Sub for WHM

[TGNExtendedGamer]

I have been told by many that Summoner is a great sub-job for WHM. I am a lvl 9 WHM and have been thinking about the future of my character. Those that told me said that the only reason was for the MP. Can someone please explain pros and cons? Thanks a bunch.

[Jei]

It's true that summoners have the highest MP in the game. However from 1-24 summoner doesn't get any useful ability just yet. Not enough to outweight blm.

50whm/25smn is when you get the MP-refresh trait from summoner. And a bit later on blinkga. These 2 are good for whm.

/blm offers some other benefits too. like escape and warp which are godly useful when you're finding chest or travelling through dungeons.

[Lythinari]

BLM is still a good sub, though I am not one to actually suggest you sub BLM, since mine is not at an acceptable level to sub for my WHM.
/smn is a good choice to sub for WHM, incase of thinking too far ahead, you can use your avatar area buffs for your party members, can be useful if you can chain some of these abilities together and form a blink wall for your party tankw hich maybe a pld.

One extremely good point is that /smn gives you extra clear mind - gives you more MP while you are resting I believe.
At 50 you get auto refresh for your whm, at 51 this becomes useful as you will catch up with MP quite fast.
If you get an item such as an aristocrats coat, clerics briault, royal cloak or any other armor piece with a refresh effect, it stacks with auto refresh.

It is nice to have, but if you are only going to plan to have smn for a subjob, it will be hard to level it up if you dont want to put much effort into getting it to 37.

I think it was a good subjob, I left my blm at a low level and took my smn subjob to 75.

[Karinya]

Like all other job traits duplicated between your main and sub jobs, you get only the single best clear mind trait of your main and sub jobs. So I don't think WHM/SMN has any extra clear mind over WHM/something else.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about WHM/BLM yet is Conserve MP. This is a very powerful ability that can randomly make ANY spell cost much less than its normal MP cost. The more MP worth of spells you cast, the more benefit you get from Conserve MP.

WHM/SMN = Most max MP of all subs, Auto-Refresh (1 mp/3 sec), Aerial Armor (other BPs not useful most of the time).
WHM/BLM = Conserve MP, Sleeps, Escape, Warp, Tractor (other BLM spells not useful most of the time).
WHM/RDM = Fast Cast (improves both casting and recast timers, but the amount you can get from SJ is fairly small), a little less maximum MP, Gravity, Dispel (other RDM spells not useful most of the time or duplicate spells you already have from WHM).
WHM/BRD = Madrigal for melees, Ballad for yourself and other mages. Lowest max MP. Very rare so I can't say much about it from experience. Enfeebling songs (lullaby, threnody, elegy) will probably not stick. Probably not useful if your party has a full bard.

I haven't heard of any other subjobs being useful in ordinary situations. SMN and BLM are the most popular/common subjobs for WHM and it's rare for anyone to ask why you chose them.

Oh yeah, and
WHM/Blue Mage = We'll find out in a few months. It might be worthwhile.

[TheGrandMom]

I'm not high on /smn for a taru whm. I think we have good enough mp and 99% of the time there is a refresher. I guess one of the reasons that I'm not a fan is that I've seen so many whm/smn's that don't even utilize their /smn abilities. Yes you don't have as many or they aren't as effective but there are times they do come in handy. I have a whm/smn in my hnm ls and I can count on one hand how many times she's utilized her sub. I on the other hand use my /blm sub every single time I exp or do an event.

[Lythinari]

My hnm ls uses avatars 99% of the time on /smn we need our smners to DD or stoneskin, I dont know what your talking about.
Not to mention, as /smn you are always using your smn subjob, refresh is always there.
Your clear mind is always there.

Just because you can use escape, warp as /blm doesnt mean that they have no 'aditional' abilities or traits avaliable.

If you wanted to go really radical, you could melee as WHM at a high level with /sam sub and use meditate to refresh your mp =P
quite useful actually.

[TheGrandMom]

My hnm ls uses avatars 99% of the time on /smn we need our smners to DD or stoneskin, I dont know what your talking about.

Did I say your hnm ls? I said a whm/smn in my hnm ls doesn't utilize her sub. I also stated that most of the /smn's I have pt'd with don't utilize it also. Others experiences may vary but its a common complaint from most of my friends and ls members.


If you wanted to go really radical, you could melee as WHM at a high level with /sam sub and use meditate to refresh your mp =P
quite useful actually.

Huh?? Meditate for mp?

/em walks away shaking her head and mumbling...

[Yossar]

Did I say your hnm ls? I said a whm/smn in my hnm ls doesn't utilize her sub. I also stated that most of the /smn's I have pt'd with don't utilize it also. Others experiences may vary but its a common complaint from most of my friends and ls members.




Huh?? Meditate for mp?

/em walks away shaking her head and mumbling...

I think he meant the club weapon skills that give MP, though I could be wrong. I can't imagine it would be that useful.

As for /SMN, you can't really say you don't utilize it as a sub. It's primary roles are MP Boosts and Auto-Refresh. I do agree that Tarus don't really need /SMN, though.

[Darkages]

i use smn for sub just because i need the extra mp since im a taru and all.lol but i use it to like just incase i need like a extra spell or extra dmg with like ifrit with spells fire 2 for mb if we dont have a blm which is more often then u think in crawlers nest and i just summon things and pull when the war is to lazy very bad to do but yhe partys im in dont care lol they rather risk me than a thf or a war just bc i have reraise

[TGNExtendedGamer]

Ah ok. Thanks for the help. That really helps me out a lot.

[Lythinari]

You think SAM is a wierd option to choose for a sub for a mage job?
ever thought of using that sub and putting it into spirit taker or havnt any of you mages leveled staff skill yet?
By far, spirit taker gives more MP over all than what moonlight or starlight would give to the wielder.
Its almost as blunt as saying why should WHM even consider rdm as a subjob if the refresher can dispel anyway, and the rostrum pumps already give fast cast?

Would you critisize that a Warrior cant be a true DD? or that a NIN cant sub BLM to be a ghetto tank & DD along the lines similar to a warrior?

Have you tried it, experienced it?
If you ask in these forums, I bet you that there are some summoners who have subbed Samurai for Summoner, and some radical WHM's which melee that have subbed Sam to meditate spirit taker.

As for SMN subjob and not being utilized, it is always utilized, just because a smner doesnt use their avatars doesnt mean that it as a subjob has no use.

[ibroyles]

The only problem with Spirit Taker is on high level mobs, it often times won't hit very hard because of low ATK/STR of mages. It's still a WS that is dependent completely on ATK vs. DEF etc calculations, and even on EP mobs the most I've seen a PLD Spirit Taker for is about 200 plus or minus. So, that's a strategy that may work somewhat effectively on lower level mobs, but I can't see it being much use on HNMs and the like. However I can say I haven't "tried or experienced" it yet, so I could still be proven wrong, however unlikely.

[Lythinari]

From VT's and lower, spirit taker hit for 100+
Thats 4 hits with staff, and you can meditate MP.
For HNM's I would agree that it is something that you would not use, considering the higher accuracy that WHM could only dream to reach.

[Kiros]

when i did white mage i notced the biggest difference in MP when i subbed Black mage. but in the long run if you think about it... summoner may get you a few extra MP point but it'd be much more useful to have a few black magic tricks up your sleeve for occasions, i just could never see anyone sacrificing drain II for Shiva ><;;;;;;;

[TheGrandMom]

As for SMN subjob and not being utilized, it is always utilized, just because a smner doesnt use their avatars doesnt mean that it as a subjob has no use.

Ya and my /blm sub is being utilized too even if I don't use the enfeebles, aspir, drain, escape, etc. But if I'm on a hunt with my ls and I don't utilize my /blm sub by using those spells then I'm not fully living up to my potential am I? A whm/smn that doesn't use their summons for the betterment of their pt isn't living up to their potential either. 99% of the whm/smns I've pt'd with fall into that catagory, yet only 25% of the whm/blms do. And I never said the subjob had no use so stop twisting my words. I said that most of the /smn's I've pt'd with did use their subjob. Thats entirely different.

As for whm/sam, no thanks. There isn't enough of a benefit to even use it. Even I would use /smn before /sam.

