View Full Version : A serious discussion w/GM about gilsellers & stealing.
Asharu
05-13-2005, 01:21 AM
Gilsellers are everywhere these days it seems. Fei'yin is one of those places. I used to hunt Capricious Cassie practically every day back when there was little competition and when people actually respected each other when NM/HNMs would go unclaimed. But as of lately, gilsellers have been attending Capricious Cassie fights, and do not hesitate to "steal" Cassie when she goes unclaimed.
The other day I was by myself in Fei'yin when Cassie popped. The gilsellers were on the way, so I had no choice but to claim when they arrived. In the meantime, I was holding Cassie with binds and whatnot, while waiting for my backup to arrive (we can kill Cassie as a duo). Somewhere between the occasional nukes, binds, and gravities, Cassie went unclaimed and the gilsellers stole it. I almost got killed since hate was still on me, but I managed to stay alive. I was helpless to do anything, so I stood there and watched while they knocked some HPs off Cassie. I had called a GM to watch what was going on. Fortunately, Cassie went unclaimed again, and I decided to take her back since I originally had claim on her. Because the gilsellers garnered so much hate on Cassie, I wasn't able secure hate very well, thus Cassie kept attacking them; no one died however. The GM felt it was necessary to take me to jail because of this, and the rest you'll read in the conversation...
http://hometown.aol.com/skewlsout/gm1.jpg
http://hometown.aol.com/skewlsout/gm2.jpg
http://hometown.aol.com/skewlsout/gm3.jpg
http://hometown.aol.com/skewlsout/gm4.jpg
http://hometown.aol.com/skewlsout/gm5.jpg
Thoughts? Opinions? I'd love to get a second opinion on this, simply because I felt like the GM took me in there based more on opinion than "policy". Also, based on the conversation, I learned a few things such as not being allowed to hold a monster for a long period of time -- apparently this is a new rule now? Share your thoughts! Thanks.
Elaron
05-13-2005, 01:36 AM
NO its not allowed to hold a monster waiting for others to arrive or trying to push it to a diffrent timezone. This is what SE calls "monopolizing claims" in the user agreement.
While I rather you not use "gilsellers",
since these days it's a catch all phrase for making you look right, and the other people wrong,
It's a case of something that actually helps gillsellers then hurt. They did nothing wrong voking an unclaimed.
S-E may look like a lazy cop, but was in fact a good policy as being too quick on an issue will ultimately make mistakes and big ones.
These new policies seems like the GM is stuck between a rock and a hard place. He has to do his job, and what he was told to do, policy is policy after all and he saw what he saw.
I suppose if it had been the old policy, GMs would let by-gones be by-gones as both parties did something somewhat wrong.
You holding a monster, but not with enough power to keep it unclaimed.
They being rude and voking the minute it goes unclaimed.
The you doing it onto them.
Niland
05-13-2005, 03:46 AM
its a shame it was gilsellers that took the NM, but the GM is right.
running around binding cassie until your 'backup' arrives is just as lame as stealing. that said, its a shame you couldn't get the NM back without being jailed....since stealing from gilsellers is ok^^
Treth
05-13-2005, 04:06 AM
I agree with Niland
but still, in this game and in every-day life, there's something called respect... there might b a better word for it...
Example: I'm out hunting Stroper Chymes and someone gets the pop. I'll give him a lil /cheer or whatnot, and let's say it goes unclaimed for some reason. I wouldn't attack it, because I respect other ppl. If they get the pop, it's there's, they earned it.
What u did wasn't right, because it went against "policies". What the gilsellers did wasn't right either, because it was very low and evil imo. Gilsellers only cause problems in this game, I mean if there weren't any gilsellers, u wouldn't have had this problem.
so next time, just make sure the situation is in ur favor b4 u call a GM ^^
The whole "holding" deal is blown out of proportion from GMs, and I think it's really stupid.
