weapon of choice for RDM

[nothed]

What is the best weapon that I can get as a RDM lvl 26.
I want to inflict the most damage per swing, and be able to use it with speed as well.

[Fliegar]

I have yet to play, still at my dad's :P, but wouldnt a sword be best? I've heard they're fast enough.

[Caspian]

If you insist on meleeing, then use a 1h sword. Its the best rated weapon you have. Honestly though, you should quickly be getting used to the idea that you won't be meleeing for much longer. More usable spells means more time spent casting and recasting and less time in melee range. Plus, a lot of mobs will start getting more and more painful AOE attacks, making the dmg you do to the mob greatly outweighed by the damage you take and the MP needed to keep you alive. If you decide to not melee, then I'd look for some clubs and staves and such that give you +MND and +INT for curing and MB'ing nukes and enfeebles.

[Balodoth]

Probably Auriga Xyphos is what you are looking for. Go to Fort Ghelsba and just keep on killing the Panzer until you get the NM that drops it.

Otherwise I have to agree that you will want to start spending more time casting and less time meleeing.

[Ghostraven]

when you arent casting you should be resting, not meleeing... sorry but this is the way of the rdm in typical exp parties.

If you want to be a meleeing rdm, sub nin for dual wield, solo, or form your own parties. Expect to be frowned upon though. /shrug

[Hyrist]

He's level 26, he melee skills are not apsolutly terrible yet. (If I can outmelee a Warrior/Ninja in ballista at level 30, (as a rdm/nin) then I dout its much worse at level 26 with /mage)

Stick with 1h Swords, I cant remember whats the best sword for that level.

There is truth in the aspect that you should get accustomed to not using a sword in expirence parties, however this dosent come into play untill around level 35-41, where your casting duities will become consiterably more.

However in my opinion, you should not start to develop a proper resting stragity until after you obtain refresh, so you dont get a false prestence as to how much resting time you actually get when you manage your convert timer AND your refresh cycle.

Other than that, if you really want to keep swinging a sword, look into skill up parties and soloing.

[Armando]

Swords are your best bet. However, everyone else is also correct in that RDMs shouldn't melee in EXP parties. You can't keep up with the melees without eating meat dishes. If you're eating meat dishes, you can't take advantage of cookies or pies. Not only this, but you can always nuke harder than you can swing, and you're losing valuable resting time if you're meleeing. If you really have spare MP, just assist with some backup nuking/healing. I know RDM/NIN can do some awesome things in Ballista, but that's hardly the same as a RDM in an EXP party ^^;

[LadyPeorth]

Keep a Wand (for status and nukes) and a Sword (you're in the "Before refresh" days so meleeing is okay). Start each fight with enfeebles, then melee. Heal after every battle (saving TP on purpose is a no-no). Long as you do this, and they don't ask you to stop meleeing...you can melee as much as you like.

[Fliegar]

Sorry for the noobish question, but what is refresh? Mana regen or something?

[Armando]

Yup. THE mana regen. There's around 5 you'll find commonly: Refresh, which is 3 MP every 3 seconds for a total of 140(?) I think, available to RDMs at 41; Juices, usually 1 MP/3 seconds with a long duration or 2 MP/3 seconds with a shorter duration, these don't stack and are hard for most people to use constantly, and will overwrite (as well as be overwritten) by Refresh; Mage's Ballad, a BRD song, 1 MP/3 seconds, available at 25 for BRDs; Auto-Refresh, a level 25(?) SMN job trait, I think it's also 1 MP/3 sec; Equipment with Refresh effects, these are, however, only available in the 60+ levels, and are more often than not ridiculously expensive. Basically, most people won't spam juices back to back, Mage's Ballad is nice but it's still the lowest possible MP regen rate and requires you to have a BRD, you won't be seeing refresh equipment for a long time, and you probably won't sub SMN in an EXP party...so Refresh is a very big milestone for RDMs, it makes them a necessity, simply because of how powerful the MP regen is.

[nothed]

when you arent casting you should be resting, not meleeing... sorry but this is the way of the rdm in typical exp parties.

If you want to be a meleeing rdm, sub nin for dual wield, solo, or form your own parties. Expect to be frowned upon though. /shrug

I need the weapon for solo work. In parties I do not get into the fracus, I stand back and cast.

[Gwynn]

Go with Sword. There are some very nice Swords out there, and Spirits Within is excellent for solo-work against high-DEF mobs. Then again, if you really like En-spells then you could just get a low delay Dagger and go to work. Depends on your personal preference really.

[Altae]

At level 26, you can afford to melee and cast. But don't forget to rest up your MP. Meleeing is okay, but you're still a RDM, and not a very good one without MP. Same thing applies to higher level parties. You can melee, but without MP you're just wasting yours and everyone else's time.

Edit: And for weapon of choice, a one handed sword.

[tdh]

RDM has the same skill in Sword and Dagger. With cap'd Enhancing Magic, a Platoon Dagger with Enfire can do a lot of damage. Delay:150 hacking away would be faster than a Sword, and in the end out damage the Sword. At Lv.64 I use a Hornetneedle and Enfire on most things. I have access to Haste so it speeds things up considerably.

At Lv.26 I didn't do any solo work. Well, solo EXP work that is. For farming I'd say go with a Sword. Use your MP on Enfire, maybe Blaze Spikes, and Regen.

Lv.30 was when I started my heavy equip swap macros. I still meleed at Lv.30 but there was no TP since I was changing from a Wand to a Sword for spells. The Lv.18 Wand +1 is nice. I believe it's INT+4 & MND+4. At Lv.31 I stopped doing any melee at all. At Lv.60 I started doing Skill Up Parties so I could learn Spirits Within. At Lv.60+, I've only seen one RDM try to melee, and for some reason, as soon as they did they went from a usefull RDM to a useless one.

[ultimaknight]

Well, I'm a lvl 31 RDM and personally stick with Rapier class swords. Mainly because I think they look cool with the RDM, but also because they have a smaller delay than some of the other 1h swords. But like many here have said, I find myself doing a lot less melee work in EXP parties.

I do some meleeing just to keep up with my sword skill because I don't want it to get to far behind. Plus, when I do I usually go the route tdh pointed out. I typically cast Blaze Spikes, Enfire, and Regen so that I can do some damage without lossing to much HP.

[Icemage]

He's level 26, he melee skills are not apsolutly terrible yet. (If I can outmelee a Warrior/Ninja in ballista at level 30, (as a rdm/nin) then I dout its much worse at level 26 with /mage)

There is truth in the aspect that you should get accustomed to not using a sword in expirence parties, however this dosent come into play untill around level 35-41, where your casting duities will become consiterably more.


RDM and WAR actually do comparable damage with 1h sword at this range.. but not vs. a WAR using a great axe. Close? Yes. Same? No.

Ballista is one thing. XP parties are another matter entirely. What are you XPing on at level 26-30? Yuhtunga Mandragora and Goblins most likely.

In either case, you don't really want to give them any more TP than absolutely necessary. While you can still deal a bit of damage with enspells + a sword, it's counterproductive if the extra TP you give the enemy triggers an additional Bomb Toss or Dream Flower.. especially as you're now in area effect range instead of being safely out of range like you should be.


However in my opinion, you should not start to develop a proper resting stragity until after you obtain refresh, so you dont get a false prestence as to how much resting time you actually get when you manage your convert timer AND your refresh cycle.

Other than that, if you really want to keep swinging a sword, look into skill up parties and soloing.

There's never a bad time to learn rest timing; I'd MUCH rather someone rest a lot before they learn Refresh and then realize that they're spending too much time casting to rest than deal with someone who spent the entire time before Refresh swinging their sword in vain at monsters who are increasingly harder to hit and damage.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

RDM and WAR actually do comparable damage with 1h sword at this range.. but not vs. a WAR using a great axe. Close? Yes. Same? No

Ballista:
A Warrior with a greate Axe In ballista fighting anything, let alone a RDM/NIN, is asking to get pwned. The delay on the weapon is too slow and a miss can be deadly, a pair of axes (or swprds) are far better use, even at that level capp.

