ELeMeN RMT article

[Rai]

http://www5.plala.or.jp/SQR/ff11/archives/special/rmt.html

I like to go to their site and see if I can figure out anything new or special we don't get on our NA FFXI sites

They seem to have an in depth article on RMT at their site. Here is the bable fish translation.

http://babel.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww5.plala.or.jp%2fSQR%2fff11%2 farchives%2fspecial%2frmt.html


I was wondering if any of the Japanese speaking posters could take a look and let us know what this article is about.

Thank you.

[Aeni]

Here is what I got from the first few paragraphs:

This site, as a PlayOnline Community, has always been maintained with accordance and have been respectful to the policies of PlayOnline. To that end, we have taken a similar stance against RMT as it is in clear violation of the policies of PlayOnline.

This article was presented to you with as little biasness as possible. However, due to our policies and stance as stated above, the information presented will be highly critical on the issue of RMT.

The whole phenomenon of RMT was first made apparent following the North American release of FFXI. Because of the near nonexistence of RMT prior to this time period, the appearance of RMT has been made conspicuous and the future of this development is as of yet uncertain.

=======================

Basically, the whole article then goes on to review the past problems, including rusty cap fishing and the like, and basically tries to uncover the methodology of RMT practice and how the phenomenon came to being.

I have to agree, though, that the whole issue of RMT was not a problem prior to NA release, regardless of just how much or how little activity there were. Immediately following the release, RMT became more noticeable.

The article is controversial and I'm sure will start many flame wars of which I will not illuminate at this point. I've yet to read the whole thing, but I know that some of you will not like it.

>_<





Another interesting point in the article, about 2/3 of the way down, included some sources of polls and studies done with regards to online gaming. About Koreans with regards to their minors playing games online and citing it as problematic and bordering on psychological issues while the minors in Japan can control their addiction far better (I think that was what it translated to) and I guess it doesn't help the image for Koreans when news about so-and-so marathoning an online game like StarCraft and passing away due to exhaustion.

Other points were made that majority of RMT use NA client to "farm" the gil and some sources cited that majority of RMT customers are players residing in the NA territories. Again, this is what the article has said and some of you may take offense.

In no ways, however, are they blaming the NA community at large, but at the same time, they are taking this issue with a controversial stance.

*dons flame suit*

[Alucath]

So.. they're not blaming the NA for RMT... but they're hinting that it's our fault @.@ because gilbuyers live in NA.

That's not cool >.>.

[fuz]

NA's aren't much nicer, blaming RMT on Chinese all the time... but I digress.

While there is probably a certain truth to it, part of me suspicious about the writer being xenophobic. (I get that general feel whenever I travel to JP) There is a semi-underground resentment in JP today where some are are quick to blame all non JP for problems, and showing them as inferior--even sub-human. In particular, some favorite targets of recent accusations are the Koreans and the Chinese.

Reminds me of the KKK somewhat, but more grassroots in form. Noticed some extremely racist manga poping up, saying some pretty... mean stuff.

Oh well, just had to share. :3

[lionx]

While there is probably a certain truth to it, part of me suspicious about the writer being xenophobic. (I get that general feel whenever I travel to JP) There is a semi-underground resentment in JP today where some are are quick to blame all non JP for problems, and showing them as inferior--even sub-human. In particular, some favorite targets of recent accusations are the Koreans and the Chinese.

I agree entirely, while i am not saying every Japanese does this, i have a huge feeling that alot of them do somehow.

But regardless, its not a matter of race or anything, if its true that more people living in NA purchase gil that doesnt mean that NA is the source of all controversy and everything surrounding RMT, just like there might be more Chinese farmers, doesnt mean that they are entire source around it either.

I just found it funny how they generalize everything into groups, NA, Chinese farmers, Korean stuff...blah thats a nice way of putting things unbiasly.

[(Takemuke)]

So.. they're not blaming the NA for RMT... but they're hinting that it's our fault @.@ because gilbuyers live in NA.

That's not cool >.>.



word.

[DakAttack]

I don't see it as offensive at all. Our society has a lot more problems than Japan's society and we brought each one along with us once the game was released in America. Lie, cheat, steal, all to get ahead, are all familiar mannerisms of Americans. Though sterotypical, they do apply to about 60% of us. IGE is American, and so are the several other companies and private sellers that ruin our economies.

This is just the way I see it, and I see things pretty clearly. I'm not siding with anyone, but I wont deny the truth either.

