SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

[Tyrien]

I don't feel like bumping any outdated topics, so-----

I was leveling in Boyahda tree yesterday with the MNK,NIN,RNG,WHM,BLM, and me, SMN set up. We were all 51-52 chaining spiders for about 160-230 each. The PT originally had a RDM, but he went AFK, and my other PT had just broke, and they invited me since I was already there, picking me over the 2 RDMs and BLMs that were looking. So yeah, I felt pretty good.

Well, we were doing pretty well.

I did not have to heal, though, because we had a NIN tanking and a RNG sub-tanking, but this is were things seemed to be bad. Because I didn't have to heal, none of my cures were needed. Because no one was taking that much dmg anyway,
I didn't bother too earthen ward or aerial armor. And because the moon was only 25%, Fenrir's debuffs, wouldnt stick, and I decided to just be a DD.

So I would usually summon fenrir, shiva, or ramuh to deal damage, usually doing about 600-800 a fight, under half the damage of the RNG and MNK, sometimes including the 2 BPs on my ~50 sec timer.

This is were i realized what I am. I am a white mage that is allowed to be a summoner every 1 minute. I was pretty much useless that whole pt, with my limitation being that damn 1 minute recast timer.

I would like to propose a petition to Square to A) OR B)

A) Lower the Blood Pact Timer from 1 Minute to Thirty Seconds
(Self Explanatory)

B) Eliminate the All-Avatar 1 Minute Timer, and make each individual avatar's set of Blood Pacts 1 Minute. ( Say I use fenrir's ecliptic growl, i cant use anymore of Fenrir's BPs for 1 Minute, making me have to use another Avatar for another Blood pact. This makes sure that I cannot tank with my avatars, like Square seems to afraid for us to do that they GIMP us.)

*I do not care if these have been proposed already in a topic made last year, It is timer to stop talking and discussing it and try and get Square to implement us. Square has a good track record of listening to the players, but sometimes they can screw up. Hopefully they will ready this topic, as I am going to email it to the Questions/Comments section.*

We dont need anymore avatars until the job itself is enhanced

And this does not only apply to my particular PT set up. That PT just made me realize just how useless SMN CAN be. I know that the Naruto, Allakhazam going, lv30 warriors dont care and may always see us as WHMs, but SMN can be so much more, even now, but Square seems to be too afraid of making SMNs good to make them good.

[RandomKG3]

I think the problem therein is not how to let us do more damage, but rather how to give us a unique role in the party. If you take each job and boil them down to their essential parts, remove their subjob, and take a look at just the pure job itself, you'll find that many jobs still play a specific role within the party structure, their subjob merely enhances their ability to do their job effectively. But that is where summoners come upon a speed bump.

Summoners can only act roughly once every 60 seconds (more or less depending on equipment). We can do all kinds of things, not just deal damage, and our abilities overlap at least two or three different jobs, the difference being however, that we can only do anything besides let our avatar melee once per minute. This basically automatically slots us into a support role. We ourselves often can't directly do anything useful besides tell our avatar to BP once a minute.

The problem comes down to the fact that we don't have what I call a "must have ability". If you look at other job classes, each has a certain ability that no one else can do that everyone wants. For Redmages, there's Refresh and Convert, for bards it's their buff/debuff songs and mage ballads, white mages cure, black mages nuke, etc. etc. Summoners, however, can do a little of everything, but the BP timer prohibits them from doing any of them better than the other jobs whose primary function it is to do those tasks we can also do. Without the white mage sub, we're basically a slot filler. "We've got a spot left. Um, what do we fill it with?" "How about the summoner?"

Make no mistake that SE will *never* let us do something better than another job class whose primary function is to do that task. For example, they will never allow us to nuke better than a black mage, or cure better than a white mage. The solution here, I think is to find a niche for yourself that you're happy with. Find some function within the party structure that makes you happy and feel useful.

For me personally, I often take the role of primary healer. With a white mage subjob, I find that it gives me something to do the other 50 or so seconds that I'm not doing a BP ability. Note that it doesn't prevent me from doing my normal summoner type things. You have more than enough mp to main heal, buff, and Magic Burst skillchains, or whatever you want to do to the mob. You just have to use your mp wisely. I think that's the difference with us. We can't nuke as well as a blm or heal as well as a whm, but we fill a kind of inbetween slot. For example, a normal whitemage could never burst an SC for even a third the damage I can, and a blackmage could never be main healer as well as I could. But by the same token, don't expect to out-nuke a blackmage or out-heal a whitemage.

[Icemage]

Not using Earthen Ward for a ninja tanking spiders is criminal and shows you do not understand your job well enough to discuss methods by which to improve it.

Not being level 70+ with access to all your job's abilities also shows that you do not understand the radical changes in the game balance which would result in a change to the base blood pact timer.

I would recommend that you at least reach level 70 and explore the capabilities and drawbacks of your chosen job before you talk about band-aid fixes which might address one specific level range, but cause major upheaval in the game in its other elements.


Icemage

[grunion]

when i leveled SMN i figured i was just a WHM with blinkga and stoneskinga, at least til 60 when i can magic burst. i did my job and leveled it, but it wasn't fun

however archibaldcrane is a friend of mine and he is leveling SMN, and because his first jobs were melee he knows a lot of WS stuff that i never bothered to learn. so he is constantly opening/closing skillchains and doing more damage than i ever could.

smn is a very complex job and you can have a lot of different play styles and still be a good smn

as far as your original post I was pretty much useless that whole ptwell how do you think a WHM would feel? you could do everything the WHM could do, plus you have autorefresh and extra buffs plus BPs and melee damage. so if they invited a WHM, wouldnt he be even more "worthless"?

[Icemage]

WHM could Erase, which is handy against spiders (particularly for ninjas, who are vulnerable to Sickle Slash).

I've partied with Archibaldcrane on his SMN. He's very, very good, despite his lower MP pool as a Galka (yes, I said Galka).


Icemage

[Kamui]

Myself being a 57SMN, I've never really thought of my job as "useless." With my main being a 60RDM, the jobs have alot in common, actually. I think both fit somewhere in the "support job," not just having one task to fill, but many. In every PT it's different, so I cast alot of different things with my avatars to see what works best for that PT, and while BP cools off I normally just let my avatar help beat up the mob a little.
I'm not sure why so many people think a summoner still fills the role of WHM after Lv40. The fact all SMN go in as /WHM is more for a convenience than a must.
I guess just in my groups I've never even had an opportunity to really think of what I was doing there... I just did whatever I felt was best. But letting people slip into your mind you're just a flashy healer is so wrong... -.-
Besides... What WHM can do this?

http://home.earthlink.net/~icewizardmon/MBcrop.jpg

[Tyrien]

well i think that a few of you could use this: http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm

i think that you have no earthly clue what youre talking about, icemage. there are 69 lvs other than 70-75, so smn becoming a needed job at 70 doesnt matter to a majority of the smn population at their current state. and what exactly is the point of earthen ward when i said that no one was taking much dmg anyway?

i think that some ppl need to wake up. yeah, smn is a very good job with potential, and it is my favorite job, but the 1 minute timer kills us. it doesnt matter what a Summoner thinks their job is capable of when its time to lfg, what matters is what the pt leaders think. they see that there's always a job that can do something better than us.

at its core, smn is a buffing job. sc's are usually reserved for the melees, our mb dmg is mediocre, so we're best off buffing and debuffing. what 2 jobs instantly come to mind when you hear buffing and debuffing? Brd and Rdm, 2 of the rarest jobs in the game. The 2 most wanted jobs in the game, with which smn basicly has to compete with for spots.

now about the pt. no duh it was just a bad experience, but no other job wouldve felt like i did. WE HAD A WHM. READ THE WHOLE POST PLEASE. And no, i cannot do anything a whm can. a whitemage can enfeeble the mob, use more powerful magic buffs (in terms of protect and shell, use their blm sub spells, ect. with smn i can cure, use weaker magic buffs, and maybe 1 or 2 avatar bps, all in 1 fight

and icemage, fyi, i was already a lv43 smn on import when i saw you leveling your first job back in beta, so your elitism isnt really needed.

[Icemage]

Any SMN who doesn't realize that Sickle Slash in Boyahda Tree can and will 1-shot any ninja when their shadows are down is still a newbie. THAT is why you use Earthen Ward, and THAT is why I say you don't understand your job, no matter how long you may have been playing. Not only that, the fact that you've read my comments in this thread and STILL not realized this fact tells me that you don't care enough to study your job and learn how to best make use of the abilities available.

Go on, ask the other SMNs here what they do in such parties. I guarantee they will say the same.

I've taken *4 jobs* through that zone. I've partied with SMN at every level, and I have seen what they can do, especially with the new changes. Good SMN never lack for something to do, be it contributing to damage, or just helping make sure people don't die. The recent updates made lower level BPs like Double Slap do substantial damage, and they can skillchain too. In addition, avatar level II and level IV magic bursts run very close to what a BLM can manage with similar spells. They cost more, it's true, but then, you don't pay the enmity price for it either (and in some cases, when you first get access to tier II and tier IV magic, SMN MB damage is actually higher than BLM MB damage).

SMN take a complete and total about-face at level 65+ (if they have Fenrir) or 70 (if they don't) with the non-skillchaining offensive BPs. Halving the BP timer would turn them into damage machines, capable of dishing out 2000+ damage per minute, with virtually 0 enmity, and upset the already delicate end-game balance. Until you've seen party full of SMN drill a HNM, you have no idea what decreasing the blood pact timer will do.


Icemage

[sudo]

I concur with the end game statement. Smn are quite powerful vs HNM's and such with their lv 70 abilities.

In the last seryiu fight (spelling) the smn was consistantly doing ~700- 900 damage per minute.

In comparison, the blm cast some awesome -ga spells for 800 damage but often had resists that made it go down to pitiful 50-100 damage.

The melees were not even worth comparing against. Mnk was subbed in once every 5-10 min or so and do a 1000 damage chi blast.

Smn are easily #2 or #1 in terms of damage over time already. Add that in with not getting agro and dying or have to log out to reset hate, and you can see vs end game, smn is already quite powerful.

[grunion]

actually we had someone in LS parse our last byakko fight
#1 and #2 were RNG
#3 was smn
everyone else had about 1/2 the damage SMN had, or less. one BLM had every spell resisted (about 50-80 damage each), 400 total damage.

and the RNG have to worry about getting hate, smn dont.

[Omniblast]

Are you not taking into account of -blood pact timer items? sure it only cuts down 15 seconds at most, and if your not doing something then your doing something wrong. Did you participate in any magic bursts? You got that timing down right? Did you cure all their statuses? I'm sure someone had poison on them when they were fighting spiders. At level 55 I was shooting meteorites at spiders every 55 secs and doing 300 damage the majority of the time (fluke 100 damages here and there). Let's not complain to SE about Summoners or else we might end up like Rangers or Dragoons.

Hey you know what the saying is, "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

[Kiyone]

The one thing to consider is that we aren't blm and we aren't whm. There is no reason we should be doing more damage that we do with level 2/4 spells because we aren't blm. There is no reason we should be able to cure 700 hp at once because we aren't whm.

Party leaders should know what they are inviting when they get a summoner, because it's not a whm. We can be healers, but there are things they cannot expect of us, and there are things they should expect of us. What we do varies from party to party, there isn't one set pattern on how to exp.

On the note about bloodpacts, there are already several items that reduce bloodpact recast, some already available at level 50, which is roughly when you have enough abilities to make it worthwhile, though many of them are throw-away abilities. Battles however, rarely last long enough for two bloodpacts, and it costs a considerable amount of mp to bloodpact so often.

Besides that, the summoner of two years ago is supremely different from the summoner of today. When I leveled summoner, there was no such thing as being able to magic burst or skillchain with bloodpacts, the attack bloodpacts pre level 70 were dismal and Fenrir was still just a legend. The way we leveled was so rigid, it was just about being a small time healer with benefits of blink and stoneskin. If you were particularly adventureous, you'd do tail whip for a chance to gravity, and even then the accuracy was not often worth it. Getting party invites was mostly people wanting to oogle your avatars because no one had them back then.

I won't pull the old-timer card, but summoner has come a long way from when I leveled, and apparently when Tyrien first leveled anyways. I would consider leveling smn now a much broader experience than the one I got.

[SharMarali]

Everyone always talks about the problems with the 1 minute blood pact timer. I agree that it's a troublesome system; however, without it, SMN would become overpowered. If I could summon levi, use spinning dive, run back a safe distance, summon garuda, and immediately use predator claw, and keep repeating this for all 6 of the lvl 70 blood pacts (or until I ran out of MP, whichever came first ^^) I'd be insanely powerful as compared to other jobs. We've been given the ability to deal damage without taking hate as well as some powerful buffs and debuffs.

That said, I reiterate that I agree that the blood pact timer is a troublesome system which can cause us to have problems doing much in a party, depending upon the party setup. I've been in situations where I've been asked to keep haste on the NIN, which means that I can do very little else in terms of blood pacts and find myself getting bored to tears just using hastega over and over. I've been in situations where I've had another main healer in the PT and had nothing to do in between blood pacts, and I've been in other situations here and there that have shown serious flaws in the 1 minute blood pact timer system.

I think that if SE was to alter the BP timer system, this would be the best method of alteration:

Group all blood pacts into categories. Damaging, enhancing, enfeebling, healing. Run each of the categories on a one minute timer, but allow them to operate separately from each other. Add in an overall 20 second blood pact timer. In this way, I can summon Titan and use earthen ward, wait 20 seconds, then summon Fenrir and use lunar cry, wait 20 seconds then summon Garuda and use predator claw, wait 20 seconds, then summon Leviathan and use spring water.

I think what SE is trying to prevent is us having the ability to deal out tons of damage OR keep up 6 buffs at the same time. By separating out blood pacts into categories, they could avoid this and we could still feel like summoners rather than white mages who have the ability to do something neat every minute or so.

It's not ever going to happen. But I think it's a better hypothetical solution than lowering the overall blood pact timer to 30 seconds or removing the overall blood pact timer and creating separate timers for each avatar.

[tazirai]

Group all blood pacts into categories. Damaging, enhancing, enfeebling, healing. Run each of the categories on a one minute timer, but allow them to operate separately from each other. Add in an overall 20 second blood pact timer. In this way, I can summon Titan and use earthen ward, wait 20 seconds, then summon Fenrir and use lunar cry, wait 20 seconds then summon Garuda and use predator claw, wait 20 seconds, then summon Leviathan and use spring water.

I think what SE is trying to prevent is us having the ability to deal out tons of damage OR keep up 6 buffs at the same time. By separating out blood pacts into categories, they could avoid this and we could still feel like summoners rather than white mages who have the ability to do something neat every minute or so.

It's not ever going to happen. But I think it's a better hypothetical solution than lowering the overall blood pact timer to 30 seconds or removing the overall blood pact timer and creating separate timers for each avatar.

I agree that BP timer should be lowered to adegree. But remember we are not our BP timers only. We can do a lot more.

As far as what Sharmaralis saying. Can you imagine being able to do unlimited BP's? Check out this Pic from my Summoner LS before a fight.

[Jei]

taz you should show the damage done by 6smn in the BC ^^

[LadyPeorth]

Problem with unlimited blood pacts is the mana usage. You'd be like BLMs spamming Thundaga III.

I think the main way to make SMN more useful is remove the god forsaken -MP per tick. Bloodpacts already cost a major plethra of MP, we're mostly casting otherwise, the Avatars melee attacks (non-bloodpact) aren't exactly ground breaking, and they give no TP to the monster anyway. This way SMN is a little more like a BST, cept they don't hafta worry too much bout their pet's HP (unless soloing). Sure some people will argue that the TP you build up will make your avatar super deadly, but that's only for 1 magic based attack every minute. At best, it'll make your IV spell magic burst really well.

Anyone else think the -MP for elementals is just totally stupid? The spiritual embodiment of an entire element costs less than a small member of it. It's like saying a foot soldier costs more to take care of than a tank.