And I find the use of G.Axe in the Jungels questionable, more often than not I find users of G.Axes to miss more often than not. And at these levels Warriors are still called to do Tanking duities. (Making /nin and shorter delay weapons more prefrable) The introduction of Double Attack, at this level, however, brings their damage potential in either case beyond that of a Rdm. (even enspells cannot compare to an occasional double attack)

However there is something to conister: The use of daggers in exp parties at this level is (In my opinion) Worse than the rdm's melee impact upon the party. The more frequent hits. (Remember, the mob TP gain is your TP gain +3 without subdel blow, which dosent kick in /nin at this level) cause a quicker TP gain to the monster, at minimal damage, even including weapon skills (As of this point even THF's do not have a steller enough dagger weaponskill to chain with SA for damage)

As opposed to a sword, which deals more damage per hit, with less TP gain to the monster over time, with an addional magic damage effect that does not give tp, unlike a nuke would.

However I agree with you on the issue of Dream Flower and Bomb Toss. Luckily Bomb Tosses occasionally fumble, and Mandragora do not always use Dream Flower (Though they still use it enough to annoy me so terribly.) When it comes to this issue, I would tell the rdm to defer to the opinion of their party leader. If they dont want them to melee, then sit in back and use a wand. Otherwise, if the party leader is ok with it, then enjoy your last few levels of meleeing in exp parties.

[Aeni]

In either case, you don't really want to give them any more TP than absolutely necessary. While you can still deal a bit of damage with enspells + a sword, it's counterproductive if the extra TP you give the enemy triggers an additional Bomb Toss or Dream Flower.. especially as you're now in area effect range instead of being safely out of range like you should be.

I'd like to believe you on this, if it wasn't for many incidents that cause me to believe that things such as Bomb Tosses are not TP driven ...

Like in the Dunes the other day, the Gambler tossed 3 bombs in 10 seconds ... I seriously doubt anyone can equip tons of +haste at that level to give so much TP to the gob that quickly ... mind you, 3/6 in the party were non-meleeing as mages ...

I have quite a collection of stories which counters the argument that giving more TP to a monster is counterproductive. I believe some abilities may be TP driven, such as Spike Flail ... but some other monster abilities might just be SE's way of hamming it up ...

Edit:

Unless monster's WS have their TP costs severely reduced. Say, 25 TP for a bomb toss ... which would be aggravating to say the least :angry:

[Armando]

You underestimate how much TP mobs get. It's said that they get your TP gain +3. A mob will always out-TP anyone else by natural means. Sometimes you don't notice because they won't fire off their TP moves immediately above 30%, but below 30% they use their TP immediately as soon as it hits 100%. When you have 3 people hitting the mob, its TP shoots up very fast. Honestly, we should just be glad they don't use their TP each time it's at 100% all throughout the fight, or we'd be all screwed D:

And if using a Great Axe is asking for a pwning, dual-weilding axes isn't very far off. The delay is the same, just that axe swings are divided into two. Why not just single weild? Makes it a lot harder for anyone to try to recast Utsusemi, and you don't lose anything except an extra hit in your WS. On the plus side you get a shield, which'll neglect the extra hit in their WS, and then some.

[tdh]

I've wondered about mob TP gain as well. If I get hit by a mob, I get 2.x% TP each whack to my doom. When I hit something with a sword, I think I gain 6% with my AF Sword. Now I expect the mob to gain different TP depending on their delay much like we do, but they can't gain TP like we do from a physical hit. I've seen 3 Gobby bombs drop in side of 15 second. Even with a MNK, TP build shouldn't be that great. (PLD, MNK, DRK setup.)

I've also seen a Crawler Cocoon damn near back to back. I mean firing off before the Dispel timer was up. Even if all 3 people Double Attack, that's 30%TP at most from melee attacks. We need a way of finding out mob TP to actually test this.

[Icemage]

If you all don't believe me about the TP, go test it yourself. It's not hard to do if you know what you're doing - there's posts about it scattered across this forum.

Every melee/ranged attack that we hit enemies for, they get X+3 TP, -1 per level of Subtle Blow. So if you hit an enemy with a sword that gives you 7 TP per hit, you give the enemy 10 TP per hit.

Magic spells that deal damage give a flat 10TP per spell to enemies.

This is easily verified with a Beastmaster - just hit a monster once, then have the beastmaster Charm the creature and check its <pettp>.


Icemage

[tdh]

If you all don't believe me about the TP, go test it yourself. It's not hard to do if you know what you're doing - there's posts about it scattered across this forum.

Every melee/ranged attack that we hit enemies for, they get X+3 TP, -1 per level of Subtle Blow. So if you hit an enemy with a sword that gives you 7 TP per hit, you give the enemy 10 TP per hit.

Magic spells that deal damage give a flat 10TP per spell to enemies.

This is easily verified with a Beastmaster - just hit a monster once, then have the beastmaster Charm the creature and check its <pettp>.


IcemageThey get TP from Nukes as well?? That's cheating!

I didn't realize they gained TP that way. That's messed up.

[Hyrist]

Icemage is correct on this. Unfortunatly it also causes a slight discrepency in MOB TP gain in earlier levels as some classes get Subdel blow early (Like monk)

Daggers, a double edged sword here, give and receive more TP over time than Sword, simply because of the delay to TP ratio gained. (Swords on average give 6-7, Daggers give a steady 5, however daggers can be profoundly faster than swords.)

The biggest problem I see at these low levels is simply the line we draw as effective use of damage per TP gained on the mob. In my opinion, swords (especially any sword with added effect of damage) is mostlikley a beter scorce of damage per tp than dagger, even in the hands of a THF. Which is why I dont objects to rdms weilding swords in the Jungles. I simply find it more appropriate than even me as a Ranger Dual weilding daggers. (However I prefer to have daggers out between the quick 10 tp I can gain if it gets close, and the ability to parry an incomming attack, but I generally stay out of melee range for ranged attacks.)

Anyways, what I find difficult is the Mob to MoB TP gain issue. I've seen Mandys and Goblins be able to use their WS's not even 2 seconds into the fight...

[Taskmage]

Simple answer to the original question: follow this link and pick the weapon with the highest DPS.
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/advanced-search.php?job=rdm&limit=4
Give preference to weapons with lower delay to make the most of en- damage and take weapons with an accuracy bonus when you can. In my experience, additional effects on striking are overwritten by en- spells and should mostly be ignored.

[Aeni]

If you all don't believe me about the TP, go test it yourself. It's not hard to do if you know what you're doing - there's posts about it scattered across this forum.

Every melee/ranged attack that we hit enemies for, they get X+3 TP, -1 per level of Subtle Blow. So if you hit an enemy with a sword that gives you 7 TP per hit, you give the enemy 10 TP per hit.

Magic spells that deal damage give a flat 10TP per spell to enemies.

This is easily verified with a Beastmaster - just hit a monster once, then have the beastmaster Charm the creature and check its <pettp>.


Icemage

Then explain this .... if players knew about this, what would be so great about having RNGs in PT? One would assume (pre-patch) that with dual wielding, low delay (for faster TP gains) and xbow spamming RNGs (two or three in a PT) the monster would be "penta" spamming it's JA/WS every 3 seconds. However, that was rarely the case and I've been in 2x RNG PTs before and did not notice this difference.

I think this is a bunch of crockery as there is a big difference between whether or not a monster gains TP any more or faster and whether or not the monster will use the TP, once it has enough to use it.

Also, since you said something about magic spells that do damage giving TP as well, then this will include enfeebling spells, since spells like Dia, Bio and BLM's frost, etc. spells cause dmg, noticeably dmg initially and then over time. You think by your logic, mages shouldn't even cast at all, period, as they risk giving monster a lot of TP ... again, this is all phoey and I seem to think whoever devised this kind of argument did so on the basis that he/she was biased in his/her opinions and was grasping for straws trying to explain his/her biasness to others.

The hard fact remains: my own experience have said that this was never an issue before, never an issue now and shouldn't be an issue in the future.

[Armando]

Thing is, BLMs can easily outdamage a two-handed weapon swing while giving it less TP. And yeah, I do agree it's generally a non-issue. I'm not gonna invite people based on how much/little TP they give to the mob. However, there's still no reason for the RDM to feed 9 TP to the mob for very weak damage when he could've been nuking for far better damage and giving it 10 TP. There's also no reason for the RDM to feed it 9 TP per swing for little damage when he could've been kneeling for MP and putting it to much better use (backup cures, nuking, or simply making MP for the next mob.) And there's no reason for the RDM to feed the monster 9 TP per swing for little damage when the mob is below 30% and using TP moves every 10-20 seconds ^^; I just can't find a good reason why a RDM would want to melee in an EXP party.

[Hyrist]

Right, but in this crcumstance, (20s-30s) Rdm dosent suffer such a disadvantage in damage, infact they do signifigantly more than any dagger weilder at that level.

The only reason I would have them NOT melee at that level is simply to rest more.

I meleed up to my 40s, it was at about 35 when I noticed a very signifigant gap in my melee damage (including enspell) Knowing how heavy my mage duities were, I equipped a wand, and left it at that (Still meleing from time to time depending on how the party was settup) But I'm still looking closley at SE's updates to see if they are sneaking more stuff in to make it easier for rdms to melee exp.

As far as a reason why RDMs would want to. RDM's get alot of false advertising. Their image is protrayed as a magic fencer, who weilds a sword and a shield, not wand and staff. Even during its early levels they are encouraged to use melee weaponry, and alot of their job-unique skills point them into the combat direction, with emphasis on endurance. Add that, and the history of Red Mages through Final Fantasy that has always protrayed them as a Hybrid mage, it takes an older fan alot more to accept the fact that its better to put the sharpy playthings away when working in a group.

[Armando]

Why daggers, though? Their WS are so mediocre without SATA compared to sword. And I still feel the RDM would be a disadvantage simply because of lack of melee food. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one :3

[Reincarnation]

I know this really doesn't matter, but.... Notice how any question asked will alwaks lead to a larger topic which in doing so will lead to an argument.... ^w^;

[Lunaryn]

I do agree, it's becoming an increasing annoyance for me about how it's nearly impossible to have any real discussion about strategy for the various aspects of play in this game, because the moment you open your mouth about any possible combination that is not the one tried-and-true approach to that main's role in standard XP parties, people will jump all over you immediately, whether you are interested in strategy for xp, missions, bcnm, solo, etc. There is an incredibly strong XP-party-first mentality in all talk about playing in this game, and within that something of a standard-pickup-party-first mentality wherein for any given level, there is one place where you shall level, a specific set of mobs you will target, and almost the entirety of the role a party expects you to play can be summed up in your job/sub. While the ability to operate in this manner has clear benefits, especially in an environment where you may well need to operate with complete strangers and even face a language barrier, the attitude that this is the only way the game shall or may ever be played presents a detriment to those who would explore other facets of this game besides the usual xp grind.

This is not to say that such discussions of alternate situations do not occur at all. I have been in some interesting and frank discussions of various alternative situations and strategies for aspects of FFXI. However, a common feature of these discussions is that they invariably begin with an explicit condemnation of the idea of using such strategies in an xp party, and each individual to join the discussion usually issues such a condemnation before adding their take. This seems to have just become part of the FFXI culture, but it is incredibly irritating at times and I suspect has driven some people away from the game. "There's only one way to play the game" is a common complaint about FFXI, and while it is not literally true, the way in which this attitude toward xp parties is expressed I believe helps to further the perception.

It would be some progress if one day when people hear me talk about subbing something non-standard, wearing unusual equipment, taking non-standard actions, etc., their response is "You're talking about (soloing/doing a BCNM/doing ballista/etc.), right?" instead of "Don't do that!" or something to the effect.

[Icemage]

Then explain this .... if players knew about this, what would be so great about having RNGs in PT? One would assume (pre-patch) that with dual wielding, low delay (for faster TP gains) and xbow spamming RNGs (two or three in a PT) the monster would be "penta" spamming it's JA/WS every 3 seconds. However, that was rarely the case and I've been in 2x RNG PTs before and did not notice this difference.

Non-NM Monsters do not immediately use their TP when they have 100%+ until they hit 25% of their max HP or below. Until then, it's only "occasionally" checked - 25% by my recollection, but I may be misremembering the exact proportion.


I think this is a bunch of crockery as there is a big difference between whether or not a monster gains TP any more or faster and whether or not the monster will use the TP, once it has enough to use it.


I think you should go do your homework and sufficiently research the topics under discussion before you start spouting opinions based on personal experience. The monster TP gain formulas are well known and well documented, as are the conditions under which the TP is or is not used.


Also, since you said something about magic spells that do damage giving TP as well, then this will include enfeebling spells, since spells like Dia, Bio and BLM's frost, etc. spells cause dmg, noticeably dmg initially and then over time. You think by your logic, mages shouldn't even cast at all, period, as they risk giving monster a lot of TP ... again, this is all phoey and I seem to think whoever devised this kind of argument did so on the basis that he/she was biased in his/her opinions and was grasping for straws trying to explain his/her biasness to others.


Go. Do. Your. Research. Before. You. Spew. Worthless. Garbage.

Any offensive magic spell that shows damage in the damage in the log above 0 will give 10TP to monsters. I use this when testing damage formulas on Cactuars in Western Altepa Desert - I spam Dia 10 times and give them enough TP to activate a WS. Works every single time - they don't get any TP from hitting me since I have Stoneskin up.

Dia that does 0 will not give TP. Frost, Burn, Poison II and such spells that do not show damage in the log also do not give TP. The 10 TP given triggers specifically when you throw a spell that deals at least 1 damage.

You think I'd risk taking 1000 damage out of the blue without some idea of how this works?


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Where is information like this discussed and well documented? I was unaware that mob tp gain had been conclusively proven, much less that the exact rates had been determined.

So then a rdm/nin with Rajas Ring and Hornetneedle would only give a mob 2 TP per hit ... If only there was an attainable item we could wear for an extra +2 Subtle Blow, Atseva could cut the time on his dragon fights in half.

Has anyone tested whether the job trait Subtle Blow gets more effective at higher levels?

[Armando]

So then a rdm/nin with Rajas Ring and Hornetneedle would only give a mob 2 TP per hit ... If only there was an attainable item we could wear for an extra +2 Subtle Blow, Atseva could cut the time on his dragon fights in half.
I don't think Subtle Blow +X works as a direct subtraction. Look at SAM, SAM can easily get Store TP +20 in endgame. They don't get 20 more TP per hit, they get 20% more TP per hit. Subtle Blow is like the cousin trait of Store TP; I would assume that equipment that adds it also works by percentages. If you want to give the mob 0 TP you have to hit for 0 and let enspells do all the work.

Icemage, I have just one question: How much TP do mobs gain when they hit you?

[Karinya]

Then explain this .... if players knew about this, what would be so great about having RNGs in PT? One would assume (pre-patch) that with dual wielding, low delay (for faster TP gains) and xbow spamming RNGs (two or three in a PT) the monster would be "penta" spamming it's JA/WS every 3 seconds. However, that was rarely the case and I've been in 2x RNG PTs before and did not notice this difference.

You haven't done much tanking, have you? I've noticed exactly this difference. Barrage hits, bam, there's a WS coming right back at -- me. (Not just counting the times the barrage drops it under 20%, either. And the 20% effect is DEFINITELY real, I've countered many specials with sentinel or flash by knowing in advance that they were coming as soon as monster hp hit 20%.)

Monster TP gain is not an illusion, and RNG definitely ARE dangerous in exactly that way. Maybe you didn't notice, but I'll bet your tank and healer did.

That being said, anyone over level 50 is probably overestimating the downside of RDM melee at the OP's level. Especially the other high level RDMs - it's been months or even years since they played RDM at that level. RDM's damage per hit is not that far below that of real DDs yet - lack of accuracy and time spent casting/resting taking away from time to swing limit RDM damage, but those things don't give TP to mobs either.


Keep the important enfeebles on (which ones are important depends on mob, but usually para/slow/blind, sometimes grav, dia or bio, poison. Silence is either crucial or useless, depending on mob.) Magic burst when there's a skillchain. Heal people that need it (when fighting mandies, remember that cure spells also cure sleep). Rest when you need MP. Don't worry about losing TP. Low level WS are weak anyway, and a RDM's even weaker than most. MP are much more valuable than TP for pretty much any job that has both, except DRK at high levels.

If you can keep up with that, you're doing fine for your level (and your party will be better off for your presence - RDM are sometimes underappreciated at this level, but it really does make a difference). Melee or don't melee just isn't a big issue. It might help your party kill things a bit faster - but only if it doesn't distract you from something more important.