[Alucath]

I don't really think I'm being -that- naive when I say that I think the majority of the American population doesn't "Lie, cheat, steal, all to get ahead".

I find what you said there more offensive than anything in that article, don't care what nation you're from :o.

[eriatarka]

there not putting all the blame on us there just saying it became more noticible meaning there was gil buying around before we came but after we came there was just ALOT more then before. the reason we say "chinese gil seller" is because a big of gil sellers ARE chinese.

[Rai]

I got the game at just prior to the NA PS2 launch. I got the PC version 2 weeks before the PS2 launch becasue after seeing screen shots in a PS2 Magazine I couldn't wait, and built a PC to play the game.

After playing a couple weeks I needed to figure out how to play the game. I googled FFXI and such and the first 3 or 4 sights I ended up at were JP gil selling sites and not NA gil selling sights... strange. The pages were in Japanese and it was a list and the prices were listed with the yen symbol. I thought "oh wow no wonder all the Japanese players have such good stuff." I didn't even know that the game had been out as long as it had at the time.

[lionx]

In that case then, we say NA gilbuyers, because most of the people that buy gil ARE NA.

[eriatarka]

im not so great at saying what i mean over the keyboard so ill try to elaborate... what i mean is people who log onto ffxi everyday for the point of getting gil to sell to companies are usually chinese, im sure you know of all the workshops that are set up for this. there arent actually jobs in this country that will pay you minimum wage to farm gil. if its an american selling gil its just some random guy who all the sudden decides he has too much and wants to buy some sweet plushies or something i dont really know...


its not like theres records of How many NA's bought / sold gil, how many JP's bought / sold gil, and how many Chinese bought / sold gil. its all speculation unless someone can enlighten me with facts on how they know were not the majority of the gil buyers.

and one more thing, when people say "chinese gil sellers" alot of the time there actually referring to people who actually ARE chinese, and not just saying all sellers are chinese

[lionx]

Thats funny in a way because never have i seen Indian gilseller or Japanese gilseller or etc something like that, all i see is Chinese and it seems to single them out and all i have to say is it really does feel like discrimmination. Whether they be the majority or not, i hope you understand where that comes from. Hence i just label them gilseller, but i wont really label anyone as a gilseller ever(unlike people who says "OMG THATS A GILSELLER!" JUST because they are camping the same NM or have a lower rank -_-..).

In any case, economical times over there makes this happen, if US is in the same state i wont doubt it might happen too. But i hope you understand what i mean when people say "Chinese gilseller" and singling out someone(and only chinese). Gilsellers are gilsellers, who gives a crap what race?

Although i do apologize in advance if i seem rude, it does get a little touchy at times when it comes to this for me and i hope you understand why. It sometimes turns me off playing the game.

NA "may" buy the most gil, and Chinese "may" sell the most, but i really dont see why anyone needs to go beyond gilbuyer/gilseller.

[eriatarka]

i personally dont use the term "chinese gil selller" ( probobly the reason i always use it in quots ) lol, but alot of people use it because still the majority of sellers ( allegitly) are chinese and to them im guessing chinese gil sellers are worse than any other gil seller. I think they are worse because they do operate in groups unlike NA sellers. you dont see too many groups of noob NA's trying to level up and farm together so they can sell gil.

[fuz]

It's a fine line to walk, but I do belive that the majority of gil-farming is done by chinese. It is incorrect to say gillsellers are chinese, or in general say that chinese players are there for RMT, but there is a pretty good sense that a lot of gill sellers are chinese. How to comment on that is difficult.

There was always a RMT presence with the JP side (even I've seen the gil selling sites). But with the much more cuthroat culture of the USA, I think RMT became much more prevalent with our much less patient 'got to be best' attitude. I don't like swipes that make NA players look bad in general, but it may be the truth for a good number of people. Again, difficult to comment in a non-bais manner. You're going to step on some toes no matter which side you take.

On a side note I couldn't make sense of their data figures. It all looked made up to me.

[x1ang]

that's why you should just say "gilsellers" and leave out the "chinese" party -__-


...or everyone can just start saying damn "american gilbuyers" =|

[Aeni]

Someone mentioned that there's no way to know where the gil buyers live? It’s not hard to do. First of all, when giving up your credit card, you usually have to fill out a form which has your billing address. That is because many credit card processing companies will verify the person submitting the credit card number with the zip code of the billing address kept in the bank’s database. Now, they have added CVM numbers for additional security.

BTW, IGE is not American company. Their company is actually listed with a business address some place in Hong Kong or Taiwan. So are many other companies. There is one company, however, MOGS, which do operate in the U.S. and as such, must keep records of every transaction. Even IGE will do this. A simple inquiry, disguised as a business newsreporter requesting the break down of regional gil buying can be made and the data will be provided. As such, that is where this notion that most of the gil buying are done by NA players were made. Simply because these gil selling companies know that already. LOL. You cannot lie about that now, can you?

[DakAttack]

It's located in Hong Kong, but the guy who runs it is American. :thumbsup:

I find what you said there more offensive than anything in that article, don't care what nation you're from :o

Open your eyes and you'll get over it. :thumbsup:

[Aeni]

It's located in Hong Kong, but the guy who runs it is American. :thumbsup:

That may be so, but the company itself is not American, it is a Hong Kong registered business, paying taxes to the government there. :cool:

Addendum: Otherwise, it would've been a simple matter for SE to shut down IGE if they were an American company, doncha think?

[Pounce]

Thats funny in a way because never have i seen Indian gilseller or Japanese gilseller or etc something like that, all i see is Chinese and it seems to single them out and all i have to say is it really does feel like discrimmination. Whether they be the majority or not, i hope you understand where that comes from. Hence i just label them gilseller, but i wont really label anyone as a gilseller ever(unlike people who says "OMG THATS A GILSELLER!" JUST because they are camping the same NM or have a lower rank -_-..).

In any case, economical times over there makes this happen, if US is in the same state i wont doubt it might happen too. But i hope you understand what i mean when people say "Chinese gilseller" and singling out someone(and only chinese). Gilsellers are gilsellers, who gives a crap what race?

Although i do apologize in advance if i seem rude, it does get a little touchy at times when it comes to this for me and i hope you understand why. It sometimes turns me off playing the game.

NA "may" buy the most gil, and Chinese "may" sell the most, but i really dont see why anyone needs to go beyond gilbuyer/gilseller.

I find it odd that people take offense at this at all.

I've never seen a professional Indian gilseller or a Japanese gilseller or an American gilseller. Individuals who every now and then sell virtual currency for some pocket change? Yes. But professionals who do it as their full time job? No.

Literally 100% of the RMTs I've seen not only in this game, but in WoW too have been Chinese. Even my Chinese friends admit this.

Do I think every Chinese is a gilseller? Obviously not. But do I think most professional gilsellers in FFXI and many other MMORPGs are Chinese? Probably.

I don't see the point in covering up cold hard facts for the sake of political correctness. It's like airport security wasting resources strip-searching a 90 year old French Catholic nun for hidden bombs just because they have to be politically correct.

Not to sound racist at all, but if I'm head of airport security and I've been given a suicide bomber warning, I'm going to prioritize looking for one specific group of people and not waste my time with 90 year old nuns.

My own country has it's shameful facets too. Heck we have an estranged "brother country" to our north that's probably the laughingstock of the world. Am I ashamed of them? Yes. Do I pretend they don't exist? No.

[lionx]

Then i guess no one should complain when we say NA gilbuyers.

[Aeni]

lionx, I undestand why you're sensitive to this subject, as I can only guess your lineage is that of Chinese ancestry (I mean, your profile just screams this, whether you want to admit it or not :P )

For everyone here, professional gil sellers are not necessarily Chinese. I have encountered a Russian group before on Ragnarok a while back and I know there's an article from 1UP that had explicitly stated that there is a gil selling company that is based in Russia using Russian minimum wage workers. So yes, non chinese "professional" gil sellers did exist in this game. Whether or not they are still active or were victim to the deleted accounts a while back, I do not know.

[x1ang]

why even bother with including "chinese" in "chinese gilseller"? why not just "gilseller"? whats the point in acknowledging race in this issue when you can just say "gilseller" and include all gilsellers no matter of what race? why not, as lionx said, just start coining gilbuyers as "na gilbuyers"?

[soneill1986]

What the heck does RMT mean? I was never good with acronyms and I just can't figure this out?

[Rodin]

The thing about saying "Chinese" gilseller is very important. China has not come aboard on much of the international trade laws and regulations set forth in the recent years. Meaning, they can pretty much do whatever they want and not be punished by violating another company's ToS. Yes, there are other gilsellers from other places, but every time I have seen one they speak in Mandarin, which I have actually learned pretty well from some of my friends. Next time you're at an HNM spawn, say "Wo cao ni ma wo ma ma" to a suspected gilseller, and see what they do. SE will have a hard time trying to shut down a chinese company. Right now the only way I could see SE making a swift solution to the problem would be to block every IP address coming from China. But I know many people wouldn't like that because I know a lot of Chinese importers that aren't gilsellers, and they're very cool. But, gilselling (Chinese or not) is destructive to the economy in FFXI. It NEEDS to be stopped, so people who try to make gil honestly won't have to combat rising prices on certain items that many gilsellers have a stranglehold on (example...Nozokimi has been the ONLY person on our server who has gotten regular claims on Siren's Hair in the last 2 months....the price of cursed gear has doubled in two months.)

[DakAttack]

RMT means Real Market Trade. There's still a bit of bad blood between Japan and China, so it might not be the best move for a Japanese company to be picking on poor Chinese citizens.

[Aeni]

Right now the only way I could see SE making a swift solution to the problem would be to block every IP address coming from China. But I know many people wouldn't like that because I know a lot of Chinese importers that aren't gilsellers, and they're very cool.

Are you assuming these very same people live in China? Some of them may be of chinese in origin and may have command of the language, but do not necessarily live in China. From what I understand, a large percentage of the chinese player base hail from Canada and Australia, seeing the tie with British colonization of Hong Kong before that land was turned over to China in '96 (or was it '95, I can't remember it correctly) Other countries can also include Singapore, Taiwan and Southeast Asia (Canton region) I know that in Singapore, the laws are very strict and they have strong respect for international trade laws and that anyone caught doing RMT and what have you would be prosecuted and punished VERY severely (Frick, they give prison time for spitting on the sidewalk, so imagine life in prison for RMT lol)

Anyway, going offtopic, but if you do read the Player Agreement charter, SE has already stated that importing and playing the game will not be supported. In other words, if you're living in a territory and have a problem, you forfeited all rights to legal recourse and action simply because the game is not supported or officially recognized by the company in that territory.

That means if SE is going to block out IP if you live in China, then boohoo to you. In the first place, you weren't suppose to play the game and legally speaking, SE has every right to shaft you because of this.

But, gilselling (Chinese or not) is destructive to the economy in FFXI. It NEEDS to be stopped, so people who try to make gil honestly won't have to combat rising prices on certain items that many gilsellers have a stranglehold on (example...Nozokimi has been the ONLY person on our server who has gotten regular claims on Siren's Hair in the last 2 months....the price of cursed gear has doubled in two months.)

There's no truth to this at all. Simply getting rid of Nozokimi will mean nothing. Another player or HNM LS or what have you will claim the drop and monopolize the industry. How can you say for sure that an NA player won't be monopolizing the drops and start charging crafters 5 times more than what Nozokimi is?

[Lakai]

They aren't hinting its "our" fault. People in Japan buy gil... people in europe buy gil... why else would they have web pages with all those different languages? I think it might have something do do with the huge boom in the influx of new players to the community. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but Japan and China aren't on much of what I would call good terms, so RMT based in China probably would be more inclined to buy the North American release of the game perhaps... just a theory on that. Or like someone else said, they might not even live in China they could be based somewhere where english is a main language and the NA version of FFXI would be way more convienient to use.

[Alontier]

Right now the only way I could see SE making a swift solution to the problem would be to block every IP address coming from China.I read an interesting interview some weeks ago where the DE development and
management crew were answering questions regarding including these matters.
∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨ ∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨ ∵¨
Their response about blocking IP's (from China) was that while these Asian
countries are not included in the suppored regions, it isn't against the regulations
either to access from these regions. (as an example, a FFXI player traveling abroad
should always be able to login wherever they are).

Also it isn't only the sellers that are guilty but also the buyers and just blocking
their IP's will just not have the desired effect as many of these connections go through
proxies. (Same can be said of DDoS attacks that randomly change and disguise their IP.)
∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨ ∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨ ∵¨

The steps they are taking against RMT (and external hack tools):
∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨ ∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨ ∵¨
They are doing followup surveys with the help of detailed logging serverside,
some ties outside of the game (?not sure what they mean by that)
and not to forget GM monitoring (pffft).
That may result in pebalizing all parts invalved.

∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨ ∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨∵¨ ∵¨
Meaning that even if it wasn't observed directly, they might get punished for it later on.

<edit>
Sorry, I forgot to link the source as usual.
This was also linked from the eLeMeN News page under "NEWS:2005-11-25"
https://ff11.gameinside.info/news/?sact=data&news=48

I just noticed that Aeni also mentioned this article in her first reply...