Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

[Galaxia]

Hello everyone

Before I write the rest I want to make sure everyone knows THIS ISN'T A FLAME POST!

Right so they havr finaly added a new Avatar Diablos which I'm sure alot of people are happy about... But the draw back is gonna be the same as it was with Fenrir. They have made Diablos very difficult to get unless your a pretty high level. So is it gonna be "Diablos" "Do you have it?"
"No thanks" scene?
I remeber having to go for Fenrir with my LS at lv 35 lol FUN TIME FOR ALL!
was actualy really fun Fenrir chased me and they chased him back. Kinda like Scooby Doo! Anyway I know the Summoners without Fenrir have a hard time getting Partys somtime cause of it! Personaly I don't use the lil puppy that much, A dispel and buff here and there thats about it! But it seems that Summoners without Diablos will be made into Healers again! Although I refuse to be a main healer I know Summoners hold too much power and destruction to be used to heal! I come really close to same dmg to BLM of same lvl and about 60% of time I out damage the BLM which is nice cause I get invites to old partys which is great cause I know my role hehe. But to put a job thats so powerful and gains very little to no hate in the area of healing seems like such a waste! Why give a job ower of destruction and not allow them to show it?

[SlizenDize]

First of all no one cares about Diabolos because hes not good for much, fenrir on the other hand canbe very efficient with his buffs.


And it's not strange that Summoners act as main Healers before 65 sure they do the same damage as blm... once every min.
You can never MB as much as a unresisted BLM can and a BLM can small nuke in between BPs when you are just plain useless unless you Heal.

If a 75 BLM MB with Thunder IV he would do about 1500-1800dmg. In order for a Summoner to achieve that amount of damage you would have to score a critical hit and trust me that wont happend everytime.

Morale of the story. As 75 Summoner I can be a DD sure but i'd rather main healr because then I know that I will get more exp and I can still toss in a Spinning Dive now and then.
SMN, RDM, WAR, WAR, WAR, WAR in sky ftw.

[Galaxia]

I've never had a problem getting a DD role in a pt as Summoner, But saying that I never really wait longer then 30 mins for a Party. Always seem to egt invites because I have made a good rep for myself as a DD. Personaly I don't use SMN as a Main Healer, But that doesn't mean I won't heal! I just won't main heal! As for getting exp I have no worries there as I level up very fast.

[Tiamat_Zero]

Hmmm. even hearing about this I still want to become a summoner, though it will be a while till i can. But this info is good to know.

[Kardor]

ya Diabolos isnt all the blow.
As for me his Debuffs seem to stick less often to ITs than Fenrirs and against weaker mobs (TW-EM) hes also weaker than Fenrir.

I guess in later game (beyond 65 my current lvl) or in BCNM he might be fairly more effective if his Nightmare for ex. hits.
Dont bother too much bout getting him in the early game if u can get him due to a coincidence take the oppertunity but dont care for him that much.
If u dont get pts atm coz u dunt have him just be patient the hype around him will cool down fast and ppl will return to normal.

Bout the Main Heal, iam fine with that as long i dont have to be Cure3 Slave for a Paladin - for that sux.

P.S Who ever is finding Errors can keep em^^

[Tiamat_Zero]

It does suck that this job seems to get the short end but untill they make the avatars stronger people will only let a summoner in if they can heal thats why when I can become a summoner healing will be secondary to getting my character leveled up. So I'll be fighting right there with the tanks.

[SlizenDize]

I've never had a problem getting a DD role in a pt as Summoner,

Then you don't need to main heal, so whats the problem?

Always seem to egt invites because I have made a good rep for myself as a DD.

Then you don't need Diablolos, again, whats the problem?
I want diabolos but only because I want to feel that i got everything as a Summoner, not because hes very good.

[aegina]

there are, what, eighteen jobs in this game right now? with more to be added. out of eighteen jobs there is one-only one-dedicated healer job, and that's white mage. did se really intend 2/3rds of all the pt's formed to have no healer? i don't get it.

we made summoner into a healer job out of a desperate attempt for survival. this game has too many dd's and not enough tanks and healers. i'm sorry, but when i invite a summoner to main heal because there is not one white mage online in the entire server at my level range, and i see him summoning and leaving his pet out to melee, i get really annoyed.

a summoner is one of those useful, versatile jobs. it can heal, backup heal, or dd. a summoner who refuses to heal is a summoner who is limiting what his job can really do-change roles if needed. which is a lot more than some jobs can say.

