Paladin Shield = Monk Guard?!

[modnar]

Ok, I am not sure how people are handling the recent change in the way Shield block is being calculated and executed, but so far I think that there is something wrong with the idea...

How can you accept that Parrying an attack with your weapon (which results in 0 damage taken) be better than blocking an attack with a shield (which now only reduces the damage taken)?

It makes no sense.

Also notice that Ninja has an 'A' rating in parrying, which Paladin does not get. Does this mean that Ninja is parrying and getting no damage (no ninjitsu) while a Paladin is blocking and getting percentage damage?

Has the Paladin shield been reduced to a lame version of a Monk's Gaurd skill?

Has the Paladin been gimped by this change?

[Lone Dragon]

Actually it’s better than Guard since it works more often and you get an opportunity to lvl it. -_-

[Arris]

hmmm....all i know my parrying skill has shot up since the change.

[breal777]

It's like Monk Guard skill, yes, but it's much better than guard. I've got around 200 guard skill as 75mnk and 180ish shield skill as 72pld, but I shield block a hell of a lot more than I guard.

[modnar]

So lets put it this way:

A Monk, a Ninja, and a Paladin are tanking in the same exact situation. Same DEF, same lvl, etc. All 3 have capped Guard/Parry/Shield and evasion. The ninja has no ninjitsu.

Who will be taking more damage and who will be taking the least damage?

What I am argueing is this: It seems that the recent change to shield has made it that the Paladin is not at an advantage with a shield.

Whether this is true or not, I am not sure. I am just trying to look at it, and it seems that there is something wrong...

I am still new to Paladin, so I am not claiming knowledge. I am simply putting forth the arguement.

[Macht]

The thing you are forgeting to factor is frequency. How frequent does parry really activate in relation to shield and guard.

If in an entire fight parry only activates 2-3 times and shield activates 10-12 times (Haven't tried the new shielding design yet to know how frequent it actually guards) then even at only a percent removed it's still going to out-do parry in the damage prevented.

So if you flatten this out to an average, say each attack being recieved is 100 damage. Out of 20 attacks the NIN parries 3 that means he's still recieved 1,700 damage. If a PLD (ignoring that they can also parry, but not at effective) were to shield 10 attacks taking off 20% damage each shield, then the PLD recieved 1,800 damage.

As you see it looks like the NIN did better in that situation, but if I recall right guard reduces the damage taken by more then just 20%, it's more like 30% or 50%. So calculate it that way and the PLD took a total of 1,500 - 1,700 damage. Doesn't really make him much better or worse then.

That is of course is a flat test assuming that the defense is equal and the damage each is recieving is equal. In reality though the NIN is going to take much more of a beating without utsusemi and the PLD is going to take much less.

So again not a real life test but lets say the 100 damage is the neutral base. Well say the NIN takes 20% more damage then the base and the PLD takes 20% less then the base. So run that test again and the NIN blocking 3 attacks will end up taking 2,040 damage and a PLD shielding 10 attack at 20%-50% each will end up taking 1,440 - 1,200 damage.

Now you see here the difference starts to change greatly, if you go with the old shielding system you'd be lucky to shield 2 times in a regular match which means again you see around only 1,440. I've got to really start trying it though to see how it is now, but there's the idea and how you should look at it to identify if the change was good or bad.

To me it looks like it's almost no different or maybe even slightly better if you start factoring in a successful parry by the PLD (Even just 1 parry, would make the damage the PLD takes to the NIN extreemly huge).

EDIT:

The biggest thing I see that this change did was made it were you can level shield faster and easier.

[Ara]

The thing I don't like the most about the new shield system, is that before if you were in the middle of casting cure on yourself and you blocked the next attack with your shield, you wouldn't get interrupted.

With the new system if you're in the same scenerio and you block the attack, you still take damage, so you get interrupted :(

[PaladinsArc]

That's the one thing I can't stand. Mid cast and I get interrupted after taking like 5 dmg while blocking an attack from a weak mob. But we dicked around with Adamantoise and I tested the difference between sword/shield & terra's staff over a 20 minute period of time on a parser. But at the moment I'm at school so I can't post the parser's results.

What I remember was that with sword/shield (263 + 10 shield skill) was that I took around 8-10% lower dmg than I did with Terra's staff.

I also parsed (is this the right word?) a Byakko fight but the parser screwed up when the intimidation started... I dun get it. :(

In a way... the new shield update is good thing. It's just that damn interruption while blocking thing that pisses me off a lot. I found it easier to skillup on decent/even match than skilling up XP mobs.

[JP_Ikari]

Haha I hate the casting gets interrupted while a block goes off ; ;. But as for how often a shield block works, i think they follow the check where Evasion goes first then if evasion fails you block. Seeing PLD's have a C rating on Evasion, and A on shield blocking, we will see a shield block more often than us evading an attack. I like it cause it rose from 149+10 (pre patch) to 155+10, and I had a -10 evasion cloak during that time.

I see 35's to 45's with my current shield, and when I don't block it, they do about 70-90dmg (this is off Robber crabs in Gustav Tunnels, the Lizards in Cape terrigan and Gobs down in Gustav as well). I like it cause you see your shield go up at least, but I think I already said this in the other post that i hate the fact that you don't know when the shield goes off in the chat log anymore, so you pretty much have to watch your character.

JP

[Zempten]

Well don't forget that each jobs caps Shield/Parry/Evasion at different levels as well ^^

[Shifty]

my block skill is 157ish at LV63pld. before the patch, i parried/blocked maybe 1 attack per mob. now, i block around 3...that, imo is much, much better than blocking 1x and taking no dmg. plus, i'm getting shield skill ups like crazy.

as ninja, my parry is 174 at LV65, and i parry maybe 1x out of 3 fights...or sometimes parry 3x in one fight...its very random...and i almost never get skill ups on it unless i'm skilling up...

[Gad]

I didnt test the new shield on HNMs, but as far as farming goes, I have noticed that now I can keep on killing for a longer period of time untill I finally have to med.

[Lone Dragon]

Originally posted by modnar
So lets put it this way:

A Monk, a Ninja, and a Paladin are tanking in the same exact situation. Same DEF, same lvl, etc. All 3 have capped Guard/Parry/Shield and evasion. The ninja has no ninjitsu.

Who will be taking more damage and who will be taking the least damage?

What I am argueing is this: It seems that the recent change to shield has made it that the Paladin is not at an advantage with a shield.

Whether this is true or not, I am not sure. I am just trying to look at it, and it seems that there is something wrong...

I am still new to Paladin, so I am not claiming knowledge. I am simply putting forth the arguement.

Well, you'd be wrong.

Using your lil scenario and the current system, PLD would still take the least damage, at a close 2nd MNK (MNK's base vit is the same as PLD), then at a distant 3rd, NIN.
Since you've admitted you know little about any of these jobs, you really have nothing to base your argument on. No legs.
So one has to wonder why you feel as though you need to start an argument in the first place.

[modnar]

Originally posted by Lone Dragon
Well, you'd be wrong.

Using your lil scenario and the current system, PLD would still take the least damage, at a close 2nd MNK (MNK's base vit is the same as PLD), then at a distant 3rd, NIN.
Since you've admitted you know little about any of these jobs, you really have nothing to base your argument on. No legs.
So one has to wonder why you feel as though you need to start an argument in the first place.

I guess you are, as you say, "rude, but not wrong". :)

I have seen your posts for a long time, and I know your post actualy hold merrit and valid points of argument. So I know you are not "trolling", or randomly coming in and bashing me :)

But take it easy on me..! I am just making conversation :thumbsup:

I played Monk for the longest time as my first job, and one of my perks (which you still can read in this forum in a post entitled "Monks CAN TANK, Hear me out", is the lvling of the "Guard" skill and how useful it can be as a method of tanking (do not start flaming me NOW about that perk, I was just starting out in this game and had opinions that I might not neccessarily agree with now that I have more experience.. and I think that thread was started sometime in January 2004, not sure..., but in any case, I don't hold to all the opinions I used to hold back then).

In any case, I spent many hours lvling up "Guard". The way Guard works for a Monk is that it reduces the amount of damage taken (is it half? I don't remember too well). This 'sounds' alot like what shield skill has been changed into; you receive a percentage of damage rather than the full damage.

Also, Monk does not get parry, which Ninja has an 'A' rating in, and that blocks the entire damage... so if you take the thought to its end, it seems like parry would be the best alternative to the 3 skills, and it seems that shield has been down-graded.

At least this was what my original thought process was as I read the patch changes.

So, after the patch came out, I starting reading the posts in the Paladin forum for some insight on the new shield skill. Do people like it or do people hate it? And since, I was not satisfied with the posts in the forum because not too many people posted about what they think of the skill, I posted this thread to "Provoke" (he he) the arguments and opinions.

Its for insight and conversation that I posted this thread. In addition, due to the recent change, I started playing Paladin (currently lvl 11) to just check it out.

So, I am not trying to argue... I am just trying to see what people's opinions are... and I put forth my thoughts into the thread as well...

All good? :spin:

"Not always right... but always tries to be polite". :spin: