Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

[Plenum]

Hi everyone,

This post is for www.FFXIONLINE.com
I’m Plenum from server Ifrit. I would like to propose an idea to the FFXI community, although my plan may seem idealist in a sense it is plausible and sensible. I have been playing FFXI since October 2003. I am a North American player. I would like to address the problem with the economy not only in my server by the entire world of FFXI.

There is a serious problem with economy whether you would like admit or not. MMORPGS are not much different from our real world, where people are forced to interact with one another. You cannot disagree that the world of FFXI is a complete lassie-faire or capitalistic market. But even a lassie-faire market needs regulations that is why I propose to you the idea of making governing bodies in FFXI.

Before I begin yes I know this is totally idealistic and highly unlikely that we can get the members of FFXI to cooperate. Especially with language barriers and age barriers and lack of maturity of our fellow adventurers, this idea may indeed be impossible; but I would like to bring it anyway.

This governing body is directed towards high level crafters who have a very high (unknown percentage) ownership of the market. Now we all know that Crafters often make a lot of money via crafting and farming. So we do hold the responsibility of offering our goods at a reasonable price. When we make something and sell it we want to make money, this is a basic principle of selling. We make the prices up by seeing what others have sold it for in the Auction House. That has long been the tradition of FFXI economy; sell at the price the last person sold it for and should it not sell you would ideally undercut their price.

There is something terribly wrong with this. Why do we sell things at the last price sold? It could be that you are not a crafter and you wanted to sell something that you bought and no longer need. Yes it is reasonable that you would want to profit from it, but now remember everyone of use has the power to adjust market price. If you sell Scorpion Harness for X + Y amount of gil (X being the original price, Y is additional price you profit) you make Y profit, but in return that Y profit goes down the line and increase the price of everything. How?

You sell Scorpion Harness for X + Y, the buyer now lost Y gil he will also want to profit from this or at least break even. He will then sell it for X + Y + Z gil further increasing the price! Then when Scorpion Harness is too expensive to buy another player will sell their goods at an additional price in order to afford. Following the laws of supply and demand if there is a supply, people will want demand it no matter what the price. Now say you’re the original seller of Scorpion Harness at X + Y price. But now you need a new piece of gear – that gear would have increase from inflation that you originally put into the game. Therefore rending that piece of gear over priced, too expensive, and ultimately you sell something for an even higher price further inducing inflation.

Of course this is but variable that affects the inflation rate.

But how do we fix this especially with the problem of rouge gilsellers and NM campers etc? By making a governing body we can slightly remedy this major problem.

I have not done intense research in goods that are ever lasting meaning goods from Goldsmith, Blacksmith, Clothcraft etc. This is because I have done more research on goods that expire such as (in real life) foods and services. This system is more geared toward those kinds of goods.

I will be using cooking guild as an example, because I come from a cooking guild at level 90+.

Food is useable and can only be used once. Once you use the food the food leaves the game system and is gone. Meaning that the source can only be from cooks and this also means that there is an infinite demand of food. This means that there will always be a demand for food no matter what so gil is always going to be earned. Much like how farming fire crystals will earn you money no matter what. Yes it is marginal but a business should only aim towards breaking even at a dollar target price.

Note: I hate the fact that there are elitist in the game who think certain items are meant for them and them alone – people who have gear that is expensive and flaunt it or use foods that are overly expensive at the moment and never share information.

Anyways moving on…

My idea is to create a union of cooks of high level all those who obtain a high level can join the union.

- It will be managed through a linkshell where there are unions divided in each major nation.
- There will be one volunteered leader of each nation who will then act as a representative of that nation.
- Each leader of the nation will find and seek those willing to join the union.
- There will be meetings help via linkshell or playonline mail to inform all constituents of the news.
- The meetings will talk about how price can be adjusted in the market to help lower inflation and still break even.
- The prices will be determined as a group depending on how prices of supplies are priced
o If it is for example sushi we can become fishers ourselves and supply our own union with fish.
- All nations will be independent of one another expect but will work together as a total governing body
- Combat gilsellers by under-pricing them while breaking even.
[Will be edited according to new research]

Now WHY should we do this, why do we waste our effort and time to create governing bodies in order to not even make profit?

The answer is simple.
Do you wish to see the future of Final Fantasy XI to be sustainable?
Do you wish to see our friends in the future be able to enjoy Final Fantasy XI?
Do you wish to be able to afford goods a reasonable price?
Do you wish to be able to have more unity in the world of Final Fantasy XI?
Do you wish to be apart of a group and have a say in Final Fantasy XI?
Do you wish to be able to have a say against PlayOnline when they make unreasonable changes?
Do you wish to see our economy revitalize itself with help?
Do you enjoy playing Final Fantasy XI?
If the answers are yes to these questions you should think about why we need to do something about the economy.

The very survival of Final Fantasy XI is at hand. We are the members of an incredibly MMORPG. We all have the right to fix what we have done wrong. We have the power to make change happen we need to do something about this. The power is ours and we need to make an initiative to make change or else things will become worse as time passes by, the world of Final Fantasy XI will be empty but those who have becoming sickly rich through terrible means. The streets of Juneo once ringing with hundreds of adventures from around the world will be silent. The few elite who play will no longer have admirers or anyone to help. The world of Final Fantasy XI will be gone forever and who will we blame?

No one but ourselves.

[(Takemuke)]

Lol. Fail.

[Jokerboy1]

how bout people just stop buying gill..

[silentsteel]

I actually rather like the Idea and would help were I proficient in any skill. Sadly I'm not nor am I on the server, but if you could get some of the others to help somehow, that would be kool. ^^b

[Plenum]

I do realize this is a very tough idea to implement but its good to dream.

[Deeq]

well based on the economy and the way things are going if you thought about it, unless they make new servers in the future or something like that everything will be really expensive and there for the community of FFXI might die, but on the other hand if every thing gets really expensive then that might mean ulll make money off of stuff you farm or mine and etc... and be able to buy stuff in the economy....

[(Takemuke)]

- Combat gilsellers by under-pricing them while breaking even.


Tried it. Failed horribly. Seems like if somethings been goin' for a steady price, the buyers won't even TRY to get a bargain out of it.... or maybe thats just the Nub's on my server...





j/k I <3 my Rag buddies ;)

[Tsikuro]

Tried it. Failed horribly. Seems like if somethings been goin' for a steady price, the buyers won't even TRY to get a bargain out of it.... or maybe thats just the Nub's on my server...





j/k I <3 my Rag buddies ;)

Yeah, it seems like when someone ends up buying the item for a lower price they just think "LOL ROFL THIS NOOB PUT IT UP FOR CHEAP".
This idea looks good on paper, but it fails in practice, because people are greedy, and will not settle down to think for even a second.

[nanatsu]

Going to have to agree. I've tried several times to affect prices by undercutting a sizable amount of items but the sheer number of items on AH and people's mentality of not caring pretty much makes it nil. It is an awfully nice idea though and I wish something like that would work.

[Plenum]

The lack of unity or repsect for our community is horrendous. I know this is one of those looks good on paper but wont work in reality. If only the GM or POL did something aobut this. It also shows what happens if there is no governence in place. Things get out of hand, god forbid we were allowed to PK... (early days of diablo2)... That would have just been terrible.

I dream that one day we can do this, be the first of our fellow MMORPG to take action and set an example. Also being united gives us awsome bargining power with POL and SE. Think about it, if we were just 5,000 strong in 1 server how much power we would have.

[Draco Dagon]

How about this... instead of dropping any items, just give anything away you're too lazy to at least go to a local shop and seel yourself (where possible)?

[Plenum]

I don't remember mentioning about dropping items. I said to collectively set a price that is reasonable to sell.

Why must people be so greedy can't they see its self-destruction?

[Skygto]

Human. Nature.

[Balfree]

Plenum, i agree completely, and i would love to be part of something this big, but like this thread clearly shows, people are bashed, brought down and then ran over by a truck when they even DARE to come up with ideas, the truth is that almost everyone buys gil, it's sad but very true and because of that they won't even care about these issues, because a measly 10$ will solve their problems.

I would, for fucking ONCE, see a unity in FFXI, if people cared, they woulnt say things like "You Fail."

Now, i wish square would implement some sort of special AH, where people would receive points when placing stuff for sale, these points would serve for some other gains, something to leave it up to SE to come up with, in this AH, prices would be capped, or atleast you would only get the points if you put the items for sale within a specified price range, also in this AH you would only be able to sell expendable goods like food and medicine.

[nanatsu]

It's a wonderful idea. But I've seen people bring up stuff like this before many times in forums (including this one) only to get laughed at and mocked or just have their posts sit there in silence. I would love to see some unity in the FFXI community as well but I lost my faith in that a long time ago. I just don't see it happening with the way people act and treat each other. Now it's not my intent to tear down the OPs ideas and draems or whatever. But as he himself admitted, knowing the community so far I just don't believe it will happen. It sucks but I've been around too long to expect anything more out of the FFXI community. He said this before he even started:

Before I begin yes I know this is totally idealistic and highly unlikely that we can get the members of FFXI to cooperate. Especially with language barriers and age barriers and lack of maturity of our fellow adventurers, this idea may indeed be impossible; but I would like to bring it anyway.

So I think he knows what's up. Some of us were just echoing what he expected from his attempt in the first place.