There is a linkshell on Pandimonium that kills KB with 4 people. This wasn't like a one time deal, they do it often and everybody knows about it. A NA linkshell called a GM, and the GM gave claim to the NA linkshell (Supposedly. That's what the LS said, but they never showed screenshots or anything backing it up when people said they stole it) because the JP LS was "holding" it. They weren't holding it, they were killing it. It just takes them a bit longer considering they're killing it WITH FOUR FUCKING PEOPLE. Mind you, this was the same NA linkshell that take 3 fucking hours to kill Fafnir with almost 30 people (And no, I'm not exageratting. That's seriously how long they take). :rolleyes:
A linkshell mate of mine was skilling up, and I'm sure as you all know you try to do the least amount of damage as possible so the mob lives longer for more chance of a skill up. A GM contacted his skill up group, and told them they would be sent to jail if they did not kill the mob quicker. What the fuck?
So I guess if an alliance of 75's go to west ronfaure, we should call a GM on all the level 1's out there because we kill faster then them?
Cavalier
05-13-2005, 04:38 AM
At least he was willing to speak with you about it, here's how my GM experience last night went:
GMsomething: So, spamming "[some cuss words]" were we?
me(a blm alt, not my main character): yes...
GM: This is against the rules and further offenses will result in your account being suspended. Understood.
me: understood.
... (a couple minutes later)
me: hello?
... (a few more minutes)
me: hello? GMsomething?
... (a few more minutes)
me: hello?
me: what's going on? are you just leaving me here? I have a couple questions...
... (a few more minutes)
me: I've seen pics of people in GM jail (btw, you could see your GM Asharu? cause I was all alone...), and I think you're supposed to explain exactly what my offense was and ask me if I understand that, and ask if I have any questions.
... (a little while later)
me: hello? GMsomething?
me: c'mon, this has got to be considered griefing, and that's a violation of the POL terms. You just dumped me here with 2 sentences and that's it?
... (a little over an hour waited with no response. I then sent a GM call, and waited another hour or so till I got a response from a new GM)
GMnewguy: greetings. you spoke with a GM earlier?
me: yeah. he dropped me here, told me any more offenses would result in account suspension, and that was it.
GMnewguy: do you understand why you are here?
me: kinda. but im not sure if it was for spamming, swearing, or directing the remarks towards S/E.
GMnewguy: the spamming and swearing. you're allowed to hate us to your hearts content.
me: lol okay.
me: Isn't the GM supposed to lecture me, ask if I understand, ask if I have any questions, then lemme know whats going to happen?
GMnewguy: Do you need me to lecture you about this?
me: no... :P
*warped back to HP*
I didn't get a chance to ask the GMs about the incident that pissed me off enough to do such a thing, about how 'at risk' my account is (BTW, how strict are they about this? I don't want my account suspended because I accidently swear in a /sh or have a shouting match with someone, or anything like that), or a couple other questions I had. at least you were able to talk to your GM. :/
TheGrandMom
05-13-2005, 04:41 AM
"If you feel the need to change policy, I suggest you send your suggestions to SE via the website."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Laughed so hard I cried on that one! Classic...just classic!
Otherwise all they did was enforce the rules. Do some of them suck? Damn straight they do, especially when they get "selective enforcement".
divisortheory
05-13-2005, 07:23 AM
Unfortunately I think the GM is right. The claim / steal made no difference because it is part of GM law not to interfere with those issues. What is an issue is that you were holding the monster while other people were waiting ot kill. Even if they had never stolen it from you in the first place, the alleged RMT group could have called a GM on you and you still would have been taken to jail. The issue is simply that if people are waiting to fight, you must fight as well.
It's rather unfortunate that steals are even allowed to happen in the first place. And it's even more unfortunate that GMs cannot enforce those issues.
TheGrandMom
05-13-2005, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by divisortheory
It's rather unfortunate that steals are even allowed to happen in the first place. And it's even more unfortunate that GMs cannot enforce those issues.
Yes this is the base of the issue. It was rather shocking to hear a GM basically say that the mob becoming unclaimed my not be a bug but yet an intentional design! That would be one of the most asinine designs ever put into a game! They want to keep the peace by not letting you hold mobs but they don't care if you steal them from someone!? Oy!
Ziguld
05-13-2005, 09:22 AM
"I see you spoke with GM Chandrok"
Nuff said. Seems Yojadi is of the same mental midget breed as Chandrok. You would think that some of these twits would have their shit straightened out since they've been doing the GM thing since EQ, but sadly nope.
Guess I'm just a bitter chap, cause everytime I put in a GM call I want Chandrok to pop up... Although I'd probably get a couple dozen warnings for personal attacks on that one:angel:
To a small extent alot of these problems are out of the hands of GMs. They're really not supposed to interefere as per SE policy. However recently they keep taking an active stance in these disputes and are doing it by they're own ignorant accord. Yojadi's "you can steal back ifyou get hate" bit when you're at a CC fight shows his ignorance of how CC and hate work.
I'm actually glad SE has a non-involvement policy, because the SOE GMs they employ are still the biggest bunch of tools ever.
(And no, I'm not exageratting. That's seriously how long they take). And remember the time the WHM outside the main allaince where healing from behind Nid? yeah that was good.:rolleyes:
Minimee
05-13-2005, 09:22 AM
heres my opinion on this. as i have spent countless hours camping stroperchyme. 1st. holding a mob. i have mixed feelings on this, but due to my experiences the rules on this are in our best interest. example: im camping stroper i have his time tod at 3 of the 4 spawn areas. i am able to kill and make it to next spawn area for next spawn. since its me against a full party or alliance of gil sellers im at a disadvantage. one of them gets claim. they voke and dont engage. they hold claim so that i cant get to next spawn on time or cant get tod. this puts me at a bigger disadvantage. i have and will again call GM anytime i see someone claim a mob and not engage it just voke and stand there. i have also had gil sellers go hand to hand and i know the GM's dont allow that if they are doing almost no damage or not using weapons, holding it to offset tod. this is a rule to help agaisnt the monopolizers (gilsellers).
now the claim stealing. i personally think it is wrong ethically. but since it is not against the rules and is obviously a part of the game. ALL MOBS THAT ARE YELLOW ARE FAIR GAME. wether you had claim and hate or not. yes i had stroper taken from me when it went yellow during battle. yes i was mad as ive ever been in game. depending on situation, i might or might not steal a claimed mob. against gil sellers in ordelles, oh yeah i constantly hit my target claim macros, they do.
now ash what happend to you was a bad deal. you called the GM is why he was there. the gm should have waited until you lost claim, or were defeated or you defeated the mob. by grabbing you he gave claim back to the gil sellers. i think the reason you were taken away was you were only trying to hold the mob not kill it or get hate. im sure you got a laugh at them for getting hit and not being able to do anything about it, just like they had done to you.
ash you are on the GM's radar so you will have to be more tactful from now on. i dont know if you remember this or not but i was in beta and called a GM on you along with many others. last week of beta i was on an exp push so i could do some things i hadnt done in game yet. seems someone was running around quifim with kraken in tow. i was mpked 2 times. i know you were just blowing off steam because beta was coming to an end, but i was trying to reach a goal. i also know that there were people that made the comment if theres people like that in beta ill never play retail would be thousands of them. :biggrin: its all good now.
Yes this is the base of the issue. It was rather shocking to hear a GM basically say that the mob becoming unclaimed my not be a bug but yet an intentional design! That would be one of the most asinine designs ever put into a game! They want to keep the peace by not letting you hold mobs but they don't care if you steal them from someone!? Oy!
No in this case it's not a bug. There was an extended amount of time not doing anything to the monster.
He was holding it, not fighting it. To ward off BB.
This is intentional, you should not have right to a monster, epecially 1day pop NMs for something you have no imediate attention of trying to kill.
If you want to hold a monster do it properly, with the risk of getting hit by 1 or 2 bb while backup arrives.
It's rude to take voke it before the person dies, but hey that's life on HNM dramas.
Yea, Gilsellers, should have no justice, even if they claim the earth is round, we all know that's not true because they're gilsellers. Change a few words and I think that's call racism.
divisortheory
05-13-2005, 10:45 AM
It's funny, all problems would be solved if they made EVERY MONSTER attackable by anyone and everyone.
Drops / exp / gil go to the party / alliance of the first player that attacked.
Once that entire party is either dead or in another zone, drop / exp / gil ownership is immediately reset to 0.