[Lythinari]

99%?
Refresh, extra clear mind boosts are always on, if anything a SMN sub is on at least 50% off the subjob traits are used.
When you sub summoner it isnt the spells you can cast, its the number traits you gain from subbing it.
While your resting, while your standing, pt moving your using the subjob, just cause I dont use garuda's aerial armor to buff my party every 1min, or carbuncles shining ruby to boost defence doesnt mean It is almost, clos eto 100% not even used.

Saying that, with a BLM sub, of all the things you can get /blm you can use almsot everything blm subjob has to offer, but being resisted is a different story.

After using all your MP, you can top all your MP faster than a blm sub, not only is it the refresh doing it, but also your clear mind boosts.

[TheGrandMom]

99%?
Refresh, extra clear mind boosts are always on, if anything a SMN sub is on at least 50% off the subjob traits are used.
When you sub summoner it isnt the spells you can cast, its the number traits you gain from subbing it.
While your resting, while your standing, pt moving your using the subjob, just cause I dont use garuda's aerial armor to buff my party every 1min, or carbuncles shining ruby to boost defence doesnt mean It is almost, clos eto 100% not even used.



Again your taking what I'm saying out of context. The point I'm making, and you know it, is that the majority of /smn's do not bother using the benefit of their avatars. It's like a /blm not bothering with any of the beneficial spells. If your not using the spells with /blm or the smns with /smn then your not living up to your potential and thus hurting your pt. The majority of whm/smn's I have pt'd with (99%) do not utilize all of the benefits of their sub compared to the 25% of the /blm's.

[Icemage]

One extremely good point is that /smn gives you extra clear mind - gives you more MP while you are resting I believe.

Completely incorrect. /SMN gives no additional Clear Mind over any other subjob, since WHM already has the traits at or above what the /SMN sub gives at every level.


If you wanted to go really radical, you could melee as WHM at a high level with /sam sub and use meditate to refresh your mp =P
quite useful actually.

...

You think SAM is a wierd option to choose for a sub for a mage job?
ever thought of using that sub and putting it into spirit taker or havnt any of you mages leveled staff skill yet?
By far, spirit taker gives more MP over all than what moonlight or starlight would give to the wielder.



From VT's and lower, spirit taker hit for 100+
Thats 4 hits with staff, and you can meditate MP.


Uh.. no. You might get 100 on a good day with a VT enemy or are wearing ATK gears and eating ATK foods. More likely 50-60, assuming you hit at all, unless its something weak to crushing damage like a skeleton.

Meditate gives 60TP when subbed, which means you need 4 hits of a staff every 3 minutes to make use of it. This isn't hard to do, but um... you can't rest or you lose your TP. Not to mention the fact that Spirit Taker can and does miss. Quite a lot. Especially on stuff higher level than you, but even on too weaks it misses depressingly often.

I find it hard to believe your claim that you belong to an HNMLS if you can make a comment like this with a straight face.


Saying that, with a BLM sub, of all the things you can get /blm you can use almsot everything blm subjob has to offer, but being resisted is a different story.


Elemental Seal. What resistance? I can reliably put any monster that can be slept to sleep with Elemental Seal + Sleep in Lumoria when I'm running around zones full of nasty VT+ aggressives. What would I do with a /SMN sub? Sit there and die, that's what. /SMN has its place, but /BLM is good for its own reasons, one of which is being able to force Sleep on something that you just can't handle (and subsequently warp/teleport/escape from).


After using all your MP, you can top all your MP faster than a blm sub, not only is it the refresh doing it, but also your clear mind boosts.


Again, do you really belong to an HNMLS? Let me clue you in:

Summoner get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM30/SMN15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM60/SMN30.

BLM get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM30/BLM15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM60/BLM30.

WHM get:
Clear Mind I at level 20. WHM/anything gets this before either sub will kick in, and so they gain nothing from the trait since it doesn't stack.
Clear Mind II at level 35. WHM/anything again gets this long before either sub will kick in, so again, NO GAIN since it doesn't stack.

{Clue}{Do you need it?}

Honestly, I am so tired of clueless 75s who haven't got the foggiest idea how to play their jobs, or what their subjobs actually do. Kindly stop posting erroneous opinions until you've learned how to research what you post.


Icemage

[TheGrandMom]

Completely incorrect. /SMN gives no additional Clear Mind over any other subjob, since WHM already has the traits at or above what the /SMN sub gives at every level.



Uh.. no. You might get 100 on a good day with a VT enemy or are wearing ATK gears and eating ATK foods. More likely 50-60, assuming you hit at all, unless its something weak to crushing damage like a skeleton.

Meditate gives 60TP when subbed, which means you need 4 hits of a staff every 3 minutes to make use of it. This isn't hard to do, but um... you can't rest or you lose your TP. Not to mention the fact that Spirit Taker can and does miss. Quite a lot. Especially on stuff higher level than you, but even on too weaks it misses depressingly often.

I find it hard to believe your claim that you belong to an HNMLS if you can make a comment like this with a straight face.



Elemental Seal. What resistance? I can reliably put any monster that can be slept to sleep with Elemental Seal + Sleep in Lumoria when I'm running around zones full of nasty VT+ aggressives. What would I do with a /SMN sub? Sit there and die, that's what. /SMN has its place, but /BLM is good for its own reasons, one of which is being able to force Sleep on something that you just can't handle (and subsequently warp/teleport/escape from).



Again, do you really belong to an HNMLS? Let me clue you in:

Summoner get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM30/SMN15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM60/SMN30.

BLM get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM30/BLM15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM60/BLM30.

WHM get:
Clear Mind I at level 20. WHM/anything gets this before either sub will kick in, and so they gain nothing from the trait since it doesn't stack.
Clear Mind II at level 35. WHM/anything again gets this long before either sub will kick in, so again, NO GAIN since it doesn't stack.

{Clue}{Do you need it?}

Honestly, I am so tired of clueless 75s who haven't got the foggiest idea how to play their jobs, or what their subjobs actually do. Kindly stop posting erroneous opinions until you've learned how to research what you post.


Icemage

Thank you ^^

/bow

[Yossar]

Completely incorrect. /SMN gives no additional Clear Mind over any other subjob, since WHM already has the traits at or above what the /SMN sub gives at every level.



Uh.. no. You might get 100 on a good day with a VT enemy or are wearing ATK gears and eating ATK foods. More likely 50-60, assuming you hit at all, unless its something weak to crushing damage like a skeleton.

Meditate gives 60TP when subbed, which means you need 4 hits of a staff every 3 minutes to make use of it. This isn't hard to do, but um... you can't rest or you lose your TP. Not to mention the fact that Spirit Taker can and does miss. Quite a lot. Especially on stuff higher level than you, but even on too weaks it misses depressingly often.

I find it hard to believe your claim that you belong to an HNMLS if you can make a comment like this with a straight face.



Elemental Seal. What resistance? I can reliably put any monster that can be slept to sleep with Elemental Seal + Sleep in Lumoria when I'm running around zones full of nasty VT+ aggressives. What would I do with a /SMN sub? Sit there and die, that's what. /SMN has its place, but /BLM is good for its own reasons, one of which is being able to force Sleep on something that you just can't handle (and subsequently warp/teleport/escape from).



Again, do you really belong to an HNMLS? Let me clue you in:

Summoner get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM30/SMN15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM60/SMN30.

BLM get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM30/BLM15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM60/BLM30.

WHM get:
Clear Mind I at level 20. WHM/anything gets this before either sub will kick in, and so they gain nothing from the trait since it doesn't stack.
Clear Mind II at level 35. WHM/anything again gets this long before either sub will kick in, so again, NO GAIN since it doesn't stack.

{Clue}{Do you need it?}

Honestly, I am so tired of clueless 75s who haven't got the foggiest idea how to play their jobs, or what their subjobs actually do. Kindly stop posting erroneous opinions until you've learned how to research what you post.


Icemage

Can't argue with that. :D

[Kiros]

lol, i think the bottom line there is SMN/WHM makes a better combo than WHM/SMN =DDDD

[Karinya]

Well, SMN/WHM is significantly better at using SMN abilities, and significantly worse at using WHM abilities than WHM/SMN. What did you expect?

[Lythinari]

Fair enough.

[Sin_]

lol, i think the bottom line there is SMN/WHM makes a better combo than WHM/SMN =DDDD

Thats because SMN gets a pretty good MP boost from subbing White Mage not to mention they have the very useful healing abilities. But when you say White Mage you think "a healer" so not too much use for summons since Cabuncles Healing abilities hardly makes up for the MP loss it takes to summon him, when you could just do about as much if not more with a Cure III.

[xiozen]

Sin said: "Thats because SMN gets a pretty good MP boost from subbing White Mage not to mention they have the very useful healing abilities. But when you say White Mage you think "a healer" so not too much use for summons since Cabuncles Healing abilities hardly makes up for the MP loss it takes to summon him, when you could just do about as much if not more with a Cure III."

Good point!^^:cool:

[SharMarali]

OK I don't have the faintest clue why people need to be so confrontational in a DISCUSSION of what SJ works better, etc. You're not helping the original poster by trying to tear each otehr down and prove who knows more about the game than who. SO KNOCK IT OFF. Thank you.

That said. After level 50, BLM and SMN are both perfectly valid choices for WHM SJ. Prior to level 50, I don't feel that there is any benefit whatsoever from subbing SMN, save for a few additional MP. From 40-49, BLM clearly wins because of conserve MP. After 50, I feel it's largely a matter of personal preference when it comes to a normal level up PT. Odds are, you're not going to be utilizing black magic, and you probably won't use aerial armor very much either because it's an ENORMOUS strain on your MP as a level 50 WHM. Plus it doesn't overwrite utsusemi, which, on average, 2 of your PT members will probably have.

I personally use /BLM when I level my WHM. Why? One reason is because I don't want to be asked to use aerial armor all the time when I know exactly what that will do to my MP. Another reason is that, honestly, a lot of the /SMN mages I've PTed with in the past have tended to be um.. Not that bright. I am BY NO MEANS stating that all /SMN mages are morons. I'm just saying that a disproportionate number of the ones I, personally, have PTed with, have really needed to get a clue. Since I have come to associate /SMN with being "iffy" in terms of knowing how to play their job, I prefer not to use it myself. This might not be the world's best reason for choosing one SJ over another, but I'm being honest here and telling you that it's ONE of my reasons. In addiiton, I'm not at the level of having escape yet, but I will be soon and I want to be able to bail my PT out of a bad situation when I reach that point.

There seems to be a perception that at level 50, you should immediately swap to /SMN and no one can really explain why, other than to say "autorefresh." Autorefresh is nice, but so is conserve MP, and I've seen no CLEAR and IRREFUTABLE evidence that /SMN is superior to /BLM.

One last note, RDM/SMN is useful only in rare situations. I've seen a LOT of RDMs using /SMN and it makes me want to laugh and cry all at the same time. WHMs are enhanced only slightly by /BLM, but RDMs are enhanced a TON by /BLM or /WHM.

With /BLM, RDM gets additional BLM only enfeebles such as frost, raspe, choke... And they have the elemental skill to be able to land them. RDM gets chainspell+escape. RDM gets additional INT for landing gravity & blind, plus additional magic atk power for MBs, if the RDM chooses to MB.

With /WHM, RDM gets -na spells and eventually, erase. RDM gets additional MND for landing para & slow, arguably the most important enfeebles. RDM eventually gets teleportation capabilities to the 3 nation craigs. RDM gets divine seal, which is a TREMENDOUS help when used with convert.

In contrast, with /SMN, RDM gets a few additional MP, autorefresh, and the ability to use aerial armor. Frankly, RDM doesn't really need the MP or the autorefresh, because in a NORMAL LEVEL UP PT situation, RDMs won't often run out of MP. I DO speak from experience here, having played RDM to 75 prior to beginning SMN. /SMN jobs don't use aerial armor often, for reasons previously stated in thsi post.

So RDM gains a bit from /SMN, but by and large it's not as helpful to the group or even to themselves as /BLM or /WHM. Personally when I'm whoring my RDM for merit points, I use /WHM unless asked to use something else.

In conclusion... Please think about WHY you want to use job X as a SJ before you use it. Don't just do it because your buddy does it. Think about what you gain from it and what you lose from it. Think for yourself, don't just do it because it's popular.

[Karinya]

As for RDM subs, I static with a WHM and RDM/WHM (it's all he has leveled IIRC), so I normally sub BLM. But in Dynamis, I am often RDM/WHM because curagas and barfira are so crucial there. (Usually I am the only healer in a 5 DD party. In a tank party I would probably sub BLM because the party has one or more full WHMs already.)

RDM/SMN was analyzed in an old post on the RDM forums, which demonstrated that if you cast enough spells, you save more MP from Conserve MP from RDM/BLM to make up for auto-refresh AND the increased MP every convert. WHM don't even convert so it is even more in favor of /BLM for them, unless you actually use Aerial Armor frequently and save more MP in heals than it costs you to use it (you probably will, if you use it at all).

It should be noted that the higher level you get, and therefore the more expensive your spells are, the more MP you save from Conserve MP. Auto Refresh does not scale. Furthermore, Auto Refresh stacks additively with item, RDM or BRD refreshes and clear mind like bonuses (dark staff, errant houppelande, certain foods), while Conserve MP stacks multiplicatively (if each 100 MP of spells you cast only costs you X MP, the effectiveness of other sources of MP is increased by a factor of 100/X.)

On the other hand, the hits absorbed by Aerial Armor become larger and larger while its MP cost remains nearly fixed, so frequent AA use saves you more and more MP at higher levels, provided that the shadows are actually being used, which depends a lot on party composition and monsters being fought.

Regarding the duplication between AA and Utsusemi - Party members subbing NIN can often do more damage with another sub such as WAR, but don't want to give up utsusemi for pulling, etc. AA before each pull could allow them to pull without NIN sub but still be just as safe as if they had it, while still dealing more damage through Attack Bonus, Double Attack and Berserk. However, this may be difficult to do in a pickup party because of the degree of coordination and trust involved (and some RNG or THF in particular may not even have other subjobs leveled because /NIN is so popular).


In summary:
1-39: It doesn't matter that much what you sub as long as it's half your main job level and is a job with MP. If WHM is your first job you won't even have SMN yet for most of this range - don't sweat it.
40-49: /BLM is almost always the most beneficial subjob in this level range.
50-57: Both /BLM and /SMN have their benefits. If you are not going to use Aerial Armor, /BLM is often still better.
58+: As above, but /BLM now also provides escape. This may or may not be important depending on who else is in pt and where you fight.

WHM/BLM is always good. WHM/SMN is sometimes about as good and arguably sometimes better.

[Icemage]

WHM don't even convert so it is even more in favor of /BLM for them, unless you actually use Aerial Armor frequently and save more MP in heals than it costs you to use it (you probably will, if you use it at all).


This is untrue. WHM get less benefit from Conserve MP than RDMs since they can NOT convert, and therefore spend less MP over time. However, a WHM with Refresh or double Ballads running will get more benefit from Conserve MP than a WHM with Auto-Refresh - this is a point that is quite often missed by people who champion WHM/SMN.


It should be noted that the higher level you get, and therefore the more expensive your spells are, the more MP you save from Conserve MP.


This isn't specifically true. Conserve MP kicks in the same amount at any level (unless you're wearing +Conserve MP gear like Water Ring), so whether you cast 10 spells that cost 10 MP each or 1 spell that costs 100 MP, you're going to get the same savings on average.


Auto Refresh does not scale. Furthermore, Auto Refresh stacks additively with item, RDM or BRD refreshes and clear mind like bonuses (dark staff, errant houppelande, certain foods), while Conserve MP stacks multiplicatively (if each 100 MP of spells you cast only costs you X MP, the effectiveness of other sources of MP is increased by a factor of 100/X.)


Yes. See my notes above.


In summary:
1-39: It doesn't matter that much what you sub as long as it's half your main job level and is a job with MP. If WHM is your first job you won't even have SMN yet for most of this range - don't sweat it.
40-49: /BLM is almost always the most beneficial subjob in this level range.
50-57: Both /BLM and /SMN have their benefits. If you are not going to use Aerial Armor, /BLM is often still better.
58+: As above, but /BLM now also provides escape. This may or may not be important depending on who else is in pt and where you fight.