[Balodoth]

Interesting idea Shar. My question is whether there would also be a timer for using each avatar. i.e. You use a damaging BP; 1 minute countdown starts on all damaging BP's and 20 seconds on the other groups. After 20 seconds you can do an enhancing BP, but not from the same avatar you used for the first BP, there's a 1 minute timer on that one.

Another quick question: While any group is in cooldown, and you use a different group, would that add 20 seconds to whatever is left? Bring it up to 20 if it's below? Not do anything? Just want to see what would be considered fair in such a proposed change.

[tazirai]

taz you should show the damage done by 6smn in the BC ^^

Ill edit thhis post after I find the pic , But 6 SUmmoner versus anything = OMG haha.

I think Sharm(hehe) is onto something, But I suggest somehting esle. Each avatar has a BP timer.
Ifrit Double Punch wait 1 min before he can do anything again.
Summon Shiva Double Slap immediately use it then wait 1 min.

Something like that?
or is there problems with it.

[phaze]

But I suggest somehting esle. Each avatar has a BP timer.
Ifrit Double Punch wait 1 min before he can do anything again.
Summon Shiva Double Slap immediately use it then wait 1 min.

Something like that?
or is there problems with it.
You'd prevent an avatar from using separate BPs, while allowing a loophole for different avatars.

This would allow the Summoner to rotate through the lv70 physical BP's with no penalty. Many people see this as imbalanced, if those BPs are unchanged from their current power/mp cost. Even if the power/cost were adjusted, you're still giving Summoners an 'mp-dump' ability that they currently don't have; this may not be desired by the devs.

The easiest change from the current system would be grouping the BP timers based on type, as SharMarali has outlined above. This would probably need some minor rebalancing, most likely in mp costs.

A more involved change would be to give individual timers for all the BPs, which would require much more rebalancing of strengths and costs for the BP abilities.

I still stand by my earlier comments (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38729), concerning removing MP-Slip and individual timers. The changes last fall concerning Avatar TP and accuracy were nice toys for Summoners aiming for a DD party spot, but I still look for a SMN last when filling out an xp-party's backline. WHM and RDM are better healers, RDM and BRD are better support, and BLM is better damage.

[Macht]

You do realize if SE were to reduce or change the BP that all the abilities under the BP will have to be altered as well. I do enjoy reading people saying how each job has their own little niche and stuff and how they have a function. I love reading these while completly ignoring certain jobs, like for example RNG. Barrage is not unique to us, Sidewinder is not unique to us. To boot on top of that we have how our rng. acc. and rng. att. work been changed. The change makes it more difficult to get good damage but the potential is still there.

SMNs do become quite powerful at 70+ then that power just goes even crazier when they start applying merit points to their stuff. Likely how it is now is still SMN without all the plans in place yet, don't worry though when they get them place you'll have the "Old Timers" screaming nerf because the change reduces their damage and all just to make the ones pre 70 feel more like they might be worth something.

Double Post Edited:
Oh, also as far as the MP slip I am sure SE had ment the SMNs to pull out the Avatar and actually melee with them using the BPs as extra damage like a RNG gets with Barrage and his WSs, or a DRK with his Soul Eater, Last Resort, WSs, and spells. Or any other job.

The only thing was I constantly see is a complaint in this is that Avatars don't hit as desired, I still feel this may be just perspective and in comparison to the rest of the Melees an Avatars melee is actually right in place of were it's needed to be or may need little adjustment.

Other then that most of the time I only see an Avatar being used for it's BP. That's like a RNG complaining that his Sidewinder and Barrage isn't executable every 5 sec. or something. You really should review those abilities the Avatars have, they are well beyond what other people can do. WHM can not stoneskin other people nor can they blink other people, RDM can not en-fire another players weapon, or en-thunder, regardless of it's short time span the more members actually striking that additional damage adds up fast.

Then to boot the attacks the Avatars get with BP are quite big damage numbers, if you want to reduce the BP timer then fine but all of their MP costs or how those abilities work will have to change and I do not mean lower MP and stronger abilities.

Also don't forget the SMN is the only one with a hastega, WHM and RDM do not have this.

[Sepukku]

Icemage....lol....I /love/ how you always tell someone they're wrong in such a matter-of-fact way that you seem to be some demi-god preparing to smite the corrected poster in a rather flame-filled death. Your first post in the thread made you seem like a 50 foot tall man and when you appeared the sky turned dark purple and lightning was everywhere and everything caught on fire....god I need sleep.

But Icemage is right, the proposed solutions in the original post would upset the SMN's balance in the endgame with their level 70 Bloodpacts....SMN, MNK, and WAR (WAR is debateable) are endgame jobs that are less desireable for the first 60-70 levels then become very powerful in the end.

[Caspian]

I dont know that I'd call mnks undesirable in the first 60-70 lvls. If they are, its b/c of the ignorance of other players. I noticed by 40 (hardly pt'd with them before that) that they were doing some big numbers (especially their ws's).
I agree with Macht. I'm not trying to turn this into a rng bitchfest, but we all saw what happens when a job gains huge notariety when it starts making a big difference in the game (especially endgame). The nerfstick cometh.
As a DD I -LOVE- smn's with fenrir for lunar cry (or whatever the one is that raises every stat +10, cant remember the name). The avatars regular dmg is nothing entirely special, but its nothing to scoff at either. The idea of categorizing the BP's is probably the best idea with the fewest unbalancing implications. It seems to give smns the ability to play all the roles they are called on to play at a faster rate. Though, be wary, if SE does decide to change the BP timer, like some have already said, its highly likely that they will change mp cost and effectiveness of those BP's and probably not for the better.

[tazirai]

Okay, Now that Ive read What everyone has to say , including myself hehe. I wish to add, That I never felt "undesirable" in a PT, maybe because its who I PT with primarily. Most o f you know I PT with Japanese 80% of the time. I must say that when You have your avatar out and its hitting for 40-50 Damage then laying out a BP every 50 Seconds for me. Is nothing to Scoff at. Also realise that now that Summoners get TP gain on their Avatars That makes their BP(Specific ones) Evene more powerful and less likely to be resisted.

I do think That maybe the Bloodpact timer should be lowered to perhaps 45 seconds. With -BP timer gear you'd get an average of -14 to 15 off BP timer. So 30 seconds would be Okay.
But as was said there would be a change in BP damage effects.

I for one Like Summoner the way it is now. Most Summoners have no clue how to play Summoner. And most Players think A sumoner without fenrir is gimped, Sadly theres no way to change that. But I try to reach individual Summoners and mentor them.

Theres So much we can do within 1 minute that involves/ doesnt involve our Avatars. Its sick.

From Controlling adds
to being puller/healer
Melee(avatar) MB, Renkei Starting with a Melee not involved in renkei like the paladin.
Taking on adds, Sometimes this means taking one for the PT.

Theres so much that summoner players dont get, it's shameful.
Anyway before I go off on a tangent, take a look again at what you can do with each Avatar and that 1 minute timer, then try to be a little different.

[SlizenDize]

I once had to tank in Bibiki bay because the PLD was AFK.
Got hate through spinning dive and it worked for as long as it was needed.
Not recommending this as something you could do if you don't find a tank but for one fight it could and will work.

[Tempest07]

I would like to quote Jei


SMN post 70 is really powerful. But I really don't mind them, they have to go through 70 levels of hell to get there...

Many of you guys seem to miss the fact that there are many levels before lv 70!
Maybe lower the bp timer, and lower the lv70 attack damage?
or the idea of grouping the bps together.

[Archibaldcrane]

I've partied with Archibaldcrane on his SMN. He's very, very good, despite his lower MP pool as a Galka (yes, I said Galka).
Icemage

Thanks Icemage, I pride myself in my SMN skills.

I would agree that there are levels where smn is not particularly useful, mainly as you approach 50. However, once you get Double Slap, your path is pretty much set for you from there on. Especially if you have a ninja, BE AGGRESSIVE in being involved with the skillchains! Double Slap can deal consistent Distortion-closing damage, better than most jobs besides a sata Viper Bite. And it's basically ready when you need it - especially with a ninja, who is normally otherwise solo-WSing. That's fun til 54, then Meteorite at 55 is a godsend. A free avatar, even without Penance Robe or HQ light staff, bombing IT crabs for 300+ regular or 400+MB with fusion every minute? Put that with a bard and you are never wanting for MP, can main heal and dish 1k damage per fight. Then at 60 you get lvl4 spells stronger than all but a blm's highest -ga or ancient to MB with, and fenrir's final BP at 65.

Yes, with a whm in a party, smn is still kinda superflous til 65 at least....but I haven't seen much in the way of whm+smn parties recently (i'm 55). Be flexible, yes, but be knowledgeable and aggressive to use all your varied abilities to make the party good. You're only a gimpy whm if you allow yourself to be. Have fun!

[Tyrien]

Vinfari- DRK, Evergence-RDM, Smile-BLM, Ditt-NIN, Hellslayer-WHM,Tyrien-SMN

Guess when I hit lv 60


0 - The Robber Crab
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Vinfari 285 39.64 285 0 0 100
Evergence 28 3.89 28 0 0 25
Ditt 61 8.48 61 0 0 75
Smile 345 47.98 0 345 0 0.00
Totals 719 100 374 345 0 66.67

1 - The Goblin Mercenary
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Hellslayer 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Ditt 899 27.4 502 110 275 75.86
Vinfari 1504 45.84 625 0 871 80
Smile 340 10.36 0 340 0 0.00
Shiva 497 15.15 282 0 215 83.33
SC: Fragmentation 41 1.25 0 0 41 0.00
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Evergence 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Totals 3281 100 1409 450 1402 78.85

2 - The Goblin Mercenary
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Ditt 542 23.44 492 24 26 61.22
Vinfari 1071 46.32 673 16 382 64.71
Smile 183 7.92 0 183 0 0.00
Evergence 6 0.26 0 6 0 0.00
Garuda 495 21.41 88 0 407 100
SC: Fragmentation 15 0.65 0 0 15 0.00
Hellslayer 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Totals 2312 100 1253 229 830 64.79

3 - The Goblin Leech
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Ditt 366 38.53 359 0 0 100
Vinfari 495 52.11 495 0 0 100
Evergence 89 9.37 82 0 0 100
Totals 950 100 936 0 0 100

4 - The Goblin Shepherd
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Ditt 658 18.44 514 46 94 70
Evergence 93 2.61 69 7 0 20.83
Smile 76 2.13 0 76 0 0
Shiva 450 12.61 58 0 392 60
Vinfari 1754 49.15 600 0 1154 100
Hellslayer 6 0.17 0 6 0 0.00
Titan 504 14.12 86 0 418 100
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
SC: Fragmentation 28 0.78 0 0 28 0.00
Totals 3569 100 1327 135 2086 58.33

5 - The Goblin Leech
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Hellslayer 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vinfari 877 100 877 0 0 100
Ditt 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Evergence 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Totals 877 100 877 0 0 85.71

6 - The Goblin Shepherd
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Hellslayer 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Ditt 479 15.57 472 0 0 66.67
Evergence 314 10.2 251 0 0 52.94
Smile 1049 34.09 0 1049 0 0.00
Vinfari 1235 40.14 590 0 645 100
Totals 3077 100 1313 1049 645 65.31

7 - The Robber Crab
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Ditt 557 15.65 439 104 14 60.53
Evergence 465 13.06 218 52 121 47.83
Vinfari 1033 29.02 792 0 241 75
Ramuh 477 13.4 70 0 407 57.14
Smile 552 15.51 17 535 0 45.45
Shiva 472 13.26 65 0 407 66.67
SC: Fragmentation 4 0.11 0 0 4 0.00
Totals 3560 100 1601 691 1194 59.05

8 - The Robber Crab
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Hellslayer 2 0.05 0 2 0 0.00
Ditt 732 19.08 709 0 0 67.92
Ramuh 1616 42.12 290 0 1326 78.95
Evergence 164 4.27 117 7 0 37.04
Smile 1003 26.14 5 984 0 14.29
Vinfari 311 8.11 311 0 0 77.78
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
The Robber Crab 9 0.23 0 0 0 0.00
Totals 3837 100 1432 993 1326 60

[Icemage]

I'm failing to see the point. Ok, so I'm guessing that you burned Astral Flow and opened up some Judgment Bolts somewhere around the last battle. This pertains to your original topic of SMNs needing "fixing", let alone in the manner you suggested, in what way?

If you hit level 60 before the last battle, then the numbers sure don't show it, since you ought to have been able to do much better than 400-odd damage on a IV magic burst. More to the point, the only time you had a skillchain that matched your avatar for magic bursting would be in battle 2, Garuda on Fragmentation, and in battle 7. Ramuh on Fragmentation.


Icemage

[Tyrien]

I'm failing to see the point. Ok, so I'm guessing that you burned Astral Flow and opened up some Judgment Bolts somewhere around the last battle. This pertains to your original topic of SMNs needing "fixing", let alone in the manner you suggested, in what way?

If you hit level 60 before the last battle, then the numbers sure don't show it, since you ought to have been able to do much better than 400-odd damage on a IV magic burst. More to the point, the only time you had a skillchain that matched your avatar for magic bursting would be in battle 2, Garuda on Fragmentation, and in battle 7. Ramuh on Fragmentation.


Icemage

what an honor to have another critique by icemage, if only he were right about half the stuff he was talking about :/

[Icemage]

what an honor to have another critique by icemage, if only he were right about half the stuff he was talking about :/

I'm glad to see that your inability to stick to the topic of discussion hasn't changed. Considering you started this thread, that's particularly amusing. And I'm sure the other readers are equally perplexed as to what you were trying to prove with those numbers, other than perhaps your ability to operate a parser.


Icemage

[Archibaldcrane]

Yeah, I think I'm missing your point. If your point is that SMN doesn't have all that much to do with a whm in the party, well, you're right. SMN+WHM is like PLD+NIN...overlapping of duties that either could perform. If your argument is that SMN is gimped and/or underpowered/or and worthless at 55-60...I...have to think you're doing something wrong with it. I'm confused by the parses - if your party is consistently doing Fragmentation, then why not MB with either Garuda or Ramuh every time? I'm seeing alot of damage coming from other avatars...not sure why. With dual-ninja tanks you couldn't have...any healing to do at all really, so hitting your MBs with the proper avatar should be pretty much the #1 goal...hell, with dual ninja tanks on crabs I can't even see value in Earthen Ward.

[Icemage]

With a strange party setup like NIN NIN RDM BLM SMN DRK I'd have gone for 2x Distortion bursts. Blade : Chi to Blade : Retsu for Distortion as well as Vorpal Scythe to Double Slap for Distortion, or perhaps alternatively Barracuda Dive to Guillotine for Induration. Or even Blade: Chi > Double Slap for Distortion and Blade: Teki > Guillotine for Induration, though I think that makes for slower skillchain damage since ninjas usually have a hard time keeping up with main DDs on TP.

Considering the pitiful skillchain damage that was being inflicted I can only imagine that they were using Guillotine to Blade : Teki for Fragmentation (ew?).


Icemage

[Tyrien]

I'm glad to see that your inability to stick to the topic of discussion hasn't changed. Considering you started this thread, that's particularly amusing. And I'm sure the other readers are equally perplexed as to what you were trying to prove with those numbers, other than perhaps your ability to operate a parser.


Icemage

keep trying, but if youd pay attention, or actually read the post, you could see that it has alot to do with the topic. i shouldnt have to spell it out to you. thanks.

id also like to point out that my "inability to stick to the topic" actually lies in you, and can be easily seen in your first, off-topic post.

Double Post Edited:
Yeah, I think I'm missing your point. If your point is that SMN doesn't have all that much to do with a whm in the party, well, you're right. SMN+WHM is like PLD+NIN...overlapping of duties that either could perform. If your argument is that SMN is gimped and/or underpowered/or and worthless at 55-60...I...have to think you're doing something wrong with it. I'm confused by the parses - if your party is consistently doing Fragmentation, then why not MB with either Garuda or Ramuh every time? I'm seeing alot of damage coming from other avatars...not sure why. With dual-ninja tanks you couldn't have...any healing to do at all really, so hitting your MBs with the proper avatar should be pretty much the #1 goal...hell, with dual ninja tanks on crabs I can't even see value in Earthen Ward.

that was a typo, other nin was a WHM

and unlike icemage, you're actually kinda close

[poweryoga]

what an honor to have another critique by icemage, if only he were right about half the stuff he was talking about :/

If you weren't so thick headed to listen to him, maybe you'd understand how to not be the shame of all summoners.

