Sarashi...

[Russta]

I've been trying to find out just how much haste Sarashi would give and after looking around I'm even more confused than when I started. I figured it would follow the same logic the other sub job relient latent effects do and move it up a level effectively giving me 5% Haste. This idea was supported by Bigokk's testing (http://b.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45074), however someone else who gives some pretty deep input on FFXIO, Apple Pie, said that Sarashi is useless on this thread (http://b.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42806&perpage=14&pagenumber=2) (second post from bottom). What to believe? Hopefully enough people here have tested it and can give their own verdict on it and I can judge from that. I don't much fancy wasting 300k on a slow selling item to find out it's own 1% Haste.

The main reason I want this belt is when I'm soloing really low stuff the Accuracy+10 from Life Belt seems to be totally wasted and no other belt seems worth it. If not Sarashi, I'm open to suggestions.

[ZQM]

I can't input on Sarashi. I do, however, use Mithran Stone when soloing. DEF:5 +3 Evasion +3 ACC. Evasion is the most important stat when soling, in my opinion, and it adds the most evasion of a belt that a WAR can wear. The added accuracy also doesn't hurt, since it's still possible to miss a TW mob.

Well, there's also Speed Belt, but I think 6 mil is a bit much. ;)

[Voila!]

I'd go with Bigokk for obvious reasons. Would you believe a Warrior so completely crazy in love with his job as to learn everything he can about it, or some cynical Red Mage with nothing positive to say?

[Patchinko]

Based on the fact that Grendal is probably the most highly thought of RDM on this forum, and moreover on the fact that he is known for his proving things via a stat parser, I would take his opinion of it very seriously.

Bigokk said he timed his hits using a stopwatch. If someone would be willing to redo the test using a parser, one could determine damage over time and that would give you a very solid result.

To make the test realistic, it would probably be best to do it against something far below your level, so you don't spend any time casting Utsusemi, Defender, etc. and to do the same type of mob from the same area a few different times both with and without it on, because mob levels will vary in any given area. Also, make sure not to put on another belt when you do the tests without the Sarashi, or at least not one that would effect your accuracy or damage output.

I'm interested as well because my WAR/NIN is lvl29 right now.

If anyone has a Sarashi and would be willing to use a parser to record damage over time, that would be quite helpful. :handsdown If not, and if I can get my hands on one (not likely on Remora), I'll do it myself. ^^

[Baradak]

Originally posted by Voila!
I'd go with Bigokk for obvious reasons. Would you believe a Warrior so completely crazy in love with his job as to learn everything he can about it, or some cynical Red Mage with nothing positive to say?

Little thing called bias, my friend.

[ruff0123]

The rumor flying around in the JP community is that Sarashi is 1% enchance dual wield and Suppanomimi is 10% enchance wield. I've bought the belt and tested it before and it's hardly noticable so I would suggest you save your gil.

[bonovoxpsu]

Originally posted by Voila!
I'd go with Bigokk for obvious reasons. Would you believe a Warrior so completely crazy in love with his job as to learn everything he can about it, or some cynical Red Mage with nothing positive to say?

lol - coming from someone who just flames people and has nothing relavent to say. awesome.

compared to other waist items, the sarashi is pretty worthless. definitely not worth the 300k it runs for on midgard.

apple pie might be the most informed person on these forums. you do nothing but flame people and annoy the boards.

[Lmnop]

Yes, it's true that Apple Pie does some amazing research, but from these 2 different threads, we see Bigokk's testing and a thread devoted to the testing of the sarashi. On the other thread, Apple Pie simply says 'By the way, 1%' and doesn't give us any data. He likely has tested it, but we haven't seen it.
My vote's with Bigokk (who admits this isn't the best way to test) until Apple Pie comes in and shows us otherwise.

[greysenn]

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32957&perpage=14&pagenumber=9

Applepie posted some numbers here for the sashari. Sorry its in the middle of a big stupid thread though. It should be about 1/3 to 1/2way down the page

[Voila!]

Sorry, he really loses out there in the end when he fails to tie in TP gain/loss to his concern with delay. It's cool how he just pulls numbers out of nowhere though, I like that.

Bigokk gets points by explaining everything in his study. Apple Pie loses points by trying to translate a japanese site. The 11:15 post wasn't even there.

Favoritism isn't the only thing that can distort the facts, by the way.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Voila!
Sorry, he really loses out there in the end when he fails to tie in TP gain/loss to his concern with delay. It's cool how he just pulls numbers out of nowhere though, I like that.

Bigokk gets points by explaining everything in his study. Apple Pie loses points by trying to translate a japanese site. The 11:15 post wasn't even there.

Favoritism isn't the only thing that can distort the facts, by the way.

First, Apple refered to the 11:55 post. Note:

Originally posted by Apple Pie
Rugal, here's how they find Sarashi only enhances 1% of DW.

http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Stingray/20041008 Look at the one at 11:55

It was found at our THF thread but I cannot find the old log. That website above wrote the summary and it should be enough to prove it.

Second, I believe Apple made a mistake (as you did) in typing. I believe he meant to type "11:51". If you read all of Apple's post, he also mentions that it's 4:15 in the morning and he was tired. I can forgive a typo under those circumstances, and seeing as you either made the same typo, or the more grevious error of simply misreading it, you should be able to forgive it as well.

For the most part Voila!, I find your posts to be enflamatory and obnoxious. I haven't seen you add anything to the discussion.


As for me, I prefer AP's method of using straight math to find simple results. I for one concluded that assuming all the results he quoted were correct, he did the math correctly (run the numbers yourself if you don't believe him, and if he did it incorrectly, do them yourself and post it), and seeing as such, concluded that Sarashi is indeed a 1% haste.

Now, going on Sarashi being 1% haste, it still could be a worthwhile investment. Why? Well, you have to compare it to what other people wear in the same slot. Seeing as you're talking about an application on most likely TW mobs, I would say that unless you found a belt that increased your damage output by more than 1%, adding 1% more attacks would be more beneficial. However, I find it highly unlikely that Sarashi would indeed end up being better. Why? Well, 1% faster attacks means that if you attacked 100 times, you'd get 1 additional attack. So, in order for sarashi to be more effective, in those 100 attacks, whatever you chose to wear instead would have to add the equivalent of 1 attack. Meaning, if you chose to wear a belt that increased your average damage by just *5* damage, over the course of 100 attacks, you'd have increased your damage output over that timeframe by 500 damage - well more than any job could hope to do in 1 attack.