If someone really wants this then they'll work hard to change people's minds and get some results so that people will have faith in their ability to see this through. You have to expect people to be extremely hesitant or doubtful, considering the sheer enormity of his proposal and the apathy of the FFXI community in the first place. It's on the person who really wants this to happen to take charge and make it work, no matter who says what about their ideas. A person should not get discouraged just because everyone isn't saying "Good job! That's a wonderful idea! You're so great for coming up with it!" That's not how the world works and I think everyone knows this. In fact I think it's safe to expect to get negative feedback and that's where you're supposed to convince people. If you expected anything else then well, you're setting yourself up for a big disappointment.

All that aside I will say again that it's a wonderful idea, and it would be very nice if people could get together to get this going. Who knows? If something like this actually works I may have my faith in the community restored.

[aegina]

i wonder... what sorta things can SE actually DO to fix the economy...?

[DrivenTooFar]

Like most people on this thread I agree with your idea and would love to see something like this happen also. Of course there is no way this could happen but it was a nice idea.

[Draco Dagon]

I don't remember mentioning about dropping items. I said to collectively set a price that is reasonable to sell.

Why must people be so greedy can't they see its self-destruction?

Did I say you said anything about dropping items? No. I didn't. I was speaking more of people in general dropping items in town instead of giving it away or selling it to an NPC. (I don't mean items that can't be sold or traded either.)

Nor did I say I disagree with the thread's original post.

[Deviantkat]

Why isn't there just a gil bank in which your gil makes interest at an equal rate to a calculated approximate server inflation rate? Things might still get more expensive, but at least you'd be able to keep raw gil without it constantly becoming devalued by market inflation.

To be quite honest though, i would like to see some sort of governing body. Maybe not in the form that you describe Plenum, but your idea is something that a game government could be based off of. You're entirely right that FFXI's economy is a laisser-faire capitalist economy. The sheer buying power that many rich players (many of them gilsellers) have is astounding. They can easily shape the price of an item at will by buying it out and resell it for profit at an increased price. As soon as one person pays the new rate, the new price is fair game and chances are it won't go down.

However, this isn't the end of the world. By the very laws of supply and demand you suggested, inflation will also cause the farmed items many people make money off of, raising the income who uses farming for income, and thus, the average income of the server. Because of this, the players have greater buying power to get items at newly inflated prices. However, they also have the power to further increase item prices by making stupid decisions and buying items that have been inflated to exorbidant rates because they're too damn impatient to wait for them to come down in price a bit.

A governed economy could theoretically cut back on the power of richer players to simply shape the price of any item they choose. In theory, it would cut back on the inflation rate to some extent, which is still a good thing despite the added buying power of the players. The one thing I failed to mention before is that the consumers are always one step behind. They'll be saving their money up to pay for an item, but when they get enough to buy it, the item's already gone up. The less the inflation rate is, the less this will occur.

I don't really have a specific point but I'd just like to say that inflation isn't the end of the world, despite its effect. It would be nice to see it decrease, though. If anything, at least NPC prices are starting to become more reasonable XD. If prices go up I could care less, so long as my income goes up enough to match it.

[Aeni]

Many things don't work ... I'll get into that later tonight (I'm on a coffee break at work and really can't get into it at the moment)

[Plenum]

Did I say you said anything about dropping items? No. I didn't. I was speaking more of people in general dropping items in town instead of giving it away or selling it to an NPC. (I don't mean items that can't be sold or traded either.)

Nor did I say I disagree with the thread's original post.

Oh Sorry Draco I didn't understand what you exactly mean.


I've read your posts.
I do understand that all ideas don't work sometimes. I'm not going to force others to do this because that is wasted effort. I personally don't believe in convincing through words (not all the times at least). I will convince you that this will work by action. I've started a new linkshell at the moment I am taking my time trying to set up a working system on paper.

I really like your banking idea Deviantkat. Maybe SE should make a requirment of people who are extremely rich to become bankers. A program where you can see who took what and who invest what and use the rich players to use their money to pay up interest payments in exchange the rich players can get certain event items that shows that they are bankers or banker only items.
But let me try not to deviate from the main problem at hand - inflation.

I must say the interest rate idea is fantastic, SE should put in a system where you invest your money on your own Nation. This will be a catalyst to use signets and have pride for you nation. - Unity will somewhat happen because people have a common goal - If a nation is more powerful they can have higher return rates. This would be a way to not so much to control inflation but earn money from conquesting.

nanatsu, thank you for your advice. I must say that I still have faith in our FFXI members although they may not have faith in our community. I know something must be done soon or in the near future or else I foresee the end of FFXI in a short time.

