RDM in Group = Lazy BLM & WHM

[forster]

This is the only thing that irks me at the moment about the RDM job, which I am growing to love alot.

Please dont flame this, it is not my intention to offend anyone, Im only giving my experiences thus far with the RDM job, I've mostly been playing BLM and WHM with previous characters.

OK, here goes.

Thus far in pickup groups with 3 melees, a whm and a blm (which has happened numerous times) I seem to be doing the WHM's and BLM's jobs as well as my own, while watching them idle or rest, and it's getting on my nerves.

I mainly see my job as an enfeebler for the first part, backup heal and nuke as required - but what I dont see my job as being is the main healer when we have a WHM in the party, and the main nuker when we have a BLM in the party.

I have and can fulfill the role of both when needed, and have been the main healer / nuker on more than one occasion which is fine, but when other members of the party slow down on consistent healing and nuking it is always left to me to fill the role, indeed I've been flamed for not healing in a party when our WHM is resting, and has been resting the whole fight on top MP having a conversation with other members of the party when they should be doing their job.

/fume

Am I wrong to be narked about this? I dont mind complimenting the other mages in a group with nukes and heals, but to do their jobs for them while they sit doing nothing is just too much.

It also narks me when mages dont use MP regen food or drinks, but that's a whole different story.

Bleh.

[Tsikuro]

This is the only thing that irks me at the moment about the RDM job, which I am growing to love alot.

Please dont flame this, it is not my intention to offend anyone, Im only giving my experiences thus far with the RDM job, I've mostly been playing BLM and WHM with previous characters.

OK, here goes.

Thus far in pickup groups with 3 melees, a whm and a blm (which has happened numerous times) I seem to be doing the WHM's and BLM's jobs as well as my own, while watching them idle or rest, and it's getting on my nerves.

I mainly see my job as an enfeebler for the first part, backup heal and nuke as required - but what I dont see my job as being is the main healer when we have a WHM in the party, and the main nuker when we have a BLM in the party.

I have and can fulfill the role of both when needed, and have been the main healer / nuker on more than one occasion which is fine, but when other members of the party slow down on consistent healing and nuking it is always left to me to fill the role, indeed I've been flamed for not healing in a party when our WHM is resting, and has been resting the whole fight on top MP having a conversation with other members of the party when they should be doing their job.

/fume

Am I wrong to be narked about this? I dont mind complimenting the other mages in a group with nukes and heals, but to do their jobs for them while they sit doing nothing is just too much.

It also narks me when mages dont use MP regen food or drinks, but that's a whole different story.

Bleh.

99% of Low-level players suck.
That is all.

[forster]

{Understood} {Thank you}

[maxgtr]

I don't even understand why they do that stuff, when you take the job of WM the main job is heal, period, cast dia for added damage when not healing. I've had to tell people even what spells to cast at times. I've ha to tell BMs not to melee after they cast cause it's about pointless, just step back and nuke, that's your job.

[forster]

I'll still throw the enfeebles if Im main healing if the battle is controlled enough, in the better groups Ive been in I have time to regen mana back to a decent amount using food and drinks to supplement myself, while still going for the bigger chains.

Im sorry the above was more of a rant than anything else, but I just hate getting stuck doing other peoples jobs while they idle their time.

I'm sure it'll change once I get more RDM only spells / skills, although Im not looking forward to being a refresh-o-bot, but it's just part of the job I guess.

[BurningPanther]

You've recounted a problem that has plagued(and still plagues), every Red Mage at some point. Especially in the lower levels, where the gap between the defining abilities of RDM, BLM, and WHM are still too small to be noticed, we can easily fill the role of the one or the other, often allowing the WHM or BLM in the party to become complacent and take out skills for granted. And of course, the melees never notice that our support role in haleing and nuking has radically switched to a main role, and are quick to blame us when things slow down or go awry. I can offer no remedy to this perennial dilemma, all I can advise is what I did: Stick through it if you think you can, and if not, bow out and leave the rest to struggle on their own. It's slow going for RDM at lower levels, but perserverance will pay off big the higher you level.