WHM/BLM is always good. WHM/SMN is sometimes about as good and arguably sometimes better.

1-39 subs don't make much impact, though /RDM gives access to Parry without any significant loss of other abilities or spells, and still gives access to Bind, which can be handy. /BLM also gets Elemental Seal in this range.

40-49: /BLM definitely the clear winner here.

50-57: I still think for Taru and well-equipped Hume/Mithra WHMs who can safely sacrifice the extra MP from their subjob, /BRD is superior to all other subs in most cases in the post-50 range for XP parties when played properly.

58+: /BLM gets Escape, which can change the tactical landscape. Otherwise same as 50-57.

I honestly don't like WHM/SMN much, if at all, for XP parties. It's really only useful for XP when there's no source of consistent Refresh available, and how often does that happen in decent parties post-41? Auto-refresh isn't as powerful as people seem to think; just ask anyone who owns a Vermillion Cloak or other item with Auto-refresh.

For end-game activities, you pick your sub based on what you're planning to do.


Icemage

[Karinya]

Hm, I didn't give much thought to WHM/BRD. I've honestly never seen it, even from people that I know are bards leveling up their WHM. In parties with no BRD (which is most of them) it might be useful, *if* keeping up other mages' MP is at least as important as keeping up yours. Otherwise it may be worse than auto-refresh, and it may be the person with the extra MP that should be subbing BRD, while you sub either BLM or SMN. Then you can get ballad + conserve MP and rest while they sing. Assuming, in turn, that that wouldn't gimp their emergency usefulness too much by depriving them of heals.

You shouldn't make BRD your only leveled sub though, as it is much less useful if there is a real BRD in party. BLM doesn't have this problem - it is at least good and useful, no matter who else you are with or what you are fighting.


Conserve MP may be, as you point out, a bit less useful to a WHM than to a RDM (since they don't convert, their average MP spent per 10 minutes is probably less than a RDM's - although on the other hand they get to rest a *lot* more, so maybe it isn't. Does anyone have any actual data on total base MP cost of spells cast by a WHM and RDM over the same time period?)

But Max MP is *much* less useful to a WHM than to a RDM - it's not quite a dead stat, but not far from it, from a perspective of how many MP worth of spells you can cast every 10 minutes in a sustained-killing environment (i.e. the only downtime is that forced by resting). That's why I think /BLM vs /SMN is even more in favor of /BLM for WHMs than it is for RDMs. +50 max MP to a RDM is +50 usable MP every 10 minutes. +50 max MP to a WHM is +50 usable MP once at the start of the party - any other time they still have to take time resting for it. (The same reasoning on the weakness of max MP applies to BLMs, which is why mine is an INT stacker, even though the returns on INT are not fantastic; once you've got all the Magic Attack Bonus and Elemental Skill available at your level, INT seems to do more than anything else you can get.)

10 spells at 10 MP and 1 spell at 100 MP may be the same, but 10 spells at 100 MP are not. That's my point about Conserve MP at higher levels - as your total MP usage per unit time increases, so does your benefit from Conserve MP, but *not* your benefits from Auto Refresh (or Ballad).

[Omniblast]

Uh.. no. You might get 100 on a good day with a VT enemy or are wearing ATK gears and eating ATK foods. More likely 50-60, assuming you hit at all, unless its something weak to crushing damage like a skeleton.


My smn 66 thief sub 33 can get 160-200 mp off decent challenge spiders in the boyada tree.

With WHM sub I only get 70-100.

So for everyone that's bitching and complaining about what sub to use, why don't you just level all subs? Then try for yourself to see what works best and what doesn't?

If your bitching about not wanting to level a job you won't ever use, you'll be eating those words. I have a lot of subs that I like to use, and even more I want to level up with in the future, when I have time. For now I just want to get to 71 to wear my af2 :D

And if your complaining that your wasting time, I suggest you shut off your computer, go outside and live. FFXI is a time sink.