At the same time, 1% haste *could* be a benefit if the fights are just the right amount of time where just getting that slight benefit would allow you to finish your mob and move on to the next one before you would've without it. However, I highly doubt that this is the case.


Russta, normally, when fighting things much lower than you, you should concentrate on boosting STR and ATT more than anything else. The haste won't really help you all that much unless you manage to amass a whole lot of it (To put that 1% into perspective, DW1 yields ~10% haste, and the spell Haste yields ~12.5%) to make any difference. You'd be better off simply increasing the amount of damage you do per hit significantly, and in doing so, decrease the amount of time you need to kill a mob. Btw, if you normally take ~30 seconds (meaningless number chosen for ease of math) to kill a monster, all you would have to do is do more damage to kill it 3 tenths of a second faster, and you would have been better than 1% haste. Even 5% haste - 1.5 seconds faster, and you've surpassed the Sarashi.



Then again, all my thoughts are merely logical theory. Prove it wrong with Parses.

[Lmnop]

hmm Apple Pie's information is a very logical approach and seems pretty sound. 'Reverse Engineering' as Imac said, does a good job of showing us how the game mechanics work.
And in that thread IGN thread where Bigokk posted his results, someone else mentioned his capped out accuracy and I do believe this could be the case. With Sarashi on, he did on average, 15.993% more damage (my numbers may be way off... give me no credit). I would say this is neither a 1% or 5% increase but more haste = more chances for double attack to fire and that will screw up any parsing methinks.

I do have one concern though: Apple Pie's friend that tested this was aiming to get 5 tp. But 5tp is the bare minimum for tp gain. My comprehension skills may be low but that seems like it would create a window where all results could be proven right. i.e. I have 2 daggers with 20 delay each (you wish, thieves) now I can make a nifty formula to show that 40 delay will always yield 5%tp gain.
Soooo many questions!!!:spin:

[Voila!]

Originally posted by AtraposBLM

Second, I believe Apple made a mistake (as you did) in typing. I believe he meant to type "11:51". If you read all of Apple's post, he also mentions that it's 4:15 in the morning and he was tired. I can forgive a typo under those circumstances, and seeing as you either made the same typo, or the more grevious error of simply misreading it, you should be able to forgive it as well.

For the most part Voila!, I find your posts to be enflamatory and obnoxious. I haven't seen you add anything to the discussion.


I find your posts to me imflammable and lame. Continue talking out of your ass while blindly puting your trust into a thread with a flawed conclusion, it's entertaining to know you have no clue what you're talking about.

[DM337]

Originally posted by Voila!
I find your posts to me imflammable and lame. Continue talking out of your ass while blindly puting your trust into a thread with a flawed conclusion, it's entertaining to know you have no clue what you're talking about.

I slipped on the all the irony in your post and broke my arm. Expect a lawsuit.

[neighbortaru]

Originally posted by DM337
I slipped on the all the irony in your post and broke my arm. Expect a lawsuit.

Haha. :handsdown

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Voila!
I find your posts to me imflammable and lame. Continue talking out of your ass while blindly puting your trust into a thread with a flawed conclusion, it's entertaining to know you have no clue what you're talking about.

I posted my reasons for why I believed what I did. To me, they seemed logical. I'm not blindly putting my trust into anyone. I read what Apple posted, felt that it made sense, and decided to accept it. If I never did that, I would never be able to learn anything from anyone that I didn't already know. On the other hand:

Originally posted by Voila!
I'd go with Bigokk for obvious reasons. Would you believe a Warrior so completely crazy in love with his job as to learn everything he can about it, or some cynical Red Mage with nothing positive to say?
Hippocrasy is a whole lot funnier than stupidity. Combine the two, and you get something closer to Voila's posts.

Post something logical, and not knee-jerk reactionary, and maybe I'll consider you to have some form of intelligence. As for right now, you're just a hippocritical flamer. Keep posting though, it's amusing to see that the best you can come up with are personal insults that have nothing to do with addressing any of the points I made.


Lmnop, you make a good point. I wonder if that's why Biggock got the numbers he did, which would indeed make Sarashi's 1% haste valuable while farming on things that are lower than you. If it was simple, I'm sure we'd all know the answer by now, but SE doesn't look like it wants us to really know anything...; ;


EDIT- I don't usually correct people's grammar, but your mistake is too funny to let it slip. First of all, imflammable is wrong. Inflammable is probably the word you were looking for. However, Inflammable means "not flammable", or to define it without using itself, "not able to be set on fire". So, my posts are flame-retardent, huh? What I think you meant to say was that you found my posts to be -inflammatory- as in, tending to inflame - or in this case, flame. When I said it, I mistakenly made it enflammatory, but the point remains. Basically, you responded to my post (where I said I found your posts to be generally inflammatory) with "Yeah, well, I find YOUR posts to be inflammatory, j00 lamer!" Your response was even more awesome than I had originally thought.

[Apple Pie]

Those who don't like math stuffs may want to compare these two movies. How many times did I attack a Lost Soul after pressing the [Time] macro? It was 12 times in both movies (exluding the one occured at the same time I pressed it).

http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/no_sarashi.wmv [w/o Sarashi]
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/sarashi.wmv [with Sarashi]

The [Time] macro consisted of 4 lines.

[Time]
/p Start counting 60 seconds
/wait 60
/attack off
/p Time!

I was RDM74/NIN37 and I had Tanathos Baselard (Delay 191) as my main weapon and Hornet Needle (Delay 150) as my sub weapon.

Without Sarashi
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.85 (DW2) = 289.85
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 289.85 = 12.42... = 12

If Sarashi really enhances DW by 5% or something as some of sarashi lovers stated,
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.80 (DW2 + Sarashi) = 272.8
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 289.85 = 13.19... = 13

Well, I didn't seem to be able to attack it 13 times at all.

If it only improves 1% as I stated, then:
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.84 (DW2 + Sarashi) = 286.44
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 286.44 = 12.56... = 12

This matches the number - "12" - seen on both movies.

In fast chaining XP PT at higher LV, average battle time is usually 1 minute or less. This is the reason some cynical Red Mage with nothing positive to say concluded Sarashi was useless. There are better gears we should look for such as Life Belt, Master belt and Sword Belt +1.

So yes, I'm going to get refund from Jeuno AH. I'm not sure if I can get my money back because when I saw the history, it was something like,

A >>>> B --- 350,000
B >>>> C --- 330,000
C >>>> D --- 340,000
D >>>> Grendal --- 330,000

They seemed to learn how useful it was. I don't care who equips what. If you think it works cool for you, why not?

[neighbortaru]

So Voila, any more stupid comments? Maybe your gut tells you the math is wrong... :rolleyes:

[Ariagiovanni]

I had to refund mine, I saw little difference and Life Belt seems to help more.

[Voila!]

If I'm going down I'm taking somebody with me.


Originally posted by AtraposBLM

EDIT- I don't usually correct people's grammar, but your mistake is too funny to let it slip. First of all, imflammable is wrong. Inflammable is probably the word you were looking for. However, Inflammable means "not flammable", or to define it without using itself, "not able to be set on fire". So, my posts are flame-retardent, huh? What I think you meant to say was that you found my posts to be -inflammatory- as in, tending to inflame - or in this case, flame. When I said it, I mistakenly made it enflammatory, but the point remains. Basically, you responded to my post (where I said I found your posts to be generally inflammatory) with "Yeah, well, I find YOUR posts to be inflammatory, j00 lamer!" Your response was even more awesome than I had originally thought.

Main Entry: in·flam·ma·ble
Pronunciation: in-'fla-m&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from Medieval Latin inflammabilis, from Latin inflammare
1 : FLAMMABLE
2 : easily inflamed , excited, or angered : IRASCIBLE
- in·flam·ma·bil·i·ty /-"fla-m&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun
- inflammable noun
- in·flam·ma·ble·ness /-'fla-m&-b&l-n&s/ noun
- in·flam·ma·bly /-blE/ adverb

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary-tb?book=Dictionary&va=inflammable

'Inflammable means flammable!?' quote Dr. Nick from the Simpsons.

[Johnnybigone]

Dang im a rather stupid person and i knew imflammable meant highly flammable... aw well back to looking for people fighting for no reason

[Voila!]

I couldn't agree more!

[imac2much]

The immaturity of some posters on these forums continues to amaze me.

Thanks for the experimenting once again Apple Pie.

[Voila!]

How much did he pay you to say that? It's pathetic if you have to get your friends to flame for you.

[Bigokk McGock]

Ok, where to start? Before I get started, I have stopped playing FFXI and am back to EQ and realized just how much more options are available in EQ than FFXI.

FFXI is too limited and imagination/creativity is a non-factor when designing your character profile (equipment).

Every WAR, leveling up through the ranks, having the same weapons and armor (not counting the extra +1 armor for the extra 1 stat which is meaningless in the big picture) regardless of how much time they spent farming or how much research they've done and effort they've put into playing the most efficient way possible...is just rediculous. (/rant off)

I'm a firm believer that hard work and passion about something pays off in the end, but in FFXI, it's just not the case.

I would like to respond to a few comments, but I will do no more new testing. Instead I will use the data from my previous tests to respond.

Based on the fact that Grendal is probably the most highly thought of RDM on this forum, and moreover on the fact that he is known for his proving things via a stat parser, I would take his opinion of it very seriously.

Bigokk said he timed his hits using a stopwatch. If someone would be willing to redo the test using a parser, one could determine damage over time and that would give you a very solid result.

I hope it's not too bold of a statement to say that some here would have also considered me one of the "most highly thought of WAR on this forum" and that I also am known for providing things via stat parser.

I have parsed every PT since finding Spyle's parser, I think I was in my mid 40's at the time?

Bigokk said he timed his hits using a stopwatch. If someone would be willing to redo the test using a parser, one could determine damage over time and that would give you a very solid result.

You are semi-correct. I initially timed it with my stopwatch the day I bought it...but then for weeks after, I parsed it constantly.

Here I posted the results of my tests:
http://b.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45389

Any way you look at it, you cannot deny the results.

151.17 damage per battle difference over Master Belt.

In fast chaining XP PT at higher LV, average battle time is usually 1 minute or less. This is the reason some cynical Red Mage with nothing positive to say concluded Sarashi was useless.

Darksteel Axe+1 and Viking Axe, with Sarashi (1%) -
Expected Delay: (276 + 281) x 0.84 (DW2, +1%) = 467.88
7.80 seconds between each swing.
7.69 swing rounds per minute.

Darksteel Axe+1 and Viking Axe, with Sarashi (5%) -
Expected Delay: (276 + 281) x 0.80 (DW2 + 5%) = 445.6
7.43 seconds between each swing.
8.07 swing rounds per minute.

Including TP attacks (Rampage), here are my results:
1102.67 Average damage per battle using Sarashi.
951.5 Average damage per battle using Master Belt.

Let's break down those numbers:

113.5* TP per minute with Sarashi (1%).
118.71* TP per minute with Sarashi (5%).
*(Includes TP gain for an approximate 30% chance to dual wield and 79.71% Accuracy. Also includes 10% TP return from Rampage).

1% Sarashi
If I were to achieve 1102.67 (702.67 with Rampage subtracted) damage per battle swinging 7.69 (7.96 with 30% double attack and 79.71% Accuracy) times per battle, I would do:

88.27 DMG per swing round, or 44.13 per hit.*

*(143.39 total damage per round, taking into account 100 TP every 1.04 battles, with 400 DMG average Rampage)

5% Sarashi
If I were to achieve 1102.67 (702.67 with Rampage subtracted) damage per battle swinging 8.07 (8.36 with 30% double attack rate and 79.71% Accuracy) times per battle, I would do:

84.05 DMG per swing round, or 42.02 per hit.*

*(140.14 total damage per round, taking into account 100 TP every .98 battles, with 400 DMG average Rampage.)

There's a 2.08 damage per hand swing difference. Too bad I didn't save the full logs to compaire it to, oh well...that was kind of pointless since I thought had the full logs so I could calculate the average hit.

There are better gears we should look for such as Life Belt, Master belt and Sword Belt +1.

I vehemently disagree with that statement. I already tested vs. the Master Belt, I really did not feel strong enough that another +7 ATK or +5 ACC would have covered the 151.17 damage per battle increase that I gained from using Sarashi.

If your data is correct, then the "Enhanced Dual Wield" effect (it's technically not "haste", but a reduction in delay) means a great deal more than anyone would have thought. With possibly another hidden bonus causing such a drastic increase in damage?

You're basically saying that Sarashi is equivalent to a Blitz Ring, which I find laughable, since I used one for a while and noticed no difference in damage output with or without it (so I ran no tests), unlike Sarashi. Sarashi is clearly a noticeable improvement.

So yes, I'm going to get refund from Jeuno AH. I'm not sure if I can get my money back because when I saw the history, it was something like,

A >>>> B --- 350,000
B >>>> C --- 330,000
C >>>> D --- 340,000
D >>>> Grendal --- 330,000

This has not occured on Cerberus, not even once while I played.

I feel sorry for those players who did not have a parser available to them to assist them in making an educated decision.

[Voila!]

I'm done being an ass, but I'd like to mention that Sarashi enhances dual wielding ability. This could cover the delay calculations AND damage calculations.

You can tell they are seperate calculations by equipping a dagger and axe, then switching them around. Having dagger in the first hand will have a faster delay, while having the axe in the first hand will result in more powerful hits.

[neighbortaru]

an interesting post Bigokk. However, I must point out that you are using a completely different bar in your comparison than Apple Pie.

Further, there are two variables in your parses that might screw things around. First, the damage from your TP attacks is not constant and second, the chance of your DA firing is also not constant. Are these enough to make a difference in the numbers you saw? Possibly.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Voila!
You can tell they are seperate calculations by equipping a dagger and axe, then switching them around. Having dagger in the first hand will have a faster delay, while having the axe in the first hand will result in more powerful hits.

You sure about this? I'm pretty sure it makes absolutely no difference.

Dual Wield gives a haste bonus depending on the level of your trait. There are 4 inherent job trait levels of Dual Wield for NIN, and there's other "enhancements" such as NIN AF, suppanomoni (sp?), sarashi, etc. All the other enhancements just increase the haste.

Your delay is calculated with (weapon 1 delay + weaopn 2 delay) * (1-DW haste)

So with Dual Wield 1, which is 10%, your delay is (w1delay + w2delay) * 0.9.

The slot you put your weapon in makes no difference except for weapon skill options. It also doesn't change your damage.

[Apple Pie]

Bigokk McGock,

Do you always fight with mobs that have same LV in XP PT? Mob's LV varies. Debuffs like Gravity and Dia II do change your accuracy and damage. I respect the result of your perser but unless you always fight with exactly the same mob and your PT does exactly the same thing against it, the result isn't always reliable.

OK, if Sarashi really enhances DW by 5%, how do you explain I get 104% TP after my 10th attack lands when I DW Verdan (224) + W.W.A (226) and equip Sarashi?

Do you really know how 10% improvement of DW was found by the way?

We all know TP we get varies according to the delay of weapons.

TP from each hit
Delay 0 - 180: Fixed at 5%
Delay 180 - 480: ((Delay - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5)
Delay 480 - 900: ((Delay + 480) / 80

When you get 5% TP back from each hit, this means your weapon has 0 - 180 delay. Therefore, TP tells you how much your delay is. You should know what I mean if you learn equation in your school.

So, we dual wielded Wakizashi (227) and checked how much TP we got for instance.

If DW had no haste effect, we should have got "227 (6.1% TP) + 227 (6.1% TP) = 12.2% TP" from each attack and after 10th attack, we should have got 122% TP. However, we didn't get that number. After 10th attack, we only got 110%.

110 / 122 = ???

This is how we found DW1, DW2, DW3, DW4 and the effect of NIN AF. S-E never told us those. Again, TP tells you how fast they are because the delay determines TP. Do you understand the logic?

Back to DW Verdan (224) + W.W.A (226), I get 104% TP both without Sarashi and with Sarashi. If Sarashi really enhances DW by 5%, I should get (224 + 226) x 0.8 = 360 Delay (180 for each weapon) resulting in the fact that I only get 100% TP after my 10th attack. I didn't unfortunately. I can anytime show you another movie if you want to argue more.

If you don't want to believe me, why don't you do the same thing? Also, any comment on two movie I recorded? Are you sure you conclude they are inaccurate and you have 13th attack in a minute with the same setup?

As for the perser, [No Thanks] because I have FFrep with me.

[EDIT]: Corrected some grammar.

[Bigokk McGock]

You should know what I mean if you learn equation in your school.

Do you understand the logic?

Before I respond to your post, I want to let you know that I do not appreciate being patronized and I will not continue to have a discussion with you unless you can hold a civilized conversation. Comments like those are not appreciated. Thank you.

Do you always fight with mobs that have same LV in XP PT? Mob's LV varies. Debuffs like Gravity and Dia II do change your accuracy and damage. I respect the result of your perser but unless you always fight with exactly the same mob and your PT does exactly the same thing against it, the result isn't always reliable.

Yes, every mob was in the same level range, in the same zone, in the same area, same group members, same spells, and same skillchain for every mob.

OK, if Sarashi really enhances DW by 5%, how do you explain I get 104% TP after my 10th attack lands when I DW Verdan (224) + W.W.A (226) and equip Sarashi?

I believe you meant 20th attack (unless you get 10.4 TP per hit?).

If DW had no haste effect, we should have got "227 (6.1% TP) + 227 (6.1% TP) = 12.2% TP" from each attack and after 10th attack, we should have got 122% TP. However, we didn't get that number. After 10th attack, we only got 110%.

Is it possible that since it's a latent effect, it does not check the the same way the permanant DW effect does? Or, is it possible that the item does not effect TP?

I played EQ for 4+ years, I know what things can go wrong with items and game code. Could it be a glitch that the item is not affecting TP as it should? That's not out of the question either.

Also, any comment on two movie I recorded? Are you sure you conclude they are inaccurate and you have 13th attack in a minute with the same setup?

I do have a few comments, I know when I turn attack on, the delay is more than the normal delay between swings. This could affect your results. Also, you should try doing /attack and then doing /echo and finish with /attack then /echo also.

I would like to see 2 videos showing more than one minute, maybe 5 minutes each, both the exact same length. Then we can count the number of attack rounds and determine the exact number of extra attack rounds and the haste % will be revealed.

Approximately one minute (give or take a few seconds) of testing can not positively conclude anything, in my opinion.

I do not play FFXI anymore, as I stated, and my account has been cancelled, so I cannot make any movies myself.

If you turn out to be correct with the amount of delay reduction, can you explain the huge damage loss in another way? I would be interrested in finding out.

One thing that I am 100% sure of, Sarashi is the best belt in the game for damage output (other than Speed/Sonic Belt).

[Patchinko]

Bigokk, I respect that you did the tests with the intent of avoiding bias, but unfortunately you did not control well enough in what you did to really make the determination that Sarashi is having any effect. Please try not to take offense to scrutiny, as my interest is finding out if this item is worth using, not proving one or another person wrong.

Since you did your experiments in a PT setting and based your determination on damage in a PT setting, it is very difficult to tell whether the Sarashi was the only factor, or even a determining factor, effecting the difference in your damage output. You say you fought raptors and peryton in Valley of Sorrows, but neglect to consider that these are of different levels, and that they have different buff and debuff moves effecting you. If you fought more raptors while wearing the Sarashi and more peryton while wearing the other gear, of course you got these results. I would be more convinced if you had done the test on 30 of the same mob type, as opposed to 30 mobs of various types, because then chances are that the random use of mob abilities would have been offset by the large number of tests.

The only test that I think would be able to convince me of its usefulness in the face of Grendal's test of TP in short fights would be a longer test, as Bigokk suggested. However, it would have to do quite a bit of improving over the 1 minute tests result to warrent the high pricetag or replacement over another belt.

[Apple Pie]

Is it possible that since it's a latent effect, it does not check the the same way the permanant DW effect does? Or, is it possible that the item does not effect TP?
It does affect TP.

We looked for the border of delay between the one giving us 5.0% (10.0%) TP and the other giving us 5.1% (10.2%) TP.

Case 1: DW2 (x0.85) without Sarashi

- Total Delay of 435 (217.5) gives us 5.0% TP for each attack (10.0% when both attacks land)
- Total Delay of 436 (218.0) gives us 5.1% TP for each attack (10.2% when both attacks land)

Case 2: DW2 (x0.85) with Sarashi

- Total Delay of 440 (220.0) gives us 5.0% TP for each attack (10.0% when both attacks land)
- Total Delay of 441 (220.5) gives us 5.1% TP for each attack (10.2% when both attacks land)

Case 3: DW2 (x0.85) with Suppanomimi

- Total Delay of 462 (231.0) gives us 5.0% TP for each attack (10.0% when both attacks land)
- Total Delay of 463 (231.5) gives us 5.1% TP for each attack (10.2% when both attacks land)

So, how much do both Sarashi and Suppanomimi enhance DW?

Assuming Sarashi does by 1% and Suppanomimi does by 5%,

Case 1: DW2 (x0.85) without Sarashi
435 x 0.85 = 369.75
436 x 0.85 = 370.6

Case 2: DW2 (x0.85) with Sarashi (x0.01)
440 x 0.84 = 369.6
441 x 0.84 = 370.44

Case 3: DW2 (x0.85) with Suppanomimi (x0.05)
462 x 0.80 = 369.6
463 x 0.80 = 370.4

To get 5.1% TP from single weapon, the delay has to be 185 or greater since only up tp two places of decimals are counted although 184 delay is supposed to give us 5.09375% (Attack them 20 times with weapons that have 184 or less delay and you'll only get 100% TP after all)

TP5.0%: 184 x 2 = 368
TP5.1%: 185 x 2 = 370

Therefore, these coefficients are fairly accurate. Our work can be found here (http://miara.sakura.ne.jp/ff/job/j_nin.htm) (in Japanese) and we have nice TP calculator like this (http://woys.hp.infoseek.co.jp/TPCalc.html) based on these mathematical methods. It includes everything such as MA, Store TP and Subtle Blow.
I know when I turn attack on, the delay is more than the normal delay between swings.
Did you see when I pressed [Time] macro? It was in fact after I attacked Lost Soul a few times. You should have seen "/p Start counting 60 seconds!" but did I do immediately after I turned attack on? I'm afraid not.
Approximately one minute (give or take a few seconds) of testing can not positively conclude anything, in my opinion.
I did that test more than 20 times in The Eldieme Necropolis alone although many people looking at me seemed to wonder what kind of idiots I was but I had no chance to attack it 13 times with Sarashi as expected. I will have no chance even though I kept testing 100 times or 1,000 times.

Well, shall I do the same test once I have access to Suppanomimi that is said to enhance DW by 5%? I can also shout in Jeuno and ask some RDM/NINs to help me.
Comments like those are not appreciated. Thank you.
Finally, this is just my irony against what you said, "I feel sorry for those players who did not have a parser available to them to assist them in making an educated decision." If it offended you so much, I'm sorry but I've been using FFrep (http://www.tt.rim.or.jp/~migigawa/ffrep/) before NA release of FFXI and posted a lot of stats here. I don't intend to be pride myself but when I see the comment like that, I cannot help laughing.

Anyway, these tools only take the statistcs. Although I fight with exactly the same mob like Guardian Crawlers (NM, all LV45), it doesn't mean my performance is always the same against them. There are a lot of random numbers lying.

You said, every mob was in the same level range, in the same zone, in the same area, same group members, same spells, and same skillchain for every mob. but did every mob was killed exactly in 60 seconds for instance? Did mages always finish casting debuffs in 10 seconds in every battle? Did the skillchain take place in 30 seconds in every battle? No way to confirm and it is almost impossible to reproduce exactly same steps in every battle.

[Bigokk McGock]

I appreciate you taking the time to explain the relationship of TP and weapon delay.

Finally, this is just my irony against what you said, "I feel sorry for those players who did not have a parser available to them to assist them in making an educated decision." If it offended you so much, I'm sorry but I've been using FFrep before NA release of FFXI and posted a lot of stats here. I don't intend to be pride myself but when I see the comment like that, I cannot help laughing.

What was your outcome in damage increase/decrease per mob with and without Sarashi? To me it seems like you are avoiding that question and blame the results on "random numbers".

Anyway, these tools only take the statistcs. Although I fight with exactly the same mob like Guardian Crawlers (NM, all LV45), it doesn't mean my performance is always the same against them. There are a lot of random numbers lying.

My test results were anything but random, they were consistant for 60 mobs (30 each), regardless if the mob is the exact same level or not. We were still getting chain 5, so you cannot assume that others were not keeping their damage up.

I did that test more than 20 times in The Eldieme Necropolis alone although many people looking at me seemed to wonder what kind of idiots I was but I had no chance to attack it 13 times with Sarashi as expected. I will have no chance even though I kept testing 100 times or 1,000 times.

My point is that your tests were only 60 seconds and therefore are inconclusive since you did not show a difference in the number of attacks. Your test needs to be set at an extended period of time to show the exact number of attack rounds 1. with and 2. without Sarashi, say 5 minutes each?

I appreciate your results and teh testing you have done and am not saying you are incorrect, I am just saying to me, your results are inconclusive (other than your TP results, which could be misleading if you assume too much).

[Apple Pie]

What was your outcome in damage increase/decrease per mob with and without Sarashi? To me it seems like you are avoiding that question and blame the results on "random numbers".
OK, here's comparison.

Test Setup 1 (http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/setup1.jpg)
- RDM74/NIN37
- Attack 390
- STR 57 + 18
- DEX 64 + 4
- Weapon: Mythril Baselard (D13, Delay 186) x 2
- Waist: Life Belt

Test Setup 2 (http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/setup2.jpg)
- RDM74/NIN37
- Attack 390
- STR 57 + 18
- DEX 64 + 4
- Weapon: Mythril Baselard (D13, Delay 186) x 2
- Waist: Sarashi

The method of testing
1) Make sure both Protect IV and Shell IV are up.
2) Buff myself with Phalanx and Stoneskin before engaging.
3) Engage with one of Hell Hounds (LV46 - LV49) at The Eldieme Necropolis.
4) Take it down only with regular attacks - Neither debuff nor WS can be used.
5) Repeat (1) - (4) until I take 15 of them down.

Test Result

Setup 1 (http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/setup1.gif)

1) Overall
- Total Damage: 33,863
- Average Damage: 42.9
- The Highest Damage: 66
- The Lowest Damage: 32
- Accuracy: 96.3% (790 / 820)

2) Without Criticals
- Total Damage: 30,344
- Average Damage: 41.4
- The Highest Damage: 52
- The Lowest Damage: 32
- Accuracy: 96.1% (733 / 763)

3) Critical Hits
- Total Damage: 3,519
- Average Damage: 61.7
- The Highest Damage: 66
- The Lowest Damage: 55
- Chance to be Criticals: 7.0% (57 / 820)

4) Average Battle Time = 157.9 seconds
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/average01.gif

Setup 2 (http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/setup2.gif)

1) Overall
- Total Damage: 33,319
- Average Damage: 42.9
- The Highest Damage: 66
- The Lowest Damage: 32
- Accuracy: 95.7% (776 / 811)

2) Without Criticals
- Total Damage: 30,531
- Average Damage: 41.8
- The Highest Damage: 52
- The Lowest Damage: 32
- Accuracy: 95.4% (731 / 766)

3) Critical Hits
- Total Damage: 2,788
- Average Damage: 62.0
- The Highest Damage: 66
- The Lowest Damage: 55
- Chance to be Criticals: 5.5% (45 / 811)

4) Average Battle Time = 162.1 seconds
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/average02.gif

Conclusion

1) Sarashi neither increase nor decrease the damage

2a) fSTR (My STR - Hell Hound's VIT) was capped.

2b) ATK/DEF multiplier was capped (x2.4).
------------------------------------------------------------------
The highest possible damage of Mythril Baselard is:
(13 + int (13 / 9) + 8) * 2.4 = 52.8 = 52

The highest possible damage at Critical is
(13 + int (13 / 9) + 8) * 2.4 * 1.25 = 66
------------------------------------------------------------------

3) Accuracy was seemed to be capped because it reached 95% - 96%. Just a few difference (96.3 - 95.7 = 0.6%) is considered to be an error.

4) Because of (1) to (3), testing environment was fair enoufh for both setups.

5) As a result, Sarashi didn't seem to enhance DW by 5% according to the test because average battle time was actually worse with it. If it really did:

Setup 1
Expected Delay: (186 + 186) x 0.85 = 316.2 (108.1)
Chance to Attack in two minutes: 7,200 / 316.2 = 22 (x2)

Setup 2 --- Assuming Sarashi improves DW by 5%
Expected Delay: (186 + 186) x 0.80 = 297.6 (148.8)
Chance to Attack in two minutes: 7,200 / 297.6 = 24 (x2)

48 (24 x 2) / 44 (22 x 2) = 1.09...

Therefore, when accuracy was 100%, Setup 2 had to do 1.09 times higher damage than Setup 1 did in two minutes. It is apparent that it didn't.

[Apple Pie]

My point is that your tests were only 60 seconds and therefore are inconclusive since you did not show a difference in the number of attacks.
Read my testing method again and see when I pressed the macro that started counting 60 seconds on those movies.

There were 12 (x2) attacks excluding the one occurred at the same time I pressed it if you already manually counted them. The reason you didn't see any difference is because Sarashi didn't enhance DW by 5%. That's it.

Quoting from my previous posts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without Sarashi
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.85 (DW2) = 289.85
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 289.85 = 12.42... = 12

If Sarashi really enhances DW by 5% or something as some of sarashi lovers stated,
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.80 (DW2 + Sarashi) = 272.8
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 289.85 = 13.19... = 13

Well, I didn't seem to be able to attack it 13 times at all.

If it only improves 1% as I stated, then:
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.84 (DW2 + Sarashi) = 286.44
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 286.44 = 12.56... = 12

This matches the number - "12" - seen on both movies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I had Suppanomimi instead of Sarashi, you saw me attack Lost Soul 13 (x2) times instead.

[Bigokk McGock]

Your tests results are very strange, to say the least.

The only explanation I could come to about the difference between our results is that I was using IT mobs while you were using TW-EP mobs.

The last thing to convince me would be to record the time it takes to reach 100 attack rounds without Sarashi and then count the number of attack rounds you make with Sarashi in that same time period.

If you are correct, "with Sarashi", you will have 101 attack rounds in the exact time it takes you, with "no Sarashi", to reach 100.

That is the only true way to determine the exact % of "haste" without assuming anything.

[Apple Pie]

Finally, here're logs taken by FFreplo. Since I am using JPN client (because I am Japanese), it's in Japanese.

http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/setup1.htm
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/setup2.htm

If you're able to read them, you'll find setup1 had some bad luck because I failed to see Meat Chiefkabobs gone for some seconds. However, setup2 was still unable to outperform it. I don't know why because only 1% enhancement to DW allowed Setup2 to attack 23 (x2) times in two minutes when we get 100% accuracy.

Anyway, it seemed to work for Bigokk and I don't let him stop using it. I don't use it. It's your choice.

[neighbortaru]

err, what can you swing at for 100 rounds that 1) you won't kill and 2) won't kill you?

again, I think the fact that you have DA and WS, (criticals too) that are variable, excludes you from using damage as an indication of Sarashi performance.

[Apple Pie]

Your tests results are very strange, to say the least.
No way. Fighting against IT mobs won't offer you equal environment for both setups since there are more undecided factors. Do you always get nearly 100% accuracy against them? Does your damage always stable against them? No.

At one of fights, you may get 60% accuracy and at another fight, you may get 70% accuracy whereas they are always stable when we fight with TW mobs. Are you saying your test environment is better than mine?

Although you said it was strange, it was what I got from FFrep and I don't think I'm foolish enough to manipulate the numbers.