[forster]

Indeed, cheers BP ^^

[Jei]

you'll see lazy every jobs, no worry ^^

[Reincarnation]

I know how it feels, that's why I get pissed from time-to-time when I play as RDM. You learn to live with it though... I guess... -w-

[TheGrandMom]

Unfortunately, your going to run into this even in the higher lvls. I find that blms would rather die than cast a cure on party members. I've seen the blm be the only mage left and be resting or nuking instead of trying to cure the tank. It's funny when I play my blm and help with healing or with erasing, the whms always msg me thanking me or saying something like "Wow your the first blm that I've seen heal".

With whm's I see them resting with nearly full mp while I'm doing their job. Now while I don't mind healing in a pinch with my rdm or at the end of a fight to cap people off, I don't see why I should be main healing with a whm in the pt. But it happens, and often. I guess they feel because we have convert and refresh that we have an endless amount of mp...which is bs. I even had one pt kick the whm and get another DD since I was doing both jobs anyways. LOL When I'm on whm I never treat rdms in my pt like that. They get to do their job the way it was meant to be.

You will always run into pts that push you to your limits. People always try to get away with the least amount of effort if they can get someone else to pick up the slack. The trick is to not pick up all of the slack. Of course, you can't let people die but since the whm is responsible for healing, rest if you need to. Don't stand there waiting for the whm to stand and heal because as long as your standing he won't. As far as nuking, all your required to do as a rdm is magic burst if there is a blm in your pt. Rdms are versatile but that doesn't mean that other pt members should abuse that.

[Altae]

Thus far in pickup groups with 3 melees, a whm and a blm (which has happened numerous times) I seem to be doing the WHM's and BLM's jobs as well as my own, while watching them idle or rest, and it's getting on my nerves.

I mainly see my job as an enfeebler for the first part, backup heal and nuke as required - but what I dont see my job as being is the main healer when we have a WHM in the party, and the main nuker when we have a BLM in the party.

I have and can fulfill the role of both when needed, and have been the main healer / nuker on more than one occasion which is fine, but when other members of the party slow down on consistent healing and nuking it is always left to me to fill the role, indeed I've been flamed for not healing in a party when our WHM is resting, and has been resting the whole fight on top MP having a conversation with other members of the party when they should be doing their job.

/fume

Am I wrong to be narked about this? I dont mind complimenting the other mages in a group with nukes and heals, but to do their jobs for them while they sit doing nothing is just too much.

It also narks me when mages dont use MP regen food or drinks, but that's a whole different story.

Bleh.

The bolded part would irk me too. Despite how flexible a job RDM can be, whether you need someone to melee, black magic, or white magic on the SPUR OF THE MOMENT, you need a RDM. I'm not saying, "Oh, if there aren't any WHMs, get a RDM. Oh, if there aren't any Melee jobs seeking, grab the RDM, they have fast blade." No. But, despite the flexibility, it does not give the other jobs an excuse to sit there and suck in exp at the hard work of others while not contributing any effort themselves.

I don't see a whole lot of this happen at higher up levels, but lower level parties, it's understandable. People are not serious about their character's jobs until they really find some reason to want to level it up past AF equipment. So, the only advice I can give is to just bear with it and keep getting EXP at whatever chances you can. To level up your job so you can find better parties sooner and enjoy how a party with RDMs should work.

[Jethreal]

hey guys, I'm pretty new at the mage thing BLM 20 WHM 15, and I have a slightly different view to offer. I had no problem throwing a cure or 2 as Blm esp. if the tanks gone red but it's been a difficult time as whm, and I think this is why... 10-14 we had a PL, everyone loves a PL but I was a little worried. The critters aren't to tough yet I had difficulty finding the proper dynamic with a third party throwing cure II like candy. 14-15 was a tough group. No PL, just me and a BLM and RDM. We set up pull levels, tp=x pulling ____ . Anyway, I figure I have a good 5 levels to really get the job basics down and that's assuming we don't have a PL to take the pressure off. Now I ove getting PL'd but I do think it may produce sloppy playing because you have a player 40 levels higher than you to dig you out of a hole. I mean in theory the tank could be wearing nothing and still never die. Just a thought, I love the game and only wished I had bought it earlier. All of that said I'll probably get a LS member to sneak/invis me through Garl. to get snow effect for my ruby ....hmmmmm

[Akai]

well, as above, i was brd. blm did as he was supposed but didnt help heal. whm liked to use holy so i asked him to stop
he said no, and if we didnt like it to kick him
so, i decided not to heal at all
he had 720 mp and he used all of it but 50 after the mob died :x
i was doing like 50% of the healing with 150mp <_<

[Jei]

Whm that casts holy and Blm that doesn't heal to me have the same kind of mind set.
They just want to play the way they want and not really looking, or even caring the party as a whole.
well, just a matter of attitude imo.

[tdh]

Unfortunately, this isn't a low level thing. I've had parties where the BLM sub'd SMN, so they can't Cure. Then sit their quietly while the NIN eats a R1. Or the WHM seemed to rarely Cure the PLD. (Even had cases of over Curing the PLD.)

I have no problem pitching in, and as of late, the rare occasion I actually party with a WHM! (WHM last night actually MB'd our Light Skillchain on occasion.) I rarely all out nuke, unless we're trying to bust through to that Chain #5. But I've told the WHM to /heal while I main Heal so they can have MP to keep going. (Afterwards I just Convert and giggle to myself. Elvaan RDM having more MP than a Taru WHM. ^^)

But I've had a number of parties with WHMs and SMNs and I can't rest because they're not healing at all, running out of MP with 4 minutes left on my Convert timer. It gets frustrating as hell. That you're working your butt off, and the other mages aren't doing a whole lot of anything. Yet there's a stigma of how there are a lot of really bad RDMs, but a party ~needs~ one, so they put up with sub-par players. Yet there are other crappy mages out there, and you just don't hear any complaints about them. :vent:

[JeanRC]

99% of Low-level players suck.
That is all.

90% of the Lv50+ suck
85% of the Lv75 suck ^^

Seriously i dont know why people just cant do what they need to do well ;p
whm casting banish often, rdm not refreshing for whole battle,blm who only nuke and did nothing else. melee who after attacking go afk during battle and when mob move they are standing there hitting air,tank who dont voke fast enough at start or when mob go towards mages and still able to let mob hit mage 2 times.
I cant understand what they are doing ;p

Does it all boil down to skill? maybe brain or lazyness

[Kagerou]

I don't really understand. 99% of this game is not being retarded.

[Gwynn]

Honestly, I didn't have too much of that. True, there were a few instances where I've had to pick up the slack of a WHM or BLM, but I guess I just didn't care.

[Aeni]

Hey forster, I've been in the same boat with you before. Leveling RDM, BLM and WHM ... it's the same regardless of what I touched. Whenever I'm in the group as a WHM, the RDM and BLM starts slacking off and I end up taking care of enfeebling and DOT ... when I play as BLM, I end up being enfeebler as well as main healer ... when I play as RDM, I might as well be the only mage in the party, because it sure feels like that sometimes ...

Maybe it's no wonder I have to go on /anon all the time to ward off JP invites lolorz.

[forster]

Well, I guess Ill just see how it goes.

I purposefully started a WAR yesterday to see what the game is like from the other side of the fence, it's a shame that there are slackers, but it appears from other threads that they are in every single class in the game.

Thanks for your support folks, good to know Im not alone (as well as a little sad).

