Duel Weilding WAR/NIN or Shield WAR/NIN?

[modnar]

Here is a question that came to mind (which is stated above).

Most (want to say all but I will not generalize) WAR/NIN use Duel -Weild 1 handed weapons when tanking. Would it not be more beneficial if it was an Axe/Shield?

If you had the Ninja's Shadows + Shield + Parry + Evasion, it would mean less hits. We know Shields make a difference (that is why PLDs use it instead of a G.Sword right?).

It seems to me that ppl are Duel-Weilding just because it is available without thinking which is beneficial...

Or was choosing 2 weapons a thought-out choice that has been debated before?

[ZQM]

DW = more damage = more hate

No point in tanking if you can't keep hate. :)

And a WAR/NIN can't fully tank until 60+, and by then it's pretty easy to just go :ichi > :ichi without getting hit.

[Macht]

There actually seems to be a base hate for just an action done and a hate based on damage/heal resulting from the action.

If you had to give them numeric values then it would be something like:

every action, just attacking hit or miss would be = 10
Damage/Heal = Value/2

I'm confident in this because out of every party I've been in were a member would wield a 2h weapon and me DW axes every time that other person in his 1 hit would do more then my two axe's combined damage and yet I still held hate easily as long as my two axes made contact.

When I could test this the damage the 2h would do usually was about 80's and each axe did 35. So in a view of damage alone it's obvious that the guy hitting for 80 should get hate from one getting 70 but he doesn't.

If you take those values the hate value the 2h person is getting a cycle is about 50 but by hate value since I'm doing two actions a cycle as long as I hit I'm getting 55 (Miss 1 would be 37-38). As a result if the start of the fight the first 3 rounds both attacks would have to hit in order for you be able to miss 1 and still hold hate by hits alone no provoke. That's about right to me usually when I've pulled hate from a 2h weapon with hits alone it's usually on the 3rd to 4th cycle.

In turn when I get Cure II cast on me from start of battle me and the mage generate equal hate both 55, after me taking just 1 hit no matter the number the mob usually turns for the mage right away.

I know for a fact that there is some hate value added for every action weather it deals damage, or even misses the monster because I've actually pulled hate off a mage that healed me even though both my attacks missed and the mage never took damage. The two missed attacks were the only apparent actions done that drew the monsters hate.

If you equip shield you end up shredding that hate control you'd of had. It does guarentee that your Utsusemi will last longer but holding hate will be a lot harder if you consider the situation I just stated and did only 1 axe, for the math the 1 axe would then only generate 10-28 hate instead of that 20-55.

[Matkun]

In my experience it actually seems that one big damage attack draws more hate then 2 attacks that deal the same total damage.

I've been farming a lot with a RDM friend of mine, and due to damage cap, his two swords hit for about 150 per double swing. With my GS I hit for about the same, yet I always tend to draw the hate, even though we're dealing equal amounts of damage.

No other actions involved either.

Also, as a note: Utsusemi casts actually generate a fair bit of hate I've found (Raised NIN to 40). So having to cast Utsusemi more often actually helps you hold hate, that is unless you lose more hate getting the shit beat out of you inbetween blinks.

[Mookie]

Might be an option pre-50 when you only have duel weild 1.
But then again /NIN isn't the greatest sub pre-50 anyway (unless you have a party that will keep you hasted and the mob heavily enfeebled).

[Lynsy]

In my experience, you will parry more with 2 weapons than 1 anyways, more or less makes up for no shield blocks. And parrying more means faster raising of the parry skill meaning higher parry skill meaning more parries, so on, so forth. Splitting it into 2 skills means they each go up slower meaning neither is very high meaning neither kicks in very often so they both go up even more slowly.

[modnar]

Originally posted by Lynsy
In my experience, you will parry more with 2 weapons than 1 anyways, more or less makes up for no shield blocks. And parrying more means faster raising of the parry skill meaning higher parry skill meaning more parries, so on, so forth. Splitting it into 2 skills means they each go up slower meaning neither is very high meaning neither kicks in very often so they both go up even more slowly.


I think you are correct about the two weapons parrying more than one. I think the main reason is because the hit avoidance order is the following:

Evade >> Shield >> Parry (Guard in a Monk's case) >> DEF (getting hit)

So the shield's blocks are no longer there, so you the parry gets more chances of being shown. So there are more parries. However, I am not too keen on the idea that Parry would be better than Shield+Parry. If someone had both lvled up, they would benefit from both and therefore have two "chances" of block the attack rather than only one.

When I was playing Monk I had the challenge of lvling my "Gaurd" skill up. What I ended up doing was lowering my Evasion and AGI by as much as I can and fighting mobs. The less you evade, the more chances you give the Guard skill to kick in.

So the same would be for Shield and Parry, correct? And here is the point I agree with you: best way to lvl them is to use one exclusively for a time so that it kicks in more often and not have some of its chances taken by the other ability.

Anyways. I think I am rambling. What I am saying in the end is that if you have both Shield and Parry lvled up, you have better chances of either kicking in, which would give you a better result than only Parry. (Parry+Shield > Parry).

___________________________

Ok. The above was my original arguement. But now I am thinking maybe it is the following with 2 weapons:

Evade >> Parry Weapon 1 >> Parry Weapon 2 >> DEF (getting hit)

So 2 weapons would give you the same kind of chances of Weapon+Shield.

So you may be correct after all Lynsy. I am no longer sure. :biggrin:

[Lynsy]

Again, simply from my experience, it does appear that there is a priority order for damage blocks (evasion/shield/parry/guard/etc)and that both weapons have a chance to parry when dual wielding--not exactly double the overall chance to parry as you would with 1 weapon since if Weapon 1 parries, Weapon 2 would not have the chance, but close.
I think Im gonna go experiment with this cause now Im curious ;x