Balfree, its true but sad that you can solve problems with $10.00 US. But is this right thinking? In real life if we want something we should fight for it. We have to strive for it by whatever means it takes. How honorable or good will you feel if you paid it off? It's just the terrible mindset young people have these days. Money solves short term problems but create long term problems. Long Term problems cannot be solved with money in most cases.
- I ask myself this question, Do we play MMORPG to get away from real life and do whatever the hell we want and cant do in real life? Or do we use it as a model to the right things we dont see happening in real life?


I do fear one thing with power. No matter how balanced the system might be (as in America's system) there will be shady things going on. For the most part most people cannot handle power yet if no one is given power things wont work. We have to choose one or the other and go with it. I am still studying how to do this.


If you guys are wondering why I would spend time studying how to fix inflation, work on a new governance system, and try to see a answer to this problem is that it works a long the lines of my Economic thesis papers. MMORPG is unique in that it is much like a new world, new governance. It is much like an expieremental governing problem. Where you create a totally new independent state throw a bunch of people in it and see what they do. Obviously we see that if there is no governing power chaos happens. Chaos is good only when it is harnessed and controlled. This also proves the fact that for the most part when people are given the opportunity to run the free market it doesn't work. The rich get richer the poor get poorer and there is no middle class. (Sorry Adam Smith your theory isn't perfect). MMORPG is truly unique I do not believe other MMORPGS went to the length of implementing a unique governing system where the people use their minds to work together.

Togetherness, is it not what online play is meant to be?

[Kailo]

Well, I can tell you that togetherness isn't what most people have in mind when they travel to the AH. If a system were to be implemented, and changes made, it would have to be forced on the player. SE will have to deal with the problem themselves, by making direct changes.

I actually like Balfree's idea, using something of a "Consumable Goods Market" or like a farmer's market for FFXI, just with regulations. Maybe make nice Rare/EX items given as rewards for use of it? Nothing major, but nice things that would definitely make undercutting worth it (Rare/EX upgraded consumables maybe, with an increased effect or length over the original? That would tie into the theme of this market as well), and thus force the people inflating to decrease and match it.

But to be honest, if you want things fixed, you need to bring it up with SE, not the players. Now, convincing the players to band together and help get SE to make changes is another thing. That sort of thing just might work.

[JeanRC]

i once though of a GIL BANK that i want to make lol.
like if u want to borrow 1million gil from me then u need to put some item that worth 1.2-1.5M in market price to me as a deposit. and u have like maybe 2week to -1month or whatever to pay me back 1.5M + a little interest to me. if not i will take the item and sell it .

Double Post Edited:
if only square make most or all weapons and armor to EX then the need of gil and gil seller and etc will be so much better lol

[Blood Red Poet]

SE needs to do this: (This is a damn good, original idea)

Crafters can buy rare/ex, renamed versions of Dama Ingot, Venom Claw, Dama cloth, Divine Log, Dragon talons, and Behemonth Leather(if I missed any inflatied item, you know what I mean) with GP. Then they should make a recipe, with no HQ, that is idenical to the normal synth, but with that rare/ex item taking its place. Call them something like "Guild Quality Divine Log". The GP price of these items shouldn't be that high at all. Maybe like... 1-2 weeks worth of hardwork and less than half it would take to get your apron.

What would this do? Many things:
-Crafters wouldn't have to rely on these items entirely. Gil Sellers are the main supplier of these items as well. The demand and price will drop, so that crafters will buy them at good prices and inflation will drop.
-There will be more armor(at cheaper cost as well because of materials themselves dropping price), dropping the price for adventurers who want to buy them. Hauberk's price would also drop, which is a big problem.
-Crafters will gain a profit from the items.
-Crafters will not LOSE a lot when they fail.
-Crafters will support lower level Crafters who are selling possible GP items on AH.

You should be a Vetern to use the service. Anyway, if SE would implement that, I'm sure just about everyone would say "Woot!".

Double Post Edited:
Another problem is SE is moving items to BCNMs from NMs (Good), but making the drop rates on the BCNMs very poor (Bad!). SE needs to increase the drop rates of these BCNMs so the prices of the items drop. It should be 1/3 for Archer rings, 1/4 for emperor hairpin, 1/4 for leaping boots, and 1/6 for Peacock charm(this is like 1/32 for god sake). O-Kotes need to be given this service too with a 1/3-4 dropping rate(let it drop from Yagudo, Orc, and Quadav BCNMs I'd say).

[nanatsu]

Well one thing I noticed from the interviews is that SE seems to enjoy making the best armor hard to get. They don't seem to want everyone to have a scorpion harness or haberk x_x so honestly I don't think they would do anything that would make that armor more common, even if it brought the prices down. Not xaying it's not a good idea, because it's a great idea. Just going by how SE has been operating I just don't believe they would implement it.