Almost all of the stuff you want to be improved on for summoners are stupid and would end up overpowering the class dramatically. You don't know how to play the job, and you just want summoners to do on par damage with warriors and rangers, who are the top damage dealers. That's not what the job is for, they're support, not DD except for a few special cases in endgame.

The only change I'd make to the summoner class is group support abilities into one bloodpact, and damage bloodpacts into another. That way you're not a damage dealing machine, but you can still support and skill chain. the 6 second summon timer + avatar doing their thing is enough to offset having 2 kinds of pacts to cast. There is already enough -BP timer on existing equipment that 45 seconds isn't really a long wait. I'm sure you'll find something to do in the mean time....

[Tyrien]

If you weren't so thick headed to listen to him, maybe you'd understand how to not be the shame of all summoners.

Almost all of the stuff you want to be improved on for summoners are stupid and would end up overpowering the class dramatically. You don't know how to play the job, and you just want summoners to do on par damage with warriors and rangers, who are the top damage dealers. That's not what the job is for, they're support, not DD except for a few special cases in endgame.

The only change I'd make to the summoner class is group support abilities into one bloodpact, and damage bloodpacts into another. That way you're not a damage dealing machine, but you can still support and skill chain. the 6 second summon timer + avatar doing their thing is enough to offset having 2 kinds of pacts to cast. There is already enough -BP timer on existing equipment that 45 seconds isn't really a long wait. I'm sure you'll find something to do in the mean time....

for the love of god, please read the whole thread, or atleast play the game, before posting

[poweryoga]

for the love of god, please read the whole thread, or atleast play the game, before posting

I have a 73 smn that I'm too lazy to lvl to 75, so drink your cup of STFU please. ^^

I read the whole thread, and came to the conclusion you have no idea how to play the summoner class, so kindly take your own advice, since you have apparently done neither.

Why are you partying with whms before 70 anyways? So you can be an exp leech?

[Tyrien]

I have a 73 smn that I'm too lazy to lvl to 75, so drink your cup of STFU please. ^^

sorry, your post mislead me

with your last question, i dont think that you have read the whole thing :(

you're welcomed to try again :)

and im thickheaded? some of you people want to do nothing but critique me, and call me stupid because of my opinions on smn, when you obviously dont understand anything in the thread.

i would suggest you either stop posting your bs, or discuss:
1. Your ideas on how to improve smn Or
2. Your experiences through the levels,

instead of causing a flame war because you're too ignorant to discuss and flaming is all you can do.

[Kaylik]

sweet i like it

[Tyrien]

To try to revive the real topic:
I was thinking yesterday, the typical pt set up is so:

Tank
DD
DD/backup voke/hate maintanence
dd mage
main healer
refresher/support

summoner fits into 3 categories: main healer, dd mage(20-30, then again at 60+[depending on how long the fights are, off course]), and dd if you are 70+

square obviously doesnt want us to be big time dds before 70, therefore we usually heal, and once in a while we get invited to buff and back up heal.

we are not desired in pts before 70. that is the bottom line. the typical player wants a NIN or PLD to tank, a SAM/MNK/THF/DRG/DRK/WAR to DD or control hate, a black mage to deal magic dmg, a rdm or brd (both extremely rare) to refresh and buff, and a white mage to haste, heal, and buff.

Sure we can heal, but thats are sub-job, and usually doesnt involve summoning avatar outside of spring water.

so what is left that square could possible want smn to do?

refresh

SMN is mainly a buffing job, if you consider the main job alone, and not our support job.

We have hastega, ecliptic growl, ecliptic howl, earthen ward, and aerial armor that are the most useful. but these are not as desired as a rdm's or a brd's spells, the 2 other buffing jobs.

again, what are we missing that the other 2 have? refresh

brd, rdms, and smns are rare as it is. there are usually long waits in pts to find a refresher, so why not help everyone out at the same time by giving smn a refreshga bp? it could be maybe Ecliptic Cry [Fenrir}, giving pt members in aoe 2 mp every 2 seconds. it would be hard to get by having it on fenrir, and it could have a minimum level of 50 or 55, when smn invites decline drasticly.

before making smart ass comments, please read and consider the post. thanks.

[Jokerboy1]

WHOOOOOOO!!! GO TYRIEN!!!

well im not gonna put my 2 cents in because im only a lvl 20 smn. but hmm i like your idea tyrien. yet.. im not high enough lvl to really understand the outcome of it.

but why is everyone in here fighting? tyrien is just posting his opinion u dont need to go at ihs throat because of it.

[tazirai]

but why is everyone in here fighting? tyrien is just posting his opinion u dont need to go at ihs throat because of it.

People tend to argue over point of contention to 1 up each other , even if it means losing the point of what they were arguing over anyway. Thats how wars start, well that and money, and women, and power, and greed, and..I'll stop now ^^.

Seriously Ive Partied with whitemage as a Summoner and never felt the leeching thing, Because I performed other duties. about the idea of Summoner sucking before 70 I dont agree.
About Summoners never being wanted in a PT I dont agree, that may be so NA side, but the only tiem I ever felt a lack of PT crunch is when fenrir came out and he was the new thing. So i made my own.

ive already stated what a Summoner can do beside and along with healing. But its up to each Summoner to find their own thing.

They can go Icemages way
Tyriens way
Cookie way
their own

I dont have a way.. I just offer unbiased ideas for a job im highly biased for ^^

Now back on topic please ^^ keep the flames low.

[Chio]

I'll throw in a couple point here, since I've been leveling summoner as of late. For the most part I think I've been opening the eyes of most players given how I've been playing the job.

I first throw the idea of the ideal party away. Lately on Ragnarok there are so many high level people it's hard to find low level parties these days. 1-20 used to suck and now it's 1-30ish thats a pain.

So ideal parties are hard to come by...given that:

There are 3 damage dealers in the front line. Two do the main skill chain and one shoots off their WS at random times.

I join the odd man for another skill chain. It helps keep that BLM doing what he's best at, lots of damage. My main job is BLM and if I had that opportunity to MB left and right I would be extremely happy.

To improve summoner? I think what would make me happy, is to have some little timer that tells me when the blood pact timer runs down to zero. Sure I can put a /wait command in the macro, but i'm shooting off other macros, and that ends up screwing up the /wait command. Just a minor annoyance if anything.

The only other change I'd like to see is, not only skill ups when we throw out a summons, but perhaps a skill up opportunity when we use a BP. <-- Thoughs on this one? (if this has been discussed before my apologies)

I'm only 34 at the moment, and I'm enjoying the current summoner set up. In the parties up until now, the white mage has had less to do because of the extra skill chain + MB. Heck the WM is even casting in for the MB as well.

As for refresh ability of reds and bards, it has not come into play all that much right now. I sometimes leave a summons out to attack and build up TP for the skill chain thats about to come to pump up the damage. I'll throw out a cure while that's happening, and I still have hoards of MP left (go tarus). I have plenty of MP healing time available. I feel as long as my HP is up, I can back up heal in a pinch. Reds and Bards great if you got them.

A refresh-ga, I would speculate, would cost far too much MP, and last for a short time like all the other buffs summons have. Summoner spends 100+MP so everyone else can get back 50or so. Maybe it works out for the summoner who has auto-refresh anyway, who knows.

[Icemage]

To improve summoner? I think what would make me happy, is to have some little timer that tells me when the blood pact timer runs down to zero. Sure I can put a /wait command in the macro, but i'm shooting off other macros, and that ends up screwing up the /wait command. Just a minor annoyance if anything.

The only other change I'd like to see is, not only skill ups when we throw out a summons, but perhaps a skill up opportunity when we use a BP. <-- Thoughs on this one? (if this has been discussed before my apologies)


Both of these items are excellent suggestions. Doesn't change the fundamentals of the job, but the first resolves some of the ambiguity, and the second addresses the problem of levelling summoning magic (which, behind Fishing and Guard, is probably the third hardest skill to gain points for in all of FFXI).


Icemage

[Tempest07]

Both of these items are excellent suggestions. Doesn't change the fundamentals of the job, but the first resolves some of the ambiguity, and the second addresses the problem of levelling summoning magic (which, behind Fishing and Guard, is probably the third hardest skill to gain points for in all of FFXI).


Icemage

yeah theyre good suggestions, but not enough. Yes smn is a good job, but we're not really wanted. Its more like "Look a smn! Hm....we cant find a <insert job> so i guess we can get one."

[Icemage]

yeah theyre good suggestions, but not enough. Yes smn is a good job, but we're not really wanted. Its more like "Look a smn! Hm....we cant find a <insert job> so i guess we can get one."

That's a flaw amongst some players, not a flaw of the job.

I routinely look specifically for summoners when party dynamics call for it. This is especially true when facing enemies with AoE, SMN are often preferable to the safety of WHM, but I've also gotten into the habit of asking SMNs to go into offense mode in my parties. I'm personally well-versed at keeping people alive with minimal assistance, and I certainly think most mid-level SMN would prefer to be dishing out damage than using Earthen Ward or Aerial Armor, and insofar as I can, I try to cater to that preference whenever possible.


Icemage

[Chio]

That's a flaw amongst some players, not a flaw of the job.

Yeah I'm willing to agree with that. Probably depends on what level-belt it is. Between 1-20 there were times I cringed when I saw and had to use a galka white mage but we made do.



I routinely look specifically for summoners when party dynamics call for it. This is especially true when facing enemies with AoE, SMN are often preferable to the safety of WHM, but I've also gotten into the habit of asking SMNs to go into offense mode in my parties. I'm personally well-versed at keeping people alive with minimal assistance, and I certainly think most mid-level SMN would prefer to be dishing out damage than using Earthen Ward or Aerial Armor, and insofar as I can, I try to cater to that preference whenever possible.



The parties I've been in thus far (and made myself for that matter) haven't been particular on what they want me to do. I party with Japanese most of the time though, don't know if that changes much however. I think as long as I sub whm there's a bit of relief that's felt I suppose. I don't have any levels in Red at the moment, but for a regular leveling party BLM seems to be out of the question.

It's because no one has really said anything other-wise, I'll keep doing what I'm doing. When that 3rd DD shoots off his WS and I skill chain it with one of the summons everyone goes w00t. Sure it's not a SATA viper bite or what have you but hey, thats a little more damage done and a little less healing that has to take place.

If everyone thinks "oh hey its a summoner and there's nothing else available" then perhaps the summoner should play the game differently and change that way of thinking.

[tazirai]

If everyone thinks "oh hey its a summoner and there's nothing else available" then perhaps the summoner should play the game differently and change that way of thinking.

/clap /cheer /bow ^^

[Archibaldcrane]

Look, honestly in most situations I've found in my 56 levels of summoner...smn is preferable to whm. *gasp* *panic* Look. Whms keep people alive. That is their job. They are able to stick para and slow and dia. Whatever. They have Haste - which IMO is the one thing that can make whm better than smn up to 56. If as main-heal smn, people are not dying in your party, then you are doing the whm's job. Anything else you do, be it stoneskinga, or tail whip or double slap or meteorite to close SCs or MB, is something that a whm -isn't- doing. You are contributing to faster Exp gain with faster kills and less downtime, which should be the goal of every member of the party.

I know that as you level, this is not always true, mainly due to one reason - stona.

Once you start fighting Coeurls and Cocatrices for XP (as you do for a large part of the early-mid 60's and early-70's) Stona is very important - essential even, and makes whm a necessity. When I get to that point I understand that my role in the party will change - perhaps limiting the zones I can xp in. However, up until you hit Coerls at 62ish, I find there are very few situations where whm>smn, and therefore I don't find smn to be "gimped" at all.

They "un-broke" this job a long time ago...catch up and play well, reap the benefits.

[Tempest07]

If everyone thinks "oh hey its a summoner and there's nothing else available" then perhaps the summoner should play the game differently and change that way of thinking.

welcome to the real world

no matter how good of a summoner you are, no matter how good the summoner job is right now, exp group leaders just dont care for us too much, which is why i usually just make my own pts. i dont have a problem with the smn job. i know what i am suppost to do. its what other people (the people that are inviting us) think that is unnerving.

i think that the main point of the topic is how to make summoner more WANTED as a main job, not neccessarily to improve it. Yes, we can contribute by adding an extra sc, helping heal, negating damage, upping everyone's stats, but people always see another job and bypass the smn. It has nothing to do with the smn's skill. it has to do with what the leader thinks. this seems to be the exact same situation that red mage was in before refresh and dispell were added. they were having an identity crisis, not knowing what they were. And, again, it doesnt matter what we know we are when other people are putting the groups together.

you cant throw out the ideal party set up. That is what ppl look to when forming pts.

[SlizenDize]

As with all jobs, if one player plays a job in a bad way then everyone in that party will think everyone with that job sucks. The best way for me to get pts at all is to get somewhat a reputation of being a good Summoner because some people prefer Summoners from White Mages even tho they might not be as near as 50% they are still many.

I still think the job itself needs a push tough...
I mean people say summoners are good because they can Stoneskin and Blink and Hastega and Enthudner and Dispel and Stat buff and so on... It's a LIE..

We can give Stoneskin OR Blink OR Hastega OR Enthunder OR Dispel... See my point?
Then all of a sudden it doesn't get so good. Sure we can heal meanwhile but seriously Cure V heal more than Cure III no argue on that one.

I like the idea about making 2 BP times and cut mp cost for avatars (Even tho it means I have to get rid of lots of elemental staffs and it would render Astral Signa rather useless :))
I think we all can agree about the reasons why Summoners do Not melee with avatars are 1. Mp slip 2. You cannot rest.
If SE make changes to atleast one of these then we would be able to melee in a much more efficient way. it woulden't add much to dmg maybe 200 each fight but it would certainly add a lot to the job "Summoner".

[lionx]

As a WHM i partied with a few varying SMNers. It really depends on the person, some people only want to be a Cure-tank and then buff every now and then..which is totally USELESS when i am there partying with them. Its my job as WHM to heal, but even when i sugguest trying out SC or MB they refuse. Lame. However on the other hand there are SMNs that Magic Burst consistantly with Tier II and IV magic, and when fighting Torama in LoO, i was very glad to have one in which when i would run out of MP(too much spammage of Blaster and Chaotic Eye along with PLD tank) the SMN would take over and let me heal to continue the chain as WELL as MBing the entire way. That is a great SMN and i feel that SMN themselves are very versitile, and can fill many roles as long as they are smart and willing to(which is sad because not many do that, they are either cure tank or the MB, never both and not adaptive).

With that said i do have trouble trying to find that niche for SMN. With WHM being best at healing, BLM best at nuking, RDM and BRD good at support/Refresh, SMN really does seem like the oddball one out. Sure SMN have really good buffs, but even then, it really feels that its not as impactful as say BRD buffs or RDM debuffs. I really sugguest that they have seperate BP timers for Enhancing, Attacking, and Healing/Debuff because that will make them much more versitile and desirable. However i still have a problem in which is that..what does a SMN have, that other classes dont have that impact the entire PT so much to say "Omg theres a SMN lets invite him/her!"? And not as the filler role.

Refresh is a possible way of solving things and of course..the most obvious due to the lack of BRDs and the RDM monopoly, however there could be more.

[Chio]

welcome to the real world

no matter how good of a summoner you are, no matter how good the summoner job is right now, exp group leaders just dont care for us too much, which is why i usually just make my own pts. i dont have a problem with the smn job. i know what i am suppost to do. its what other people (the people that are inviting us) think that is unnerving.



Have you had experience were someone just simply said "just cure" or "do A and B" and nothing more to screw us up. Probably not a party I'd want to be in. I've only had one experience where someone kicked me out for not having SleepGa2 when I was playing as a BM :/



i think that the main point of the topic is how to make summoner more WANTED as a main job, not neccessarily to improve it. Yes, we can contribute by adding an extra sc, helping heal, negating damage, upping everyone's stats, but people always see another job and bypass the smn. It has nothing to do with the smn's skill. it has to do with what the leader thinks. this seems to be the exact same situation that red mage was in before refresh and dispell were added. they were having an identity crisis, not knowing what they were. And, again, it doesnt matter what we know we are when other people are putting the groups together.

you cant throw out the ideal party set up. That is what ppl look to when forming pts.

People don't jump at us like a Nin/War I suppose. But are summoners that "not wanted"? The red mage got a little out of hand, and is probably one of the most powerful classes in the game thanks to refresh, HP>MP, etc... sickening really. I watched a 75Red take out ifrit while i just healed when everyone else died in a firey blaze.

Back to summoners... how about this idea... some where around 55-60 how about a 2mp/3sec regen tick.

Make Carby not only free but get +1 mp back while he's out. XD

[SlizenDize]

Refresh is a possible way of solving things and of course..the most obvious due to the lack of BRDs and the RDM monopoly, however there could be more.
Sorry but whatever they do I seriously hope they never give us refresh ><
Auto-refresh is good but if we get refreshga as a BP then all our other abilities will become utterly meaningless and you might just replace us with a MP fountain.
I can accept the refreshga on one condition.
That it stays for atleast 10mins before wearing. If they would add 2min refreshes to SMN then I would honestly quit this game.

they are either cure tank or the MB, never both and not adaptive
lol I don't want to feel like i'm picking on you or something (Because i'm not) but if you find a summoner who play DD and refuse to heal if they see someone got low hp they should get bitchslapped all the way back to pong. Since I am a Summoner myself I do not PT much with other Summoners but I have noticed that many BLMs do heal even though they are acting as DD and I try to do the same when I am playing DD. As a matter of fact I am so used to playing Healer that sometimes I forget that I was supposed to be the DD lol ^^

Correct me if I'm wrong but from my point of view it seems like you had a bad luck with the Summoners you have met ^^

[lionx]

Refresh is but one possible way, there might be others that i might have not considered but from a mage's point of view, Refresh is pretty useful and a real draw to be invited. I do hope its not a crappy 2minute refresh too x_x that would be lame as hell if they do impliment it. But the problem is, what could there be that makes SMN SO desirable to be invited thats not a filler role? I am having trouble with that =/

About my experiences with SMNers i have had a wide variety i partied with. By no means however that those i partied with describe the entire SMN community because as i said, there ARE amazing SMNers that worked well when i was WHM, BLM, and even WAR. The good ones are amazingly adaptive and pushed their blood pacts farther than the majority of SMNs i met which are very one track minded.

Its like the n00b RDM, they insist on meleeing or insist not on main healing even when they can and should play their roles as flexible as possible. SMN(majoirty of those i met) tend to fall into the same one track mind and that their way of playing SMN is the only way possible. =/ You are correct the majority of my SMN party experiences were them being, less than great.

But by no means am i saying they suck, and just for you the next time i pt with a SMN that doesnt do his or her job well even with some sugguestions, i will slap them for ya. xD

[tazirai]

Do people really think a Summoner is just a Bloodpact per min and healer?
Ive described various things a Summoner can do to aid a PT but seems no one but me and the few Summoners Ive "trained" does them.

Do people just not get it?

[SlizenDize]

Do people really think a Summoner is just a Bloodpact per min and healer?
Ive described various things a Summoner can do to aid a PT but seems no one but me and the few Summoners Ive "trained" does them.

Do people just not get it?

Just a question.
How many of those things you can do between BPs then are based on sub jobs?

[tazirai]

Heal/buff/status ... 1? If you have whm SJ
and about maybe 5-6 others things that you can do. Also even with your sj you can do them.
Reason I say one is you generally heal with whm and buff at the begginning so it doesnt count since you can do that with rdm Sj.
With Status that can be done with an avatar, during combat or after.

/bard if none available can help MP, specially if theres a BLM or two in the PT , Even if theres a WHM in the PT it can help, Ive done this. You can help attackers and mages. It wont hurt a mons very much , strictly for PT member buffs.

/rdm if you are fighting def heavy monsters can remove their buffs with dispel it sticks alot and you can still cure . Leviathan can remove status. also can help if theres a whm or blm in the PT with their MB and whm using his better powers to fully heal/status remove.

/blm very useful in BCNM My Summoner LS uses only BLM SJ when we do BCNM for escapes/warps and aspir and seal+binding. and eve n the odd MB, I have a video of this ^^ if you want to see it .


/whm the overall favorite ,

[Chio]

Just a question.
How many of those things you can do between BPs then are based on sub jobs?

Oh come now. A statement like this applies to every other job out there.

We could fight the enemy, we could heal our own MP, we could stay out of the way, we could go use our summons to get the next mob to fight, we could simply fight the next mob if its not so tough, we could throw out our summons to build up TP for the coming Magic burst (higher TP=more damage).

Based on sub jobs? Sub white and... we heal. Debuff? No those dont stick. Cure ailments? Chances are the Red or White got to them. So yeah... based on our sub... we heal.

Based on my list.... thats one thing we can do based on our sub.

Summoners are -not just- gimped cure tanks.

After this last mission I'm starting to see a Summoner's nitch more and more. BCs, Mob control, last big blast of damage.... you get 3 summoners lined up doing astral flow, and that BC monster is gonna die.

SE is not going to give summoners the ability to do more damage. Because frankly in numbers they destroy things when the time comes. Why are people failing to see this point? There's more to this game than just getting to 75. ESPECIALLY with those CoP missions.

[Jokerboy1]

what if they let us rest when we had our avatar out or something? ehh?

or is that a bad idea?

Double Post Edited:


/blm very useful in BCNM My Summoner LS uses only BLM SJ when we do BCNM for escapes/warps and aspir and seal+binding. and eve n the odd MB, I have a video of this ^^ if you want to see it ,

i wanna see this video plz ^_^

[Icemage]

what if they let us rest when we had our avatar out or something? ehh?

or is that a bad idea?



It defeats the purpose of MP slip damage if you could rest to counteract the cost.

---

SMN are quite useful in many circumstances. I found a new use for SMN yesterday in an XP party in Gustav Tunnel at level 59. When we'd pull a BST-type Goblin, the SMN would summon Carbuncle and kill the Goblin's Leech with Meteorite, leaving the rest of the PT able to deal with the main enemy without having it interrupt our XP chain.


Icemage

[kuu]

A lot of Smns are handly-capped due to being invited underleveled.

If you have a lvl 50pt and your smn is 47, The offensive bp's are going to seriously get shafted. Just like you don't get a melee 3 levels under, same with SMN.

I heard "I saw smn IV magic burst the other day, they suck not even close to blm damage and always resisted" Well yea a blm has magic attkIII and if underlevel doesn't help accuracy, with 3 levels behind, even a blm will get resisted MB.

I always recomend pts lvls being close even if jobs don't fit so well, because the level difference can hurt more then anything at times.

If I as a smn, get brought in and I see everything is IT+++ from my point of view...well that pretty much kills most of my arsenal of DD, and even fenrir's lunar cry...so in that case, it's pretty much a cure/buff whore.

Though really no different elsewhere, if you ask why your blm can't get damage in or your rdm can't debuff...well obviously, "You brought me in 3 levels under, my hands are tied."

[Icemage]

Kuu has a definite point. A lot of players color their judgment on specific jobs even when they have a tendency to invite players of those jobs who are underleveled for their party.

When I build a party, I strive very, very hard to make sure everyone is within 1 level. By that I mean that if I'm level 59 and halfway to level 60, I will prefer to invite someone who is just barely 60, or 58 but within a few K of 59. Not only does this mean that XP is optimized from a per-player share basis, but it makes everyone more effective, since everyone is on roughly equal footing versus the monsters.

A few jobs can get away with being lower level. WHM, and BRD, which tend to have less direct interaction with monsters, can usually be up to 2 levels below and not suffer too horribly.

Properly constructed parties with less than optimal jobs are always superior to improperly constructed ones with "good" jobs. I hit level 59 RDM yesterday in a party that was NIN DRG DRK RDM BLM BLM. Not your "typical" party, but we were able to make chain 5 consistently with virtually down time, and everyone had a great time because we were all within 1 level of each other, and knew what we were doing with our jobs. No one felt left out, everyone was contributing, and monsters fell over like dominos from 4-5x magic burst on every skillchain.