[Icemage]

Hm, I didn't give much thought to WHM/BRD. I've honestly never seen it, even from people that I know are bards leveling up their WHM. In parties with no BRD (which is most of them) it might be useful, *if* keeping up other mages' MP is at least as important as keeping up yours. Otherwise it may be worse than auto-refresh, and it may be the person with the extra MP that should be subbing BRD, while you sub either BLM or SMN. Then you can get ballad + conserve MP and rest while they sing. Assuming, in turn, that that wouldn't gimp their emergency usefulness too much by depriving them of heals.

I'd say less than 5% of my XP parties have had a bard (outside of my days levelling Bard myself, that is), so /BRD is a pretty good catch-all sub at 50+. Generally speaking, almost all decent parties in the 50+ range have a red mage as main source of MP regeneration, and the increase in party potency when you leave Ballad I on your RDM is *very* significant, not to mention the extra MP you're giving any BLM, PLD, or DRK in the party. You can also give melees some extra accuracy with Madrigal, which is more than any other sub can do for you (well, you could sub /RDM for Gravity, but it won't land often).

You shouldn't make BRD your only leveled sub though, as it is much less useful if there is a real BRD in party. BLM doesn't have this problem - it is at least good and useful, no matter who else you are with or what you are fighting.

Yes, and this is why a lot of people use /BLM or /SMN, since they aren't dependent on the party configuration. /BRD is really bad when there's a main job bard, but it really shines when there isn't - but 19 times out of 20, there isn't. You should absolutely have either /SMN or /BLM levelled for those occasions when you DO have a main job Bard around though, even if you plan on using /BRD most of the time.


Conserve MP may be, as you point out, a bit less useful to a WHM than to a RDM (since they don't convert, their average MP spent per 10 minutes is probably less than a RDM's - although on the other hand they get to rest a *lot* more, so maybe it isn't. Does anyone have any actual data on total base MP cost of spells cast by a WHM and RDM over the same time period?)


Having levelled both jobs, I can tell you that I unequivocally spend way more MP on RDM than WHM - if I had to guess at it, it's probably close to 50-75% more MP per 10 minutes. I go through my complete Convert cycle MP religiously every 10 minutes, which adds up to about 1300MP spent per 10 minutes on RDM. I didn't spend anywhere near that on WHM, at any level.


10 spells at 10 MP and 1 spell at 100 MP may be the same, but 10 spells at 100 MP are not. That's my point about Conserve MP at higher levels - as your total MP usage per unit time increases, so does your benefit from Conserve MP, but *not* your benefits from Auto Refresh (or Ballad).

True, and that emphasizes the point about Auto-Refresh being not so cool at higher levels, since it pales in comparison to the MP you're using. It's better than nothing, but 1MP for you per 3 seconds from Auto-Refresh isn't nearly as good as 1MP each for you, the PLD, the DRK, the BLM, and the RDM every 3 seconds from Mage's Ballad, or saving ~1/3 of the cost of a spell like Cure V or Regen III.


Icemage

[SharMarali]

My smn 66 thief sub 33 can get 160-200 mp off decent challenge spiders in the boyada tree.

With WHM sub I only get 70-100.

So for everyone that's bitching and complaining about what sub to use, why don't you just level all subs? Then try for yourself to see what works best and what doesn't?

If your bitching about not wanting to level a job you won't ever use, you'll be eating those words. I have a lot of subs that I like to use, and even more I want to level up with in the future, when I have time. For now I just want to get to 71 to wear my af2 :D

And if your complaining that your wasting time, I suggest you shut off your computer, go outside and live. FFXI is a time sink.

Uhhh.. No one is "bitching and complaining" about what sub to use. Many of us (self included) HAVE leveled all appropriate SJs. I'm an advocate of WHM/BLM, despite the fact that I'm a 75 SMN. We're merely having a discussion about what SJs work in what situations. If you do not want to participate in the discussion, that is fine, but I see no need for you to interject what is clearly a confrontational and inflammatory post just to say that you disagree with us having this discussion in the first place.

Again... We're just conversing here about what works, what doesn't work, and what works BETTER in various situations. Not "bitching and complaining." This forum is designed for the free exchange of ideas and knowledge. If you don't enjoy the free exchange of ideas and knowledge, I question why you elected to register an account here in the first place.