Anyone who tries to steal the monster now won't make a bit of difference, they're just helping you make the kill and get your drops.
yuukei
05-13-2005, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by divisortheory
It's funny, all problems would be solved if they made EVERY MONSTER attackable by anyone and everyone.
Drops / exp / gil go to the party / alliance of the first player that attacked.
Once that entire party is either dead or in another zone, drop / exp / gil ownership is immediately reset to 0.
Anyone who tries to steal the monster now won't make a bit of difference, they're just helping you make the kill and get your drops.
That would kinda make it way too easy to level then ^^;; A party starts attacking a mob. Then you get your lvl 75 friend to one shot it. Oops. Free exp. Don't even mention chaining. Even if you decrease the EXP in case a high level attacks something, well then there's still a problem. Piss me off? I think I'll go attack your EXP monster. You only got 7 exp for that IT++++? Sorry I thought you guys were in trouble.
Ayrilana
05-13-2005, 11:22 AM
Ok. You go get an alliance to fight Nidhogg. I'll have someone in my PT claim it and die so it'll go unclaimed. Then your allaince can kill it so I'll get the drops.
This will honestly make things worse. People will take parties with at least 2 people and have 1 person sit at the zone while the other goes and claim. When the person claimed dies, they lose claim and someone else steals it and kill it giving them the drops.
Macht
05-13-2005, 11:30 AM
Loosing hate in the game is definatly based on something though. I've had 45 counts to date now, when soloing that a monster would just suddenly loose intrest in me and leave. These were not NMs either they were regular mobs I usually farm.
Even now at lv. 60 if I slap on a weak bow and use wooden arrows on a monster in Eastern Sarutabaruta. If the monster survives the ranged attack they'll probably come for me. Once they are right in front of me they suddenly stop, go unclaimed, and walk away.
I've always thought this was a relation of high CHR, I felt more certain of it once I had +10 CHR at lv. 15. Every Tough monster I fought with that job would quickly loose intrest in me, I ended up having to use a DoT spell(Dia) to keep hate otherwise the instant they finishing with my pet they would not chase me. They just turned around and walked off like they were not being attacked, which was completly different then normal.
Anyway like the GM had said though, that is definatly true. You are not allowed to hold a monster waiting for 'backup'. In otherwords if you are going to hunt an NM then they want you to already have the party present and ready to kill it. They can't be somewere on the otherside of the world doing something and work their way over to you when you need help.
The incident with the skillup party, it's most likely because the GM saw you had the firepower to kill the monster quicker. As a result there is no way to be certain that you're using skilling up as an excuse to slow something down if you have stronger weapons with you.
The best thing to do in that case is leave your stronger equipment back at the mog house so that you are infact fighting to what your current setup can do as big a pain as it is, these are the end results of what happens when legit players think of taking actions into their own hands to stop gilsellers in a negative method.
Originally posted by Macht
The incident with the skillup party, it's most likely because the GM saw you had the firepower to kill the monster quicker. As a result there is no way to be certain that you're using skilling up as an excuse to slow something down if you have stronger weapons with you.
The best thing to do in that case is leave your stronger equipment back at the mog house so that you are infact fighting to what your current setup can do as big a pain as it is, these are the end results of what happens when legit players think of taking actions into their own hands to stop gilsellers in a negative method.
Ok what about this? I'm skilling up on a Steelshell in Boyhada solo but the catch is I'm sleeping it and using a ceremonial dagger which does 0 dmg every hit. Even with 0 dmg I still get skillups, but the mob never loses any life. I sleep this same mob over and over for an hour, and some group gets pissed at me for some unknown reason... what have I done wrong? Sure I can kill it if I really want to, but I'm not there to kill it, I'm there to skill up. I cant imagine anyone actually getting pissed about this as its just a regular mob, but I'm not breaking any rules, as far as I'm concerned. Ironically if I was in real skillup PT we would be killing a crab every minute, leaving nothing for the exp party to kill. Me doing this only takes up one mob, leaving the rest free to kill.
taru_ranger
05-13-2005, 12:01 PM
http://members.optusnet.com.au/wafiks/playonline/10synthesis.html (http://)
Macht
05-13-2005, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by taru_ranger
http://members.optusnet.com.au/wafiks/playonline/10synthesis.html (http://)
Hmm, funny. Took SE's page and just altered it some.