In the case of SMN, if you want to play as primary healer only, sure you can be a couple levels under the curve. But for a SMN to do well offensively, they have to be within 1 level of the highest level in the party, just like you'd expect any DD to be.


Icemage

[Jokerboy1]

hey ice.. whats mp slip damage.. sorry -_- i dont know much..

[SlizenDize]

Oh come now. A statement like this applies to every other job out there.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough but I was refering to this


Do people really think a Summoner is just a Bloodpact per min and healer?


And I asked if he could give any sugestion of what you could do Between BPs when not counting sub job. The reason I said that was because we all know that between BP's a Summoner is helpless without a sub job. (Ask me the times I forgot to change /BLM to /WHM after I warped back from someplace but thats not the point lol) the point is I wanted to make a statement.

By the way I do realize now that I made a huge spelling mistake in my question "How many of those things you can do between BPs THEN ARE based on sub jobs?" it should ofcourse be "ARE NOT based on sub jobs?" anyway you get the idea. Note how I did not put in my personal opinion on this I did jsut make this one statement to see what people in general think about it.

EDIT:
hey ice.. whats mp slip damage.. sorry -_- i dont know much..

Hes refering to the constant MP slip you get while one avatar is Summoned, they all cost a certain amount of mp every third second to even be able to keep alive.

[Jokerboy1]

ohh.. lol thank u for clearing thta up for me

[tazirai]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough but I was refering to this



And I asked if he could give any sugestion of what you could do Between BPs when not counting sub job. The reason I said that was because we all know that between BP's a Summoner is helpless without a sub job. (Ask me the times I forgot to change /BLM to /WHM after I warped back from someplace but thats not the point lol) the point is I wanted to make a statement.



I still dont think we're helpless without sub , maybe its just me ^^

[Bahamut Kaiser]

Speaking as someone whos only enjoyed the company of Smns, and wants to be one some day, Smn is probably my second favorite job to have in my party.

Smn can use BP about once a minute, but thier BPs are vastly more effective and unique compared to jobs with simular functions. They get higher lvl black magics before Blm does, they have defense and attack enhancing buffs which are vastly more effective then anything anyone else can do, and alot of these buffs last for more then a minute so the Smn can usually maintain buffs over a good period of time, Smn can use powerful healing spells which cure the entire party and even remove several statuses, they have an almost infalible pull technique which makes them the only class that can pull in a link without drawing a link into the party, they have exceptionally powerful 2 hr which Smns can execute up to 3 times before the timer burns out.............. I could come up with more glories of Smn if i had more time, and less toxins in my system.

On a side note, Erase can be subbed at higher lvls, giving Smn almost all the capabilities of Whm, with even better Buff and Emergency cure techniques. And one of the main specialties of Smn is all those special moves they do with Avatars creates almost no hate for the party, which means Smn can use the most powerful moves in the game without even sweating hate.

Yeah, I feel sorry for you girl friend pal, she must be realy unnappreciated, heaven help you if I come along and show her how "special" she realy is =)

P.S. Smn is the opposite of Drg, look it up in the Windurst Library, see page 67.

[LadyPeorth]

I still love SMN and still plan to take it to 75, but the hike after 60 is proving very painful. I don't mind main healing...heck I'll do it very nicely, but the main problem comes when the RDM doesn't help. Almost always I'll be in a PT with a RDM and most of the time, not all, but most of the RDMs I PT with won't help Cure...and when they do, it's only because I'm outta MP. Spamming Cure III on a Protect 2ed Tank can only do so much. I'm not saying SMNs can not be treated as a main heal...I just wish people would not think of SMN/WHM as WHM/BLM(RDM,SMN)

[Karinya]

Interesting thread. I soloed SMN to 20 shortly after the solo prime fights came out - because I thought they would be an interesting and fun challenge. (They are, although Ramuh is a tough old bastard. Took me 3 tries.) Recently I got Fenrir, Carbuncle Mitts and Light Spirit and now I'm looking at leveling it some more, so this is an interesting set of perspectives on the job and its role in parties.

It does seem like a lot of (bad) parties are unwilling or unable to step outside the WHM BLM RDM mindset - anything else is either a substitute WHM or a substitute BLM (or for BRD, a substitute RDM). And I do see how SMN comes up lacking as either of those.

But isn't that a result of trying to put a square peg in a round hole? Having been in a RDM BRD BLM static for many levels, I'm pretty familiar with the way unconventional party setups demand that everyone adapt their tactics to the situation and not just do the same thing they would in WHM BLM RDM. This is especially likely to be a problem with the BLM, who are not often called on to be flexible. Fortunately in a static, they have plenty of time to learn, but if you had this setup in a pickup, a BLM that did fine in more conventional setups could easily turn into the weak link. Is this also the case for something like SMN BLM RDM? You expect more support from the BLM and RDM and don't get it?

Blue mage may very well have the same problems. Or open people's eyes to the fact that the backline *as a whole* has to fill certain responsibilities, but they don't have to be divided along the same lines in every party.

"SMN is fine at 70" does not equal "SMN is fine", though. If it has certain level ranges where it is a weak exp leech - then it needs to be improved *at those level ranges*, even if you can already outgrow the problem by leeching exp until you get <useful ability>. Game balance shouldn't be defined by the endgame, but should exist at all levels.

Also, are spirits really complete junk or is this a myth?


It's amusing to see a summoner describe RDM as a rare job, though. I see at least 3 RDMs for every SMN, probably more like 5... On Carbuncle I would describe only three jobs as rare: BRD, SMN, DRG.

[Tubbers]

SMN as I have experienced it is far less broken than you think. I'm currently leveling PLD with my LSmates who are raising NIN and SMN for the Promy missions (we all quit for about a year right after COP came out) We went from 20-28 in about 7 hours with the setup SMN, PLD, NIN, DRG, THF, THF. The THF were both /NIN and after level 24 we basically played the hate bouncing game off of shadows after I'd initial voke for the SA's. No mob lasted more than a minute ever, from Land worms (duh) to clippers, to pugils, to Mandies to Goblins. The only downtime we had was after bomb drops on Goblins, those SOB's. It worked out extremely well, SMN would do either a MB or SC off every battle. Red Lotus Blade > Burning Stike = Fusion, or Poison Nails (needed to save MP somewhere) > Blade: Retsu = Distortion. Between those BP's he would heal a few times then rest, it was all in all a VERY good party. Our first hour in Yuhtunga we got ~6500 exp, would have been a lot more but we constantly ran out of things to kill. This is partially because we had 6 members doing damage, and between the absorbed hits and fast kills healing wasn't a problem. SMN MP never went below half. With any other healer we would not have gotten nearly as much EXP, as the summoner consistently did about double the damage of either myself or the NIN each fight.

I know this is low-end game, but there was clearly a unique SMN element, the SMN said it was a lot like being, "a magical Samurai, with the SCs and MBs." And I think thats about right, because of the SMN we were able to do a SC every battle and even burst on the Fusion one (max was a 45 Banish, woot Divine Magic skill) and the SMN was still able to keep everyone healed.

I have no playing experience with SMN past 33, but I much preferred them to WHM when I was leveling DRK, the multiple Buffs, decent damage and main healing ability are more than enough to get them a slot in my party BEFORE level 70, BEFORE level 65, BEFORE level 60!

If people look at summoners as just another WHM, they are wrong, summoners are summoners, white mages are white mages, they are two different jobs with often overlapping duties. If a party leader can't see that, then make a party yourself, you can be laughing at them when you have a 5-6 summoner party and you're owning Bombs ~lvl 52 or you're serving up some mountains to the skels in KRT 70+.

If I've learned anything from wasting my time reading this topic its that instead of complaining about how they need to improve summoner, send me gil.

And you definately didn't hear it from me... but if you go to a site that rhymes with moogle, and look around for something with "Bloodpact Timer" you can fix that problem, but you didn't hear it from me, you heard it from that creepy guy who lives down the street and offered you candy.