Double Post Edited:
Thing is, BLMs can easily outdamage a two-handed weapon swing while giving it less TP. And yeah, I do agree it's generally a non-issue. I'm not gonna invite people based on how much/little TP they give to the mob. However, there's still no reason for the RDM to feed 9 TP to the mob for very weak damage when he could've been nuking for far better damage and giving it 10 TP.
You haven't seen non-burst RDM nukes at level 26 lately, have you. Blizzard for 40 is about typical - on a mob weak to ice. And with no dark staff, no clear mind, etc., it will take ~45 sec to get that 30 MP back. Assuming you don't need to do anything else in that 45 sec and break your rest... A melee RDM could double that damage easily in the time it takes the nuker RDM to get his MP back, even without an en spell. High level RDM can nuke for 500 even outside MB. Low level RDM can't.
There's also no reason for the RDM to feed it 9 TP per swing for little damage when he could've been kneeling for MP and putting it to much better use (backup cures, nuking, or simply making MP for the next mob.) And there's no reason for the RDM to feed the monster 9 TP per swing for little damage when the mob is below 30% and using TP moves every 10-20 seconds ^^; I just can't find a good reason why a RDM would want to melee in an EXP party.
Backup cures or mp for the next mob aren't always that important, especially at low levels. The party may have cures covered already (especially against mandies). The area may be so crowded, or the party camped so far from mob spawn areas, that everyone will probably be rested to full before you can find another mob and bring it back to camp. RDM TP feeding is often scapegoated, but almost never significant compared to the tank and 2-3 melees swinging 100% of the time. (If avoiding TP feeding from weak hits is so important, why aren't people booted from groups for using sushi instead of str/atk food? Especially at low levels when you don't really need more accuracy anyway?)

Low level RDM nuking is much *worse* than low level RDM melee. If you like B sword and dagger skill, you'll love C elemental magic! (No staves, no moldavite earring, no +skill gear at this level - not even the absurdly expensive ENM earrings.) RDM aren't a strong damage dealer, ever, at any level - and they don't need to be to be useful to a party - but at low levels, if they DO want to contribute some damage above MBs+poison+bio/dia, melee (with an en-spell if possible) is their best option.

[Aeni]

Go. Do. Your. Research. Before. You. Spew. Worthless. Garbage.

What documentation that has been proven as fact exists? There is none. Try again. This time, with a clear response and one void of "elitism" in your near dependance on some knowledge where its existence has mystified me.

You haven't done much tanking, have you? I've noticed exactly this difference. Barrage hits, bam, there's a WS coming right back at -- me. (Not just counting the times the barrage drops it under 20%, either. And the 20% effect is DEFINITELY real, I've countered many specials with sentinel or flash by knowing in advance that they were coming as soon as monster hp hit 20%.)

Barrage hits and no ... not conclusive enough. I melee and I am standing next to the tank with no filters on. Try again. RNGs I've partied with used to Barrage pull for the helluva it (PLD kept bragging how he can get that hate to him even with that) and I never saw any of those mobs pull any move. When fighting weapons, I've seen 3 or 4 JAs/WSs at 80% but several times I didn't see any JA/WS move pull off below 20%. These are my own experiences and that is shared with others.

Thing is, BLMs can easily outdamage a two-handed weapon swing while giving it less TP. And yeah, I do agree it's generally a non-issue. I'm not gonna invite people based on how much/little TP they give to the mob. However, there's still no reason for the RDM to feed 9 TP to the mob for very weak damage when he could've been nuking for far better damage and giving it 10 TP. There's also no reason for the RDM to feed it 9 TP per swing for little damage when he could've been kneeling for MP and putting it to much better use (backup cures, nuking, or simply making MP for the next mob.) And there's no reason for the RDM to feed the monster 9 TP per swing for little damage when the mob is below 30% and using TP moves every 10-20 seconds ^^; I just can't find a good reason why a RDM would want to melee in an EXP party.

Sure, but in the same logic, why would I want a THF/NIN in my party either? Why would I need this player to constantly feed the monster TP that I don't need him to be using? What good is a THF/NIN then in the role of a melee? Also, many THFs I know will whip out their xbow, consumed with a need to out-TP even the mob himself. Again, where is this secret formula out there to shun this kind of behavior that persists in the game? Why isn't people calling this to attention, the very same people supposedly god-like in their intuitiveness to know just exactly how this game work should also be the very ones to dictate some community policy on how we all should play the game.

There is no secret formula. Again, read my words: There is no secret formula to this game. There is no Grand Unified Theory of which all the mysteries in this game gets shed to light. SE crafted this game with monsters that have a fair bit of AI in them and I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't use a simple equation to drive this AI. None of the FF games previous to this and those that will come later have a secret formula either. Many of you are just delusional and one or two consistency check is meaningless unless you do it to 100% of monsters and beastmen in the game with the exact same tests you run ...

[Armando]

Aeni, regardless of how mobs get TP, if you've soloed ANY mob, you'd know that they do use their TP moves immediately once their HP gets lower than 30/25%. And a THF will at least do big skillchain damage. I have soloed many mobs, at around 35-40% I'll Flash, use a WS to take them down to below 30%, and it'll use its TP move without fail if it hadn't used it not too long before that. It's also not hard to tell that when the mob is dying it starts spamming its TP moves. Regardless of wether Icemage is correct or incorrect regarding how the mob gains TP, you can't tell me you haven't noticed this?

Karinya... Blizzard for 40 is a bit *too* low, don't you think? I got 70 (soft cap) pretty consistently as an Elvaan BLM in the dunes. Surely the INT gap between BLM and RDM isn't that big? They both have Magic Attack Bonus at this point. Getting enough INT to not get resists isn't that hard...Mandies are weak to 5/8 elements, you'd have to be casting Stone/Water/Banish/Dia to be getting consistent resists on them. And it'd only take the RDM 30 seconds to get that 30 MP if he's eating cookies. 12 base MP +5 from Ginger Cookies, and you're up to 17 MP recovered on the first tick of healing, which takes 20 seconds, then he'd get 18 on the following ten seconds for a total of 35. If he has a Pilgrim Wand he'd get 39 MP by the 30th second. If he's using simple juices (don't count this out completely...as a PLD I used Pinapple juice literally nonstop for 2-3 hours in my parties. It can be done, maybe not to such a great extenct as I did, but you can) the RDM can get 10 more MP in those 30 seconds (assuming Pineapple because of its cost-effectiveness.)

On the other hand, in those 30 seconds the RDM has around 7 chances to swing, but he'll only have roughly 65% accuracy like most melee will do on most mobs (worse, Mandies are MNKs, they have better evasion, plus the chance to guard.) Basically the RDM is only going to get in around 5 of those hits at best, and unless he's eating meat dishes and has STR gear on him, he's barely gonna do over 20 damage in a single swing, much more likely around 10. A guard from the mandy can easily make a hit go near 0. Plus, this is assuming the RDM doesn't need to do any casting to interrupt his attack cycle. Not only that but in 5 swings he'd give the mob a lot more TP than a single blizzard spell will. And while the party may not need more backup cures, or more MP for the next mob, it doesn't hurt, does it? That extra MP can carry you to a higher chain. Freak accidents can happen, too...sometimes you just need the MP.

Oh and Aeni, people don't kick sushi-eaters out of sheer ignorance. Most people don't know enough about how stats affect meleeing to make sound choices. People still go "if you have a two-handed weapon your accuracy is lower so you need more acc." Even if you did kick them it wouldn't do you any good, it's spread like the plague, EVERYONE uses sushi by default now. I consider myself lucky when I find someone that still uses meat dishes.

[Icemage]

For those who have been too lazy to take advice and go test themselves, here's some references by Apple Pie (JP player who used to post here quite often, who had access to all the JP strategy guides as well as kept up with all FFXI strategy/research forums):

Regarding TP accumulation by enemies:
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38008&page=3&pp=23

The video is no longer hosted but I assure you it showed the amounts correctly:


These are what we have as our common sense.

1) We gain 5% TP when we are damaged by elemental spells while they gain 10% TP.

Note: When we get 0 damage, we don't gain any TP. Neither do they.

2a) When their HP is > 20%
They randomly use their WS when their TP >= 100%.

2b) Whe their HP is =< 20%
They use their WS whenever they store 100% TP.

3) How they gain their TP from our physical attacks?

[TP(%) given] = [TP(%) we acquire] + 3%

Note: Damage > 0

For example, if I get 6% TP with my sword, they get 9% TP from my attack




Quote:
Does any spell cause TP gain, or is it only area-of-effect spells?


Any "elemental" spells inflicting damage (>0). As for Burn, Choke and others inflicting slip damage, they don't seem to do that.

Then, I remember both Bio and Dia does that, too but this is only when they inflict 1 or higher direct damage (not slip one) on them.


I actually *have* tested this personally, and can confirm that these values are correct. As mentioned earlier in this thread, it's how I can do stuff like test damage resistance and Stoneskin, by controlling how often a Cactuar can accumulate the TP to use 1000 Needles:

Damage resistance test:
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49758

Stoneskin test:
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46585

---

The effect of Subtle Blow is less well documented, as I believe it was tweaked at some point. Nevertheless, all you have to do is go ask any level 75 Ninja who has the Rajas Ring and I'm sure they'll confirm that it significantly reduces the number of TP attacks from enemies when they solo, since they already give so little TP to begin with from multiple Subtle Blow traits (thieves with lots of Subtle Blow can also attest to this).

---

I don't know what formula is used to calculate monster TP gain when they hit us. It doesn't have anything to do with the TP we get when hit, unfortunately. Again, though, ask your friendly local Beastmaster to Charm an enemy after it hits you and check its <pettp> and you'll have your answer.


Icemage

[Armando]

For the sake of the TP discussion, I just had a little fun in Sauromugue as PLD/BST with a beetle. It got 6 TP and occasionally 7 TP when hitting someone, be it me or another mob. It seems they gain TP from their normal hits just like us (most mobs hit every 4 secs, the average sword falls just under 4 secs and will typically get 6 TP, sometimes 7 because of the hidden decimals.) Interestingly enough though, mobs will only get 2 TP when struck if it's your pet at the time it was hit.

EDIT: It didn't occur to me until after I posted, but...I logged back on to test Icemage's facts. After hitting a beetle with a Centurion's Sword, it got 9 TP. After casting Banish on a separate beetle, it got 10 TP. That falls in line with what Icemage has been saying.

[Icemage]

EDIT: It didn't occur to me until after I posted, but...I logged back on to test Icemage's facts. After hitting a beetle with a Centurion's Sword, it got 9 TP. After casting Banish on a separate beetle, it got 10 TP. That falls in line with what Icemage has been saying.

Thank you, Armando. As I said, it is *easily* tested by anyone wishing to verify.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

The difficulty I see here is this really:

Where do you draw the line?

Its been verified that enspells and addional effects on any weapon do not add to the TP gain of any verifiyable mob.

So where do we draw the line in where the MTP (Monster TP) gain is not worth the amount of damage inflicted?

A normal sword blow agianst a mob, in the hands of a 26 elvaan rdm (mage gear /blm sub, mage food) hits for approximatly 15-18, pluss enspell(averge 6), on average. The average dagger at that range averages around 10-15.

A double strike (One dual weilded swing) with daggers, provided both hit will land (based off high average) around 30 damage for 13 TP gained [(5+3)x2] Where as a sword on high average deals approximatly 24 damage for 9 TP.

Both of these averages are variable up or down depending on the cercumstances. However the damage per TP ratio, point to the RDM being more effective, up intill the point the dagger user (in this case a thf or a rnger) throw a sneak attack or a WS (I'll note that the WS off a ranger is ranged attack, employing a differnt weapon to compare with)

On the same key, the use of a magic bursted weapon skill can provide up to more than 50% tp to the mob in a matter of seconds, however it is a preferred way to deal even more addional damage.


While it can be justified, the TP gain issue is often a double standard. People will insult a Red Mage who chooses to melee for a couple more levels, but easially accept a thf/nin for Dual Weild daggers and Shadows, while it still remains that /mnk with Hand to hand is still the superior damage dealer at these levels.

I usually end up disregarding it, for me anything up to level 30 is a noobish exploration area anyways.

[Armando]

Dual weild doesn't matter much. The haste gain is minimal so you're still swinging almost twice as slowly - in all, Dual Weild I just gives you off-hand bonuses and slightly improves WS. NIN sub also gives THFs Subtle Blow, so no loss there. I've already thrown out the TP argument out the window because most people simply won't care. I'm not going to make any definite claims because my RDM is level 1...however, can you really say you can do more damage meleeing than nuking? Hyrist, what kind of mob are you talking about when you say a RDM can hit for 15-18? That sounds like an EM mob. An IT mob will check High Defense to a RDM eating typical mage foods, using typical mage equipment. That being said, the RDM's average damage per swing will be lower than his weapon's DMG. Longsword only has 16 DMG, Gladius has 17. So vs an IT mob, the RDM is more likely to do 10-15 melee damage per swing are more reasonable numbers. On the typical IT mob, most melee will experience a 60-65% average accuracy. Mandragora are MNK types and have 3 more evasion than other IT mobs, and the RDM will have 4 less accuracy than other melees because of his/her B combat skills. I can't really comment on en-spells vs IT mobs...on one hand they can be resisted, on the other hand, the mandy should be weak to them, so I don't know if you can get a full 6 damage out of it. I ask you honestly, because I don't have any first-hand experience: do you think the RDM could do more damage meleeing with that kind of accuracy and damage, than nuking Blizzard? Nuking is always more consistent than meleeing because it almost invariably lands; worst-case scenario, it'll get resisted and the damage cut down. With cookies, it's reasonable to get 17 MP per tick of healing. And if the mob isn't high enough for the other mages to need more MP for chains, or more back-up healing, and the RDM can hit it comfortably with its B combat skills and afford to melee it, I think it's also safe to assume he won't be getting many resists on his Blizzards, and will be doing close to 70 damage each. Not to mention that the RDM doesn't have to stop and rest after every spell, a majority of the resting can be done in between fights, after the first tick it only takes 10 seconds to get nearly 20 MP, and should something go awry the MP that would've been used for nuking could be used for something else, as opposed to not healing MP at all and meleeing instead. If the mob is dying, magic is far more reliable to finish it off and won't give it as much TP, since at this point it'll be trying to spam TP moves. At 31 RDM gets Clear Mind, and at 30 the other DDs can get Berserk/Sneak Attack, which increases the gap between RDM's melee damage and real DDs, and makes resting for MP more favorable. Also keep in mind that the RDM won't be able to get TP consistently and even if he got 100 TP, his WS would be mediocre at best. All that taken into consideration, I still feel the RDM would be better off nuking.

However, I want to make it clear I'm not trying to belittle RDMs or downplay their meleeing capabilities. I'm well aware of the devastation a smart RDM/NIN geared with meleeing equipment and the proper buffs can cause on enemies closer to his/her level. I also will agree that there are many double-standards when it comes to DDs and TP. Hell, there are many double standards among all DDs, even if you toss out the TP discussion. Most WARs can get away with using swords, great swords, spears, or scythes, but most people will still say RDM can't melee because of its B dagger/sword skills. However, I did say part of the reason RDM can't keep up is also their lack of offensive JAs/traits, lack of offensive gear and lack of offensive foods in EXP party settings; I'm not using a B rank in sword/dagger as a scapegoat. Take my arguments as you will, and if you can prove me wrong, all the better for everyone.

[Hyrist]

NIN sub also gives THFs Subtle Blow, so no loss there.

I'll remind the thread that we are decussing a 25-30~ party situation here.

Unfortunatly the Subdel Blow Trait dosent work on /nin untill post 30. I've checked my traits /nin as a ranger 28, its not there. However wit /mnk job classes DO get Subdel blow sooner. You can check this yourself with any database.

Addionally the strongest Weaponskill to Chain to SA is still combo up untill dagger skills catch up to the use of Viper Bite. (I've seen heavy damage with a thf that bosted waiting for a pull then unleashed a SA Combo, it made the local monk embarassed)

The damage on sword was done on an Elvaan Rdm, which I stressed this cause of their natural strenght higher than other job classes. He was hitting in the high teens range pretty consistantly. I dont expect theses results to be conisistant for a Taru, or even Mithra. However with the proper equipment this damage could be properly maintained.

On the subject of enspells, if the spell element is coinsiding with the element, weather, or elemental weakness of the mob, resist rates on IT's can be farily low unless you are dealign with fish or crawler type mobs. The reistance curve, however, does go up for ITs post 30, and again at 50.

Addionally, 70 damage on a blizzard is overexadurating in favor of nuking. Our nuke damage for blizzard is approximalty 50-60 range, if unresisted, from a rdm. Blms however deal about the range of damage you are talking about, however they prefer to stick to their higher tiers.

Its my beleift that a rdm can properly rest still between fights (no use saving TP when your man damage particpation is still MBs) while meleeing. And in doing so, they are creating both MP efficent and MTP efficent damage to the mob.(Up untill the mid thirties where things start getting more difficult) Accuracy isnt much of an issue at this rate as your sword is used as a means of support damage, not primary damage. And as most debuffs spells spend a minor amount of MP, and nuking is still best only during magic bursts.

Spending the money on Pies instead of just cookies, also helps this as it adds not only to the MP resting, but to the MP pool and potancy of spells as well, creating more of a leeway for an inteligent RDM to melee in.