[Aeni]

SE needs to do this: (This is a damn good, original idea)

Crafters can buy rare/ex, renamed versions of Dama Ingot, Venom Claw, Dama cloth, Divine Log, Dragon talons, and Behemonth Leather(if I missed any inflatied item, you know what I mean) with GP. Then they should make a recipe, with no HQ, that is idenical to the normal synth, but with that rare/ex item taking its place. Call them something like "Guild Quality Divine Log". The GP price of these items shouldn't be that high at all. Maybe like... 1-2 weeks worth of hardwork and less than half it would take to get your apron.

What would this do? Many things:
-Crafters wouldn't have to rely on these items entirely. Gil Sellers are the main supplier of these items as well. The demand and price will drop, so that crafters will buy them at good prices and inflation will drop.
-There will be more armor(at cheaper cost as well because of materials themselves dropping price), dropping the price for adventurers who want to buy them. Hauberk's price would also drop, which is a big problem.
-Crafters will gain a profit from the items.
-Crafters will not LOSE a lot when they fail.
-Crafters will support lower level Crafters who are selling possible GP items on AH.

You should be a Vetern to use the service. Anyway, if SE would implement that, I'm sure just about everyone would say "Woot!".

Double Post Edited:
Another problem is SE is moving items to BCNMs from NMs (Good), but making the drop rates on the BCNMs very poor (Bad!). SE needs to increase the drop rates of these BCNMs so the prices of the items drop. It should be 1/3 for Archer rings, 1/4 for emperor hairpin, 1/4 for leaping boots, and 1/6 for Peacock charm(this is like 1/32 for god sake). O-Kotes need to be given this service too with a 1/3-4 dropping rate(let it drop from Yagudo, Orc, and Quadav BCNMs I'd say).

BRP, your idea is really centered on just helping the common consumer, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but does nothing to alleviate the issues with the economy.

For example, having a recipe with no chance of HQ'ing ... any crafter worth his or her salt will immediately toss this proposition into the waste basket. Crafters make money from HQ versions of just about anything. They break even or incur losses on a normal synth, but an HQ or two can usually recoup a lot of the loss and most of the times provide the crafter with enough profit that they have an incentive to continue to ply their trade.

Also, the points you listed are pretty shortsighted. I don't know about other crafters here, but majority of the craftsmen that I know on my server insure their own craft is as efficient as possible. This means that many will synth their own GP items. Several have more than a couple of mules dedicated in holding the raw materials that will be used to synth a GP item. There is a database online, which keeps track of the guild item and tracks it with a pattern and players are able to forecast or predict an upcoming item. This allows them to hoard items that will obtain the most favorable GP ratio and thus reduces the need to get the items from the AH.

The only way you can stabilize the economy is by changing how the economy works fundamentally and you need to make changes in many places at once. By only changing a thing or two without regards to the whole, you'll end up screwing things big time. Like when SE removed Astral Rings totally from Coffer chests. Now, Astral Rings are insanely expensive. The only issue I had was that something of value should not be mixed in with AF pieces. Instead, SE went overboard and rather just simply relocating the item, they went and made it into some obscenely rare and expensive (in seals) game of chance. This is a shining example of the kinds of problems plaguing the game ...

[Blood Red Poet]

It most costing piece of the equipment(the HNM drop) is lowered, they would make profit. Haub/Hauberk are paralyzing to DRK/SAM/WARs due to its big cost, and it is going up higher and higher. If they wanted to HQ(and get a lot of money) they would need to buy the costy material.

Peolpe don't usually buy CP items on AH, but they do.

Double Post Edited:
Okay. I bet you get "OMG MAKE DRG BETTER" and "KILL THE GIL SELLERS!" suggestions all the time, nonstop. Well anyway, here is an good, smart suggestion:

One of the leading problems of FFXI is the price of gear crafted from expensive HNM drops(ie: Hauberk). SE has tried to solve this in the pass by making BCNMs drop the items. However the drop rates are not too great, and the HNM will still be the prime source of drops. And guess what, its the gil sellers who are selling them. So what would be a good idea to help against the fight of overpriced armor and inflation? A concept I call "Guild Quality" materials. Guild Quality materials would be bought from GP(Guild Points) like the other furnishing, armors, or keyitems a Guild would normally offer. There would be one "Guild Quality"(GQ) item for a list of HNM drops materials. GQ items would be Exclusive(however, not Rare). This is how I would think it would work, but this is only a suggestion. Feel free to shape it your own will...

Blacksmith:
"GQ Damascus Ingot"

Goldsmith:
"GQ Orichalcum Ore"

Clothcraft:
"GQ Damascene Cloth"
"GQ Siren's Hair"

Leathercraft:
"Behemoth Hide"

Bonecraft:
"GQ Venomous Claw"
"GQ Dragon Talon"

Woodworking:
"GQ Divine Log"

(The list could be expanded I guess).

