Military Forces of the Three Nations

[CRtwenty]

The Official Website has information regarding the military's of the three main nations (no information on the Ducal Guard, sadly) I simply crunched the numbers to get a rought estimate of the total soldiers of each nation...

Bastok
27,900 Infantry in the Republican Legion (Basically the National Guard, they're not career soldiers)
9,300 in the Bastokan Navy
4,000 Iron Musketeers (Career Soldiers)
2,400 Gold Musketeers (Spies/Special Ops)

Total: 43,600

San d'Oria
San d'Oria, with it's strict rules regarding military service (you can only become an officer if you are part of a noble family and whatnot) has a much smaller force.

7,600 Royal Knights
2,800 Temple Knights
100 Royal Guards (Elite Soliders)

Total, 10,400 Soldiers (In times of Crisis Adventurers are recruited as well, so this number could rise a bit)

Windurst
The Windurstian Military is strong, but most of it is due to it's cardian soldiers.

12,480 War Warlocks (9,600 of which are Cardians, meaning there are only 2,880 actual Combat Casters)
2,000 or so Mithra Mercenaries (the numbers vary, depending on the hunting season)
100 Patriarch Protectors (Elite Bodyguards for Officials)

Total 14,580 Soldiers, more can be hired, depending on how many Mithra are around

So, Bastok has a larger military then both San d'Oria, and Windurst combined, there is no information on the Ducal Guard, but I'd assume they are less then the Bastokan Military as well. Also, the estimate for the Mithra in Windurst is a guess, since there weren't any exact numbers. Simply that there are 4 Mercenary units, and the units are divided into groups of about 150 soldiers each. So I guessed.

[Jei]

Check out the history of Vanadiel and I see that bastokan cheated with fire arms xD
Less skill, more money

[Blood Red Poet]

Those 27,000 are not always there, don't forget :P.

Also, Windurst and San d'Oria have more skill in war. An Elvaan Royal Knight > a Hume Iron Muskeeter in 1v1 combat. A Tarutaru War Warlock > at least 20 infantry. Don't forget, if it ever came to war, Windurst and Kazham are allies :P. And with Kazham you probably get a lot of pirates.

[Blackjack]

It's true, the Republic has far more military potential than the other races especially coupled with it's technological advantage. On casual observation, Bastok is also more heavily fortified.

[Lahfiel]

Whatever happened to all of San d'Oria's knights? I remember in the intro when you make a new character they talk about heroes and stuff. Thinking about that is kinda sad, old times San d'Oria could've beat down any nation. Dragon King Ranperre could control the power of Lightbringer, and full kingdom of Tavnazia as allies. Just going off missions as far as I know though. ._.a If all else fails Prince Trion has a mullet.

[CRtwenty]

San d'Oria is stuck in their traditions. They aren't able to keep up with the times. That's why they're so weak right now.

[Buuyon]

Originally posted by Blood Red Poet
Those 27,000 are not always there, don't forget :P.

Also, Windurst and San d'Oria have more skill in war. An Elvaan Royal Knight > a Hume Iron Muskeeter in 1v1 combat. A Tarutaru War Warlock > at least 20 infantry. Don't forget, if it ever came to war, Windurst and Kazham are allies :P. And with Kazham you probably get a lot of pirates.

No way...an elvaan is all about honor...a hume will just shoot you...where the elvaan will try and use a blade, the hume will pull out their 12 guage slug shot and shoot the elvaan...and even if the elvaan used an arrow...a bullet is still stronger

Also if this is 20 ranged infantry VS one small taru...well yeah i would guess the odds would be againts the taru

Combat Caster Charlie starts casting *insert GA3 here*...

20 Random IMs ready Slug Shot/20 RGs ready Sidewinder...

But obvoiusly in a war situation, the tarus would have time to cast their spells, and not get shot to hell...

[sudo]

well in a real war situation the 20 rng's would be too busy fighting the all the cardians on their asses.

Least we not forget the taru mages would probably be well trained vs the regular hired infantry in terms of mage mayhem.

Invisible sneak attacks would be tarutaru tactics. As is sending in astral flow legions of summoned avatars.

3 Taru mages, count them, just 3. Destroyed the entire garrison of elvaans at Garliage Citadel. Check out the stone monument in sauromouge champlain.

If 1 elf > 1 musketeer

and 3 taru mages beat rough estimate of some at least 1 unit of elvaans in their own citadel... (1 company of infantry in US army tactics would be some 4 platoons of 40 men each which amounts to roughly some 160 soldiers. According to POL, since they are elvaans, it's 1 royal knight + 2-3 royal swordsmen, 4-5 squire + 60 footmen/archers = 70 ish.) So this is about 1:35 ratio.

Bastock has heavy advantage in numbers and technology. Coupled with their armored airship calvery, I'd say bastock really has got the advantage in a panzer blitz tactic vs either of the 2 nations.

In a long dragged out war, I can see windurst winning. Cardians can be replaced at lower cost than trained troops. Munitions cost money. Magic is essentially free, just need to sit down for a while.

Sandy would be probably the most likely to be beat up first with it's proximity to bastock. Invasion of windurst by airship forces would be both costly and hard to maintain.

Airships are expensive, illegal airships would be even rougher on the budget. Also mages can hit flying things with spells. Resupply with sea going barges would be very rough since norg and kazham would send pirate raids almost constantly. Jeuno most likely won't give airship support so bastock has to rely on other ways to resupply troops or take over jeuno first.

Either way, windurst would have time to prepare for long combat times and get spies and sabotage troops in place.

Bastock moving against sandoria would be the easiest course as troops can be marched straight through to ronfere over land in much shorter distances. Unification of the continent would benefit bastock more in terms of economic stability and future expansions as well.

Windurst most likely will help support sandoria in this scenario though. Sandy would be a useful buffer zone.

Even without sandoria support, invisible tarutaru mages blowing up all the munitions of bastock's armories with fire spells would make it a much tougher time for all 20 rng to have their slug shots ready to use due to ammunition shortages.

[sudo]

have you guys seen the damn tarutaru mages in ballesta?

Sleepga, sleep, bind, stoneskin, blink, stun, gravity.... gack, it's almost sick how well built rdm's are in ballesta.

I've been on teams of almost no mages vs a team with 4 rdm's. It was almost impossible to win or even kill someone on the other team.

Really really annoying to fight a bunch of mages. Much easier to fight gun rng and pld.

Since we have mannaquins now, the next generation of cardians could potentially come in models that look like different races. Throw on some extra armor and you have something out of terminator. Strab on some bombs on those mannaquin soldiers and sneak them into an enemy encampment or gathering spot. Encite confusion and mayhem the old fashioned way.

If 18 tarutaru blm's can win Divine Might in just 1 spell cast round... I think it wouldn't be far fetched to see simular results on battlefields.

[rarr]

Cardians are a bit of a limited resource, from what I understand - the mana globes that power them are a finite or at least slow-producing resource. Any Cardian destroyed in enemy territory where it would be unrecoverable would be a permanent loss to Windurst.

[CRtwenty]

Yea, Cardians aren't really mass produced. Each one has to be hand made in the Maneustary (I think that's it) and the materials to make them are rare. Remember how freaked out they get during the S.O.B. missions when they think one is missing?

Not to mention they're the least funded part of the Windurstian government, even were Windurst to step up funding there is still only a small amount of Taru's who know how to create these creatures...

So any Cardian losses may as well be considered permenent.

[Blood Red Poet]

Elvaan Royal Knight > Hume Iron Muskeeter. Gun or not. Knights ride chocobos into battle, very fast. They can live through a bullet. They also have the best tactics out of the three nations. San d'Oria can be compared to the South during the Amercian Civil War. Great generals, great terrain use, more skilled soldiers, but not many soldiers.

Bastok can't be matched in marine battle, but in land, both Windurst and San d'Oria would out due them.

[Pai Pai Master]

have you guys seen the damn tarutaru mages in ballesta?

Not to mention that during wartime, Windurst's most elite forces had the power of Summoning and other forbidden magicks, one of which being Fenrir.

[Jei]

read the actual history you'll see that Elvaan Knights were slaughtered by gun powers :rolleyes:

[Pounce]

Depends on how "real" you want to get with guns vs knights.

Guns were pretty much the downfall of the armored knight on horseback in real history. A peasant with only a little training could shoot down a knight who's been fighting for years.

[fuz]

Jei means, in the game. Bastok won several battles over sandy with the power of guns--and I might add that bastok has cannons as well. If you go up to the presidential area you can find a small battery of them overlooking the sea. If bastok's ships are armed with them, they can shell the other major cities into submission. Their land forces can simply hold a defensive position (bastok seems heavily fortified from land attack by sea and cliffs) while they let the marines dish out some damage by air and/or sea. Let's not forget that humes are supposed to be varied and adaptable. And a possible alliance with the norg pirates (mercenaries?) could have some implications. Us humes are very sneaky and evil... muahahaha...

Bastok is also constantly mining, so I'm sure they have plenty of raw materials for alchemy, goldsmithing, and blacksmithing. The low levels of morale that the bastokan forces (vounlentary) are made up with quality weapons and armor that are probably better than sandy. I'm sure everyone knows just how much gil you can pull in with such crafts, as well as the types of items they produce. Not to mention that they don't rely on crystals or magic for the production of things.

The bigger problem with bastok is that they are run by beaurocrats which makes everything slow and inefficient. Thankfully such governments rarely make bad decisions outright.

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I really think sandy is the weakest, with commands split by two brothers with deep personal flaws. As if that wasn't damming enough for a military, the knights probably lack sufficient magic capability, and henceforth, adaptability. Their distrust of others means they will not rely or hire external forces, nor will they deviate from traditional methods. A predicatable force is a defeated one.

The country also seems to be in an economic decline, and has been said many times in history, a strong economy means a strong army, while the opposite is also true.

But if everyone keep underestimating them, it could give them an advatage--provided they can stop agruing amongst themselves.

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Windust likely has the most outright power, and from what I remeber from speaking to NPCs, the richest nation. However, a lot of their money is tied up paying for the mithran mercenaries, as well as maintaining the large numbers of cardigans. Besides being namby-pamby goodie-goodies that tried to make a friendly agreement with the yaguado, the cardigans have been known to revolt against their creators. It is also unknown how adpet they are on large scale military actions as I don't recall seeing a general of some sort aside from that one mithra. Star is a hippie, shantoto is insane, adjuido is... well, cool.

Also it is unknown if windhurst alone can obtain any sort of heavy defense in armor as well as fortifications. The central crafts they posses don't have have that ability. They obviously have offensive power, but defense seems unusually lacking.

Windy is known to be adept, adaptable, powerful, and inteligent, so I'd gander they are in a tie with bastok for top military power, but windhurst seems more proficient in using just the right type of force, rather than humes which like to blow stuff up with a heavy hand. Besides, anyone who plays enough strategy games knows that offense wins the battles, not defense.

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*side note*

In real life it was well before the gun that made knights (or any heavy close range fighters) less than useful. Masses of spears and crossbows (easy to train, equip) turned knights into a small force that was only useful in tactical manuvers, but not up-front fighting. Knights are also expensive to maintain, and require a long time to train, so they have to be used wisely.

[Buuyon]

I still would think bastok would destroy Sandy, and have a close call or loss to windy...But if Bastok could buy over Norg to fight for them, that would help them greatly...The Norg summoners can summon a huuuuge amount of skeles and as you see, they dont rest at all...

Also Bastok has the better technoligy, whos to say they couldnt make something like an atomic bomb?

[sudo]

economically bastock is a nation that is starving to death but has lots of gold.

If you read the locations section on bastock life, they have to import all their foods.

Sandoria is the major food supplier in the continent. Windurst magically makes their own food.

Destroying and occupying windurst would mean your occupation forces would be starved to death since Mindartia is mostly arid badlands.

Resupply would be impossibly expensive by airship since jeuno probably embargo everyone. Sea resupply would be prone to pirate attacks since norg is semi-allianced with kazham and kazham and windurst are also allies.

----

As someone else pointed out eariler, the knights in sandoria are actually mostly self sufficient. The higher knights use their own relatives and recruit their own men so the burden on the government coffers is much more limited.

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Cardians may rise up against their masters but even the rogue cardians follow their leader (spoiler) Joker and Joker swore alliegence to the star onion brigade. Though he passed, his spirit still remains and I'm sure somehow he can still control the rogue cardians.

If windurst was attacked, the ace cardians would come and defend windurst not for the tarutaru creators but because it is their home land as well.

I'm sure if Heaven's tower got firebombed by armored airships or even punative chocobo riding elf calvery, the star sybil would call in the animaostary and just sic fenrir on everyone.

There are a lot of taru with insane powers. The guy from all the SMN af's and avatar fights can erase memories from even whole nations.

Dr. Shantototo can pretty much just curse anyone from whever and kill them that way too. No need to get messy with assasins.

The key point is that windurst is non-agro. The cowardice of the tarutaru really makes them isolationists. Great at defending but not prone to attacking.

Only time they would attack probably is to support sandoria to maintain a buffer state between them and the guns of bastock.

[JadeNightshade]

I see a few people mentioned this history of vana'diel so I'll pop in and offer my take ^^

basically..
each nation had it's own "era"..
the first nation to rise up was the taru/mithra federation. The didn't expand or anything cause the taru people were few in number and the mithra who joined them were only travelers from their homeland. So they just used magic and protected their borders from the Yaguado to the north.
It wasn't until the use of magic spread to other races that the tides turned. The elvaan tribes soon formed their first kingdom and with their skill of physical combat and now magical skills they took nearly all of the western continent and most of the east. The Taru were confined to the south and the only reason the elvaan didn't finish them off is the fact that they taru and yaguado kept eachother in check.. with one gone, the other could take the lands and build up a massive army to fight them. So they decided to build a series of defensive walls in Sauromugue Champaign.
Tavnazia which had just been settled (as in construction of the city was still underway) was in charge of the war while San d'Oria began having some political problems.
Basically what happened is that that elvaan pushed the yaguado and taru to form an alliance, and together they beat the hell outta the eastern defenses and pushed the elvaan out of the east. Turning all their attention to the east, the elvaan failed to realize a new kingdom forming to their south..
Bastok formed with the might of hume ingenuity and galka labor.
Before the San d'Orians could mass a force to deal with the new kingdom to the south, the attacks began. Bastok using it's newly created army made quick work of the outlying San d'Orian southern defenses. Meanwhile the Taru's and beastmen to the east launched assault upon assault on the empire's eastern boarder. Finally a massive assault on the defenses at Sauromogue by the taru broke through the lines of knights. Every last Elvaan fought bravely, every last Evlaan was killed. In the south the Bastokan's turned their attention to the key grounds of the Konschtat Highlands. If they could control these lands Bastok would be safe from counter attack. In a battle of epic nature, the San d'Orian knights and Bastokan army battled San D'oria made one last push under the leadership of their first female warrior Lady Eldie Mantiant. Bastok was forced from the Highlands, but at a horrible price. The legions of San D'oria had been all but wiped out.

So at this point..
windurst is weakened, but still has some army..
bastok retreated, but still had a big force
and sandy is pretty much out of troops.

Bastok developed muskets and such at this time and took bak the highlands with ease. The Taru and Elvaan had a truce and the bastok/elvaan wars continued to rage, but eventually in a twist of fate the best knight of sandoria bestrayed the king and helped his brother sign a truce with bastok. This would lead to a civil war in sandoria, which then cut it off from tavnazia..
which would soon develop it's own culture and customs.
By the time things settled down for sandy, the world was at a strange peace..

soooooooo
then we get round to the crystal war era, where Jeuno (a former bastok fishing town) now finds itself as the leading nation..
big war breaks out..
here's a quick breakdown of what happened to each nation (cause you all know the war :P)

Windy: They get their butts kicked by the first massive assault by the beastmen. The shadowlord is convinced they are the key to the war (with the magic and all) and he sends everything he has..
they nearly wipe out all the taru and get to the gates of windurst, when fenrir appears and drives back the monsters. The taru from this point on are pretty much out of the war except for soliders mixed in with other nations. The taru are stuck rebuilding and securing defenses..
this explains why they have some soldiers, but not alot..

Sandy: Sandoria is basically screws itself over in the war.
first they are under constant attack from the north, and the orcs even manage to camp in their back yard. They have to seal off the caves to keep them from coming, but in the process cut supply lines. Next the sandy royal family agrees to some scheme of the Archduke of Jueno, to use the power of the sword Lightbringer to draw the attention of his forces away from them and onto TAvnazia to buy them some time. The only problem is, no reinforcements show up and tavnazia along with most of what's left of the elvaan army is wiped out. (not by the monsters, but by the explosion which took place there..but explaining that is a big ol spoiler).

Bastok: most of the time bastok is just keeping the quadav at bay and holding them back into the swamp and under ground. Other than that they produce weapons for the other nations and not until the very end of the war when the other nations are out of soldiers are they called to the front to lead. Jeuno suggests a full assault on the shadowlord..and they easily win..
but then again, that's all part of the plan :P

strong bastok = strong jueno

anyway..
that's pretty much how things got the way they are over the last 500 or so years.

[Blackjack]

While Bastok is clearly the dominant force they are also facing the largest beastmen threat as well from the Antica Empire.

While the Antica weren't able to fully participate in the Great War due to their lack of navy, the fact that Korroloka Tunnel creates a land bridge to the Quon continent creates an avenue for invasion, not only of Quon but of Bastok itself.

Unlike the other beastmen, the Anticans retain an army in the hundreds of thousands and have shown to be expansionist by having colonized the Kuzotz island chain and wiped out the Galkan Empire.

While the other kingdoms face small-scale beastmen armies, Bastok is right on the doorstep of the largest known army on Vana'diel.

[Sadeira]

but bastok has cannons and with cannons, comes gun powder and with gun powder is the ability to develop explosives. if things got too desperate, bastok could opt to take down korroloka tunnel and flood it thus making bastok completely inaccessible to kuzotz. hopefully flooding it when there is a huge number of antica heading through the tunnel.

also, korroloka tunnel is not big enough for a marching army, especially with the antica. if the bastok commanders were clever, they could force bottlenecks into the anticas march and take down large numbers of antica with comparatively smaller bastokan forces. of course, bastok will have pre-lined the tunnel with explosives to ensure that the antica will NOT be able to come into bastok directly.

if korroloka goes down, the only other alternative for a march to quon from kuzotz would be kuftal tunnel. basically it would be impossible for bastok to flood kuftal tunnel since they don't have as much easy access as they do with korroloka. so from kuftal, the antica end up on vollbow. but the only way to get from vollbow to the rest of the quon continent would be through the gustav tunnel. here bastok may have an easy time. bastok could, again, set up bottlenecks inside the gustav tunnel. and if you've been to the tunnel, the numerous twists and turns in the tunnel would make it very difficult for a marching army and very easy for defenders to force bottlenecks in the antica. also, bastok can set up their navy at the mouth of the tunnel. if the bastokans lose ground all the way to valkurm, then bastok's navy can continulously shell the entrance of gustav tunnel thereby making it extremely difficult for the antica to exit the tunnel.

one thing to keep in mind, though, is the antican's exceptional skill in digging. if you've seen the quicksand caves then you know what i mean. those tunnels through the sand is no accident of nature. if bastok floods korroloka, then there's no where the antica could dig to get bastok, they would only be hitting water. but from kuftal to vollbow to gustav, they have tons of advantage here. since gustav tunnel is a tunner under land, unlike kuftal and korroloka, if bastok were to shell the entrance of valkurm, it would not prove to be a detriment to the antica. they would simply dig around the entrance and possible underneath the whole of valkurm and simply pop RIGHT BEHIND THEIR LINES. and decimate them from their subterranean lines.

i think bastok and sandy and the whole of quon continent is in more danger from kuftal and gustav than korroloka.

[Blood Red Poet]

Guys not realizing how powerful mythical armor is. Adaman > the strongest metal in our world. It would bounce of bullets like nothing, unless the Ranger has extremely good skill. Not your average Bastokian soldier.

We are not talking AK-47s, these are, Muskets. Being aimed by poorly trained men... miners, more than most uneducated.

Post-Windurst Mission Arch, Fenrir is there to kick some ass. His "2hr" could alone destroy a city, and it already has.

Another thing you guys must consider. Bastok's goverment sucks. Its run by the rich, and its mean to the poor. The rich would love to go war with the Beastmen. The poor die, but the demand for iron/gold/darksteel items go up. They get richer. On the other hand... Bastok makes all its money selling to other nations, and buying from other nations. If Bastok went to war, it would kill their encomny. No one wants to buy salt, if they already have salt(which Bastok is to vauble metals).

One last thing: Who would get involved in the war? Lets list some 'bad guys'.

Windurst: Reble Cardians, none otherwise but the Yagudo seek power.

San d'Oria: Orcs... and Orcs. Possibly, itself.

Bastok: Antica, Moblins, Sahagin, Pirates, and Quadavs. wow.

[Buuyon]

Blood red...muskets cant fire slug shots...their using weapons stronger then muskets...

You also forget those rebel Cardians are in their home...they are robots...it could turn out to be something like irobot...since the Cardians are in windurst...all it takes is one to convert them all to destroy half the city...then be down hundreds and hundreds of soilders inculding Cardians...

Where as Sand and Bastoks enemys need to traval to their city to destroy it, giving them more then enough time to get ready for an attack...

And for allys Sandy doesnt have anyone, Windy has Mahura(sp) and Kazham but are those really strong allys? Bastok could probally buy over Norg if needed...

And who cares about Adaman? Its to expensive to equip all your army with...

[Rodin]

Watch the opening movie, the taru's look like they're casting freeze or something of the sort. Look at how many beastmen they take out. It's scary O_O; So I'd say windurst has a hidden advantage and are overlooked.

[Ivadell]

Bastok has Cid. . . .no other country can compete.

[Cavalier]

Originally posted by Ivadell
Bastok has Cid. . . .no other country can compete.

PWNED!!!11


j/k. seriously though, as Buuyon said, it's be very expensive to outfit a squad, let alone an army with adaman. and unless there's some adaman mine I don't know of, I was under the impression that it was a fairly rare metal. But even so, I'm sure it faces the same problem RL body armor does - blunt force trauma. That's nice, that adaman chest piece stopped 5 consecutive shots, but the mush that was your organs isn't gonna help much.

[Blood Red Poet]

Cardians are not like Irobot. Only the old Cardians rebeled, the ones in the war. Bastok are not allies with Norg, if anything, foes. Bastok navy is constantly being attacked by pirates. Guess where those pirates hang out... Norg.

San d'Oria knights are very well trained. Just one of them in a suit of Adaman, riding a chocobo, could probably take out countless soldiers. That one knight could be leading some troops.

Cid is great and all, but if he got in the way of the Society, they would take him out.

Adventurers > Bastokian soldiers, Adventurers can do Slug Shot, they can't.

[kazuri]

If only Windurst's population was big and they had more trained War Warlock's :(

[sudo]

and by the way, the rebel cardians don't want to destroy windurst. They just don't want to be controlled.