[Galaxia]

Each SMN to there own but I really don't see how a non smn can demand anything when they don't do the job.

[Medalink]

a summoner is one of those useful, versatile jobs. it can heal, backup heal, or dd. a summoner who refuses to heal is a summoner who is limiting what his job can really do-change roles if needed. which is a lot more than some jobs can say.

I have to say i agree. As a Summoner I do anything in the pt I can to speed things up. As SMNs main healing with a NIN tank does not require alot of Cures. We are good about once per 50-60 seconds. Thats when we can do 1 thing, buff, debuff, cure, dmg, etc. In between that time whats the problem with tossing in a few cures? leaving your avatar out for dmg is stupid. Only viable reasoning is to leave it out for TP. And with 40-60 tp MBs are nice.

In ALL my pts I do the same thing no matter why I am invited.

Barfira (Gobs)
Acc, Eva Buff
MB
Cure anytime if needed.

With a NIN tank I dont mind there being no WHM, you, the blm, and the rdm can all share the cures and maybee cast 1-2 per fight if you all 3 work together. I never main heal, I never DD, I allways do EVERYTHING I can.

Honestly haveing a whm in the pt with smn is stupid. That being said ONLY witha NIN tank. I can understand a whm w/PLD but nothing else. Allmost every party I go in either say wow good job, or I never seen a SMN do all that. Thats what I strive to do. Not limit myself cause I can do 200 more dmg by not tossing in a cure III or two.

Medalink

P.S
Each SMN to there own but I really don't see how a non smn can demand anything when they don't do the job.

I am SMN69 and WHM58 So i can state my input. Others can know jobs without playing them.

[BurningPanther]

To be sure, Diabolos is an excellent addition to a summoner's roster. The Nightmare attack, in addition to his AoE "Phalanx" skill, are extremely useful.

But being without Diabolos is hardly a big loss. Granted, having Fenrir, as well as Diabolos, would be big help, but the other avatars offer enough that a Summoner will always have a place in a party, whether as gimp healer at lower levels, or bitchin' DD at higher levels.

One thing's for sure, you will never see me turn down a Summoner for not having Diabolos.

[SharMarali]

When I first got Diabolos, I'll admit, I thought he was completely worthless. However, now that I've had some time to mess with him, I find Noctoshield to be a godsend. One of the great curses of SMN is that we ARE usually saddled with main healing, which doesn't bother me in and of itself, but we ONLY HAVE CURE THREE. Works fine with a NIN tank, but it's a bit trickier with a PLD tank, especially one with a relatively small MP pool. Phalanx cuts the damage that PLDs take to a degree such that it's actually EASY to keep them alive with cure 3. We have Eclipticl Howl for NINs and now Noctoshield for PLDs... Just another tool to help us keep the tanks alive ^^

[Galaxia]

It's a shame the Summoner role isn't like the older games, There always said to be highly respected for the ultimate power of destruction in older games and in 10 they were the ultimate saviour of the world! But I understand they couldn't over power them like the older game there has to be some level of balance even if it means Summoners lose the respect of destruction but we gain the respect of having the ability to do more then a set target. Although SMN used to be slagged off alot before there upgrade now we are looked upto by the other support groups such as RDM. I have had alot of RDM's thank me for helping them with healing etc when a WHM wasn't around. Basicaly show off your damage but show them what else a Summoner can do!

[Karinya]

SMN still are the ultimate power of destruction... 2-3 times every 2 hours.

Ifrit was never feared for his ability to punch things - his true power is, and always has been, Inferno.

Now, of course, a job's normal playstyle can't be based around its 2hour (something SE recently realized with DRG). So SE added blood pacts to give SMN something to do when they couldn't access the full power of their avatars. And then they added avatar melee, with bonuses for avatar TP.

