View Full Version : Would you exp without refresh?
Pounce
05-13-2005, 06:41 PM
Honest question.
Lv41+, would you exp without refresh? If you were invited to an exp party that did not have a RDM or BRD, would you stay with it?
I'm talking about more-or-less standard party setups, not things like mana/arrowburn, etc.
Also, for the sake of argument, let's say the tank is a PLD or WAR, not a NIN.
Susurrus
05-13-2005, 07:16 PM
I voted yes, but of course it all depends on the party setup. I've been in a couple parties on my WHM 60+ w/ no refresher that was absolutely wonderful. These parties are rare, but they're possible.
lionx
05-13-2005, 07:26 PM
I would depending on how the party was set up too and what we are exping on. Obviously we cant fight things that are too IT++ without refresh unless you bring a wad tons of juice. But on the other hand i can always sub BRD and get Ballad 1 and be the psuedo BRD. Its there for a reason :P Well one of the reasons anyway...rarely people ask me to sub BRD..=/ But i find it has its uses without a real BRD.
Tan'o
05-13-2005, 08:04 PM
It's really a moot point till you get BLM 64 because only BRD and RDM have Dispel till then. Juice isn't expensive so it's easily possible but Dispel is something that you can't live without.
You could argue SMN for Dispel, but when you have everyone's mob of choice, Crabs, with multiple buffs which they spam, or any type of Beastmen that have multiple up at any time, read: Goblins, it extends fights by alot.
When you get the jobs with Dispel, BRD and RDM, you expect them to go the whole Refresh thing as a main job.
After 64 maybe..just maybe with enough juice/ingredients and a very competent PT.
truenoir
05-13-2005, 08:48 PM
Overall though, I'd have to go with that answer too. Refresh, I can live without it as BLM...half the time I did anyway so far due to less-that-stellar RDMs...
Dispel, however, is not an option on a lot of mobs, especially the common crab/beetle/crawler. Incidentally, same general jobs you want for refresh provide that.
Marvul
05-13-2005, 09:45 PM
I'm BRD so this question is unfair for me to answer.
most mages I PT with these days and a lot of Pld+Drk can make their own juice. not as fast as refresh but still any regen helps. So yea.
Icemage
05-13-2005, 11:02 PM
Juicing only goes so far. Unless you do something weird like arrowburn with lots of utsusemi, you're going to run into some down time.
So no, if I can't find a RDM or BRD, then I won't waste my time XPing - there's more productive things I could be doing.
Icemage
> 90% of the time, I refuse to PT without some sort of consistent and significant refresh. It otherwise takes an incredibly well assembled PT to exp at the same per hour rate--which would likely go even faster if the PT had a refresher. I just won't take chances on a PT without a dedicated refresher since that could very well be 2-5 hours of wasted effort. Just too much frustration, even for a melee.
There are some exceptions to the rule, but for the majority of the time I'll pass.
Rones
05-14-2005, 02:25 AM
A pld tank with no refresher is a waste of time. Ideally you don't wait between fights, but a pld without refresh must. A party with no refresher can work with a nin tank and a skilled smn/whm or whm/blm though, but you ruled that out.
Hahaha that's a good one trying to get a smn for dispel. Not only is bloodpact 1 min (depends on penence set), you have to have fenrir also. It's so not worth it when you can make up damage lost from another bp.
As for living without dispel, or refresh. It's possible depending on style, setup, and monster.
Monsters like Raptors have very little buffs, so they're not really needed to dispel.
Refresh doesn't really do that much depending on how mana dependent a pt is. Have a smn, whm, blm combo and maybe a heavy hitting, low maintence melee like nin, thf, rng. And you're most likely then not sitting on mp for the big one.
And there are situations where you take power, over all. Heavy front end, light support. If you have a melee set that can hit a monters harder then it can put up a defense, refresh or dispel is minor. Just have 4-5 melee beat down, curaga, sit, curaga.
End game merit point xp pt is sometimes like that too. Nothing fancy, just bumrush, curaga, continue.
Hell, people can barely get me out of Jeuno without a rdm and a bard for merit parties.
From level 41 on? No way I'd join anything without Rdm or Bard. You're either going to kill masses of T-VT and pretend like it's working, or try IT mobs and end up with heaps of downtime. Especially with a PLD tank, who needs MP to function correctly. And a PLD on one knee is not a PLD with his sword out.
After level 50 - ask your WHM to sub bard if you're really going to try leveling without a RDM or BRD. Although, you'd be hard pressed to find a white mage with a leveled bard sub, and even more challenged to find someone who actually wanted to do it.
Eh, I've said too much again.
Cavalier
05-14-2005, 10:20 AM
Even though being a PLD, I've fallen in love w/ RDM and BRD (and THF's SATA too... provoke? I don't need no stinkin' provoke!), I voted yes.
With a good pt/good players, you can keep the downtime to only after chain #5 (and keep the downtime minimal, at that). That being said, I probably wouldn't pt with just any 'pick-up' that didn't have RDM or BRD, but I would with LS members or people that I've pt'd with before.
In fact, I like to pt w/o RDM or BRD once in a GREAT, GREAT while (liek if I'm 2k tnl or something), just to make sure I don't get lazy on managing my MP (it's pretty easy to keep hate when you can spam cures/banish/holy/etc non-stop). Plus, I have a Dark Staff now. :D
(Ironicaly, I just got out a pt that had RDM and BRD, and zero downtime for 2 hours. Bathroom Break, {Can I have it?}.)
Serantos
05-14-2005, 10:39 AM
As a PLD, I find it hard to xp without a refresh, it's possible, I just wont be able to WS as much. At lvl 60 as a hume PLD I have 254 MP. And depending on the whm, I usually burn around 100-150 MP a battle, flashing and curing. I love having a RDM in a PT, but if theres none available? Oh well, life goes on.
TheGrandMom
05-14-2005, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Cavalier
(Ironicaly, I just got out a pt that had RDM and BRD, and zero downtime for 2 hours. Bathroom Break, {Can I have it?}.)
Yes I had 2 pt's recently on my rdm where there was also a brd. Downtime = 0. No less than chain 5's. Good thing I was the rdm because when I needed a bathroom break I could actually get them to pause until I got back!
As for refresh, I've pt'd with no refresher. I would say that 85% of the time the pt wasn't very productive. There were the few that had certain elements that made them work out fine but they were rare. No matter what job I'm playing, I do prefer to have a refresher. But when I'm playing a mage job I'm not one of those people that puts in their search comment "No Refresh, no party". If the going is tough that night I'll take a pt with no refresher or just log off.
Cavalier
05-14-2005, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by TheGrandMom
No less than chain 5's.
yup ^^ It was nice too, cause I just got my Coronet, and needed to ding to 56. :D
It's sad that people are lock into a mind set of what a pt member must do...
Refresh as well as everything else has it's up's and downs.
Why refresh someone who is on full mp? etc.
And bumrush theory is a tactic NAs seems to not know.
a non specialized PT, with heavy melee can weck havoc. It's not even hard, as many times you don't skillchain or anything. Just use your strongest WS at 100%.
Just gotta pick the right monster at right level range.
I like raptors, only takes a few good sidewinders, rampage(whatever skill) to beat it down to nothiness. It's best at low IT-VT range, when even your weakest warrior will ramapge for 700 and sidewinders for 1.2k
Merit points xp seems to work even better like that, as those who know, you're walking around 80% of the time rather then camping anyway, so it's all about damage.
Pre-74, WAR/NIN with a White Mage (One with a full enfebling magic set along with +MND) doing Paralyze and Slow won't require much curing. Expecially on slow mobs like Manticores. Refresh not really needed then. :x
Lynsy
05-14-2005, 10:13 PM
I voted yes, but like a lot of other people said, it really depends.
With a PLD, I wouldn't PT without some form of refresh after 50.
On my WHM in 75 PT with 4xDD nd another mage (BLM, SMN) would be fine by me, depending on how much I trusted the other members of the PT and the location (Arua Statues or Ulegrand Range, Sure. Tomb or Weapons chain PT, hell no)
Generally speaking though, if I want to XP my WHM and there is no refresher available, I go duo XP with a MNK and do only marginally less XP/hr than a normal Statues PT.
Originally posted by Lynsy
On my WHM in 75 PT with 4xDD nd another mage (BLM, SMN) would be fine by me, depending on how much I trusted the other members of the PT and the location (Arua Statues or Ulegrand Range, Sure. Tomb or Weapons chain PT, hell no).
5 melee 1 WHM PT on weapons works real good. :x
Tan'o
05-14-2005, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by kuu
Hahaha that's a good one trying to get a smn for dispel. Not only is bloodpact 1 min (depends on penence set), you have to have fenrir also. It's so not worth it when you can make up damage lost from another bp.
As for living without dispel, or refresh. It's possible depending on style, setup, and monster.
Monsters like Raptors have very little buffs, so they're not really needed to dispel.
Refresh doesn't really do that much depending on how mana dependent a pt is. Have a smn, whm, blm combo and maybe a heavy hitting, low maintence melee like nin, thf, rng. And you're most likely then not sitting on mp for the big one.
And there are situations where you take power, over all. Heavy front end, light support. If you have a melee set that can hit a monters harder then it can put up a defense, refresh or dispel is minor. Just have 4-5 melee beat down, curaga, sit, curaga.
End game merit point xp pt is sometimes like that too. Nothing fancy, just bumrush, curaga, continue.
Not to quible, but if you read the OP, she says
Honest question.
Lv41+, would you exp without refresh? If you were invited to an exp party that did not have a RDM or BRD, would you stay with it?
Also, for the sake of argument, let's say the tank is a PLD or WAR, not a NIN.
I said you could argue for SMN, but not worth it because of multiple buffs.
The OP also said that we're considering a PLD or WAR tank. I know like you said on the right mob, a NIN tank and melee's /NIN, you really won't need a Refresh, but using a PLD and WAR who need to be Cured, it's fairly unrealistic, and with some set-up's, almost impossible to chain.
Originally posted by kuu
It's sad that people are lock into a mind set of what a pt member must do...
Refresh as well as everything else has it's up's and downs.
Why refresh someone who is on full mp? etc. Is refreshing what a Rdm must do? If you said that's a mind locking thoughts im sorry but it IS what a Rdm MUST do. We play Rdm expecting to do it, and we invite Rdm expecting them to do so. When creating a PT we choose the jobs we invite because of course we want them to do what they're supposed to do. You invite a ranger you want them to shoot arrows/bullets and do damage, invite a PLD you want him to hold hate and tank don't you? Now how is that mind set a "sad" thing? You must be really happy when your Paladin plays nuker with banish/holy and doesn't tank.
On the refresh note, do you know how much easier for us Rdm to keep our refresh cycle going on even if our target has full MP? For Drk and Brd, those are special case that Rdm can add and drop them out of the cycle upon situation. But for other mages/paladins it never hurts to keep the refresh cycle going on and it hardly adds t othe downtime. Keeping the cycle going when MPs are full mean more work for *us* but at the comfort of the entire PT so your point is?
RuneGrey
05-14-2005, 11:40 PM
Hmmm. I think that one thing that a lot of people miss is that while Refresh is a big thing, it isn't THE only thing that Bard and Red Mage bring to a party with them. I personally think you could give refresh to another job (say, SMN with a single target Refresh bloodpact, or some other wierd combination) and you wouldn't really be making up for the lack of a Bard or Red Mage in your party.
Both jobs bring a rich and diverse array of abilities to a fight that you wouldn't have otherwise. Of course, their ability to use Refresh is potent, and its no doubt a big part of their draw, but if all your Red Mage or Bard does is refresh your party, then you're losing out on a large amount of available utility. Dispel and Finale are big parts of that as well, but things like Gravity, Haste, Carnage Elegy, (heck, the entire array of buffs a Bard has at their fingertips) are all hard to beat.
So yeah. Personally, I think its not just refresh that people are missing - its all the other abilities that helps to support refresh as well.
Icemage
05-15-2005, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by Tifa
After level 50 - ask your WHM to sub bard if you're really going to try leveling without a RDM or BRD. Although, you'd be hard pressed to find a white mage with a leveled bard sub, and even more challenged to find someone who actually wanted to do it.
I've been only refresh as WHM/BRD a few times. It's workable, but *incredibly* painful, and I hate to to do it even though WHM/BRD is what I prefer to XP with. Even with lots of practice at playing the combination, it's immensely difficult to be main heal, main enfeebler, AND main refresh; there just isn't enough time and MP to do it all.
WHM/BRD + RDM/BLM is usually the combination I go after when I XP.
Icemage
I like to be rdm/brd myself. Save the Whm's some energy :)
Lynsy
05-15-2005, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by ZQM
5 melee 1 WHM PT on weapons works real good. :x
...
I've been only refresh as WHM/BRD a few times. It's workable, but *incredibly* painful, and I hate to to do it even though WHM/BRD is what I prefer to XP with. Even with lots of practice at playing the combination, it's immensely difficult to be main heal, main enfeebler, AND main refresh; there just isn't enough time and MP to do it all.
Quite true, the trick is not to do everything, and live on the parts that make it efficient. It all goes under "skillz" section.
A simple, experienced puller will not only lessen reliance on mana reserves(refresh need), but alow you to do higher chains. Non stop pulling is all well and good, but it's experience that wins in the end.
The mages themselves should excerise flexiblity and general conservation ideas. Simply sitting the start of the fight out, is not going to kill the tank/slow killing rate and nets you more mp via the increasing tick meter.
[example: don't be stupid and stand up after every pull throwing a massive debuffs/regen regime if you have 10% mp]
Passing hate. A tank is a tank, but a tank shouldn't always tank. Let your DD take hate if you feel you need time off. Nin or pal.
Lastly offsense over defense. It's a good thing to learn in XP pts. Using it well allows you to net those high chains. A blm can simply sit half the fight, and over nuke the end of the fight and works out pretty well.
Edit: I get that for smn all the time. Who needs crappy aerial armor for 100mp when you can do a 200 damage bp, and still have mp to heal.
Jabeo
05-19-2005, 07:38 AM
No. It's a waste of everyone's time to try and EXP w/o a refresher. The downtime caused by the lack of a refresher is rather significant and is the reason why I would not EXP w/o a RDM or BRD. Not to mention both of these jobs can Dispel buffs from mobs (SMN w/ Fenrir can too at a certain level) which makes fights easier as well (not to mention their respective enfeebling capabilities).
Dispel is over rated, not to mention sub-able.
Just to scroll down a quick list of xp monsters that need to be dispel critically.
Crawlers, crabs, mages, big birds, (possiblity beetles), (possiblity lizards)... that's about it.
All other mobs are offensive skills, and don't need to be dispelled. Actually i wouldn't even need to dispel crawlers that much. They usually die quicky even without dispel, if instead of a rdm, you have another DD like blm/smn/melee to make up for it.
Refresh, is minor, but then the orginally poster sets a big set of "Nos" by saying non nin tanks, nor this or that.
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