Summoner PT role besides just healing?

[Auron517]

Now, I've partied with a fair share of Summoners, but I realized that they're the only job that I'm clueless about. The leader will usually invite a Summoner to main heal since there's no WHM seeking, or if I join a Party with a summoner already in it, they usually just have their Avatar out meeleing the whole time.

I'm guilty of inviting summoners just to heal also, but that's because I don't know what else they can do. Ive heard that SMN damage dealing really kicks off 70+, but I doubt i'll be reaching endgame any time soon.

Can any of the SMNs here give me advice on how to utilize Summoners before the higher levels besides just spamming cure?

[WishMaster3K]

As a RDM, I get the pleasure of watching the battle from the background, enfeebling the mob and watching the change it does for the front line, and buffing the Mages so I can monitor them, hence, here are MY thoughts, as a humble RDM.

It is true that SMNs get invited in place of a WHM. And there are things a SMN can do that a WHM can't. Keep in mind that WHMs get awsome spells like Regen3 and Raise2 and 3, in addition to Stona(petrify) and another WHM only status heal.

SMN/WHM can do some healing, sure, but only up to Cure3. But what makes a SMN shine is not if they try to be a gimp WHM, but if they use their avatars for PT buffs to curb damage in place of a WHM's healing.

Titan has a Stoneskin move and a really damaging punch thing
Shiva has Hastega (doesnt last as long as Haste, but i's kool cause it's AOE) and AOE Blink
Leviathin's water heal move is like an AOE Cure 3.5, and heals all status at thtet cost of 99MP(SMNs like to complain about that -.-)
Curbuncle's Healing RubyII is very good, another AOECure2.5

In terms of pt buffs, that's all you see, but I'd like to point out also that Avatar's are very awsome. I've heard that when doing their special moves, they ignore defense, that's why their specials are always in excess of 900+ damage. And when I saw Ramah MB Thunder4 to the Light Skillchain, I almost cried.

So SMNs are very flexible, and if you've only seen them as replacement WHMs, then you haven't seen their full potential since they aren't focus on PT buffs and damage, but PTbuffs and healing.

And this is only what this humble RDM has seen in action. I have never raised SMN nor talked to them, so I don't know all the ins and outs.

[PyrroNeko]

Nice words there, WishMaster. n_n You just changed my thought of getting a SMN earilier by alot.

[Balfree]

Just correcting WishMaster3K on some points, so aspiring SMNs dont get confused:

Garuda does Hastega and AOE Blink, unlike Shiva like he stated.

Also, do not forget Fenrir's buffs: Increase to all stats and Increase to Dodge and Accuracy stats later on.

[Auron517]

I see, SMNs can be used as a support using their Bloodpacts to buff the pt. Can a SMN take the place of a BRD or RDM in a PT as a support as well then?

I also assume that inviting SMNs for damage isn't great until the 70s?

[WishMaster3K]

Haha, sorry Balfree, yeah, it's Garuda, i dun know why I was thinking shiva *_*

As for taking the place? Hmm. . . It's hard to party past the 50s without some form of Refresh, so BRDs and RDMs are generally in High Demand. SMN can take the place of a BLM, in terms of doing damage with Avatar and MBing, but that's only if there is already a RDM or BRD and a WHM.

Just like how a RDM can main heal if there are other jobs around to take some of the slack, a SMN can fit a few roles if there are corresponding jobs around.

[Grissom]

I see, SMNs can be used as a support using their Bloodpacts to buff the pt. Can a SMN take the place of a BRD or RDM in a PT as a support as well then?

I also assume that inviting SMNs for damage isn't great until the 70s?

Our bloodpack are to long for us to be able to replace them and I agree that past 40+ refresh is sort of neccesary.

[Auron517]

Our bloodpack are to long for us to be able to replace them and I agree that past 40+ refresh is sort of neccesary.

Well, then again, there's always juice...but for some reason, people don't like to use those...

[Enialas]

In addendum: what Shiva does do is frost armor. ie Ice Spikesga and while doing minimal damage to attacker, it does have a chance to paralyze the mob.

post 40, w/ a smn trying to take the place of a brd or rdm, {Um...} If smns want Refresh (which they do) despite thier Auto-refresh (self only) which does stack with Refresh. (1mp tic + 3 mp tic) you won't be looking for rdm brd or smn, but rdm or brd. smns despite thier support is in a whole different class than the rdm vs brd support that people want.

/whm is useful if there isn't a whm in the party, which unfortunately usually there isn't, but outside the massive mp pool compared to rdm, a rdm/whm is much better at main heal than smn/whm and a rdm/blm is a little better in the regards of "emergency cures."

when I'm in a pt with a smn, i assist main heal so they can do what makes smns shine, we often keep it balanced so we can both mb. smns have such nice BPs that if they're alloweb by the party can really alleviate damage and help the pt kill the mob quicker.

[Icemage]

Another often-overlooked feature of SMN is that of damage dealer. Lower level attack bloodpacts can form skillchains, and while avatars don't deal the damage a full-time attacker would do, certain abilities such as Shiva's Double Slap deal quite good damage, and can produce level 2 skillchains as well.

While it's rare to see groups that are open-minded enough to let SMNs do this, I do sometimes invite SMNs to be attackers, when I've got an "extra" WS in the party, from the main tank for instance. This allows for a second burstable skillchain, which can greatly speed up kill speed. SMN + NIN + RDM + DD + DD + BLM is a very potent group combination when used properly.

The myth that SMN are only good attackers post-70 should be imploded. It simply is not true since the lower level BP attacks were upgraded.


Icemage

[Jei]

Right now my summoner is 36. Surprisingly I didn't always have to main heal. Sometimes I was asked to and I acutally don't mind. But I got to PT with Nin really often and healing isn't all that needed.

Fenrir's accuracy/evasion debuff has to be the spell I use the most. I got fenrir at level 30 and I instantly felt like I have something useful to do. I almost always start any battle with this.

Blinkga isn't all that great at my level. I have around 400 MP, blinkga takes 100+ mp to call garuda and cast it. Most of the times I was struggling to have enough MP through the whole battle. And with 2/3 melee subbing nin it isn't all that much of an addition. Once I got higher with more MP to spend and mobs hitting harder, I'm sure blinkga will come more into play.

Ifrit's double punch are quite nice. about 50% it will do full damage to IT++ mobs which is around 140-170 at level 36. Almost match THF SATA.

I do MB from time to time if my BP is ready.

[LadyPeorth]

At level 62, I can burst Water IV vs IT+ Orcs (I have near maxed staff skill) for around 567 damage. While it's not BLM burst, it certainly is better than most people give credit for.

[WishMaster3K]

I got mad when Ramah did thunder 4 to a Light SC. Just another SMN that did more MB damage than me. :(

[Enialas]

I got mad when Ramah did thunder 4 to a Light SC. Just another SMN that did more MB damage than me. :(

also considering when smns can mb IV spells, we rdms havent gotten III spells yet. I got my first tier III spell recently, guess that means blms moved on to tier IV now lol

[Kitalrez]

I see, SMNs can be used as a support using their Bloodpacts to buff the pt. Can a SMN take the place of a BRD or RDM in a PT as a support as well then?

Actually, yes we can. It's in a fairly specific, but increasingly more common instance: the "melee heavy" party. I'll give you an example:

NIN/WAR
NIN/WAR
THF
THF
BLM/WHM
SMN/WHM

As you can see in this setup, you really only have two mp users here, making a full time refresher kind of a waste. Also, most of your BLM nukes are going to be of the smaller variety here, since BLM really shouldn't be going overboard with a NIN tank like the AM MB skillchains you see with PLDs. Since the BLM isn't going to be drawing a lot of aggro here, you don't waste a lot of mp healing him. Which leaves you free to concentrate on things like Ecliptic Howl and Earthen Ward. Fight crabs or beetles using this setup and Aspir will take care of a lot of the mp refresh issues should they even arise. In ths party, you also want to use a lot of cookies and chocolates for mp refresh while healing. They don't last long, but stacks of 99 tend to cost roughly the same as stacks of 12 for other foods.