[Apple Pie]

I think the fact that you have DA and WS, (criticals too) that are variable, excludes you from using damage as an indication of Sarashi performance
Thank you, neighbortaru. That's what I wanted to say. I attack them only with regular attacks. No DA. No WS. I only get raw performance of Sarashi.

[Justarius]

Arrogant FFXI quitter vs Intelligent FFXI guru.

hmmmm... I guess the WAR sterotypes are partially derived from hours sitting in jeuno LFG.

[neighbortaru]

come now, what that really necessary? :dead:

[Justarius]

probably not, but refuting pages of hard numbers, averages, and video with anecdotes is fun to point out.

[Ashn]

At least Bigokk has been nice about everything. It's been a refreshing argument to read, having just come from the allakhazam board. Most folks there are just like "my way is right no matter what hard facts you throw down to refute it."

So props to you Bigokk for not letting it devolve into a flame war ^^ I've found the thread informative.

(Apple Pie you're my hero!) ^_^

I saw someone on my server named Applepai today and got upset. :)

Edit: Er.. typo in there fixed.

[Bigokk McGock]

Arrogant FFXI quitter vs Intelligent FFXI guru.

hmmmm... I guess the WAR sterotypes are partially derived from hours sitting in jeuno LFG.

I hardly call personal attacks "anecdotes".

Frankly, I could care less what you think, especially since Warriors don't wait for groups. Once you level out of Valkrum, you'll learn more about the game.

At any rate, I'm done here, it appears my results were somehow flawed and I was incorrect.

I apoligize that I had previously misreported Sarashi as being 5% delay reduction and mislead some of you to purchase the item.

If any of you were influenced to buy Sarashi and are on Cerberus and cannot sell it, I will refund you for the item. (Although I do not play, my friend is still holding my money incase I come back someday).

Good luck everyone and I wish you all great happiness.

[imac2much]

Wow... someone graciously admitting fault in forums. I rarely see this in forums.. some people could really learn from you. Best of luck in EQ2.

[Apple Pie]

Well, I've already read most of Bigokk's posts before I started to argue with him about this topic. He's done a lot of research by himself and he even proved our accuracy formula was correct.

We have a lot of testers who are willing to contribute and we have specific forums and threads for this kind of issues. However, he's done that all by himself. That's amazing, isn't it?

The reason I like this FFXIOnline board and I decided to post here is because there are a lot of people who present evidence and proofs through their experiments to support their claim. It's worth reading and sometimes worth arguing.

Look at some of other FFXI forums. Some claim, for example, "RDM can effectively melee in XP PT." OK, then where's the proof? No, I can't see any. There are only wordy threads there and no in-game experiment can be found. There are always a lot of "---'s 101" and "---'s --- Guide" but I'm sick of them since they are just copied from some websites. How can LV30 RDMs write something like "Enhancing Sword is better than Joyeuse." although they've never had access to them.

Anyway, although it was proved by mathematical method, doing another research is always fun. Sure, if Sarashi really has a nice effect, I'm also pleased to know that because RDM/NIN, which is an ultimate combo for soloing for us, can make good use of it.

However, as the average battle time per fights shows, it didn't help me to kill them faster. If it gives me a few more chances to attack Hell Hounds in a certain period of time, it definitely makes the difference because more attacks -> more damage -> less avg. battle time.

Finally, there's no need for refund, Bigokk. You've never forced them to purchase it. We decide if it's worth to buy or not whatever your and my test results are. I spend 330K but I can anytime send it back to AH in Jeuno. I'm not sure if I can get full refund but if it is condidered to be a school tuition for studying and testing, I don't think it's waste of my money.

Good Luck on your EQ2 life.

[Techboy]

I wish we have more testers like Apply Pie taking the time to investigate these "super-duper-godly-gears".

Aple pie, how about testing the effectiveness of having a pair of sniper rings vs dex rings vs str rings?

:thumbsup:

[Lmnop]

As I said before, the damage increase was neither 1% or 5%, it was higher. The only reason I can think of for this Double Attack. So regardless of it's 'haste,' it DOES increase a warrior's effectiveness. This means nothing for a rdm/nin, however (unless he has a joyeuse). Apple Pie, thank you for your numbers and you courtesy. Bigokk, thank you for the testing and all your time spent. Best of luck to you both.

And again, thanks to both of you for keeping this civilized as I expected from these most 'highly thought of' individuals.

[Justarius]

Originally posted by Lmnop
As I said before, the damage increase was neither 1% or 5%, it was higher. The only reason I can think of for this Double Attack. So regardless of it's 'haste,' it DOES increase a warrior's effectiveness.

I claim that eating Sweet Rice Cakes increases the amount of criticals by an number higher than 1%. The only reason I can think of for this is the Maple Sugar. So regardless it DOES increase a warrior's effectiveness.

:o

[Macht]

The mathmatics seem a bit odd on that initial one you displayed. I was trying to figure out what the 3,600 was suppose to be. Also though the mathmatics numbers seem pretty close if that 3,600 is suppose to be some factoring number for the delay in a minute then the data is even more to close of numbers.

That initial one would of worked better if you were capable of doing that for 2 min. instead in accordance to the math you provided 2 min. would of factored out a possible delay error in your test. Otherwise with a number like 3,600 = 60 seconds that would mean the test for the item adding haste would have no apparant difference if the timing between the two tests was even half a second off.

At least with 2 min. if the item did give 5% haste there should be at least 1 extra set of hits over the other.

EDIT: Reviewing 3,600 as being an equivalent of 60 seconds I noticed that both 1% and 5% would be capable of getting 1 extra hit over the use of no sarashi. The 1% would be extreemly close though so it wouldn't help to prove much, testing the numbers again 3 min. showed to seperate the difference more clearly. In with no sarashi and 1% haste would get 37 (1% coming very close to 38 so it possibly executing close to exactly when the 3rd min. ends) hits and 5% haste would get 39 (40 coming very close to when the 3rd min. hits)

[Apple Pie]

Because all motions are calculated on a 60fps basis (FFXI was originally designed for PS2 and this is what most JPN PS2 games follow) internally whatever fps we get in game, there are 3,600 (60 x 60 secs) frames in one minute.

Weapons all have delays like 224 as we know and they indicate required frames between swings. This doesn't seem to apply to ranged attack by the way.

When you take a look at the result taken by FFrep, you notice the average battle time is more than 120 seconds for both cases (w/ Sarashi and w/o Sarashi). If, let'say, it had +5% haste effect, there had been a clear difference in the average battle time because

1) Average damage was the same
2) Accuracy was almost the same

However, it wasn't able to show us any advantage. I don't have Suppanomimi yet but I'm going to do the same test with it.

