Human vs. Evlaan: Red Mage

[Hidoku]

I know there are nominal discussions about red mage, but how often do you hear about Human vs Elvaan?
It's easy to pulvarize the human as an elvaan when it comes to more potent spells and a few more MP.
But lets consider all the food and drinks which could easily boost up the human red mage up to the elvaan red mage lvl.
Granted, if an elvaan ate the same food and drink they would be MORE powerful than the human once again.
Lets look beyond drinks, and MP and damage for one second.
Lets go to looks.
A red mage is likely to use a sword and shield. Simply because the sword is an amazing tool. But the Elvaan holds the sword, I am sorry to say it, like a complete sissy.
sorry!
Humans wield the sword as if it has some real magical power! Trust me, if you're going to take red mage to at least 50, you're going to regret being made fun of for the way you hold the sword.
but trust me on this one, if you plan to lvl Samurai, go Elvaan. No one holds a samurai sword like an Elvaan, but that is off topic.
I think in looks, the Human beats the Elvaan at the red mage job. And with the right food and drink, human can be just as good, or better.
But overall combat and mp usage, Elvaan will win. But lets face it. Elvaan hold the sword and shield quite, uh... well girly.:sweat:
So therefore, in my opinion, the Human Red Mages have it. Go Humans! You may smell bad and use foul language, but you can sure wield a sword! :spin:

[Jarigue]

did you base your opinion of hume RDM VS Elvaan RDM on the way they hold a sword ?

[Aelith]

It's easy to pulvarize the human as an elvaan when it comes to more potent spells and a few more MP.

Wait. Hold on. ... You're under the impression that an elvaan mage has more mp than a hume mage? O.o. That's not the case, the hume will have more mp and less mind.

Then you're basing it on how you hold a sword? Any decent redmage, post 50 (the level you talk about) will be using elemental staffs to help stick spells, heal mp, and increase cure potency. You won't be hitting the mobs to much with a sword, so that shouldn't be a problem at all.

Anyhow. You seem quite misinformed.

[Jarigue]

Originally posted by Aelith
Anyhow. You seem quite misinformed.

indeed.

[Icemage]

Until mid-70s, when a plethora of HP>MP gear becomes available, Taru RDM are actually the most effective. The handful of MND points is easily adjusted for by gear/food, and Taru RDM don't even have to work at maintaining the 1:1 HP/MP ratio that optimizes Convert, which means Taru RDM have a significant chunk of extra MP to spend every 10 minutes.


Icemage

[Jarigue]

Off-Topic: sup Icey :p

[Icemage]

Originally posted by Jarigue
Off-Topic: sup Icey :p

Nada. Levelling RDM these days, so this topic is close to my heart. :P


Icemage

[Kagerou]

Originally posted by Hidoku
lets go to looks.

Full Redmage AF=Pimp

Galkas with Full Redmage AF=
http://img290.echo.cx/img290/3130/music5lz.jpg

[Jei]

hmm I don't quite follow your original post. In terms of MP it goes this way

Tarutaru > hume = mithra (?) > elvaan > Galka

Elvaan has more STR and MND, Tarutaru has more INT and MP, hume is in the middle.

As far as redmage goes, you have to look a little deeper into their primary roles in differeint situation.

EXP party, which you will be spending a LOT of your time in...
We ARE primary refresher, haster and debuffer. We are secondary healer. Next we are occasionally nuker to help boost the MB from time to time or help finish up the mob. But lastly and probably the most mistaken... we are NOT an attacker who use sword.

When you look at it this way. the more MP the merrier. Which gives Hume more advantage than an elvaal *early on* . I mentioned early on because later on you'll gain access to more than enough MP gear. Even if you can't have as much MP as hume, you will still have enough nonthless.

Out side of EXP party, your role is very versatile. You can be anything. You can do the same thing you did in EXP party, or you can even become the main tank. This is where you get to use your sword to your death and do everything. In this case, Elvaan higher base STR really comes into your advantage.

