Sort of dissapointed @ PLD :(

[ryan3]

Well, Ive loved PLD forever now. Level other jobs on the side.. but nothing is funner than a PLD. The other day, Serket spawned in garlaige where we were leveling. A 18 person alliance was there, camping it. They claimed it, and had 2 pld tanking it. They all somehow got raped viciously. Then, a NIN/WAR + WHM/SMN comes, and they basically solo it. Is a PLD Basically useless at end game compared to NIN?

[accountname]

no not at all.

if anything, NINs are the top choice for XP PT tanking, and HNM tanking is a PLDs strongpoint.

generally speaking, the more HP the better for HNM. It basically gives a WHM a nice window of oppurtunity when you get blasted with a nasty AOE. PLDs are able to withstand ALOT more of those type of attacks.

a NIN can definitely duo serket, or lower-end HNMs. if they get caught without a shadow however, they are done.

[PaladinsArc]

We're not "useless" for end-game situations. Personally if an EIGHTEEN person alliance gets wiped with two paladins, they have serious problems (or extremely underleveled). Serket is most definately one of the easiest HNMs in the game... just bring a stack of antidotes, a white mage and you're good to go. I killed Serket with four people... but my leet paladin damage made the fight seem long as hell. As for the ninja duoing it... the top ninja on my server can solo Serket in 30-40 minutes. That same ninja held Behemoth for 15 minutes while he waited for some mages to help him out. He took Behemoth to 80% while he waited for their arrivals. Basically... a ninja with max Haste+% gear is an unstoppable machine that won't get hit (with a good connection of course :P). But... in order to achieve max haste, you're looking to spend a LOT of money. Speed Belt is around 12 mil on our server... damn that King Arthro. But to get back on topic, there's no way that a ninja can hold hate against gods or HQ HNMs. We tried having a ninja tank some of the gods... it didn't work out at all. 1400+ MB from our BLMs caused a little hate problem for him, so we're sticking to paladins for the tanks. If you're a ninja and you can hold 100% hate, then please correct my statement. But that's just something I've never seen or heard of before...

-Arc

(bored at school, forgive the longass message)

EDIT: I hate ninjas... the power to take Orc HNM with two ninjas and a bard is disgusting... fgts.

[Mikeb]

On my server I saw alot of Pld/Nin, saw one in action tanking a NM (Bune). Looked pretty impressive...

[imac2much]

PLD/NIN is extremely situational. In almost all cases, NIN/WAR is better because of several factors:

1) Voke, Double attack, Berserk, Warcry and generally better weapons and dual wield haste at high levels guarantee they do much more damage than PLD/NIN.

2) Higher ninjitsu skill allows for their debuffs and elementals to land, as well as allowing them to pull off utsusemi more often even if they were hit during casting. The aggro from the enfeebles and extra damage alone will outaggro most enmity from PLD/NIN (though the PLD/NIN has occasional aggro spikes with JA, but then the aggro dies down fast), and with Voke, obviously NIN/WAR keeps hate much better.

3) Utsu ni lasts 4 shadows for NIN main, and with all their +haste gear and high evade, they should be able to keep blinks up without ever getting hit.

However, I recently had the honor of using PLD/NIN in probably the most exciting thing I've done in this game so far: main tank for Fenrir!

First, I'd have to admit NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN is probably the best tank for this fight... however, PLD/NIN works fine as well, as long as you meet certain criteria:
You definitely need a SMN or two as DD's, so Leviathan can help tank. Your other melees need to sub /NIN so that hate gets "passed around" while you recast your utsusemi and then JA or Flash or Cure to get hate back.

Our PT setup was PLD/NIN, RNG/NIN, THF/NIN, WHM/BLM, BRD/WHM, SMN/WHM. I brought 4 Yagudo Drinks, 5 Hi Potions, and a Hi Ether (didn't use the ether). Basically we just fought as normal, and strangely enough I could get hate whenever I wanted even against the high damage of the RNG (and the THF usually SATA on RNG or just solo SA since I have to keep my back to the wall. When Fenrir was near 50% life, BRD 2hr+dark carol before Fenrir 2hr'ed, but WHM still died x_x (only lvl 65 or so). I immediately 2hr and spam hi potions while recasting utsu:ichi, keeping hate on me as WHM reraised up, stoneskin and blink'ed in time to cure me as my 2hr and shadows ran out, at which point Leviathan and RNG tanked a bit ... then a quick savage blade > heavy shot > eagle eye shot ended the fight. Most fun I've had in the game, and definitely opened my eyes to PLD/NIN.

[Cade]

<Good Job!> Rugal!




That same ninja held Behemoth for 15 minutes while he waited for some mages to help him out. He took Behemoth to 80% while he waited for their arrivals.

Wow. I've heard KB can be tanked with a ninja, but its normally not because Meteor will @#$% kill a ninja easy. But if he tanked KB for that long... Wow.

[neelon]

Originally posted by Cade
<Good Job!> Rugal!






Wow. I've heard KB can be tanked with a ninja, but its normally not because Meteor will @#$% kill a ninja easy. But if he tanked KB for that long... Wow.

I think he tanked Behemoth, not King Behemoth. Still impressive in my eyes non the less.

[PaladinsArc]

Originally posted by Cade
Wow. I've heard KB can be tanked with a ninja, but its normally not because Meteor will @#$% kill a ninja easy. But if he tanked KB for that long... Wow.
Nobody can tank KB for that long. lol He just took Behemoth while I was running to him. My group was waiting for me and this ninja just runs by with her quick-ass ninja boots and just claims it np.

-Arc

[Cade]

Oh... bah... no huge deal then. My bad for misunderstanding.

[LionhartPLD]

I am 75PLD 37WAR 60NIN.
The reason NIN does so well against Serket is becuase he can't see shit. He has low accuracy as do all scorpions. Scorpions hit hard but miss a lot, their basically Elvaan of mobs :P.

anyways I have tanked as PLD/NIN successfully it is possible but it's pretty difficult becuase only 3 shadows with NI as NIN SUB and PLD has craptastic eva, also no provoke; you basically rely on flash and PLD JAs.. But my high shield saves my ass a lot.
Overlord Bakgodek , Bune, misc. small NMs

[Kiyosuki]

Its too bad using two swords doesn't like...double your parrying or something. A Paladin using two swords (especially really high level ones) is one of the coolest looking things in the game to me.

But it doesn't. ; ; Sword/Shield all the way.

[Ziguld]

the only good thing about dualwield as pld is when you switch into attacker gear and start throwing out 600->800dmg Savage Blades @100-150% and have the warrior in yer pt start bitching about how he needs a dmg+tp gaining upgrade. <3 Hrotti+Joyeuse

[Kiyosuki]

Some DD can be an insecure bunch eh? :sweat:

[imac2much]

Haha that's pretty interesting Ziguld. I am curious as to how my PLD would do in an XP PT in attacker mode as well. ATM I have acc+30 (peacock, opti hat, life belt) and byrnie for atk, I can get some snipers if that's not enough damage either. Would PLD/THF or PLD/NIN be more damage dealing? (I was thinking PLD/THF for SATA Spinning Slash, but PLD/NIN 1hs WS are pretty strong as well since they add an extra hit).

But why savage blade instead of Swift Blade? At 100%, Swift has a higher damage modifier (1.5x 3 hits) than Savage Blade (1x 2 hits). So at 100% with 2 swords you would do 1.5x4 with Swift as opposed to 1x3 with Savage. Of course at 300% Savage is better (Swift = 1.5x4 still since TP only increases ACC, Savage = 3.5x3). I guess with Hrotti+Joyeuse and +ACC you would gain TP far faster than any other DD unless they have a Ridill or Kraken, but then again Joyeuse is a lot easier to get than those 2. I'll probably try it with an Esp+1 + Joyeuse since I don't have a Hrotti :p

Interesting nonetheless, but I don't think random PT's would be too keen on offensive PLD at lvl 74 haha. But I think as long as I'm not fighting Aura Golems in sky this may indeed work... esp with Snipers I'll have ACC+40 which is more than many other DDs out there. I'd really like to log the damage results since /NIN does extremely good DoT with Esp+Joyeuse so far, and WS for 600-800 is not bad considering how fast we can get TP...

[imac2much]

After some thinking, this is the type of setup I want to use when I test offensive PLD/NIN:

Weapon: Company Sword + Joyeuse
Ranged: Lightning Bow +1
Body: Byrnie (Haubergeon if borrowed)
Head: Optical Hat
Hands: AF (DEX+3)
Legs, Feet: Tiger (ATK+7)
Neck: Peacock Charm
Earrings: Fenrir, Assault Earring (buy or borrow)
Rings: +str rings or Sniper Rings
Back: Amemit+1
Waist: Life Belt

Most of this stuff I already have or I will get for my RNG eventually. Company Sword is better than Hrotti for main hand weapon since with full PT the damage = 56. The only things I'd need to buy or borrow are some rings and a 2nd earring (no suppanomi yet so I'd probably get Assault Earring). I wonder if I'd really need a Haubergeon over a Byrnie.. Byrnie has STR bonus as well and more +ATK, while Haubergeon has about 2 more STR , 10 less atk, 10 more acc. If I'm mostly fighting VTs (probably in kuftal or romaeve) would I really need more than +42 ACC (opti + peacock + life belt + 2 snipers + assault earring).

Can anyone direct me to a reliable parser? I saw one in the main forums once but people said that it had a trojan or keylogger in it so I paid it no heed. I am curious how my offensive PLD/NIN setup would compare to other DD's at this level.

[csBahamut]

I'm quite curious to see the results as well. Would have to be pretty darn good results to make me want to play NIN though.

[Reanda]

You know rug, after seeing your offensive equipment $_$
i think you could have a really awesome time if you make a 3 RNG party, yourself as an offensive PLD, WHM and BRD...

You guys could mow down aura weapons in sky like nobody's business....

[imac2much]

Ooh good idea. Those Aura weapons aren't that hard, many were VT to 74-75.. probably about same level as the Romaeve weapons. With /NIN I can do intial tanking, getting first hate with flash and JA's, but I'm guessing the hate will ping pong between 3 RNG/NIN and PLD/NIN :p

That is an interesting suggestion, just need to find people to do it with :p Still need to buy the Company Sword and Sniper Rings... I'm planning to get Snipers for my RNG anyway when I hit 63 so that I can hit with my Francisca more often (and hopefully get cap the skill >_<)

But first and foremost I need to find a parser so that I can actually record the results... any suggestions?

[Lyonesse]

Offensive PLD? I'll just sub WAR and equip the excellent Offensive gear and whomp some shizzy up with my 1H sword =D.

Joyuese + Berserk + Meatkabobs + Offensive gear = super damage fun?

Although, it seems you want to do some tanking anyway so that sounds like some fun with the NIN sub =O.

[imac2much]

This is why I think /NIN is better sub than /WAR for offensive PLD.

WAR SJ gives you Berserk, Warcry, Double Attack.
According to much testing, DA only procs about 12.5% of the time. Joyeuse DA procs 50%. So the loss of /WAR DA won't be too noticeable.

Berserk will raise your attack quite a bit for 3 minutes every 5 minutes. This is /WAR's biggest draw for offense.

Warcry doesn't last long at all (30 seconds) and the ATK increase is only around +20ATK or so.

Now what does NIN give?

First of all, remember your WS damage is calculated with the damage of your main weapon. Now also remember that Joyeuse, although it gets TP very fast, is a relatively weak 1hs. Company Sword is much, much stronger. Also realize that /NIN gives you :
Dual Wield II = 15% haste
1 extra hit for your WS: i.e. Swift Blade is 4 hits, Savage Blade is 3 hits.

Your WS will be much stronger with /NIN even without Bersrek. Not only is the damage calculated with a stronger base damage, but you get an extra hit as well.

You will gain TP as fast with either SJ since /NIN has Dual Wield II and /WAR has DA.

[Lyonesse]

12.5% for Double Attack? Seems much higher for me (like 1 in 5 proc as Double Attack). I've always found Double Attack procs to be more beneficial than Dual-Wield for the reason that you're getting two attacks for something like 236 delay which is better than two attacks for 236x2 delay - Dual Wield bonus. However, you get that same bonus when Dual-Wielding the Joyuese in this case, however moving on to my next point.

Berserk and the Passive Attack Trait are biggies to me. I get almost 50 damage (average is about 44/45) now with the Gluttony Sword without much atk on low IT and VTs. Using berserk, meatkabobs, and offensive gear would shoot the damage of a swing much higher. Using meatkabobs, berserk, and offensive gear would generally up the normal swing damage to much higher levels. Combine that with the Joyuese and that's a lot of swings for some decent damage. NIN sub doesn't have Berserk and the Passive Attack trait which means potentially lower damage hits on average.

However, NIN sub does have a sound argument in that WS damage might be higher overall because of accumulation of TP and speed of swings.

On the other hand, WS is affected by ATK damage by quite a bit and not breaking the intial atk/mob def barrier might stifle WS damage even with a high DMG sword. That's were Berserk wins out. You also add in the fact that Double Attack can proc multiple times (as opposed to NIN sub being only once, and as I recall, I don't remember it being guaranteed) within a WS and you can potentially have some crazy damage on your hands for those.

However, I'm really going on assumptions here. I really would need to test this to see how it works out.

[imac2much]

Yeah I won't be able to test this for a while, at least until I get a valid parser. Also I kinda wanna get that AA BCNM earring first (supponami or whatever) since it would increase my damage noticeably IMO.

I agree that the more ATK the better. However you only have berserk on 3/5 of the time, remember that as well. /NIN's extra hit on WS *is* guaranteed, and you can still double attack on the last hit of the WS since it uses the Joyeuse for that hit I believe.

After a lot of testing on some Japanese forums, it was resolved to be around 12%. Here is a quote from the ever-knowledgeable Apple Pie:

According to our research, it is around 10%. There's also a guy having done an experiment of DA and TA here (http://pamama.hp.infoseek.co.jp/FF11kensyou/kensyou7-7.html) (Japanese). He concludes it is from 10.49% to 12.16%."

It's bad to conclude a certain amount of procs by just plain observation, since you will notice more double attacks than regular hits mainly because they are just more *noticeable*, in my opinion. I also sat down with a dainslaif and /war and tried this, and I did indeed DA only about 10-15% of the time (which is why I said 12.5%).

But anyway, my testing is bad too since I didn't have a huge sample. This is why I want to try a parser. I'll use both joyeuse with /war and company+joyeuse with /nin if I can, since you have valid arguments.

Remember that Gluttony has above average damage but above average delay as well. Joyeuse has below average damage and below average delay, so you can't really compare them too well, IMO.

Hopefully I'll be able to find a parser in the next few weeks, because I'd love to try this out sometime... well after I buy some snipers :sweat:

[Lyonesse]

Is it guaranteed? I've never noticed it to be guaranteed on PLD or WAR when subbed. I'll have to give that a go when I'm on next. If the Joyeuse can proc on the extra hit from the Dual-Wield then wouldn't it be able to proc on multi-hit WS normally? I mean multiple procs during a WS is fairly rare for non-WARs but if the Joyuese can proc Double Attack during a WS without the Double Attack trait (by the fact that Joyuese is the primary weapon as opposed to the sub-weapon), then it'd make a PLD/WAR DD's WS much stronger no?

I saw that post (and read it) about Double/Triple Attack back when it was first posted. It isn't as concrete as I had hoped. There's just too many factors involved to make a fair judgement unless a wide scope of data is collected. For me, even though it is based on observation, I've noticed my proc rate closer to 1 in 5 and maybe 1 in 6 for Double Attack making it closer to 15-20%. I really haven't done any sort of testing on it but I guess I could track it next time I play for a long session. I might also test if CHR has any profound effects on Job Traits since I've always theorized that CHR has an effect for classes that aren't BST and BRD.

I've always considered the fact that the Double Attack feature of the Joyeuse makes up for the lower damage and delay since it procs often to be more than enough for comparison to the Gluttony when you break it down to normal swings =D.

[imac2much]

Hehe, once again some good arguments. Lemme quote you a few times so I can address parts of your post.

Originally posted by Lyonesse
Is it guaranteed? I've never noticed it to be guaranteed on PLD or WAR when subbed. I'll have to give that a go when I'm on next. If the Joyeuse can proc on the extra hit from the Dual-Wield then wouldn't it be able to proc on multi-hit WS normally? I mean multiple procs during a WS is fairly rare for non-WARs but if the Joyuese can proc Double Attack during a WS without the Double Attack trait (by the fact that Joyuese is the primary weapon as opposed to the sub-weapon), then it'd make a PLD/WAR DD's WS much stronger no?
The extra hit for dual wield in a WS seems to be guaranteed. I never miss it on easy stuff (that can't really evade), which is easy to tell by checking the TP return.

One thing I noticed... I don't think you can double attack more than ONE time in a WS. Joyeuse has a 50% double attack proc rate, so with a 4 hit WS like vorpal blade, it should, on average, proc twice for 6 hits. However, according to my TP returns, I never see this happen, it is always 4-5 hits. So maybe there is a limit on how many times DA can occur in a WS.

I'll have to test /NIN some more and see how often , if at all, Joyeuse's DA takes effect in a WS if I have it in offhand.

Even if /NIN doesn't have a chance of double attacking in WS, the WS should still be stronger due to the higher base damage of company sword (56 as opposed to Joyeuse's 35).


I've always considered the fact that the Double Attack feature of the Joyeuse makes up for the lower damage and delay since it procs often to be more than enough for comparison to the Gluttony when you break it down to normal swings =D.

Sort of but not really. Remember that defense and vit need to be subtracted from every hit. This is why scythes do more damage over time than daggers even if a dagger's damage:delay ratio is higher. Daggers also get TP much faster since there is a minimum amount of TP you gain per hit regardless of delay, and Dagger delay is generally less than that delay, meaning you get free TP.

Joyeuse is more for TP building IMO than damage dealing. Sure on flies it does great damage since it is piercing, but on the majority of enemies you fight at 74-75 (weapons, cockatrice, dragon, golem), piercing has no added bonus. In fact, against some monsters (KRT skeletons), it has a disadvantage.

[Apple Pie]

Can anyone direct me to a reliable parser? I saw one in the main forums once but people said that it had a trojan or keylogger in it so I paid it no heed. I am curious how my offensive PLD/NIN setup would compare to other DD's at this level.
I believe it's now safe to use it but I cannot guarantee that. I can only advise you to use it at your own risk.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~Spyle/FFXI/ffxi.html

The one I always use is FFrep (http://www.tt.rim.or.jp/~migigawa/ffrep/) as you may see some screen shots on RDM forum. Although it only works on Japanese FFXI client, there seems to be the translation project ongoing here (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33759). I hope they'll get it done soon.

Anyway, that's very interesting approach, Rugal. I look forward to seeing the results.

[Lyonesse]

I noticed while XPing that I wouldn't always get the extra hit while using Raging Axe (with WAR/NIN) although there's a really high chance as I recall. Might have to pester some WAR/NINs or do some testing myself.

I know for sure that you can DA multiple times with the Double Attack trait during a WS. It's happened with my PLD on the rare occasion (500 damage Swift Blade while XPing, Huzzah!) and it has happened on my WAR/THF (which I play Post-30 alongside WAR/MNK). I don't know if you can DA multiple times with the Joyeuse though.

If the Joyeuse can DA during a WS (with the rate of DA activations it has and in your main hand). I would think that would make up for the lower DMG based purely on the amount of DAs possible during all WS. Wish I was 70 and had the Joyeuse to test it though.

We went over the whole DMG/Delay thing before.
:thumbsup: however, I was thinking about the fact that you can get double attacks relatively often and that getting two attacks for 232 (or whatever delay the Joyeuse is) and the added ATK from WAR sub would eventually equal out for the higher damage Company Sword.

I'll respond some more later, back to class.

[imac2much]

With the available information, I cannot lean toward one way or another, though personally I just enjoy PLD/NIN more than /WAR. Also, if you ever get aggro (remember you will be DD, you don't want aggro :p) at least you have utsusemi ichi and ni to take care of yourself until the real tank gets aggro back.

Anyways, I'll try testing both when I can sometime. Theories and speculation can only get us so far, now it's time for the actual hard testing... although like I said I'm not exactly sure when I can do it. :sweat:

[Ziguld]

was Savage just to make Light. Originally the chain was Savage -> Decimation and after a while it became Decimation -> Savage which kinda ruffled some feathers.

Generally when I go into 'attacker' mode I like to keep around 30ish acc and dump the rest of open slots into str. Tends to work better since you can only have so much +Acc before it hits diminishing returns

[Lyonesse]

You better hop to it imac. Although I might end up doing it myself when I get there.

Oh, and you know what's funny? I heard of a PLD that got charmed on my server who was in attack mode while in Dynamis. He apparently tagged another PLD with a Spinning Slash for 900 points of damage. Pretty funny stuff , too bad there weren't pictures of it. (I'm also going on hearsay)