SMN is an interesting job that can contribute to a party in several ways, but if you try to use them *just* as a substitute WHM, they are a poor substitute. Yet, as you point out, having both a WHM and a SMN is often overly defensive. SMN + RDM is a good combination if the players work well together - the RDM has big cures for emergencies and full strength protects for the tank and puller, and can sub WHM to get bar spells if necessary, while the SMN has the unique SMN abilities and a huge manapool to keep up a steady supply of small cures and the occasional curaga. But if the RDM doesn't know how to adjust (or refuses), the party will do poorly and possibly blame the SMN for not doing everything a WHM is supposed to do - which they can't, of course, because they're not one.

A party doesn't need "a healer". It needs enough healing and protective magic to keep it alive. That can usually be provided by one WHM, or by two or more other characters working together (while each also doing some other things), one of whom may be a SMN. Two "half healers" can be as good as one whole one - in some ways better, since they can rest in shifts and may have stacking buffs.

[Kalel]

Dont Give up on Summoner yet. Its great job. All Square needs to do is make any new avatars a lvl 60 spell or higher. It will keep people from overflowing job with noobs just to have new pets to show off. And keep away from the fiasco of not having Fenrir keep you from getting party invites. They mess up again with Diabolos as lvl 1 spell. Althought it does have prerequisite of completing COP 3-5 first (beating Diabolos in 40 cap fight).

[xiozen]

When I got Diabolos I felt like everyone else; what's the purpose? But just like others, u spend time experimenting and finding out what each ability does... and I've come to realize Diabolos is a unique avatar; to be used in specific circumstances.

Fenrir is great...no more than great, AWESOME... and I rely more on Fenrir than most other avatars for various reasons.

As far as healing... many smner's don't wanna heal... well why not.. forget I asked... Just do it. Your not a direct dmg until upwards of lvl 70... no matter what you think.. and you know it. But many just want to believe they are something else....when it's clear the job doesn't come into it's own until after lvl 70... (this was soooooo obviously intended, you'd have to be blind not to see it)

Get ur summoner past lvl 70, then while ur in experience party's feel free to DD and heal whileyour bloodpact timer is counting down... versitility baby!

[lionx]

Disagree..SMN have good buffs and also can nuke decently until the higher 70s, so for alot of their lvls, they are lower than BLM, but higher than RDM, but can also heal a little worst off than a RDM would, yet have unique buffs. I dont see where that you are a SMN only at 70 attitude..its not all about raw damage or being gimpy WHM.

[xiozen]

Smner's are gimped until lvl 70.. plan and simple... trying leveling it, you'll see... but I can understand the sympathetic attitude seeing that ur a whm.. ;p go figure! ^^

[lionx]

I might try lvling SMN to see. However i would appreciate if you dont tell me how i feel about the SMN job.

[Karinya]

Probably Xiozen leveled up SMN 6+ months ago and doesn't realize how much it has changed since then (not just the introduction of new avatars, but the adjustments to avatar accuracy, attack and blood pacts below level 70). SMN attack abilities used to be nearly useless, but they're not anymore. I've out-MB'd BLMs on several occasions - despite the fact that BLMs can improve their damage with +INT gear and SMN can't (as far as I know). BLM become insanely strong at high levels, so don't expect to keep matching them for MB damage, but for a while you can.

Fenrir and Diabolos certainly have their uses, especially in high level content like Dynamis, but I don't think they are really needed in low to medium level exp parties. Of the two, Fenrir is probably better for most situations; he's also *significantly* easier to beat.

But I wouldn't turn down a SMN for not having them, either. If there were two SMN of the same level looking, I might pick the one that has them, if I don't have any other reason to choose between them, but that's about it. I don't know about your server but it's rare to see two SMN (of similar levels) lfp at the same time on mine.

[Kalel]

Lionx if you want a job that keeps you working for something constantly, keeps you busy and never be bored with, interesting story background, cool pets, be a great support for party than smn is for you. I can honestly say, I can never be bored with smn job because you have to quest or fight for everything for your job whether you magic (smns), equipment etc. I also recommend fighting all avatars in 60+ battles so you can use mini forks for teleports to smn crystals whenever you need to help someone fight them.
There is not alot of people who can take the constant work you have to do to be summoner. But Lionx, I think you got it in you to be a great summoner.

[tazirai]

Smner's are gimped until lvl 70.. plan and simple... trying leveling it, you'll see... but I can understand the sympathetic attitude seeing that ur a whm.. ;p go figure! ^^

I comepletely disagree with this statement and people who make statements like this.
If everyone thinks a summoner is limited to curing and bloodpacting every 50 secs. SUCKS as a summoner and has no clue how to play the job.