In the storyline they got Joker to be their leader and Joker is friendly towards windurst. Hell, he's even a star onion brigade member.

If anything, the ace cardians would rise up to protect windurst if anyone tried to attack. They would act completely independently of the regular army but you know what? Ace cardians are strong mofos >.<

[cloudedge]

A lot of people mention how strong Windurst is because of the power of magic and summoning.. unfortunately as costless as it seems.. there's a big draw back on spamming AoE/AM magic... the size of Windy's army is small and declining.. and summoning magic is forbidden by Star Sybil herself.. i bet right now there is only a handful of people that can smn Fenrir... even though the "2hr" of Fenrir can wipe out a city... as long as the other force don't stay concentrated.. the damage the opponent suffer from Fenrir can be kept to minimum... (and then they have 2hrs of on slaught)

In the opening... u see the tarutaru all casting spell droping metero on the opponet force... but when the opponent force is large enough that their AoE does not kill most of them off in the first 2 run... all the mages will be out of mana... (thus u see the cute taru panic scene after lol) and it will take 2-3mins before they can restore they man back... meanwhile the opponent can already make gain and break the gate... (consider there's few land unit from windy - mostly rng mithras and mages) It's not like Windy is powerless in a war.. they just need a lot of co-ordination and tactics to utilize their strong (but mana demanding) offense

[Buuyon]

Originally posted by Blood Red Poet
Cardians are not like Irobot. Only the old Cardians rebeled, the ones in the war. Bastok are not allies with Norg, if anything, foes. Bastok navy is constantly being attacked by pirates. Guess where those pirates hang out... Norg.

San d'Oria knights are very well trained. Just one of them in a suit of Adaman, riding a chocobo, could probably take out countless soldiers. That one knight could be leading some troops.

Cid is great and all, but if he got in the way of the Society, they would take him out.

Adventurers > Bastokian soldiers, Adventurers can do Slug Shot, they can't.

And Zeid alone could take out half the Sandorian army...

That adaman armor aint lookin so great now...

Any ways, the Ace Cardians are the ones that teach the cardians right and wrong, they could teach them wrong is right and right is wrong...

And sure bastok soldiers can do slug shot...your saying out of the 40,000 troops not one of them will have any skill with a gun? Even if they arent they best with a gun, i bet they could still hit the choco...

[Blackjack]

I'm not so certain Sadeira. The key to Korroloka is that its easily accesible and provides fast access from both Eastern and Western Altepa right into the Bastok Mines district.

Volbow on the other hand would take much longer since the Anticans would likely colonize the region first before moving onwards. Not to mention that any sizeable army moving that long a distance would be known well in advance.

It would only take a few hundred Antica or if the Anticans were strict on formations, a single legion, to maintain control of the Zerhun Mines. With the lack of any morale and the advantage of numbers the Anticans would simply overwhelm any immediate defenses that would have been hastily thrown up. The lack of any already existing emplacents pretty much shows Bastoks ill-preparedness for this event.

In order to blow up a tunnel, one has to cart the gunpowder there in the first place and a quick initial strike backed up with the massive reserves would make that scenario impossible. To the Anticans the complexity of the tactic is simply going to boil down to throwing as many Anticans as possible through the line of least resistance as fast as possible.

The key to the Korroloka access is that it bypasses Bastoks defenses entirely and negates any long-range bombardment tactics.

The real advantage the Antica currently have is the numbers and the fact that their abilities are really a pain to combat. Over time however, numbers become meaningless as technology builds even faster firing weapons. Bastok isn't all that far away from building cartridge based weaponry and once they create Vana'diel variants of the repeating rifle, gatling gung, and even the machine gun, things are going to go badly for everyone else.

[Blackjack]

Originally posted by Blood Red Poet


One last thing: Who would get involved in the war? Lets list some 'bad guys'.

Windurst: Reble Cardians, none otherwise but the Yagudo seek power.

San d'Oria: Orcs... and Orcs. Possibly, itself.

Bastok: Antica, Moblins, Sahagin, Pirates, and Quadavs. wow.

None of the other Beastmen save for the Anticans are really a threat. Most have had their forces split across various regions of the known world, and they did lose the Great War.

Quadav, Moblins and even the Sahagin have an isolationist nature. The Goblins are nomadic and thrive on commerce with everyone. The Orcs are culturaly war-like so that always means they're a threat, but it shouldn't be too much of a problem except for the fact that Sandoria seemingly lets them build catapults on Horlais that overlook Ronfaure...

The Yagudo is Windursts main problem and that hazard is unknown. The Yagudo appear to be more civilised than the others but their theocratic nature leaves a lot of room for zealotry.

[DM337]

The game points more to norg being allied with Bastok than with Windurst, if you pay attention. Firstly, the Bastok and Norg Auction Houses are linked. Would that indicate an alliance? Who knows, but Kazham and Windurst have their AHs linked, and they are allies. Also, one of the Bastok Rank Missions involves you being sent on a diplomatic mission to Norg to talk to Gilgamesh.

Elvaan Knights being skilled means little on a battlefield, sad as it might sound. Bastok has guns and cannons, Windurst has magic. None of the San d'Orian Knights wear Adaman armor, all the Evaaln NPCs are wearing either Royal Knight gear or that big white armor. Adaman is typified by its purple/blueish color.

Airships. As of right now, only Jeuno and Bastok has access to them. Jeuno runs the airship service and is neutral. Cid invented airships, and he created the first armed airship for combat. San d'Oria has no way to defend against an aerial attack, just like how they were decimated by Bastok's superior technology in the battle of Konstacht in the Great War.

Windurst and Bastok is a hard fight to call. On one hand, Windy has powerful magic and limited summoning powers. on the other hand, Bastok has superior numbers, technology, air force, and a better navy. If Bastok can corner Windurst's limted numbers within the city and begin to shell them, they'd have a fair chance of winning. Spreading out forces would alleviate the amount of losses suffered by magic, and Bastok could win by sheer number alone.

[fuz]

Bastok has the advantage, if sound strategy is applied. The varried forces and sheer number gives them a certain flexability--whether or not it can be used well is another question.

The common beastmen are not seemingly a threat to any of the nations, as in missions you see them being dealt with as an annoyance with ease. Most others are isolationists and do not fight for anyone unless forced. Anitcans may be a threat, but they don't show any sophistocation in technology. Thy don't even build supported caves (the ruins are galkan)--which means I doubt they can tunnel underwater. Even the giants in quifim were able to build ships to get there, and they're already pretty dull.

Not to mention, you can just sit at the entrance of a tunnel with some guns a blast anything that pops out. Anyone who's played a FPS knows being stuck in a hallway with no cover with someone shooting at you produces a low chance of survival. Worse yet is getting hit by some melee attack when you round a corner. For that reason, bastok is extremely easy to defend. Heck, they can pop some cannons in N gusts by the waterfall and shoot anyone that comes in from the highlands below, if they can even make it past the high ground advantage the bastokan side has, and the inevitable traps they can place in the narrow canyons.

[CarbonFibre]

Originally posted by fuz
Even the giants in quifim were able to build ships to get there, and they're already pretty dull.
I haven't done many missions, so this may be why I don't know about this. Where do you find out the above? I basically know at least a little background on all the Beastmen except for them.

[fuz]

It was some npc in jeuno. I just ran around taking to npcs and stuff, which happens when I'm trying to finish a quest and can't seem to find the correct npc.

I certainly remember it's not from a mission. I got into some talk about the history of qufim.

In the great war, the giants built ships to invade vanadiel, i'm not sure if it was the orcs, shadowlord or demons that made them do it; but after the war, not all of them escaped back to their homeland so they took up residence in delkfut's tower.

[JadeNightshade]

I said it before and I'll say it again..
as long as Cid is valuable to Jeuno, the Duchy will never let Bastok fall.
the Archduke, the society, and every other "bad guy" needs Cid to use link the old and new technology..
until they find someone more valuable, Bastok will always be the favored nation..

besides, just in general, Bastok is the "it" country now..
both Windurst and Sandy had their moments in history..
it just happens at the the present time, Bastok is the top dog.

[lionx]

Originally posted by JadeNightshade
I said it before and I'll say it again..
as long as Cid is valuable to Jeuno, the Duchy will never let Bastok fall.
the Archduke, the society, and every other "bad guy" needs Cid to use link the old and new technology..
until they find someone more valuable, Bastok will always be the favored nation..

besides, just in general, Bastok is the "it" country now..
both Windurst and Sandy had their moments in history..
it just happens at the the present time, Bastok is the top dog.

Conquest in many servers, however does not indicate that O_O At least not on midgard for the most part :x

[Buuyon]

Originally posted by lionx
Conquest in many servers, however does not indicate that O_O At least not on midgard for the most part :x
I dont think we are talking about conquest...wich on my server has bastok in lead...

[lionx]

Yeah i know, i am just saying that out for fun.

For the most part i dont see why there would be another war unless one nation started it, in which i guess Jeuno will have to say you cannot because its a violation of treaty..and might bring the other two into alliance..which is kinda dumb oO I feel that if you try to make war, you war with the world.

[sudo]

I think people are way overestimating the power of guns in the game world of today.

Sure bastock may invent new thingies in the future to make guns more deadly

But what's to say windurst won't have invented some mind control gas in the mean time?

So bastock goes and invents the gas masks or buys them off goblins

then windurst invents giant super plant monsters, then bastock invents the armored mobile gundam suits, sandoria invents super knights with psysionic powers and rides to battle on vrtra type wyrvens etc etc.

the end less speculation continues, basically we can make a case how any nation can come up with even more super technology or magic or huges beasts of burden.

But if we go by game mechanics of today, What's in Vanadiel of right now assuming that you passed all 3 nation rank 10 missions, done all of zilart, got though to al'taieu.

Armored airships: There's only like 5 of them total in the world. You don't have an armada capable of destroying armies yet. They are a nusience and can perform special tactics but you aren't going to be able to use them for much more than that.

And by the way, jeuno controls most of the armored ones too. Bastock has like 1 and it was broken the last time cid tried to send ppl over to Al'tieu before the patch.


Infantry with guns: Guns are undoubtable very powerful. Guns are also very expensive. Bastock uses a lot of cheap soldiers. It's very unlikely every single last one of them has a high quality rifle.

If you assume that only iron musketeers get the iron musketeer lv of guns, that basically only leaves like platoon guns and a few other ninja guns available to the bastock forces in majoirty.

The lower lv of antican are like lv 36. It is not possible to 1 shot even the lowest lv of antican even with the strongest gun in the game.

You can of course sidewinder or slug shot one to death. Eagle eye shot one to death works too but single shot wise, You can't kill 1 antican with 1 shot even if they had no cover and were in a cooridor.

The current guns of vanadiel are also not very fast loading. They are more like muskets of the civil war or american revolution.

1 guy camping a hallway can't hold off 3-4 ants rushing. you might be able to bring one or 2 down but the others will kill you with melee and thrown spike balls.

If just 1 antican breaks though, he can sand trap / petrify everyone around so defencive lines have to never let a single one though or it could prove diasterous.

Magic:

Magic like meteor seem to take multiple mages to cast at the same time i.e. in the opening movie. We can't do this as adventurers but NPC's have certainly been hinted as being able to do these things. Also carbuncle has meteor.

But yes, magic is limited by MP. Taru mages are not invincible. And for the sake of game mechanics it wouldn't be possible to flood a field or make gaping holes in the ground to suck infantry down to their deaths.

Mages can indeed do a lot of damage none the less though. And yes, if you have enough forces, you can rush a mage till they run out of mp or casting time and kill them.

So an army of mages may destroy more than 1/2 of bastok forces before they ever get to the gates of windurst but bastock probably has enough numbers to throw at windurst if they got the troops all there.

Unfortunately, windurst mages would no doubt attack bastock forces en mass in fields leading up to windurst and warp home as harassing tactics and also kill a lot of troops.

If windurst uses some stragety instead of all waiting in windurst walls, it is very likely windurst can defeat all the infantry of bastok.

However if it was like the situation in the movie and there were only a handfull of mages left, then I'd have to say bastok would win too.

Really I think it comes down to:

#1 if bastok can get forces within striking distance of windurst without being attacked/harassed/destroyed/detected

and

#2 if windurst chooses to attack bastok troops on the move or sit at home and all wait for bastok to arrive at their foot steps.


People have also suggested a sea side invasion of windurst.

I have to say that would be a bad idea since troop carriers make everone bunch up. AoE spells would tear the infantry apart since they are packed together like sardines on a ship.

The area surrounding windurst are all cliffs making them impossible to land troops. Port windurst has the war warlock school right there. They even have people overlooking the sea practicing 24 hrs a day. Sneaking in troops without catastrophic losses seem unlikely.

Best bastok can do is to take over the port at mahura and march against windurst which undoubtably would alert windurst and invite all sorts of attacks before they ever reach windurst.

[sudo]

For people who have never seen massed infantry vs an avatar before:


http://www.geocities.com/blk_halos/pictures/dynamis1.gif


http://www.geocities.com/blk_halos/pictures/dynamis2.jpg

[Pounce]

It depends just how much of the actual game mechanics apply to a "real" Vanadiel.

Actual in-game mechanics rarely reflects the "reality" (for lack of a better term) of a game that is depicted in cutscenes, etc.

If you really want to strictly adhere to game mechanics, one could argue that almost every adventurer out there is a pansy wimp that gets owned by crabs and bunnies.

[fuz]

I don't think adventurer experiences can really translate into NPC play. For example maat, with an apparent uncapped subjob, ajido with unknown magic, or all the special armors and weapons. The powers and weaknesses of NPCs are intangible yet may greatly influence a war.

No to mention that it is unknown if such avatar power can actually be controlled. As is for most things you have to give up one thing to gain another--to get such magic, what will you have to sacrifice? Perhaps the majority of tarus will have to sacrifice themselves to get it, which asks the question--what is the point of winning if you're dead like the person who summoned fenrir?

And thinking too far into the future is out of scope, we're discussing what would happen now, or in very short term what might happen should they go to war. The futher you think, the less accurate your predictions will be.

And if anything the bastokan alchemists have been dabbling with artificial life creations, not giant robots. The bugbears are supposedly created with the help of bastokan knowlege stolen by the moblins. (Not unlike fullmetal alchemist, also conveniently made by SE.) Then again, they can probably already make bombs, weapons (like the ones at the crags), maybe dolls and pots.

An unchecked airship raining down atillery with impunity will eventually destroy a city, or army. I mean, look at the size of the world in vanadiel, it's not big. The V1 and V2 rocket attacks by germany vs. england were sparse, but they created mass havoc and plenty of destruction as they were impossible to shoot down with regularity till later in the war. A building destroyed and the area set ablaze every day will take it's toll. An obvious morale destroyer since nowhere is safe, and it can't be gotten rid of--everyone lives in fear. Dropping poison gas on enemies by airship or artillery is probably not beyond bastok either.

Also just how low level the quality of bastokan sodiers are is unknown. They still defeated the highly trained sandiorians in every recent battle--so either their forces are good, or their tactics are. What is almost certain is that the level of their equipment is high. Just about all nations make use of bastokan forged weaopns and armor. That white plate that all the gaurds in jeuno use, even trion in sandy, is iron musketeer armor. The largest forge and materials research is right in bastok, ehanced further by alchemic additions like bloody weapons and fire enhanced swords. Cid is even researching mass production of cerment in replacement of metals for arms and armor. That's like having affordable armor and weapons for your army just a step below adaman in quality. Very intimidating on a mass scale should it happen.

