Which jobs have gotten nerfed badly?

[BoogleyBoogley]

I decided the other day that Lineage II blows my asshole, so I think I'm coming back to FFXI. Can some people tell me what jobs got badly nerfed since the expansion and all the patches? I haven't played in like..6 months. I'm starting from scratch and I wanted to know if certain jobs just suck beyond belief now. Can someone help me out? (Btw, I'm only interested in Melee jobs).

Thanks. <3

[Mai Ikari]

You forget, this is FFXI. All the jobs are still good, though DRG gets the least love.

[Coinspinner]

Melee in general got nerfed early this year... that's really about all I can think of.

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

Originally posted by Coinspinner
Melee in general got nerfed early this year... that's really about all I can think of.

If you mean the tp nerf ya its true it effected too many jobs who Use multi hits ws alot and most jobs do use multihits ws and that Update lowered there damage

I believe that update lowered some jobs total damage
Rampge - dancing edge - raging fists - penta - guillotine this Weapon skills not cool anymore XD

But DRK and Rng that patch kinda make us more powerful cuz this 2 jobs dont use multihits ws anyway

[BoogleyBoogley]

Ahh too vague. ;_; lol I forgot so much about WS's and shyt. God I feel like I'm fking n00b-God again..this sucks. Can someone tell me specifically which melee jobs aren't sought out anymore and which are?

DRGs still have to wait for hours on end to get a PT?
PLDs still the best tankers overall?
THFs still yoko everything? (erm backstab+trick I meant) And are they still always in groups?
WARs still rarely played past 40?
DRKs still ignored for groups?
NINs: CAN SOMEONE TELL ME IF WE NIN's GOT NERFED?!?! I heard our blinks did..
Someone please answer this...I'm so confused. I dunno what job I'm finna be..Please help. </3 ;_;

[Asurasan]

To sum it up:

Tanks: Still getting the PT invites like always. This list is not the ultimate arbitrator of "Who can tank and who cant", just the more common choice. We had a War/rng tank in Onzozo a while back with no problems what so ever.

PLD: Still getting PT invites, although most people seem to prefer a Ninja over Pld in most exp party cases as PLD deals very little damage and actually "Does" get hit. Ninja seem to allow parties to chain faster ect. They can stick hate like no ones buisness.

Ninja: Gotta be willing to shell out their bling in order to be "Uber"(but who dosent?). The Blink nerf was more or less directed at people subbing ninja. It only slightly effected most ninja players.

Misc DD: The area we all love and hate to be in. Most people in this catagory will be looking for parties quite a while anyway.

War: War/nin can deal some insane damage, I have been utterly impressed by this combo since 55. The equipment they have access to is literally "Insane". I wish I had some parser logs to post here to show the kind of damage they deal. War in general gets passed up for being a "Core" class, but its getting much more attention lately due to the sudden influx of people picking the job back up.

Thf and Drk: Someone will stone be for putting these two classes together, but past 60, they really seem to share the same job. Trick your damage to the tank. But Drk does not have to rely on someone turning the monster before their weaponstyle. If DRK subs war their damage is unparalelled... But this also tends to get them in a bad spot with all their hate inducing abilities.

Drg: Ehh, well you said it. I agree with most that they could use some type of upgrade. Their main problem seems to be they lack a really class defining feature besides their jumps. Their equip selection is rather sub par as well.

Sam: Super sekksi TP whoreage(Sorry, I am a bit biased). Not the job to put up the huge numbers, but the quantity of their WS's seem to keep them competing as long as decent equipment is supplied. Skillchain "Glue" for most parties. But throw 2 Sam and a Black Mage at a problem and see how long it takes for it to go away ^^. Although with some recent playstyles showing up, people with Thf sub and good equipment people are throwing Gekko and Kasha bombs that break 1k damage.


Rng: They push the buttons that makes the monsters fall down. Damage dealing champs. Nuff said. Most of the time they dont need to look for parties as long as some of the other DD's.

Mnk: A real dark horse of the DD genre. Parsers dont lie, these guys do some serious damage over time. Yet their shortcoming is where they stand in the Skillchain chart. Lots of Fusion's and Fragmentations come from these guys most of the game. Until they hit 65 of course and Dragon kick makes everyone happy ^^.

That about sums it up for the melee, hope that gives you some insight as to were most classes stand 60+. Good luck choosing.

[Macht]

Basically if you look at it were every Melee was they are all still more or less the same. The DRGs and SMNs seems to of been the two that are getting much more attentions from SE. The DRGs got a WS upgraded and can now use some throwing items.

They also made the DRGs wyvern do the jump with them so hate is shedded off of the DRG and his wyvern (That is kind of a Win/Lose change, DRGs can now get hate off their wyvern if need be but now it's a little tougher to put hate on the wyvern). Even with these changes the DRGs position hasn't moved to much, but they don't seem to be ignored as much as I've seen parties do before.

If anything in the future updates I kind of think that DRGs might get a lot of attention from the developers. Especially since recently most of what the DRGs have been getting seem to be just tid-bits, something to sort of say "We haven't forgotten you and will be getting to you soon".

[Omena]

Actually, THF and DRK work quite differently because while THF uses SATA to place hate on the tank, a DRK uses SATA in order to not get owned after a strong WS. A DRK's SATA without a WS is also quite pathetic.

[greysenn]

They also made the DRGs wyvern do the jump with them so hate is shedded off of the DRG and his wyvern (That is kind of a Win/Lose change, DRGs can now get hate off their wyvern if need be but now it's a little tougher to put hate on the wyvern). Even with these changes the DRGs position hasn't moved to much, but they don't seem to be ignored as much as I've seen parties do before

I was under the understanding that the wyvern super jumped too, to get the heck out of the way of AE's, but kept hate.

They also got some nice gear upgrades with the latest patch, although I haven't seen much of the gear going around yet.

[fuz]

Originally posted by Omena
Actually, THF and DRK work quite differently because while THF uses SATA to place hate on the tank, a DRK uses SATA in order to not get owned after a strong WS. A DRK's SATA without a WS is also quite pathetic.

They work pretty much the same. For thf, they require backup tank to voke to SA onto the main tank. This is mostly fine for the mages, but now that backup tank has to deal with the extra hate he just generated. Voke is worth maybe 200-250 damage, so it heavily negates the regular SA+TA damage at the begining of the battle, makes the backup tank very suceptible to turning the mob, and thus must hold back some damage. It is particularly bad if the SA+TA doesn't go as planned (lag, placement issues, adds) or hasn't recharged in time which makes things a real hassle.

The only reason the pt does this is because thf without SA+TA damage is pitiful. Most PTs can get away just fine completely without the initial SA+TA, even ones with nin or war tanks. (The nin in my static prefers not to PT with thf because of it.) It might have been the best thing going at mid levels, but at higher levels it's obsolete thinking leftover from the 30-50s when SA+TA was much more powerful than anything else durring that time. So it doesn't matter if drk's SA+TA isn't powerful... It's not needed because drk hits a lot harder in normal melee.

As for not getting owned by skillchain closing, if drk subbed war, the closing chain woudn't be very strong, so hate would be easy enough to pull off. Even then, while subbing war drk is normaly skillchain opener, not closer since the low WS damage will not take advantage of the skillchain effect damage. No need for drk to sub thf to "save themselves", especially if there is a thf or /thf in the PT already.

But with drk/thf or thf main, it doesn't matter, they would both get owned if they closed the SC with high damage--or for that matter, anyone but a tank would if it was untricked. Also any thf or sub thf would have lower dot damage, so they all resort to the 1 hit power of SA+TA+WS, and the freedom of the blm to MB at full power to make up for it. It's the defining role of a skillchain closer, and it's the same job for all of them.

[BoogleyBoogley]

Thanks tons you guys. I hope this info helps me out a bunch. Seems like much hasn't changed. God I'm so out of the loop..forgot all about how trick worked with the sub-tank and shyt til' about 5 minutes ago. :o I might go THF...maybe NIN again../shutter. Well anyways thanx everyone..I hope I don't get stuck playing the job that's 100% wrong for me again. ::cough:: DRG. :spin:

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

Originally posted by Omena
Actually, THF and DRK work quite differently because while THF uses SATA to place hate on the tank, a DRK uses SATA in order to not get owned after a strong WS. A DRK's SATA without a WS is also quite pathetic.

To be honest with ya
Thf > drk lv 15~>59
Thf =~ drk lv 60~65
Drk > thf 65>75

SATA at the start not cool anymore its annoying and nobody like it realy! stupid SE they nerf SATA i was main THF before that patch but then i switched to main drk (still love main thf :dead: )

[Hisdon]

thing I find intresting is even with THF sub (which horribly gimps my per hit dmg ><;) I can do comparable dmg to other melee's, and even outdmg them...I'm really curious how DRK/WAR would do at my lvl on an exp mob, but doubt I'll ever get to test that :P

[Coinspinner]

By "melee" I meant the act of hitting things with weapons, not "melee classes". I wanted to lvl WHM one day and learn Hexa but there's no point now.

