post Edited:
[b] the other thing is to grain a bit bck onto topic, [\b]

As a side note, we ARE on topic. lol

[Omniblast]

Regarding Windows Vista, what is the final verdict from Square Enix on the use of Vista & Final Fantasy XI? Someone should have asked during Fan Festival, but we got stupid questions like, "Does CHR affect Provoke?"

[neighbortaru]

but we got stupid questions like, "Does CHR affect Provoke?"it's not stupid if it shuts the morons up once and for all.

[klvino]

In beta, it was occasionally neccessary to SS stuff and send it in, and sometimes the only way to perform that task reliably was using fraps. And this is where the confusion begins... we aren't in beta anymore, so are we still allowed to fraps or not. Personally, I've discontinued use to prevent any potential conflicts, but would love to have an official answer from S-E to settle the matter.

Since the matter is getting blown out of proportion, work from a GM may not be enough, S-E would need to say something to settle it once and for all and put it all to rest.

[Intensity]

Oh man. Wtfe. I'm not gonna beat this dead horse anymore. I can't believe after all the information and LOGICAL explanations from AK, Aeni, and myself you guys are still himming and hawing. Believe what you will, you'll be able to argue semantics for days no matter what proof we hand out so I'm wiping my hands clean of this.

[Macht]

it's not stupid if it shuts the morons up once and for all.

Agreed there, I never really thought CHR to effect Provoke. My theory has been a different stat. CHR as far as I can tell seem to be like a Random Modifier or your luck rating of some sort. Like SE it taking the basic stats they always used in their previous games and instead of putting LUCK they renamed it to CHR.

To quote a part of AKosygin's post of the aggrement 'To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not: (a) modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;...'

Modify is the key point I was going off of. A program can unintentionaly be using a method that would modify another programs process. To the point that Aeni stated if the GMs or someone from SE said "Yes go ahead and use that program" then it is a definate "WHITE" because that is basically consent. If the program is found to be causing an exploit that players take advantage of then it can be banned, so even though it is a "WHITE" now it's still a use at your own risk.

It won't have any problems as long as there is no exploit with it and as long as no player that finds a potential exploit takes advantage of it. Just breaking the Agreement down to such specifics creates so many areas of gray that the best BLACK and WHITE method is to just go with the decision of any 3rd party or none (excluding OS dependant for security and normal operation).

That's my stand, in either point I myself could careless if someone used FRAPS. I see it having no real damaging effect to the game currently, if something is discovered were it can be used to cheat and people exploit it then I will have an issue with the use of FRAPS. Windower is a different story especially the newer versions of it since it does have damaging potentials it can do.

Double Post Edited:
Whats the actual reason for the built in SS program to not capture all the overlays?

The built in SS program only works if you remove the overlays, but it also tags the photo with the SE copyright information. I'll have to look at my older SSs but I could swear that before the SS program use to work when the overlays were there, if that is the case then SE intentionaly made that change which again brings question of FRAPS really being that clean a program it could be falling into a grayish area now.

Have to keep in mind online agreements are changing they never stay like they were when first created. So it is necisary to keep up-to-date on the agreements so you are not unintentionaly doing something illegal. Which circulates back to my position of just taking it as any 3rd party program or none.

[WishMaster3K]

FTR, I've utilized FRAPS, but for own personal usage such as seeing my FPS at a given time (Dynamis, Lower Jeuno, Yhoator) and under different settings to see how my performance is affected. I test for lag, delay in loading, character loading and response time to different circumstances to find the best settings for given graphic levels.

. . .if that is the case then SE intentionaly made that change which again brings question of FRAPS really being that clean a program it could be falling into a grayish area now.

If FRAPS is illegal, by definition, so is running Winamp.

OKies, speculation and stuff is all well and good, but just like the Constitution, the ToS means different things to the different people that read it based on the interpretations that they WANT. Those in the thread so far that want it to be allowable offer a different perspective of the same exact words as those that believe it to fall under the umbrella of 3rd Party and, hence, illegal.

