Wait a sec.... If RDM are the masters of enfeebling...

[Lasareth]

Then why do Ni-level ninjutsu spells overwrite our feebs? I was recently in a PT with an extremely adept (and rich @@) ninja who'd use the Ni enfeebles often. Their land rate is about the same, if not more, than mine, and I can't overwrite them with my spells (hell, even Ichi is on par with my enfeebling magic.)

Do the Ninjutsu spells last a short while only? Because I wasn't able to notice the effects wearing off after he casted them. If they did, then that would probably explain their effectiveness, but still.... it's disheartening to slow a torama and 2 seconds later see the message saying Hojo: Ni slowed the enemy -.-;

[Sadeira]

simply because it's STRONGER. like how sleep 2 overwrites sleep and lullaby. they also last the entire battle.

the nin paralyze ni one also has a higher paralyze activiation rate, and i believe the activation is based on ninjutsu skill rather than on base stats, like how paralyze spell is based on mnd.

in short, if you have a nin, let him do the slow, paralyze, and blind, and you can do gravity. ifyou need to skill up enfeebling, you can do it through gravity, poison, dia, and silence.

don't feel gimp, rdms live on their flexibility. even if you can't slow, para, or blind, there's OTHER things you can help the party with to be victorious.

[Mila]

makes me think we should get some II enfeebles ; ;

[Sadeira]

gravity 2 :x

[Coinspinner]

Seems you're still just the jacks of all trades after all. Who woulda thought? :p

*runs away*

[Sadeira]

/ma "Bind" Coinspinner

/ws "Vorpal Blade" Coinspinner

;o

[ZQM]

Except there is no Jubaku: Ni that PCs can use, and since the :ichi spell takes 4 seconds to cast, most NINs don't both with it. So it's normally a good idea for RDM to take care of Paralyze. :)

[Mila]

Originally posted by Sadeira
gravity 2 :x

makes the mob run backwards! :O

[Sadeira]

word :p

[WishMaster3K]

; ; Well, we get Dia II at lvl 32.

But I would LOVE like, a Gravity II, or...dare I say?


A Dispel II!!! >=O

Seriously tho, dont bitch at the NIN for enfeebling. I mean, they cant ust sit in town and skill up like mages can. And besides, my MND is so damn low, I have to cast Paralyze and Slow more than once for them to stick.

/em curses his Taru-ness.
*gets asked to dance for 5000 gil*

/em luffs t3h Taru again! ^^

[Lasareth]

I mean, they cant ust sit in town and skill up like mages can.

Tonko, Utsu ;O

Granted, every spell they casts costs gil, but in this game, what doesn't ? :3

[bonovoxpsu]

while a ninja's enfeebles are very good...

they have INSANE casting times. along with long recasts. and since a ninja is occupied with keeping hate, its a bit iffy to be casting3-4 enfeebles.

they'll usually do one or two, max. some ninnies like blind, others like slow. figure out what they use and then fill in the rest.

[Zempten]

Dispel 2? What for? To dispel more then one buff? Dispel works just fine and there are few occasions where the mob has more then one buff, usually people fight crabs and crawlers and raptors, basicially animals that don't cast.

[Monkor]

Originally posted by Zempten
Dispel 2? What for?

Can dispel (like stun for instance) be resisted? If so, that's why.

[tdh]

Meanwhile, Dispel II wouldn't be an entirely bad idea, I'd rather have other Lv.2 spells, well before I'd ever get a Dispel II. If anything, I'd like stats and skill level to determine if Dispel wipes out two buffs as opposed to just one.

But I'd like to have a Slow II, Gravity II, and of course Refresh II. I know it's not an Enfeebling spell, but hey -- we're talking about wanted Lv.2 spells. :biggrin:

[Sadeira]

Originally posted by Zempten
Dispel 2? What for? To dispel more then one buff? Dispel works just fine and there are few occasions where the mob has more then one buff, usually people fight crabs and crawlers and raptors, basicially animals that don't cast.

wait until you fight weapons in ro'maeve... then you'll want more dispel!

[Raineer]

Originally posted by Monkor
Can dispel (like stun for instance) be resisted? If so, that's why.
Yes but it's rare as hell... The most common times it is resisted a Dispel 2 wouldn't work either (magic barrier)

I just want refresh 2... Self-only, costs 120mp, lasts 7 1/2 minutes, same casting time as Refresh 1.

Basically a self-only refresh that's still 1mp/sec, just so we only need to be in the chain 1:3 times.

[magnius]

I was fighting crabs in kuftal yesterday and my dispel got resisted, my whole PT had never seen that before. I knew it could happen on mobs with magic resistance but crabs....?

What confuses me/ makes me mad, is that all jobs except rdm get higher lvl something. brds and ninjas get higher lvl debuffs, whm get raise II and III, higher lvl cure spells, and regen II and III(really think rdm should get regen II at some point), and blm get higher lvl nukes. Rdm on the other hand are still using half the spells we were getting in the dunes. :(

[alpha1471]

Originally posted by Mila
makes the mob run backwards! :O
Reminds me of Necromancer's Terror skill in Diablo2. :biggrin:

[Zempten]

Originally posted by Sadeira
wait until you fight weapons in ro'maeve... then you'll want more dispel!

I really doubt we are going to get a Dispel 2 just for the use on weapons in ro'maeve.

As far as getting resisted, I have never gotten my dispel resisted so far against anything but magic resistant mobs.

[Melkor]

Originally posted by magnius
What confuses me/ makes me mad, is that all jobs except rdm get higher lvl something. brds and ninjas get higher lvl debuffs, whm get raise II and III, higher lvl cure spells, and regen II and III(really think rdm should get regen II at some point), and blm get higher lvl nukes. Rdm on the other hand are still using half the spells we were getting in the dunes. :(

Like someone else said, your a jack of all trades, you shouldnt have higher lvl cures/raises/nukes, you got enough useful spells already and add a great amount to a party.

Yes, our Ni Enfeebles are more powerful, and even if Rdm did get Lvl 2 Enfeebles, I would ask them not to cast it so I can for more hate.

Thats only 2 Debuffs that are stronger then yours, Para being the same pretty much but maybe taking effect more often.
You still have other debuffs that you can use that we cant.

[Shiia]

Weapons in general, I hate them so much. They can have anywhere from 4~7 buffs (stoneskin sometimes...) that I want to pull my hairs out if I have removed shell4 and prot 4 last. DispellII is very welcome but I believe the dispell power should increase while you level... perhaps remove 2 effect at 70? Like bard's song will increase in potency (some of them) as you get more skills.

[bonovoxpsu]

Originally posted by magnius
I was fighting crabs in kuftal yesterday and my dispel got resisted, my whole PT had never seen that before. I knew it could happen on mobs with magic resistance but crabs....?

What confuses me/ makes me mad, is that all jobs except rdm get higher lvl something. brds and ninjas get higher lvl debuffs, whm get raise II and III, higher lvl cure spells, and regen II and III(really think rdm should get regen II at some point), and blm get higher lvl nukes. Rdm on the other hand are still using half the spells we were getting in the dunes. :(

i usually see dispel resisted on anticans (black magic based).

hmm. about your complaints... well, the power of many of our enfeebles (slow and para especially, i think blind is affected too) is based on our enfeebling skill. so it kind of kills any need for a lvl2 enfeebling spell. why should we need slow2 at lvl 60 when slow1 at lvl 60 is already more powerful then slow at 20?

and regen 2... well, it would start to overpower high lvl rdm's... but i want it anyway. i already think we're a bit overpowered as is. we get lvl 3 nukes, which is a blessing, IMHO.

so, i'm pretty happy with the spell selection of rdm's. i would gladly take more... *cough*dia/bio3*cough*

[Jubbermuffin]

Bio/Dia 3 would be great, I'd rather see these than slow or gravity II. And yes, regen 2 would be a massive help for RDMS, but would make us pretty damn powerful. Toss a regen2 on the tank, continue about your daily RDM business; not much room for a pure WHM there.

[Chucklez_1]

Gravity II, Dia III, and possibly specific elemental debuffs ^^.

[Ithaqua]

:3 what about Stone skin II it stacks with the normal stoneskin! Yay, we can go tank a HNM solo for 30 seconds until we die :D.

[Alaeth]

My opinion on the whole "If RDMs got <insert spell X>, they would be too powerful" line of thinking is quite simple. 1200 gil buys you a yagudo drink (or 800-ish to make), which is just as good as Refresh. Yet, there isn't any item you can buy that will give you Regen II/III, level IV nukes, or most of the other things that WHMs and BLMs get that RDMs don't.

I have a WHM friend who I keep supplied with yag drinks, and with those, she can solo better than I can. Between Hexa Strike and Regen III, there's absolutely nothing I can do that she can't do much, much better. The only non-subbable advantage I have is Refresh, and it's very inexpensive for any other job to gain that advantage as well.

[Kiaza]

Another lil interesting tidbit.
Reflect, its already encoded in the game and it is a RDM only specific spell as well. More solo goodness =)...
There's a few others spells already encoded in the game, just need a patch to release them to the PC public.

[Sadeira]

reflect tornado back at that air elemental

that would be so awesome

[WishMaster3K]

I had a nice, thought out post yesterday... but due to some bandwidth issues at my school, my post was lost ; ;. I'll try to recount.

Essentially, giving RDM a Regen II would be hilarious as all fudge-filled-fairies because a WHM would have a very narrow job description, save for possibly Erase and a few other things.

And giving RDM a Refresh II would make it even harder for bards to compete. I mean, a lot of idiotic players think that Mage's Ballad is better than Refresh, so if a RDM was able to cycle between two spells- Refresh PLD tank, and Refresh II the mages, perhaps- It would tip the balance in a new way.

I personally never had to compete with Bards, because ppl knew me (i made sure that the ppl I saw regularly remember only fond thoughts of Renarudo the Red) and/or I had 2 friends that always pted with me. (pts were usually us: RDM, BLM, RNG; then a dedicated Tank; dedicated Melee, preferably a backup voke; and a WHM)

In fact, my LS is pretty much agreeing with me when I stated that BRD are like some wierd bootleg-Red Mage. They get swords and shields, and they pretty much have similar spells, except for the entire "Song Range" thing that can hit an entire area. I mean, I never thought about BRD that way until I saw that they get a bootleg dispel at 33......

Anyone know if BRD get an upgrade to Mage's ballad? The site i checked pretty much only went to lvl 50, and the other sites i know are blocked at school.

edit: looked at my old static and realized that we had a WHM in there ^^;

[Justarius]

I think most people 75 RDMs will agree that BRDs > RDM in EXPERIENCE point parties in nearly every area and party formation after Lv55 if only 1 spot is alloted for MP regen. This is comparing competent BRD vs RDM, not idiotic ones that dont know how to get Ballad on a PLD, or debuff.