[BoogleyBoogley]

lol thanks guys. I'm going to ask something really dumb...is SATA basically trick attacking? Or?? I feel so out of the loop the only things I can think about now are Mortal Blow and Backstab/Deadlyblow...Damn you Lineage II. :( So can someone verify what SATA stands for? lol And are THFs pretty much completely nerfed now? 'Cuz I was thinking about going THF as my main or SAM as my main but I just saw the whole multi-hitting WS's got nerfed or something. So are SAMs and THFs still pretty damn good in groups? I need advice here. ;_; Someone help me out please. (everyone i used to know ingame quit..i checked my POL/FFXI messages and they were all like "Hey c ya Epona I'm quitting. It was fun while it lasted!", or "C ya this game blows I'm going to EQ2/WoW". So I'm really out of the fucking loop right about now and I dun' got any of my importer friends to help me out anymore. Someone? Help me prease? :eek: :eek:

[fuz]

Thf getting the shaft as drk gets spinning slash has been around for a very long time. So it's nothing new, but the information is much more widespread now.

Thf isn't nerfed per se, but like drg who is powerful in the early levels, their power dwindles as the levels go up and they don't get anything to compensate for the things that other classes can do.

SA+TA stands for Sneak Attack + Trick Attack. Unlike L2 where mortal blow is powerful just by itself, SA+TA is weak when used seperate, so they must be stacked to be of any use. However trick attacking on anyone but a tank is a no. This is where the messy part of needing a backup tank temporarily take hate so the thf can stand behind the main tank with both facing the mob's back, while the backup tank takes the heat (hopefuly) for a short while.

At lower levels this can pull off 200-400 damage every 30 sec, not to mention stacking it with weapon skills. This is extremely powerful, maybe even overpowered. Yet it peaks in usefulness at lvl 60, and it takes a quick dive in power at 65/66. Past that point, things aren't very good for thf. One could say the same for drg--unquestionably powerful at low levels, but lacking at high to endgame levels. They don't suck, but they aren't a PT's first choice either.

If you want a melee dd that's useful from 1-75, go sam, drk, or war. Thf and drg... looks like SE is ignoring the problem.

[Macht]

Well the thing of DRKs and doing a THFs jobs I've still heard sort of debateable things about it with some of the DRKs. Even though the combination lets them do nice damage the accuracy problems with GSs seems to make for a deturant to a DRK taking a THFs place.

As I understand it a good THF can still gather TP faster then what a DRK with a GS can do so they'll be able to get out decent amounts of damage more consistently. With the accuracy problems with GS a DRK getting to do spinning slash makes them less reliable as hate control were a THF even without a WS is still reliable enough for hate control.

EDIT:

Remember sub THF only gets critical bonus for SA, which really isn't going to be much so they are heavily relying on WS. A THF however gets a multiplier damage bonus for SA so they don't have that reliance the WS just ends up being a bonus.

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by BoogleyBoogley
NINs: CAN SOMEONE TELL ME IF WE NIN's GOT NERFED?!?! I heard our blinks did..
Someone please answer this...I'm so confused. I dunno what job I'm finna be..Please help. </3 ;_;

In theory it should be more damaging to subbed NIN but in reality it's just as bad for us. I've got some limited experience with the nerf, from two exp mobs, scorpions and rabbits. Scorpions remain easy, their AoE takes images but even if you're bare their attack speed is so slow that you can put Ichi up and be ok.

Rabbits, on the other hand, are now bad news, at least when they're high IT. I believe I died 4 times in 2 sessions to these in the Tree and the Cape. Maybe it was just because I'm not used to their attack speed or whatever, but they were really tough.

I also believe skeleton's AoE pulls down ALL shadows now, although I can't verify that.

[Macht]

The change wasn't to huge, it just knocks the NINs abilities with Utsusemi down a little bit. Kind of like a tweak to it.

See if I remember that changes it's something like:

Focused Special Attacks (Remove a certain number of shadows, depending on Ninjitsu)

Area Special Attacks (Remove all shadows)

Area Spells (shadows are ignored damage goes directly to you)

Debuffing/Effect spells (shadows ignored effect goes directly to you)

Its something like that, so basically monsters like scorpions, flies, rabbits, bombs, goblins, yagudo, and other monsters that have AoEs of a physical type are a little more dangerous. Monster with AoEs of a spell type their spells are mostly going to just go right through the shadows it won't take them away.

So some monsters will be harder to tank but others will have almost no difference with the exception of more Shihei used.

[fuz]

Originally posted by Macht
Well the thing of DRKs and doing a THFs jobs I've still heard sort of debateable things about it with some of the DRKs. Even though the combination lets them do nice damage the accuracy problems with GSs seems to make for a deturant to a DRK taking a THFs place.

As I understand it a good THF can still gather TP faster then what a DRK with a GS can do so they'll be able to get out decent amounts of damage more consistently. With the accuracy problems with GS a DRK getting to do spinning slash makes them less reliable as hate control were a THF even without a WS is still reliable enough for hate control.

EDIT:

Remember sub THF only gets critical bonus for SA, which really isn't going to be much so they are heavily relying on WS. A THF however gets a multiplier damage bonus for SA so they don't have that reliance the WS just ends up being a bonus.

The thing about more hate control is that it isn't need at higher levels. All that is needed is the last WS closing the lvl3 skillchain to be both powerful, and tricked onto the tank--which many melees can do at this point.

And as I said before, the critical only aspect of thf subbed isn't of concern when the melee, be it drk, sam, monk, etc, all have much higher dot to make up for it. The dancing around of hate with regular SA+TA is unecessary when a drk can just pile on regular hits which are much stronger than thf main to more than make up for the lack of a powerful SA+TA with thf subbed. There are people that prefer not to deal with a backup tank pulling hate for a thf to setup SA+TA and draining cures.

Not only that, but the other melees bring extra abilities to the table that a thf doesn't have.

As for drk's building tp slow, it's very true--partucularly with thf sub. Drk has no active or natural attribute to the job that lets them gain tp faster, be it double attack, tp store, jumps, focus, etc, a drk can only rely on normal attacks. The spellcasting of abs-xx, stun, MB, etc only serves to slow tp gain even more. However, the rumor of drk missing often is overblown. A well equipded drk at 60 (where A+ and A- seperate) will have some 39-44 acc, and much more when the full thick set arrives. Wiff fests still happen, but they are no longer completely damming. I currently hit some 70-80% without a bard and a greatsword. Even casting dual abs-xx and a stun here and there, I keep up with tp gain quite well... maybe a little behind, but not much.

[Macht]

Well I don't know, got about 10 more levels before seeing that for myself. Still looking at how often I get to do a skillchain when paired with a DRK and paired with a THF it seems THF is much more frequent and better choice. Also a thief that relies only on their dagger for damage after doing their SATA isn't much of a great THF either.

They do get some decent range attack items to make them a bit more damage worthy still though guess I'd have to see. So far I still remain unimpressed with some peoples statements on whats better.

[Xyphere]

from what I understand the whole multi hit WS nerf killed everyone...I know that the extra TP from Vorpal would have been pretty sweet if I had the ability to use it before the nerf

[fuz]

Originally posted by Macht
Well I don't know, got about 10 more levels before seeing that for myself. Still looking at how often I get to do a skillchain when paired with a DRK and paired with a THF it seems THF is much more frequent and better choice. Also a thief that relies only on their dagger for damage after doing their SATA isn't much of a great THF either.

They do get some decent range attack items to make them a bit more damage worthy still though guess I'd have to see. So far I still remain unimpressed with some peoples statements on whats better.

Er... I'd rather not have people giving advice on a level they're not at. :P I've already stated, specifically that thf is powerful durring the mid and lower levels, which I assume you're at. At 65/66, a pt needs not to perform more than 1 round of WS if setup correctly (almost instant death), so the frequency of SA+TAs and faster TP gain from thf main, is not a particularly valuable trait. Especially when a sam/thf can gain tp... on a whole different level if you really want skillchains, now.

I've never seen a thf use a bow/xbow for damage in an exp pt either. But I have seen sam/rng loaded with racc, and they are already pretty gimpy on ITs, so I can't imagine how a thf could do any better, especialy with nin as the popular sub.

[HeLLb0rN]

Once you get in the 60's it usually comes down to either having a drk/thf or a thf/??? in the party for hate placement purposes (also sam/thf, drg/thf or what have you, but drk/thf most commonly). However in the past few hourly rounds of exping I've come to favor partying with a drk/thf with my thf/nin.

We were doing some testing on the initial SATA on the tank, and I was almost doubling the damage the drk's SATA was doing so we decided the drk would cast absorb/drain whatever on it to pull aggro then I would proceed to SATA on to the tank. Come weaponskill time, that was the fun part, I'd SA+Shark Bite hate on to myself, and the drk/thf would SATA+Cross Reaper on to the ninja to make distortion - and if the nin busted out Blade: Ten (or pld with Swift Blade) we'd get a darkness renkei afterwards.

All I have to say is it's nice to be able to combine the efforts of both "hate-placement" jobs into one formidable force. :thumbsup: