Elemental staves, NQ vs. HQ

[Johnny]

I'm not going to argue the issue on whether the HQ are worth the price increase over NQ, as this decision weighs differently for everyone. (Amount of gil you curently have and can make, current prices, rate of inflation on your server, etc...) Now for my question...

I have been told that the HQ staves have hidden effects that are above and beyond those of the NQ versions, and I'm not talking about an increase in the MAB for spells of that element. However, despite being told this several time, no one can give me any solid (or really any) information on what these effects are. I'm curious first if it is even true that they have these hidden effects, and second if anyone knows what they are. I know I could research this myself, but currently I'm pretty busy, and someone may already know, so why reinvent the wheel...

[neighbortaru]

err you mean like this? http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/2398

[Johnny]

Filter at work blocked it, but I'll check it at home. Thanks a lot for the quick response.

[Akai]

also i heard that it the HQ up abilities of the same color i.e., wind+1 makes steal go up

[kman]

Haven't heard of the steal, may be true but I will vouch for something that is missing on somepage and that's the improved magic accuracy on enfeebles. NQ = 10, HQ=15. The higher level the mob your trying to enfeeble the more noticeable the change. Try casting Gravity on Kirin, and you'll notice that your success ratio will go up if you keep count. Good luck.

[Taskmage]

This may just be perception, and I only got my staves recently so my sample size is admittedly small, but it seems like the staff that I'm wearing affects my crafting results in a similar way that the corresponding day does ...

[tdh]

This may just be perception, and I only got my staves recently so my sample size is admittedly small, but it seems like the staff that I'm wearing affects my crafting results in a similar way that the corresponding day does ...I've actually noticed the same thing, Taskmage. Another crafter told me about using the Staff and facing the correct direction can improve results. (i.e. More HQs, better Skill Ups.)

I have noticed a HUGE difference in landing and staying power of Enfeeblings with my Staves. I bought all of them. Some say it's sill to have a Water Staff for Poison II and now Water III. I would also like to have HQ of ever single one, even if it's just for Poison II and Water III. lol

I never had much problems with Gravity once I got my AF body. It was Silence that I had problems with. But Wind Staff, AF Body, and Enfeebling Torque I land Silence damn near all the time.

I loaned my Earth Staff to an LS member one night for Skill ups, and forget to get it back. Next day I had to EXP with out. I had problems landing Slow. I don't think I've ever had problems landing slow. Then again.... I was Lv.62 in a Lv.65-66 party. They were just hard up for a RDM. All my other Enfeebles landed though. I say they're worth the 1.5mil I paid for them. (Now costs about 3.5mil for all of them I think last I checked.)

[Weeeekujata]

landing point of view staffs improve it greatly, on proc/length i find the appropriate stats made more of a differance for enfeebles(ex slow+mnd,) its really hard to prove, but from personal notes. for example in monk parties, wind staff and about +50~ mnd my silence land and stay long, opposed to wind staff + enf equip. on the other note its also noticible that without the wind staff it has more trouble landing on lemures(each time i forget my wind staff)

I am problably talking out of my head, but for enfeebles i find it works like magic accuracy. I have no parse so dont take my word, other than it will land better.

as we know it gives 10% dmg bonus but does NOT help resist rate for nukes. which is something that may prove my perceptions. I wish apple pie still posted here, he might be able to come up with some formula to make it see the exact properties, math and theory isnt my best points XD.

Anyways if your a full time rdm, than by all means i recommend HQ. 15% is nice

[Johnny]

I have all the NQ staves and the HQ dark staff (Pluto's Staff). As I can afford them, since they are extremely expensive, I will replace all my NQ with HQ. Even if they didn't have hidden effects, I planned on doing this. I did already know about the extra 5% above the NQ 10% bonus, but the crafting bonuses and such I was unaware of. I kind of suspected the hidden properties might run along those lines though. Thanks to all of you for the quick responses and allt he information you provided. As always the Dreams in Vana'diel community steps up and delivers.

[Kilgraw]

Don't worry about HQ till you're 75 and are in the HNM/Sky scene. They're nice, but you don't really need that extra accuracy on exp mobs.

[Aeni]

I just purchased 4 staves tonight, but I'm nowhere near to equipping them :P I figure I should buy these NQ at the stupid prices before they go back up.

Dark Staff 60K
Ice Staff 40K
Light Staff 300K
Lightning Staff 35K

The other NQs were pricey. Water for 500K, Earth for about 400K, Fire for 700K and Wind for 800K. Gotta love the retarded economy on Hades.

:rolleyes:

[Jei]

that's a huge price gap.... what job are you planning to use them? blm or rdm?

[Aeni]

that's a huge price gap.... what job are you planning to use them? blm or rdm?

You're telling me! I think it's whoever is growing the ores. Someone is growing too many of one kind and that's why the AH is swamped (15 ice staff and 20 dark staff iirc)

Going to use at least the Light, Dark and Ice with RDM. I'm trying to get the set in case I level BLM, but in this thread, it seems that the whole set can help RDMs too...

[Sanim]

Dark Staff 60K
Ice Staff 40K
Light Staff 300K
Lightning Staff 35K


oO

Nice prices!! They werent that low even when I played (2 years ago xd).

[Jei]

ice staff is really nice to have for RDM as it helps with paralyze.
I think light staff is not neccesary, but is still definitely helpful to have.

Try to get wind staff. You may not need silence all the time, but when you need it, you want it to stick. BLM mob resisting silence a few times is ouchy ><

[Gwynn]

ice staff is really nice to have for RDM as it helps with paralyze.
I think light staff is not neccesary, but is still definitely helpful to have.

Try to get wind staff. You may not need silence all the time, but when you need it, you want it to stick. BLM mob resisting silence a few times is ouchy ><
It also helps out with Gravity immensely, which is important considering Gravity's shat-tast-ic recast timer.

[TheGrandMom]

It also helps out with Gravity immensely, which is important considering Gravity's shat-tast-ic recast timer.

Amen to that! My husband has the HQ and lands Gravity on Kirin 80% of the time while my NQ grabs me about a 55-60% rating. /em steals Daddio's staff!

[Taskmage]

Those prices are about what it was like on Lakshmi the last time I checked, except that it was Earth Staff at 800k and Wind at 600k or so.
Do put Wind Staff on your list for the reasons mentioned. Silence and Gravity aren't your most important debuffs in general, but you tend to notice a lot more when those get resisted.

[Rodin]

This deflation was great. I got a V. Claw before the deflation and sold it for 14million. Two weeks later I got another V. Claw, from the KSNM30 in Waughroon Shrine. So far I have 7/8 HQ staves. I decided to test the NQ against the HQ and see if they were worth it. As a 51 BLM, I tried it out. Not only was I getting more damage with the HQ (about 25-40 more DMG per spell, more with the MB.) I was also noticing a smaller resist rate with the spells. I'm leveling RDM at the moment until I can get clothcraft higher for BLM, since I want a self signed Demon's Cloak and Mahatma Slops. But anyways, I'm gonna test these out on RDM as well, and see if I can get a non-sucky resist rate, like I'm getting right now >_<

[Aeni]

This deflation was great. I got a V. Claw before the deflation and sold it for 14million. Two weeks later I got another V. Claw, from the KSNM30 in Waughroon Shrine. So far I have 7/8 HQ staves. I decided to test the NQ against the HQ and see if they were worth it. As a 51 BLM, I tried it out. Not only was I getting more damage with the HQ (about 25-40 more DMG per spell, more with the MB.) I was also noticing a smaller resist rate with the spells. I'm leveling RDM at the moment until I can get clothcraft higher for BLM, since I want a self signed Demon's Cloak and Mahatma Slops. But anyways, I'm gonna test these out on RDM as well, and see if I can get a non-sucky resist rate, like I'm getting right now >_<

m(_ _)m Please let us know of your findings. It's interesting to know just how well the HQ staves are over the NQ, but please test this on your RDM, since that's the job I am going to main on the second character :P

[Rodin]

My RDM is only 31 right now. But once I get it to 51 I'll download a parser or something. Even though I don't like to run any 3rd party programs besides windower. And hell, if SE would implement IME into NA FFXI, I probably woudn't even use that. But for enfeebling, I can tell you, on my WHM (75), I get more successes on IT mobs when enfeebling with my HQ staves, I just can't confirm a percent because I don't keep track. I also don't have capped enfeebling magic, I believe it's somewhere around 210. Once I cap it out I'll parse it on WHM as well.

[Aeni]

My RDM is only 31 right now. But once I get it to 51 I'll download a parser or something. Even though I don't like to run any 3rd party programs besides windower. And hell, if SE would implement IME into NA FFXI, I probably woudn't even use that. But for enfeebling, I can tell you, on my WHM (75), I get more successes on IT mobs when enfeebling with my HQ staves, I just can't confirm a percent because I don't keep track. I also don't have capped enfeebling magic, I believe it's somewhere around 210. Once I cap it out I'll parse it on WHM as well.

Thank you. :thumbsup:

Oh and congrats on your VClaw. I'm 0/11 (Yes, LOL ... not just with my KSs >.>) with that BC. I think I blame not having a THF or even sub THF, but what do I know. >.< It could just be plain bad luck that nothing that was worth over 150K dropped in that insanely long night of doing nothing but Operation Desert Swarm fights (I think 8 hours)

[Ghostraven]

don't forget wind staff helps with sneak and invis

[Rodin]

You know, I've actually been macroing in a wind staff, and now an Auster's Staff for my sneak and invis macros. I just haven't noticed any difference in the duration of my spells.

And thanks Aeni. I haven't gone with a THF or with anyone as /THF. It seems to be random. A friend of mine is 1/2. I've personally seen the claw drop 5 times out of 12 times doing the BCNM. I don't think it's a rare drop, just takes luck. There's honestly better KSNMs you can do which will drop better items, it's just this one is easy as hell, especially since I have a semi-set I do it with. NIN NIN SAM RDM WHM(me) and we pick up a BLM. Everyone says I'm lucky as hell, but everyone that I know that is 0/11 or so on that BCNM always have it manaburned. I think if you can pwn that BCNM in 3 minutes, the drop rate lowers. Just a theory of mine.

[Icemage]

don't forget wind staff helps with sneak and invis

This is not true. Neither Wind nor Auster's Staff help Sneak and Invisible in any way (though Skulker's Cape does).


Icemage

[Aeni]

Okay ... I have a simple question.

Why is a Staff (Elemental) more favorable to use with an enfeebling spell over those wands that give uber (+MND, +INT) stats? I'm talking about NQ staves please ... this should be about 90% of all mages out there.

(1) Using an Ice Staff I saw no increase in nuking power. I actually saw an elemental spell lessen in strength due to using the Ice Staff (I can't recall which one in particular, but I'll go back and run some tests)

(2) Ice Staff with paralyze don't get resisted much. Good, right? Wrong. My paralysis only lasts 5-8 seconds with this "crutch." Good for landing but the duration sucks (Going back to those spoons again)

(3) Gravity with Wind Staff experiences the same problems as paralyze with Ice Staff. I believe the trade off for sticking a spell is not having the duration of the spell. Also, the more times you have to stick something during the battle, the more chances of each subsequent casting in succession being resisted.

I'm sorry, but as a Mithra, I see no advantage of these staves over my spoon. About the only two I care about right now is light (cure potency really shows) and dark (for healing up MP)

[Icemage]

Okay ... I have a simple question.

Why is a Staff (Elemental) more favorable to use with an enfeebling spell over those wands that give uber (+MND, +INT) stats? I'm talking about NQ staves please ... this should be about 90% of all mages out there.


IF you have no problems landing your enfeebles without them, then by all means tack on a +INT/MND wand and go to town. Unfortunately, the occasions when this occurs in an XP party are rare, since it's difficult to land enfeebles on IT's without all the help you can get (I've got +10 Enfeebling Magic from merits plus staves and IT enemies still laugh at me every once in a while... and my batting average goes waaaay down if I don't swap in the right staff).


(1) Using an Ice Staff I saw no increase in nuking power. I actually saw an elemental spell lessen in strength due to using the Ice Staff (I can't recall which one in particular, but I'll go back and run some tests)


Ice Staff helps only Blizzard nukes in power, aside from the +4 INT. What it does do is make sure you get fewer resists, due to +10 Elemental skill. However, on Aero spells it actually makes them weaker since the drawback to Ice Staff is weaker and less accurate Wind element spells.


(2) Ice Staff with paralyze don't get resisted much. Good, right? Wrong. My paralysis only lasts 5-8 seconds with this "crutch." Good for landing but the duration sucks (Going back to those spoons again)

If your Paralyze spell isn't lasting very long, it's because you're fighting IT++ enemies that are getting 1/4 or better resists against you. Ice Staff helps you land and stick those, but it's not going to guarantee anything. Your results can and should be much worse on Paralyze without Ice Staff in these cases.


(3) Gravity with Wind Staff experiences the same problems as paralyze with Ice Staff. I believe the trade off for sticking a spell is not having the duration of the spell. Also, the more times you have to stick something during the battle, the more chances of each subsequent casting in succession being resisted.


Your impressions are very much wrong. Silence, Slow, and Paralyze stick at the same rate and duration regardless of how often you use them. Only Sleep, Bind, and Gravity are affected by repeated usage, and you're never going to notice this effect in an XP party since it takes many castings before it kicks in.


I'm sorry, but as a Mithra, I see no advantage of these staves over my spoon. About the only two I care about right now is light (cure potency really shows) and dark (for healing up MP)

Well, play it however you feel. I know that *I* see a very visible difference in spell accuracy when using the correct elemental staves, and that's good enough for me.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Wands will increase the potency of most spells (make slow stronger, make your nuke for more damage, etc) but the staff increases the accuracy of the spell, making it less likely that your spell will just bounce off or only last for a very short duration. Once enfeebles stick there's supposedly nothing you can do to make Paralyze, Blind, and Gravity more effective, so all we can do is shoot for less resists.

For your nukes, using the matching staff is supposed to increase your damage by 10-15%, which is more than you could hope to achieve with an INT bonus.

If that information doesn't line up with your personal experience, I don't know what to tell you. "Common wisdom" isn't always correct, but in this case I think a lot of people would say their experience contradicts yours.

[Aeni]

Wands will increase the potency of most spells (make slow stronger, make your nuke for more damage, etc) but the staff increases the accuracy of the spell, making it less likely that your spell will just bounce off or only last for a very short duration. Once enfeebles stick there's supposedly nothing you can do to make Paralyze, Blind, and Gravity more effective, so all we can do is shoot for less resists.

For your nukes, using the matching staff is supposed to increase your damage by 10-15%, which is more than you could hope to achieve with an INT bonus.

If that information doesn't line up with your personal experience, I don't know what to tell you. "Common wisdom" isn't always correct, but in this case I think a lot of people would say their experience contradicts yours.

Well, I think Icemage explained it better with regards to IT++ mobs. I seriously do not think that everyone has the same experience, unless everyone else fights T mobs onry. Which I find that hard to believe. :rolleyes:

But yes, there is no real noticeable difference with these elemental staves on RDM. Maybe on a tarutaru BLM with the MND and INT stats that are already above excellent overall (And therefore will not miss the spoon going to staves) What galls me is that there is really no way to increase m.acc and m.atk directly at these levels and even if there were a couple of really odd ball rare/ex or rare items, the prices or sheer lucridity is just too much for a new account to deal with on a first job through past level 50...

SE needs to address this issue with providing more crafted items (either through food or equipment) to remedy this situation. It's not that these monsters are super IT either ... in some cases, I encounter this problem on "optimum" ITs (The point before exp goes into the crapper when you're struggling for only 130 exp per kill)

[Icemage]

... uh... Taru have the lowest MND of all races. I buff it up to acceptable levels, but beyond about +20 it stops having any effect on resists.


Icemage

[Patchinko]

Deja vu: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red.mage/36282-elemental.staffs.debuffs.html

Can anyone recommend a good parser to me? I'd like to test it when I get Patch back.

[Caspian]

ffxi.somepage.com has some parsers if you go to the bottom of the left bar and click FFXI Links.

[Aeni]

I think where there's a problem is that people tend to overlap results from different sets of testing and then come to some conclusion that supposedly benefits everyone around.

This thread was about NQ versus HQ. Of course, the testimonies given seem to indicate that the HQ staves are worth paying the money for -- for the most part.

What I need to know is just how effective an NQ stave is compared to the HQ counterpart. If the HQ is every bit superior (we're talking miles apart) and the NQ does NOTHING for the average player, then isn't it a waste of time for a RDM to get a stave at all if it's not HQ (Again, outside of the Dark Staff for MP healing and possibly Light Staff for that boost in curing) Where I'm concentrating this discussion now is towards RDM enfeebling.

The key here is to not have any other pieces of m.acc+ and m.atk+ equipment on. Higher levels who do the testing will skew the results because they have access to all this, plus they've merited AND probably have many skills capped all around, which may or may not matter.

What I want is the test from an average Joe. These seem to mirror my own results better than some level 75 RDM who got 75s in other mage jobs and got tons of *pimp* gear that would make Bill Gates jealous ....

[Taskmage]

Given that you seem unwilling to trust the data and experience of others for possible faults in their methodology, why don't you pick up a parser and collect some data for yourself? ffxi.somepage.com has a link to a commonly used one.

[Aeni]

Given that you seem unwilling to trust the data and experience of others for possible faults in their methodology, why don't you pick up a parser and collect some data for yourself? ffxi.somepage.com (http://ffxi.somepage.com/) has a link to a commonly used one.

Because it will only confirm what I've said here ... ? Seriously Taskmage, even parsers have been known to spew errors (Reason why I stopped using them when I once added all the damage from my chat log and compared it to the parser and the parser exaggerated my output by about ~20% ... among other things)

And I do run my own tests. My tests are coming off of IT-IT++ Robber Crabs (To a level 53 RDM) while I duel box my 2nd account to tank the Robber Crabs. This way, not only can I filter out everything on one box and leave it unfiltered on another (To check to see if FFXI's own filtering system can sometimes output inconsistencies) but also I'm able to make checks with one account and not have to worry about dying so much (What was some other people's methodology of using BST to charm? That also introduces unknown in the data)

My second set of test will be more fun. Abs-spells ftw. -MND and see what happens. -INT and see what happens. Etc.