That said, if Refresh II were added, a 6 MP/tic self-only spell would be awesome. Especially for solo :spin: Or make Refresh II be a Refresh I that lasts 2x as long. Making Phalanx II an AoE Phalanx would be nice too.

[WishMaster3K]

Thinking about it, i suppose that Having a 1/MP tick spell that is on everyone at once is slightyly better than having 3MP/Tick that needs a certain amount of cooldown.

Oh, and plz dont talk about a RDM/BRD... no comments... plz.. ; ;

And having Refresh II being a 6 mp spell would be a BIT too much.

And having both stack would be overkill as well. But like I said, if it was there, I'd be able to make a killing in my Static PT. Only ones with mp are Me, BLM, WHM and PLD. Having two ppl Refreshed at the same time effectively cuts the Refresh Cylce in half. And while a NIN tank would be better, with that new German sounding armor (especially the +1 of it) that WAR/PLD get at level 29, there is very little need for healing. (i even think that they can use that until AF....)

Heh, AOE Phalanx is overpowered. Hmmm, would give those Trio/Duo pts with RDM tanks that we usually see taking stuff like Avators a new dimension.

I think the WORSE thing would be to make either the Refresh II or Phalanx II stackable with the level I iterations.

[Icemage]

Originally posted by WishMaster3K
I had a nice, thought out post yesterday... but due to some bandwidth issues at my school, my post was lost ; ;. I'll try to recount.

Essentially, giving RDM a Regen II would be hilarious as all fudge-filled-fairies because a WHM would have a very narrow job description, save for possibly Erase and a few other things.

And giving RDM a Refresh II would make it even harder for bards to compete. I mean, a lot of idiotic players think that Mage's Ballad is better than Refresh, so if a RDM was able to cycle between two spells- Refresh PLD tank, and Refresh II the mages, perhaps- It would tip the balance in a new way.

I personally never had to compete with Bards, because ppl knew me (i made sure that the ppl I saw regularly remember only fond thoughts of Renarudo the Red) and/or I had 2 friends that always pted with me. (pts were usually us: RDM, BLM, RNG; then a dedicated Tank, dedicated Melee and any other job that could backup voke)

In fact, my LS is pretty much agreeing with me when I stated that BRD are like some wierd bootleg-Red Mage. They get swords and shields, and they pretty much have similar spells, except for the entire "Song Range" thing that can hit an entire area. I mean, I never thought about BRD that way until I saw that they get a bootleg dispel at 33......

Anyone know if BRD get an upgrade to Mage's ballad? The site i checked pretty much only went to lvl 50, and the other sites i know are blocked at school.

Eh? Bards and Red Mages get similar spells? Since when? This whole post is completely in the wrong context, since the poster is level *31*.

At level 31, of COURSE you haven't had to compete with bards for a spot - you haven't got either Convert or Refresh yet.

Bards get Mage's Ballad II at level 55(2MP/3sec). Stacked with Mage's Ballad I(1MP/3sec), this produces the a similar 3MP/tick bonus as Refresh does, but without MP costs - hence the competition between RDM and BRD.


Icemage

[tdh]

Originally posted by WishMaster3K
Anyone know if BRD get an upgrade to Mage's ballad? The site i checked pretty much only went to lvl 50, and the other sites i know are blocked at school. Yes, Mages Ballad II @ Lv.55.

I never really thought about what bono said. That with our Enfeebling skills, a Lv.2 Slow, or Paralyze would be useless. Now that I've seen that, I withdrawl that request. :)

I still would like a RefreshII. Though, after hearing all the different ideas about implemintation, I'm not sure how I'd like it. I know RDM is a very strong class, and I think we may be one of the hardest classes to balance, but I still want more!! lol

Regen II would be very nice! Raise II would be nice as well. Phalanx II or Phalanxaga, as nice as those might be, I could do with out them.

Another consideration would be a Hastaga. BRD gets a Haste song, we get Haste 8 levels behind WHM. So give us something at Lv.60 or so that can toss in some more Haste.

Reflect would be kick ass, but I think it would really make a job class to over powered.

Just thoughts though.

[WishMaster3K]

thanx for answering the question with attitude, Icemage...

And while Bards have stuff like Accuracy+ songs, Regen Songs, Strength+ songs, I was refering to the songs that seem to do the same things Debuffs from a RDM do.

You didnt have to be rude about it, i KNOW I'm 31, and everyone else can see that. Oh, and how would me getting Refresh and Convert make the competition Worse, if thats what your implying. :confused:

[neighbortaru]

BRD's get a slow song. Comparing BRD and RDM debuffs, the things they lack are paralyze, blind, dia, bio and gravity.

[Justarius]

After 55 BRDs >> RDM in terms of XP party usefulness. This is because of Ballad 2 that basically is an AoE Refresh (3MP/tic total in combination with Ballad I) Plus BRDs can increase melee effectiveness (accuracy & damage) much more so than the result of a Dia II & Gravity would ever be able to. Good bards even land Threnody for extra burst damage. I am a 75 RDM myself, but I dont delude myself into thinking that given equal skill, certain classes are superior to others for expiernce parties. How many non-tanks actually know what Carnage Elegy does? or understand why RNGs always moan and groan about getting prelude? No one really sees the effect of BRDs, since they are support and make big numbers appear for other party members. But dont fret, there are still very few BRDs compared to RDM probably since BRDs suck horribly solo. But pts with a BRD, RDM, BLM are typically fun.

but yea, Regen 2 would be nice. Apparently Regen was originally a RDM only spell, but after a fair amount of bitching WHM also got it, and then II, and III.