The key is the amount of CP that would be needed to be spent. If you make it cost too much, it will be more work than its worth(a common habit you guys do). A deticated GP trader shouldn't spend more than 1-3 weeks getting these items.

GQ Orichalum Ore and GQ Damascene Cloth - easiest to get. (.5 to 1 weeks for the very deticated trader).

GQ Siren's Hair and GQ Dragon Talon - not easy, but not too hard. (1 to 2 weeks for the very deticated trader).

GQ Damacus Ingot, GQ Divine Log, GQ Behemoth Hide, and GQ Venomous Claw - hard to get. (2 to 2.5 weeks for the very deticated trader).

Okay. After the items are released, you make alternate recipes for the items, with the GQ item replacing its HNM dropped counterpart. Now, if you want to make them unHQable, that wouldn't be a bad idea. However, if they were unHQable, I would make them slightly cheaper to get with CP.

What would this do?
-Crafters wouldn't have to buy super expensive items to make armor that everyone needs. If they fail and lose the item, they lose far less money.
-More NQ armor will appear and the market would become less demanding. This would help many, many people who need the armor. This would also lower the price the normal materials as well.
-Many people will like this change and see it as if SE cares. The only people being hurt by this are the gil sellers, who all but monopolize these items.

Thank you for listening.

I just sent this to SE ;o.

[Aeni]

You're going to have crafters that will not be satisfied (But then again, there's always that kind of people out there) They will say, add these items too! Shining Cloth, Avatar Blood, Kunwu Ores, Angel Skin, etc.

Also, will NMs still drop the items normally? Then this is indeed a way for crafter's to make money, but how does this lower the price? Can you really be sure the crafter's won't just use the price history?

[Blood Red Poet]

There will be more on the market, people will undercut, without a loss.

[Aeni]

Well, that also depends on how many crafters there are with the skills required to craft those items. On Hades, I think there's like maybe 3 to 5 players that I see actively synthing the higher end smithing items and selling on AH. Majority of smithers are either not interested in plying their trade, are too busy desynthing for profit (i.e., Quad Backplate > Darksteel Ingots) or don't have the necessary skill requirements to synth in the first place (i.e., I hope people do realize that you need more than just a high smithing skill to make something like a Haubergeon, which uses a lot of cloth materials)

If you look at it from that perspective and then look at the rate in which GP item dependant recipes are made, then you'll see how insignificant this increase in supply really is. Also note that, unlike a real world population, server population is pretty finite, with people leaving at about the same rate as people joining (At this mature stage in the game's lifespan) I really doubt XBox360 will bring in much more new customers, as majority of these players already own a PC version account.

Once you hit a threshold of people having what they need, you will hit critical mass at which the economy will just crumble under it's own weight. You're pushing for supply to outstrip demand so that prices may fall, yet not realize what solution you will have once everyone that could purchase that particular item already purchased one.

At the same time, on my server, you could have 10 hauberks up for sale and the price never seem to have decreased. It only increases with time. Again, not sure what exactly this is going to do, but in small quantities, it won't do anything and in large flood quantities, you're going to destroy crafting stability by having too many items (which were meant to be rare) in the hands of many people which will immediately drop the worth of the item.

[Selenitic]

Communism!

[Plenum]

Communism!

I was afriad someone who see it like this. Thank You for bringing it up Selenitic.

I would much rather looked at control of the market in a mixed economic point of view.

America - Economic system is a mixed one where government steps in at times in need or trouble. Viewed as a Captialistic makret but in it underlies some ideas of socialism.

Europe - Heavy government assistance to the economy.

China - A communist government. Almost total government control, but in it underlies some captialistic values.

Of course you can learn this in... 10th grade? 11th grade?

I am currently doing a huge managment presentation to the executives of EA Games so I will be a bit busy this week. I've read your comments but I cannot write a reply. I don't want to write a half-assed response cause some of the ideas mentioned were very unique and I would like to expand on them. Unfortunately the rule of thumb comes into play. Real Life before game life. So I'll be back tommrow or maybe tuesday night. This report is pretty interesting (EA Games) but I will be back soon enough to talk more about Economic fixings in FFXI.

I just would like to add that I believe unity among memebers is important. We all get one vote in real life, unless you are from a non-democratic nation. We all have a say in this and we are the ones who pay SE for this game. We have a lot more power than one might think they do. Do not let the big guys push you around.

[safyre]

Wow, I'm so impressed, and just rather joyful at the ideas this post has brought out amongst our fellow players. I think we need to make sure this post is better seen on the forum, because of the fact that is not only enjoying to read, but also brings people's ideas together to help fix one of FFXI's biggest problems.