I consider myself a career Summoner, basically summoner is the job i play as 95% of the time. I think I know Summoning better than most summoners. Thats not being big headed, its being unlimited in what i allow myself to do.
In a Exp situation before ANY avatars were added I got to 50+ as a Summoner with just carbuncle. Im so good with using him I can put others to shame.

Summoners are not gimped until level 70. We are useful every level from 1-75 and fully merited.

As for me I didnt have the issue of not gettign invites because of not having fenrir, I had a good reputation on ramuh so my skill took precedence over my avatar.

Lets take the little green rat for instance.
Most people think carbuncle is useful for...well nothing.

Healing ruby .. Great low cost healing and targeted healing while staying out of main melee.

Poison nails great way for the rat to status a foe and or start or close a renkei.
In BC and during solo fighting and PT situations with a 3rd melee. You have a status inducing skillchain thats MB'able. also cheap.

Shining Ruby is so underutalized its sick. Think of a BC situation where the first provoke or so can make the difference. Ive used this as a boost to tank defense and it works wonders durign the crucial first few seconds.

Glittering Ruby I must say is rather bland in its randomness. Where as fenrirs power is better suited.

Level 55.. Petit meteor ^^ lovely. GREAT to MB and cheap also Healing ruby is good to use to handle links, MB, gain hate and you can keep rat in the fray to gain some TP.

65 is where carbuncle gains immortality.. With healign ruby II he can AOE heal himself and others. This makes the lil fellow near indestructable. In a PT situation this and Petit meteor make him EXTREMELY useful.. and if you have the right gear free.
With healing ruby II, which can be boosted by the amount of TP gained, Hes much more effective than the Summoner/whm-rdm, that summoned him. By being inthe heart of the fight he can MB, Skillchain start/end, and Point Blank curaga1-2 with NO hate gained to him or you. and say you are fighting goblins or some such with nasty Aoes, this makes you the resident squishy..less squishy.

Non BP roles are pulling and aggro management.

As a summoner with the free rat. You can fetch a monster while your melees kill off the last one, and rat can take a beating until melees are ready to begin. by taking a beating he gains TP which can heal the melees with no risk.

Carbuncle being free means that in emergency situations where you hav elitle to no MP means it takes 5 MP to resummon him if you have the time.

You can do alot as a Summoner with EACH avatar, people tend to thinkin a pack mind. and the pack says a summoner can only do ...this..

I say differently.

[Kardor]

Ya totally agree
Summoners ARE probably the most Powerful Job in the whole game, you just have to stop assuming Power with damage.
GA - Type Partybuffs
GA- Type DE-Buffs
Full Status Boost
Hate Free Healing
Hate Free Damage
Link Free Pulling
Damaging 2hrs which can be used 3 times

If you still insist Summoners are weak and gimped - you just dont want to see it.

[Kamodake]

/applaude Triel I agree 100% with you. I have seen Triel in action for over a year now and it truly has been an amazing learning experience. SMN is truly as she said it is powerful, versatile, and horribly misunderstood. Bravo triel~

[Miriamel]

Summoner is a very versatile job. But just as any other job, you should adjust to your party's needs when you play summoner. The difference between a decent and a good player is realizing what your party needs and what you can do to adjust to these needs.

I like playing DD when I get the chance - quite a lot of parties actually want me to. With a NIN tank I can main heal and MB at the same time just fine. I don't mind being full support either, though... summoner gets a lot of powerful buffs. I'll say it again, be versatile.

[Telera]

I've been in many partys up to this point in my summoner career where I have been asked to DD. That includes MBs, starting SCs, and *leaving* my avatar out for the duration to add to the damage output. But then I've been in other parties where I've been asked to heal and I'm fine with that, because they do still let me be a summoner. I've never had a party tell me I could or couldn't do something with my avatar. Now, when I'm on main heal, just out of my own preference, I don't leave the avatar out. If we've got a WHM who I can see is on top of their game, I will leave my avatar out, but still toss out cures between Blood Pacts just to help the lil guy/gal along. And because I don't have much else to be doing. And if things get hairy, I send the thing away and the WHM and I work together to get everyone's hp back in top shape.

