Dual Wield for THF

[Cali]

As some of you may know, Dual wielding a sword and dagger gives Fast Blade an extra hit, a katana and a sword gives Blade:Rin an extra hit... How about THF? Dagger Dagger give an extra hit to any WS at all?

How do you test the extra hit? Just look at your TP gained after using the WS, it's even easier now with multi-hit WS nerf. I could test it out on my own, but I'd prefer to have an answer before I spend my money on the THF gears... so.. sorry for asking any THF to experimenting this for me.. ^^;;

My THF is only 22 >.<;

Thanks in advance.

Edit:
Question 2:
I am planning to have a macro for SATA on its own, with a wait and /p SATA ready; a macro for SATA WS; and a macro to tell the skillchain partner(s) that they can start skillchain.... is that good enough? Do I need more macro?

[Tokitoki]

Fast Blade is always 2 hits, Retsu is always 2 hits, Viper Bite is always 2 hits... I dunno what you're looking for :sweat:
For second question, i dont even bother with the /p Ready cr*p. Its really just spam and you use it at beginning, WS, and possible once inbetween depending on lvl. The ready stuff isnt nessecary, just make a SA/TA and an SA/TA/WS macro. For low lvls keep alerts in both, for higher lvls you dont need an alert in the plain SA/TA macro.

[Lmnop]

when a warrior uses Rampage, it hits up to 5 times. When a war/nin uses Rampage, it hits 6 times. I believe this is what you're referring to? If it's true in the first place about the extra hit, then yes, thf's Viper Bite will hit 3 times, etc. However, this will be a very small hit. just like a normal swing. I'd doubt you would even gain Trick Attack bonus to damage. An extra 5 damage is damage though.

[Tokitoki]

>.>

I have both VB and Dancing Edge... With dancing edge i get the max amount of TP for 5 hits, never any more. For VB i dont get any more TP than 2 hits... Ive never even heard of this before

[DelennFFXI]

* Dual Wield provides an extra normal hit
at full TP gain (usually 5). Therefore, my full Dancing Edge returns 5 + (4x1) + 5 for 14 TP (provided the mob is still alive).

* For a good party, you only need two /p macros
One, /p (| Sneak Attack |) X --------> TP=<tp>.
Two, /p (| Sneak Attack |) O (| Ready to Start Skillchain |).
More /p's are usually unnecessary and just add to battle spam.

* Fast Blade is 2 hits

* Blade: Retsu is 2 hits

* Viper Bite is 1 hit
with a 2x attack value multiplier

You can check yourself with TP versus Too Weak mobs to mitigate accuracy concerns.

Hope that helps,

[guyincorporated]

It is true. Dual-wield DE should get you 10TP minimum (1/5 hits = 5tp, plus and additional 5tp for the bonus hit).

Single-hit DE gives 9tp maximum (5tp for first hit, 4 tp for 4 extra hits).

[guyincorporated]

Originally posted by DelennFFXI

You can check yourself with TP versus Too Weak mobs to mitigate accuracy concerns.

Hope that helps,

Note that if you finish off the mob with your weaponskill, you don't get the extra 5tp from the 2nd swing.

[DelennFFXI]

Hmm... I'll double check the extra hit idea the next time I log in with 2x Archer's Knives against Batallia Downs tigers (I shouldn't be able to one shot them... I think).

There's the possibility of a an attack sneaking in during the long Dancing Edge animation to add unexpected TP.

[DelennFFXI]

Originally posted by guyincorporated
Note that if you finish off the mob with your weaponskill, you don't get the extra 5tp from the 2nd swing.
Hence the "(provided the mob is still alive)." ;)

Archer's Knives are 11 dmg. Hopefully that'll help keep the mob alive >.>

[Cali]

What should I use though? I was thinking Dagger + Sword(for better damage, and I think dagger + sword look nicer >.< ), but I never seen any THF go by that combo, does Dagger + Dagger add the extra hit too?

Sorry for mixing up Rin and Retsu, haven't played NIN since it got to lv19, you know, the cost thing >.>;

Edit: Use Onion dagger to reduce damage? :spin:

[kuroitsuru]

well from 24-33 it's nice to main hand sword and off hand dagger so that you can use SATA Fast Blade (very powerful whereas dagger ws arent so strong until Viper Bite). Keeping dagger in the offhand allows you to keep it skilled up so you can get Viper Bite right away when you reach 33. The problem is THF has a horrible skill rating with sword (a D I believe). This brings up a lot of concerns with accuracy, so at 33 I would recommend switching to double dagger if you're going to continue dual weilding.

I personally switched to thf/war @33 for the berserk because the dual weild 1 trait does not make your attacks faster. I did not feel the small bonuses from an extra weapon would benefit me more than the small increase in str, vit, and hp from warrior and the berserk JA. I have heard that at 46 it's worth bringing back dual weild for 2x bone knife +1 (+5 acc and +5 atk each). I stayed with /war and am currently level 55. At 50 you would get the dual weild 2 trait which DOES lower the delay 15%, but I static with a bard so gaining tp isn't much of an issue, I prefer the higher dmg that /war provides.

I'm working on my ninja right now though (level 15 currently) because I will need it for pulling faster mobs like raptors and toramas who will hit me no matter how good my pull was. I am hoping to get my hands on a hornet needle to use in the off hand when dual weilding (150 delay) to make my attacks as fast as possible.

[Mithrael]

I'm about 98% certain Duel Weild does not add an extra hit.

Normal TP gain from a weapon skill is:

Normal_TP + Additional_Hits


when you are using duel weild, tp gain is:

Normal_TP * 2 + (Additional_Hits - 1)


Source:

"An issue concerning the accumulation of TP with weapon skills that consist of multiple strikes (i.e. Combo, Penta Thrust, etc.) has been corrected.

TP will be accumulated as usual for that weapon type on the first strike (first two strikes for hand-to-hand attacks or when wielding two weapons), with each subsequent strike accumulating 1 TP.
Accordingly, enemies who are the targets of multiple-strike weapon skills will only gain TP from the first strike (first two strikes for hand-to-hand attacks or when wielding two weapons).
Also, all elemental weapon skills, except for Starlight and Moonlight (which affect only the wielder or party members), will now accumulate TP when used."

http://www.playonline.com/comnewsus/200404226037.html

What delay dagger are you using delenn?

[Ixaera]

When you dual wield with a multi-hit weaponskill, the first hit is actually BOTH weapons hitting, so you get tp back from the first hit as if a regular two-hit attack round had gone, and then 1% per remaining hit.

When I dual wield my dagger/sword, I get 10% tp back per attack round. When I hit DE with this combo (or with dagger/dagger, yes) I receive 14% tp back. If DE finishes the mob off before the final hit, I still get 10+ tp back so long as both the first hits land.

You will only get less than 10% back if one of the first hits misses. (Though this can sometimes be deceiving as triple attack can proc during DE -- I have gotten as much as 18% back from it on a too weak Yagudo.) Be careful when paying attention to DE return tp as if the mob hits you, you will receive tp from that also, so take it into account (and remember ninja and monk type mobs will give 1% to you per hit while other will give 2% due to subtle blow).

This does not appear to add any significant damage to the weaponskills in my experience.

[DelennFFXI]

Originally posted by Mithrael
I'm about 98% certain Duel Weild does not add an extra hit.

Normal TP gain from a weapon skill is:

Normal_TP + Additional_Hits


when you are using duel weild, tp gain is:

Normal_TP * 2 + (Additional_Hits - 1)
Sounds like we're both agreeing here. The extra hit (if there is, I haven't had time to test recently), is a normal hit, and not part of the WS.
Originally posted by Mithrael
What delay dagger are you using delenn?
Corsair's Knife (Dmg: 21, Delay: 206, Attack +10)
and
Garuda's Dagger (Dmg: 19, Delay: 183, Agi +3, Attack +7, Add. Effect: Silence)

If my math is correct, my per hit delay is 165.325*, which should be comfortably under the 5 TP floor. Hornetneedle might be nice, but I like the Attack +7. :cool:



* Per Hit Delay Calculation: 0.85(206 + 183) / 2 = 165.325

[Spider-Dan]

Viper Bite is one hit (even though the animation clearly shows two). Viper Bite returns the same TP as Wasp Sting; one hit's worth of TP when single wielded, two hits worth of TP when dual wielded (if mob doesn't die on first hit).

The corollary of the above is that Dual Wield always adds a hit to WSes (or at least, physical WSes). I'm 99% sure that for a normal SA, if you are Dual Wielding, both of your hits are guaranteed (you can see this easily with SA vs. Utsusemi). Logically speaking, this should hold true for WSes as well, which would mean that SATAVB should return 10% every time. I haven't tested that part yet, though.

I did a test to prove the first three statements quite a while ago. Pics:

Single wield Wasp Sting (5% TP return):
http://venomwebxxxxxx.com/vbtest/clp00042.jpg

Single wield Viper Bite (5% TP return):
http://venomwebxxxxxx.com/vbtest/clp00043.jpg

Another single wield Viper Bite (still 5%):
http://venomwebxxxxxx.com/vbtest/clp00044.jpg

Dual Wield Wasp Sting (10% return):
http://venomwebxxxxxx.com/vbtest/clp00045.jpg

Dual Wield Viper Bite (10% return):
http://venomwebxxxxxx.com/vbtest/clp00046.jpg

[Mithrael]

I suppose the difference is in semantics... but there is a difference for getting additional TP and "adding another hit." Adding another hit would make the Weapon Skill stronger, and there would no reason to sub anything other than NIN.

This holds true for WAR/NIN. While rampage may return more tp, it definitely does not increase Rampage's DMG by 1/5.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Mithrael
I suppose the difference is in semantics... but there is a difference for getting additional TP and "adding another hit." Adding another hit would make the Weapon Skill stronger, and there would no reason to sub anything other than NIN.

This holds true for WAR/NIN. While rampage may return more tp, it definitely does not increase Rampage's DMG by 1/5.

Err, actually it does increase the damage. By quite a bit (1/5th sounds right). That's why you see WAR/NINs with axes instead of WAR/THFs with axes.

There's also the fact that you can get 9 or 10 TP from Rampage (15 full hit) when dual wielding a sword and axe. Sword = 5 TP, Axe = 6 TP. This means that either the axe or the sword would have missed (9 TP= 5 TP (sword)+ 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + Axe miss, 10 TP= 6 TP (Axe) + 1 + 1+ 1 + 1 + Sword Miss)

And

http://www.pplsdbz.net/~zquestionmark/ffxi/sword.JPG

How do I get a sword skill up when using an axe WS unless the offhand weapon also has an attack?

[Mithrael]

Guess I'll have to take your word for it at this point. By Square's definition, it doesn't add a hit. I can't see any reason why they would intentionally falsefy the information, so it's either a mistake, or there is somethign else going one that isn't quite understood.

In my experience of partying with a THF since lv.40, THF/NIN weapon skills aren't higher than THF/WAR (usually war > nin).

In my experience of DRK/NIN, I don't do 1/5 less damage when I have a shield in one hand instead of another axe. Or similarly, I don't do 1/4 less with Vorpal Blade with Sword/Shield instead of Sword/Sword. However, I only tested that for an hour or two, and I wasn't as meticulous about keeping data written down back then. Guess I'll have to buy another darksteel axe and test it again.

As far as the skillup on sword, that's explained fine by square's explanation.

[imac2much]

This has always been something I've wondered about. Just like many people, I assumed that because of the extra TP gained, that corresponded to an extra hit in the WS... however, from that S-E answer, this can be debated. I'm not sure either way, as I've never actually "tested this", since most WS have such a variance in damage even if all hits connect that this is hard to tell.

Perhaps the best way to test this would be with a NIN/THF. On relatively weak creatures where our ATK and STR are much higher than the corresponding target's DEF and VIT, I think much of the damage variance of WS's (considering all hits connect), is the chance of critical hits on some swings. This might be totally wrong, but just my speculation. Perhaps the best way to test would be a NIN using a 1-hit 1-handed weapon WS with sneak attack, then repeat by adding another weapon in the offhand. Sneak attack guarantees a critical (x 1.25 damage), so one damage variable will at least be accounted for. My NIN is only 37 but I maybe I can test this on some evil mad sheep or something.

Examples of 1-hit physical WS of 1-handed weapons that stack with sneak attack that NIN/THF can use:
Dagger: Wasp Sting, Shadowstitch, Viper Bite
1h Sword: Flat Blade, Circle Blade (? not sure about AE WS)
Club: Brainshaker, Skullbreaker, True Strike
Katana: Blade: Rin, Blade: Ten

Hm I think that's it. I might try testing this sometime, but if someone else wants to jump the gun be my guest :sweat:

[Ixaera]

For the record I have both drk and nin at full sub level. When I exp with my set, I go as thf/drk.

A full hit DE (I get 9% back -- single weapon) with no job abilities activated besides SATA hits for ~700 on a sand cockatrice.

When I do other things, I take thf/nin for the flexibility. A full hit DE on thf/nin (14% back) does about 700 (my reference mob is ZM6 ants), usually slightly less than my thf/drk though not by much...due to the slightly decreased str and att, or possibly due to greater ant defense.

So, no, I think it's pretty clear the extra hit is *not* adding damage and if it is, it isn't enough to notice.

Something interesting though. Normally when I farm Yagudo, I take dagger/sword. DE (I don't SA it), does ~600 on a full hit. Last time, I decided swinging my club while farming would be a useful way to skill it up high enough for a skillup party. My skill began at 34.

My first few full hit DEs with that club on would not even break 500. The club was the only difference. However, now that my club skill is up over 100, the DEs versus those same Yagudo now do 550 on average. Keep in mind my offhand sword is about 36 damage, and I'm skilling up right now with a warp cudgel (15 damage). Obviously, if the club were hitting 5 times also, I would be doing a LOT less DE damage. But it's only 50 less. (For reference, my sword skill is 176, dagger 219.)

[imac2much]

Assuming you're using club in offhand (since you are using dancing edge so dagger main), the claim that people are debating is whether the offhand weapon does at least ONE extra hit... not added damage for all 5 hits of DE.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Mithrael
I suppose the difference is in semantics... but there is a difference for getting additional TP and "adding another hit." Adding another hit would make the Weapon Skill stronger, and there would no reason to sub anything other than NIN.
If you look at the test I did, it did make the weapon skill stronger. Single wield Wasp Sting did 48 damage, Dual Wield Wasp Sting did 96 damage. One extra hit.

When I say "adds a hit," I don't mean that you get another WS hit, per se. (You aren't going to get an extra 500 damage from SATAVB.) I mean, you get the WS plus one attack at normal melee damage. Adding one normal dagger slash to VB or DE isn't going to change much (except TP return, obviously).

I'm not sure how the description from Squenix contradicts this. They say that the first two hits when DWing return normal TP, but they don't specifically say anything about whether or not DWing adds a hit.

[Cali]

Thank you for all your replies.

I totally forgot about the weapon ranking, and was going to wield a D ranked sword. Thanks for reminding me.

Continue the discussion if you wish ^^ I am happy that this is a discussion and not a flamewar...(you know sometimes people flame for unneccessary things) I am currently a MNK, so I can't provide any more information useful to the topic, all I can say is: when I played my NIN, katana/sword gave retsu an extra hit, whereas katana/katana didn't. Try different combo of weapons? ^^

[Ixaera]

Rugal -- Yes, I was on the side that the offhand weapon adds one extra hit -- in the way of adding its damage to the first hit.

It seems to me (but I have no evidence other than the club story) that it's:

Hit #1 = regular attack round damage + DE damage multiplier (i.e. both weapons hit if dual weilding) and return a regular attack round's tp.

Hit #2-5 = main hand weapon's damage + DE damage multiplier, returning 1% tp per.

This is what the tp adds up to. It's also what the damage difference between dagger/sword DE and dagger/club DE was telling me.

This also tells me how a single wield SATA+DE is not obviously smaller than a dual wield SATA+DE. The extra damage is basically 40-60 points, which is well within variance range of SATA+DE.

I have absolutely no doubt that the offhand weapon is involved in WS in some way. There is proof in Nny's screenshot, when her sword leveled up mid-ws, even though it's an axe ws. I've experienced that too, without the offhand weapon landing a hit otherwise. (What I mean is, I've hit DE and had club gain points even though the previous and following rounds, the club missed, which limits the skill gain to happening during the weaponskill and not before or after with a normal hit.)

[Darkedge]

Originally posted by Cali
all I can say is: when I played my NIN, katana/sword gave retsu an extra hit, whereas katana/katana didn't. Try different combo of weapons? ^^

I think you're onto something. When I've seen War/Nin using Raging Axe with 2 Axes, it didn't seem to spectacular. When partying with a 40~ war/nin using axe/sword, she did good damage and her WS were good.

[imac2much]

Good point on the increased damage Dan. However, are we sure if it just adds a normal regular hit, or if it considered an extra WS hit (therefore with the required damage modifier). I can't see the dmaage any of your WS did in the screenshots except single wield wasp sting (or i'm blind).

Perhaps it's because wasp sting has a 1x damage modifier that we can't tell if it's a melee hit or a WS hit. Maybe use something that has a 2x or more damage modifier for hit.

However, the only 1 hit 1h weapon WS that has a higher damage mod than 1x seems to be Blade: Ten, so we need a higher level NIN to test this.

[imac2much]

According to Apple Pie and Studio Gobli, Dual Wield does indeed add an extra hit to your WS. However, the fTP multiplier is always 1.00 regardless of the weapon skill and the TP you have. Also, this only applies to physical WS (not elemental WS like burning blade).

If you want to know more about fTP, etc, check the weapon skill thread I made in the Paladin forums (a basic translation of the Studio Gobli site).