On the Issues of JA/WS's, this is all taken into an account in complete aspence of the magical aspect of a Red Mage. The Magic Burst damage from a rdm makes up for the lack of WSes it donates to the cause. Its donations of Paralize and Slow help with the MTP gain it ends up giving during the course of meleeing, as it prevents and slows the MTP gain that the monster gets off of its own attacks, ontop of slowing overall damage.

It is only when the damage curve of the available RDM weapons becomes too low, and the preformance of main melees become too high to justify the use of a support melee, ontop of the increesed Magical Support duities, that makes a rdm put his sword away. And that happens in the later 30s early 40s, not as early as 25.

[Armando]

Unfortunatly the Subdel Blow Trait dosent work on /nin untill post 30. I've checked my traits /nin as a ranger 28, its not there. However wit /mnk job classes DO get Subdel blow sooner. You can check this yourself with any database.
My apologies then ^^; I didn't know NIN got it so late. Now I'm curious, though...To what do you attribute such a big gap in damage on the same spell between BLM and RDM? Can a 6 skill difference in Elemental magic cause such a huge gap? I mean, A-rank skills go up by 3 each level (pre-51.) That being said, a BLM only two levels lower than the RDM would have the same elemental skill, assuming they're both capped. Both jobs have Magic Attack Bonus at this point, too. The only other difference between BLM and RDM would be INT, and I doubt the gap is insufficiently large to be made up with equipment. Also, how do fish/crawlers have different resist rates to enspells compared to other mobs? Also, can you recall if the mandies were being hit by Dia and Acid Bolts? I don't mean to be distrustful, but hitting the high teens (with consistency) sounds a bit odd on a mob that should be high defense. If enspells can do a consistent 6 damage, and the RDM could keep his melee numbers reasonably high, though, then I'd accept that the RDM would be efficient (MP-wise) if he were meleeing as opposed to nuking.

[Icemage]

My apologies then ^^; I didn't know NIN got it so late. Now I'm curious, though...To what do you attribute such a big gap in damage on the same spell between BLM and RDM? Can a 6 skill difference in Elemental magic cause such a huge gap? I mean, A-rank skills go up by 3 each level (pre-51.) That being said, a BLM only two levels lower than the RDM would have the same elemental skill, assuming they're both capped. Both jobs have Magic Attack Bonus at this point, too. The only other difference between BLM and RDM would be INT, and I doubt the gap is insufficiently large to be made up with equipment.

Actually, there isn't much difference between BLM and RDM nuking the same spells at various levels. The thing that separates them is that BLMs get spells much faster than RDMs.. by the time RDMs get tier II spells, BLMs are working on tier III, and when RDMs get tier IV, RDMs are just starting tier III. Elemental skill doesn't affect spell damage at all, aside from reducing resists.

At certain levels, I've managed to outnuke poorly-equipped BLMs as RDM/BRD using the same spell.


Also, how do fish/crawlers have different resist rates to enspells compared to other mobs?


Each enemy has strengths and weaknesses to various elemental attacks. Aquatic enemies like fish and crabs are weak to lightning and ice, for example, which makes Enthunder or Enblizzard the spell of choice for them. In practice, though, this tends to result in you dealing ~4 damage instead of 0-1 against IT or higher enemies.


Also, can you recall if the mandies were being hit by Dia and Acid Bolts? I don't mean to be distrustful, but hitting the high teens (with consistency) sounds a bit odd on a mob that should be high defense. If enspells can do a consistent 6 damage, and the RDM could keep his melee numbers reasonably high, though, then I'd accept that the RDM would be efficient (MP-wise) if he were meleeing as opposed to nuking.

Dia would help, as would acid bolts/daggers. I'm dubious of the high teens figure without some -DEF% effects - I know I certainly didn't hit for anything resembling that at that level range with the best weapons money could buy, on the rare occasions when I'd pull out a weapon.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

At certain levels, I've managed to outnuke poorly-equipped BLMs as RDM/BRD using the same spell.

Right, but the rdm is more common to be poorly equipped in this early stage than blm.

The damage cut is based off personal expirence. I was rather upset trying to nuke on even grounds with a blm at those levels, even with full mage gear. I havent confirmed this myself but I beleive that BLM as a Magic Attack trait above us even at that low level.

Also, how do fish/crawlers have different resist rates to enspells compared to other mobs?

Fish,and Crabs are defensive type mobs that gain magical resistant traits and abilities. These will reduce the damage of enspell and nukes pretty cleanly, dispite the element used. And by the time you hit crawlers for exp, that damage curve I was telling you about comes into effect, as defensive mobs seem to gain more defence traits at that level.

Also, can you recall if the mandies were being hit by Dia and Acid Bolts? I don't mean to be distrustful, but hitting the high teens (with consistency) sounds a bit odd on a mob that should be high defense. If enspells can do a consistent 6 damage, and the RDM could keep his melee numbers reasonably high, though, then I'd accept that the RDM would be efficient (MP-wise) if he were meleeing as opposed to nuking.

The party conisted of RDM BLM WHM RNG WAR/NIN SAM/WAR, against mandys. The War/Nin did use acid bolts, and the rdm always lead with dia, to answer your question both effects were consistantly in place. (I think the blm used frost and shock, I'm not sure) My figures were based off of both weapons facing a defence down and dia effect. (Thanks for reminding me). However I also stressed these numbers that the Elvaan used Pies and Mage gear, instead of what could have been more melee oriented gear, or even gear swaps.

[Armando]

Fish,and Crabs are defensive type mobs that gain magical resistant traits and abilities. These will reduce the damage of enspell and nukes pretty cleanly, dispite the element used. And by the time you hit crawlers for exp, that damage curve I was telling you about comes into effect, as defensive mobs seem to gain more defence traits at that level.
That's very interesting. I was under the impression crabs only got Defense Bonus, since they were PLDs. I'll definetely keep this in mind.

The party conisted of RDM BLM WHM RNG WAR/NIN SAM/WAR, against mandys. The War/Nin did use acid bolts, and the rdm always lead with dia, to answer your question both effects were consistantly in place. (I think the blm used frost and shock, I'm not sure) My figures were based off of both weapons facing a defence down and dia effect. (Thanks for reminding me). However I also stressed these numbers that the Elvaan used Pies and Mage gear, instead of what could have been more melee oriented gear, or even gear swaps.
Well, this certainly explains a lot. Dia (I) is about an 8% Defense reduction, Acid Bolts are 12% Defense down...the mob had a total of Defense -20%, that's almost as if the RDM had Berserk. No ammount of STR will reproduce numbers like those ^^;

Right, but the rdm is more common to be poorly equipped in this early stage than blm.

The damage cut is based off personal expirence. I was rather upset trying to nuke on even grounds with a blm at those levels, even with full mage gear. I havent confirmed this myself but I beleive that BLM as a Magic Attack trait above us even at that low level.
The RDM is then equally unlikely to be equipped (and prepared...you should have capped skill before attempting to melee) to melee.

I guess it basically comes down to the RDM's equipment and the support of the party. In your party, the RDM was able to do decent meleeing numbers because the party debuffed the Mandy with two Defense Down effects. I'm sure this could also be done with a BRD helping the RDM with Attack up. If the RDM has some STR gear on him his numbers will go up a little bit more, too. Of course, if the mob's INT is reduced (BLM debuffs) or a BRD is using Threnodies and the RDM has Ballad, and the RDM is properly equipped with INT, then the RDM shouldn't have any problem landing consistent Blizzards for 70 (or so I think.) Of course, convincing a party to help a RDM melee is easier said than done. A newbie probably wouldn't be able to melee efficiently, but then again, a newbie probably won't have enough INT to nuke well anyways.

Thanks for the input. It may be very situational but I've changed my mind on RDM meleeing at low levels if the RDM knows what he's doing. However, like I said, the RDM would definetely have to show me he's capable, and the mob would have to be debuffed with Defense Down for me to consider it. It's a new idea though, I may just give it a try when I level RDM. We totally hijacked the thread though ^^;

[Icemage]

RDM melee reasonably well up until around level 33-35 or so. After that, available weaponry and lagging weapon skill levels start to drop your damage output against XP-worthy enemies down towards 0.

As far as fish and crabs, the only thing I recall either type of enemy having as far as special resistances is a Resist Sleep trait; magic damage hits them just fine as long as you aren't using Water-based magic, and they're nominally weak to ice and lightning. Crabs do have Bubble Shield, which halves all magic damage against them, but the only abilities fish have are Evasion Up and Defense Up as far as I can recall.

IT++ enemies, however, always have leg up on you when you try to hurt them, and it's common to see 1/4 resists even on the right elements. This is true for nukes, and doubly so for enspell damage, which seems to suffer much more from level differences than nukes (which are assisted by Elemental Magic skill).


Icemage

[Hyrist]

I've been trying to determine what facotor on the account of the monster creates enspell resistance.

We know that the damage on enspells is dependant on Enhansing Skill, and that Neither MND or INT seem to hold a substantial effect on the account of the RDM (Though I have seen no confirming research on this, just hear-say) So I beleive this to be on the account of the monster's mnd. Perhaps we can find ways to verify this in soloing?

[Karinya]

Well, if you think it's the monster's MND, sub BLM and cast Shock. I'd be interested to see if you observe a significant difference.

The reasons RDM nukes do less than BLM nukes (typically) on the same spell:
1. Although both have magic attack bonus, BLM has more of it. It comes in multiple levels.
2. BLM has higher base INT.
3. A BLM will typically prioritize INT very heavily in gear and food selection; a RDM will balance it against MND and maybe other stats as well.
4. Since BLM have higher elemental magic skill, they get resisted less often at the same level.
5. At higher levels, BLM have more access to magic attack bonus, elemental magic skill, and INT gear that RDM can't use.

On top of that, of course, BLM aren't limited to casting the same spells as RDM - they get bigger spells faster, and -ga spells which are MUCH bigger at the same level.

P.S. Fish are not a defensive type mob; although they have some defensive buffs, their base stats are quite offense oriented. Maybe you meant to say crabs and beetles?

[Hyrist]

Well, if you think it's the monster's MND, sub BLM and cast Shock. I'd be interested to see if you observe a significant difference.

I think most rdms would have noticed a differnce in the resistance rate if it was a matter of the amount of MND reduced by shock... I was thinking more of the lines of getting the help of a DRK and BLM to stack elemental debuffs with drain effects on VTs-ITs to see if there is any reistance difference. A more signifigant loss of a stat will show more results, hopefully.

[Enialas]

<snip>
Spending the money on Pies instead of just cookies, also helps this as it adds not only to the MP resting, but to the MP pool and potancy of spells as well, creating more of a leeway for an inteligent RDM to melee in.
<snip>



are they a new player rdm or one that's been playing awhile that decided to try out rdm?

the pies that give mp+ and hmp+ go upwards of 40k a stack to 40k a pop because that requires +1 pies. however sweet rice cakes being against the norm give mp+ hmp+ +5 resist silence and evasion

unless they changed nq apple/melon/rolanberry pies they don't give hmp. at a time that you're trying to be a warrior mage, encouraged by en- spells that you start getting at level 16, six spells that you get every 2-3 levels, ending somewhere between 28 and 34.

why would a new player even consider standing on the back lines with a wand when they know Enthunder is comming and they just got this new sword for rdms? after all oldschool rdms have a sword! (also has a cape too but all AF is 5+1 pieces but i wear a red cape anyways. ~.^) heck they may be even eating mithkabobs. in the right gear a rdm/war can back up tank and even pull hate from the tank. I know this because i did in my formative "years" took war to 18, switched to rdm/war. I main healed in Qufim Island and was only mage in party. when i hit 23 the person's account i was borrowing got thier pc fixed so i had to restart on my own, did things a little differently but still couldn't afford +1 foods because I was trying to get all +1 mage gear.

unlike others, after 1 goblin bomb, (and having to main heal) i decided that i'd be better off in a "mage/backline" capacity against mobs with AoE so I was wisened to the eventual full mage role earlier than most new rdm players, though even the strat guide has recommendations with melee. "you must decide early wether you want to be a melee rdm or magic only rdm"

if the rdms weapon does 0 damage leaving En-spells doing damage (mob gets no TPs this way) and if it's a mob that doesn't AoE and the rdm can do thier job effectively. I couldn't case less if they melee, neither do most people i've pt'ed with when I ask if they mind if I melee.

Post refresh and haste though this happens quite a bit less and when I do, I spend 90% of the mobs life standing next to it casting, total pain in the butt if i'm in a skill up pt trying to skill up my sword skill. rdm main healing in a skill up party when trying to skill a melee weapon = {fun} & {excitement} >.> in these cases the only person i haste is myself!

[Cyborg]

in my experances as a 60 rdm <the magic attack earring is a nice thing to do but most rdm's i know <includinig my self only do refresh/dispel/haste/ and nuke on MB lol>

with this earrring i get more then 310+ on a blizzard 2 for a rdm hume lol thats pretty nice <i have most INT gear and i use ice staff lol>

well thats what i have add on if you like

[Enialas]

in my experances as a 60 rdm <the magic attack earring is a nice thing to do but most rdm's i know <includinig my self only do refresh/dispel/haste/ and nuke on MB lol>

with this earrring i get more then 310+ on a blizzard 2 for a rdm hume lol thats pretty nice <i have most INT gear and i use ice staff lol>

well thats what i have add on if you like

you don't enfeble? rdm has the best enfeble rate of all jobs. use mnd plus for white magic enfebles and int for Black Magic enfebles

1 paralyze activation, 8 mp can save the healer a Cure III of Cure IV or even a Curaga III, leaving them with mp to throw a Cure V on you after you Convert ~.^

Goblin Fascinator starts Casting Firaga III.
Goblin Fascinator is Paralyzed.

or Silence? throwing silence on a mob stops thier ability to cast spells, ninjitsu, summoning and bardic music. very handy and if they just start casting a long spell when they get silenced, they will not do anything thru out the entire casting time

Slow? 5 less attacks in a minute long fight is as if Paralyze activated 5 times.

Blind? missed attacks, Flash only lasts for a couple of seconds. Blind can last entire Fight

Bio or Dia? Less powerful attacks against tank or more damage to mob from everyone engaged in melee, save mp or kill stuff faster

Gravity? Lowers Target's evasion (it gets hit more and therefore die faster) and keeps it from making it to back line before anyone can realize what happened if tank looses hate.

but back on topic:

for weapons:
xp parties:
all levels: +1, ie White Border INT+ and MND+ wands. if you plan on getting any of the other kinds, many of which are situational, plan on macroing them out. like for example a wand gives +5 MP, once you've used those 5 mp this particular feature is worthless till you need to swap it back on to get those 5mp when you're at max mps

these int+ & mnd+ wands, under "clubs" weapon catagory run pretty cheap.

swords are definately ok lower levels but don't melee things with AoEs, Bombs, Sleepga, Slowga etc.

when you hit 40, it's best to disengage and withdraw before you convert, stay hits, even a crabs AoE which is normally negligable, that 5 damage you get just might kill you, also the resulting cure you cast after you Convert grabs a lot of hate if you're too close.

post refresh, depending on party's configuation, you'll either be frustrated you could only swing once in an entire fight or you'll be a DoT between your Elemental attacks. if you're still meleeing at this point, use a low delay and low damage weapon that you'll deal 0 damage per attack (so mob gets 0 tp) and rely on your En-spells to do damage.

Only melee if it does not impede your ablities as a rdm. do not melee in Mana Burn parties. between weapon swap, (you are casting with that wand equipped right?) you'll never get 100% TP, you'll never participate in an SC, and if by some chance and luck you actually do aquire the TPs, if you're not paying attention and screw up an SC everyone will be upset with you or forgive you because it'll only happen that once all day long.

at 51 melee will no longer be a thought in xp pt situations barring any unusual circmstance, if you were even meleeing after 40 or 25 when the only option was Goblins, (AoE) or Mandys (AoE) so no meleeing there.

[Jei]

Just my choice of playing. Every since I started joining PT right at lvl 11, my Rdm had always play a black line casting role. Rdm's magic usefulness comes a lot earlier than you think. When I invite Rdm into my PT at lvl 14-30, I invite them for cure 2. Debuff are a plus.

The idea about shifting from melee to mage after you learn a certain spells, while they do work, not all players (especially new ones) can suddenly shift their role like that. You see Rdm not healing, missing their debuff, not paying attension to refresh etc etc all these could easily be avoided if those Rdm play the caster role earlier and get used to it. Meleeing from 1-30 will not get any Rdm ready for their role to come.

Some people told me, medicore Rdm before 50 can be forgiven because they are still *new* to refresh. I understand, but I must say it is frustrating as hell when the rest of the PT can perform so well and have to suffer 1 bad Rdm.

[bikkebakke]

I would have to agree with Jei. I think RDM should stop meleeing as soon as they are in a party role. They need to learn to play as support/debuffer as soon as possible.