[neighbortaru]

a BRD+RDM party would be godly...

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by neighbortaru
a BRD+RDM party would be godly...

There are problems with it, however. Basically, because you limit yourself in the backline you can support. If you take BLM, then you have a *very* powerful backline, that fully supports the front line with damage, buffs, and heals. However, when the eventual death happens (you just kinda have to accept that somebody will most likely die without a WHM around...you get deaths sometimes even WITH a whm around), somebody is stuck eating a Raise I. When I make this kind of party, I accept the fact (I usually try to keep reraise on me just so I can raise myself and not waste the parties time *too* much) that I won't be getting higher raises. Other people...well, they can range from having the same attitude as me to refusing to take anything but a Raise II/III. *Note* This arguement is based on lv55+, seeing as before then, BRD and RDM are not at their full potential. Before then, Raise I vs II/III is not an issue.

So...RDM/BLM/BRD is one of the more powerful backlines...but if someone dies its a bitch. What do you do? Get a WHM! The problem with this backline is that it adds little to no fire power, aside from assorted bursts from the RDM. So for this party to work, you have to have some BIG damage melee's. Even then, this party's killspeed will be slower than others. At the same time, I'm not entirely sure how it would work, seeing as the only job I have 55+ is BLM, and as such, have never been in such a party. I'm sure this would be a fantastic party if you're nearing the end of an exp camp (meaning...62 in onzozo, 68-69 in Boyahda, 70-71 in Den of Rancor), as you tend to need less damage at the end (because melee damage gets ramped up when they're closer to the mobs level).

Personally, I despise leveling without a whm. That's cause if anyone in the party dies, it's usually me, and having to eat Raise I at lv72 basically defeats the purpose of exping. I like having BLM/WHM/BRD or BLM/WHM/RDM. Mainly, I see the difference between BRD and RDM is that BRD helps melee's do more damage, while RDM adds damage directly with MB's. They both have their advantages. However, I can count the number of times I partied with a bard almost on one hand...they're just really rare, and mostly will out level you in seconds.

[_11of8]

My static party is this setup:

NIN/WAR
WAR/THF/NIN - Varies on situation
MNK/WAR
RDM/WHM/BLM - Varies on situation
WHM/BLM
BRD/WHM

We've a very defined pattern to our gameplay that makes exping a breeze. We don't always hit chain 5 due to the time it takes to pull the monsters to our camp, but we make up for that with 0 down time, even on AOE mobs. Even the WHM gets to spam a Holy on most fights and never dips below 200 MP.

BRD+RDM in any competent party will result in great exp and little down time. They don't compete for PT spots; they compliment each other in them.

[Laehn]

Dont worry about brds. Brds and rdms share a couple spell effects, but for the most part, theyre opposites. Anyone who thinks rdms and brds are at odds against eachother obviously doesnt know much about the two jobs.

People often consider both jobs refresh monkies and interchangeable because of that, but thats a very small part of both of our jobs and a pretty short-sighted comparison. You cant simply replace a rdm and hope to get the same benefits with a brd or vice versa. There are places where rdms are going to pwn brds in party play, and other times where brds are going to be more helpful. Brds main focus in a party and biggest help comes from melee augmentation, rdm on the other hand are more focused on gimping the monster. This makes brds more suited for highly offensive and risky parties and weaker in more defensive party setups than a rdm.

Every job has its advantages and short comings, its no different for rdm. Be thankful rdms are so powerful in their own right, lots of jobs would kill to be able to solo HNM and other tough monsters. But theres a tradeoff, your all around ability makes you an extremely useful utility character for filling almost any spot that needs to be filled, but that doesnt make you a replacement for that spot. Rdms are always going to be in high demand because of that flexibility and no other job can fill those big shoes.

[Justarius]

WHM/BLM/BRD is better than RDM/BLM/BRD if the best xp area for that level requires Status Cures - petrify/disease/cures, or if your tank is underequipped :spin: Having raise2+ is always nice, but shouldnt really be a deciding factor in an XP party aimed at getting XP, not minimizing XP loss. NIN tanks are usually less work for RDM to main heal as well.

and yes, you can replace a RDM with a BRD in a competent xp pt, and probably be better off.

[Jubbermuffin]

I've been exping with my BRD friend lately, and even though we seek as a duo, getting parties isn't too hard. I do rue the lack of a whm sometimes, especially after eating a raise 1 just last night, but I'd say almost all of the sticky situations I've been in during a rdm + brd party could've been avoided with more thought or concentration.

[Laehn]

Originally posted by Justarius
and yes, you can replace a RDM with a BRD in a competent xp pt, and probably be better off.

Sometimes yes, but not all the time. Ro'maeve is an example. If youre fighting weapons, youre going to wish you had a rdm instead of a brd. Finale just takes too long to recast.

[Justarius]

that only effects the 1st spawns of weapons. you should be pulling weapons fast enough as they spawn so they they probably dont even have a buff on them at all. Many good BRDs are pullers in RoMeave since they run out and pull @ 25% life and sleep the mob right at the doorway until the previous one dies. Chain#8 or 9 depending on if the can pull enough mobs in time with the occasional Golem mixed in for fun.

Althrough RoMeave really sucks in terms of xp after 72.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Justarius
that only effects the 1st spawns of weapons. you should be pulling weapons fast enough as they spawn so they they probably dont even have a buff on them at all. Many good BRDs are pullers in RoMeave since they run out and pull @ 25% life and sleep the mob right at the doorway until the previous one dies. Chain#8 or 9 depending on if the can pull enough mobs in time with the occasional Golem mixed in for fun.

Althrough RoMeave really sucks in terms of xp after 72.

Chain 8 or 9 while being <72? I find that hard to believe, even with the pre-pulling.

[Laehn]

They cast too fast, and with one party, theres no way to pull fast enough. Brds arent pullers, you're insane. A brd can easily die pulling out there if a sleep is resisted or if theyre bound. They have one of the weakest defenses in the game and some of the worst choices in armor. Its like sending a smn out to pull without an avatar. A brds time is better spent resting MP especially in those cases when curagas and erase are so vital. Blink on the weapons along with all the other buffs can come to around 9 castings of finale on ONE enemy to remove all the buffs, thats too much for a brd to remove in one fight and will make it extremely difficult to get even chain 5 and pull in time, unless youre chaining VT-T in which case youre better off going someplace else. Ive been there before with 2 rngs and we left to tulia to fight harder mobs that dont use buffs and did fine.

Another example would be whm or pld type mobs. Brds have the same difficulty with those too. Another example are wyvern mobs, dispelling wind makes a brd very weak. Any mage type mob that needs silencing gives rdms the upperhand compared to brds. Rdms have more mp making them MUCH better backup healers than brds and rdms can MB too.

Brds are not better than rdms, theyre just more specialized. A rdm can do a lot of things a lot better than a brd, where a brd can only do one thing extremely better than a rdm.

The fact is rdm can roughly fill an empty spot in a party, but never replace a job. But no job can fill a rdms spot because no other job is as flexible as a rdm. The jobs all share some similarities, but none of them are better or worse, they just do things differently. And because of that fact, they all have advantages over other jobs and weaknesses. Rdms just dont have any large weaknesses or strengths in any specific area. Flexibility is a double edged sword. Its a rdms greatest strength and weakness.

[WishMaster3K]

Wow, thanx a lot for putting a nice spin on it. Maybe i was being narrow in my views of spells and etc.

Come to think of it, it would be much better to have a RDM and a BRD than to have either/or.

In this case, my usual static would be
RDM/WHM( for healing tank and doing RDM stuff)
BRD/WHM
BLM/WHM
RNG/NIN
PLD/WAR
(now that i think of it, mainly anything can go in this spot...Maybe even a THF so that it can SATA when RNG inevitably pulls hate)

In any case, i highly doubt this setup can have the PLD keep hate at level 40. But then again, i had a pt with a Taru PLD with that new German armor (someone gimme a name any day now...) and a craptasticular load of +VIT stuff in addition to gear. He had normal Taru MP and healed himself pretty well without the gimp WHM we had. So i suppose a lone PLD can keep hate at 40. who knows.

We drifted off main topic kinda hard btw. :sweat:

[Apple Pie]

Especially for NINs, having both BRD and RDM is always nice because Elegy and Slow (or Hojo) stack. This makes them recasting Utsusemi:Ichi easier and iventually helps them to switch their eva+ gears to offensive ones resulting in increasing overall firepower and PT efficiency.

BRD has someting that RDM doesn't and vice versa. Therefore, having both is always nice.

By the way, BRD can be the best puller in KRT. How did we get chain 21 (check my sig) last night? Well, this was because our BRD was excellent always pre-pulling next one.

I think I'm going to level BRD next since BRD is also an artistic job like RDM requring player's experience and skill.

[Mila]

I would think that brd would be an awesome puller... they don't need to stick around after their songs are sung. If I ever play brd, I'm gonna be puller for sure.

[ClydeArrowny]

They cast too fast, and with one party, theres no way to pull fast enough.
Uhh, with one good PT you can take most of them out, and you just avoid pulling the ones you didnt get to on the new pop cycle.

Brds arent pullers, you're insane. A brd can easily die pulling out there if a sleep is resisted or if theyre bound. They have one of the weakest defenses in the game and some of the worst choices in armor. Its like sending a smn out to pull without an avatar. A brds time is better spent resting MP especially in those cases when curagas and erase are so vital. Blink on the weapons along with all the other buffs can come to around 9 castings of finale on ONE enemy to remove all the buffs, thats too much for a brd to remove in one fight and will make it extremely difficult to get even chain 5 and pull in time, unless youre chaining VT-T in which case youre better off going someplace else.

Brds can pull fine. The other day a brd in my PT was pulling weapons with elegy bringing them back just as the previous one died without getting hit. A good puller should n't be getting hit so def means shit. Thf is main puller a lot and my elvaan thf has less def than taru blms when im in PT equips.

If you pull at the right range you wont worry about bind.
Well, in cases where the brd NEEDS to regularly curaga and erase more than ballad and refresh allow, sure have them rest.

Uhh, rdm can dispel too, its not like the brd is soloing the enemy....and not all enemies have 9 buffs. Even on weapons, after first pull cycle, 1 or 2 buffs at most per pull.

Brd shouldn't pull in /every/ circumstance....but it can help a lot with chaining high by pulling while the melees finish off the mob theyre fighting. On my thf I had to stick around to hit the renkei so i couldnt run off to pull as the mob was on its last legs(renkei usually killed it.) If brd didnt pull I dont think we would've been able to chain6.

[Laehn]

Thfs have utsusemi, a much higher evasion, flee and hide, rngs have widescan, shadowbind, and ranged weapons which have greater range, thats why theyre better at pulling. Not to mention the -vit items brds often wear along with the chance that lullaby could be resisted and the fact most brds wear hp>mp gear that offer no defensive attributes along with errant gear, which is a double edged sword.

Consider a certain brd casts one curaga, one erase 4 typical longer brd songs and one single target party buff with 3 normal enfeebling songs. Thats about 1 minute and 20 seconds just stuck standing there from my estimates, and thats a pretty conservative estimate. That doesnt include finale, lullaby, recasts due to possible resists, or travel time for the brd. Thats pure standing and casting. Typical songs wear off in approximately 1 1/2 minutes, by the time youre all done singing and casting, two things are happening unless youre having problems: 1. The mobs is either dead, or close to death 2. Songs are wearing off and need to be refreshed. If you want more information on how to play the job go here http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27082 its a good crash course on "playing brd" 101.

Granted, people play the job differently, but most brds would agree that pulling is generally not in the jobs expected duties for good reason.

Chaining monsters like that is no big accomplishment (21 is impressive), ive done it before too. It can be fun and something to brag about to friends, but 180~ exp you have to admit is nothing fantastic considering you can get the same experience from a chain 2 easily with half as much work. And how easy are chain 2's compared to chain 21's?

Ive been a brd, nearly a year, and in all that time, ive never once seen another brd pulling other than in real competitive places. Brds are generally too busy to be doing that type of stuff, but ive done it myself, and i know it works, its just not safe or a good decision for very obvious reasons. Brds are not pullers. The only tool a brd has that other jobs dont when it comes to pulling is sleep and to be honest, thats not a very quick way to pull and can cause unexpected links or even make you lose the very mob you were pulling. Combine the headstart a brd using sleep would get, along with all the -enmity most brds wear at high lvls, the mob is likely to become disinterested before it reaches you.

[Shiia]

Pretty much depends on the hunting ground I think. Ro'Mauve's pull is one of the most annoying place to do. The mobs are all spread out, they run pretty fast compared to the skeletons in King Ramp's tomb. King Ramp's tomb however they are packed together and links are likely to happen (they are REALLY REALLY DUMB, sound agro ya but you have to REALLY BE CLOSE to get their attention...)... in any case chain 21... my god did you cleared the entire area or something -_-;

[Apple Pie]

did you cleared the entire area or something
Yes, we did. We went there with NIN, MNK, MNK, BRD, WHM and myself (All LV75). We're running around, what we call, "Doughnut" (http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/ranperre.jpg) area and wipe all mobs on sight. Although there are some other PTs out there, our BRD did fantastic job winning most of pulls. I guess we can chain up to 26 in this place if this place isn't crowded at all but the ghost (Lemures) often interrupts the chain.
Chaining monsters like that is no big accomplishment (21 is impressive), ive done it before too. It can be fun and something to brag about to friends, but 180~ exp you have to admit is nothing fantastic considering you can get the same experience from a chain 2 easily with half as much work. And how easy are chain 2's compared to chain 21's?
It depends on the hunting place as Shiia stated. In fact, the highest base XP we (a PT of LV75) can get at KRT is 126. It isn't anything like chaining 2 IT++ mobs that give us 160+ XP in 4 minutes. We fast chain these (max LV82) ghosts and skeltons until we wipe the area.

I, of course, know what's important is how much XP we can get per hour, not how many chains we get. However, this (http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/KRT.gif) couldn't be done without that wonderful BRD's effort, I believe.

Look at the interval between battles - only 10.7 seconds. He never failed to sing Madrigal + Minuet and Ballad I + Ballad II. He even helped stats curing.

Pulling isn't basically BRD's job, I agree but in most "merit-point (or Meripo)" PTs, BRDs I've seen often go pulling mobs. They aren't asked to do but they do it spontaneously.

[Darkedge]

http://theunityls.com/chain20.jpg

From TheUnityLS, On Caitsith.

I don't know if the BRD pulled, maybe if he see's this pic he can talk about it.

[Justarius]

Sorry Laehn, I'm gonna have to pull the elitist "I'm 75 on a few jobs" card on you and say you havent partied with what I define as a "good" BRD or "good" RDM if you still believe that. Bards are argubly the best pullers in RoMeave since everything aggros to magic, and weapons are easy to lullaby. Seeing as you ARE a BRD yourself, you need to maybe think outside the cookie cutter mold you are squeezed in and try something new since you obviously dont have a chance to watch a skilled BRD in action (never been in a 2 brd pt ever). When you get 6 75s in KRT in full pimp god gears and another party arrives, it is best to just camp outside in the spawn area to get pulls. RDM pulling with Silence in KRT works too.

Just's best LimitPoint PT (6 x 75)

NIN, RNG, RNG, BRD, RDM, BLM up @ Ullikummi room. If you're only PT there, and someone pre-pulls (ie - BRD) you can reach some amazing numbers. And if Ulli pops, just kite around the tele until its dead for an extra half a Byakko pop.

[Icemage]

Originally posted by WishMaster3K
thanx for answering the question with attitude, Icemage...

And while Bards have stuff like Accuracy+ songs, Regen Songs, Strength+ songs, I was refering to the songs that seem to do the same things Debuffs from a RDM do.

You didnt have to be rude about it, i KNOW I'm 31, and everyone else can see that. Oh, and how would me getting Refresh and Convert make the competition Worse, if thats what your implying. :confused:

The only things bards and RDM do similarly is Dispel/Finale and Refresh/Ballad (and even there there are major differences between the way they go about doing these things).

Yes, everyone "could" look at your level and see your level, but the average reader simply isn't going to pay attention to that detail (hence why I pointed it out). Your question regarding Convert and Refresh and their pertinence to party dynamics is indicative of why I took issue with your previous post. The fact is, the conclusions that you have come to are not based on actual experience - merely speculation, and in this case, very inaccurate speculation, which detracts from the discussion.

"Typical" party post-55 looks like:
Tank
Melee
Melee
Support
Healer
Nuker

Each slot can generally only be filled by specific jobs.

Support slot's primary job is MP recovery, and is only fillable by RDM or BRD. It's possible to remove the Healer slot and add a second Support, but it's not often done, and thus, red mages and bards generally compete for the same role in the majority of parties at 55+.


Icemage

[Laehn]

(brd stuff)
Im not saying brds cant pull, or that its not something ive never done, or that it cant be advantageous over other jobs pulling. But point in fact, those rare instances where it is better for the brd to pull are few and far between and not applicable for generalized discussion. Ive said before, ive pulled before, and ive done a very good job most the time ive done it. Songs can be an effective tool to pulling because its not considered magic and it can often give you extra time to finish your current enemy or run. That doesnt mean im a puller or that im better at it than other jobs. It just means that it can be effective in certain situations.

Of course no behavior is appropriate in all situations. Every situation is going to be different and require critical thinking and some decisions to be made. But you can still make generalizations that can be applied to how you can expect things to work. That should be something everyone takes into consideration when discussing anything. There are ALWAYS exceptions.

I could make a generalization about whms being super melee or rdms being excellent tanks if i only took into account a few cases where that was true, but it would be foolish of me to argue that those statements are true in general when there are an overwhelming number of cases where those jobs dont even play those roles in parties. That doesnt mean i have to say whms are NEVER good melees or that rdms are NEVER good tanks, but it just means that for the most part, theyre not. Other jobs do those roles better and thats why you dont see many rdms tanking or whms meleeing or brds pulling in the 2-3 years the games been out.


My personal play style has nothing to do with this. I dont hide how i play my job or my experience in my job. I dont claim to know it all, but im certain i know more than someone whos never played brd long. And honestly, wether i play cookie cutter or not doesnt really matter when being a brd. Ive seen perfectly good brds who wear all melee equipment and like to swing their swords. Fact of the matter is, as long as you sing as a brd, you can do a fantastic job. You may not be super great, but thats just your small opinion of the person and doesnt really mean much to anyone except yourself. Stats and equipment can help, but they wont make or break a brd unlike other jobs and you can play brd in a number of ways with great success. Go read through the brd forum and youll see that repeated more than once.

Brd isnt as much a matter of skill or tactics, or money and equipment, or having good company, its about dedication and persistance. And i hope i showed how persistant i can be here. That should give everyone a good idea of how much effort i put into being a good brd :) Just like anyone with their favorite job.

Brds should have never been brought up on this thread anyways. Sorry for getting sidetracked.
(/end brd stuff)

Rdms rule, elitests drool.

Rdms have nothing to compete with from brds, and brds have nothing to compete with from rdms. They share i think 3 vital spells, and thats it. Slow, dispel, and refresh and thats it. And only one is really common, slow. Refresh is single target, ballad is aoe, ST and AOE both have advantages and disadvantages. Finale and dispel are opposite elements first of all, and finale has a horrible cool down time. Songs dont take mp and take a long time to cast, rdm spells cast quickly and they all cost mp. One song cuts a brds effectiveness in half. Rdms can cast as many spells as they want. Brd can increase def attack and evasion. A rdm can decrease defense attack and evasion on the enemy. As for oher jobs. Rdms have the same types of abilities of most the mages and even some melee proficiency (some doesnt mean exceptional), but no job comes close to the same arsenal a rdm has available.

Icemage is right. Thats how typical parties look. Its easy to break from typical and still get excellent exp no doubt. You can easily go without a whm for instance and put in another support job of a different kind for example and get 6mp/3sec. Or you could just put all blms in the backline and stuff would die so fast you wouldnt need healing or any mp refresh. Or you could have 5 smns and a brd or 5 rngs and a blm. If you think it can work, it probably can. Point is, rdms and brds dont compete anymore than rdm and whms or wars and drk or whms and smns. Dont forget that you can easily get a similar effect to ballad or refresh with some juice.

[Justarius]

If you're cookie cutter and you know it, raise your hand!

oh, nice sig.

[Laehn]

C'est en forgeant qu'on devient forgeron.

Its ok to be wrong. Nobody expects you to know everything.

Remember, its just a game. No need to be inflamatory about it. Take a deep breath and tell yourself its just a game. Have fun with it. It was made for fun, so dont get angry. :)

/comfort

[Justarius]

Nice to know I helped a fellow bard see the light on pulling. :spin: But if you still are under the delusion RDM and BRD do not compete for the same role in an xp party.. well, I dont think anyone can help you there. Now if only word could get out to the rest of the BRDs to try something new instead of blindly following a faq someone wrote back when they were level 55, then stickied to a forum. :( They are great guides for the early levels and just in general, but many things change once you reach 75, and new situations arise that arent written down in some FAQ.

Please stay away from writing any FAQs anytime soon
:spin: :spin: :spin:

[Shiia]

75 maybe the last of level grinding (not merit) but its the begining of trying new things. Bit OT: The only thing sucks being 75 is farming ahrimans using level 5 pertify -_-;

[Laehn]

This is no longer an intelligent argument. Youve provided only one circumstantial piece of evidence hardly enough to make any conclusive claims. You yourself say lvling at 75 is different and ill agree. Ive said that before. But lvling is only one part of the game and lvl 75 is only one lvl in the game. You cant deny everything else that proves otherwise during a brds life and still hope to have a conclusive argument. I never denied that brds COULDNT do it, i willingly admitted to doing it myself. But I would never go as far as slapping a generalization on a job based on only one piece of situational evidence thats not even first hand.

And im flattered that rdms feel like competing, but i assure everyone, that you have more to fear from your own kind than brds when it comes to competition. You can survive without refresh and you can sub rdm and use dispel just as good or sub brd and get ballad 1 and finale. No job is in direct competition with one another because there are no identical jobs. If you compete with a brd for his job, youre not going to win, because you will never be a brd. And if brd tries competiting with a rdm for his job, same thing will happen to them.

[Lasareth]

Shiia:

This thread's been OT for a while >_>;

I don't know how BRD got into this situation, but whatever. I'm content in the replies given that actually pertain to the topic (RDM vs NIN enfeebles if you guys don't know). Thanks to those guys, and for the rest of the topic ---> :confused:

[Laehn]

I came here to support rdms. And discourage people from feeling like they need to compete against brds or any job. My first post is completely on topic. Ive been trying my hardest to shut justarius up about brd stuff, but i cant. Im sorry. I dont want people spreading lies about my job on other boards. Each of my posts have had some on topic material. Ive been honestly trying to provide further to the on topic conversation and I hope that effort shows. Again im sorry if my responses to justarius' off topic lies hijacked the thread. It was never my intention. I only wanted to dispute the false off topic comments made earlier.

That said, we can go back on topic now.

[Justarius]

If you really think a RDM and BRD dont compete for a parb, you must be very deluded. This has nothing to do with being level 75 or the difference situations that arise when exping at 75

Since all you seem to understand is cookie cutter, I'll try and use stuff you understand. All typical EXP parties after 50 need

1-Tank
2-Damage
3-Damage
4-Healer
5-MP Regen
6-open

There are only 2 jobs that fit role #5. Guess which ones they are? If you still dont know, Ill tell you. RDM and BRD. Now if you think my saying RDM and BRD dont compete for a spot... you have problems. Nice people just dont want to point it out to you. Obviously PTS that decide to use 2 spots for MP regen are lacking damage. But those are not the norm. If you'd like to cry on this board as well as the BRD board, go ahead. But everyone knows you're wrong. BRD is the easiest job to level to 75 with, so obviously some "less expierenced players" get to 75.

ps- this post does not include exotic parties that I'm sure you've never heard of - BLMpts, RNG pts, MNK pts, or *shocked* BST pts.

[sekaran]

The last 4-5 PTs I have been in don't even have a WHM for a main healer.. usually it ends up being me, the RDM. Pending the formation of your PT, theres competition at the main healer slot by RDMs and WHMs and competition for support from RDMs and BRDs.. best of both worlds, RDM+BRD in a PT ^^;

[Raineer]

NIN + RNGx3 + BRD + RDM on darters = O.O

NIN + DDx2 + BRD + WHM + RDM on anything else = O.O

I love Bards, I think I shall refuse to party without one until I move to another job. I only have 6 levels left on RDM and I want to enjoy them. Nothing like a good bard tossing threnrodies and stacked etudes so I can nuke the piss out of chains 5 and 6, and actually HAVE PEOPLE SAY "BLM who?"

^_^

[Zempten]

Um..... seriously......I don't see what the deal is but RDM + BRD is not bad as you make it seem Justarius.

So it's 6 MP ticks, what's wrong with that? MP is flexible. It can be used for Healing, Nuking, Enhancing, or Enfeebling. There is nothing wrong with having 2 MP refresh sources.

So a PT that used 2 spots for RDM and BRD is lacking damage....hm...... now that's interesting. According to your previous post a PT consists of the following...

1-Tank
2-Damage
3-Damage
4-Healer
5-MP Regen
6-open

Well if that's the case, why can't RDM fit into slot 4 and BRD into slot 5? RDMs are flexible, we can heal , we can nuke, we can enfeeble, we can basically be your WHM without Raise 2 and higher and Cure 5 and Regen 2 and higher spells.

I do not see how the PT is "lacking damage" as you put it. BRDs increase attack (Minuet) and accuracy (Madgrial). RDM decreases evasion (Gravity) and defense (Dia 2). If it is a NIN tanking then I"m sure he can Slow, Paralyze, and Blind and BRD can use his/her Elegy as well. If it is PLD tanking then you will need someone to do the Slow, Paralyze, and sometimes Blind.

Competition for RDM and BRD? No I do not believe it. I believe any smart PT will take both if it is avaliable. They work hand in hand not against each other.

[Justarius]

You guys dont understand what im arguing. I'm not saying a pt with BRD and RDM isnt good. I mentioned RDM&BRD being a great combo in certain xp areas many times. The point I'm trying to make and get across is that RDM and BRD compete for a part slot much the same was a DRK and MNK compete for a damage slot, and NIN & PLD compete for the tank spot. I'm just tyring to point out to cookie-cutter Laehn that BRD and RDM are the only 2 classes that provide MP regen, and since every xp party needs mp regen, that they compete for the same spot. Since s/he thinks they do not.

Comprende? Obvioulsy having a BRD and RDM in the same party works, but if the party is 5/6 and lacking mp regen... that's competition. And most "smart" parties would pick BRD in that situation.

:rolleyes:

[Zempten]

Understood, but RDM doesn't have to compete just for MP regen. We can also pickup WHM duties as well just without the Regen 2+, Raise 2+ and Cure 5 spells (of course with a PT that actually has an idea of what they are doing)