To give you an idea of what we can really do in a party, let me show you the group I was in last night. This is about the closest I tend to get to playing pure-SMN at my low 50s lvl, but it does give a good idea of what we're capable of in the mid-ranges.

Group Setup:
NIN/WAR
RDM/BLM
BLM/WHM
SMN/WHM
RNG/NIN
SAM/WAR

Now, RDM was 55 which kind of killed our exp/hr gain on Kuftal Crabs, but we did manage to chain pull with this setup to the point where my downtime was solely based on how long it took the RNG to run out and find a new target. My contribution was Ecliptic Howl at the beginning of the fight, and Earthen Ward about a minute later and again if needed later on. On one out of every 4 fights, I actually had to heal the NIN or BLM, but once these two figured out how to balance aggro, I usually spent the entire camp with 80%-full mp. If your NIN knows what they're doing, Ecliptic Howl can drastically reduce the amount of time you spend trying to heal everyone, especially if you're below 50% moonphase.


Just remember that there are three main support jobs:
RDM->BRD->SMN
The order from left to right is from most benefit to mp users to most benefit to melees. RDM tends to be more use to casters, since they don't use big group buffs and haste chains tend to screw up refresh chains. BRD is pretty much the support king, and we tend to be able to put our Bloodpacts to best use when there are a lot of people around to haste/acc buff/etc.

[WishMaster3K]

BLMs have about 3-4 Tier 3 -aga spells when we get our 3rd tier 3. I'm all exited about Aero3, and the BLM had been harassing Aeroga3 and Firaga and Thundaga and stuff. Very heart breaking. Thundaga3 is gonna be scary to tank through in exp. I don't envy tanks past 70 lol.

Titan has this punch thing I've only started seeing recently, and it's like. . . . Insanely strong. do avatars ignore mob defense or something? I've heard that barely mentioned.

[LadyPeorth]

At 70, Titan gets Mountain Buster. It's his level 70 Avatar Blood pact and one of the big 3: Spinning Dive and Predator Claws are the other 2. These are the preferred Avatar attacks because they are non-elemental, have low hits, and tend to a pretty high amount of damage. Mountain Buster does very very good damage, but most people don't use Titan because he has low accuracy.

[Icemage]

At 70, Titan gets Mountain Buster. It's his level 70 Avatar Blood pact and one of the big 3: Spinning Dive and Predator Claws are the other 2. These are the preferred Avatar attacks because they are non-elemental, have low hits, and tend to a pretty high amount of damage. Mountain Buster does very very good damage, but most people don't use Titan because he has low accuracy.

Titan's Mountain Buster is mostly useful because he's a single hit with some range, so there's less risk of "xxxx is too far away" eating your blood pact. It isn't as consistent or damaging as Spinning Dive, but it can be your only option if you're trying to hit a kited enemy.


Icemage

[Grissom]

Just had a beautiful pt taking me to 57-59. Could've got 60 but had a behemoth to run to ; ;. NIN, WAR/NIN, DRK, RDM, WHM, SMN(me). I buffed, helped heal, doubled slaped, double punched, meteorite'd, Tail wiped.

Just parties like these that remind you why you love the job so much. Just all this crap we can do is sick =X

[Medalink]

I was reading over this and thought I should add some, here goes:

Summoner can do alot of things well, SMN's dont have to have RDM or BRD to Refersh as we have a large MP pool anyway. Refresh is more a luxery.

Fenrir: You can AoE Acc+ and Eva+ for DD and NIN tank, Dispel the mob, Lower the mobs Acc and Eva, and @65 Eclipse Bite does a nice amount of DMG. Theres also the Boost effect that raises your stats. Fenrir aslo has nice melee dmg. In Short Fenrir is the more BRD part of you, to help increase the PT's skills and decrease the mobs.

Shiva: Nice DD here, farily accurate and Double Slap gives nice DMG, also 60+ you get IV magic that can MB for alot.

Titan: AoE Stoneskin is very helpfull with NIN tank or a Nukeing BLM. Can save lives in many ocasions.

Ramauh: Shock Spikes is Nice for PLD tank to Paralyze the MOB like crazy, aswell as the added DMG.

Garuda: I never find Blinkaga very helpfull, nor Hastega unless you arent doing anything else.

All Avatars 60+ get IV magic, with a Caped Summoning Magic Skill and nice INT+ you can do 600-900 MB on SC's. And the great thing is you dont get hate, Timeing this right can save your BLM from pulling hate and getting hurt. If you time yours to land right after the BLMs your avatar can useally pull hate long ebough for a provoke.

At 70+ is when you become the DD you think you allways were. You can top 1000 DMG useing the BP's. Not to mention they look awsome.

I think that in a PT with just 2 mages (SMN as 1 and either WHM or BLM) can do just fine without Refresh, like Icemage said, in some (rare) cases people will invite you to DD only, giveing you the option to SC and have your avatar Melee.

In most cases were there is no BRD and you have Fenrir, you can buff the PT nicely giveing you the added option aswell. (In later levels)

I allways ask the PT what they want, if there missing alot. Or if Tank is haveing problems holding hate, I change to fit the PT, Thats what SMN's can do, Change to fit most situations. On one last note, MBing with your Astral Flow is also very fun, I have been trying to see what I can get, on a Gob in Onzozo @ level 60 I MB'd on Distortion with Shivas Diamond Dust for 1321. Thats the highest I have managed thus far. Its a fun way to play around. Well i hope this sheds some light on what all a SMN can do, or adapt to do. Thanks for reading. Later!

Medalink

[Gwynn]

SMN are fantastic. As a RDM, I prefer them to be main heal with a NIN tank. This way the SMN doesn't have to throw down tons of MP to keep the tank alive, and if the mob does get a huge hit in on the NIN, I can Cure IV while the SMN casts Cure III and have the tank back in working order. Add to this Earthen Ward, all of Fenrir's fantastic abilities, and the ability to MB the tier IV nukes and you have one outstanding character. While WHMs tend to get wasted on NIN, a SMN gets full use of their MP pool. If you think about it SMN are the closest job to a "Sage" (Tellah and FuSoYa from FFIV). My favorite PT set-up is: NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN, RNG/NIN, SMN/WHM, BLM/WHM, and me (RDM/BLM in this particular instance). I've actually had this set-up multiple times (sometimes the RNG was replaced by a SAM or THF, or other DD, but the principle remains the same) and every time the exp was great.

[Kardor]

Well Summoners are Power on Demand
While its true that you are dependant on brds or Rdm as extra support Summoners can fullfil almost any role in a Party: Healer,DD,Supporter.

Unfortunatly u will be forced to play the Healer way to often because ppl either cannot think about a usefull pt setup allowing to play the Smn his Job or there to lazy bout this.

If ure sick of healing and want to use some more of ure skills in battle i suggest to stick to Ninja Tanks since Paladins are helpless babys which will doom you to be a Cure 3 healing Tank.

An alternative Setup for Smn is

Nin/war
War/nin
Brd/whm
Blm/whatever
Smn/whm
Smn/whm

This party worked extremly well in Boyada tree at lvl 65 and allowed us Smn to just focus on our main Job since the cure which was needed could easily handled even by the brd.
With this pt setup we did bout 3.5k dmg with a single SC (rampage +3 Bursts)

Or an all out Smn party (2 smn and 1 brd can easily kill an IT Fly)

Just my 2 cents