Originally posted by Gman
Ok what about this? I'm skilling up on a Steelshell in Boyhada solo but the catch is I'm sleeping it and using a ceremonial dagger which does 0 dmg every hit. Even with 0 dmg I still get skillups, but the mob never loses any life. I sleep this same mob over and over for an hour, and some group gets pissed at me for some unknown reason... what have I done wrong? Sure I can kill it if I really want to, but I'm not there to kill it, I'm there to skill up. I cant imagine anyone actually getting pissed about this as its just a regular mob, but I'm not breaking any rules, as far as I'm concerned. Ironically if I was in real skillup PT we would be killing a crab every minute, leaving nothing for the exp party to kill. Me doing this only takes up one mob, leaving the rest free to kill.
If you read what the discussion is. The GMs is only intrested in what are popular monsters to hunt were taking a long time to kill or preventing others from killing can actually cause an effect to others play.
This happens to be most of the NMs in which this occurs with a few normal monsters that players may consider NMs like Stroper Chyme. Other then that you can hold a monster like any run of the mill lizard you find a zone that doesn't fit those conditions.
So like your example with the steelshell, there are tons others that are just like it any player can still get so it's impossible for your action there to cause any real grief. It may cause some annoyance for a party having 1 less mob they can get out of the other steelshells but it doesn't stop them from getting the other steelshells.
EDIT:
If someone were to actually get in trouble for holding hate on something like Mist Lizards, Crabbers, Steelshells, or any other monsters that are all over the place. If it doesn't have a big timer on it, then provide proof of that and I'll agree something may of been mental with the GM.
TheGrandMom
05-13-2005, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Asharu
Ash: But something really really REALLY needs to be done about this stupid "unclaim bug" because I've witnessed countless attempts to steal monsters because of this stupid bug.
[GM] Yojadi: I am sure its under investigation. It's also important to note that monsters may become unclaimed due to reasons that are by design.
Originally posted by TheGrandMom
Yes this is the base of the issue. It was rather shocking to hear a GM basically say that the mob becoming unclaimed may not be a bug but yet an intentional design! That would be one of the most asinine designs ever put into a game! They want to keep the peace by not letting you hold mobs but they don't care if you steal them from someone!? Oy!
Originally posted by kuu
No in this case it's not a bug. There was an extended amount of time not doing anything to the monster.
He was holding it, not fighting it. To ward off BB.
This is intentional, you should not have right to a monster, epecially 1day pop NMs for something you have no imediate attention of trying to kill.
If you want to hold a monster do it properly, with the risk of getting hit by 1 or 2 bb while backup arrives.
It's rude to take voke it before the person dies, but hey that's life on HNM dramas.
Yea, Gilsellers, should have no justice, even if they claim the earth is round, we all know that's not true because they're gilsellers. Change a few words and I think that's call racism.
I never said a thing about holding. I was talking about the "bug" issue in the conversation with the GM. In fact, if you read my very first post I said "Otherwise all they did was enforce the rules. Do some of them suck? Damn straight they do, especially when they get "selective enforcement".", which means I know that holding a mob is against the rules.
Even now at lv. 60 if I slap on a weak bow and use wooden arrows on a monster in Eastern Sarutabaruta. If the monster survives the ranged attack they'll probably come for me. Once they are right in front of me they suddenly stop, go unclaimed, and walk away.
Dispite what newbies claim, monsters do not follow you all the way to zone. There are conditions on which a monster will loose your sent.
It was probably a crawler, as they are the easiest to go back to neutral. Just have them cross through water.
People do this/hate this in boyah all the time.
Orc rangers are also pretty easy to loose, I believe they are sight, and just lose them in the trees.
Ayrilana
05-13-2005, 05:53 PM
Claim is based on hate. If you don't want to lose claim to something like King Behemoth, don't kite it. There are some instances where things can go unclaimed for the wrong reasons but 90% of the time it is because of the people that had it claimed in the first place that lost it.
Do some of them suck? Damn straight they do, especially when they get "selective enforcement".", which means I know that holding a mob is against the rules.
It isn't really selective enforcement here. The person Called the GM there. It's not some random, pass by. He was called to laid down some smack.
The thing is, that the person sorta went vigilante. Doing the exact same thing the "bad guys" did.
The problem was the GM saw the "good guy" and not the "bad guy" wrong doings.
Hey if you're going to take the law into your own hands, don't let cops catch you, I think we've seen enough movies to figure that out.
TheGrandMom
05-13-2005, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by kuu
It isn't really selective enforcement here. The person Called the GM there. It's not some random, pass by. He was called to laid down some smack.
The thing is, that the person sorta went vigilante. Doing the exact same thing the "bad guys" did.
The problem was the GM saw the "good guy" and not the "bad guy" wrong doings.
Hey if you're going to take the law into your own hands, don't let cops catch you, I think we've seen enough movies to figure that out.
/sigh
The comment "Do some of them suck? Damn straight they do, especially when they get "selective enforcement", was a GENERAL reference to rules being enforced selectively. It was not about this case in particular. I know the difference between right and wrong at my age.
Ziguld
05-13-2005, 07:28 PM
Claim is based on hate.
umm... if that was the case then when you get something stolen such as KB it would imediately attack the person who took it, not go around MPK'n those who had it.
Its been proven that casting a spell and having the mob move out of range of the spell = go yellow. This used to happen with WS and BPs but that was fixed. The spell bug was not.
Things go yellow over time just because. You can have two Homos, Saber, Bio2, Rasp, Poison2 all on something like KB or Aspid and if someone is spamming voke they WILL eventually steal from you and in the process MPK you because you still retain hate. If that isn't a bug or at least bad design, I dunno what is.
Anakron
05-13-2005, 09:16 PM
Erm...not exactly a related question, but where does the "go yellow" come from? Specifically the "yellow" part. As far as I know, unclaimed monsters' names appear as white and call-for-helped monsters' names are the ones that appear yellow. But it seems people use "go yellow" to describe the former type of monsters. What gives?
(I don't think it's a problem with my monitor settings >.>)
Ayrilana
05-13-2005, 09:30 PM
I was referring to a different aspect. When you lose hate on KB, it goes unclaimed. If you sleep a mob long enough, it'll go unclaimed if no actions are done to it.
when some of the people that attacks/nukes/do anything to the mob switch to new target, there's chance the mob will go yellow. not sure what exactly triggers this.
Ayrilana
05-13-2005, 10:10 PM
Jei, how's Jeeb doing? Heard he went back to Titan and started up a new character.
Ziguld
05-13-2005, 11:09 PM
(I don't think it's a problem with my monitor settings >.> )
Players = White
Players in party = Light Blue
Unclaimed = Yellow
Claimed by party = Red
Claimed by others = Purple
Call for Help = Orange
Pets = Light Blue
Anon players = Dark Blue
Thats what the majority of people playing the game see, hence the term "go yellow".
If you sleep a mob long enough, it'll go unclaimed if no actions are done to it. This is target switching thing. If I sleep a mob on blm or brd and don't look at anything else, the mob stays claimed. Pretty sure this little aspect of the claim system was done so one party couldnt lock up multiple mobs to deny others anything. However thats working fine and dandy. If you're not engaged with a mob it should go unclaimed. The problem (and as a result where the bug claim comes from) is when you're engaged with a mob, it has hate on you, and just goes yellow. And this isn't a result of kiting. Aspid, Nidhogg, and Vorpal Bunnies alike will randomly go yellow when they're being straight up tanked and beaten on. Thats the problem that the Developement staff is ignoring which leads to these kinds of messes.
As far as who has claim, the person who hits a mob last has claim. If you swap people in an out of an alliance, the last person to hit whatver you're fighting retains claim regardless of hate. My guess is because this is how the claim system really works thats where the problem with the going yellow bug originates from. The game is busy swapping who has claim around in your alliance as you're doing various things and in a brief moment of "who has it" the game takes a dump and says "oh i dunno who has it, its up in the air" which results in people being able to steal it if they're spamming Dia or Voke. Yeah this is just a theory... The real answer to all the claim issues probably lies behind the green teleporters.
he actually still got his old char ^^ He sold his account to a friend and the friend gave him back i htink. money/gears are gone tho.
Faranim
05-14-2005, 01:38 PM
Out of Curiosity...
Where on the official website can I view these rules?
That is, rules about stealing, MPK, Holding etc. The GM's always claim that "these are the rules / policies" but I have never ever seen these rules made public.
Are they "unwritten" rules that only the GMs know? It's all very mysterious and I don't have a clear idea of what is and isn't considered MPK, Holding, Stealing, Griefing, etc.
Is there somewhere where these terms are clearly defined?
Is MPK only holding claim on a monster that is attacking another player? How about dieing next to a party with a large train behind you, is that MPK? Is Shadowbinding a mob (coincidentally on top of another player) MPK even though it could be an honest attempt to escape from the monster?
Can anyone lay out the terms very clearly so I know what I can / can't expect a GM to be able to do.
ibroyles
05-14-2005, 02:06 PM
Basically, I think this is how it works. The rules are defined by the ToS. The policies of what breaks a rule, and how its dealt with are the policies that only GMs would know. Most likely they get policy changes in memos, hence why we see the sudden change in GM policy on griefing tactics.
From a lot of chat logs, and a couple of personal experiences that I have seen, it seems the GMs will always stick by the ToS as their rule book. Their policies are subject to change at any time(apparantly) and we must simply watch for signs of this change. Like this post, or also the recent statement by SE that they will start enforcing punishments on griefing tactics also. Furthermore, although the rules are layed out in the ToS, it seems very broad. Definition of some of the terms in the ToS also seem subject to sudden "policy change."
EliteYuna
05-15-2005, 12:53 PM
My opinion on this, according to the Senior GM, Ash you were clearly breaking the rules once those gil sellers came, but you were unaware of it because the rules are not fully interpreted to their fullest content and explained thoroughly to you and everyone because of the way the ToS is written. Especially if GM Seniors and their bosses @ SquareEnix can modify rules and make new rules to adapt to what customers want, I feel they really should post any new "changes" and thoroughly explain them and current rules explicitly on their official website for FFXI. That way we can read anything new that they change or are doing that would affect us, like you never knew holding a sought out monster while there is other players there that want to kill it is against the rules, then you get jailed for it. You basically got jailed and warned for something that was unaware to you, and not made aware to you (the ToS is always going through changes and they arnt made aware to their customers, and they arnt explained at all except when you break it accidently and then are lectured by GMs..)
You basically got jailed and warned for something that was unaware to you, and not made aware to you (the ToS is always going through changes and they arnt made aware to their customers, and they arnt explained at all except when you break it accidently and then are lectured by GMs..)
Not true.
That's half the story...
The other half is he went unclaimed voke like the gilsellers and got caught in the act.
It's clear that doing that (read part about not being able to hold hate) made it into a mpk situation, which is what he REALLY got jailed for.
The holding part was the icing on the cake, for his explaination for "they did it to me first!" didn't cut it.
Originally posted by kuu
Dispite what newbies claim, monsters do not follow you all the way to zone. There are conditions on which a monster will loose your sent.
It was probably a crawler, as they are the easiest to go back to neutral. Just have them cross through water.
People do this/hate this in boyah all the time.
Orc rangers are also pretty easy to loose, I believe they are sight, and just lose them in the trees.
Um... have you never seen a THF train all of castle oztroja down to the entrance? lol...
Macht
05-16-2005, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by kuu
Dispite what newbies claim, monsters do not follow you all the way to zone. There are conditions on which a monster will loose your sent.
It was probably a crawler, as they are the easiest to go back to neutral. Just have them cross through water.
People do this/hate this in boyah all the time.
Orc rangers are also pretty easy to loose, I believe they are sight, and just lose them in the trees.
Good explination of how to loose a monster, but that is not what I ment at all. I ment monsters like an Orc ranger, remaining in it's sight, and still it stops as it's advancing and just turns around.
I've done that with Orcs, Goblins, Flies, Bees, Crawlers, Quadav, and Beetles. There is an area were I actually tested this too, in Palborough Mines. A spot were I always shot beetle from and have it come all the way around to me with all the other beetles along that path. I use to be able to do it and the beetle and it always came to me, after a few adjustments to my gear there were some setups that would cause the bettles to stop they never came to me but returned back to were they came from.
I know there's no water the beetles have to cross to reach me since they track by smell so why'd they suddenly stop now when I changed my gear? Obviously it's something with the gear or my Stats in some way it seems to me.
Pounce
05-16-2005, 12:19 PM
Um... have you never seen a THF train all of castle oztroja down to the entrance? lol...
ROFL, that happened the second attempt I made to get my Oz coffer key. My party just made it to the second floor when all of sudden we see one of the notorious gilseller DRGs running towards us with an army of Yagudo after him. He dies shortly after, the Yag aggro us, and most of us ended up getting slaughtered.
Um... have you never seen a THF train all of castle oztroja down to the entrance? lol...
And that means what?
There are CONDITIONS to loose monsters. It's like training crawlers in crawler's nest. Yes go find some water in nest, there's none. :mad: You would have to do something like bind, deoder, flee.
Yags I believe track by sight and are fairly fast runners. So it's fairly hard to loose them unless it's the mages. You can loose those if they spell you.
Another problem is Yags also LINK by sight(I think). That means you got a dasy train on you. One yag links with another yag etc as you flee. That doesn't mean you don't loose a couple, but just running is newbie mistake.
And speaking of newbies... what kinda thf would make a yag train in castle oj except to mpk? They have, HIDE, instant safety in castle oj.
I know there's no water the beetles have to cross to reach me since they track by smell so why'd they suddenly stop now when I changed my gear? Obviously it's something with the gear or my Stats in some way it seems to me.
That's weird...i have never heard of it before:confused:
Though...there is one kind of monster that will follow you to the ends of the earth...or until you zone, and those are the bst monsters :thumbsup:
Originally posted by kuu
And that means what?
There are CONDITIONS to loose monsters. It's like training crawlers in crawler's nest. Yes go find some water in nest, there's none. :mad: You would have to do something like bind, deoder, flee.
I think the best example of losing aggro is the infamous Yuhtunga Jungle Mandragora pulls. When I went through there with both DRK and THF, and I was puller, sometimes I would have to pull from a long distance to camp. I cant count how many times the mob would lose aggro, and just turn around and forget about me as I was nearing the camp spot. There is no logical reason for this, other than it got sick of chasing me and gave up. I pull with ranged attack, it turns red, follows me, then gives up for no reason. Even if I hit it with the ranged attack and it does damage, it still gives up. I think the game gives you a certain amount of time to engage a mob before it goes back to yellow.
Ziguld
05-17-2005, 10:14 AM
All hate built up with time depreciates with time. The further you are away from the mob the faster it says "screw this". In a place like Yuhtunga, most people take a shot, miss or do low damage and run a longways. The Mandy just goes "ok... screw this" sooner than say a Demon which can run laps around you. Certain things like Elementals will hunt you till you die or they die.
I just thought of another time a mob went yellow on me. In this case, me and a friend were camping Mysticmaker Proflbix in Labrynth of Onzozo. he wont the pull with Stun, but having lost to this guy before we decided to be cautious and buff up a bit first. Next thing we know, it's gone yellow and the JP players who lost pull, promptly stole it. Time from the original calim to it going yellow was less than 5 seconds. There has to be some definite rule as to how this works, just wish i knew what it was.
Pull Yuhtunga mandy and run, chases me for 20 seconds and goes yellow.
Claim NM and it goes yellow after 5 seconds while we just stand there casting buffs.
It makes no sense.
ibroyles
05-17-2005, 02:28 PM
Hilarious. I remember one time in Yuhtunga I was duoing(I was rng/war my friend was smn/whm) with bloody bolts. I pulled a mandy, as I got closer to camp I provoked it then kept running. By the time I get to camp(about 5 seconds later) I turned around and noticed the mandy had turned yellow and was walking away from me :confused: I had just voked it 5 seconds earlier lol
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