[sevenpointflaw]

Hi. I'm a White Mage... /duck... /em dodges tomatoes...

I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I get complacent. I'm tired, distracted, etc. It happens to the best of us, and usually one poke is all it takes to let me know I'm out of line and neglecting my job. Grab some caffine, get my head on straight, back in the game. I suppose this is to be expected from everyone. Some days, we're just... not in it. It happens.

Now, that said, I've also noticed the same thing, as well as the other side of the coin. I've seen parties next to mine where -every- time I look the WHM is on thier bum. Its one thing to be getting up and sitting down. But that's what I expect to see. Up down, up down. Its part of the MP conservation. Yet I do see parties with WHM on thier bums every other battle, and RDM's who are expected to convert every 5min (never mind the timer length! You should do it every five min!).

I guess I had it lucky. My duo partner for the first year of the game was a RDM, so while I don't play RDM, I've seen it consistantly.

And let me say straight out I -HATE- white mages that neglect thier jobs. If you have enough MP to keep the party alive, and be ready for the next battle, then you have enough MP. Period. You should -DO- something to help.

My parties usually go something like this. "Who Is Main Tank?" Alright. Haste them before every battle. I don't even give the RDM the option of hasting the tank. That's my job. Next, start battle. I don't enfeeb, I don't magic burst. I just haste the tank and cure to get a feel for how MP intenseive that party is based on everyone's play style. Go me.

Now as the party progresses, I almost always have extra MP, so I send /tell to the RDM, "Slow down on cures; don't help unless they low orange, and try not to cast bigger than me." It doesn't do much, honestly, but it does let the RDM know that hey, I'm paying attention, feel free to slack on the back up a little so I can pick up my pace a little.

Then I look at the haste cycle. -Usually- the RDM is hasting + refreshing. OMG! No shit, you guys are insane to keep that BS up. I wouldn't tollerate it. Anyhow, the point is the party is usually going fairly well at this point, and I have a feel of where I can fit in more Haste. So I start adding the melee into the haste cycle. Yes, this means RDM have to pick up a few additional cures but most keep casting the smaller cures like I asked before, which is perfect for me, and perfect for the RDM. Plus it significantly decreases the strain on RDM.

A White Mage picking up the whole haste cycle, IMHO, is usually a turning point for the party dynamics. Yes, I have a shit ton to do. So does the RDM, but at least its a little more balanced and things flow nicer all around. I make less mistakes by doing more because I have a -constant- patern to maintain now, not just intermitant stuff, and the RDM make less mistake cause they don't have too much to do.

IMHO, any white mage who doesn't go out of thier way like this is a lazy ass, and I'm right there with you guys when it comes to slapage. I don't mind if I spoil my name. I don't need other WHM doing it for me. XD

NOW.... the other side of the coin. As a White Mage, I main heal. Duh. And especially at higher levels, after playing it for so long, and -not- having a multi-role job, I honestly believe that any average player will have a better grasp on healing subtleties than an average RDM will. Likewise, a great WHM will have a better graps than a great RDM, simply because they have more experience.

My pet peve (related to the lazy WHM) are the RDM that expect to do so much, that they do it without realizing they bring it on themselves. I actually -play- this game. My MP, the RDM's MP, the BLM's MP, the SMN's MP... everyone's health... How fast the mob hits, what type of tank, how well the tank takes a hit, if its AoE, WS, etc., etc. I really honestly do consider all of this when I heal.

Now, when that NIN is borderline yellowy cause of a WS, there's a decent chance depending on circumstance that I won't heal. The mob just used a WS, it's TP is low, shadows are back up. I have a tick or two to rest before I stand up and cure that nin. But invariably, I stand up and start casting Cure III so I can follow it with a Regen II, and low and behold, that RDM casts cure IV.

Nothing a White Mage hates more than waisting a Cure III except maybe wasiting a Cure IV.

I guess its a fine line (sometimes) between complacency and smart playing. A lot of times, great players walk that line. Point then? Down with the lazy white mages! But keep in mind sometimes you guys (RDM as a whole) jump the gun with the Overtaxed card simply because you are expecting to be over taxed.

The way I see it, WHM should go out of thier way to help the RDM instead of bask in the refresh cycle.

[Last_Viper]

@evenpointflaw
your tarutaru looks very tired?? did he get enough sleep? :)

i like your way playing whm

i mostly haste the tank too (mostly because nin yes, pld no)

haste is a long timer to cast, so if whm casting it and tank gets hit alot, it`s time to panic ^^


@OP
yeah i think everyone knows this situation. we have the role that we can do a bit of all + things only we can do.
so we helping out.. sometimes i see i´m hasting the blm or refreshing the nin, thats my time where i need a break =)
i don`t cast much elementar spells, my skill is cap though, but i try to get the MB and sometimes`i do the big killer nuke lol
whm job, only cure. i go most of my times as rdm/blm. so no erase or /na spells.

[Karinya]

Generally when I party with my RDM, I ask the WHM who he wants me to haste. My view is that haste is primarly the WHM's responsibility (that's why they get it at a lower level than any other job), but that I'm willing to help out with it. Usually I end up hasting a DD or two, refreshing 3-4 people, enfeebling and MB, but only curing in emergencies (the whm usually has plenty of mp to handle the majority of damage taken).

A WHM can recover MP faster than I can (more clear mind trait, more time to rest) and has Cure V and +cure potency gear, it just doesn't make sense to try to take over cures from them. But my Haste is just as good as theirs and takes me less time to cast, so that's where I go first if it looks like the WHM needs help. If I cure at the same time as a WHM, or a PLD, and it results in overhealing, I generally consider that my mistake - "helping" them when they don't need it isn't very helpful. (Especially for the PLD, who was probably relying on that cure to build hate... as a PLD myself, I know how frustrating that is.)

If I expect a lot of damage or hostile status effects, I'll sub WHM to help out more, but otherwise I generally sub BLM for conserve mp.

On the other hand, with a SMN, a lot of this reverses. SMN can't haste and their cures are smaller and less efficient than mine, so I expect to be the main haster and healer with the SMN throwing some small cures (the only kind they have), na spells and maybe curaga between fights. This usually means I'm MBing less and not doing the occasional "die now so we can get #5!" nuke, but the SMN's other abilities generally make up for it. Also, of course, I have to protect the tank and puller; depending on the mob it's usually fine to let a lower tier protectra/shellra cover everyone else. SMN+RDM is a great team but it works very differently from WHM+RDM.

As for BLMs - they *should* be ready to help out the party with whatever is needed at a given time, but a lot of them aren't. Too many just don't have the right mental attitude to see where and when they can (should) be helping. Between-battle cures have 0 hate - but I see BLM with tons of extra MP that wait for the already-low WHM, RDM or SMN to cure people up (while they sit), then wonder why we're not pulling faster. Not all BLMs are like that, but a lot are.

[TheGrandMom]

Usually I end up hasting a DD or two, refreshing 3-4 people, enfeebling and MB, but only curing in emergencies (the whm usually has plenty of mp to handle the majority of damage taken).

Ditto. This is pretty much how I work in an average pt too.


As for BLMs - they *should* be ready to help out the party with whatever is needed at a given time, but a lot of them aren't. Too many just don't have the right mental attitude to see where and when they can (should) be helping. Between-battle cures have 0 hate - but I see BLM with tons of extra MP that wait for the already-low WHM, RDM or SMN to cure people up (while they sit), then wonder why we're not pulling faster. Not all BLMs are like that, but a lot are.

Yes, this is quite common. When I'm on my whm, I've seen some blms act like they have /war sub. Cure? Whats that? Boom down goes a pt member. I'm glad that I'm not like that on my blm. I use regen more than anything though. Even simple regen can work wonders on a DD that is only down a smidge in hp. Of course, you always hope the main healer is observant and doesn't waste mp curing them after you cast it. LOL

I have whm, blm, and rdm all lvled and its funny how much you can see from each job angle. I know on my rdm what my role is and I communicate to the whm anything that will overlap with what they may be doing. I also know when to not pick up the slack unless its going to threaten the flow of the pt. If that happens, I /t the leader and tell him/her they need to communicate to the whm that they need to apply themselves in that area. If the leader won't or doesn't do it, then I'll /t the whm and try to gently communicate this to them. The whm is responsible for the tank...period. They haste them, cure them, buff them, and erase or use -na spells on them. The only time I ever do anything for the tank is if the whm has no mp or if they are in the red and need an emergency cure. Rdm's are not an endless fountain of mp, it can run out. I find people that have played multiple jobs to a high lvl are more aware of the limitations and more tolerant.

[Aeni]

Yes, this is quite common. When I'm on my whm, I've seen some blms act like they have /war sub. Cure? Whats that? Boom down goes a pt member. I'm glad that I'm not like that on my blm. I use regen more than anything though. Even simple regen can work wonders on a DD that is only down a smidge in hp. Of course, you always hope the main healer is observant and doesn't waste mp curing them after you cast it. LOL

I once main healed a PT on Qufim as ... BLM/WHM. Do I get a cookie?

[Gman]

I once main healed a PT on Qufim as ... BLM/WHM. Do I get a cookie?

I main healed a PT in Gustav as blm/whm (lvl 38-39 ish) with Bomb tosses and cursed spheres... if you get a cookie, I get the whole bag ^^

Of course, there was a WHM in the party, but they were completely useless. No barfira, no curagas, let tanks get to less than 100 HP before curing, etc.

[silentsteel]

o.O I'm not even close to that bad on my down days. . . wow, if some people are gonna play, expect to work if you want something.

[nazlfrag]

Easy soluytion to lazy mages - go sit next to them. When the tank stops getting cured, everyone will look at the whm, not you. When the nukes stop flying, they will look to the blm.

[forster]

That's just the problem tho, in my humble opinion the tank should never stop being cured to some degree - Id rather do the curing job and let the nukes slide if im in a lazy party, rather than letting someone die to prove a point. Its not worth it.

The better parties I have been in since making this thread have really picked up the slack of the slowing of XP in the worse ones.

Im probably going to start the physical classes a bit more for the rest of the month, the MNK / WAR / PLD / DRK combo and see how it goes.

Thanks for your constructive replies folks, I dont feel so irked about it now.

[Aeni]

That's just the problem tho, in my humble opinion the tank should never stop being cured to some degree - Id rather do the curing job and let the nukes slide if im in a lazy party, rather than letting someone die to prove a point. Its not worth it.

Same here. I'm sorry, but I will not make party tank, who's probably doing a service and performing it valiantly taking the beat downs for the whole party, lose exp and waste his time just to keep dying to prove some "mythical" point in order to address a "community" issue, which may or may not interest the particular members of the PT that I am currently in.

[TheGrandMom]

I do something similar. I will rest and see if the whm will stand up and do his darn job. Of course, I don't let anyone die but usually the whm will get up and do his job. There are very few instances where they don't get up. So I really don't see a problem with doing that as long as its done right.

[Jei]

Makes me wonder... if I have 6 copies of myself and make a party together, will I get annoyed with my own play style ... o_O

[Aeni]

So I really don't see a problem with doing that as long as its done right.

You wouldn't do this when fighting Bark Tarantulas in BT ... omg no it's not going to be pleasant.

:wasted:

[TheGrandMom]

You wouldn't do this when fighting Bark Tarantulas in BT ... omg no it's not going to be pleasant.

:wasted:

Obviously its situational and you must be good at playing your job. But for a player with 1/2 a brain it can be done.