I do hope that SE makes some changes to avatar power (I could care less about more avatars) so that more parties will allow us to keep our avatars out for damage, instead of just buffs for them. Something that will make people look for WHMs to heal (this would require changes to WHM too, I believe, something that would give them a bigger edge over RDM and SMN) and let the other jobs do as they please.

But I never refuse when asked to main heal. Because I personally like playing a WHM so it doesn't bother me. It's easier on a SMN for the tank to be a Ninja simply because keeping up with a Paladin is tougher, but I've been main cure for both kinds of tank (or no tank at all x_x) and if you manage what you've got efficiently (cures, Blood Pacts, the entire bit) then you can pull it off with flying colors.

[Shirai]

Why avoid summoner ._.?
My entire summoner career I have been a happy summoner simply because of the sheer versatility of the job.

I've been in parties where I heal, where I buff/debuff, where I dd even parties where I was the puller.
Next to that we can solo things other jobs don't even dare to touch.

As for being a gimpy healer, I simply refuse to believe that.
Carbuncle's healing ruby does wonders and Leviathan's spring water can cure most status ailments.
Just have Carby melee along to build TP and healing ruby can par a cure III for only 8MP or even a Curaga 2.5/3 for the MP cost of a Curaga II without pulling the mob an inch toward our fragile bodies.
the only times I refuse to main heal are when there is no back up or when I don't feel like it.

As for Diabolos, I never had any problems getting invited to a party for not having him.
I got Diabolos at lvl 72.
I don't use him much in exp parties but a lot of his buffs do wonders.

[Palom_FF]

To be honest, I really view SMN as a "second job." Levelling WHM to 75 first taught me a lot about PT mechanics and mob behavior that was really crucial for levelling SMN. And regardless how good you think you are, SMN will always be second-rate in an EXP PT. You have to be at the top of your game to stand a chance.

[Kornera]

smn has their own way of doing things, just like this lil kid....


http://www.geocities.com/korneraofcerberus/babyeyes03.jpg

any arguments, he might need to start chasing you down. :shocked:

[Credos]

Diabolos is the only Avatar that can do a ranged attack, this makes him great to have for endgame events on Kited mobs, if the tank cannot afford to stop for a second.

[Tirrock]

I'd just like to point out that I really like this Palom_FF guy. He thinks like I do.

For Credos: Here's a mini-version of what was discussed in the OP's other topic on this forum...

SMN were capable of doing good damage to kited monsters before CoP was even out. Diabolos didn't suddenly make it so SMN could fight kited monsters. He just made it easier. Nether Blast is magical, and all magical avatar moves are a bit ranged. Rock Throw is the only true "ranged" blood pact that I know though. It's physical and can be fired from a distance. >_>a

My opinions: I honestly have no idea how I leveled SMN. I did it before avatar magic bursting (and double slap royally sucked back then). Even after it...I don't know how much I'd want to level it up to 70+ again. Almost all of the merits I've gotten have either been from WHM, because it's easier to level and quite often, more useful. It's much easier to keep my MP pool up as WHM than it is as SMN. (Don't forget, melees do good damage too!) And roaming parties as SMN are just headache enducing.

[Credos]

Tirrock, I'm well aware that SMN were able to hit kited mobs with Avatars before Diabolos. I was merely addressing the statement that he was not a worthwhile avatar.

[Tirrock]

Sorry, I just see a lot of people saying how diabolos is a must have on kited HNM. I see the words "diabolos" and "kite" in the same sentence and I feel compelled to post.

[Greenith]

I quite agree with Karinya

I have lvled my Smn in a static from 20-65 so far.

In our Static we have a Nin/war War/nin War/nin Rdm/Blm Blm/Whm and Smn/Whm


My role has changed several times over the 45 lvls. at lvl 20 i was doing more SCing with the Melees, and occasionaly MB as well. I would also leave my avatars out to melee, and also had enough mp for the next battle to redo it all over again. by the time i was in the 40's i was purely doing SCing, and letting my avatars melee (mainly carby since have carby mitts). Though my damage wasn`t as great as it was in the 20's in 30's.

Of course throughout all the lvls i would assist heal with our RDM, or Duo Heal (where we both do roughly 50%).

Once i reached 47, i started spamming stonekin and some of carby buffs (one that increase stats) but quickly turned to just using Stonekin in between battles, and helping with the SC, so BLM could MB.

I reached 55, and Carby started being quite a DD. I wasn`t able to MB with Carby, sine our weapons didn`t allow Light SC, ore the mob wasn`t weak to Fire (Fire Light SC). But i would start the battle off with Meteorite, (which did pretty good damge, sometimes getting 50% resisted). and after 55 secs, would use it again (plus all the meeling would increase my Tp for Carby, and thus increase the BP)
Meteorite was doing around 400 dmg with some tp, so it was quite good. though if need i would still do SC to help with the MBing also (wither at the beginning or end of the battle)

then 60 hit, and i had access to Tier 4 nukes for avatars. I do believe these nukes are underrated, and they can pretty much take you all the way to 70 with decent DMG.
My strategy would be, summon the avatar at the start of the battle and use a Melee BP straight away (for added tp) then just let the avatar meele even more. By the time my BP was up, the mob HP was around 60%, and that is when the team would start a SCing. At lvl 60 i was doing around 500 dmg - 550 dmg without any tp. BUt once i was lvl 64, and let tp build a little bit, my damage would be around 650. Now if you add that plus the Blm Fire III (whihc was around 500-600 damage) the mob would be pretty much dead (since the sc would take 600-800 dmg off also).

Now at lvl 65, i am loving Fenrir lvl 65 BP, since i do not have to operate on a MB timer. And my total damage is around the 2nd highest in pt, since i don`t get any hate .

Obviously though that kind of damage is a team effort since our rdm keeps me refreshed, and does most of the healing now. our NIn is making lifew easier for the healers, since not many hits. and the BLm also cast debuffs on the mob which helps out great.


I just wanted to share my experience with everyone, and like to add that i have no problem in buffing people and giving out cures. But i do believe we can do DD and cure at the same time (if we have a rdm in pt also, since duo healing). If it is just a BLm and SMn, then that is alot harder, since you don`t want to add any kind of extra hate to the blm in the first place.

I also parsed alot of my exp lvling over time, and at lvl 60-65, seem to be doing around 1000 dmg average per fight

[Atma]

There are two main issues with smn:

1) They are not really capable of doing any "significant" damage till 55... and even then, it's questionable, and
2) All avatars outside of the "main 7" are, quite simply, too hard to obtain. (And before you argue, remember that SE has basically straight up admitted that the fenrir fight is far harder then they had intended it to be, and are simply not fixing it cause "it would upset those that already had it")

I really hate the opinion that SE seems to have about summoner that it is an "endgame" job. The fact that in order to get fenrir and diabolos you need to either 1) suffer through 69 levels of being a "gimp SMN", or 2) level a DIFFERENT job to 70+ is really anathema to me. Summoner needs to be balanced like every other job. My proposals would be:

1) Fix Summoning Magic skill. I think about every smn can get behind this one.
2) Smooth out the damage curve. Double punch should be doing more like 350-400. Double slap should be doing 450-500. Meteor should be doing like 500-550. the 70+ are fine the way they are, although one could easily make the argument these blood pacts are overpowered.

Any new avatars added for ToAU NEED to be obtainable at 60, otherwise they are in no way, shape, or form any sort of fix whatsoever.

[Darkhound]

Summoner is a difficult job, and IMO we are in between, all of us that have leveled it to 75 have had to adjust to different situations, whether it is healing, buffing, and some damange in later levels, it is a rare but fun job and i really respect those who have leveld it!

[Telera]

There are two main issues with smn:

1) They are not really capable of doing any "significant" damage till 55... and even then, it's questionable, and
2) All avatars outside of the "main 7" are, quite simply, too hard to obtain. (And before you argue, remember that SE has basically straight up admitted that the fenrir fight is far harder then they had intended it to be, and are simply not fixing it cause "it would upset those that already had it")

I really hate the opinion that SE seems to have about summoner that it is an "endgame" job. The fact that in order to get fenrir and diabolos you need to either 1) suffer through 69 levels of being a "gimp SMN", or 2) level a DIFFERENT job to 70+ is really anathema to me. Summoner needs to be balanced like every other job. My proposals would be:

1) Fix Summoning Magic skill. I think about every smn can get behind this one.
2) Smooth out the damage curve. Double punch should be doing more like 350-400. Double slap should be doing 450-500. Meteor should be doing like 500-550. the 70+ are fine the way they are, although one could easily make the argument these blood pacts are overpowered.

Any new avatars added for ToAU NEED to be obtainable at 60, otherwise they are in no way, shape, or form any sort of fix whatsoever.

Amen. Just amen.

Summoner is what I always wanted to be when I started this game. So naturally, it's my first job to 75, and I'm essentially screwed as far as Fenrir/Diabolos go unless I find people willing to take me (which is dangerous and unlikely), or be 'gimp' until I can handle the fight as part of a party.

That or level another job to 70 just so I can level the job I would rather be doing, which is a prospect that would likely leave me quitting the game. Anything they add to our Summon list later would be better off obtainable at 60-65. Because those of us new to the job who pick it as a first main... we're just screwed unless we leech majorly.

[tazirai]

Sorry I do agree with Atma on most of what he's saying But i dont think Summoners are Gimp without the doggie. Just my Opinion..

[Greenith]

i believe, that people only think they are gimped, is because between 40-55, damage aint so great, but liek others have said, our strengths just change. If you are duo healing with a RDM, you'll both be great together. For oneyou can help out with SC (then the rdm will be healing) then when the RDM is MBing, you can help with healing. RDM can help more with debuffs, and SMN can help more with Buffs etc etc.

I find if people just rely on smn to do the healing and thats all, then we are gimped. But if we are healing with a RDM, we will shine, since we can still do our BP fine, and receive Refresh on top of that. Plus most likley you wil have another 3 melee jobs, so including the smn, you will have 2 SC a fight. And if the last member is a BLM, it will be perfect for MBing the mobs. Otherwise have 4 melee doing SC, and SMN + RDM doing MB (since when SMN does the actual MB, it only takes 1 sec, so you can cover the rdm, and the rdm can cover you summoning an avatar.

The only real drawback is avatars Missing BP, but after lvl 52 (i believe) you will have a little help from AF1.


Anyhow here is some good examples of pt situations, and what the smn should do

1 tank (nin) 3 melee, RDM, SMN = Smn MBing and Buffing team, plus healing
1 tank (nin) 2 melee, RDM, SMN BLM = Smning SCing, and buffing team plus healing
1 tank (PLD) etc etc = MBing or SCING, but using the BP from Diablos, for Phalanx
some pt setup + WHM= same Deal as before, except wont get benefits from RDM


I highly recomend having a RDM in PT though, since we can work well together (asuming decent rdm and smn).

Other situations could include having a BRD or COR, in which case, you will need to concentrate on healing a bit more, but if having a Brd/whm, then can help heal when summoning an avatar. While with Cor, you might get away having another RDM anyway, since they can be a melee DD (i assume)

[Darkhound]

I agree with Tazirai.... and after reading one of her posts about summoner and playing with carby, I must admit that her proposal is VERY amaizng and I have learned to use it myself. When i get to be the main healer i use carby and i have alot alot of fun! It has given me a new way and perspective to play summoner!

[Greenith]

i reckon just leaving out carby would be quite fun, esp since he is free, and a kind of favourate avatar ^^.

ill though ill just add this, but another tactic i used for awhile (if you have mp to spare) is to summon a spirit before the puller gets back, then as the puller gets back (assuming he didn`t get much hate back) dia the mob, (or if puller did get hate cast cure on puller). Anyway just try to get hate for a split second and your spirit would cast a spell in half the time it normally would (and the timer would start as soon as you summoned the spirit not when the you got agroed ^^)

this tactic is good if your pt wants you to DD mainly, and you are between the 40-55 lvl range. If you have a rdm/blm, or blm, try and get them to cast the spells that the spirit can cast also (the debuffs enfeeb etc) so that all the spirit can use is the DD spells. Otherwise, if you dont have a rdm or blm in ot, least the mob will get some decent enfeebs on it too lol

[Atma]

Sorry I do agree with Atma on most of what he's saying But i dont think Summoners are Gimp without the doggie. Just my Opinion..

I don't think they are either Tazirai... I should have clarified, I'm referring more to the perception held by other players that you are a "gimp".