EDIT:
3,600 (60 x 60 secs) fps -> 3,600 (60 x 60 secs) frames
per swing -> between swings
ranged weapon -> ranged attack

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
Weapons all have delays like 224 as we know and they indicate required frames between swings. This doesn't seem to apply to ranged attack by the way.
Could you explain this please, Apple Pie? Ranged delays are calculated differently?

[Apple Pie]

For example, the weapon that has 224 delay has the wait, 224 / 60 = 3.733... seconds, between swings and I'm confident of this. Therefore, 1 Delay is equivalant to 1/60 second. There is a guy here (http://pamama.hp.infoseek.co.jp/FF11kensyou/kensyou5-03-12-11.html) verifying this through video capturing.

However for ranged weapons, we haven't been able to verify 1 delay = 1/60 second. It's more like 1 delay = 1/70 - 1/80 second. Our conclusion so far is there must be some unknown modifier for ranged weapons.

[Russta]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
However for ranged weapons, we haven't been able to verify 1 delay = 1/60 second. It's more like 1 delay = 1/70 - 1/80 second. Our conclusion so far is there must be some unknown modifier for ranged weapons.

Uhhh, the arrows?

[Apple Pie]

Uhhh, the arrows?
They're also included T_T

What's tricky is this unknown modifier seems to vary depending on the type of ranged weapons.

The delay that determines TP we get from each attack is actually [Bow Delay] + [Arrow Delay] but the actual delay between ranged attacks isn't...

[Arctyc]

Given how much actual animation has had a hand in influencing various abilities in the game already, I would not be surprised if the mystery delay for Ranged Weapons relates to the draw/fire animation in relation to the timer activation.

For a good analogy, consider the Sneak spell. I don't know if it has happened to you, but it's happened to me: you cast the spell, complete the spell and run into a monster, only to have it agro. Why? Because the Sneak Animation had not finished yet, and the text log message "Soandso casts Sneak. Soandso gains the effect of Sneak" had not appeared yet.

Or when you land the killing blow on a monster with a spell; they stop attacking immediately upon the completion of the spell, but do not fall over until the animation on them finishes.

[Macht]

The thing with Ranged weapons vs other weapons is I do notice that ranged weapons have two triggers were other weapons only have one trigger.

So when you do an attack the server sends a trigger command and the animation starts and finishes. Ranged Weapons however is different, when you hit for the Range Attack it gets a trigger that causes you to draw the bow and a second trigger for the fire animation when you fire it.

I know that for a fact because I've had many lag/server related incidents cause my range attacks to do many strange things. And the two triggers is the only thing that explains them.

I've had cases were I hit the fire command and nothing seemed to of happen and some time much latter when I'm not even hitting the fire command the fire animation begins, I'll be standing there with my bow drawn. I had a case were that happened and sometime latter my bow gets drawn, I sat there for a good 20 seconds before I moved character wondering what was going on. It was then I noticed that none of the monsters were moving or other characters (Server had lagged severely).

About 5 min. later I suddenly finish my animation actually firing and a monster way back were I was before I moved during the server lag comes running for me. The same monster I tried to shoot just before the server lag.

So ofcourse if you measure from animation to animation I'm convinced you'll get a number, I am not convinced that it is accurate to weapons actual delay in accordance to what the server is doing.

[Hetaira]

TP from each hit
Delay 0 - 180: Fixed at 5%
Delay 180 - 480: ((Delay - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5)
Delay 480 - 900: ((Delay + 480) / 80

Apple Pie, you posted this formula for TP return calculations. However, on the TP calculation site you linked (http://woys.hp.infoseek.co.jp/TPCalc.html), they seem to have different sets of TP return formula:

é–“éš”ã?‹ã‚‰TP計算(少数第2ä½?以下ã?¯åˆ‡ã‚Šæ ?¨ã?¦)
〜180 5.0
180〜480 ((間隔-180)/256) * 6 + 5
480〜960 ((間隔-475)/1024) * 13 + 12
960〜 18.0

So which one is correct? Or is it not supposed to matter since according to the directions you round down under the 2nd decimal?

[Apple Pie]

Or is it not supposed to matter since according to the directions you round down under the 2nd decimal?
Yes, you got it :cool: Both formulas should give you the same answer.

[Kibagami]

You know the guy that mentioned double attack has a point. Now there is one thing i would like to know. With a 248 delay weapon you say you hit every 3.7 seccons no? Well when do the 3.7 seconds start to count? From the moment you start to swing your sword or the moment you actually hit the mob?
If the timer starts to count from the moment you start to swing your sword and double attac kicks in then the it will take less time for you to start swinging your sword again. Therefore a WAR/NIN with double attack kicking in could have more benefit of a 1% haste.

I'm not sure about what happens with delay when double attack kicks in. If a MNK/WAR does 4 hits in a row (having DA kick in in both punches), does his next round of punches take the same time to start again or is the time diff betwen the previous 4 hits and the next round of hits shorter?

[SAVAGE]

I have a couple of questions regarding Sarashi speedbelt and suoppunani(sp).
So its confirmed speedbelt is better than sarashi.
Now what aobut Earing+sarashi, wouldnt that make your dualwield +2. So would having both of those be better than a speedbelt or does speedbelt still give more haste?

[Dano]

Originally posted by Kibagami
You know the guy that mentioned double attack has a point. Now there is one thing i would like to know. With a 248 delay weapon you say you hit every 3.7 seccons no? Well when do the 3.7 seconds start to count? From the moment you start to swing your sword or the moment you actually hit the mob?
If the timer starts to count from the moment you start to swing your sword and double attac kicks in then the it will take less time for you to start swinging your sword again. Therefore a WAR/NIN with double attack kicking in could have more benefit of a 1% haste.

I'm not sure about what happens with delay when double attack kicks in. If a MNK/WAR does 4 hits in a row (having DA kick in in both punches), does his next round of punches take the same time to start again or is the time diff betwen the previous 4 hits and the next round of hits shorter?

definately shorter, the timer starts counting down when you launch your first attack (first fist, swing.. etc) and it will continue counting even if double attack goes off (you will notice with 2 hand weapons, your swing motion swings slightly faster) hence i sometimes see myself go on a string of attacks with the +0 delay cestis and haste spell (hit hit hit hit kick, new set of attacks again after like.. 0.5secs) . Hope that helps

[Kibagami]

With that being said. Then that is why apple pie would get less benefit from that belt than a job that has double attack or tripple atack.