[Balodoth]

Jei has a point. I really love DRG/BRD. I mean it's totally awesome! But I'm not using that sub in a party.

Not that there's a few times I think it would have been a useful choice, but I know I didn't make a mistake by subbing WAR or THF. Likewise, even RDM who stick to casting would like to melee once in a while, but at least you know for a fact that you are doing a great job by focusing on casting.

[Lmnop]

A bright fella of a RDM once said that a good RDM will take time off from leveling to solo. You really understand how powerful your debuffs are and how much you need refresh to thrive for extended battles when it's your own exp on the line. No one else there to pick up your slack. My brother does a lot of soloing with his RDM, he's found out a lot about balance. He learned very quickly that maximizing his stats maximized survival, and that equip macros maximize stats. Which reminds me, couple things that I thought about while reading this evolved thread:
(I should tell you, I'm the melee of the family, my sister is the mage, and my brother is in between. My brother and I are min/maxers, munchkins, whatever derogatory comments geeks use these days. All that said....)

1) while leveling with my brother's whm, we always laughed about his Banish doing 90ish damage while the BLMs used their best nuke to hit for 80. It took an MB for them to outdo his Banish. I just thought that was funny and wanted to share it...

2) but back to his RDM, he's in the 40s range now and has been experimenting with /drk a lot. This is convenient since between 40 and 50, /drk gives aspir while /blm does not. Of course, we all know this is also his excuse to test out his melee prowess. Icemage mentioned before that the reason his rdm/brd functioned so well was because his stats were meritted and his gear was above most players of his level. My brother lacks merits, but his gear is exceptional. It's good enough that he's been keeping a sword equipped full time, and in a quick-pull party, he doesn't get to rest away all the tp he gets. I'm not saying melee is always good but if you can completely debuff mob, keep everyone refreshed, be ready with cures (<stpc> really helps here), and hit MBs, then you can melee. And so we find that the RDMs who understand the game the least keep meleeing when it's the RDMs who have the best understanding that can get away with it (his stats just wouldn't be good enough w/out a MND/INT/Melee set to be swapping between).

Btw, 200 seems to be his average Red Lotus Blade as of 45ish. I think that's respectable as all the war/nins at that level are using Raging Axe for 100-150 and do the "OMFGs" when they crit a hit for 250 or whatever. Of course, they could be subbing thf and doing 400+ dmg SA Sturmwinds but that's not what this thread's about.

[mpa]

If anyone still cares, I believe that for non-SAM's each point of Subtle Blow lessens the TP you give the mob by 0.1 TP per hit, and each point of Store TP gives you 0.1 more TP per hit.

[aegina]

with response to what someone said earlier, yes, rangers DO give the mob a lot of tp.

once, (post patch) i was in the jungles on my ranger. the mob hit the tank with a goblin rush and killed him. all at once, i fired a weoponskill, used barrage, fired one ranged attack and then a second weoponskill. the goblin turned around, hit me with a goblin rush then double-attacked, killing me. almost no one else hit the mob during that time.

[Armando]

Lmnop, your post made me laugh. On PL parties in the dunes since I had nothing to do and I had a LOT of MND gear to swap to, and being Elvaan, I was doing really high Banishes too XD And yeah, honestly, I swear, I wish dual-weilding would just die pre-50. Oh and about Store TP...Store TP is based on percentages, so every point of Store TP+ gives you 0.01 more TP.

[arkaine23]

Here's my take on RDM melee:

level 1-10: Absolutely as you will be solo. Alternate sword and dagger if you need skill in either. Sword preferred. Enfeeble, nuke, and self cure for skill and as needed. Spam Bar/Cure spells for enhancing /healing at your MH if you lack the skill.

level 10-20: Same as above, but now you get to learn party tactics with noobs in the Dunes, /joy. You will get enspells here. Use them as the puller is coming in if you have already rested mp (but please please please get your enhancing magic up ASAP!). Here we begin transistioning to having a real role as a mage. Our enfeebling starts pulling ahead of other mages and we get Cure II and some decent nukes (Blizzard/thunder).

Note about food: Juice really helps if you want to melee. As for food, I still have a hard time decided on any food that is actually good for a rdm. Yah you can boost mp and int or mind when doing purely made stuff, and that's good if you lack expensive gear, and real good if your race has low mp. On the other hand, if you farm and get good gears and get used to equip swaps early, you could get away eating melee foods and drinking juice to help get mp back quicker.

level 20-40 Keep meleeing when you can if you're not getting hassled. But start to think twice about dangerous AOE mobs. If you have good enhancing magic skill, stoneskin and phalanx around lvl 32 can keep you on the front line and taking less damage than the melees. Heck your natural mnd and int will already do wonders agaisnt a lot of mob tp attacks. But this is sort of a waste of your small mp pool unless you are refreshed with juices. Dispel! Gravity! Dia II!

Bear in mind that enfeebling is your main task. Backup curing is critical for saving lives. Nuking on MB or at the end of a fight is always good if you have the mp for it. So while you can do these things while engaging the mob, do not pay any attention to your melee damage. Keep focused on the log and hp/mp bars of your party, as well as your own buffs.

Personal note: I compromised and meleed up into the late 30's by
1) Demonstrating that I could manage my mp pool effciently (often disengaging to rest as needed or juicing)... You're only support after all it's ok to disengage and rest sometimes.

2) Demostrating that you can perform you're primary roles while engaged in melee. Enfeeble. Cure. MB/occaisional nuke to end the fight. Not hitting for 0's. Gear swapping helps a lot. You don't want to sacrifice magely stats in order to melee. In this regard, I swapped wands and sword constantly and had to reaquire lockon to the target after most spells. And also swapped a few pieces of melee gear frequently after spells. In essence I sacrificed WS for the sake of meleeing and spell power. Your WS won't be missed at all anyway, and you'll be resting and maybe synthing juice when you can.

When mob TP/ rdm melee sucks subjects come up, you have a few defensive arguments. 1) How am I doing at my primary job? How are we doing on xp chains? Can I just cap my weapon since I leveled? And maybe the best one: What are you worried about, my acc is kinda poor and I'm busy casting most of the fight since that's my main job, the mob is barely getting any TP from me.

Post 41 (Refresh): Stay back and be a mage. Your plate is full. If you can melee and keep up refresh and later haste, and not miss enfeebles dropping or dispels, you were born to be a Red mage. If you've gotten used to meleeing, you might still be able to pull this off for awhile yet, but mobs are getting tougher, and parties by now will not be sympathetic to your cause in the slightest....

So sadly its become a good idea to put away your blade and wield a paddle-stick and soon enough elemental staves. If your pt starts chaining T/VT and you've been doing some skillup so that you're not too far behind, by all means ask if you can melee after landing the critical enfeebles. Macro an acc+ swap and go to town just after dropping Gravity and Dia II. It's far easier/quicker to get TP on these tougher xp mobs than it is in skillup party or solo. With this in mind have the best sword or dagger avaialble for your level handy at all times (you should anyway as a point of style, you pimp mage you).


One last note: Ceremonial Dagger hits for 0. That's a free add of your enspell damage, so long as you manage MP effectively and know when is a good time to give it a rest (by resting). If you have abysmal wand and staff skill, you can melee and swap for spells without worry of landing hits with your other weapons. You're not gonna be getting any TP anyway.


Solo post 40: This is where you shine. Get all your skills up. Become a master of swap macroing and multitasking. You've got the defensive buffs and magely versatility and endurance of no other job.

[WishMaster3K]

Best thing for RDMs to do is to emphasize and solidify strenths: Survivability; and maximize things not as strong: Offense.

Best offense is a good defense can be applied to some RDM instances. . . not all, because the sad thing is that even Taru MP is limited (trust me, it is. . . .) So a RDM that actually gears for uber damage can use the mitigating factors of Defense that are latent, and the mob control we have.

I find the best weaps to use are the one's with high damage. Or, it depends on how we plan on fighting. If we want to En it to death so it doesnt get TP, use a fast weapon that's weak (ie, beestinger, hornetneedle, ceremonial. . .)

But on things where we do damage, buff attack and go for the gusto: those Damage 37+ weapons with the 233+ delays are serious pieces of toolage. I used gold Sword with a /WAR sub in Batallia at the lvl I could first equip it and i cried, because I couldn't kill tigers that fast with my RGF. . .

Fast swords like RGF have their purpose, but I tend to keep those weapons on the off hand for the bonuses. :P