On another note I believe that we have put aside one of the problems largest components, i.e. gilsellers. Gilsellers, though banned from the game, seem to thrive amongst the masses at all times. SE has said before that they are doing everything they can to stop this problem, but do we really see the change they are trying to describe, or simply the opposite. Gilsellers not only thrive, they have increased into larger numbers. At no time have I seen the number of gilsellers decrease even with the watchful eye of SE. Are we to question the maker? I think it would be wise for players as a whole to put more pressure on SE to the fact that we want change, and deserve change.

What can we ourselves do to enact change with gilsellers? Stop buying gil is one of the best answers, and also one of the most unlikely due to the current economic situation. What else? I love the idea of government in pure form, but I also know that those ideas can be easily twisted. Wouldn't that be interesting? A Grand Council for a government, with elected members to a central power in jueno? The thought itself thrills me. Perhaps the rule of our impartial NPC governments are not satisfying us? Anyways, better to think of the things that a government can do against gilsellers, maybe help investigate, or put more pressure on SE where needed? I'm not sure of all it's applications, but I'm just being ideal once again, huh?

Sincerely,
ARSafyre

p.s.- I truly hope this topic goes strong! Viva la Vana'Diel!

[kuu]

Well, that also depends on how many crafters there are with the skills required to craft those items. On Hades, I think there's like maybe 3 to 5 players that I see actively synthing the higher end smithing items and selling on AH. Majority of smithers are either not interested in plying their trade, are too busy desynthing for profit (i.e., Quad Backplate > Darksteel Ingots) or don't have the necessary skill requirements to synth in the first place (i.e., I hope people do realize that you need more than just a high smithing skill to make something like a Haubergeon, which uses a lot of cloth materials)

If you look at it from that perspective and then look at the rate in which GP item dependant recipes are made, then you'll see how insignificant this increase insupply really is. Also note that, unlike a real world population, server population is pretty finite, with people leaving at about the same rate as people joining (At this mature stage in the game's lifespan) I really doubt XBox360 will bring in much more new customers, as majority of these players already own a PC version account.

Once you hit a threshold of people having what they need, you will hit critical mass at which the economy will just crumble under it's own weight. You're pushing for supply to outstrip demand so that prices may fall, yet not realize what solution you will have once everyone that could purchase that particular item already purchased one.

At the same time, on my server, you could have 10 hauberks up for sale and the price never seem to have decreased. It only increases with time. Again, not sure what exactly this is going to do, but in small quantities, it won't do anything and in large flood quantities, you're going to destroy crafting stability by having too many items (which were meant to be rare) in the hands of many people which will immediately drop the worth of the item.

True and untrue.
That our sun will go nova, and anyone living in the solar system will die a cruel death...more or less a fact. It's also a couple of milion life times away, which is also true.

When we talk about short-term medium, and long term, we have to keep things in perspective. In the end, it does reflect the real world, and neither I or SE really cares unless a crash hits in the next 4 months.. FFxi is not expected to last long enough for a market to crash. IF not SE changing the game with every update, shifting it around, people would leave before there was ever a crash.

There is also the fact that dispite what people think. The "market" is a self-correcting mechism and thus the orginal poster is most likely wrong because of this fact. The more you interfere with it, the more you can screw it up. Empirical evidence both in real world and FFxi proves this.

Every update, we get something, and some growing pains..it's usually what happens when you mess with the market, but it's the cost we bare for new equipment, BCNMs, NMs, etc. It displaces someone..maybe all of a sudden your sole fishing income turns to mush...it always happens

If you think the economy is bad now, wait till ToA...it's going to be really messy then, count on it.

To sum it up bascially. The fastest way to fix an "market" is to do nothing and fix it itself. It hurts(and some countries it has killed before it can heal).

This is where SE comes in, and no one else. Players do not have foresight, or the power(being on the inside) to "fix" things or rather more economically speaking (to lessen the burden on the suffering) when the market decides to come down on them. SE tries to please "everyone" without screwing it up worse. That's heck of a lot better them some of the suggestions I've heard from regular players.

[(Takemuke)]

I think we need to make sure this post is better seen on the forum, because of the fact that is not only enjoying to read, but also brings people's ideas together to help fix one of FFXI's biggest problems.




It WAS enjoying to read... but after the 34324508745 post about it, it got a little bit overdone.

[Enialas]

Fire Ore : Supply 1 Going Rate : 250k

2 weeks later

Fire Ore : Supply 21 Going Rate : 580k

wtf!?
well it's actually good for me so i only need to sell 1 Fire Ore to be able to afford the Erase Spell Scroll.

FFXI isn't a true supply-demand model though in most aspects it is one. maybe this was just a bad example?

[Lakai]

Most crafters make marginal profits on SH to begin with, the main dictation of sh price from my gatherings is the influx of how many Venomous claws are on sale, or are being put on sale. Usually a regular SH sells for almost the same amount as a Ven. Claw on my server, leaving a small profit unless the crafter HQs. i think the only way to really fix the economy is to make everything worthless...(rare/ex) to where you can't sell it to anyone else, which means everyone would have to pull their own weight and get their own stuff. This would mean drop rates would be increased and perhaps long wait times would get cut down maybe a little bit. But I don't know too much about this stuff; that is my 2 cents regardless though.

[Karinya]

Making everything EX would be insane. Crafting would become an even bigger money sink (you can't sell ANYTHING?) and also necessary - if you want any crafted item you'd have to skill up and craft it yourself. And Altana help the person who wants a SH *and* a Haub... getting the materials would be the easy part.


The economy isn't broken. It works fine. Not everyone has everything they want because drop rates are deliberately set low so that certain items will be hard to get. People that work harder for them have a better chance of getting them - either as drops directly, or by getting the materials and commissioning a synth, or by collecting stuff other people want and selling it at AH.

Gilsellers subvert the system by offering to trade your RL money to have them make the in-game effort to make gil, but even they are adding useful items to the economy; they have to. Eliminating gilsellers wouldn't eliminate inflation. Their gil isn't magic, it comes from selling things they farm/camp - which means ultimately it comes from other players.

How many people on this thread even know what economics *is*, or the difference between money and wealth, or other basic economic concepts? Did the person who posted "Hey Adam Smith, your system doesn't work" even know what Adam Smith said? (FWIW, we don't in fact have Adam Smith's system in FFXI. Crafting skillup is a HUGE entry barrier, which is exactly what he recommended NOT having.)

The amount of gil in circulation certainly seems to be higher than it was a year ago. SE *is* doing something about the problem, though - restructuring AH fees, introducing Dynamis, outpost teleports, NPC items raising in price after they are bought out are all ways of draining more gil out of the economy. They don't want to overdo it and crash the global gil supply and cripple the economy, so they take baby steps and people whine because the problem isn't fixed yet.

Regardless, the devaluation of gil does not imply that the economy is broken. Gil is just another commodity - one that happens to be worth much less than it was a year or two ago.

The amount of fire crystals, or beehive chips, or darksteel ores it takes to buy a haubergeon, Ochiudo's kote, or a scroll of Erase is not that different than it ever was. It's only from a gil-centered perspective that it looks like things are out of control.

Every day, people sell items they have and don't need to buy items they need and don't have. That's the economy. Working.

[kuu]

Fire Ore : Supply 1 Going Rate : 250k

2 weeks later

Fire Ore : Supply 21 Going Rate : 580k

wtf!?
well it's actually good for me so i only need to sell 1 Fire Ore to be able to afford the Erase Spell Scroll.

FFXI isn't a true supply-demand model though in most aspects it is one. maybe this was just a bad example?

Almost nothing in real-life is a true supply vs demand model. If it was, we wouldn't need more then 1 economics class.

It is a lot closer then real-world though, which makes apply economics easier, because we have less varibles when trying delve into it, liek not needing to know about banking system, because we don't have banking in ffxi.

for example:

basically s vs d structure assumes that everyone has perfect knowledge of the market, and has instanteious transaction, and transportation. Well real world is more complicated, with those above...but ffxi is a lot closer.

Or the biggie, identical products. There is no bad SH. They are all stat the same, no depriciation at all. there is no "New" and "used". We don't need to throw in complicated stuff that fuzzes numbers.

We have a price history, and AH+ moogle, which is an acturate if not complete system, and sell/bidding takes less the 3 seconds, with ffxi, going to jueno no more then half an hour or less, or instant commication with friends "near AH".

The "not true" part is FFxi's NPC system and other assortments. They floor or ceiling a price, because no matter how rare chainmail is, it'll not go above 20k because bastok sells it for 18k. Same with selling off... But that's part of economics too. Active government control to intenally promote something is nothing new. Tax's, subsidizing, etc.

As I mentioned the market is very rough on the poor, the slow, the weak, etc...in basic terms, the minority gets shafted. SE helps the poor when it can, but like any governing being, it's trying to be even handed, and not just give away free peakcock's to anyone making 20k a day.

FFxi economy worse pretty well, the only problem is updates, which causes "fluctuations" it's changing the rules. Like how hockey rules changed. At first everyone is doing screwy, but as people astart adapt it goes back down.

And what is posted above is quite natural. prices go up, people want to cash in, more stock comes, and it reaches the point where people have to lower prices or it won't sell. You just had it in the middle.

Gilseller like I said is more of of RL problem then ffxi problem. $1 = 7yuan is a heck of a way to let people get cheap labor out of others. Why farm 100k when you can buy it? and spend a minute of expense. even at $7/hr minium wage in NA, that's like pennies at prices gilsellers are giving you.