The other ranged weapons

[Omni]

Has anyone used the hundreds (ok maybe not hundreds) of other bows available in an xp setting? Other than these bows below:

Power bow+1
Great bow+1
Battle bow+1
War bow +1
E-bow/Selene's Bow (if applicable)
Gendawa/Shigeto/etc. (if applicable)

Every other bow doesnt get any love except lightning bow and rosenbogen, which are used for their DEX and VIT stats mainly.

Has anyone tried using one of these 'lesser' bows and noted their performance compared to the standard rng bow?

[Macht]

Not really but most of them are pretty likely to guess how they will be. Just measure against those basic ones a RNG uses. If it's DMG is less with higher Delay it's going to do less damage then that bow but gain more TP faster for example. Those bows are great for measuring performance of the others because of the pattern and increase each one has to the prior.

The only random factor outside of that is what Arrow you use. Otherwise the only worth testing the others is to see if you can find ones with hidden effects that people may not know about.

[Caspian]

There's lots of shortbows that noone ever uses. You'd think they'd be the same since even though the damage is less, so is the delay, but since this game depends a great deal on big numbers in a short time, that lends itself to the higher damage and delay bows. Though rare, the higher delay bows take greater advantage of rapid shot, as well as ws's and barrages. They introduce so many random shortbows, surely atleast one of them has a hidden effect that would be nice. But nicer than the already great damage that bows like Selene's and Ebow already do? Not sure about that.

[aegina]

i've noticed a couple of the bows that have less damage that the ones i've been using, but have significantly less delay. i've been curious whether or not the less delay would let you do more damage over time by firing arrows faster, but i didn't try em. i'm spending more than enough money on arrows as it is XD

[Omni]

im thinking the delay and dmg have to be pretty decent. too low and too fast of delay, it ends up taking forever to get 100 tp. i have a loxely bow and it shots pretty darn fast (120 delay) but the dmg is pretty crappy. ~40-50 a shot. sidewinders do 200-300 on IT mobs.

now the shortbows that are say 400ish delay with a decent amount of dmg, coupled with the best arrow for that lvl can probably drop some nice numbers w/o the killer delay.

what caspian said about rapid shot being used the best on long bows is true. can anyone dare to take a shortbow into xp for maybe 4-5 mobs and see? XD

[Macht]

Well,

I took all the Bows created a database of their Damage and Delay, then took all the Arrows and did the same. Then combined their damage and delay in various ways to determine ratiosof which is best and which is worst combination.

What I ended up with is that the absolute 10 best combinations would be:


Loxley Bow + Kabura Arrow
Loxley Bow + Demon Arrow
Loxley Bow + Patriarch Protector's Arrow
Yoichinoyumi + Kabura Arrow
Loxley Bow + Bodkin Arrow
Futatokoroto + Kabura Arrow
Eurytos' Bow + Kabura Arrow
Yoichinoyumi + Patriarch Protector's Arrow
Yoichinoyumi + Demon Arrow
Loxley Bow + Rune Arrow


Keep in mind I didn't set any special conditions or exclusions for the combinations so if for whatever Reason the Arrow can't be used with the Bow it isn't figured in. Also the extra Attributes to the Bows were not factored this was a straight comparison of Damage to Delay.

Now with the data I have stating which are just Shortbows here is the top 10 I got there:


Master Caster's Bow + Kabura Arrow
Master Caster's Bow + Patriarch Protector's Arrow
Master Caster's Bow + Demon Arrow
Rosenbogen +1 + Kabura Arrow
Ifrit's Bow + Kabura Arrow
Rapid Bow +1 + Kabura Arrow
Sagittarius' Bow + Kabura Arrow
Bow of Trials + Kabura Arrow
Arco De Velocidad + Kabura Arrow
Rune Bow + Kabura Arrow


Anyway there's what I got from my simple gathering of data, if I had more data easily accessible without me having to format and change I could add more conditions to the test and give results to that. Made this info so if you really want to try out the other bows there's a list of which are supposedly going to result in the best Bow->Arrow combinations for best damage per second.

EDIT:
If you want me to try other conditions and give results to it so you got straight out number crunching of which seems best just give me the detail on how you want me to work this data. I can work it to display anything, such as restrict Arrows used, combine arrow and bow damage but only do ratio against bow delay, combine arrow and bow damage but only do ratio against arrow delay, which combined have highest damage, and which combined have highest delay.

If you want it to factor in other things like equate whatever +rng attack or +STR does to the numbers I'll need that created into a database or spreadsheet were I can take the data and dump it into my database and run the conditions on them. However you want to specify.

Finally yes the reason I've not included the other data is because there isn't any place that sets it in a database worthy configuration to use for mathmatic purposes. I'm also not going to spend my time to make one like that considering what time I have free can be very limited to do so.