Redmages, really, unless you choose to play Galka, will be fine MP wise regardless of race. It is more important to *know* your role and not be fooled by the sword in your hand. A Redmage MUST understand that he/she IS a mage. And perform your role accordingly.

if you can fulfill your primary role, no one would mind you swinging your sword at all. Just don't let your sword distracts you.

[Houston]

Until mid-70s, when a plethora of HP>MP gear becomes available, Taru RDM are actually the most effective.

Jefe, would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?

sorry, couldn't resist ><

to at least add something relevant: I think the OP wasn't too concerned about the finer points of race choice and rdm effectiveness.

Rdm is probably going to be my next job to 75, but mostly for soloing purposes. Hume/mithra/elv/taru are all pretty equal when it comes to soloing at 75, just need different tweaks.

I'm pretty anxious to start trying out rdm/bst in which it seems Hume and Elvaan would have the advantage over taru and mithra because of melee and chr respectively. But even then, I doubt the difference is substantial.

I'm 75 bst already, and am counting on the "charm based on bst lvl" theory. If anyone has links to test data or good first hand accounts of this, I'd appreciate it.^^

[Jei]

I had a 75rdm friend testing out /37bst. He can charm weak con mobs in about 4-5 tries. And release it to clear the aggro. That's pretty much all he likes about it... to get rid of aggro he's lazy to fight.

[Gman]

Originally posted by Houston
Jefe, would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?

sorry, couldn't resist ><

to at least add something relevant: I think the OP wasn't too concerned about the finer points of race choice and rdm effectiveness.

Rdm is probably going to be my next job to 75, but mostly for soloing purposes. Hume/mithra/elv/taru are all pretty equal when it comes to soloing at 75, just need different tweaks.

I'm pretty anxious to start trying out rdm/bst in which it seems Hume and Elvaan would have the advantage over taru and mithra because of melee and chr respectively. But even then, I doubt the difference is substantial.

I'm 75 bst already, and am counting on the "charm based on bst lvl" theory. If anyone has links to test data or good first hand accounts of this, I'd appreciate it.^^

Dunno if this helps, but I was using RDM/BST in Kuftal killing Recluse Spiders for the Promise Badge quest (and the odd web should they drop ;) ) and I'd say my charm success (BST 63) was about 60%. I rarely failed a charm twice, and got them first try about 60%. Recluse Spiders are 63-66. I had mega trouble with the Sabotender though. Probably took me 10 tries to charm due to their charm resistance.

I know for fact that anything level 62 or less I can charm as good as any BST can. When I was messing around in Tormailai for other quests I was charming everything... Stygian Pugils, Starmites, Dire Bats, Cutlass Scorpions (all ranging from 59-67) and had very few failures. Again, I had trouble with the charm resistant mobs (Mousse) and had to sleep them to get a successful charm without dying.

To the OP: wow that was insightful. I had no idea Humes had to use food and juice to keep up with elvaans. And while we are on the topic of "looks" why not comment on the stance an Elvaan takes when summoning something? {Elvaan} {summoner} {/poke} {fun}

[Ziero]

Male elvaan with a dagger = ballet dancer

[Rai|Kye]

i would always prefer a Hume over Elvaan redmage
im long done with Redmage but when it comes to Nuking the III-line for Light/darkness bursts, there is no way a elvaan or Galka could keep up with dmg a Taru or even a Hume/mithra do.

Taru Mithra/hume all have more base MP then Elvaan and can use the MP slots for Stats boost.
i know some really good elvaan redmages, but they will never be as good as the other races.
race DOES matter if it comes to this job

and dont come up with the "when i wear 100mil equip i outdamage every taru" stuff because why shouldnt the taru buy 100mil equip too ?

[Icemage]

Case in point, if you think the race/gear doesn't matter:

Levelling party 41-44 in Western Altepa Desert.

PT was NIN RDM RDM BLM RNG THF

Me: Taru RDM/BRD HP536/MP533
Elvaan RDM/BLM HP high600s/MP low400s

Elvaan RDM was *2 levels* above me.

Magic Burst damage difference: +33 in my favor, consistently. i.e. 213 damage for me, 180 for the Elvaan. That's a big difference.

To be fair, his Paralyze and Slow were more effective than mine (but that's probably due to his higher level too, once I levelled up, my enfeebles got a lot more consistent).


Icemage

[Sepukku]

Until mid-70s, when a plethora of HP>MP gear becomes available, Taru RDM are actually the most effective. The handful of MND points is easily adjusted for by gear/food, and Taru RDM don't even have to work at maintaining the 1:1 HP/MP ratio that optimizes Convert, which means Taru RDM have a significant chunk of extra MP to spend every 10 minutes.

In my XP gear, my ratio is 738 HP to 754 MP, Im a taru. Elfs I heard (I dont join 2-RDM PTs) are roughly like 8500-550 at my level (With AF on). INT is the RDM stat of choice for Dynamis, for sleeping. Taru wins easily (not to mention on MP). But for hume vs elvaan, Hume wins over elvaans too. I blacklist any RDM who I see meleeing 51+ in an XP thats pulling High VTs or anything IT. (Tough and Low-Medium VT its ok aslong as youre not main healing and youre still enfeebling and refreshing). A lot of RDM say their elemental nukes start really dragging 50+, I -STILL- rarely see a resist on IT's with Ice Staff equipped, where an Elvaan will be crying cause he wasted 80+ MP on a 30 damage Blizzard-2.

Additionally for the food/gear arguement saying "But Ill have errant, AF, or whatever else for +MP and +INT" isnt really valid, because the Taru or Hume will have it too.

Judging jobs on looks is stupid, you learn to like your characters appearance, it grows on you anyways. I hated my look in AF Body and I learned to like it, and when I got my Hat it was ugly, but nowadays youll never see me without it. I even fish with it on.

[tazirai]

Red Mage of Legend in FFXI = Elf(nuff said)

The main rdm in the game is Curillas father. RDM AF starts in Sandoria. If you want uber be taru RDM.
If you want to enjoy the job without worrying about Stats and what others think of you so much, Be whatever you want.

I hate how this game has come down to just numbers...grrr:mad:

[Sepukku]

Oh trust me, Im all for playing for fun and not numbers, Im also a Tarutaru 42-MNK who can't get over the fact that Raging Fists (RF) average the same damage as a THF's Viper Bite (VB), yet I get no invite. Sure, Distortion does 200-350 damage at my level, but the fact my punches do 30-50 (usually in the 40-50 average with Berserk which is up 60% of the time) per and the THFs dagger does 3-7 damage a swing should make up for the SC's chunk of damage. Not to mention I dont need my 2-hour to backup tank should the PLD, NIN, or WAR bite a bullet, where as THF would have trouble getting hate off the dieing WHM, and even if he did, he'd need his 2 hour to stay alive. Not to mention Taru MNK is so styleish.

But I always find myself LFP 4-6 hours with no invite ; ;.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Sepukku
Oh trust me, Im all for playing for fun and not numbers, Im also a Tarutaru 42-MNK who can't get over the fact that Raging Fists (RF) average the same damage as a THF's Viper Bite (VB), yet I get no invite. Sure, Distortion does 200-350 damage at my level, but the fact my punches do 30-50 (usually in the 40-50 average with Berserk which is up 60% of the time) per and the THFs dagger does 3-7 damage a swing should make up for the SC's chunk of damage. Not to mention I dont need my 2-hour to backup tank should the PLD, NIN, or WAR bite a bullet, where as THF would have trouble getting hate off the dieing WHM, and even if he did, he'd need his 2 hour to stay alive. Not to mention Taru MNK is so styleish.

But I always find myself LFP 4-6 hours with no invite ; ;. Raging Fist is good, but main reason why MNKs hardly get party is cause of the misconceptions, and the fact that Fusion has not much good starters. When I levelled my MNK, I find myself either soloing WS, or trying very hard to find a SAM or RNG to renkei with. :\

[Miriamel]

Well. Lvl66 RDM (as of yesterday). HP:966 MP:718 (BLM sub). Add food and I just so break 800MP.

MND when I toss out enfeebles (add in AF body&enfeebling torque): 65+18 = 83
INT when I burst (add in elemental torque+AF hat+HQ staff): 56+28+food = 84-89 (depending on what food I felt like using)

This is pre-lvl70 JSE and pre-Zenith. I don't outdo everyone, but I certainly out-do most.

[Sepukku]

Taru RDM's MND is so gimp -.-

Yes, Im a real big fan of Tachi:Kagero opening my Fusions, especially cause my party (its my party cause I'm always making them and not getting invites) can also do Distortion since theres a SAM to open both SCs.

[Rai|Kye]

Originally posted by Miriamel
Well. Lvl66 RDM (as of yesterday). HP:966 MP:718 (BLM sub). Add food and I just so break 800MP.

MND when I toss out enfeebles (add in AF body&enfeebling torque): 65+18 = 83
INT when I burst (add in elemental torque+AF hat+HQ staff): 56+28+food = 84-89 (depending on what food I felt like using)

This is pre-lvl70 JSE and pre-Zenith. I don't outdo everyone, but I certainly out-do most.

thats nice but a Hume/mithra with similiar gear would still "outdo" you.

taru can "outdo" without even buying expensive gear.

that u "outdo" every firstjob Redmage, no doubt but a some with atleast 1 more 60+ job, i dont think so.

not only you can obtain awesome gear.

[Miriamel]

Didn't say that, but let's face it and be realistic. Most don't, won't ever, and sure as hell don't have access to +55MP +4INT mitts and similar pieces for other spots. And about 30 merit points done.

As for Taru, I want to see them have my ease with enfeebling. They need to make up for it as much as I need to make up for my lack of INT, and successfully do.

Edit: Talking about merits, make that MP 728 now.

Sure there are people that out-do me, but any race can. Even my own. It's just that most don't. Don't invest the time, money, or whatever. There are few who actually do, no matter the race. Hell there have been many taru BLMs in my BLM career that were weaker than me. It all comes down to dedication and equipment, lastly.

[Pitlourde]

What is more important when the skillchain is about to start, hitting the burst, or Dispelling that Cocoon the Crawlers just threw up?

As RDM we spend the majority of our time (and MP) enfeebling. Bursting the skillchain with a nuke is something we do when we can, but there are other priorities.

So, what if a Taru can burst for 30 more points of damage than an Elvaan. We aren't Black Mages! It doesn't really matter if our nukes are resisted anyway, but if we fail to keep Paralyze and Slow up we are a bad RDM.

If you honestly think Taru = Uber RDM, that's fine. Keep kidding yourself. Everyone is actually very impressed when you MB for 300 right after the BLM bursts for 900.

LOL

[Jei]

Originally posted by Pitlourde
What is more important when the skillchain is about to start, hitting the burst, or Dispelling that Cocoon the Crawlers just threw up?

As RDM we spend the majority of our time (and MP) enfeebling. Bursting the skillchain with a nuke is something we do when we can, but there are other priorities.

So, what if a Taru can burst for 30 more points of damage than an Elvaan. We aren't Black Mages! It doesn't really matter if our nukes are resisted anyway, but if we fail to keep Paralyze and Slow up we are a bad RDM. Totally agree with this part. I would dispel asap in this case. MB is fun and somewhat helpful but not our priority (I mainly MB as an excuse to get my elemental skill up ;p)

[Miriamel]

Yeah, I prioritize dispel above pretty much everything else. The funny thing about RDM is that you have a list in your head that you go down of what to cast, lol. Don't really have that with any other job. At least not long lists. x.x;

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Sepukku
Taru RDM's MND is so gimp -.-

Yes, Im a real big fan of Tachi:Kagero opening my Fusions, especially cause my party (its my party cause I'm always making them and not getting invites) can also do Distortion since theres a SAM to open both SCs.

Godlin Mushpot is your friend. +10 MND, 3 hour, and only 1.1k each from NPC in Jeuno. Perfect for Taru RDMs. Elvaan RDMs doesn't have +10 INT food available for them. ;x

[Xyphere]

Numbers aren't everything (x_x

Just go with which race you think is cooler imo...

[Sepukku]

Im not a big fan of big food (its the small taru belly)...but even more not a fan macroes. I manual edit my spell list to have all the useful spells at the top and bottom of the list so I can use <- and -> keys on the PS2 controller to scroll to them instantly. I keep the useless stuff in the middle (The Spike spells, Enspells, Deodorize, Invis, Sneak, Aspir if were XPing on a non-XPable mob, etc.) It actually works really well and no one ever called me slow cause Im pretty fast with it. Cure's, Regen, Refresh, Haste, Dispel are at the top, Enfeebles, Sleeps, and Escape are at the bottom. Only macros I use are for Dispel and Refresh (one for each party member who uses MP, I use the <p#> commands). Only time I use a real full macro set is Quest/mission fights, Soloing anything higher than EP, and Ballista. Macroes slow me down when it comes to spells -.- Hence why only time I use them is when Im using stuff that requires item useage or equipment switching. (Sorry if that hijacks the thread)

But back to the topic of me and my Taru Belly, I have +15 MND (Debating getting Devotees Mitts and not using AF Gloves during XP), 2 Saintly Rings, Holy Phial, Red Cape, RK Belt+1, AF Legs, Dark/Light Staff. I dont have too much of a problem landing enfeebles, it often depends on mob type and its level compared to mine. Low IT or VT I can land things easily, High IT (Why people XP on these, beats me, usually Low IT XP PTs do better.) I usually have to recast a white magic enfeeble once or twice (Slow/Paralyze). For food, I dont use 3hr food, I use 3min food! /hurray Ginger Cookies. Between these and Dark Staff (plus Taru MP), I can handle emergencys real well due to high INT for sleep, and another 750 MP ready to go if we get into trouble. (750 is a lot for my level, 61.)

Lastly, Taru RDM is the coolest thing out there. Theyre the 2nd rarest RDM race only to Galka. But who loves Galkans? No one, they smell. Therefore Taru RDM rocks. Elvaan RDM is -so- overdone it's lost all its pride and valor looks to me when I see one in Jeuno. From what Ive seen on my 3 servers Ive played on, heres RDM race frequency from commonest to rarest:
1. Elf
2. Mithra (Verrry Hot w/ all AF except using RSE lv33 Body)
Thats probably one of the hottest ways a Mithra can dress.
3. Hume
4. Taru
5. Galka -- To this day, Ive only seen one Galkan RDM in AF, and thats after 16 months in Vanadiel, 220 days playing time, and 3 servers.

[tazirai]

Originally posted by Xyphere
Numbers aren't everything (x_x

Just go with which race you think is cooler imo...

Sadly most cant....:(

[Rai|Kye]

Originally posted by Miriamel
Didn't say that, but let's face it and be realistic. Most don't, won't ever, and sure as hell don't have access to +55MP +4INT mitts and similar pieces for other spots. And about 30 merit points done.

As for Taru, I want to see them have my ease with enfeebling. They need to make up for it as much as I need to make up for my lack of INT, and successfully do.

Edit: Talking about merits, make that MP 728 now.

ok....
there is nothing really special about wooden mitts is there ?
i mean i had Ocean mitts at 63 almost the same.

And about the merrit thing.. while u have to push into MP me and tarus can go for Enfeebling skill+.

Mnd is a stat that can easy be made up with gear because theres alot of actualy much cheaper gear for MND then for INT.

i dont say that elvaans sucks as RDM but the thread is Elvaan vs. Hume RDM.

so please tell me something only elvaan have that red mage would benefit much from.
sorry i just dont see any help in some strengh and a bad convert ratio only for some points of mnd that can easy be made up

[Miriamel]

Er, have you even looked into merits? From what you're saying here I'm assuming no. I have actually done enfeebling upgrades, they don't collide with MP upgrades.

And yes, the mitts are special, apart from Galka RSE (and certain Zenith) you won't find anything better in game. As is the +30MP +3INT +6AGI foot piece. +15MP +2INT earring, as well as +60MP +4INT rope.

RSE is there to make up for racial differences, and I can say it does a great job at that.

You're saying that MND is easily made up for, but INT is not? That isn't true, INT is easily made up for with what's available to me. It's entirely the same as making up for another stat.

Now please do tell me how 966HP/813MP is a bad convert ratio? I'd love to know.

You totally ignored what I said, too. I said yes, anyone can outdo me, no matter the race, it comes down to dedication and equipment. But the simple fact is, that hardly anyone does.

[Sepukku]

I always assumed my 738:754 was good....

[Xyphere]

If you really need convincing, the most legendary RDM in all the land, Rainemard, is Elvaan... AF Quests

[Jei]

just a reminder that the thread is hume vs elvaan. not taru :sweat:

[Sepukku]

If you really need convincing, the most legendary RDM in all the land, Rainemard, is Elvaan... AF Quests

I thought it was Grendal -.- (or me). Another godly RDM is Avesta (the one in the recent thread who is JP and his site has photos of him soloing Tyrannic Tunnok, Amikiri, etc. He, too, is a Tarutaru. Then again, Im sure any race of RDM could solo those, but being able to last longer inbetween Converts is nice.

Just because SE made the NPC for a job a certain race, doesnt mean its the best race. Galka is the MNK NPC type, but most people consider Elvaan to be the best ingame race for it.

[Xyphere]

Just because SE made the NPC for a job a certain race, doesnt mean its the best race. Galka is the MNK NPC type, but most people consider Elvaan to be the best ingame race for it.

You took what I said way too seriously... I was kidding.

[Rai|Kye]

Er, have you even looked into merits? From what you're saying here I'm assuming no. I have actually done enfeebling upgrades, they don't collide with MP upgrades.

And yes, the mitts are special, apart from Galka RSE (and certain Zenith) you won't find anything better in game. As is the +30MP +3INT +6AGI foot piece. +15MP +2INT earring, as well as +60MP +4INT rope.

RSE is there to make up for racial differences, and I can say it does a great job at that.

You're saying that MND is easily made up for, but INT is not? That isn't true, INT is easily made up for with what's available to me. It's entirely the same as making up for another stat.

Now please do tell me how 966HP/813MP is a bad convert ratio? I'd love to know.

You totally ignored what I said, too. I said yes, anyone can outdo me, no matter the race, it comes down to dedication and equipment. But the simple fact is, that hardly anyone does.

you know what ? you are right, sorry.
elvaans are No.1 Redmages !
i'm sorry i posted on this thread since everyone seems to know that Elvaans are the No.1 Redmages.

as for the merrits, yes i have looked into merrits >>
in know you can do both. but u need a crazy amount of exp to do both.

hope you feel better now

[Miriamel]

And again you didn't even look at what I said. Where did I say Elvaan are the best RDMs? Nowhere. All I said was that any race can excel at the job. Elvaans, too.

[Rai|Kye]

and again you dont understand >> i dont say elvaans cant be good red mages
i know alot of good elvaan redmages

BUT:

this Thread is about Elvaan vs Hume !
and when u look on the paper, when u look ingame, Hume are statswise HP/MP wise better then elvaans.
go make a hume mule and compare stats from level1 elvaan rdm and level1 hume redmage.

why u elvaan always want to shine in every job ? there are just jobs where other races are better at. YES, thats not a reasen to not play them but then atleast understand that if someone asks about the E vs (race of choice) that u statswise not always on top

[Miriamel]

Haha, I do understand that. I'm not arguing that the base stats are better. But, I'm also saying that any race with weaker base stats can and often will outdo a race with better base stats. I happened to be in a party with 2 other RDMs yesterday, all level 68. One Mithra, one Hume, and then me. I had the most MP, I had the best bursts and I took over the white enfeebles.

I don't see why you're so set on base stats. They don't really matter much in the end. ^^; My best friend happens to be a Hume BLM, and with all his gear and merits, I've only ever seen one taru that did more damage than him. He has so far owned all others that we've been in BLM PT with. Even I have outdamaged my fair share.

My HNM LS has two Taru NINs that average better HP than the Humes. I'll say it again: It all comes down to equipment and dedication. Saying that all Humes are better than Elvaans as RDMs is simply not true. They have, by default, a small advantage, but what they make of it is up to them. I have, by default, a small disadvantage, but I know how to get rid of it.