With the number of soldiers that bastok has, they don't need just 1 person guarding an entrance, they can have a whole alliance waiting and ready. Yo don't need to 1 shot anything when you have a dozen barrels pointed at one target. And hey, with widescan, you can see them comming. :P

Even though bastok has a large army with varying equipment, I'd bet that they have more well equiped (for melee at least) personel than the other nations. As time goes on, they have many projects that will continue to increase the warring power of bastok. I don't know of any other nation that is so agressive in the pursuit of military power--with no qualms about the repricussions. (Just like the good old USA! ;>.>)

Windhurst won't do anything unless backed into a corner (otherwise just maintain the status quo), sandy is still trying to get back to even standing and recover from losses, leaving bastok as the only nation going forward.

If not for the food problem, bastok would not have any major weaknesses.

[Blood Red Poet]

Also just how low level the quality of bastokan sodiers are is unknown. They still defeated the highly trained sandiorians in every recent battle--so either their forces are good, or their tactics are.

Actually Bastok lost the final battle of the San d'Orian vs Bastok war. They were pushed back to Konschatt Highlands, then pushed back some more. San d'Orian suffered an icredible lost of life during the battle, but they won. The reason they suffered so much is because they underestimated gun powder and brute force of the Galkas. It was then both of the San d'Orian princes began disagreeing about peace and war with Bastok. This caused the Civil War, ending the war with Bastok. San d'Orian forces were not overpowered, but simply badly damaged.

Another thing, i'd like to correct. Bastok only has two cannons. Both located on the top of the Metalworks district.

[CRtwenty]

But pride comes before the fall.
The nation of Bastok, founded by the Hume and Galka races, lay on the southern edge of the Quon continent. Fortified by the growing economic and intelligence-gathering abilities of the Hume race, Bastokan forces crushed the elite San d'Orian knights at the Second Battle of Konschtat. Cutting-edge firearms technology turned the tide of battle and cemented victory for the people of Bastok. This humiliating defeat sent the Kingdom of San d'Oria into an age of internal turmoil and civil war. Piece by piece, territories that the Elvaan had conquered slipped from their grasps.

San d'Oria lost the second battle of konschtat... badly, it was basically legions of San d'Orian Knights marching directly into Bastok's line of fire... it ended in a rout with the San d'Orian soldiers running off the battlefield. Also Bastok has more then two cannons, they just have two mounted on the metalworks, I'd imagine they also have cannons on their naval vessals, and probably in defensive positions around the Gustaberg Region.

[Langolier]

Originally posted by sudo
I think people are way overestimating the power of guns in the game world of today.

Sure bastock may invent new thingies in the future to make guns more deadly

But what's to say windurst won't have invented some mind control gas in the mean time?

So bastock goes and invents the gas masks or buys them off goblins

then windurst invents giant super plant monsters, then bastock invents the armored mobile gundam suits, sandoria invents super knights with psysionic powers and rides to battle on vrtra type wyrvens etc etc.



...but we can predict what Bastok will invent in the near future with reasonable accuracy because Bastok, and to a lesser extend San d'Oria, is strongly based on very real historical nations. Bastok uses science, we have science. Of-course there will be difference because in the world of Vana d'Iel we have magic, but it's not out of line to predict certain weapons such as Machine Guns, Rockets, Aircraft, Mustard Gas... ect...

Also, Bastok can lessen it's food problem by claiming Konschtat and using all that grain. I'm pretty sure Bastok at least produces popottoes on its own. If it produced nothing it would never have been able to spring up in the first place.

Everyone keeps accusing Bastokan soldiers of being un-trained weaklings... that isn't the case though. At the very least, they probably spend a few weeks learning to shoot and learning to follow orders and such. How long is boot camp for a Marine? About six weeks? They can shoot well, and they are efficient soldiers.

It doesn't matter that your Elvaan Knight or Archer has trained his whole life... he's still gonna get picked of long before he even gets close to the Bastokan line.

If I were fighting San d'Oria on an open field, which would likely happen at least in the beggining, I would use the combined tactics of the British and Colonials durring the American War of Independence. I'd have my troops line up in rows: the first row fires, and then kneels, and the second row steps forward, fires, and such until the first row is at the front again. With this tactic, even with muskets, the bullets never stop. Any army in front of them is going to be annhilated. Of-course, backing them up would be cannons of varrying range, and armored Galka and Hume ready to charge if the need arised.

Lastly, common sense dictates that Bastok is going to have at least some trained sharp shooters. These people can be used to destroy moral by picking off mounted Knights and Officers.

Now as for Windurst... Windurst is very tricky and I don't think historical tactics would be as effective. It's very hard to define how powerful magic would be in the "real" Vana D'iel since we really have no basis for logical comparison, as we do Bastok and their technology.

About the Antica: Adventurers are going to notice a huge army of Antica moving towards the tunnel, so I'm sure Bastok could manage to blast it shut, at the least. If not... Bastok looses... that simple. Though I wonder if the Antica would ever attack at all. Didn't their civilization exist long before the Galka? Only it was 'asleep'?

[sudo]

I totally agree with you. Bastok will eventually raise the technological cycle to gatling guns etc.

It is indeed not far fetched.


However, play though the windurst missions, and the smn AF quests to see how I am getting my predictions from. We may have a real world model of bastok's rise to technology but the good storyboard writers at SE have already put in where windurst can go with things.

I'm not just being facious and making up things about windurst just to be mean to bastok. These are real events in the game.


Basically if you choose to read the spoiler below, I hope you can agree that I'm not making up the whole "mind control" thing.

The giant mutant hentai monster thing might be kind of far off but if you get some history of windurst from the NPC's in windurst waters and walls and various quests there, The whole school of Rhinocery is basically responsible for making new life forms.

They are basically practicing basic mendellian genetics mixed with magic to great effect and making new life forms like the street lamps. Windurst plants naturally glow to act as street lamps. Convenient for the tarutaru who may find it too much of a challenge to change lightbulbs XD.

It's again, not a very far flung prediction to see where windurst can go with their genetic manipulations.

Maybe they'll be up to cloning soon >.>? I mean that's where we are headed today in the bio medical community with stem cell research and what not. If the technology kept pace, maybe 40 years after bastok invents the easy to operate AK-47 equivilant, windurst may conceabibly roll out with more genetically modified beings.

Who knows, magic + life in past FF games produced characters like Terra. Maybe we can get some high powered espers?



(spoiler)






















Windurst already have mages that can erase whole nation's memories. In fact the taru that you see when you beat an avatar and collect your prize is that mage.

He erases your memories and steals a part of the power you gained from the avatar. He erased himself from the memories of everyone in windurst and only people in his class were able to resist him.

By the end of windurst R10, Fenrir has also returned to the horobuto ruins and blesses windurst with his protection. So yes, fenrir is a threat to anyone trying to attack Windurst.

Another very neat tacitc to spells uses is that you see through the cutscenes on windurst Rank 8 mission.

Joker teleported/escaped all of the star sybil's mithra body guards in 1 spell with like super fast cast or chainspell or something. Instantly rendering them out of area and unable to stop him or protect the star sybil.

I'm sure we all wish we can D2 or escape other parties around us and apparently NPC's can do so.

It would be very funny to see a bunch of taru mages just keep teleporting bastok troops back to bastok after the government spent so much money to ship them over there.

Very effective, 100% not based on defence or armor rating. You can simply warp whole sections of someone's army till only their support persons are left.

Instead of destroying the cannons, just warp the cannon crews home and steal their stuff.

Not killing bastok forces might be even more of a hassle for bastok since living soldiers still need to be fed. And while bastok DOES, I must have said this like 4-5 times between here and alla, that bastok DOES make food.

My point the whole time is that bastok doesn't make ENOUGH food. It's like saying your body needs 2000 calories a day to live. Bastok gives you 1000 calories because it doesn't have enough food.

Did bastok give you food? yes, was it enough? Not for the long run. Will you die of starvation? Yes, eventually if you don't find more food.

If bastok wins fast, then great. They can secure new sources of food and stave off economic collapse. If bastok fights a dragged out prolonged war, it's populations will starve. War is expensive,
Espically if your troops require a lot of expensive munitions and equipment.

Look at america today, we're spending like 200 million dollars a day in Iraq. It's already very very unpopular and our daily lives aren't affected by much because food prices and other cost of living is still fine since america MAKES the bulk of the world's food supply. If we had to import our food or there wasn't enough due to war rationing, I bet a lot more americans at home would be anti-war activists espically if the enemy was not an agressive race threatening our destruction. I mean if the war in iraq was purely to get money, and it cost 200 million a day, who would go to war???

If america suddenly decided to cease all exports of food to china, China would literally starve it self to death in a matter of months.

Of course this would piss china off to no ends and we can be looking at WW3. If china can't beat the US militaristically, it would have to attack weaker nations next to it and steal their food supplies.

If there was nothing to be found either because the enemy is too determined and can't be beaten quickly enough, or maybe because you strip mined the whole of your landscapes *gustaberg*, You don't have much of option other than face the fact that some people in your country are going to starve. And unless you can enforce the threat of something worse than starvation on your population, then the government will basically fail.


So ya, bastok makes food. Not enough of it. Prolonged war? not a good idea and not profitable. Espically if it was a war of conquest to get rich in the first place which seems like the most logical reason bastok would go to war.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually as an interesting aside, the US and NATO countries decided that it was more cost effective to use the 5.56 mm ball ammunition instead of fancy hollow points of the soviet 7.62 x 54.

Besides some of the more obvious reasons that using different ammunition than the enemy would make it more useless to the enemy to capture your equipment should you abbandon it, but also because the 5.56 rounds tended to Wound people more instead of out right killing them.

The soviet 7.62 was designed for maximum stopping power and the ability to kill people when it hit them.

The logic behind wounding instead of killing comes into play when you look at a mass casuality scenario.

So your unit of 100 men had 14 ppl killed in the last gun fight. And the rest all emerged unscathed cept for some minor nicks and scratches. The effective fighting power of that unit is now 86 men strong.

Alternatively

So your unit of 100 men had 4 ppl killed but 10 badly wounded in the last gun fight cause they got shot but didn't die. The rest of the men all emerged unscathed cept for some minor nicks and scratches. The effective fighting power of that unit is not 96 or even 86.

The united states and NATO decided that no army would willingly abandon their wounded soldiers (not always a true assumption but such attitudes towards soldiers can be capitalized on by psy ops).

To take care of a wounded soldier, you may need as many as 2-3 men just to take care of 1 wounded. Unless you can find a handy wheelbarrel, it's usually 2 person carry litters. One person has to carry more ammo and the wounded guy's gear as well.

For every wounded you effectively took out 2-3 other guys cause they have to take care of him. The effective fighting power of that unit has become basically 2x10 = 20 +10 +4 = 34 people out of the fight. Fighting strength till wounded can be evacuated to the rear and reinforcements arrive = 66 men.

How's this work with windurst? If you don't kill bastok troops but just warp them home, you make it so there would be more mouths to feed. I bet people can make a case of how brutal they will be etc so I'm assuming that bastok won't even bother with trying to save wounded to increase their overall fighting strength.

But even the most brutal of bastok's projections, you probably won't kill your own healthy troops that just need a ride back to windurst but require more supplies over the long haul because there aren't any casualties to reduce the amount of materials needed to maintain fighting strength.

The longer the war, the more likely bastok will loose too much money to make it worth their while so hence a political victory for windurst can be gained. Sorta like US in vietnam. Militaristically we had all the victories. But politically we lost because our goal was not achieved.

And fundamentally, the point of wars is to settle disputes between politicans and to achieve a preset political goal. This is the fundamentals of war taught to ever officer in the military today.

And why bastok can't win politically against windurst? Simple. Windurst supports itself magically.
Bastok requires fertil soil and lands to grow food to support it's one weak spot, the agracultural factor.

The Eastern continant where windurst sits on is mostly arid badlands. Nothing will grow out there. Taru make their food magically. If the taru all flee and don't cooperate with bastok occupation troops but just running away (all taru mages are really good at this) They can turn windurst into a basic ghost town till bastok sees nothing of value left and leaves.

Then the taru can move back in and re magic up their town once again. And for all their troubles bastok just wasted a lot of money and expenses for not much gain.

[cloudedge]

And why bastok can't win politically against windurst? Simple. Windurst supports itself magically.

interesting... but what if Bastok is actually after Windurst's technology/ability to make food magically? I mean, that's even a bigger asset to them than just fertile land. To settle in a newly conquered land, you need to move your people to the settlement (most likely galka) and then place troops to guard it. But to have the ability to make food magically, well u can just do that in ur own secured territory!

And of course, Windurst have all sorts of tricks up their sleeves, that I bet even Cid would love to have some of the top mages to work under him to fuse science and magic together to create new technology (in a more scientific approach...)

What I think Bastok should desire from Windurst is not it's natrual resource, but it's knowledge about magic and summoning.

[Langolier]

I don't see Bastok using military force against Windurst... they'd use something else.

Though they might want Elshimo, Konschtat, and La' Thiene.

Elshimo I think... would be difficult. However Konschtat would be easy, and La' Thiene would be possible.

The only real reason I see anyone wanting to go to war with Windurst is simply because of those powerful mages. I don't know about you, but I would not feel safe knowing there was someone there who could kill me no matter where I was if they felt like it. I would start thinking of a way to kill them first. Whether they seem aggressive or not.

[Blackjack]

Windurst is definitely a wildcard since magic and magical tactics are so hard to guage. However we do know that the Yagudo themselves were fairly close to bringing down Windurst were it not for the summoning of Fenrir.

It stands to reason that with a Windurstian force that was decimated after the Great War versus a much larger and technologically superior force like the Republic, would face more probable defeat.

But with magic being a volatile 'out of this world' variable we can't know for certain.

[sudo]

actually that's another misnomer blackjack

Windurst was overrun only by the combined might of all of the shadowlord's legions and not just a single yagudo attack.

The star Sybil of the past read the future and knew that it was only going to be possible to save windurst by making fenrir go on their side so she had the school of animaostery (the secret ministry) bind fenrir to windurst's will.

There wasn't enough troops to stop that many beastmen which I assume is going to be a larger force and probably harder to kill than normal infantry.

So windurst had to roll out fenrir wich is the only reason they survived.

Ya I agree, it would be a good boon if bastok can capture the windurst magic food making techniques.

Stealing magic however is going to be a far harder task than simply destroying windurst and brutally subjecting it's population.

All the bastok strageties I've seen so far have all been about firebombing the civilian populations into submition and or shooting 40,000 bullets at mages till they are all dead. I think it would have to be something more devious that bastok will require to actually capture mages alive.

It's hard to capture mages with guns w/o killing them. If they warp, you got nothing. If you shoot, probably gonna kill them. Taru's heads are so big that most likely it's gonna be a headshot.
Aim for our kneecaps? lol I don't even see us with any.

Besides, I think the star sybil can see that comming and perhaps even go as far as evacuate windurst so bastok can't get a hold of their magic. All the while using Dr. Shantototo and sabatoge to annoy bastok on their home front and forcing them to withdraw troops or simply find anti-windurst leaders and just have dr. shantototo kill them with curses from far far away.

Or heck, just make everyone in bastok forget what a windurst was. Just erase their memories O_O!

[Langolier]

Once I get rank 10 I'm gonna have to play the Windurst Missions because if these Taru Mages are so powerful, then I find it hard to believe they haven't already taken over the world. They have no reason not to. It's like the modern world with Nukes... what's the reason we haven't used them? ...because we fear retaliation, yet Windurst doesn't seem to have anything to fear. If they are this powerful, why did the Crystal War even happen? Why weren't the Beastmen armies destroyed long before they even reached Windurst?

There is a weakness in their somewhere, or you are all blowing things out of proportion.

It's been suggested before that Bastok has stronger ties to Norg than anyone else, so if that is the case (which I agree) then why not hire some Ninja's to sneak into Windurst and kill off some of the more powerful mages before any sort of strike was made. Or even use it to intimidate Windurst. The Tarutaru's fault is "Cowardice", then I assume they could be intimidated easier than anyone else. You could just conquor them and then force 'em to keep making food.

Another thing though: if Bastok did send an army, such a battle would likely turn into a siege around Windurst, in which case there would be plenty of wildlife around to feed the army.

War's aren't perfect, and many times in the past armies have fought and won wars when they were nearly starving.

They can always eat their boots. :p

[Fingus]

If the Bastokan or Elvaan forces reached the gates of Windurst they could send troops through Toramai Canal to get to the Horutoto Ruins and then ambush the forces from behind.

Of course this is a question of units and how well the mages can manage to hold ground at the gates. Still, a surprise attack from some strong War Warlocks could tear up the opposing force a bit.

I think I'll sum the forces up like this:
Sandy = Skill
Bastok = Gear
Windurst = Trickery


Also, people need to take the gameplay away from realistic thinking. Cut the whole thing with Weaponskills, Job Abilites, certain spells, items, etc.

[Blood Red Poet]

Once I get rank 10 I'm gonna have to play the Windurst Missions because if these Taru Mages are so powerful, then I find it hard to believe they haven't already taken over the world. They have no reason not to.

You forget, first off, Tarutarus have no selfish intent like Humes and Elvaans do and second, is lead by one figure who is in favor of peace.

[SonRyoga]

well, another note is, have you ever seen a PLD and a RNG go at it in ballista?

I have both PLD and RNG 75 for the record, so don't take anything personal.

when I used slug shot on a PLD while on my RNG, it does only 400 damage or so. My PLD has 1700HP. Also, PLD can cure itself and with proper weapons, can fight and do enough damage to defeat most jobs. PLD can fight off a horde of people and survive. DRKs, RNGs, and most non-magical damage dealers take a long time to hurt/kill a paladin. San D'Oria is the nation that has Paladins. If you're going to be strict about the stuff where jobs come from, San D'Oria would be mostly Paladin, Red Mage, White Mage, Dragoon. However, if you remember in the opening movie, San D'Oria had tons of Rangers backing them up (Elvaan RNGs on the castle). Bastok may have guns, but with San D'Oria aware of what they can do, they'd probably be a bit more prepared for them.

[Langolier]

Originally posted by Blood Red Poet
You forget, first off, Tarutarus have no selfish intent like Humes and Elvaans do and second, is lead by one figure who is in favor of peace.

Right, that's why that one particular Taru-taru is going around erasing people's memories? I see no evidence that Tarutaru are any different than anyone else. And, being a Hume, or an Elvaan, I'm just not going to be comfortable sitting at home knowing that if I ever do or say anything that isn't in accordance with Windurst's beliefs, that I'll drop dead. So rest assured I'm going to spend every waking hour developing a method to do away with this threat.

Though I ask once again: If these mages are really so powerful, why did the Crystal War even happen? Why did they have to summon Fenrir? Why didn't they just annhilate the Beastman armies gradually while they were still on the other side of the world?

If the Beastman can launch a surprise attack on Windurst, so can Bastok, and anyone else.

We're not talking about a battle done in-game.

If this is in a 'real' Vana d'iel, then it won't matter if I use an Onion dagger, or the Relic Dagger, if I stab you in the neck with a sharp object, you will die. If I shoot you with a gun, you will die or at least be critically injured.

Also, the magic we saw cast in the intro movie looked like it had to move from the caster to the target, so if this was real, I don't see any reason why a shield coun't be used to block such spells. (Granted, we can't do that in-game)

[CRtwenty]

It's not like the other nations don't have magic either... San d'Oria has an entire order of White Mages, and Bastok has to have some mages among its ranks.

[Langolier]

I was fighting Antica in Altep today... and something hit me.

Magic is affected by sound! Jamming Wave! Sound Vaccume! That's how we beat Windurst! We just need to find some way to mimic the effects of such abilities via' Technology~!

We can issue our troops cheap ear-plugs... and cove Windurst with these devesatating sound waves... perhaps a deployable vehicle of some kind... or from an Airship? An musical instrument? There must be a way!

[sudo]

it was NOT a surprise attack against windurst in the first crystal war.

The star sybil at the time predicted the downfall of windurst via fenrir and her star reading powers (predict the future) and that's the whole reason the animaostery was created. To avert this fate.

They mind fused with fenrir and controled him to help preserve windurst and challenged their fate.

It wasn't a surprise attack, the star sybil simply saw no alternatives at the time.

[Langolier]

Originally posted by sudo
it was NOT a surprise attack against windurst in the first crystal war.

The star sybil at the time predicted the downfall of windurst via fenrir and her star reading powers (predict the future) and that's the whole reason the animaostery was created. To avert this fate.

They mind fused with fenrir and controled him to help preserve windurst and challenged their fate.

It wasn't a surprise attack, the star sybil simply saw no alternatives at the time.

That doesn't answer why she didn't just have her mages destroy the Beastman Horde from afar.

So she doesn't see the future then, just one possible future...? (that's a whole 'nother debate :p)

If the Beastman could do that kind of damage without having to catch Windurst off-guard, so can anyone else.

[Blood Red Poet]

Right, that's why that one particular Taru-taru is going around erasing people's memories?

He trying to protect Vana'diel from people trying to become Summoners.

The force that attacked Tavz was about the same as the force that attacked Windurst... but Windurst won(barely).

It came to the point that, there was just too many beastmen. You'd blow them up and more would come. The Tarutarus got pushed back. Now this is because of the sheer amount meleers. Bastok's strength is range. By the time Bastok would shoot one round of bullets, take many lives. Windurst could blow away, burn away, wash away, ect the entire fleet.

Bastok does not and could not make airships. They, and by they I mean Cid only, only do it once during CoP. If the Society ever saw a nation do this they would crush them. And... they could crush any other nation, easily.

San d'Oria defense against gun-power is a lot stronger than you think. First off they could and probably would use the tactics of phalanx. Second... one powerful weapon San d'Oria has... Church of Altana. Just one White Mage could spread cures. A bullet wound to nothing. Only a few would be needed. Bastok has just about no access to curing spells. They are very unreligious. Windurst has access to all magic.

Bastok strength is the Navy. On land they are powerful, but fight much like a watered down Windurst(meleers are as skilled as mercenarys). Bastok has a very divided goverment with an unlikable president. Imagine if the Galkas rebeled during the time of war? But, when it comes to sea warfare, not one nation, even Jeuno, can compare. Windurst is a distant second and San d'Oria probably has less than 3 combat ships.

[Blackjack]

I think you're underestimating the power of the ballistic weaponry here. Common sense tactics in firearms would place them in rows and that alternate between reloading and firing to deliver a constant stream of bullets directly at an enemy.

Bastok in this sense is about as technologically capable as a force in the Napoleonic era. Cannons then are used to break formations as the front line marches forward. Either shallow arcs to virtually destroy the frontal lines or longer range bombardments to shatter the bulk of the forces arrayed.

The advantage of the gun is it's relatively low training time, so much so that in the modern age children are used as soldiers.

Sandoria on the other hand is about as capable as any medieval force and unfortunately for them, there was a reason combat evolved.

The only unknown is magic, however based on the limitations of magic in the world of Vana'diel, a nation could bombard another long after their opponents have tapped themselves out of magic.