[Caspian]

At first I figured those numbers were crap, Macht. Then did a couple myself, just had to remember to add the damage and delay first, not doing dps for each then add that. Low delay of Loxley takes advantage of the ammo better than E-bow and the others. I know you didn't add in the extras on the bows. With as much difference as ranged attack makes now, I think it could swing things in favor of E-bow and the other long bows w/o taking into account things like Barrage, WS's, and Rapid shot activation. I do wonder if Loxley + whatever ammo takes enough advantage of the TP floor to get enough extra ws's in to beat out other bows in that respect. Only shooting 200-300 sidewinders doesn't really cut it unless you're kicking out 5x as many as longbows.
Hope someone has time to xp with a couple of those (mainly Loxley), I'd prolly give it a whirl, but its gonna be a while before I can get back on RNG. Would be quite funny if we found out all the endgame uber rangers were wrong about E-bow being the best. :P
(I do doubt the extremely low damage on Loxley could even make a dent in mobs like Kirin and other gods/kings etc.)

[Omni]

i know this, you blow way more arrows to get the same amount of normal dmg from a loxely bow. 20 arrows to just reach 100tp. you would most likely use 1/3 of your stack just to get to a decent tp amount to let sidewinder go.

i remember an xp pt in kuftal on raptors at 60. my tp gain is on par with others using longbows but dmg is way off on sidewinders. thats where loxely gets beat. however, if you are using elemental arrows, i guess its a nice extra dmg boost since youre hitting so many times.


loxely i guess isnt a great example b/c its really unique. has anyone used the rng af1 bow vs battle bow?

[Balodoth]

Omni has a point about using arrows. And let's not forget enemy TP gain factor increases as weapon delay decreases. I wouldn't even want your database to try to calculate estimates, ranges, or anything of the sort for increases in possible damage taken from any particular enemy. I'm not RNG, but I'm willing to forego that extra damage if it saves the party from one more bomb toss.

Then again, anyone want to try this as RNG/MNK with a Rajas ring? LOL

[Khidir]

*noob* Wouldn't it be easier to just use standard wooden arrows to sort the more effective from the least?

[Caspian]

Since the delay on wooden's is more than kabura's, it would distort your results. Not to mention that the lower delay bows benefit from firing the high damage arrows faster than the high delay bows.

EDIT: Just punched in the numbers on Loxley and Wooden arrow, and E-bow and wooden arrow. Loxley has dps of 7.08, E-bow has dps of 12.46. The damage on the wooden arrow isn't enough to overcome the damage advantage E-bow starts with.

[Spider-Dan]

Just a note on the above, Master Caster's Bow uses shortbow graphics but is equippable by longbow classes (and has longbow DMG/delay). I don't know if I'd really consider it a shortbow.

DMG/delay ratios are generally pretty useless... I wouldn't bother with them:

72THF/NIN with dual Misericordes (D23/183) has a damage/delay ratio of 0.1478, 72RNG/NIN with Hellfire + Silvers (D122/900) has a damage/delay ratio of 0.1355. That means that according to the damage/delay ratio, THF/NIN would outdamage RNG/NIN without using Sneak Attack.

It's possible to get good DPS from a low delay weapon; machine xbow + holy bolts comes to mind, but even that is based more on the insane holy damage than the actual bolt.

[Caspian]

Just a note on the above, Master Caster's Bow uses shortbow graphics but is equippable by longbow classes (and has longbow DMG/delay). I don't know if I'd really consider it a shortbow.

DMG/delay ratios are generally pretty useless... I wouldn't bother with them:



It's possible to get good DPS from a low delay weapon; machine xbow + holy bolts comes to mind, but even that is based more on the insane holy damage than the actual bolt.

Is that b/c of the STR/DMG >> VIT check? Some sort of threshold you have to overcome before you start doing damage? Like why a Loxley woulnd't even scratch Kirin or Genbuu?

[Omni]

Just a note on the above, Master Caster's Bow uses shortbow graphics but is equippable by longbow classes (and has longbow DMG/delay). I don't know if I'd really consider it a shortbow.

DMG/delay ratios are generally pretty useless... I wouldn't bother with them:



It's possible to get good DPS from a low delay weapon; machine xbow + holy bolts comes to mind, but even that is based more on the insane holy damage than the actual bolt.

yea machine xbow + holy would probably do a better job than a loxely + w/e. holy bolt proc/dmg is great. 30-40s? i think the proc alone can best loxley bow dmg. ^^;


casp. my guess it is some sort of check. loxely dmg is so low that even with the best arrow, it just cant mathmatically clear the check.

[Macht]

That was the whole point I stated if someone wanted me to calculate it out differently just give me what formula you want and I'll slam it against my database.

My database is simply 2 tables with 1 query, the 1 query binds all bow to all arrows in my database and then formulates the results of their Damage and Delay to how I like. I'm not nuts enough to got and make the 1900+ combinations by hand when I can make two tables that are smaller to do that for me. DPS is the usual basics to figure if a weapon combination is good or not, like I stated I factored by various Ratios.

If you want me to be specific it was 3 types I labled Ratio, Ratio(30), and Ratio(60).

Ratio = Dmg/Delay
Ratio(30) = Dmg/(Delay/30)
Ratio(60) = Dmg/(Delay/60)

Spider-Dan you math is wrong there 23/183 is 0.12568306 not 0.1478....

Really though those 3 make no real change in their position, it was more to see what numbers in DPS look reasonable to what their outcome would come closest to. Factor in STR and the other stuff and of course those outcomes would change. I'm tired of trying to fight my research with others so I'll let the community run their head into it, gave you guys the stearing wheel for the formulas you just simply got to tell me what you want me equate out of it.

[Caspian]

I'm not nuts enough to got and make the 1900+ combinations by hand when I can make two tables that are smaller to do that for me.

Cheater, I was punching all the ratios into a calculator and doing it all manually. Took forever just to get a few different combinations.

I hope it didn't sound like I didn't believe your data. I said it looked off at first, but when I punched it in myself I saw where I had gone wrong and arrived at the same numbers you had.
I've been trying for the last half of the thread to see why everyone "swears" by E-bow and Selene's. Whether its just the big numbers effect, or if there's other reasons. (Small reasons being that you take more advantage of things like Rapid Shot, Barrage, and ws's. The big reason is that its harder for lower damage weapons to get past the dmg <> def check which ends up hurting more than firing fast helps.

One thing I just thought of is if you were firing more with a low delay weapon, your rapid shot job trait should activate more often. Don't know if it would be enough to make up for the huge bonus higher delay bows get from it, but it would be more often.

[Spider-Dan]

Spider-Dan you math is wrong there 23/183 is 0.12568306 not 0.1478....
You forgot to correct for Dual Wield II.

(183 + 183) * 0.85 = 311 delay per DW round
(23+23) / 311 = 0.1479....

The 0.1478 was due to a rounding error on my part (forgot to truncate decimal delay after DW coefficient was applied). The actual damage/delay ratio for dual Misericordes is 0.14790996784565916398713826366559.

[Macht]

You forgot to correct for Dual Wield II.

(183 + 183) * 0.85 = 311 delay per DW round
(23+23) / 311 = 0.1479....

The 0.1478 was due to a rounding error on my part (forgot to truncate decimal delay after DW coefficient was applied). The actual damage/delay ratio for dual Misericordes is 0.14790996784565916398713826366559.

Ahh I see, sorry but never bothered to keep up with the Dual Wield numbers and how it modifies. The point either way that was the whole reason I created this database took me 5 min. to set it up, especially since I excluded the extra attributes to the items. It was just purely taking Damage to Delay and having it ready to calculate any way someone would like.

If you wanted the attributes added to use for the calculations then like I said someone else will have to setup the attributes into a database worthy format for mathmatical use. Meaning you break it down to look something like how MysteryTour did with the food (http://mysterytour.web.infoseek.co.jp/ffxi/us/food/00att.htm).

Like I said getting Damage to Delay was easy Somepage provided a functional setup to strip that information to make my database, just their attributes were not formatted in a worthy setup to use and I'm not spending the time to get that info. My two tables are setup in the current configuration:

tBows (Table1)
Name [Primary Index]
Bow Type (Shortbow/Longbow)
Level
Damage [Index]
Delay [Index]

tArrows (Table2)
Name [Primary Index]
Level
Damage [Index]
Delay [Index]

Currently it's processing time clocked at 0.00001 so adding more to this should be no problem. I could easily create a Skill Level Table, Monster potential VIT range, and Monster potential Defense range to add and make an equation out of. Like I said I'm offering this so you guys can get a look at all the bows and see which stick out as an intrest to test or whatever.

If anyone really wants to take advantage of what I'm providing I put in spreadsheet format the data I was using and even added a few columns to help demonstrate the database format I'm looking for. If anyone really wants to takes this further here is the two spreadsheet for the two tables, fill in the data and send back to me with how you'd like me to use the data or what formulas you want me to try out and I'll shoot out results of it.

That way you get potentials to look at to see which bows look to be good or not and then test them in game. Anyway here is the two spreadsheets if anyone is really intrested in doing this, fill out the missing attributes to the Bows or Arrows and return to me and what you want me to do to it and I'll do it and send back the results.

Bows (Table1) (http://members.cox.net/tenyousei/Bows.xls)
Arrows (Table2) (http://members.cox.net/tenyousei/Arrows.xls)

EDIT:

Created a Table for doing Player Stat and Skill tests. Funny pulling just Archery range from 0 to 255 (I know it doesn't reach 255, I just got find what it limit was again) and it created out 507k different variations still processing time was only 0.00001. Like I said I'm giving this as a chance for anyone wanting prove out a equation idea to see if it flies with in game results.

Of course as it gets built more can easily add in logics to keep the data result down to more managable sizes.