So let me cut to the point: Fraps is 3rd party, this much is fact. And no matter what we may think or view it as, Fraps runs by monitoring DirectX components, measuring FPS and allowing straight Screenshots right from the graphics card. The fact that the SE copyright logo is missing voids the validity of the screens taken, because as intellectual property, their graphics, game and technology is being misrepresented.

To those of us that play the game, we know what things look like, but without the copyright info, someone could easily take a screenshot, show it to some non-gamer and say that this is a game they are working on.

No, FRAPs does not affect gameplay, per se, nor does it interact WITH FFXI, per se. However, it, when running at the same time as FFXI, can do things unintended by the developers, such as taking screenshots of conversations. Whether these screenshots are incriminating or not, there have been documented GM conversations (ironically taken using FRAPS. . .) where they said they could not accept the "proof" that someone was a Gilseller/MPKer/Botter, etc, because the screenshot did not have the SE Copyright on it.

And please, that Winamp comment was remarkably unrelated, Winamp running is the same as having WordPad or Internet Explorer open, in that different components of the computer are being utilized. The difference between having Winamp and FRAPS open whilst playing FFXI is that i can't use winamp to do something IN Final Fantasy. With FRAPS, I can do something directly relating to the game, whether it is seen as minor or not.

So it's against the ToS, but due to the nature of it being unharmful (for the most part, at least. . . ) SE would rather turn their heads and spend money and resources combating things like inflation, boting and duping than gamers wanting to take blackmail screenshots of their friends making Brokeback-like references to Chuck Norris, who is, ironically, a cowboy :P

Making an analogy off of what someone earlier said, running a red light and speeding are both illegal, but if both happen at the same time, the speeder has a bigger penalty because what they are doing endangers more people, so the law enforcer might turn their head to the light-runner.

[zettair]

If you are on a PS2 and you are using a computer while playing then you are "enhancing your playing experience" by being able to search the net for info. How then can a PC user not try and do the same thing unless they are both mutually wrong. All I see are people complaining about people using Fraps or the windower like they are sins.

Honestly, I think if Square says in their ToA that 3rd party programs are illegal then why even have a PC version because then the OS itself is a 3rd party program. Unless they specifically say that 3rd party programs that effect FFXI are against it. If it doesn't say that then they could technically say just because you are using a PC you are against the ToA.

I'm just trying to be objective here. Frankly, I don't think Fraps is bad because screenshots are much of a problem. I think the windower is against the ToA because it does effect FFXI by hooking it and putting it into a window. There are clear differences. Fraps doesn't effect FFXI and several people have stated as such in this thread.

[Intensity]

No, FRAPs does not affect gameplay, per se, nor does it interact WITH FFXI, per se. However, it, when running at the same time as FFXI, can do things unintended by the developers, such as taking screenshots of conversations. Whether these screenshots are incriminating or not, there have been documented GM conversations (ironically taken using FRAPS. . .) where they said they could not accept the "proof" that someone was a Gilseller/MPKer/Botter, etc, because the screenshot did not have the SE Copyright on it.

No, they won't accept ANY screenshots as proof of violations in the game. Even the ones that have the copyright logo on it. This is because any type of digital image can be doctored.

Damnit, I said I wasn't coming back. :rolleyes:

[WishMaster3K]

Well let's just accept that all GMs are bastards who can't do awsome things. Instead of putting ppl in jail, GMs should come in, hit players once, and make them delevel 5 times and have them randomly lose 3-5 pieces of equipment permanently. THAT would be justice. See how often you bot/mpk if you get GM smacked out of your AF armor or God Gear.

And the fault itself lies in the wording, and as I said, there are different interpretations. SE will need clearer vernacular because if taken literally, any program running in the background while you are playing FFXI could be considered 3rd party.

[Intensity]

Well let's just accept that all GMs are bastards who can't do awsome things. Instead of putting ppl in jail, GMs should come in, hit players once, and make them delevel 5 times and have them randomly lose 3-5 pieces of equipment permanently. THAT would be justice. See how often you bot/mpk if you get GM smacked out of your AF armor or God Gear.

And the fault itself lies in the wording, and as I said, there are different interpretations. SE will need clearer vernacular because if taken literally, any program running in the background while you are playing FFXI could be considered 3rd party.

True, which means, like law in IRL we have to look to previous situations to clarify. Such as SE holding a FFXI movie contest. =P And saying that in that instance, they weren't expressly saying FRAPS is legal, is just trying to keep the argument open and not accepting the obvious.

And I've gotta hand it to you Wish. That's probably the best and would be the most effective penalty I can think of. Unfortunately, like in the situation that started this whole thing we'd run into GM's who either abuse that ability or don't exercise it nearly enough.

[WishMaster3K]

GMs FTW!

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/07/22

There was this other one where he totally forced this guy to give him some piece of armor then threw it away a panel later. I wonder what would happen if they made ACTUAL gamers GMs. You know, people who understand how to spot someone who is truly an MPKer, someone who has an extensive network of gamers that they can utilize? I doubt it'll happen, I know that if I become a GM, I'd probably show favoritism to my RL friends and force spawn Vrtra, or tank Fafnir using God Mode or something, or give myself money to clean out the AH, take the money from their delivery boxes, and distribute the funds among the ppl and sell Scorpion Harnesses for 5mil again. . .

OT:
Is anything in the POL folders is illegal also, right? So something like, using a program like ModelViewer to find out what the .dats are so that I can swap pieces of gear falls under that category? I suspect it is so, but like a lot of other modifications, it's benign.

Windower is evil. . . They have an app for distance. I know a RNG that has like no Racc+ and is stacking Ratk and STR gear. He does insane damage. . .

[Macht]

If you are on a PS2 and you are using a computer while playing then you are "enhancing your playing experience" by being able to search the net for info. How then can a PC user not try and do the same thing unless they are both mutually wrong. All I see are people complaining about people using Fraps or the windower like they are sins.

Have no problems with Fraps currently and the older version of windower when it was simply just a windower. In that case both I could careless.

FRAPS I currently could care less it hasn't proven to provide any exploit that allows a player to speek hack, or do various and clearly illegal actions. The new windower however is an issue now, because it does provide potentials for speed hacks and doing over various and clearly illegal actions.

Now for hypothetical if FRAPS was found to do a speek hack then it would no longer be cleared program by SE. In that case past referrence become irrelivant. Which is why I state that you have to keep up-to-date on which are and are not, this thread shows that many who use a program like FRAPS can't really provide relivant proof that FRAPS is legal.

That was until Intensity provided the comment about a FFXI movie contest, that is probably the only most resent action that could validate FRAPS as being ok still. Otherwise you can't always use past refferences to validate a programs use, what if something was found were FRAPS created an exploit that was found after that movie contest. The program would be illegal even though it's past instances suggested it was legal.

So you have to be sure you are staying aware of the programs legality, because it could quite literally change overnight. Heh, seems I'm still beating on this dead horse.....wonder if a rib will be expose if I keep poking it :worry:

/me runs off to find a long sharp stick.

[Intensity]

Actually I think FFassist is what you're talking about concerning the distance measuring. Reads it out in meters. Windower might have it but I haven't tried it out yet.

EDIT to Macht: That like saying asprin is legal, but only because they haven't found out it can harm you yet. The issue here isn't whether FRAPS will be illegal in the future after modifications or add-ons are updated for it. The issue here is whether FRAPS, in it's present state, is in any way against the TOS. I have yet to see anything presented supporting this idea.

[zettair]

I don't know if Fraps was previously legal or not. In fact, I don't personally know what programs are. I haven't been playing FFXI for a few years(plan to start again soon). However, I'm not saying whether Fraps is illegal or not. My gut instincts say no because I don't consider a video or screenshot capturing program to truly be effecting FFXI because it isn't changing anything with the program. Now, if Fraps added say, a button inside of FFXI so you could take pictures. Then yes, I would then say Fraps is illegal but that is hypothetical. Fraps doesn't do that.

I didn't have a problem with the older windower either because I only used it so that I could continue to talk with people or work on homework. I never used it to try and hack anything although I'm sure it could because it does demonstrate how FFXI can be hoodwinked. I think that might be more of the reason why Square doesn't like the program. By discouraging use of such a program they hope to keep people from then using programs that hoodwink FFXI even more and that then do speed hacks and botting.

[Omniblast]

it's not stupid if it shuts the morons up once and for all.

*sigh* I guess so. However I do remember someone stating this fact a long time ago. Same thing with the Treasure Hunter on the last hit or not. I'm not sure if i remember or not, but does Treasure Hunter +1 items stack or not?

Making an analogy off of what someone earlier said, running a red light and speeding are both illegal, but if both happen at the same time, the speeder has a bigger penalty because what they are doing endangers more people, so the law enforcer might turn their head to the light-runner.

There is a forseeable factor that running the red light could possibly cause a accident such as hitting a pedestrian or other vehicle(s). There is also forseeable that the speeder can hit a pedestrian or other vehicle(s).
The police officer (GM) makes the verdict call on who or both would get the ticket even if there is only 1 officer available. Both could easily be caught (call other officers) or only 1 could have been caught. But once again, this is up to the officer (GM). They made that decision, whether it is correct or not. Then the Judicial branch comes in play and the courts make that decision on whether nor not that is or is not correct call for the officer. There is no Judicial Branch for Square Enix.

Now back to 3rd party applications. One of the reasons why (I think, In my opinion) they could have made that disclaimer in their TOA is so that if anything happens to your character as a result of your using a 3rd party application to screw up their data, so they can turn around and say, "I'm sorry we cannot help you due to the nature of the incident."

Well let's just accept that all GMs are bastards who can't do awsome things. Instead of putting ppl in jail, GMs should come in, hit players once, and make them delevel 5 times and have them randomly lose 3-5 pieces of equipment permanently. THAT would be justice. See how often you bot/mpk if you get GM smacked out of your AF armor or God Gear.

This sounds like a good idea, except that it should be levels and it should be permenant. "Hey I'm level 70 and I can't level up any more! GM's permentantly deleveled me 5 levels! wtf!?!"

Or atleast delevel all their jobs to level 1. That would be awesome. Everytime Gil Sellers or Botters or whatever gets up to level 60, SMACK delevel to 1. Hey SE still gets paid regardless correct? What more do you want than them to receive more payment for someone that keeps wanting to play the game, even after they deleveled?

* Macht runs off to find a long sharp stick.
*hands Macht a sharp stick, axe, hammer & cleaver*
You mind if I have a whack at it too? :cool:

Actually I think FFassist is what you're talking about concerning the distance measuring. Reads it out in meters. Windower might have it but I haven't tried it out yet.

The helpful .dll's for window are as follows expwatch.dll, Tparty.dll, Bloodpace.dll, distance.dll.

expwatch = shows how much tnl, your exp / total tnl, how long period of time since that mob died (for chains), and how much exp per hour.
Tparty = shows how much tp your party & alliance has
Bloodpace = shows blood pact time left till you can use it
distance = shows the distance between you and your selected target. Unknown unit of measure.

[Intensity]

Thanks for the info Omni. I knew about the Tparty but that's automatically on. Haven't tried anything else. I use something else for all those anyway. >.>

[Aeni]

The built in SS program only works if you remove the overlays, but it also tags the photo with the SE copyright information. I'll have to look at my older SSs but I could swear that before the SS program use to work when the overlays were there, if that is the case then SE intentionaly made that change which again brings question of FRAPS really being that clean a program it could be falling into a grayish area now.

Have to keep in mind online agreements are changing they never stay like they were when first created. So it is necisary to keep up-to-date on the agreements so you are not unintentionaly doing something illegal. Which circulates back to my position of just taking it as any 3rd party program or none.

Umm, Macht, POL's SS utility NEVER could take SSs with the chat overlay on top. Even in Closed Beta and Open Beta, you always had to "Scroll Lock" and then hit the "Prt Scn" button to take SSs. Again, it has more to do with technical limitations in the PS2 as one of the devs said, but he never did elaborate on what those limitations were.

Also, as Intensity said, I could take a video camera or a digital camera and still take a screenshot. The only difference is that FRAPS can produce a cleaner copy while the former options might not.

If you don't believe me, play WOW. Their screenshot utility works much in the way FRAPS does and takes screenshot with chat and everything else intact.

Everyone of you also know that, even using POL SS utility that there is only one legal way of using it, right? That's having to use the /name command in conjunction with taking a screenshot. Also, SE used to host a screenshot competition (I'm not sure if it is still ongoing, but the latest Vana'Diel Times do not have this competition anymore) and that was a big requirement for submitting screenshots and there was a disclaimer that said to the effect that this also applies to outside of competition (Meaning you're not allowed to screenshot with players name visible)

[Kitsune]

From this discussion it sounds like we are all going to get banned from FFXI because we are using Microsoft Windows.

[Intensity]

From this discussion it sounds like we are all going to get banned from FFXI because we are using Microsoft Windows.

QFT

[x1ang]

well then .DAT swapping/editing would be just as bad no?

[DieselBoy09]

*jumps into the fire*

[little ninja]

well then .DAT swapping/editing would be just as bad no?

To quote a part of AKosygin's post of the aggrement 'To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not: (a) modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;...'

so everyone playing with the .dats are violating ToS. switching your moggle to a taru is violating the agreement.

is fraps right or wrong does not matter to me. ive been running fraps long before FFXI was installed on my pc, an i will be running fraps long after FFXI has left my hard drive.

[x1ang]

well if you go into the "moral" argument.. i don't see anything wrong with using Fraps (well.. i can't imagine anyone having a problem with someone using fraps) or windower or .dat swapping for that matter. sure with Fraps there's no potential for abuse as there is in using the windower or .dat swapping, but in the general sense of using a windower, for what it is itself, i can see nothing wrong with it... alttabbing around your desktop isn't going to be harmful (using windower to hack is another question however). personally, i see it as the idea where "one's right to privacy (ex. swinging a fist) ends where another's begin (ex. the nose)"

is there anything wrong with using ffassist/windower/recast/etc.? not in my eyes... sure SE doesn't want you to use them and i understand the point, but i couldn't care less if i played knowingly with people who used those tools as it doesn't help them steal NMs over other players, etc. i do belive the GM was being abusive (as wasn't it proven in the thread?).. and why are GMs always put under a suspicious scrutiny? because they are in a position of power and have the potential to abuse it (kinda contradictory with the use of windower eh?). anyways yeah :3

[sevenpointflaw]

Okay, fraps overlays on everything. When you take a screenshot with it you're taking a screenshot of "what the video card sees" minus the fraps overlay. I make that distiction because windower takes a screenshot of FFXI.

Specificly, FRAPS does -not- inject itself into FFXI, or deal specificly with FFXI memlocs. What it does do, more or less, is grab outgoing video information. This is not illegal, provided you do not attempt to sell that outgoing FFXI footage or screenshots.

Windower screenshotting -does- inject into FFXI. It actually replaces FFXI specific functions.

I don't know if anyone else understands the legality of the differences, but there you have it. One injects/hooks to FFXI, the other injects/hooks to windows using the DX API, which is legal.

[Manatra]

Geez, you guys are really going at it with scalpels, aren't you? :P